Podcast Summary: How I Write with David Perell

Guest: Stefan Sagmeister
Episode: Why Are Things Less Beautiful Today?
Date: October 22, 2025

Episode Theme

This episode dives into the intersection of design, beauty, and writing. David Perell interviews world-renowned designer and writer Stefan Sagmeister about his creative process, reflections on beauty and function, the importance of honesty in work, and why so much of our built environment feels less beautiful today. The conversation explores strategies for creativity, the changing role of beauty in art and design, the psychological and societal impacts of aesthetics, and what it means to make work that is both meaningful and popular.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Generating Novel Ideas Through Random Associations

• Sagmeister on Creativity:
  Instead of starting with traditional points of reference (e.g., how glasses have always been made), begin with something random (like "your sock") to shift your thinking and spark novelty.
  • “Would have never thought it if I wouldn't have started with your sock. Never.” (03:04)
• Edward de Bono’s Method:
  • Our brains favor efficiency and well-worn paths, making new connections difficult.
  • Random starting points force the formation of new neural pathways—essential for truly original ideas.

2. The Power and Practice of Diary Writing

• Influence on Design:
  Daily diary writing, which Sagmeister began as a child, became a way to revisit self-truths and spark new ideas.
  • “There was a list that said, things I've learned in my life so far... I'll pick one of those and I'll make very complicated typography out of it.” (06:18)
• Reflection and Growth:
  Reviewing old diaries revealed persistent personal struggles and inspired new directions in his work.

3. Clarity vs. Obscurity in Communication

• Making Texts Accessible:
  Sagmeister rails against “outspeak” (opaque, academic exhibition text), emphasizing that clarity should come first—even if it risks being perceived as simplistic.
  • “In the exhibition on beauty, I worked my ass off to make the text as short and as precise as possible.” (09:36)
  • On art criticism: “I can translate it... it's 15 sentences in outspeak, and here it's in four sentences in very clear speak.” (08:22)

4. Human Touch vs. Machine-Made Aesthetics

• Rejection of Pure Functionalism:
  Modernism’s shift from ornament and craft to machine-made coldness eventually led to creative stagnation.
  • “Functionality is so unbelievably easy... if you need to design a chair that is functional but also beautiful... this is one of the biggest design problems in the world.” (13:09)
• Handcrafted Elements:
  Sagmeister advocates for visible proof of human care and handiwork in design, especially as AI and digital tools proliferate.

5. The Psychological Impact of Beauty

• Influence on Behavior:
  • “People feel better and they behave better [in beautiful places].” (18:24)
  • Example: The High Line vs. the surrounding Meatpacking District; Grand Central vs. Penn Station.
• Societal Self-Policing:
  Well-designed environments inspire respect and self-regulation in their users.

6. The Decline (and Niche Survival) of Quality in Design

• Book and Album Cover Quality:
  Modern mass-market production often sacrifices materials and design quality, though niche markets (e.g. vinyl records) maintain high standards out of passion rather than commercial pressure.

7. Translating Emotion: Album Cover Design

• Process:
  Interviews and studio visits focus on the emotional core of an album rather than literal interpretations.
  • “Translating that emotion in the music into something that we love... is still, I think, a super interesting endeavor.” (24:56)
• Anecdote:
  Charlie Watts of The Rolling Stones did not recognize iconic album covers from his own band.
  • “He had no idea... that was just so amazing...” (27:07)

8. Refining Personal and Professional Taste

• Exposure and Context:
  Your sense of beauty and taste depends on breadth and context of what you’ve experienced.
• Popular vs. Critical Taste:
  Critics, exposed to more, may have tastes divergent from the general public—especially problematic for public art.
  • “It becomes a huge problem when it becomes to... public art, which by definition... should be for the public. Critics hate public art.” (29:33)

9. The Trap of Over-Intellectualization

• Authenticity for Mass and Elite:
  Sagmeister and Perell discuss how intellectual circles can overcomplicate both design and writing, undermining appeal.
  • “The hardest thing to do is to make something popular and good.” (32:01)
  • On over-intellectualization: “People will spice up, fluff up their writing... but like, no, people don't want that.” (31:25)

10. Beauty as a Necessary Function

• Sustainability Tied to Beauty:
  Beautiful things are valued and maintained, extending their life far beyond “eco-friendly” but ugly counterparts.
  • “Pantheon in Rome... never was broken down because every culture... thought it was beautiful and didn't want to get rid of it.” (43:18)

11. Long-Term Thinking vs. Short-Term Panic

• Media and Perception:
  The predominance of negative, short-term news obscures long-term positive trends (e.g., in flight safety, democracy).
  • “If you look at it from the short term, it looks like shit. You look at it from the long term, it looks fantastic. It's literally 180 degree differently.” (61:21)
• Paralysis from Anxiety:
  Apocalyptic narratives foster passivity, especially among young people.
  • “Anxiety and depression, as you and I know, are not empowering. You know, they're debilitating. They don't make you do anything.” (64:38)

12. Globalization and Loss of Local Identity in Design

• Homogeneity:
  Design worldwide is increasingly "sameified," with only regions under existential threat (e.g., Ukraine) fiercely holding onto their design roots.
  • “I think that's one of the real downsides [of globalization]... that you cannot tell... what was done in London or in Helsinki...” (70:05)
• Critique of Template-Based Design:
  Even "innovative" design often feels generic and lacks locality.

13. Personal Philosophies & Practices

• Making Room for Experimentation:
  The importance of sabbaticals, experimentation, and "sketchbook years."
• Weekly Self-Evaluation:
  Sagmeister grades himself weekly on personal goals to stay aligned with his intentions and avoid autopilot.
  • "Weekly works. Weekly is fine. Like, it takes me no time at all." (75:00)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Functionality is so unbelievably easy... but if you need to design a chair that is functional but also beautiful... now suddenly you're fighting 5,000 years of chair history.” (13:09, Stefan Sagmeister)
• “If you're obsessive about a certain piece and you obsessively try to make it better, try to make it more beautiful, try to push it to the point where you can't push it anymore, where you think, okay, this is right now my level of pushification... that often is a good piece.” (54:13, Stefan Sagmeister)
• “People feel better and they behave better [in beautiful places].” (18:24, Stefan Sagmeister)
• “The hardest thing to do is to make something popular and good.” (32:01, Stefan Sagmeister)
• “Every building that's lasted for 2,000 years—like the Pantheon in Rome—is because every generation found it beautiful enough to keep.” (43:18, paraphrased)
• “If you look at [any problem] from the short term, it looks like shit. In the long term, it looks fantastic.” (61:21, Stefan Sagmeister)
• “Trying to look good limits my life.” (52:10, Stefan Sagmeister)
• “Honesty is interesting. That's the core of it. And I thought, wow, this is so fantastic. All you have to do is be honest. It will be automatically interesting.” (45:12, Stefan Sagmeister)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Finding Good Ideas (Edward de Bono Method): 00:55 – 03:08
• Diary Writing & Rethinking Restraints: 04:13 – 06:49
• Clarity in Communication & 'Outspeak': 07:27 – 10:02
• Typography & Human vs. Machine-Made: 10:02 – 14:17
• Psychology of Beauty and Human Behavior: 17:53 – 20:49
• Decline of Material Quality in Books/Design: 21:10 – 23:43
• Translating Music Emotion to Visuals (Stones Anecdote): 23:43 – 27:58
• Popular vs. Critical Taste in Art & Design: 27:58 – 34:48
• Beauty as Function and Sustainability: 41:21 – 44:47
• Obsession and Creation (‘Pushification’): 53:31 – 56:02
• Navigating Popularity vs. Selling Out: 32:39 – 34:48
• Long-Term Perspective on Progress: 59:20 – 64:38
• Design Homogeneity & Local Identity: 68:07 – 73:34
• Weekly Self-Evaluation Ritual: 74:19 – 76:21
• Most Moving Building/Artwork (James Turrell Skyscapes): 76:44 – 79:33

Closing Reflections

The conversation is rich in both practical advice and philosophical inquiry, stressing that “beauty”—far from being superficial—is essential to how we experience, maintain, and even behave in the world. Sagmeister stands as a passionate advocate for clarity, honesty, handcraft, and long-term thinking. Whether designing for mass audiences or personal growth, he suggests the ultimate challenge (and highest art) lies in bridging quality and popularity without resorting to cliché or conformity.

“All you have to do is be honest. It will be automatically interesting.” — Stefan Sagmeister (45:12)

For deeper detail, listen for the timestamps above to catch specific stories, Sagmeister’s candid wisdom, and actionable creative philosophy.