Podcast Title: How I Write
Host: David Perell
Guest: Robert Macfarlane
Episode Title: Robert Macfarlane: The Most Beautiful Conversation About Language
Release Date: June 18, 2025
In this captivating episode of How I Write, host David Perell engages in an enlightening dialogue with acclaimed nature writer Robert Macfarlane. The conversation delves deep into Macfarlane's creative process, his profound connection with nature, and his intricate relationship with language. Below is a structured summary of their comprehensive discussion, highlighting key insights, notable quotes, and the nuanced exploration of writing mechanics.
1. Cultivating a Deep Sensitivity to Nature
[00:00 – 01:48]
David initiates the conversation by probing into Macfarlane's enduring sensitivity to the natural world, particularly his profound connection to mountains—a recurring theme in his 22-year writing career.
Notable Quote:
"My heart is made of mountains and always will be."
— Robert Macfarlane [01:29]
Macfarlane attributes his heightened awareness to his upbringing in mountainous regions, emphasizing how their intense environments sharpen sensory perceptions. The mountains, with their dazzling light, crisp air, and inherent dangers, foster a perpetual state of alertness and openness to the world's subtle interactions.
2. The Obsession with Light and the Limitations of Language
[01:48 – 04:21]
David shares a personal anecdote about witnessing a breathtaking sunset, lamenting the inadequacy of language to capture such fleeting beauty. Macfarlane responds by reflecting on the inherent limitations of language in portraying dynamic phenomena like light.
Notable Quote:
"Language will always be late for its subject. When its subject is light, it stands no chance."
— Robert Macfarlane [02:42]
He advocates for abandoning the futile quest for direct correspondence between language and experience. Instead, he encourages embracing metaphor and artifice, allowing language to evoke rather than replicate natural beauty.
3. Harnessing Prepositions to Deepen Connection with Nature
[04:21 – 06:16]
The conversation shifts to the subtle power of prepositions in shaping the relationship between writer and subject. Macfarlane emphasizes the transformative effect of phrases like "writing with rivers" instead of "writing about rivers," suggesting a collaborative and co-creative engagement.
Notable Quote:
"When you write with rivers, prepositions shift it to a new dimension where rivers and I are co-thinking, co-writing."
— Robert Macfarlane [06:00]
This deliberate choice of language underscores a metaphysical partnership, blurring the boundaries between self and nature.
4. The Role of Rhythm in Nonfiction Writing
[06:16 – 09:02]
Macfarlane delves into his fascination with rhythm, traditionally associated with poetry, and its application in nonfiction. He argues that rhythm shapes the reader's internal experience, transcending mere informational delivery.
Notable Quote:
"Rhythm works upon the mind, the reader's mind's ear, in ways that are different to propositional language."
— Robert Macfarlane [09:01]
He highlights his meticulous attention to first lines—sometimes revising entire chapters to perfect them—and draws parallels between rhythmic patterns in writing and those in natural phenomena like rivers.
5. Transforming Field Notes into Structured Writing
[09:02 – 23:23]
Exploring his methodology, Macfarlane describes his alchemical process of turning fragmented field notes into coherent narratives. Over years of meticulous note-taking, he captures "qualia"—the raw phenomena of perception—and later reconstructs these fragments into expansive, interconnected stories.
Notable Quote:
"The notebook’s there, and I'm just always pouring what I call qualia—bits, bobs, the fluff—that stick in my mind."
— Robert Macfarlane [16:39]
He emphasizes the non-linear nature of his writing, assembling disparate pieces into a "mycelium of connections," which forms the backbone of his intricate narratives.
6. Questions as Portals to Deeper Exploration
[23:23 – 42:05]
Central to Macfarlane's writing philosophy is the concept of framing his work around profound, yet deceptively simple questions. These questions act as portals, guiding his exploration into vast and complex terrains.
Notable Quote:
"These questions are portals. They’re the wardrobe that leads you into a whole new world."
— Robert Macfarlane [41:53]
Whether pondering "Is a river alive?" or "Can a forest think?", these inquiries open gateways to expansive discussions, weaving together mythology, personal experience, and scientific inquiry.
7. The Mystical Encounter with a River Being
[35:26 – 48:00]
Macfarlane recounts a transformative experience during an intense river journey, where he perceives the river as an autonomous, godlike presence. This encounter challenges his rational understanding, leading to a metaphysical unlearning of self.
Notable Quote:
"The river did the unlearning and showed me its agency, its will, its presence."
— Robert Macfarlane [37:07]
Such mystical moments underscore the profound interplay between writer and environment, shaping his subsequent narratives and philosophical musings.
8. Collaboration and the Influence of Peers
[48:00 – 56:00]
Highlighting the significance of collaboration, Macfarlane shares his experiences working with diverse individuals who act as co-creators in his projects. He underscores the enrichment that comes from engaging with peers who share his obsessive curiosity.
Notable Quote:
"They are incredible characters, almost like co-writers, bringing elements to the book I could never have imagined on my own."
— Robert Macfarlane [51:43]
These interactions infuse his work with authenticity and depth, allowing his narratives to flourish through genuine dialogue and shared exploration.
9. The Intersection of Poetry, Libretti, and Prose
[53:00 – 59:00]
Macfarlane discusses his ventures into poetry and songwriting, revealing how these forms influence his prose. Through crafting libretti and song lyrics, he explores the fluidity of language and the importance of rhythm and sound in conveying emotion and meaning.
Notable Quote:
"Writing lyrics has taught me to let images lapse into looseness, allowing them to cross-pollinate in unexpected ways."
— Robert Macfarlane [58:04]
This cross-pollination enhances the lyrical quality of his prose, making it more evocative and resonant.
10. Preservation and Loss of Language
[62:00 – 64:30]
A poignant segment where Macfarlane addresses the critical issue of language death. He underscores language as a repository of cultural and ecological knowledge, lamenting the loss that accompanies the extinction of languages.
Notable Quote:
"Language death is a biocultural collapse, a deletion of knowledge born over many generations."
— Robert Macfarlane [63:43]
His efforts in documenting dialects and interacting with language keepers highlight his dedication to preserving linguistic diversity.
11. The arduous yet rewarding Revision Process
[64:00 – 71:00]
Macfarlane elaborates on his extensive revision process, likening it to the laborious yet creative craft of pottery. He advocates for a messy, non-linear approach, embracing divergence and allowing pieces of the narrative to evolve organically.
Notable Quote:
"Don't fetishize the working environment. Don't run away from the hard work. Just show up and put the time in."
— Robert Macfarlane [69:00]
This disciplined yet flexible methodology enables him to nurture his ideas over years, culminating in rich, multifaceted works.
12. Engaging with Artificial Intelligence in Writing
[71:00 – 89:15]
In a candid discussion about modern writing tools, Macfarlane expresses skepticism towards integrating AI into the creative process. He appreciates tools like spellcheck but remains wary of AI's potential to dilute the distinctiveness and individuality of human writing.
Notable Quote:
"I cannot ever imagine using AI for writing. Language is too personal, too intricate."
— Robert Macfarlane [68:45]
He criticizes the overreliance on AI tools like Grammarly, valuing unique stylistic choices over conforming to standardized grammar norms.
13. Crafting Vivid and Visceral Writing
[71:00 – 87:02]
Macfarlane delves into techniques for producing vivid, visceral writing that resonates deeply with readers. He emphasizes avoiding hyperbole and over-explanation, allowing the reader to engage and co-create the experience.
Notable Quote:
"Resist the impulse to explain astonishment. Let the reader become a participant, co-creating with you."
— Robert Macfarlane [84:12]
Through minimalistic yet impactful descriptions, he aims to evoke genuine emotional and physical responses, making the reading experience immersive and tangible.
14. Exploring Language from Diverse Cultures
[88:00 – End]
In the concluding segments, Macfarlane explores linguistic nuances from various cultures, including Old English and Hebridean Gaelic. He highlights the poetic richness of kennings and the descriptive precision embedded in Gaelic place names.
Notable Quote:
"Kennings are a beautiful metaphoric generosity, fusing two bits of language to create a new layer of meaning."
— Robert Macfarlane [76:11]
He stresses the importance of linguistic diversity in enriching natural descriptions and preserving cultural heritage, advocating for a deeper appreciation of language's aesthetic and functional capacities.
Final Thoughts and Closing Banter
[87:02 – End]
The episode wraps up with a light-hearted exchange, where David shares a personal gripe about the overuse of the word "brilliant" in English, prompting a humorous retort from Macfarlane. This friendly banter underscores the mutual respect and shared passion for language between the host and guest.
Notable Quote:
"We're two nerds wigging out on language, which is exactly what we love."
— David Perell [88:00]
Conclusion
This episode stands out as a profound exploration of the intricate dance between nature, language, and writing. Robert Macfarlane's introspective insights offer listeners a glimpse into the soul of a writer deeply intertwined with the landscapes he describes. From the sensory awakenings forged in rugged terrains to the meticulous crafting of sentences that dance with rhythm and meaning, Macfarlane exemplifies the quintessence of evocative nature writing. David Perell's thoughtful inquiries ensure that listeners not only understand Macfarlane's process but are also inspired to contemplate their own relationships with language and the natural world.
For aspiring writers and nature enthusiasts alike, this conversation serves as both a masterclass in literary craftsmanship and a heartfelt ode to the enduring beauty of our environment.