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#259: Sarah Gibson Tuttle, Founder and CEO of Olive & June – Work on yourself
00:55:13
Listen to this leadership podcast with Sarah Gibson Tuttle, CEO and Founder of Olive & June and discover the power of self-awareness, especially in big career changes.
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- [00:00]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
So at some point, I turned around and I said, as much as I love my clients, do I really love this life? Is this really what I was destined to do? I wasn't thinking about disruption. I was thinking, what am I going to do for the rest of my life? I love this. It's like a therapy session.
- [00:20]
David
So here you are, you're running this wildly successful brand, Olive and June, that's pulling in close to 1,100 million dollars in revenue a year. But as I understand it, you weren't allowed to even paint your nails as a kid. You know, what do your parents think of all this now?
- [00:39]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
I'm sure it's wild because my dad did not let me paint my nails as a kid. You're right. And I used to have a box of nail polish under my beds, secretly hidden. And I would paint my nails when he was away on business trips. And. And so. And red was especially his least favorite color. So that was my go to and continues to be my go to. So, you know, I think it's been a wild journey. They now talk about nails as if, you know, this was. This was something they've always loved about me. But we all know the truth. And I keep telling. I keep telling the truth, as much as people will listen.
- [01:18]
David
I guess that's why they say success has many fathers or many mothers or however you want to think about it.
- [01:23]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
You know, Exactly. Exactly.
- [01:25]
David
As we're doing this podcast. Podcast. You know, Halloween's coming up. What's the most popular nail polish color for the. For the October season?
- [01:34]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
You know what's so funny is that the seasons change probably about a month or two before the clothes change. Like the nail seasons change. And so we start seeing darker colors pop up in August. And no one's ready to wear those clothes. Cause it's too hot out still. But people are ready for those nails. So you'll see we have a ton. Halloween's a huge nail season, so we have a ton of designs that are out across our retailers. Everything from bats to literally cats hanging upside down to blood drip. I mean, Halloween is very, very big in nails.
- [02:09]
David
Yeah, I love it. You know, I want to get into how you're. How you're. Leading Olive and June. We'll do that in a few moments. But, you know, I want to stay. Stay on your childhood a little bit longer here. Can you tell me another story from your upbringing that shaped the. The kind of leader you are today?
- [02:26]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
I love this. It's like a therapy session. Early, early on this Tuesday.
- [02:31]
David
Oh, yeah. I'M known for being a great shrink.
- [02:35]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
Fantastic. My childhood was pretty idyllic from what I knew of it. I look back and my dad's pretty tough and he can be a very explosive person, personality wise. So I, I look back and I, I have, I'm raising my daughter in a bit of a different style, but I was really, I had the best older brother and I was a really pretty happy kid. I always felt a little bit, you know, I don't know if it was insecure, but for sure kind of scared of things. And I don't know where that really, that comes from. Cause my parents taught me every single day or every week of my childhood that I could do anything I put my mind to, but I always felt a little bit kind of not put together. And nails has always been my go to. When my nails were done, when they were painted, I felt like I could take on the world. And so it was everything from sneaking mannies, you know, my parent when my dad was away and completely avoiding his rules to when I got to my first job in finance. My weekly manicure was the only thing that made me feel like I know what I'm doing in this job. Because I was a philosophy major, a theater minor, and I had no idea what I was doing at JP Morgan when I started there. So nails has always been this through line for me of when I felt insecure, when I felt like I wasn't sure, you know, what to wear or how to act if my nails were done. I felt really like a full person and I could do anything.
- [04:09]
David
That's amazing. So your passion for nails goes way, way back and is just kind of rooted in your DNA.
- [04:16]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
I don't even think I knew that it was, if that makes sense. Like it was something that was a kind of a coping mechanism for me that I, and I just also thought, like, it's just nails. Like, that's what I think I thought. When I was growing up, I wasn't a big makeup person or hair. I mean, it was always nails for me. But when I look back, it's so obvious what a, what a thread it was for me in order to feel like my best self. And it's what I love about this business because I get to give that to everyone, everywhere at an affordable price. And I feel like, so proud of that.
- [04:47]
David
And you know, you, you really didn't get into the nail business right away. As you mentioned, you started out in finance and you, you, as I understand it, you, you spent 10 years as an equity trader starting at JP Morgan Chase and then later at Morgan Stanley. Tell us that story. How'd you, how do you, how do you get into that aspect world of the war of the business world?
- [05:09]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
It's kind of boring. My dad was in finance, so. So finance felt like the next logical step. All of his friends are in finance and my mom was in medicine, so her whole world was medicine. And so it was one or the other, I think in my mind. And medicine was. And I mean, even though I brought up blood dripping nails, blood and medicine are not for me. So on nails, yes, but not as my job. It was kind of boring. It was like. Well, he was doing this. I did a summer internship on the floor of the stock exchange and I loved it. I think my personality was really well suited for something that's found fast paced, that's demanding, that you have to make people happy. All those things I thrive in. And so I started interviewing in college, my senior year for jobs in finance and I got a job as an equity sales trader at JP Morgan. And really what that job is is servicing clients. It's really making people happy. You are, it's very similar to what I do today, but it's just in a different realm where you're making sure their trades are correct, you're making sure they have all the research and you're just. It's just client service in a different way. And so I did that and I think in some ways I was on autopilot because this is what my dad had done. It felt really comfortable. I was doing really well at it. I was getting promoted. And so at some point I turned around and I said, as much as I love my clients, do I really love this life? Is this really what I was destined to do? I don't know. I got a C minus in Intro to Econ twice. It feels like I probably wasn't. I really thought to myself, what do I want to be doing with my life? And that's where I started to really think about and soul search what was going to be next.
- [06:49]
David
So like you were in this high pressure environment though. I mean the finance world, equity trading, that's a lot of pressure that you're feeling every day. You know, what do you think that that really taught you that you carried into this next world, that you moved.
- [07:04]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
Into high standards for sure. Which of course my family had already taught me that. So that was a lesson I already knew. But then I knew it acutely. But everyone I was working for or with had incredibly high standards and was performing at an incredibly High level. And also time, right? Where if you're trading a stock, if one of my hedge fund clients was sending me an order to buy or sell shares of a stock, it's milliseconds, it's seconds that you have to get that done potentially, or you have to watch it super carefully over a period of time. And so you're really thoughtful of what takes time means and, and what, you know, now fast to market makes total sense to me. But I, I understand acting under pressure and under a time constraint. And so I think overarchingly, all of it was customer service, but it was also customer service at such a high level that, and with such high stakes that you learn, you learn what pressure looks like and you, you learn to either love it or hate it. I, I, I particularly like pressure. I think I, I perform very well under pressure better than when there's lack of pressure, frankly, which I see in my daughter. And I'm like, oh, goodness gracious.
- [08:17]
David
So like, you know, you're in this high pressure job, was there ever a moment or was there ever a time where, you know, you thought, oh my God, I've screwed up so bad. Can you tell us that story and how you got, how you survived it?
- [08:30]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
I mean, so many. There was one time with one of my hedge fund clients where I talked, not talked back to them, but I pushed back. I thought they were being really aggressive about what they thought their execution should be. And we got into it and I remember I had to talk to my boss later because they went to my boss and said I didn't like how that went down. You know, it's an interesting thing because you're balancing the external client, but you're also balancing your internal team. Right. And how much importance does your client get versus your team? And, and I think about that a lot today. I mean, I defended myself, obviously, and I think there was better ways. I was a bit reactive, which I get from my dad, speaking of our therapy session. But you know, I think when I think a lot about, I was, I was highly protective of my team and of their execution and of what, what they had done with the trade. And so I really had to learn the balance of internal versus external. And today we still think about that, right? Where it's our manufacturer versus our head of ops, or there's always people on both sides of a conversation or a disagreement or hopefully not a blowup, but anything below that is normal. And so really being thoughtful of both parties and how do you bridge the gap when you're far Apart on both sides of that disagreement.
- [09:55]
David
You go from getting C minuses and econ to getting into this world and actually being quite successful at it. But so, so when was this, when was this moment that you had where you said, hey, you know, it's time for me to walk away and, and step into something new?
- [10:11]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
I think the entire journey, every year or two, I thought to myself, what, what am I going to do with the rest of my life? I, I never really thought of it as a long term career, I think, but it was, it was, it was a decade long. And you know, I can again, I, I did pretty well at it. I was not the best person on that trading desk by far. But I, you know, again, you, you get promoted enough and you do well enough that you're doing okay in a cutthroat world. But probably right around like the seventh or eighth year in, I thought, I love making people happy, but this doesn't feel like I don't. I'm not excited to read the Wall Street Journal. I'm not excited to come to work. I'm waking up thinking, can I sleep in today? Can I say I'm sick? And it just. When I'm a bad version of myself, when I'm someone who doesn't want to do what's in front of me, I know I'm in the wrong place. And that could be in a friendship, it could be in a relationship, it could be at work. I'm very aware that when I start to disengage, something is amiss. And it doesn't mean you just give up, right? I mean, that was seven or eight years in and I was there for a decade, but I knew I had to start figuring out what my next step was going to be. I just had no idea. I was completely lost, by the way. I was, I just was getting married for, for the first time. I was kind of going through that journey and then I was not happy in my job, and then I was not happy in my marriage. And then it was like, oh goodness, like there's a tidal wave coming at me. But I did take two or three years to say to myself, okay, I need to change the course of my life and do something that really fulfills me and makes me feel just excited to be at work every day because I had given it again close to a decade and I wasn't really happy. So I think it was a slow, to answer your question, I think it was a slow evolution, but also a number of external factors that were pushing me to realize that maybe New York and finance and frankly, my relationship, all of it was kind of not working for me.
- [12:15]
David
And so, you know, you had this early on passion for the, for the nail business. And, you know, so tell me how you thought about, you know, going into that industry. And, you know, everybody talks about the importance of disrupting categories. You know, how did you think about disrupting that category?
- [12:34]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
It's so funny because disrupting wasn't even part of the, like, the lexicon at that point. You know, I wasn't thinking, I wasn't thinking about democratization, I wasn't thinking about disruption. I was thinking, what am I gonna do with the rest of my life? And I was interviewing for jobs in la, and I was sitting in a dry bar, which is a hair blowout bar for those who don't know it. And it was in its heyday, so it was when everybody loved dry bar. And I sat in that chair and I thought, this is the best experience I've ever had in a space like, I just love. There's cookies and there's this and there's that. And so. And then I went to get my nails done for the same interview. Because I was in LA interviewing. This is where the dry bar was. This is where they started. And the nail salon appointment experience was so starkly different than what the. What the dry bar experience had been. And I thought, why don't they have this for nails? And that, I think, sat in my head for a period of time. Cause I was so focused on getting into entertainment and changing my life. And I love tv. And so this was gonna be the new. The new. My new life was gonna be entertainment. And then at some point I was on vacation and my mind got to take a breath. And I remember sitting on a, you know, on a, you know, a pool chair by the pool and thinking, wait a second, I'm gonna do this. Like, this is. I've always loved nails. You know, it all started to click. And so I think that, you know, I don't. These ideas for me don't happen immediately. They take. They take time to marinate a bit. And that's something about my personality that I'm now acutely aware of, that I take a minute, I got to reshape things a few times. I have to really be thoughtful of what's going on and not rush to a decision. And so it's a little indecisive libra in me, but it also leads to the best decisions. And so I had that light bulb moment. But after I had been Marinating on it for a bit.
- [14:28]
David
For anyone who hasn't heard of Olive and June, tell us about the product you offer and what makes it so special.
- [14:35]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
Absolutely. And so for anyone who's never heard of it, Olive and June started as a nail salon chain. And so that's where the dry bar of it all came in. It started as a nail salon in 2013 and then we, we subsequently launched a product line. But Olive and June is your best friend for all things nails. The idea is that nails is this category in beauty, but also in personal care that feels a bit like a mystery to the consumer and we want to debunk everything for you. We. I love being people's best friends, so it works out quite well for my personality. But I love nails and I know that, you know, their stat is something like 96 or 98% of women feel better when their nails are done. So I wanted to give that to everyone. And so it started as a nail salon chain that we then launched products off of. And the reason we launched products was not so we could have like the best blue in our polish line. It was really so that you could be able to get a salon quality manicure or pedicure at home. So you are able to, at an affordable price point, really get what people were getting in salons but paying 80, 90, $100 for. And it's been incredible to see the growth because what we launched as like our original mani system kit, which is everything you need to get a salon manicure at home, has now expanded to products across the subcategories, whether that be press ons, obviously classic polish and multiple lines gel, et cetera. And so what we've been able to do is really to bring back the word from before, democratize that in salon experience for everyone everywhere. And it's been incredibly rewarding to be everyone's best friend for all things nails because not only have we had a ton of innovation in the space and changed the category because before all of in June, DIY was basically not part of nails. It was a forgotten piece for the consumer. And now we've led the at home Manny revolution, nail revolution. But in addition, we've been able to and innovate. Obviously every product, every product is better, it works, it lasts longer, et cetera. But we've also been able to take education and content and really put it on top of the product so that you're not lost in the category anymore. Not only do you have the best products that last longer than the competition, but you also have this education. And we do it in a ton of different ways, whether sometimes it's long form, sometimes it's really snackable content, but in a way where if your best friend was talking to you about how to do this, that's the voice that you're receiving it in.
- [17:06]
David
And you actually call it a university, right?
- [17:09]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
We do Olive University. Olive is my great grandmother and June is my grandmother. So it was named after these incredible women in my family who've inspired me. And we say all of you a lot because obviously it's the slang for I love you.
- [17:23]
David
Oh, that's good.
- [17:24]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
And so then Olive University is a key part of our lives at Olive and June.
- [17:31]
David
I love the background on the name, but that name is strange. I mean, you know, it's not something you'd naturally come up with, you know, I said, where the hell did that name come from? You know? But now I get it.
- [17:42]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
It's so funny because people, people have always said, well, you didn't put anything nail in it and you didn't put anything salon in it. And it's not. It's not obvious, right, like some of the other brands out there. And I said to everyone, and I got pushback constantly. And I said, if. And they're like, they're not gonna know what it is. I said, if they don't know what it is, then I haven't done my job right, because Apple is computers and et cetera, et cetera. So if you can't figure it out, then I have not done my job correctly.
- [18:09]
David
Yeah, well, I love it. I love the story about it, you know? You know, it's important for. For leaders to have truth tellers around them. You know, people tell it to them the way how they at least think it is. And as I understand it, your husband didn't think Olive and Gin was a very good idea. How'd you resolve that one?
- [18:27]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
He's one of my best friends. He's also my ex husband now, so. No, but that's not why. Don't worry, everyone. David did not just stumble upon the reason why, but he is one of my best friends and he to this day tells everyone, which I love. He's. He's like, I didn't think it was a great idea. Makes me laugh. And it's why we're such good friends still and why most of my friends, I would say, if not all, are no people. I don't wanna be surrounded by yes people. To your point. I don't want to be with people that just, yes, me or Just tell me what I wanna hear. Because I think life's perspective and creating something really special for people is about collective thought. And again to that point of marinating ideas and letting them, letting people ruminate over them and going back and forth. And I like people that make me a better version of myself, so my ex husband included. And so I like that I seek that in my relationships, in my life.
- [19:25]
David
So when you get feedback like that from a no person or somebody tells you this is not the way they go and how do you process it to either stay on course or make a necessary pivot? What's your decision making process?
- [19:39]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
My decision making process, I filter everything obviously through my own, you know, the information I have in my gut and in my instinct. But I would say that I will really weigh what people say if they are valued people in my life. Right. Obviously people say things to you all the time. And not everyone is a valued point of view. And you have to, you have to be able to discern between a valued point of view and just a point of view. But for those that are valued point of views in my life, I really sit with what they've said and I try to adjust if I think that if there's merit to it, often there is. Again, I surround myself with some pretty impressive, smart, curious people and I ask them their opinions on purpose. One of our advisors, Brian Sugar, who I talk about a lot, who's the founder of Popsugar, um, and he has a, he has a fund now called I believe Sugar. He, I remember said to me, don't go into retail, you're going into retail too fast and the price of your polish is too high at, at 12 or $14. I ignored him on retail because I thought he was wrong. And I agreed with him on the price of the polish and we lowered it to $8. And he was spot on. Correct. And so I try to. What I did is I went to the market and I looked at where things were selling and who was I trying to compete with and all of these things. And I, what I realized is that all the major names, all the household names, they're all at retail, but they're all at lower price points. So I was able to take the feedback and then do my own research. And often I take the advice. I mean I again, I try to really be. It's Olive and June is not the Sarah Gibson Tuttle Company. It's Olive and June for a reason. I'm creating it for the community. So to take feedback, whether it be from a Great advisor or our community or anyone in between is so critical to our success.
- [21:34]
Kula
Hey, everyone, it's Kula. Stay tuned to the very end of the episode because David and I have a brand new format that we're introducing in this week's episode of How Leaders Lead. At the very end of the episode, he and I are going to debrief some of the concepts that he talks about with Sarah Gibson Tuttle. So stay tuned because we're just going to get right into it. After his interview with Sarah wraps. Watch to the very end.
- [21:56]
David
You started this business like any solopreneur. You know, you're doing everything by yourself. What's been the hardest thing for you to give up? Because you've had to scale this business now to where it's $100 million brand. What's been the hardest thing for you to give up? You talked about how you've surrounded yourself with great people.
- [22:15]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
You know, everything, everything, everything is hard to give up. No, some things are easy to give up. I love giving up operations, so that's totally fine. I'm happy to give up, you know, dielines and projects like that on inserts. But no, I think the hardest thing is that there's creative that goes out that I don't always agree with. Like, I don't always like it or I don't personally think it's the right creative. But the thing is, is that you're building this for a community of people. You're not building it for yourself. And I always say to our team, we're here to serve the customer. This is not community is not just a word at all of in June. It's the heart and soul of our business. And so we have to create lots of different things for lots of different people so everyone feels seen and loved by the brand. And so there's often times where a creative direction is something that our team is really passionate about. I don't see it. It doesn't. But then I'm like, I'm just an n of 1. But that's very hard for me. But it has resulted in some of the most interact engaged with creative. And so I have to remember that and take a step back. And we hire amazing people to do their jobs, let them do it in the best way possible and see what the results are.
- [23:35]
David
As a creative person and I worked in the marketing world myself, you know, when you see something that goes out that it doesn't meet what is your standards? You, doesn't that just eat at you? And you know, how do you Put it in the parking lot.
- [23:49]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
A lot of. A lot of work. I mean, I work on myself. I try not to react as much. I mean, again, I kind of alluded to it, my dad's a pretty explosive person. So there's a lot of reaction and reactive tendencies that I have. But I work really hard not to have an immediate reaction and let things sit with me because often I come to the place where everybody else is. Sometimes it's a little late, and it's maybe a day or two later or six months later, but I get there. And so I have forced myself to kind of retrain myself to allow for that in our working environment. And frankly, I love it. It's benefited the business so much. And so I think when you see the results, right, where when you take a step back and you say, okay, I don't love this, let's see how it goes. But then the results are explosive, by the way. Even if they're not explosive, they could be explosive to the downside. But that's okay too, because you've learned something. Once you get the learnings, but especially when they're positive, you realize, like, oh, I don't. Well, first of all, I don't know everything, which you kind of already know, but it's a good humbling moment. But also, I am not, you know, I'm an N of 1. I am our core customer. Right. I am the core customer of all of in June. I do my own nails. I'm obsessed with. With nails. I, you know, I. I stress and I think about my color for the next manicure and next pedicure. But I'm still in n of 1. And so in this community, to your point at, you know, close to $100 million in revenue last year. Think of how many bottles of nail polish at $8, $9, that is. So if that's the case, then I. There's so many people in our community that we are here to serve.
- [25:33]
David
Yeah. And you've had explosive growth and it really took off. And in 2020, where I think you grew your business 16 times, you know, and launching your at home kit just before salon shut down, before COVID you know, how much of that success do you credit to preparation versus just good fortune?
- [25:53]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
I always think good fortune is important. I always think you have to time it right, Things have to go your way. You have to have luck in some capacity, but you have to be prepared for that luck. Obviously, we launched that mani system a year before COVID hit and so luckily we had the right product but to grow 16 times in a year from, you know, 2 million to 32 million in product sales was insane. And so. And then to continue to grow after that, you do need the wind at your back. And so I'm grateful for that. But I think the reality is, if we hadn't had the right products, if they hadn't been true innovation, if they, if we hadn't gone live every day for, I think it was something like, I don't even know, 40, 50 days in a row because people were just sitting there with their boxes and they didn't know what they were doing. And then continuing to have long and short form content and really supporting people, it would have been a flash in the pan. And that's why we've been able to scale to close to 100 last year. Be the only beauty company that got fully acquired last year, which was really a proud moment for us because we not only were prepared, but then we had incredible execution and support for our community. And we've always put the community first. We've never made it about us. It's always about their experience, their journey.
- [27:16]
David
You know, and during COVID and I think you alluded to this, you went live on Instagram 57 days in a row to teach people at home. I mean, that's impressive. And what did that season teach you about staying connected to your customers?
- [27:30]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
I have always, because of my background, been a customer service person. So it was just, it reiterated to me what people need in life, which is a pep talk. They need to feel like they can do anything. And we are here as a brand with incredible products. But also we are here with that pep talk. We are here to say, you can do this. It's not that hard. You just need to know a few things and you need the right products. And then you're gonna get this $40, $80, whatever it is, manicure at home, and you're gonna have done it yourself for a dollar. Right? So it's just that people need the support and the pep talk in order to get the confidence to try something. And so it really reiterated that for me. It solidified it for me. It didn't teach me anything new, but it was a nice reinforcement for, for what my vision was for the business and how to grow it.
- [28:26]
David
And now you have this massive following on social media, but, you know, sales obviously drive your business. How do you think about converting all the followers and this, you know, the community you have on social media into customers?
- [28:42]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
I actually don't think about social as an roi, as roi. I don't think about it as how do we convert. I think about it as how do you inspire? How do you educate? How do you make people happy? Because I believe I'm like a field of dreams person. For those who have seen that movie, if you build it, they will come. It's like my favorite thing to think about. But I believe that the more we inspire, delight, educate, make you happy, you will try our products. So to me, so social is not a conversion metric or funnel. It is about just being a joy and a light in people's lives so that when they're next at Target, Walmart, Walgreens, et cetera, that they say, oh, that brand is. That brand's so cute. Or I saw that nail art or oh, they made me laugh or ooh, I saw someone talking about how great those press ons are. And so they grab it and they try it.
- [29:42]
David
I love it. You know, how's AI impacting your business, Sarah?
- [29:47]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
What's funny is that we kind of love AI at Olive and June. We use it really to help structure our thinking. Whereas sometimes you want to do a plan for a strategy and you can just put what your thought is in AI and they can actually just give you the template for what you have to fill out. Which is so helpful because sometimes you're just stuck on how to even structure something. So it's not affecting, I would say, like our core business. Like, I don't see. I mean, they're not making nail polish instead of us. But I do find it to be a helpful tool in some of the operations or structural pieces of our business. Sometimes you're stuck on a creative idea and you just ask, like, what. What brand should we collaborate with? Doesn't mean we're going to reach out to those brands, but it gives you something fresh to think about. Because my team is incredible, incredibly talented, but we get tired. And so it's a nice to have, not a have to have for us. But I truly understand what it's doing to the creative field and I'm deeply sympathetic to that. So I think it's a balance for everyone on how they bring it into their business.
- [30:51]
David
I've heard you say that perfection is boring. How do you create a culture where people feel safe to experiment and to fail?
- [31:00]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
It's a bit of trial and error, right? Where I have to then own my mistakes pretty publicly or I have to own my missteps, but also create a bit of a casual environment so that on a call today, I can't remember what I said, but I said something and I said sorry if that came off wrong. And my head of creative started laughing and said, yeah, it came off so wrong, I'm so mad at you. And the whole team laughed. And the idea is that you're just yourself, you're earnest, you own what you do, but also that we're in an environment where people are really loving and kind to one another. And so you just model it really. But it is a bit of trial and error because I think perfection is boring and I think there's a lot of beauty in the imperfection. But also I have a team of rock stars. So they all want to be perfect, they all want everything to go right the first time. So you have to just continue to have those conversations. And also when things don't work, you learn so much. And I think that people forget that it's not just when things work that you learn, it's also when things don't work. And so then I will constantly reinforce, this is great. We learned our consumer doesn't like that color. Okay, we're never making a color like that again or we're not making it in press ons or whatever, you know. And so but again, you don't know until you have the data one way or the other that things are working or not working. And so I think it's a constant reinforcement.
- [32:37]
David
You know, one of the things I've noticed just in this conversation, Sarah, is you seem to have a very high self awareness and you know, and do you have a process that, that you use to really assess where you are at now in your career, in your business and then what you need to do to sharpen your own axe.
- [32:59]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
I think I was raised with a healthy amount of feedback and I have an older brother who loves to tell me he's talk about a no person. So I get a lot of feedback. And then again, like we said, I surround myself with people that are not yes people. But I enjoy growing. So I would say that I read a ton, I research a ton. But I also go to regular therapy. I really try to be aware of what I've done. And also I welcome. I tell my friends, like you can tell me anything, like if I've done something that has hit you wrong, tell me. I think that the only way that you become the best version of yourself is if you, it's not just one thing or one process. It's if everyone in your life plus is giving you the feedback plus you're open to it and you're showing that you're open to it. I also think that one thing that sometimes people don't realize is when someone's giving you feedback or they're frustrated with you, personal, professional, anything, if you show that you will accept it, they feel more comfortable in the future to give you more. And ultimately, that's sometimes the biggest hurdle or roadblock for you if you're defensive or you don't hear them, because then they don't want to do it ever again. Well, I don't want to work in an organization where people feel like they can't tell me when I've done something right or something wrong. And I don't want to be in relationships, friendships, romantic, otherwise, even with my daughter, where she can't tell me how she feels. So I try to be as open as I can, and then I find sometimes it's a little too much. Right. Like, it's like, okay, I get the feedback. All right, I'm just kidding. But I think it's really healthy. And so it's not necessarily a process, more so a lifestyle that I try to embody.
- [34:57]
David
Yeah. And one of the things that you mentioned, you said you do therapy, and it takes a lot of courage, A, to do therapy, and then, B, you know, do I think, admit that you do therapy. Where does that come from?
- [35:10]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
I think it's great to do therapy, I think. You know, it's funny. I had someone in my life once say that everyone who. Everyone who goes to therapy thinks they're better than everyone else. And I was like, no, they don't. They, in fact, think they need more work than everyone else, which is why they're in therapy. As idyllic as my childhood was in my own brain, when I look back, you know, I have a pretty complicated relationship with my father. I had some insecurities that I think I alluded to earlier. I don't. I just. I think I inherently knew that I had things to work on and things I wanted to work through. I've also been married twice and so. And divorced twice. And so there's been a lot of life lessons for me along the way. And I've wanted to make sure that I am always the best version of myself so that I can live the best life. Right. I mean, I'm. I only get one shot. I want to live it to the best of my ability. But also, my daughter is 10. How do I model for her, what real growth and evolution looks like? You do not have to be stuck in time and be this one person. It's important for her to know that growing and evolving is, frankly, a gift that we get in life. We get that gift to grow and evolve. You're not born as one person and you can never change. And so use that gift. Look at it as a gift. Look at it as great fortune, to use your words.
- [36:35]
David
I love that. You know, there's been so much Sarah, and I want to have some fun with you with my lightning round of questions. So are you ready for this?
- [36:41]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
Here we go. Here we go. Here we go.
- [36:43]
David
The three words that best describe you.
- [36:45]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
Loyal, loving, enthusiastic.
- [36:49]
David
If you could be one person for a day besides yourself, who would it be?
- [36:52]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
I really, really want to come back as my great grandmother, Olive, because I named Olive and June after them because I was obsessed. I know this is a lightning round, but I'm just gonna say one more thing. I was obsessed with my grandmother June my whole life. And then I realized, well, I was told recently by my godmother that actually it's Olive who I embody. And so now I really wanna come back and live life as her, because she had one beer and one cigarette every day, and she was life of the party. And so I just. I want to live that life for a day.
- [37:23]
David
I love it. Your biggest pet peeve.
- [37:25]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
I really don't like when people say I tried my best. I just don't. Of course you did. We don't need to say it.
- [37:33]
David
Who would play you in a movie?
- [37:35]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
My friends would say either Scarlett Johansson or Emily Blunt, which I'm fine with. Both. They're both icons.
- [37:40]
David
I would be, too. Well, maybe not me, but if I were you, I'd like that. And I agree. I've heard you're a huge Taylor Swift. What's your favorite Taylor era and why?
- [37:51]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
Reputation. You know, I am a. I also took the Harry Potter quiz. I'm a Slytherin. For which I don't present as a Slytherin for those who know, if you know, you know. But I am a Slytherin. And Taylor's reputation era is so badass. But I think Showgirl is gonna be my new fave. So we'll see. We'll see when that comes out.
- [38:11]
David
What's the one thing you do just.
- [38:13]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
For you every night? That I'm not out. You know, but if I'm home, I get into my bed. After I put my daughter down, I get into my bed and I just TikTok and I just scroll TikTok. Sometimes I read, but mostly I TikTok. And it's just, I get to be in this comfy. Bed in my comfy pajamas, having just showered, and I'm just relaxed. And that is the best thing that I do for myself.
- [38:34]
David
Besides your family, what's your most prized possession?
- [38:37]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
My great grandmother Olive had an engagement ring like it was her engagement ring. And I received it from my godmother when my grandmother passed. And so I turned it into a necklace. I just took it off last night because I had physical therapy, but I wear it almost every day. And so it's her engagement ring on a necklace, and I love it so much.
- [38:58]
David
If I turn on the radio in your car, what would I hear?
- [39:01]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
Already mentioned Taylor Swift. But if to give another answer, Eminem is my favorite.
- [39:06]
David
So TikTok and Eminem. No wonder you're on trend. No wonder you're kicking butt. What's something about you that few people would know?
- [39:15]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
That I ever chill. I think I give a very enthusiastic high energy. I think I act that way. But I do relax a lot. I am calmer than I appear.
- [39:26]
David
Great. Well, we're out of the lighting around. Great job. So you talk about your. Your young daughter. You know, how do you lead at home? Sarah?
- [39:36]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
I really try to be. First of all, I'm a person who believes in structure, boundaries, and, you know, making sure that my daughter knows what success looks like. So I can be. I wouldn't say strict, but I can be pretty strict on certain things, and then on other things, I'm completely unstrict about. So. And I'm really fun. So, you know, you have to have the right manners. You have to. You have to speak to people and look them in the eye. You have to be a person who reads and is curious in the world and works really hard. And so all of those things matter. And then what I also try to do is make her life as fun as possible and as filled with as much joy as possible. We're seasoned pass holders at Disneyland. We go often. You know, we really. I try to make sure she has a huge social life, and I do a lot. You know, I volunteer at the school. Like, I really try to make her life be. To understand that structure is really important and it's healthy, and it helps you be the best version of yourself while also having as much fun as possible. I am lucky because I work from home, so I'm able to structure. We have a remote company, so I'm able to structure my life a bit so that I can prioritize her, and my parents weren't able to do that. And so I really try to take advantage of that while also instilling the values that my brother and I grew up with that I really, deeply appreciate.
- [41:05]
David
You know, you talked about, you know, life, and the part of the joy of life is evolving and continuing to grow and making the most of that. Can you share with us what your. Your dream come true story would be.
- [41:18]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
In life or Olive and June or both?
- [41:22]
David
You know, how you look at it. What's your dream come true? Olive and June's part of it.
- [41:27]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
Well, I will say, and I think this is part of who I am. I have a ton of gratitude, and so I already feel like I'm living my dream life. I don't. I'm so grateful for all the success of Olive and June, and I'm so thankful for it and for my daughter. And I think, you know, I'm obsessed with her. So I feel very happy, and I do feel like I'm living a dream life. But for Olive and June to be the number one nail brand in the world is the reason why after selling a business and all of the success that that comes with that I am still, day in, day out, 24 7, founder, CEO and not leaving the business because I love my job and because there's so much left. We have so much left. Like, I don't want to leave it on the field. Right. I want to play the game. And so I get really excited to build Olive and June into the number one nail brand in the world. So that's probably the one dream that I haven't gotten.
- [42:25]
David
Well, you're on your way. And you know what they say about business. I always say the best thing about business is the unfinished business. And that's what seems to have you excited, is that pursuit of that number one goal. Last question here. What's one piece of advice you'd give to anyone who wants to be a better leader?
- [42:44]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
You can't escape hard work. Hard work and putting in the time and putting in the effort, putting in the research. Nothing can be done without true hard work. No matter what it looks like or appears or someone tells you, it is always about grinding to get to the best answer.
- [43:03]
David
That's great advice. And I want to thank you, Sarah, for taking the time to be on this show and to share your insights and congratulate you on the phenomenal success that you've had. And. And I love it that we haven't seen anything yet.
- [43:19]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
We haven't. And I'm honored to be here. You're truly. I love your podcast, so I'm very honored to be a guest.
- [43:30]
Kula
David, I loved this episode with Sarah Gibson Tuttle. She is so amazing. So amazing in fact, that I just sent her a DM on Instagram and told her how incredible I thought this interview was. And she actually just responded. So I'm curious, David, what's your reaction to your conversation with Sarah? I mean, you'd never met her before. What'd you think?
- [43:50]
David
No, I think Sarah's incredible. And I particularly loved her last answer, which is, you know, don't underestimate the power of just hard work. You know, I think so many people just want things so fast, so quickly and you know, they think they can get there with a, you know, 30 to 40 hour work week, working virtually, but they don't realize just how. If you really want to move up and, you know, achieve everything you can possibly achieve, you got to put the hard yards in. You got to put the work in. And I love that. She's obviously done that. She had vision for something different and she's pursued it and she, she's, she's not stopping. She's got goals and I love that.
- [44:29]
Kula
I do too. And if you'll notice, my nails are painted with olive and June nail polish. So quite apropos for this debrief conversation that we're going to have. I love some of the themes that Sarah touched on and that you two kind discussed in the episode. So I want to just dive into what some of those themes were so that we can give people listening to the episode something really tangible that they can take away to apply to their own leadership, to their own life, and to their own career journey. You know, David, it was really obvious to me after listening to this interview that Sarah is the type of founder and leader who really knows herself. She knows how she tends to make decisions and therefore she knows how to manage herself well so that she can show up for her team. And David, it's great when you work for a leader with high self awareness, but there are a lot of leaders listening to this podcast who don't work with leaders with high self awareness. In fact, they work for people that lack self awareness. And I'm curious your perspective on what to do in that scenario when the person that you're working with or for lacks self awareness.
- [45:32]
David
Well, I think first of all, you need to do your job really well so you have credibility. You know, once you have credibility, then you may have the opportunity to actually opine on what your, your boss could be doing better. But I think once you really do start putting some, you know, points on the board and you become very valuable to the company, valuable to that leader. You're inevitably going to have some, some opportunity to, to be able to, to, to coach the person that you work with. And you know, my, my belief has always been as a team member, your job is to make your boss better. Your job is to make your boss better, your company better. And so when you have those opportunities to do it, you should take them. And I think the best way to earn the credibility to help your boss become better is to do your job extremely well and become so valuable that that person really needs you. And so when you have something to say, they're going to listen to them, to you, unless they're tone deaf. And sometimes that's a situation that does exist where just people, leaders are in jobs maybe shouldn't be in, they're probably not going to get to a higher job because they are tone deaf. They don't have high enough self awareness. But you know, I think if you're a really good member of the team, you know, you try to help everybody get better around you.
- [46:48]
Kula
I love that, I love that and that that theme of just really knowing yourself comes up a lot in the episode. And I love when Sarah talks about that moment that she realized that she was in the wrong role. She worked in finance for 10 years until 1 day she kind of finally admitted to herself that she didn't like her life or, and the way that it was shaping up and she didn't like the work that she was doing and she had the self awareness and willingness to admit that and make that pivot. And so obviously she pivoted and now she's running this hundred million dollar nail brand.
- [47:22]
David
You know, Pukul, I think one of the things that's interesting about that and I write about it, my book called Taking People with you and we teach it at the, you know, in all of our leadership programs is, is you need to know yourself to grow yourself. The, the only way you can ever grow is to really know who you are and know what your capabilities are. And know frankly, in the case of what you just talked about, if you happen to be one of these leaders has low self awareness, you, you learn that you've got low self awareness and you need to move it up the ladder. But you know, I think she understood the importance of, of doing what you love and, and she, she was very good at what she did. You know, she was doing well. But you know, she didn't have that, that, that positive buzz you got to have when you go to work she wasn't like, as Warren Buffett, you know, says tap dancing to work, you know, she's going through the motions and she know, she knew that life could be more than that. And, you know, I love how she, she pursued her passion for people listening.
- [48:25]
Kula
Who might be in a similar spot of thinking about transitioning in their career. How do you do that? Well, so that you don't burn bridges or, or create tension with the company or industry that you're leaving, it's very.
- [48:39]
David
Important to try to grow where you're at first. You know, look, look where you're at and, and say, hey, you know, these are the things I want to do. Can I do it at this company? And then, you know, go to whoever you work with and try to pursue that opportunity if it's there, if it's not there. I always feel like, you know, you need to be doing your job well enough to where you can actually have a communication with your, with your, the person that you work for, and you kind of let them know what your frustrations are or where you, what you want to do with your life. And they hear that, and you make sure that they do hear that. And they either try to help you do it at your company or when it's time for you to move on, you know, it's not a real big surprise, you know, because you've been honest with them about, you know, how you're feeling about the company and what you really want to do in your life. So, you know, I say you never really surprise people. And then when you leave, make sure you're leaving and going to a place that's going to help you pursue your passions, and it's going to help you grow yourself, you know, so know yourself so that you know how to grow yourself and know where to go. So you, you move with purpose. Don't. Don't move, you know, just to move. You know, very few people change their lives by just crossing the street and doing a job somewhere else with just maybe a little bit more money, you know, you know, that's, that's really shouldn't be the reason why you move. You should move when you know that you, you can make a quantum leap in your learning and in your growth. And I always feel like the biggest thing you can do is when you're not growing, try to figure out how you can grow where you're at. And if you can't grow where you're at, go somewhere where you can.
- [50:18]
Kula
I love it. That's a great dovetail into this final kind of theme and concept that I want to debrief with you, David. Sarah shares in the interview that something like 96% of women feel better about themselves, themselves when their nails are done. And honestly, I agree. So before this episode, I literally painted my nails so that I talk with my hands, so that when you see my hands, I'll look put together because my nails are done. And I feel a little bit more elevated and chic because I painted my nails. And I think that what she's really getting at is the little things that you can do on a personal level that boost your self esteem and confidence and help you show up in a way that's more positive so that you can contribute in a more meaningful way to the people around you. So, David, I want to know, is that something that leaders need to be thinking about? Is it important? And what are some of the things you do to boost your self esteem?
- [51:12]
David
Well, first of all, I love the fact that she understands that. She understands the power of nails. She understands that you feel better because you've got those white nails with that white sweater and your, your white earphones, you know, and, and that's why she has so many different colors. That's why she has seasonal nails. That's why Halloween's a big period for her, because she knows people like to lift themselves up and lift other people up and create almost conversations around their nails. And, and I see that happening all the time with women that, that I happen to have the opportunity to hang around. You know, they, they, they like looking nice, they like being on trend. And I think that's really powerful. So, you know, what do I do to lift myself up? I mean, I don't know. I guess probably the most important thing I do is try to stay in shape. I think it's just when I work out every day, I really enjoy that and it picks me up. And I like having my whoop watch because I like to see my progress. I like to understand what my performance is. And so because I'm regular and disciplined on this front, I'm constantly making progress. It's reflected in my whoop. And so that lifts me up. And I'll tell you, the other thing that I have a great appreciation for is being dressed properly. I like to wear things that are stylish, look good, and do the best I can with what little I have.
- [52:50]
Kula
I love that. It feels almost silly for me to say, but it actually makes a real impact in the way that I show up and the attention that I have to share with the People that I work with and with the actual work that I'm doing. When I look good by painting my nails or for you wearing something nice and on trend, you feel good. And when you feel good, you're more fun to be around. Everyone has a better time and ultimately the product that you produce is just going to be better.
- [53:20]
David
You know, if you talk to anybody in the fashion industry or the clothing industry, you know, what do they tell you to buy? They tell you to buy stuff that you feel confident in totally. And so I think that that's, that's something that, you know, people should constantly be working on is their confidence level. They, you know, you should be working on something that makes you feel good, makes you project, makes you, you know, have this sense of confidence that can inspire, assuming you have competence. I always say competence goes along, you know, with, you know, with confidence. You can't have the confidence without the competence. But if you have that, then I think you should be looking for ways to lift yourself up.
- [54:05]
Kula
Hey, Olive and June started out as an in person nail salon. And now Sarah Gibson Tuttle is growing it to over a hundred million dollars. And that is a whole heck of a lot of $8 bottles of nail polish. So don't ever underestimate what feeling good about yourself can do for a business.
- [54:22]
David
And how about the Olive and June story? She names it out for her grandmother and great grandmother and you know, I thought it was sort of a clunky brand name, but it seems to be working. $100 million isn't bad.
- [54:35]
Kula
Absolutely. David, thanks so much for the debrief. I really enjoyed. I always enjoy talking to you, especially when I'm so obsessed with the person that you interviewed.
- [54:46]
David
Well, we try to have people that on, on the show that everybody's obsessed with. But I'm really glad you love Sarah.
- [54:52]
Kula
Well, that does it for today's episode of How Leaders Lead. Be sure to tune in next Thursday for David's conversation with Nick Green. He's the co founder and CEO of Thrive Market. And you are going to love this episode.