A (2:55)

Seinfeld talks about how he kind of just always has to be a bit of. I mean, just a lot of comedians, they're always a little bit disappointed about the world. They're a little bit like, there's, like, a dissatisfaction that kind of drives good comedy.

B (3:11)

Yes. And there's also judgmental. To be funny, it helps to be really judgmental. It doesn't make you a good person. You understand, being judgmental is an awful quality to have. And so I try to hide all that stuff. But all those strong attitudes, being judgmental, I have a strong opinion about everything you're doing. And so that's funny. It doesn't make for a good person.

A (3:34)

That's so funny. Because I knew that and it made. This morning, prepping for the podcast, I was just like, oh, it's going to be judging me for.

B (3:41)

It's all fun, Right? You got to do it.

A (3:46)

Now. How does character intersect with comedy?

B (3:50)

So all good comedy comes from character, as opposed to someone saying something silly or as opposed to the joke. If a character's trying to be funny, that's not going to. It's never funny. It's always cringy. If a character says something to try to make you laugh, it's not funny. But if the character. If it's coming from their ignorance or their stupidity or their naivete, whatever, then you can have them say funny things. They're not trying to be funny. Your character's goal should never be to make the audience laugh. The character's goal should be to say something truthful from their own perspective.

A (4:27)

Okay.

B (4:27)

Archie Bunker was not trying to make anyone laugh. He was just a bigot. That's why it was funny.

A (4:36)

So it's. They're funny. They're not trying to be funny is the big thing.

B (4:41)

Larry David, when Larry David from Curb. He's not trying to make you laugh. I'm just telling you my opinions. These are my thoughts. I'm just being truthful to you. Right? He's not trying to make you laugh. No, he's just giving you his opinion, which he shouldn't be giving. He's literally verbalizing his very extreme thoughts, his very judgmental thoughts. He has an opinion on everything. He has an opinion on what kind of gift you should bring someone. He has an opinion on how much you should tip someone at a pickup counter, at a take home counter. You don't tip at anything. But they're not delivering. You're picking it up at yourself. You don't give a tip. You give a tip to a waiter. I don't know if that was ever in his show or not, but that sounds like something he would say.

A (5:23)

And then as you're thinking about characters, how deliberate are you in terms of setting up the strong attitudes of different characters?

B (5:31)

If we're writing an original pilot or something, as opposed to a character in an episode that already exists? When we're writing original characters, we always think of them. We're attracted to characters who enter the room. Who are the storm that enter the room. The person who enters the room who immediately changes the energy, who is the tornado who enters the room. There are people like that. The minute they walk in, they can't keep their mouth shut. And everyone, the energy changes. And so we're always attracted to assholes.

A (5:59)

Assholes. Okay? So the word that came to mind for me was loud, but that doesn't seem right.

B (6:03)

Yeah, but it's not just loud, but it's also someone who cannot hold their opinion. You cannot hold their tongue. I have to tell you, you're wrong. That's a funny person.

A (6:12)

That's been the most surprising thing to me hearing from you is that the story is really the core thing. And then the humor's layered on top of it 100%.

B (6:22)

And so over the years, I've turned into, I think, 50, 50 story person, half joke person. I mean, you know, the funny thing about stand. Like, the thing is, okay, take stand ups. Stand up comedy is great, but it's just jokes. It's just joke, joke, joke, joke, joke. And then you can laugh your ass off and then you go home. But if you ask someone after seeing a great comedian like, hey, what was your favorite joke? Like they will have a hard time remembering. You know, you don't really remember it. And so I think comedy hits you in the head and drama hits you in the heart. And if you really want someone to feel something after they watch or read your work or whatever, you have to hit them in the heart because comedy is almost disposable. It's like empty calories. And so you really have to mix the two, drama and comedy. And that's where story comes in.

A (7:17)

The sitcom feels like some kind of a major innovation in terms of entertainment. And I don't have the words to describe it, so maybe you can kind of fill in the holes there. But it does feel like kind of a unique 20th century invention.

B (7:29)

Yeah. And to me, it saddens me that it's really dying out.

A (7:33)

Really.

B (7:35)

They're not making multi cameras anymore. Very few on these streamers. They're making less and less single camera sitcoms, but which are good, but it's its own thing. So like talking about Cheers or Mary Tyler Moore, all these classic shows, there's a skill set that you need to have to make these multi camera shows. And because they're making less and less, it'll go away. Because you don't have the people my age doing it anymore. I grew up in it.

A (8:08)

And when I watch a show like Friends or the Office, what percentage of that you think is scripted?

B (8:13)

Okay, so Friends is a good example. That's multi camera. Office is a single camera show.

A (8:16)

Okay.

B (8:17)

All of it is scripted. You may, for both, there may be moments when if there's time you let the actors improv a little bit, a couple lines here and there. But it's not like you would just ever let the actors walk on set. Okay. Just start talking, say funny things. Go. Just go, you guys go. We'll just like. That would be garbage. That'd be terrible. No one's gonna want to watch that.

A (8:37)

And then the other thing that seems unique about the sitcom too is that you can kind of. The characters can kind of never change or they can change and then that creates a different set of constraints.

B (8:50)

Yeah. So that's the thing. That's why these shows have a lifespan. So you have a sitcom and the characters from the beginning of the episode to the end, they're going to change a little bit. Just a little bit. They're gonna be slight that not necessarily not gonna learn a lesson, but they're gonna be slightly different or else a story's a journey. Why did you take the character on a journey if they're not gonna be changed somehow in a small way? And when you do a sitcom, the character's changed, but by the beginning of the next episode they have amnesia. They gotta make the same mistake again.

A (9:19)

Well, that's what I love about Peter Griffin. Yeah, like Peter Griffin. One of my favorite YouTube clips to watch is Peter Griffin talking like a pompous rich guy for like eight minutes or whatever. And it's like him in three episodes where he's just a ridiculous, over the top smart Peter Gr. But like, we all know that Peter Griffin is normally an idiot. And that's what I think is so funny that he kind of always comes back to being Peter Griffin. But then you can just like warp Peter Griffin however you want for one episode.

B (9:47)

And that's an extreme example because that show really is a cartoon. I mean, it's very. I mean, someone. He can get his head blown off in an episode and then he's back to normal.

A (9:56)

I mean, I guess like what I'm thinking about, maybe I'm completely wrong. Like, people just go out to dinner and something funny happens. Or like, man, we could kind of like recreate something like that, dramatize it for the TV show.

B (10:08)

Often that happens. Well, most writers rooms start the first half hour or even an hour. We're sitting around a table and we're just bullshitting. We're just chatting. And to someone else it might look like we're just wasting time. And to some degree we are. But we're also waiting for someone to say something, tell a funny story about what happened over the weekend, an argument they had with their spouse or whatever. And then you go, okay. That we can put into a show. Yeah, there's a lot of that goes on. I was on a show. We never did this. It was a show. I did a show called Tacoma FD and the. I don't think it's. But the showrunner was also one of the actors and he would tell these stories. He goes, I had a sex dream about my best friend. Like, wait, what? It was a best friend for years and years. Another dude, another guy. And he's telling me about this sex dream. I go, we have to put that in an episode. Like, we have to do that with where he was a very vivid sex dream with his friend. I go, that's so, so wonderful. We never wound up doing it. But that's a story you could turn into an episode.

A (11:14)

Okay, I Want to get more into character. So when you said that you're very intentional about character and you're writing, how explicit are you with the character's personalities, their goals, their motivations, stuff like that?

B (11:26)

Often we have a character document that we'll fill out. We give a lot of thought. We want to know, does this character even things that you wouldn't necessarily put into that won't even make it to the script, but you'll think about it. Does this character smoke marijuana? What do they think? What's their stance on legalized marijuana? So you're not just saying, are they conservative or are they liberal? You want to know. You're asking questions about them. And the more contradictions you can dig up, the better. But the contradictions have to be consistent with the character. Can't unravel the character. So which is always one of the hardest things for me to do, how do I give them interesting contradictions that don't tear them apart, but make them real, feel real? Here's an example. I post a lot on social media, and so I get trolls. And so during the writers strike, I was talking about the writers strike, and some guy posted a meme from Goodfellows, and it was Ray Liotta laughing hysterically. And the line underneath it said, oh, you think we care about Hollywood? You're out of your mind. It was something about how the point of this guy's meme was that he didn't care at all about Hollywood because it was during the writer's strike. We don't give a shit about you, but he was using a meme from a classic movie to express how he felt. The guy was clearly a fan of Goodfellas and Hollywood, and he's using this meme to tell me he doesn't care about Hollywood. That, to me, is a very consistent contradiction. It's like he doesn't see his blind spot, but you don't want to unravel it. You can't go too far, because then you have a character that doesn't make any sense. But to me, that was just a blind spot is a good way to say it. The guy just had a blind spot. He hated us. He hated Hollywood, but he also loved us, you know?

A (13:12)

Yeah. One of the things that you said that I think is funny is no one likes an adorkable main character.

B (13:20)

Yeah. And that goes back into adorkable is a character who's trying to is, look how cute I am. It's almost like it's adjacent to, look how funny I am. Aren't I interesting? Aren't I cute? I'm adorkable. It's just so when I'm writing stories, it's never a lot of my book is personal essays. So it's stories about me. I'm the lead, right? I'm the lead of my own story. And so it's never, look how cute I am, look how interesting I am. It's always, look how human I am. And so I'm writing from my weaknesses, I'm writing from my mistakes and apologies. It's never, look how cute I am. I think it's so off putting. And I see that a lot in the genre of memoir. I see it, I'm like, you're doing it wrong. You're trying to win me over. Don't try to win me over. Just be truthful. Then I'll be won over.

A (14:16)

And it seems like because you're saying that because we have such a inclination towards pride and ego, we have to kind of fight that by focusing on our weaknesses and the human stuff.

B (14:28)

Yeah, well, all good stories come from weaknesses. Characters being weak, the vulnerability. You don't write about a character's strengths, you write about their weaknesses. It's easy to forget that when you're writing about yourself. It's really easy to forget that because you want people to like you. So you're like, how interesting I am. That's not what people respond to when they read. They want to read, look how human you are. And that's how you win them over.

A (14:55)

So as you were writing that more personal stuff, how do you kind of mine your own life for those sort of weaknesses stories? Because actually, usually those are the things we kind of gloss over, right?

B (15:09)

I keep two lists on my phone. I got a list of my weaknesses, all my weaknesses. I just write them down. You know, literally, I'm judgmental, I'm anxious, whatever, write them down. And then I have another list of just memories that I want to write about. Interesting. And I usually just pair them up. Okay, so this memory, this memory is really about being judgmental, you know, and then that's how I'll write that story. I feel like the book is a collection of apologies and confessions. And that's what people respond to. And people have said to me because I perform it as well. I perform it as a one man show and I travel with Ed on the road. And afterwards, when I first started doing this, people would come up to me and they'd say, you're so brave to be saying this in front of a room. Full of strangers. And I thought it would be a lot braver for me to get up there, tell people I'm a writer and give them a shitty show. Then people would say, oh, this guy thinks he's a writer. You know what I'm saying? That would be brave, me going up there and giving you and just opening my heart and telling how I feel and just being honest. I'm just verbalizing what we're all feeling. I'm just the one saying it. So I don't feel any wor. I don't feel like I'm. I'm being judged as a person. I feel like I don't want to be judged as a writer.

A (16:30)

Yeah, because, you know, as I was, as I was reading Chapters your book, one of the things I felt is like, oh, wow, he's also like that.

B (16:40)

Yeah.

A (16:40)

You know, like I kind of thought I was the only one. And I think sometimes you look at other people and you're like, man, they got it all together. And then you're like inside and you're like, no, you know, I'm like this. I'm like this. And somebody else says something that's maybe not exactly what you're thinking, but it's like, wow, they're kind of confessing that and somehow voicing it makes it a little easier to work through that thing.

B (16:59)

But that's the thing. It's like I say this. I was reluctant to write in this genre memoir because it feels very self important. My memoir, look how interesting I'm already. I don't even like that. And so when I'm writing that way, I'm always feeling like, well, these details are mine, but the stories are ours. You feel the same way I do. Sure, the specifics are from my life, but you feel the same way. We all do.

A (17:26)

One of the things you do is you take very, very specific moments from your life and what are some of the ways that you thought about making it funny? And maybe we can even start with. As you looked at David Sedaris work, what did you pick up on that he does so well?

B (17:41)

It's so interesting because I love his work. When I first started this project, I was like, I just want to do what he does. I love his writing. And so at the time I'd listened to a bunch of his audiobooks because I had a long commute. And then I thought, I'm going to go buy his paperbacks and read them because it's a different experience. So I bought all his books and I go and I'm thinking, how hard is this going to be? Because I'm already a TV writer. I know how to write. This is going to be easy. So I'm reading his first book, and I'm halfway through the first chapter. I'm like, where is he going with this? I don't even know what he's doing. And I get to the end of that first chapter story, and it was so beautifully written. The payoff was so perfect, I almost threw the book across the room. I was like, this is going to be so much harder than I thought. And then I just started reading all of his work multiple. Like, first just to enjoy it, then two, three, four times to study it, see what I can pick up. And then I started writing it myself and my own stories. And the problem with being a TV writer is that I'm a mimic. My job is to pick up the voice of the characters of the show or the voice of the showrunner. It's never my voice. It's about the voice of the characters. This is how Hank Hill talks. And so I'm a good mimic, you know, and I can make, you know, dang it, Bobby. Like, when we're in the room, we literally do the line, we talk like him, you know, to make sure it sounds right. Oh, absolutely.

A (19:04)

Do that again. Dang it, Bobby.

B (19:06)

Dang it, Bobby. You know, or you know, dad, that's Bobby Hill.

A (19:10)

So that's how you set up the.

B (19:11)

That's often how you'll pitch a joke is in the character's voice to make sure it sounds right.

A (19:16)

That's so obvious in retrospect, but that's very surprising.

B (19:18)

And it's also funny to do that on a show where the star is in the room, the writer's room. So Marc Maron was one of the writers on Marin, and I used to imitate him, and he'd sometimes say, that's not how I talk, Jim. I don't talk like that. I'm going, you absolutely talk like that. And everyone's like, yep, you talk like that. And he's like, really? You know, I go, yeah, you say the word engage if I get a nickel every time. You said engage. You know, I do. Yeah. And so there are times, you know, you imitate them, and that's how you get the character, is that you make fun of them, you know, and so you're making fun of them to their face, and they're okay with it because this is how you make a TV show. Wow. Yeah. But. So when I was doing this for my book, I Found my. When I was writing the first couple stories, I found that I was subconsciously imitating David Sedaris. I found I was doing his voice. I didn't realize it until I read the first stories fresh two weeks later or whatever. And I'm like, this felt like. It felt like I was just doing a cheap imitation of him. It felt like, this isn't him. This is someone trying to be him. And I was like, oh, no. I really started a spiral. I was like, what do I do now? And then I. Well, I have to find my own voice. And then I was like, yeah, but who am I to tell people that my voice is worth hearing? Who am I? I'm just a TV writer. Like, why would. I'm not that. Like, really? I started spiraling. And then I was also like, but we know David Sedaris is the gold standard. We know what he's doing works. Who am I to tell him it should be any other way? Like, really? And then I really had long conversations with people about art and what art is supposed to be and how to make art. Because as a TV writer, I don't think any of us, Any of my colleagues think we make art. It's not what we do. We don't even talk about, like, that.

A (21:09)

Wait, that's weird. That's surprising, because I would say that most people who watch it would say it's totally art.

B (21:15)

Right? Maybe you could say it's craft. I don't think you're gonna watch a sitcom and say, that's art. Maybe you'll say it's craft. But at the end of the day, we are selling toilet paper. We have an act break, and we have commercials. Time to sell toilet paper, guys. You know, that's how we thought. That's how we look at it.

A (21:31)

And pharmaceutical drugs.

B (21:32)

Yeah, yeah. Boner pills. But we don't look at it like art. And so I've never had that thought in my head where I was making art until I wanted to write this book. And that was my aspiration. Whether or not it succeeds, you get to decide. But that was my aspiration.

A (21:48)

Okay? So Picasso said, when art critics get together, they talk about form and structure and meaning. When artists get together, they talk about where you can buy cheap turpentine. And the point is that the people on the outside talk about all these, like, highfalutin things, but the people on the inside are just super practical.

B (22:05)

Yeah.

A (22:06)

Is that sort of what you're saying here?

B (22:08)

It's not what I'm saying, but I agree with that thought for sure. Like, I remember when I was in high school, you'd read, you know, whatever, a book, a classic piece of literature, short story, whatever. And then the teacher would make you talk about theme and motifs. And I remember thinking, this is bullshit. There's no way the writer was giving any them thought to the themes of the. I just thought it was bullshit. And then as I became a writer, I realized theme comes out naturally because you are talking about one, you're examining the story. This is a story about memory and memories. You're examining memories from all these different angles. So naturally, the themes of memories are going to appear because you're doing your job as a writer. It's not like we go into it trying to write themes. The themes are the result of good writing. It has to be there or else you're not writing well.

A (22:57)

So then on that note, when you're kind of sculpting a story, and I like that analogy because to sculpt is to carve to cut. When you're doing that, how much are you thinking about the main themes in that part of the story?

B (23:09)

It comes up. So when you're writing a sitcom, each episode is about, okay, this episode is about forgiveness. This episode is about. Or judgment. This one's about love or whatever. If you're doing it, my partner and I talk about this. If you're writing it the right way, you'll find yourself using the same words over and over again. Words, you're repeating words. If it's about forgiveness, you're using the word forgive a lot. Or apology, you're using the. And so what happens is at the end of our first draft, or whatever draft you wind up going through and say, okay. It's almost like a drinking game. We've said forgive too many times here. We have to come up with synonyms or find other ways to say this without saying it so it's not so obvious. And so if you're doing it right, you're going to repeat a lot of the words and you have to disguise it. And that's the theme.

A (24:01)

Yeah. So then when do you have like a series of things that happened versus, like, a story?

B (24:07)

Right. Good question. So the problem I see with new writers often is they have shit happening. So shit happening is not a story. They have a lot of shit that's happening in this script or story. When your aunt says, oh, my God, I have the funniest story for you. I was at the supermarket, I wanted to buy bananas, but they didn't have any bananas. They Were bruised. I didn't want. So then I wanted. I got oranges, but the oranges didn't. They didn't look like. They looked like oranges. Like. Shut up. You're telling me shit that happens.

A (24:35)

Stop talking.

B (24:36)

Right. You're just giving me all the shit that's happening. That's not a story. So a lot of times writers get so obsessed with plot, which is shit happening. Plot is shit happening.

A (24:47)

What's a story?

B (24:48)

A story is the emotional underpinning underneath it. So the plot is what's the story about? And the emotional underpinning is what's this story really about? This story is about redemption.

A (25:00)

That deeper stuff.

B (25:01)

Yeah. You have to have it. And often with new writers, you don't see that. You just see the plot, which is shit happening.

A (25:09)

What are they missing?

B (25:11)

The emotional. The emotional.

A (25:12)

But, like, why is that happening?

B (25:15)

It's easy not to do that. It's easy to. Oh, I got a great idea for a scene. And maybe you do. Maybe you have a really funny exchange or a great visual scene. You might. But you can't just string it together. You can't have a bunch of scenes that are visually interesting strung together and expect anyone to sustain interest. You have to have the deeper part or else it gets boring.

A (25:37)

Sorry, what's your partner's name?

B (25:38)

His name is Sievert.

A (25:39)

Sievert.

B (25:39)

Sievert Glerum. Yeah, he's got a Norwegian name.

A (25:42)

Sievert Glerum. What a cool name. Okay, so when you're working with Sievert, what do you do tactically to make sure that you have that deeper part of the story?

B (25:53)

Well, that part comes out when we break a story. So when we're breaking the breaking stories is when we're in the writer's room, we have a big whiteboard, and we divide into Act 1, Act 2, Act 3. We figure out what all the main points are. What's the first act break, what's the second act break, what's the top of all these moments have to be figured out. And as you're doing that, you're also figuring out the deeper meaning of the story. So you don't go off writing until.

A (26:14)

The story's broken and tie together, breaking the story to the deeper meaning.

B (26:20)

Well, when you're breaking the story, that's when you're also figuring out what it's really about on a deeper level.

A (26:26)

So you're really asking that, what is this about?

B (26:28)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You're literally saying those words, what's this about? And this is. This is so obvious. People miss this all the time. So if you'll watch a great movie, let me give you an example. So, like Ferris Bueller's Day Off. I love that movie. So good. If I say, what's that movie about? A lot of people would say, oh, this is about two friends playing hooky. Then they go to the Chicago Cubs game, then they dance in a parade, they steal a car. You know, a lot of shit happens in this movie. I go, that's not what the movie's about, though. This movie is about a best friend trying to save his other his friend's life. It's about Ferris Bueller trying to save Cameron's life. Because he says it, and this is not a mystery. They say it like the second scene of the movie. Ferris turns to the camera and he says. He calls up his friend Cameron, hey, I'm playing hooky. Come with me today. I'm not doing that, Ferris. No, no, no. I'm stuck in bed. I'm wheezing, I'm a hypochondriac. I don't feel good. I'm not going with you, Ferris. You are coming with me. I'm coming to pick you up. Shut up. Then he turns to the camera and he goes, this is my best friend, Cameron. Next year we're going off to college, we're going to go our separate ways. I'm never going to see him again. He's going to wind up marrying the first girl he has sex with and she's going to walk all over him. Because you can't respect someone who doesn't respect themselves. My plan here is I'm going to take a day off school and I'm going to show my best friend, show him how to live. I have 24 hours to show him how to live. And if I can't do that, his life is going to go down the drain. This is literally explained to the viewer in the second scene of the movie. It's not a mystery. We tell the viewer what the movie's about. On a deeper level, this is about a best friend trying to save his friend's life.

A (28:05)

And wait, the other thing that's key here is the stakes, right?

B (28:09)

That's the stakes. The stakes are.

A (28:10)

The stakes is so key.

B (28:12)

Right? It's not about getting a day off of school. The stakes are saving my friend's life. Yeah, the higher the stakes, the more interesting the story.

A (28:20)

But I think it's easy to hear that and think, okay, I'm gonna write a story that we're gonna be on an airplane 40,000ft high, both engines are gonna fail. Then what's gonna happen is the wing is gonna fall off and we're gonna be tail spinning. But I think that what we see all the time is that stakes can be really high with super mundane things like that.

B (28:41)

Well, here's another example of something like that. Like these end of the world movies. The meteor is gonna come, it's gonna wipe out humanity. Right. Those are high stakes. The fate of humanity. But that's not what the movie's about. In that movie, it's always about the father has to make good with his estranged daughter before the end of the world. That's what we're rooting for, the father and daughter to make up, to find a way to get along before the meteor wipes out humanity.

A (29:06)

I mean, Interstellar is similar, right? Because the part where the first time I watched I was crying so much that I was actually in pain is when Matthew McConaughey sees his daughter. And now they're a different age or something. And it's actually about father, daughter together much more than the sort of cosmic scale of space and time.

B (29:25)

Imagine if that storyline didn't have that. You'd be, ah, so what? It would have been a big so what? It would have been shit happening. That's the story that gets people to cry.

A (29:34)

It's funny that we both used family stories.

B (29:37)

Yeah. Family stakes are usually the highest with family and close friends or spouses or whatever. That's why you have so many family comedies as opposed to office comedies. But then the office becomes a surrogate family.

A (29:52)

Gotta keep rolling with that. That's interesting.

B (29:54)

Oh, well, yeah. I mean, office comedies are a little harder to write. And I wrote on one, Just shoot me. That was my first job. But intentionally there was a father daughter dynamic in that. George Siegel and Laura San Giacomo, they played father and daughter. And you get a lot of stories from that, from that dynamic.

A (30:11)

So how do you think about creating.

B (30:12)

Stakes every time you write? I ask myself, okay, what happens if the hero doesn't get what they want? What's the stakes? And if the answer is like, in one of these stories I do the ghoul, what happens if I can't figure out a way to connect with my daughter? What happens? That's a high stakes story. So the story originally wrote, it formed out of me. My neighbor died and he was a weird dude.

A (30:39)

This is in real life.

B (30:40)

This is in real life. And so I turned it into a story. I had a weird neighbor, lived two houses down, and he was so creepy. And he had this ghoulishness about him.

A (30:48)

What does ghoulish mean?

B (30:49)

Ghoulish. He was like. He looked like a human whisper. He looked like he was 4,000 years old. I would call him Undead Fred. Not to his face, but because I didn't have the courage to do it to his face. But he was, you know, I was like, how long has this guy been dead? And I said, in this story, I said, like, the guy's gotta have a well in his bedroom. There's got to be someone stuck in a well instead of his bedroom. He was that kind of creepy guy. And then when he died, he had no family, so the house was vacant. And then we one day poked around his house, and that's when we discovered that he was actually a hoarder. And so he was sitting on this horrible secret, which was. He was a hoarder. And so he was just. He was a guy in pain and poking around his house. Okay, the story is of limited interest. If I could tell. If that's the story I tell. Okay, so what? So what? I poked around his house. So how does it affect me? How did it affect me? And in that story, as I tell it, I walked into the house. I walked into the house. At first, my daughter, who's home from art school, said, hey, do you want to go check out the inside of that house? And I said, no. God, it's so gross. No. No. And I was very judgmental at first. No. And I could feel her as I said it. I could feel her pull away. And I knew I made a mistake because she's always been interested in weird things. And I didn't humor her. I kind of just made her feel weird for having an interest in this. It was such a mistake. A few days later, I came home from a run. I stopped by my neighbor Michelle's house to say hello. And she said the same thing. Hey, you want to go check out that creepy house? And this time I said yes, mostly because I wanted to correct myself from how I responded to my daughter. So we kind of broke into the house, and we're poking around. And the walls were covered in a brownish yellowish film that was tacky to the touch. This is from my story. This undoubtedly was caused by all the cigarettes Undead Fred smoked, sucking life from them like a virgin's neck. The floor beneath her feet was squishy. And I just described the whole disgustingness of the house. It was awful. And as I left the house, I was like, oh, God, I really was shaken by how awful it was in there. And then when she came out, my neighbor came out, Michelle. I half expected her to vomit. And instead she said, roxy should go inside. She'd love this. That's my daughter. And of all the things I saw that day, hearing her say those words was the most shocking. That she understood my own daughter better than I did. And it hit me so hard. And I write about then that story. And so now we have a story. This story is not about the ghoul, the guy who lived in the house two houses down. The story is about me, and it's about judgment and how the judgment hurts us and what we do with it.

A (33:37)

And father, daughter.

B (33:38)

Yeah, and father daughter stakes. Right.

A (33:41)

Well, there's another thing there, too, of I thought this person was like this, and they were actually like that.

B (33:48)

And that's exactly right. The story opens that way. It was about how we don't know the people closest to us physically. Our neighbors and also the people in our family. How. I don't know. How we don't know each other, how we think we do. And so it's a story about learning, you know, just realizing that awful. That awful discovery.

A (34:08)

That description of his room.

B (34:11)

Yeah. Oh, I have it all memorized because I perform it. So, yeah, I know it.

A (34:15)

Right. How do you work on that to get that description out? And really, it's vivid. I mean, I just. I see it vividly. Like, I could. You said it one time. And like, I remember that. The tacky yellow walls, cigarette smoke. Like you said one time, we could end this right now, create the scene. Like, get the video camera. I could set up the shot.

B (34:35)

Yeah. That comes from being a TV writer, I think. So when I'm writing stories, I write very visually. I'm always thinking about, this is how I differ. My writing became a little different from David Sedaris as I discovered my own voice. I was like, let's just lean into what I know how to do, which is write tv. And so when you're writing tv, you're always asking yourself, okay, what are we watching in this scene? Yes, the characters are talking about something, but what are we literally watching? We have cameras on them. It's not a book. They got to be doing something. Are they on a roller coaster? What are they doing? And so as I'm writing, I'm very visual. And so I think you could read these stories in the book. And you say, okay, that's an episode of tv. That could be a movie, that longer story, because you have to be visual. That's how I like to write.

A (35:20)

What do you need to do to write visually?

B (35:23)

Well, I describe the scene. I don't describe the scene anymore. I don't give it any more description than I feel is necessary. So I don't describe every room we walk into. I only describe. I only give details if I think it's necessary for the story.

A (35:35)

Well, the cigarette smoke thing is very vivid because it tells you a lot about this guy. Like, he was smoking cigarettes inside in a room so much that, like, you can see it with the yellow on the wall. And then how that kind of comes together with him being a hoarder and, like, this weird, creepy guy. Like, dude, you can't even go outside and, like, smoke a cigarette on the sidewalk. You gotta do it inside.

B (35:54)

He had cigarettes. That's what I describe it. His constant and only companion was a lit cigarette with a long ash that was afraid to let go because of what might happen next. Spooky is how I would describe Undead Fred. And so, yeah, that was his characteristic. He always had his cigarette, and so the walls bled nicotine. But I wouldn't describe. He had other attributes that I didn't put in the story because they don't help this. They don't help you figure out who he is. Like, I don't. You don't need to know the color of his hair, right?

A (36:24)

Definitely curly hair, though.

B (36:26)

No, no, that's me. No, but you don't need to know yet. You know, he had, like, jet black hair.

A (36:31)

Okay, interesting. When you're writing for a solo show, that's performance.

B (36:38)

Yeah.

A (36:38)

How's that kind of writing different?

B (36:40)

And so I met my wife. She was an actor on Just Shoot Me. That's how I met her guest star. And so we've been together ever since. And then when I decided to perform this, you know, because David Sedaris, he reads his pieces and he's wonderful. He's this character. He comes on stage and you just love this guy because he's so eccentric. Sometimes he wears a dress. I mean, he's just so interesting, right? He's such a character. But I'm not a character that way. So I can't come on stage and just read. It doesn't work for me. It works for him, it doesn't work for me. So my wife directed me. She works with me a lot. How do we stage this? How do I live the moment? So I'm literally in the moment. So as I'm describing it to you, I'm seeing it for the first time. And so that Took a lot of.

A (37:27)

Wait, explain that as I'm describing it to you. I'm seeing it for the first time. That's a cool idea.

B (37:34)

So his hardwood floors were made feel like they give way. Then I realized that the floors were actually carpeting that were so worn, matted, and dirty, I mistook it for rotting wood. His kitchen countertops were covered in so much cigarette ash, rust, and rat shit, it was now part of the surface. The sink in his bathroom was filled with a brown puddle that looked like the last watering hole in the Serengeti where animals both drank out of and shat into. This is where he brushed his teeth. So I'm discovering it for the first time. I'm not reading it. I'm there with you.

A (38:11)

Okay, so this is the big thing to me that was different about that is the cadence.

B (38:16)

It's the cadence because I'm discovering it. I can't go fast. I'm there. Oh, my God. And all this is horrific.

A (38:27)

And do you write the cadence in the way that you write it, or is that like an emergent thing that you're doing with your wife? How does that work?

B (38:33)

I write the book because the book is meant to be read. I wanted to write a book. I didn't want to write a stage play or a TV show. I wanted to write a book. And so it just so happens that because I'm a TV writer, it flows naturally into the way I write. It's just I can't not do it because that's my training. It lends itself to being performed, but that was never its goal. Then I want to write a book. And then I was like, well, you should sell it as an audiobook, because a lot of people like audiobooks. So then we had to record that and I had to act out the audiobook. And fortunately, it lends itself to that. And then the stage show, the one man show, it lends itself to. But not everything does. And there are pieces in the book that I probably wouldn't perform because they're not really. They're not great on stage, but some are better than others.

A (39:17)

So as you think about, is it weird developing a character around yourself?

B (39:22)

Yeah, it is. And I have to think of myself, who is the character of me? And that became a process of discovery. And it became, as I'm writing this, I realized I'd write a story and I'd go, why would this character of me. Why would I have said this when I was 10 years old? Why would I have done that? And then I'd Write an answer. And I'd write. Start writing it out. And I go, no, that feels like the TV version of why I would have done it. What's the real version? And it's hard to know when you're writing a story when you're 10 years old. I don't really remember. And so I had to plug it in. I had to figure out, I was discovering why this kid would have said that or would have done that.

A (39:55)

What's TV version versus real version?

B (39:57)

The TV version, you know, the TV version is the shitty one. The sitcom Y version, you know when you watch, like, a facade. Like what?

A (40:03)

Like a facade, like superficial or.

B (40:05)

What are you saying? When you watch a bad sitcom and you go, I don't buy it. I don't buy it. And so that was part of my worry about writing my first book, was I know people, other writers, TV writers who wrote in this genre memoir. And I'd read their books and I'd go, eh. It felt like it took the notes. Like, when we're writing it for network television, we get notes. And you know what the notes are going to be every single time, you know? So the better you get at it, the more you learn to anticipate the notes. Because the notes, the studio, the network is going to give you the same notes. It's always the same notes. And it's always about protecting the character, and it's always about rounding off the edges. It's like, ugh. So when I wrote the book, I didn't want people to think it was written by a sitcom writer. I wanted people to think it was written just by an author. That's it.

A (40:54)

What's going on with TV networks? Why are they rounding out the edges on these characters?

B (40:58)

Broad appeal. I mean, that's just always the case. They don't want to turn anybody off. This is how it is on network now. As things have moved to streaming and cable, you get a little more liberty. They don't always take the edges off. Sometimes they do, though. Why? Because. Why? Because they got to give notes. This is how it works. You turn in a script, you turn in a script, your pilot script, whatever script, you turn it in, you worked on it for months, and then you email it to them. And then 10 minutes later, the assistant calls to that executive. Great, let's set up a notes call. How does next Thursday sound? Wait a minute. What do you mean, notes? The person hasn't read it yet. He or she hasn't even read it yet. How do we know there's notes? Oh, there's going to be notes. They have a problem with it, we have problems with it, but you haven't read it yet. That's just how it's always supposed to be. That's just how it is. Which is why I wanted to write a book. I wanted to write something without the notes.

A (41:54)

The premise there is really interesting. I kind of can't lose that idea of the character of Michael versus the person of Michael and the dislocation between those two things.

B (42:05)

The character of me is me dialed up by about 10%, just so you can see the obviousness, so you can see my flaws. A little easier to point it out and to make it funny, because that extreme attitude makes it funny.

A (42:18)

So what's one of the funnier parts in the.

B (42:21)

Well, you know, I'm very. I'm an anxious person. And I know I discovered just how anxious I was as I was writing it. I was like. Because, you know, like, I was saying, why would this character say that? Why would I do? And these patterns started to emerge. I'm like, oh, that little boy is really afraid. He's just nervous. And so often I come back to, oh, dude, you got anxiety. Like, I never thought about myself that way. I just thought it was. I'm just normal. No, no, you kind of have. You're pretty anxious. But that anxiety is actually fun to write about. I had a lot of idiosyncrasies growing up. Constantly licking my fingers was one of them. It was something I needed to do. If I was touching certain fabrics, like corduroy, there was something about that texture that made me winced to handle it. And dipping my fingers in my mouth made it slightly more bearable, even if it made me look like a moron. Picture a professional bowler wiggling his finger above a fan. That's what I looked like, only the fan was my tongue. And so I'm just writing about all these idiosyncrasies that are fun to make fun of. You say, pick up my pants. Pick up those pants. Okay. That's how I would do it, man.

A (43:28)

That's such a. Like, one of the things that I've really picked up on is just how zoomed in to reality you can get for things that are interesting, like, interesting premises, right? Like, sometimes you think of the premise. Go back to the space, right? Like, oh, this cosmic scale. Someone's going to try to go to Mars or something like that. But this is, like, so, so interesting. It's like, we all do these little things that either we hate. We're like, stop Doing that, David. Or it's like, you know, something to bite my nails. It's like, what the heck are you biting your nails for?

B (43:57)

Why are you eating yourself?

A (43:59)

What are you doing? You know, like, that's so. That's so weird. And, like, you know, that you look like a fool.

B (44:05)

Yeah.

A (44:05)

What are you doing? But, like, you can't stop. And then we're, like, at war with ourselves. Like, that's a cool premise, but that's, like, the smallest, most simple thing ever. But then it then ends up getting really big because it's like I'm anxious and, like, I have this. This. This. This excess energy, and I don't know what to do with it. And, like, man, like, I'm now at war with myself in all these ways. And, like, it's kind of making me hate myself. And it's like, what's going on there? But, like, that's the stuff of a good story.

B (44:38)

Writing specifics is how you make it universal. Yeah, that's what you got to do. I'm fascinated by all that stuff. I like these small character pieces. I'm much more interested in that than watching a superhero movie. Those are the stories I feel people want to hear.

A (44:53)

How do you think about villains?

B (44:55)

Well, that's the thing. I've spoken about this a little bit as well. The more interesting villains, Darth Vader. People love their Darth Vader. I don't think Darth Vader's a great villain. He's like, come to the dark side. Like, why, other than the magic trick that you do, what's fun about being on the dark side? It seems like a drag, other than you doing this with your hands, which the Jedis also do. So I don't know why your side is better than the Jedi side. It just doesn't interest me. But Lestat, like, the interview with a vampire. Oh, I get it now. The dark side is sexy. It's fun. Oh, yeah, yeah. He's a good villain because it's the devil that's the devil that's more fun. You know, the devil as a character, you know, is sexy, is enticing. And it just comes with a small downside of selling your soul, but other than that, it's all upside. You know what I'm saying? So that's what a good villain is to me.

A (45:52)

What about villains that are main characters? Like, how does that work? Because usually we think of there's the good guy and then there's the villain that's, like, opposed to the good guy. Obviously, I'm Painting with really broad. A really broad brush there. But sometimes, like, Breaking Bad is like this, right? Where, like, Walter White is like this villain, but then you kind of love the villain, and then, like, the family kind of turns against him. But then you're still kind of rooting for Walter White. Walk me through the dynamics of that.

B (46:19)

I'll give you another example. Walter Wright is a great example. Another one is Tony Soprano. He's a psychopath. He's a sociopath, at least. And so I don't think of Tony as a villain. I think of him as. Or even an anti hero. I think of him as a hero. He's just a hero who's just complicated. And so he does some awful things. He murders people. He's a sociopath. He's a mobster. You wouldn't want to be his friend. You'll watch him. But that'd be dangerous water to tread in. The first time we meet Tony Soprano, there's a way they laid out so that you're on his side from the beginning. And that is the very first time you meet him. He's in his psychiatrist's office, and he's fidgeting and he's nervous, and we know he's very nervous. He doesn't seem strong. He seems out of his element and uncomfortable. And then he confesses. He's saying he's having these dreams, he's having these anxiety attacks. We're learning about his weaknesses, and he's very likable. Then he goes home. He hasn't done anything yet in terms of mobster type. He goes home. What's the first thing we see in that pilot episode? He's got ducks in the pool, and he's built a ramp for the ducks and he's feeding the ducks. That's a very sweet thing for this person to do, is to let ducks live in the pool and build a ramp for them so they get in and out. It's very sweet. Then, as the story progresses, someone owes him money. And so he chases down that person who deserves to get a beating because that person's running away from their obligations, their debt, and he beats the shit out of them. And that's when we first learned that he's a mobster. And to be honest, those first few scenes, like, okay, we already like the guy, and what he's doing seems very reasonable. It's only later, as the show progresses, that he gets, you know, starts getting a little more deep, you know, you know, darker. But at that point, we're already. We're already in Love with the guy. Yeah.

A (48:11)

It's funny that you say that because there's a lot of people who are really extreme and powerful. Whatever. Like, I know a guy who's just a stone cold killer. Not in the literal sense, but, like, business wise. Like, do not get in this guy's way. This guy will go after you. Like, I've met his lawyer, you know, Like, I've heard the stories.

B (48:37)

Yeah.

A (48:38)

But, like, I've also spent time with him and his kids. Like, wow, just like, what a great dad.

B (48:44)

Right? Exactly. And you see him with his family and that all that buys back so much behavior because you see how he is with his family. Yeah.

A (48:53)

And the juxtaposition of those two is something else.

B (48:57)

Walter White. What does he want? He's dying of cancer and he's a teacher. He has no money. He's got to provide for his family somehow because that's his obligation. And so selling meth is the only skill set that he has. And becoming a drug dealer, everything's forgivable because all he wants is to provide for his family.

A (49:21)

Yeah. I was at a funeral recently, and no one really liked the woman who died. It was one of those funerals. No one was really happy to be there because no one had anything good to say. And someone got up and said. And said, you know, the thing that we loved about her is she cared so much about money because she wanted to take care of. Of everyone around her. And she grew up in the Great Depression. And we always thought, okay, you just care way too much about money. It's all you talk about. But he was like, you know what the thing about her is? Like, she did that because for her, her whole theory of control of reality is like, if we can be good financially, then everyone around me will be good. And so she got to take care of friends, future generations. And I know that the consequences of that we didn't like, but this was a major redeeming quality. And it was one of those things where all of a sudden everyone's like, wow, she didn't express love in the way that we would have expressed love. But, wow, once you see that, she really loved the people around her.

B (50:32)

Yeah. And it was good of that person to pick up on that and share.

A (50:35)

That because there was nothing else positive at the funeral. You know, so what should we be thinking about when we're introducing new characters?

B (50:44)

Anytime you introduce a character, for whatever reason, whatever you're writing, you always want to give them a good introduction. And I learned this on Just Shoot Me. Like, I Remember, you bring a character in, and I remember the boss, Steve Levitan, saying, okay, we got to give this person an introduction. And it's not just for the characters, also for the actor. Like the actors wants to. The actor wants to come on stage, do something interesting. Right. You don't want to just have them, hello, that's boring. Give him an entrance. You know, actors have egos, too. So you always would think about what's the best way to give a character an entrance. What's the first time we see. What are they doing? Can we get him in a sitcom? On a multicamera sitcom, the rule is always to get him in on a joke and get him off on a joke. You never, you know, a character never walks out of a scene without saying something funny. Yeah. Gotta give him a joke.

A (51:29)

Yeah. Well, the other thing is, I guess that the natural thing when you see a new character pop up is, who is she? What's going on here? And then if she just sort of storms on and you get a bunch in three seconds, it's like we, as the audience, are actually very good at drawing inside the lines and kind of figuring out what's going on. But we need something extreme is what I'm hearing you saying.

B (51:53)

We can learn so much. I think we talked about this as well. If you're doing a farmer character, hmm. Don't just have him walk in with a pitchfork. The first time we see the farmer, let's say he's tending to a cow, a sick cow, is he being compassionate? Is he being mean? Does he think the cow is a person, you know, have emotions? Or do you think the cow is just cattle? You know, how is he treating the sick animal? That'll tell you a lot about this person.

A (52:19)

And the core thing is it takes, like, two or three seconds.

B (52:21)

It's nothing. And we'll spend a long time, when I'm writing for television figuring out what the best way to introduce this character.

A (52:27)

I never thought about that before. I mean, I've thought about intros to a story like, a trillion times, but I've never thought about the introduction of a new character and how you want to make that an event.

B (52:36)

Yeah. This is why TV writing, TV takes so long, because you could spend a day on this introduction. What's the best way? Because you don't want to send a mixed message to the audience. They'll pick up on it.

A (52:47)

What's so interesting about all this is, like, you want clarity and complexity. You want simplicity and a multifaceted character. And it's like all these contradictions within screenwriting that makes the craft come alive.

B (53:03)

Yeah, it's really hard. And that's kind of the problem you often see with new writers. Just because you can. Good for you. You wrote a script. That's a big deal, because most people just talk about it. They don't actually do it. So congratulations for writing a script. I always say that. But just because you did that doesn't mean it's ready to be shot. Doesn't mean anyone should buy it. Doesn't mean don't blame the gatekeepers. It's very likely that it's not good. The only way to get good is by continuing writing more and more and more and more. And that's how you get good. Right.

A (53:38)

How about mentorship and stuff like that? How does that work?

B (53:41)

Yeah, that helps. Except it's hard to find someone who's willing to. Someone asked me yesterday on social media, hey, would you be interested in reading my script and giving me your feedback? Fuck no.

A (53:54)

No.

B (53:55)

Would I be interested in sitting down, taking an hour out of my day, an hour and a half, reading your script, and then spend another hour compiling notes, then another hour to get on a zoom call with you, to give you these notes while you get defensive? Because that's what's gonna happen, right? That's how I was when I was first starting off. Would I be interested in doing and for free? Not even a little bit, you know? So no. So it's hard to find a mentor, you know, if you want someone to do that, you're gonna have to pay. And that person, the better they are, the more they're gonna charge you.

A (54:30)

So tell me more about the process of improving, because surely you're just way better now than you are. And what I'm hearing from you is.

B (54:36)

I wrote a lot. I wrote a lot.

A (54:37)

I wrote a lot. So if I'm like, all right, I get it. Like, I gotta write a lot. What else do I.

B (54:43)

When I was taught was, stop polishing that turd. And so you'll write a script, your first script, and you'll spend months and years fixing and tweaking it and stop it. It's a turd. Finish it. Start another project. Finish that one. Start another one. And then script five, I guarantee you will be light years better than script one. That's how you get better, is by putting. Finishing it and moving on to the next one. And then this first script that you thought you wanted to sell for a million dol. That Hollywood owed you because it was so good, you'll Go back when you finish script five and you'll say, oh, my God, I can't believe I thought that was the one I was worth fighting for. This is worth fighting for. And that comes from just finishing something and starting something new. And it's not wasted. People think it's wasted. Oh, look, this first four scripts are wasted. No, you needed to write those to get to script five. None of it's wasted.

A (55:40)

How has your style evolved?

B (55:42)

I feel like in the beginning, I just wanted to write funny. That was very important. I want to be a comedy writer, and now I realize that comedy, my goal is to tell a compelling story. My goal is to make you feel something. I judge the quality of a story, not so much by how much you're enjoying while you're reading it, by how long it stays with you. When you're done reading it, then it's well written. And so the only way to do that, I feel, is with drama. So I use comedy now. I don't feel like I'm a comedy writer. I feel like I'm a writer who uses comedy to get to a result. And so it's really about, like, when you read these stories, the first half of them, the first half of any one's story, it's very funny, and it's to get you to lower your guard. Oh, this is going to be fun. This is light, this is easy. Oh, this is not going to set me off. You lower your guard, and then when your guard is in, then I hit you as hard as I can in the heart. And so at the second, from the second half of every story, I'm not even trying to make you laugh. What's the point? The comedy has already served its function, which is to get you to lower your guard. I don't need to make you laugh now. I don't want to make you laugh very often. I had this conversation with a friend of mine who's a writer, and he's a very talented writer, and I went to see him perform once, and he was really good. But then he finished his piece. He got to a very emotional point, and then he buttoned it with this joke at the end to get people to laugh. And I go, you ruined it. Don't do it, don't do it, don't do it. You spent all this time to lower everyone's guard, to get people to feel and don't take it away. Allow us to sit in that awful moment. Allow us to sit in it.

A (57:21)

I mean, this is what Chappelle does so well. You Know, if you were to look at one of his sets, it goes from humor to depth.

B (57:32)

Yeah. And that's what you remember about him, the depth. Yeah. It's not how much you laughed, it's how much he felt.

A (57:39)

What's the name of the guy who, like, historically used to go to the king and make him laugh?

B (57:44)

The court jester. Right. Yeah.

A (57:46)

So this is what the court jester used to do.

B (57:47)

And this is what I studied in college. I wrote papers on the role of the fool and King Lear. King and King Lear. And a touchstone in as yous Like It. And, you know, he used the Fool a lot. You couldn't say something to King Lear. He'd get really offended if you told him the truth. But the fool could say whatever you want.

A (58:07)

See, that's so profound to me that, like, if you can make the jokes, the, like, Overton window of what you can say is just so much wider.

B (58:17)

Yeah. If you can make someone laugh, you know, that's the goal. And early in the days on, just shoot me as well. You could say whatever you want in the writer's room. As long as you got a laugh. It could be horrible, it could be offensive, it could be awful. As long as the room laughed. If you said something horribly offensive and there wasn't a laugh, then the boss would send you on a pie run. You'd have to go to Dupars across the street and pick up a pie for the writing room. Yeah. Pie run. Yeah.

A (58:45)

That's just a wild. It's a really interesting window into human nature that if you're making people laugh, you can just say whatever you want. And the second you stop being funny, you're fucked.

B (58:55)

The swords come out. Yeah. Right.

A (58:57)

The swords come out.

B (58:58)

Yeah.

A (59:00)

What's this thing about the joke needs to be congruent with the character?

B (59:09)

Well, the joke has to come. The best jokes come from character. So if the character is uneducated, then the joke better come from that. I mean, so you don't want to. You don't want the character. You don't. A character to say something out of character just for a laugh. It won't work.

A (59:27)

As I was prepping for this, you said something that. That I thought was so profound. I want to kind of get to that.

B (59:31)

Yeah, I'm certain it was.

A (59:33)

Well. Well, dude, it was something like. It was something like. A lot of times, I think. I think what you said is, a lot of times people will make a joke and put it in a script as if it's like, funny could be from any character. Yeah, but you're like, that's actually kind of C level comedy. Like great comedy is like what that character said. That was funny. It actually could have only come from that character. And it carries all the context of that character. And that makes for a way better.

B (60:02)

Joke if you can swap a character. This is probably what I said. If you could take a line from this character's mouth and put into that character, it's not a great line, especially if it's a laugh line. That's not to say we don't do it. It's just never gonna be great. The best lines really are specific to that. Only that character can say it. And like I said, we sometimes do this anyway, like as a lazy thing. It's not so much lazy. Go. This is a good line. It's not that specific to the character. Someone's got it. Someone. One of you three people's gotta say it. So why don't you? You haven't said anything. This. This whole scene. Let's give it to you.

A (60:35)

What are like the commandments of Michael Jamin writing? Like, thou shalt not when it comes to humor writing?

B (60:44)

Well, this probably sounds snobby, but if you're not funny, just don't do it. It's okay. It's okay to tell drama. Some people just want to write drama. Write a comedy, and they just don't have it in them. But don't. It's okay. We need drama. Don't do it because it'll be cringy. And I see it sometimes. I see a comedy run movie. This is terrible. It's hard. It's hard to do it well. And it's okay if you can. We need drama.

A (61:13)

What else?

B (61:14)

What else? Well, like, I have certain things that I've picked up on. It's funny. My writing partner would tell you, this is something that I invented. I can't imagine I did. But I often say that questions aren't funny, statements are funny. And I know I thought of it, but someone must have thought of it before me. I just don't know who. And that is if your line is formed in a question, if your punchline is formed in a question, the audience is waiting for the answer. They're not going to step on it. They're waiting. But if it's a statement, they know it's over now you can laugh. And so the only exception to that is if it's a rhetorical question. Are you an idiot? That is a question, but it's a rhetorical question. So you can get a laugh on that. But if it's, are you an idiot? That's not gonna get a laugh. The next line will get a laugh. And that's why you always put the funny word. Always often put the funniest word in the sentence at the end that serves as a cue. You know, they often say, K words are funny. There's something about that sound. Cleveland is a funnier city than Cincinnati, but they're both in Ohio.

A (62:23)

Swig is funnier than drink.

B (62:26)

Yeah. Or kangaroo is a funny word.

A (62:27)

I just said exactly the opposite of what you said.

B (62:30)

Kangaroo, kalamazoo. Those are funny words. Because a K is a funny sound. A hard K. That's one. Often the rule of three, the joke is on the third reference. The rule of three. But, you know, those are kind of old, tired old. There are reasons not to use a roll of three when you're writing comedy, and the first reason being it sounds jokey. So sometimes it's okay, and sometimes it just feels like bad writing.

A (62:59)

Wait, tell me about that. Sounds jokey.

B (63:01)

Okay. A priest, a nun, and a rabbi walk into a bar. Like, we know a joke's coming. We know the joke is coming. So, you know, and sometimes it's okay in that context. Okay, this is going to be funny. But sometimes it signals, uh, oh, here it comes.

A (63:18)

How is it different doing, like, slapstick humor versus very dry humor?

B (63:22)

Right.

A (63:22)

Because Beavis and Butthead is, like, pretty dry humor.

B (63:24)

Yeah. I mean, slapstick is hard. You don't know it's gonna work until you see it on his feet. You know, you really need. You're really relying on a very talented actor for that. And if you have one, you can do it, but often you don't. You know, I've written a lot of shows where the actors can't do slapstick, so you don't write them slapstick, but.

A (63:45)

Dry humor, you know, it's gonna land better.

B (63:47)

Again, it's dependent on the actor. And so you always write towards their strengths and away from their weaknesses. I was on a show once where very talented actress, and she was great, but she didn't play certain notes very well. And she would seem a little too strident if you gave her. If you had her say a certain line. So you didn't want her to come off strident. So you just wouldn't give her lines like that. She couldn't make them funny.

A (64:12)

I want to try doing this. I got some different movies and stuff, and I want to ask you about why you think they're funny or just what comes to mind. So this would be kind of a fire round.

B (64:24)

Okay.

A (64:25)

Family Guy.

B (64:26)

Well, Family Guy is very broad, and it could be hilarious, but it's very broad. It's not, you know, you're watching a cartoon and it's not grounded. You're not going to get to an emotional place. You're going to laugh your ass off, though. South park, similar, you know, similar kind of thing. What's interesting about south park is that, you know, they bang these out real fast. The animation isn't very good. I mean, it's just, you know, the mouse. Only the mouse moves. Their head doesn't move, and it's a circle on a triangle, you know, so you're not looking, you're not watching it for the animation. And sometimes you'll see new writers do that. They'll come up with, oh, doesn't this look great? They'll shoot something. It looks great. Yes. And the animation's great. It's boring as shit because the writing isn't there in South Park. It's all writing. It's all about the writing. No one's watching south park because they want to watch the animation.

A (65:15)

And they're great at hitting on cultural moments. You know, the thing about south park is if I watch a Family Guy clip from, like, 15 years ago, I'll still kind of laugh in the same way. A lot of times south park is really funny in the moment where we'd come to school the next day and be like, man, you know, did you see the south park episode last night?

B (65:31)

But they can do that because they're. Because the animation is so crude, they can animate them real fast, and they can be topical. When I was working on King of the Hill, we never even tried to be topical. It took nine months to animate that show. By the time it came out, you'd forgotten all about that event that you're trying to make jokes about. And it would date it. I mean, that's the problem with South Park. It'll date. You go, oh, this episode is from 15 years ago. And if you don't remember that reference, it won't be funny. But in the moment, it's hilarious.

A (66:00)

Let's do Friends and Seinfeld.

B (66:03)

Yeah. One of the things about Seinfeld, there was a thing going around, it's a show about nothing. And that was like a marketing thing. It's not a show about money. Nothing. There's plenty. There's a show about plenty. Like, I don't even understand why people think it's a show about nothing. This is a marketing tool.

A (66:17)

That's what Jerry Seinfeld said.

B (66:18)

Yeah. And he was smart to say that. But it's not. It's like, okay, in this episode, this is an episode where there's a great soup guy who sells soup, but they can't keep it. They have to behave and they can't be. If they misbehave, they don't get their soup. That's not nothing. Same thing with the masturbation episode. All these great episodes. There's plenty there. It's not just people talking. In other words, that would be a show about nothing. There's plenty of plot driving forward.

A (66:45)

How about Friends?

B (66:46)

Well, same thing, but the Friends was a little more traditional sitcom, but very similar.

A (66:52)

I'm just amazed at how many. So I was not like this, but I had so many friends who just grew up on these shows. And what's so unique about sitcoms is the reruns.

B (67:03)

Yeah.

A (67:03)

Like we don't have that as much now because the way that the movie culture has changed. But.

B (67:08)

And streaming.

A (67:08)

Yeah, right, Streaming.

B (67:10)

Right.

A (67:10)

And with reruns, people just come home and they'd watch Friends and you talk to people. It's like I read a friend named Zoe and she, it's an older sister, one of my friends, she's like, oh, yeah, I've seen that episode of Friends like seven times. I was like, what?

B (67:22)

Yeah, right. What? Seven times.

A (67:24)

What? Yeah, but sitcoms have an ability to.

B (67:27)

Do that because these are your friends. You're just hanging out with your friends.

A (67:30)

It's like comfort.

B (67:31)

It's very comfortable. And that is. That doesn't exist. It's going away. Those multi camera sitcoms. Yeah.

A (67:38)

Will Ferrell movies.

B (67:40)

Oh, he's great. You know, Stepbrothers was hilarious. I mean, I love Step Brothers. I mean, really. But it was so well written, you know, and it was about these.

A (67:52)

What makes it well written?

B (67:53)

Good question. I mean, the premise was great. And the buy in those. They were both. The buy in was that these are grown men acting like they're 12 year olds.

A (68:03)

Did we just become best friends?

B (68:04)

And that's what's so fun about it. But again, I'm not sure if two other actors could have pulled that off that well. You know, that was really casting. They were in it phenomenal.

A (68:16)

How about Adam Sandler movies?

B (68:17)

Yeah, I mean, and then that's a little broader and a little slapsticky, but also great. I mean, they're very like 50 first dates is a very soft and very comfortable movie about a high concept movie about falling in love with a woman who can't remember one day to the next. And it was a fun movie.

A (68:38)

At the risk of yanking open the taboo door, how do you feel about ChatGPT and writing jokes?

B (68:45)

Oh, well, I don't even understand. The point of it is I don't understand. People say to me, do you use any AI tools? It's like, AI is not a tool. It's in lieu of. It's in lieu of writing. I can't think of a joke, so I'll have AI come up with a joke for me. Do you want to be a writer or not? Do you want to? I wouldn't get into a waymo these self driving cars and say, look at that. Look what a great driver I am. The car's a great driver. I'm not a great driver. Same thing with ChatGPT. If you're using AI to write, why did you become a writer in the first place? Writing is hard. It's supposed to be hard. That's why it feels good.

A (69:22)

But couldn't it be like a mathematician using a calculator?

B (69:25)

I don't think so. Because you go into AI, you're using a prompt to give you the answer. I don't think so.

A (69:33)

Okay, but what if you had? You're saying my job is to make the best show possible. Okay, so you have got your one man show, right? You're trying to really captivate people. What I'm hearing you say is, okay, I want to be a writer, so I got to write everything for that show. But if I told you, Michael, I could make this show 20% better, we can use AI you'd be like, no, I'm not in.

B (69:54)

No, I'm really not interested. I think the point of writing and the point of art in general is to take something inside of yourself, something painful or ugly or difficult, and to transform it the way you would transform mud and turn it into a vase like clay, right? And you do this to help you understand yourself and your place in the world. That's the point of it. And I'm not interested in. I'm really not. I'm not interested in watching. And I don't think people are either. From what I get, the sense is like, people are not interested in. They're creeped out by AI writing and telling them if AI becomes sentient and AI, yeah, if it becomes sentient, then I'd be interested in AI telling me a story what it's like to be a computer. Do you aspire to be human? Do you think humans Are weak. What's it like to be a thinking, sentient being but be stuck in the Internet and not in the world? Is that frustrating? Is it liberating? What is it like, AI, tell me that story because I can't possibly. Tell me. You can tell me that story, but I don't want AI to tell me a story about the human experience. I want a human being to tell me about that.

A (71:02)

Yeah, but the thing is, like, sometimes I'll ask AI to kind of write me a joke about something, and I will just laugh my face off. Now, I'm not that funny, but you.

B (71:13)

Don'T get to take credit for that.

A (71:15)

So then should I.

B (71:16)

What?

A (71:16)

Credit the AI for it?

B (71:17)

No, but do you feel good about, hey, look how funny I am? All you did was enter a prompt.

A (71:25)

Yeah, but there's an art in entering the prompt.

B (71:29)

No, you don't feel that. To me, it's supposed. Writing is hard. It's meant to be hard because the satisfaction comes. Most writers I talk to will say this. None of us enjoy writing. We all enjoy having written. And it's just that, look, I did it. And, yeah, it's meant to be hard.

A (71:47)

Yeah. I mean, look, I'm also taking the other side here. Like, we could turn around the tables and I could be right on your side. But what I'm hearing you say is, is. Is that it hits the part of you that sees this as a craft and it. Like it. It. That it shatters your soul.

B (72:05)

Yeah. I mean, I don't get too melodramatic on certain things, but. But, yeah, good writing does that, I think, you know, and that's the satisfaction that I get out of it. It's like, because no one goes, no one becomes a writer to get rich, or you go. You don't go into the arts. Wouldn't be. Wouldn't be great if you do. But it's like you go into the arts because you don't want to have a desk job that you hate. And just creating makes you feel whole. And that's the satisfaction you get.

A (72:32)

Yeah. I guess what I'm hearing you say is it defeats the point of why we are doing this in the first place.

B (72:39)

Yeah. And like I said, I didn't say this yet, but AI will. Let's have it do the things we don't want to do. There's plenty of things I don't want to do, the writing I do want to do. But also, when you talk about your voice, if you're trying to find your voice when you're Writing, and you're relying on AI you're not going to get your voice. You're going to get the voice of whatever amalgamated thing it pulls up, and then it's not going to be consistent. Really?

A (73:05)

Well, that's sometimes true, but I think that AI is going to get really good at mimicking your voice. For example, I can say this with fairly high conviction. If you wrote for King of the hill for 15 years and you put all the scripts into the AI the AI would do better at mimicking that voice than anybody except for the writers of King of the Hill. Now, you could train someone, but you probably couldn't do better than AI it could take more than a month.

B (73:37)

I understand that. But let's say you're writing a piece just for yourself, and you're like, I need a good joke here. I'll go dig one out of AI that joke is not going to be in your voice. It's not going to match the rest of the voice of your piece. How could it?

A (73:51)

So the incongruence is.

B (73:53)

I think so. But I do know what you're saying about the studios are already trying to do this. I don't think we're there yet, but I think we'll get there. Where AI can write an episode of King of the Hill as well as the staff can. That's what their hope is.

A (74:09)

So what I'm hearing you say is that it violates the art and the craft inside of you.

B (74:14)

Yeah. I just don't know why you'd want. Like, I could see why a studio would want to do it, because they can fire all the writers. They're always looking for ways to fire writers. I just don't know why an individual would want to do it.

A (74:25)

One of the things that's so nice about writing with AI sometimes, like, I was working on a paragraph recently. It was a paragraph about how I came to faith, how I became a Christian. And I was trying to basically describe. I had this. So I grew up in San Francisco. There's a place called the Exploratorium. It's a science museum. And I used to, like, spin this, like, ball around this thing. And you'd spin it and you would. It's how I learned about centrifugal force. And it kind of come back into the middle.

B (74:52)

Yeah.

A (74:53)

And what happened is that's sort of how I came to faith. I felt like I was spinning around, but then that was like a circle. But this was sort of like more like elliptical in nature, where sometimes I go, like, away from Christ. Sometimes I'd come to Christ. But then eventually I realized that I was kind of spinning around and around. And even though it wasn't like a perfect circle, it was more like oval esque. I got to a point where I was like, I know what my fate is going to be. And so rather than trying to fight that I'm going to end up becoming a believer. I'm just going to kind of surrender to that. And that was sort of the day that I became a Christian.

B (75:24)

Okay, you explained that very well. I get it.

A (75:27)

So the reason why I can explain it that well is because I was working with AI had a very. Spent like two minutes talking to the AI hey, can you help me find the right metaphor? I got this thing and that thing and this thing and that thing. And so I feel like that's what I wanted to say was totally in my voice. But that was.

B (75:43)

I think you could have gotten collaborating, you could have gotten it without it on your own. I think you sell yourself short. You could have done that because you used to go to the. You used to go to the. You know, you grew up in San Francisco. You went to this museum. You have this memory of the ball. You know, that was the demonstration of gravity. Right. You have this memory. I think you could have done it. I think you sell yourself short.

A (76:07)

Yeah. Well, the thing is, I, I'm excited about. By it because I see it as a. As a collaborator now. Right. Getting AI to write for you, I think is just ridiculous. Like, completely ridiculous. But getting AI to write with you, I think that that's where I see things differently. For me, it's like, but what if this is so.

B (76:25)

Because then you don't own that. Because then it becomes that you have a copyright issue and you can't copyright anything that AI comes up with, then it's not yours. I don't know what your goal is with it.

A (76:34)

Yeah, I mean, I'm. I'm working on a personal essay. So the copyright stuff doesn't. Isn't an issue here.

B (76:42)

Yeah, but are you planning on publishing.

A (76:44)

It on my site? So it's an essay?

B (76:48)

Yeah. I don't know.

A (76:49)

It doesn't bother me because for me, it's the, it's the creating with. But I, I see how somebody could see it differently. It's just. That's kind of where I stand. I'm like, man, it's so nice having this.

B (77:00)

To me, it's a tool that none of. At least none of my colleagues were asking for. We didn't talk about it. If we were. I mean, sometimes we would joke. We would joke. Can't we just leave the computer on and we'll come back in the morning and the script will be all done? That was just a joke. But we knew we were going to be there until 4 in the morning. Yeah.

A (77:18)

How do you think about making a good premise? Because I thought that you explained Severance really well. Severance, A mysterious company employs people who've had their memories severed so that they're bifurcated into two separate souls. A worker soul who has no knowledge of the outside world and a civilian soul who has no knowledge of the inside world.

B (77:37)

I just think it's. Don't ask me how they came up with that. It's brilliant. And it works so well. I don't write sci fi. Part of the problem with writing science fiction is that it's very tempting to serve the premise too much. Where all you're talking about is, and they could have done this on severance, but they didn't. They didn't fall into that trap where all you're talking about is the rules of the science fiction and the industry and what they're selling in this building and why this evil company exists. What's really more interesting are the relationships between the characters and the relationships between the characters and themselves. This outside the Audi and the Innie. And that's all built into the premise. It's a brilliant premise. Don't ask me how that game. Someone came up with a brilliant premise. It's hard. I don't even try to come up with brilliant premises when I'm writing comedy, though.

A (78:28)

So break down what makes that such.

B (78:32)

A brilliant premise is that baked into the premise is the conflict between the characters in terms of why would a character decide to sever their memory? It sounds like a dumb thing to do. Because this character's in pain. They had a tragedy. Or this character's a loser and that's why they did it. Or this character is doing it because she owns the company and she has to do it. It's baked into the premise. Whereas if you did a science fiction about there's been an apocalypse and now these are the solo survivors of the apocalypse, well, these are the ones. These are the people who lived. And you got to give it a lot more thought. Okay? One person should be smart, one person might be lucky, one person might be a scientist, one person might be an athlete. And then you kind of. You have to fabricate the conflict. Whereas baked into the premise of severance is the conflict, which is brilliant. I don't know how they did. I don't know how this person hit on such a good idea.

A (79:31)

Well, one of the things I'm hearing you say is that in a good premise, the rest of the story just has a way of unfolding, holding.

B (79:38)

Yeah. And that might be a little facile because it almost implies that it writes itself, because nothing writes itself.

A (79:48)

Right.

B (79:48)

Like, sometimes people would say, like, you know, I go into a meeting and they go, oh, here's the premise. It writes itself. And I'm like, oh, really? Then just give me a check and I'll come back on Monday and you show me what wrote itself. You know, nothing writes itself. But like I said, baked into that premise is, like, there's already a lot of. Like, my eyes light up when I hear that premise, and I'm like, oh, wow, it's fertile. Yeah, it's very fertile. Yeah.

A (80:14)

And what was what you said about giving the premise too much?

B (80:18)

When you service it too much?

A (80:19)

What does that mean? What does that mean?

B (80:20)

It's kind of like you're servicing the rules of the world. It's very easy for science fiction shows to fall into this trap where they start. I don't want to name names because I don't want to badmouth at shows, but I can think of some where there were shows where they're constantly. They're explaining the rules and then deconstructing the rules and coming up with new rules. And as the episodes go further and further because they have to keep sustaining interest.

A (80:48)

Well, that's a little bit of what happened to Lost. Lost was amazing. It was so good. And then you get the season three finale, the Flash Forward. I remember being at my friend Jeremy's house. I was in seventh grade. I used to go every single week to watch Lost, and we march around the house like, oh, my goodness. And then by season six, it was.

B (81:04)

Just like, because you're servicing the rules of the island and what's going on in this island, and it becomes less really about the characters themselves and more.

A (81:13)

And I think also this is when Christopher Nolan messes up. I think that this is where he messes up. He just goes too far into his little world. And, like, that's how I felt with Tenet. It's like, okay, now I'm trying to just figure out the physics of the world that you've created, and I can't even be in your story.

B (81:28)

Yeah. And I'm not gonna badmouth any of them. Right. But.

A (81:31)

Well, I can. I'm outside the industry.

B (81:32)

You can, but I Understand your point. Right. Because it's about what people are tuning into, are about the relationships between the characters. And it's really, at the end of the day, it's just that.

A (81:46)

Tell me more about that.

B (81:48)

Honestly, it's like every episode I write at Felism is, is this character going to figure out a way to get along with this character? Or in my book, because it's personal essays, am I going to figure out a way to get along with this other facet of myself? Am I going to figure out how to reconcile those two? That's the stakes. And so the stakes are basically, it's. Are these two people. Are we going to. Can these two people, these two people who love each other, figure out how to get along?

A (82:15)

Am I going too far with the aphorism of every story is a human story?

B (82:20)

No, I think that's exactly right. I think I'll take it a step further. I think every story is a boy trying to become a man, or a girl trying to become a woman, or a toy or a doll trying to become a human being. Pinocchio. Toy Story. Yeah, Toy Story. That's not some story. That's every story. Every story is about a boy trying to become a man.

A (82:43)

So I had dinner with maybe the world's top game designer, like, three months ago, and somebody asked him, what is it that most people get wrong about board games? And he goes, so simple. They try to make the games too entertaining.

B (83:03)

And I'm like, what?

A (83:03)

He goes, it's not about the game. It's about the interactions between the people who are playing the game.

B (83:08)

Oh.

A (83:09)

And I was like, that's why you're you.

B (83:11)

So I thought you were going to say he made video games, but he was a board game.

A (83:14)

Board game designer.

B (83:15)

It's about the interaction between the people playing.

A (83:17)

Yeah. So he's like, every board game is just a context for relationships to form, for conversations to happen.

B (83:25)

That's very interesting.

A (83:25)

And it's similar to what you're saying, where it's just about the people, it's about the human beings.

B (83:31)

Yeah. That's great. That's it. That's great insight. Yeah. Yeah.

A (83:34)

This was fun.

B (83:35)

Good. I'm glad. I had fun, too.

A (83:37)

Good stuff, man. Thanks for coming on.

B (83:39)

Yeah, pleasure.