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How Leaders Lead with David Novak
#277: Jimmy Roberts, Emmy Award-winning broadcaster, NBC & Golf Channel – Curiosity builds connection
01:10:18
Listen to this leadership podcast with Emmy-winning sports broadcaster Jimmy Roberts and discover how curiosity can help you make better connections.
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- [00:00]
Podcast Host
Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of How Leaders Lead with David Novak. The 2026 Winter Olympics kick off tomorrow and there is no better guest to get you in the spirit than the guy who has brought Olympic stories to life for more than four decades. Today we've got Jimmy Roberts on the podcast. He's a 13 time Emmy Award winning broadcaster for NBC and the Golf Channel. In this episode, you'll not only hear incredible stories from the Olympics over the years, but. But you'll also hear how Jimmy's curiosity fuels his connection. It'll help you listen more deeply and connect more authentically with the people that you lead. So whether you're leading a team, trying to build stronger relationships, or just looking for a fresh way to see the world around you, you are going to love this conversation with Jimmy Roberts. Enjoy.
- [00:51]
Jimmy Roberts
That's unheard of. Nobody'd ever done it before. Nobody will ever do it again. I know this is going to sound crazy. I think it's the greatest athletic feat that I have ever thought of.
- [01:08]
David Novak
We're all tuned into the Olympics right now. And when you watch the games today, what are you paying attention to that most viewers probably miss?
- [01:18]
Jimmy Roberts
I'm the strangest sports animal because I never got into it for the numbers, the results. I mean, of course, you know, I care deeply about a lot of that stuff, but to me it's always the stories, you know, and that's what I pay attention to. And that's why, that's one of the reasons, I think, that the Olympics have always been so successful. Because we end up caring about Romanian weightlifters and, you know, Japanese tennis table players. Because Roon Arledge, who was the ultimate leader when it came to sports television and a real innovator, he created a phrase and a concept that today people use so liberally. And I would imagine that the majority of people who use it don't have any idea where it came from or what it means. And that's up close and personal. And the idea was when ABC Sports first started doing the Olympics in the early 60s, they had to figure out a way to get people to get invested in what was happening. And the majority of these athletes are going to be people they didn't know. So they did these small little features which introduced you to these people and eventually gave you a rooting interest. They got you up close and personal. And for any storytelling, I think that's where it's at. You know, you gotta care, right? And you can't just care about someone with a number on their back. You want to know their story. And that's why the Olympics are just the greatest. Everybody has a story, I like to say, but Olympic stories, to me, these are extraordinary people. I mean, if you think about best.
- [02:58]
David Novak
In the world, you know, right.
- [03:01]
Jimmy Roberts
I should have done the research on this, and somewhere back there I have the numbers. But if you think about what the odds are of becoming an Olympian, they're microscopic. These are special people. So I love these stories.
- [03:13]
David Novak
You know, you mentioned Rune Arledge as a leader. What did you learn, you know, watching him in action and what made him such a unique character as it relates to leadership?
- [03:24]
Jimmy Roberts
Towards the end of my time with ABC Sports and ABC News, and I worked for both. I worked a little bit with Rune, and I mean, it was really like the great and powerful Oz. I remember the first time I met him, I was summoned to his office at the Calgary Olympics. You know, you'd see this guy passing in the hall, and he was like the. He was like the head of state or something like that. It was always a bunch of people scurrying after him. And I just remember how unafraid he was. You know, he had an idea, and this is what he wanted to execute. But the thing that I remember was how collaborative he was. He wanted you to do what he wanted you to do, but he wanted your perspective, he wanted your help, and it was very clear that you were part of his team. And I just. Through the years, I've just really. I have appreciated that as equality in leaders. And. And I know. You know, I hope we get an opportunity to get to this. Our mutual friend Mark Messier, with whom I wrote a book a few years ago, to me is the ultimate leader. And this is a guy who never even went to college. I don't want to drone on and on. We'll get to it if you want to talk about it.
- [04:43]
David Novak
Yeah, no, but let's. You know, he was the captain.
- [04:45]
Jimmy Roberts
I mean, he.
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David Novak
You know, he was hall of Fame hockey player, took the Rangers to the champ. What do you think is his single greatest trait that makes him a great leader?
- [04:54]
Jimmy Roberts
You know, that's. You're in my wheelhouse now because I spent two years with Mark during the pandemic, you know, when it was pretty lonely out there. And we just talked endlessly, not only about his life, but about his perspective on things. I mean, and this is the only guy at that point who had ever captained two different teams to a Stanley Cup. And, you know, there are people out there who might say, well, what does it mean? To be a captain of a team in hockey, it means a real lot. It really is a significant thing. And Mark, you know, there was just so much perspective from. My favorite story from the time that I spent with him involves a guy named Darren Langdon. Darren Langdon was a journeyman player who had never played in the NHL. I think it was 1994, the year it might have been the year after they won the cup. So it was 95. The Rangers had a game in Montreal and they had an injury, so they needed to call up someone from their farm system. They ended up calling up Darren Langdon, who had never played in the NHL. He was from rural Canada, so. And so just think about, you know, what's on this guy's mind. His life is hockey, but he's never played in the NHL. So now he's going to go play with the Stanley cup champions at the Montreal Forum, the most famous arena in the game. So you can just only imagine how momentous this moment is. So, Langdon, the way it worked with the Rangers then, and I don't know how it is now, is that whenever the team had to go to the arena for a game or a skate, they had to wear coat and tie. And so the Rangers get to Montreal, and it's the day before the game, and Langdon shows up at the arena and he's wearing a sweater and khakis, and, you know, all the guys are really ribbing him. And, you know, he's embarrassed. He looks around, everybody's wearing a coat and tie. And Messier's incensed. You know, he looks at everybody else, says, what are you doing? That may, you know, that may be the best that he owns. Why would you do that to him? So anyway, the skate is over. The team goes back to the hotel. Mark calls up a guy that he knows in Montreal, a tailored. God only knows how Mark knows a tailor in Montreal. But he gets this guy to come to the hotel and he fits Langdon for a custom made suit. The next day, they. They all, you know, they wake up and there's a message for Langdon that there's something for him in the, in the lobby. They send it up. It's this custom made suit that this guy has made overnight. You know, he puts this thing on and he probably never even owned a blazer before. He puts this custom made suit on and goes to the game. Must have felt like a million bucks. Scored a goal. The Rangers win. So what's the moral of the story? And this is the beauty of it. Mark said, if you have someone who's A teammate, and you need them, why wouldn't you want them to feel as good about themselves as they possibly could? And I'm thinking to myself, you know, duh, that's just so intuitive. It. I mean, I would say it doesn't cost anything. It cost Mark a suit, but, you know, that to him was nothing. But the point is, it doesn't really cost you anything as a leader to make somebody feel good about themselves and feel worth. And that's what I get back to, you know, with, with the Arledge story was he was, you know, had his opinions and was unsparing, but he was grateful in my experience. And, you know, I remember him making me feel good about the work that I did. And that was meaningful and motivating.
- [08:37]
David Novak
Absolutely. And, you know, you know, staying on the Olympics for a while here, you know, when you walk into Olympic host city and it's day one for Jimmy Roberts, you know, what's the first thing you look for as a storyteller?
- [08:50]
Jimmy Roberts
I look for the unusual. I think that if you read the headlines, there are a lot of things which are that everybody knows. I look for the stories that maybe not everybody knows. I think the best story that I ever did was at the Sydney Olympics about a guy named Eric Musambani. Eric Musambani got this nickname, Eric the Eel. And he was not qualified for the Games by numbers, but he got what they called an Olympic wild card berth, which meant that the ioc, the International Olympic Committee, would include certain athletes from countries that hadn't necessarily qualified. But in the interest of trying to grow the sport, they would include these athletes and give them the Olympic experience, maybe to inspire people in their own country. So here comes this guy from Equatorial guinea, because he was the lowest of qualifiers. He was in the first heat. Well, there were only three people in the first heat. The other two wild card qualifiers also, they both false started. So what ended up happening was here's this Eric the Eel swimming by himself. Now, you got to remember Australia. You know, swimming in Australia is like what the NFL is in the United States. I mean, they love it. So this guy dives in the water, and maybe for the first 15 meters, he looked like he knew what he was doing, but it clearly became evident that he was out of his element. And, you know, it became a thrashing stroke and then literally a dog paddle. I mean, he was in the pool by himself. And I remember that some of the athletes might have. Some of the spectators might have started off laughing, but by the time he got about halfway there, they Were cheering endlessly. And to me that was the Olympics. This guy trying his hardest, unconcerned about what anybody else would think. And I remember I put a line in the script, I said, could you do it? You know, I don't know if I could, but I love that story. I think that's my favorite Olympic story.
- [11:17]
David Novak
You covered your first Olympics in 1980. And I'm pulling up a picture of you back then. What's the story from your first Olympic experience that taught you an important lesson?
- [11:30]
Jimmy Roberts
I think that I was so starry eyed. Look at that. That looks just like me, doesn't it?
- [11:38]
David Novak
Love the hair.
- [11:39]
Jimmy Roberts
So I was starry eyed at that point. You know, those Lake Placid Olympics were. I mean, they'll never be another Olympics like that. That was a tiny little town. You know what happened? I always say that I felt terribly sorry for Eric Haydn because the miracle on ice happened there. The United States beating the Soviets. And just next door at the outdoor rink, Eric Haydn won five gold medals. I was starry eyed at that point. Those Lake Placid Olympics were. I mean, they'll never be another Olympics like that. That was a tiny little town. You know, the miracle on ice happened there. The United States beating the Soviets. And just next door at the outdoor rink, Eric Haydn won five gold medals. Everything from the 500 to the 10,000. That's, you know, people don't follow speed skate. That's unheard of. Nobody'd ever done it before. Nobody will ever do it again. I know this is going to sound crazy. I think it's the greatest athletic feat that I have ever thought of. It's like winning the hundred meter dash and the marathon and everything in between. So what did I learn? I learned that you gotta kind of keep your feet on the ground. I think the bigger the event, the more grounded you need to stay. And I think there are applications in business for that. A big deal, a lot going on, you know, you need to take a deep breath. I always say the best advice that I ever got as a broadcaster was a friend of mine. He passed away last year. Al Troutwig. He was a terrific broadcaster. He was in my wedding. We were dear friends. He always used to say, however slowly you think you're speaking, you're not speaking anywhere near as slowly as you think you're speaking. And what ends up happening, the more quickly it's the adrenaline flows and then your lips can't keep up with your brain. And there's a corollary in business or in whatever it is that we do on a day to day basis. Take a deep breath. I wrote a golf book years and years ago, and it was called Breaking the Slump. And it was all about how great players conquered their worst times in the game and what you can learn from it. And one of my favorite stories from the book came from Davis Love III, whose father, Davis Love Jr. Was a very, very good player and a very good teacher. And Davis Love Jr. Went to the University of Texas where his coach was Harvey Penik, the very famous golf coach. And one day, Harvey's on the range, or Davis junior's on the range hitting balls. And Harvey walks by and he says, hey, Davis, what do you got there? He says, well, coach, I got a seven iron. He says, davis, see that green out there? I need you to get me some six irons on that green. And Davis says, coach, that green is 155 yards away. Why would I hit six iron? He said, because sometimes the answer is to try less hard. Now I just think that's genius because what wouldn't we do better if we would all just take a little bit of a deep breath? It doesn't mean that you don't try hard. It just means. Or apply yourself fully. It just means sometimes the answer is to take a deep breath, take your foot off the accelerator, and maybe understand that cruise control is more effective sometimes.
- [15:18]
David Novak
That's interesting because at Yum, one of the things we taught our leaders was the importance of untrying, you know, which is, you know, I think a great phrase. And, you know, I want to take you back a little further here. You know, what's a story from your childhood, Jimmy, that really shaped the kind of leader you are today, the kind of storyteller you are.
- [15:40]
Jimmy Roberts
I was a lacrosse player, and I was a decent lacrosse player. I was the captain of my high school team. I aspired to go and play further. I never did. But I remember that we were playing a team that my school had never beaten in the history of the two schools. And we ended up. I had a really good game. Remember, it's like it's yesterday. I had four goals and two assists, and I was really proud of myself. But I made a critical mistake at the end of the game. We were up by one goal, and the coach told me, I want you to take the ball and I don't want it to leave your stick. I want you to run around. I don't care if they kill you. You are not to throw the ball to anybody. Blows the whistle, we start, we're up by one Goal. You know, never beaten this team before, and they collapse on me. A couple of defenders collapse on me. And my instinct took over because they are in front of the goal, was a teammate of mine completely unguarded. There wasn't anybody within 25 yards of him, and I threw him the ball and he dropped the ball. They ended up running down the field and scoring. The game ended up being tied, and because of a lightning situation, they called the game. So there was a victory in the sense that it was the first time that we ever didn't lose to them, but it was a loss for me, personally. I still haven't reconciled if I feel I did the right thing or I did the wrong thing about that. But I know that that was four decades ago and I still think about it. I don't know if I answered your question, but that's something from my youth that I remember.
- [17:37]
David Novak
When you think about it, you know, how does that impact how you do your job today or how do you think about things? Is that. Do you got to share the ball, keep the ball? I mean, what's the takeaway here?
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Jimmy Roberts
Well, I am a big believer in share the ball. I mean, maybe that's just because that's who I am.
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David Novak
That was the instinct that took over there, right?
- [17:57]
Jimmy Roberts
Yeah, it really was. And I mean, it may not have worked out. Maybe the lesson, David, is that it may not have worked out that time, but I know that's the right instinct. To share the ball. Yeah, judiciously.
- [18:10]
David Novak
What's something, Jimmy, when you think about how you were raised, that you. You probably didn't really appreciate until now?
- [18:21]
Jimmy Roberts
Well, I think I appreciated this when I became an adult. You know, my parents were parents of the, you know, the Depression or the second in the Second World War. My father was a veteran and was fought and injured and was decorated Second World War. My mother was a schoolteacher. I had a pretty conventional upbringing. And I wouldn't say they were the strictest parents. They were strict. I mean, I was the third of three children, so by the time I rolled around, they probably had had it. You know, it's like, yeah, whatever. But my parents were very moral, you know, I mean, they believe that what's right is right, and they weren't going to ever tell me what I should think is right. But to this day, I can't get away from it. And I'm one of those crazy people. If I see people driving on the shoulder during a traffic jam, it makes me nuts. People cutting in line.
- [19:21]
David Novak
You must be very frustrated living in New York then.
- [19:24]
Jimmy Roberts
Yeah. But I do think, again, one of those things that I may not have reconciled yet, but I think that that shaped me knowing where True north is. And I think the challenge in life is kind of getting comfortable with it and just feeling okay about it.
- [19:47]
David Novak
I understand that when you were in high school, you used to write and deliver a joke a day. Is this.
- [19:55]
Jimmy Roberts
Well, you've done your research. Is.
- [19:56]
David Novak
Is this when you realized you. You were destined for a broadcast broadcasting career?
- [20:02]
Jimmy Roberts
Yeah, it's funny. It was called the North House joke of the day. I just went to a big reunion, big high school reunion. I won't tell you what number it was. It was. There were. It was a lot of years, but when I got. When I got there, one of the first things everybody said was the North House joke of the day. It's the guy from the joke of the day. And, you know, there's always a little bit of a ham. But the interesting thing was when I got into. When I graduated college, I went to the University of Maryland. Go, Terps. I didn't want to get in front of the camera because I remember thinking to myself, I didn't want to be the person who everybody passed judgment on. I loved the creative aspect of what the media was about, but the whole idea that. And I would look. And back then it was in the newspapers and maybe on the radio, and people would criticize the way this person went about his job or the way this person looked. And I thought, who the heck needs that? So I worked for behind the Camera for eight years for ABC Sports, then ABC News, then ABC Sports. And in 1988, I thought I was going to lose my job because there was some corporate restructuring and I had to kind of do an inventory and say to myself, well, what do I. What do I do? You know, what talent do I have? And I was writing and producing these features for, you know, some pretty famous people. Howard Cosell, Jim McKay, Keith Jackson. I mean, those may be names that young audiences don't recognize, but they were lions of the industry. And I said, well, if I can write and produce these things for them, maybe I can. You know, why can't I do it for myself? So I took a bunch of these scripts, you know, these stories that I had done, I took and I had written. I took their voices off, put my voice on. I. Back then, you actually had to make a tape and sent it out. I sent a tape out, got a bunch of nasty rejection letters, all of which I still have. And there was one place that was Willing to give me a job. And back then, it was a really obscure little cable operation in rural Connecticut. It was called espn. And, you know, to this day, one of the funniest things when I think back on it was I came from ABC Sports, which at the time was the leader in the industry. It was as big as, you know, as big as there was in the industry. And I went to this espn, and I remember I picked up the phone one day early on in my time at espn, and I was on the phone with somebody, and I said, hey, hi, my name is Jimmy Roberts. I'm from espn. And there was silence on the other end of the phone. And the woman said, s, P, N. What is that? Now? Can you imagine? That's like. I mean, can you imagine there's anybody in America, sports fan or not, who doesn't know what ESPN is now? But back then, I mean, we are talking about the backwaters of media. So it was an interesting time, but that's how I got started. And I'm really lucky I ended up there as my first step, because I could fail, and I failed a lot. And I could fail in relative obscurity. I like to say that if there was YouTube back then, I'd be waiting tables right now.
- [23:31]
David Novak
You know, you're a really nice guy, you know, and one of the things that journalists have to do and, you know, I'm sure if you're a nice guy, it might be even harder to do, is you gotta ask the tough question, you know, so, you know.
- [23:47]
Jimmy Roberts
How.
- [23:48]
David Novak
Do you think about that aspect of your job?
- [23:51]
Jimmy Roberts
Boy, I tell you what, that lives deep inside me. And it rankles me when I see people who are avoiding asking what needs to be asked. I have asked questions at times that ruined relationships. I don't want to get specific. You know, there's some pretty famous people. I actually did a commentary about this on my show a couple of weeks ago. So this one's no secret. Fuzzy Zeller, after the whole episode with Tiger woods in 1997 at Augusta National, I had some things to say about that. Fuzzy never talked to me from that day until the day he passed away, wouldn't talk to me. I think you got to do what you got to do. I honestly believe that when you have a microphone in your hand and you work in the media, your job is to represent people on the couch. You're there to ask questions that they want the answers to. Now, number one is you have to be respectful. I think Tom Callahan, the just brilliant journalist, wrote a lot about Golf and the NBA. He did a story on Larry Bird, and Bird was famously reticent. He didn't really do an awful lot of talking to a lot of people. I think Bird asked him, he said, well, what are you trying to do here? And he said, my objective is fair to you, true to me. And I think that's a really. I think that was the phrase. But that really represents, I think, what you gotta do. You gotta be respectful of people, you gotta give them respect, you know, but that doesn't mean that there aren't questions to ask. I worked for Howard Cosell for a couple of years on a show he had called Sportsbeat. And I get asked all the time, what did I learn from Howard? And I think the most important takeaway that I had, and I don't know how much I learned from him in this regard, but my takeaway was Howard had the ability to ask the biggest names in entertainment media, sports, politics. He could ask them anything and not lose them. And that is the trick of being a good interviewer, I think, is being able to ask the questions that need to be asked and at the same time, not losing your subject. Look, anybody can ask really, really hard questions. What might happen if you turn your subject off? What good is that? You know, you're going to get one word answers or maybe they'll just get up and walk away, which has happened to me.
- [26:43]
David Novak
Well, let me ask you a question. And you, you talked about Fuzzy Zeller, when he's made his comment about Tiger wanting to would probably serve fried chicken at the master's dinner. You know, you lost that friendship. He never talked to you again. You know, would you ask that question differently? I mean, you know, you lost him, right? I mean, what would you do differently?
- [27:07]
Jimmy Roberts
Yeah, well, let me give you a little context on that. So I had had a really good relationship with Fuzzy, but I wasn't alone. Fuzzy was good to, to everybody. He was a great guy. He was a great guy who did a stupid thing. And the, the details, it wasn't really like asking him a question. But a couple of months after I was a guest on a radio show, the host asked me, he said, do I think Fuzzy Zeller is a racist? I said, fuzzy Zeller is not a racist. Fuzzy Zeller's a great guy who did a stupid thing, you know, And Fuzzy happened to hear the radio interview, and that was what happened. Now, I tried to reach out to him and have a discussion with him about it, but gets back to fair to you, true to me, being true to me.
- [27:56]
David Novak
That's a good thing. So literally, you developed your style. How long did it take you as a leader to develop what is now you? Is it when you started out working? How much have you evolved versus where you were?
- [28:12]
Jimmy Roberts
I hope I'm still evolving. I hope I'm still learning. I learn all the time. I just started this new business. We've got this show on Golf Channel on Tuesdays. It's called the Big Swing Shameless Pop. And it's all about the golf industry. And I am, at my age, I have a business partner who I am learning. Like, I feel like I'm in sixth grade. And I'm grateful that my mind and my personality still kind of allow me to. To recognize my own ignorance or naivete. I think that I was so fortunate. David, you must feel the same way. Be a sponge. I tell this to my kids. There's no shame in not knowing, right? Learn. And it's okay to take from people aspects that you admire from them. And I think it's only a fool who doesn't. And then getting back to what I said before, you got to be able to look in the mirror, because people are not going to universally love everything you do. But if you know it's the right thing, if you're goal oriented, I really believe, and you're decent to people, that's a companion thing. You got to be decent. Because not all decisions are easy. Look, you know that, you know the businesses that you've led, you got to make some hard decisions. But if decency governs you and it's the way you go about your business, you can look at yourself in the mirror and you can sleep at night.
- [29:48]
David Novak
You know, speaking of learning, you've covered so many different events from the Olympics, heavyweight championship bouts, Super Bowls. What do you think that diverse set of experiences has really given you?
- [30:03]
Jimmy Roberts
I think diversity of experience is just nothing but great for everybody. I try and talk to my kids about that in our house. I'm married to a woman who was a very accomplished network television news producer who could care less about sports. Her sentence in life is that she has three sons, you know, one of whom works for the NHL. The other one was a sportscaster, has been a sportscaster, and the other one is about to graduate college, and all he wants to do is be involved in sports. So. But I, you know, I encourage them to look at their mom and see what her interests are. And it's all about diversity of thought. It really is. I just think that that gives you better perspective on life, you know, Learn.
- [30:58]
David Novak
You know, to produce at the level that you've produced and to do it for the number of years that you've done it. You gotta have elite discipline. You know, what process have you built into your schedule to consistently perform at a high level?
- [31:14]
Jimmy Roberts
Okay? So I feel very strongly, again, I hate to bring my family back into this, but I've been telling my kids this forever. There are three things that I think are essential for me. A lot of that has to do with the fact that I grew up with what I now recognize as a learning disability. I had, you know, adhd, which, you know, half the population does. But that meant that I just had to try harder or I had to find my lane, find my process. And so for me, I tell that my kids, and I tell young people when I talk to them also, this three things important. Number one, work hard. And, you know, that may seem kind of obvious, but you need to work hard all the time. You know, nobody should outwork you. That doesn't mean you need to be ragged, but you need to feel that again. You look in the mirror, did you give it your all? And I think a lot of that has to. That came from my participation in sports because, you know, if you failed, a lot of times you could look at yourself and say, did I work my hardest? But the next two things I think apply to everybody as well. Work hard, be organized, and be prepared. When I first got to NBC, I didn't do a lot of studio broadcasting. I did a lot of feature reporting and. And live reporting from the field. But I got to NBC and I ended up doing a lot of studio work. I hosted the halftime of Notre Dame for a bunch of years in Wimbledon. And this sports update that I did, hundreds and hundreds of them through the years, maybe thousands, who knows? But it was being in a studio, and it meant developing a different skill and what I needed to do to kind of make sure that we have this saying. It's, you know, somebody with my best friend who was a producer would always say to me, had the telecast go, and I would say, well, there's no blood on the floor. That's, you know, that's job one, you know, get through it cleanly. And for me, what that meant was I had to be organized because, I mean, you look around and you look at people like, you know, Mike Tirico. I'll leave it at that. He's my colleague, longtime friend. He is a freak. He is so exceptionally talented. And I worked one of his first shows with him at ESPN in the studio Together. And I remember thinking to myself, this guy just has a talent that's exceptional. He really is extraordinary. And there are people like that who just are really good at it. Bob Costas was good at it. Jim Nance is good at it. You could go on and on. I wasn't. So I had to figure out, how can I make sure that there's no blood on the floor? Okay, so for me, that's make sure that I rolled into that studio every time I'm in front of a camera. I want to make sure I am prepared. I want to make sure that there isn't anything that has eluded me to get to this moment and be organized. What was the old book, Know where your cheese is? You need to know what. Where you can get your hands on what you need to do the job. So be organized, be prepared, work hard. And what I always say that that creates. I think that creates a sense of confidence and calm in me, which allows me to be the best that I can be.
- [34:45]
Podcast Host
Hello, everyone. I hope you are loving this conversation between David and Jimmy. I know I sure am. And it has me all in my feels about the Olympic Games coming up. As always, stay tuned to the very end of the episode so that you don't miss the debrief that David and I have about his conversation with Jimmy. You'll get some real practical tips that you can apply to your life and to your leadership. And you'll also hear a pretty epic story about David Novak's experience at the Olympic Games himself. So stay tuned to the debrief and I will see you soon.
- [35:15]
David Novak
You know, Jimmy, there's so much, you know, going on right now with AI Artificial intelligence. And, you know, when you think about the creative product that you produce, you know, do you use AI at all in. In your. In. In your job? And. And two part question here. You know, what should leaders not outsource to. To.
- [35:40]
Jimmy Roberts
To AI I haven't really started to use AI to the degree that I know that I eventually will. My kids use it. There are lots of applications that I don't love about it because I think it can be a crutch. It can be a tool, but it can be a crutch. I mean, we're clearly heading in a direction where it's just going to accelerate. So get with the program or get gone. I will say my oldest son is a senior at the University of Michigan. And one of the proudest moments I had was he came to me. He's in his last semester now, and he said, I'm putting together my. My course load for my last semester, and I think I'm going to take creative writing. And I thought. I love that, because a lot of people say that writing is one of the things that AI is just going to gobble up. And in fact, it does. It will, and it can. But I think that when you learn to write, it's basically organizing your thoughts. And so I think that's a really valuable tool. There are so many applications, David, in our business for AI, particularly when it comes to research, for getting prepared to do something. But I don't think I've kind of fully scratched the surface here on how I might be able to use it yet.
- [37:08]
David Novak
You talked about how you've done hundreds of stories, maybe thousands of stories, and you're so acknowledged at being one of the best in your field. How do you fight complacency? Leaders have got to make sure that they keep that edge. How do you keep your edge?
- [37:28]
Jimmy Roberts
I said it before. Lots of times. The story will find you. I get excited. I know something excites me. I mean, at the point in my career where, you know, I recognize that not everything is gonna be the best. You know, not everything is gonna win an Emmy. But I have a responsibility to try my hardest, give it my all. But there are some times when something. A story comes and it taps you on the shoulder and you just can't help yourself. And I think you need to surrender to it. There are a couple of instances. I did a story for the Paris Olympics a couple of years ago that is the best thing that I've ever done for a number of reasons. There have been a couple of things through the years. I once did a story a couple of years ago about a guy who was serving a long sentence in Attica prison for murder. And of course, the old story is that prisons are filled with people who are innocent. At least that's what they'll tell you. Well, it turns out this guy was, and we helped. We were among a group of people who ended up being able to get him out of prison. He spent 27 years in Attica. He's an artist. His name is Valentino Dixon. That's some of the artwork he did. But he loves golf. Never played, but he became a big fan of golf because he loved to draw pictures of golf courses. In terms of the Olympics, it's still, to this day, the greatest experience that I've ever had in terms of a story was doing the story on Dan Jansen winning his gold medal in 1994. Because the backstory was just, you know, it just seemed impossible. These are stories that, like, I say, that tap you on the shoulder, and you just know, and you just get excited about it. I don't know that my personality would ever allow me to be complacent. I can barely sit still, which hurts me sometimes. But it's a really good question. I think you gotta make sure that you're not phoning it in. Listen, I think there are a bunch of people who are phoning it in, and I don't think you'll see them really rise to the top of whatever it is they do, because that becomes apparent.
- [39:43]
David Novak
I think you cover the Masters. You spend a lot of time at Augusta National. It's sacred ground. Obviously. From a leadership standpoint, what do you think that Augusta national gets right in terms of tradition and excellence?
- [40:00]
Jimmy Roberts
That other organizations could learn from Augusta is just singular. And the reason is, in my opinion, because they are the only organization I have ever seen. Forget about sports anywhere. Augusta national is willing to leave money on the table in order to do things the way they think are right. That's so exceptional to me. I mean, do you know of any other business that's willing to say, yeah, I'll take less money? And I'm not suggesting that I know the intimate details of their negotiations, but my experience, and I've been going there since the early 1990s, was that they want to do things the way they want to do things, and they are willing to, I don't want to say suffer the consequences, but they're willing to live by whatever that necessitates. And I just think that's so rare. I mean, the place is just so exceptional, and I love it. I mean, it's unique.
- [41:04]
David Novak
You're back to that upbringing that you got from your parents. The do the right things and the right things happen. Seems to be a big philosophy of yours.
- [41:12]
Jimmy Roberts
Yeah. I mean, I love what Fred Ridley, Chairman Ridley, did, creating the Augusta National Women's Amateur. I mean, that event, in just such a short period of time, has become. I mean, it was, again, kind of like a duh moment. Like, why didn't we think of this before? It's great. So a lot of great stuff.
- [41:37]
David Novak
You know, you obviously know as much about golf as most people would ever could possibly know. You know, when you look at the PGA and Liv, what do you think the learning is there from a leadership perspective?
- [41:51]
Jimmy Roberts
Well, you know, we just sat down with Greg Norman for our show. Boy, I think there's a lot to be learned. You know, from the beginning, my opinion is I think it was a mistake for the Tour not to at least hear them out, see what they had in mind. You know, a lot of this has happened behind closed doors, so it's hard to know what, you know, what was and wasn't said. But I think it's clear that the existence of Liv kind of moved the PGA Tour to a different place. We'll see what that means. You know, we'll see if that was. Has been good for the game or not. Personally, I think where the PGA Tour seems to be headed, again, just my opinion, is the right place. I mean, David, you remember when we were younger that golf, the PGA Tour golf started in January, ended in August. And again, I. You know, I've said this so many times in the last couple of weeks, but I wasn't a very good student in terms of math, and quantitative analysis is not exactly my forte. But I always thought that to make something more valuable, you make less of it, not more of it. And I think that it was a big mistake for the Tour to expand to the degree that it did in the 1990s. I get why they did it. You know, they had a unique asset. Tiger woods, you know, any time he showed up at a tournament, it meant massive television ratings. And, you know, but I think they're heading back to a more sensible place. And I think Brian Rolap is really an interesting guy. One of the things that I think that he said that I think really is refreshing is that, you know, they won't be a slave to history, that they want to make sure that everything is going to be considered as potentially possible. They're going to do whatever is best for the game. They're going to respect the traditions of the game but not be slave to them. And I think that's a really good perspective.
- [44:01]
David Novak
You know, I mentioned this before. You've received multiple Emmys and significant recognition for your work. When you get awards, what does it do or not do for your psyche? I mean, how important is it?
- [44:14]
Jimmy Roberts
You know, maybe when I was younger, it meant a lot. When I think back, there is one award that I've gotten that kind of stood out. And I won an Emmy once for writing. And all of my heroes, the people I looked up to, were writers, at least in this industry. Jack Whitaker, Jim McKay, Dick Shapp, Guy named Judd Rose, who I was a producer for. You know, I admired writers. So to me, and it doesn't really mean anything. You know, as long as you try your hardest and you do your best work, I think that all of that stuff doesn't matter. Is it better to win than not win? I suppose so. But to me, that. Of whatever recognition I've ever had, that one to me, really meant something because it made me feel like I was at least in the conversation with people who I admired, really good, thoughtful writers who organized their thoughts and presented them in a way that made sense.
- [45:25]
David Novak
You know, this has been so much fun, Jimmy. I want to have a little bit more with my lightning round of questions.
- [45:30]
Jimmy Roberts
Are you ready for this? All right, I'm ready.
- [45:31]
David Novak
The three words that best describe you.
- [45:33]
Jimmy Roberts
Energetic. Impatient. Loving.
- [45:36]
David Novak
If you could be one person for a day besides yourself, who would it be?
- [45:40]
Jimmy Roberts
Wouldn't it just be fascinating to know what it's like to be the President of the United States just for a day? And I'm not talking about this president, the former president, or anyone through history, but wouldn't it just be fascinating to understand what it's like from the pressures and the experience? I mean, I think that'd be wild.
- [46:01]
David Novak
Your biggest pet peeve.
- [46:03]
Jimmy Roberts
Okay, I got a lot of them, but I gotta share this one. Okay. It's a language pet peeve. It makes me crazy when I hear people use the word, like, constantly when they're talking, like, you know, like this. I saw him, and he, like, said this to me, and I, like, didn't like that. I want to tear my hair out. And the other one is, there's a specific piece of language that I. It's a big pet peeve with me. People who use the word reticent as a synonym for the word reluctant. I'm not gonna go any further than that. They are two very different words. If you care at all, just look it up. They're not the same. They don't mean the same thing.
- [46:48]
David Novak
Who would play you in a movie?
- [46:50]
Jimmy Roberts
Seth Rogen.
- [46:53]
David Novak
A story you almost didn't tell but are glad you did.
- [46:58]
Jimmy Roberts
That story I mentioned before, from the Paris Olympics. The most fulfilling thing I've ever done.
- [47:06]
David Novak
One Olympic moment that always gives you chills.
- [47:10]
Jimmy Roberts
2002, Salt Lake City Olympics. Six months after 9 11. I was given the honor of doing the interview with the person or people who were to light the Olympic flame. I remember standing at the top of the stadium in Salt Lake City watching the torch. I'm getting chills right now watching that torch ascend the stairs. And it was the Miracle on Ice team who lit the flame. And I looked to my left, and I looked to my right, and here were all these American heroes who meant so much to our country. Six months after nine, 11, wearing their jerseys and peering around the corner, and the flame got out there and they all ran out and came together and lit the flame. And I did the interview with Michael Ruzioni and Jim Craig. That, to me, was just such an honor and such a moment. It's just so meaningful to me.
- [48:07]
David Novak
Of the books you've written, which is the most special and why?
- [48:11]
Jimmy Roberts
It's like asking for your favorite children. I just finished writing a novel which is yet to be published. That, to me was. I think that's been a lot of fun. I think my first book, and it was the book called Breaking the Slump, which I started out writing a book about golf. It ended up being a book about how successful people handle adversity. Was it bunch of golfers. President Bush 41 did a chapter with me. But it was my first book, and the fact that I actually could do it was really meaningful. It's funny, I remember calling my sister. I'm very close to one of my sisters. And I said to her, nancy, I'm gonna write a book. And there was silence on the other end of the line. And she said, I think mom and dad would have been really happy if they knew that you had just read a book. So anyway, my first book.
- [49:03]
David Novak
What's something you've been curious about lately that has absolutely nothing to do with anything that you do at work?
- [49:09]
Jimmy Roberts
Cooking and guitar playing. Those are the two things that cooking I love to do. And that's because I love to eat. Guitar playing, I just. I love music. I really love music. And, you know, in my fantasy, you know, my dreams, I'm a good guitar player, but that's really not the case.
- [49:30]
David Novak
What's the one thing you do just for you?
- [49:33]
Jimmy Roberts
I walk with my dog. I have a yellow lab. His name is Buddy. He's seven years old. And when I need to clear my head, Buddy and I go on long walks, usually around six miles. And I don't like to walk with other people. Sometimes I'll listen to a podcast. I'll probably listen to this one on my next one, next walk. But a lot of times it's just to clear my head. And, you know, I do that just because it makes me feel good. It's really just self indulgent.
- [50:04]
David Novak
Besides your family and friends, what's your.
- [50:06]
Jimmy Roberts
Most prized possession these days? My sanity.
- [50:10]
David Novak
If I turned on the radio in your car, what would I hear?
- [50:13]
Jimmy Roberts
Steely Dan. The Beatles. The Allman Brothers. Classical music. Bluegrass. And news.
- [50:20]
David Novak
What's something about you? Few people would know.
- [50:23]
Jimmy Roberts
Well, I don't know if this qualifies, but one time, I mean, I, you know, I've done so much work in golf. I think I once was in an airport and somebody said to me, hey, I love your work. And I said what I always say, which is, hey, thanks so much for watching. And the guy says, but, you know, I was looking it up. What years did you play on tour? So apparently, you know, he certainly didn't know that I. That. That is not the level of my skill. I'll just leave it at that.
- [50:52]
David Novak
All right, we're out of the lightning round here. Just a few more questions and I'.
- [50:55]
Jimmy Roberts
I'll.
- [50:55]
David Novak
I'll wrap this up. You know, you mentioned your book that you wrote about your first book about adversity. So how leaders handle adversity.
- [51:03]
Jimmy Roberts
What's the.
- [51:04]
David Novak
What's the biggest thing you learned from writing that book about that topic?
- [51:07]
Jimmy Roberts
Yeah, listen, everybody's got, you know, adversity in their lives. It takes different forms. I remember, you know, some of the people I talked to had challenges. One of my favorite stories from the book was Scott Verplank. You know, he had. I mean, he was a. He won a professional tournament as an amateur, and he was going to be the next big thing. But Scott had a bunch of physical challenges. He is diabetic, but more than that, he had some issues with his elbow and his shoulder or elbow and his arm. I think that challenges come in all forms. Listen, you can just roll over and surrender or you can fight. And I think that, again, it's easy for me to say, knock wood, that things are relatively okay with me, but you gotta fight. You gotta fight.
- [52:05]
David Novak
You know, Jimmy, I just wanna say this personally. You know, it meant a great deal to me when you. You wrote that piece about me winning the Shinnecock Club.
- [52:16]
Jimmy Roberts
One of my favorite stories, David, I'm a story guy.
- [52:19]
David Novak
You captured it beautifully, at least from my perspective. I mean, I don't know if anybody else thought so, but what are moments like that, you know, where you're telling someone else's story mean to you at this stage in your career? I mean, you know, I'm a nobody, obviously, but you found a story there.
- [52:36]
Jimmy Roberts
My wife always says that I don't talk to people, I interview them. I'm just, you know, I should have. When going back to what you said before about a word about myself. Another one is curious. I am just curious. I want to know about people. I'm interested to hear their stories. And that is not an affectation that's just me. And I think that, for better or worse, I kind of landed in the right place, because what I do for a living kind of satisfies that jones in me. I'm curious about people and their stories, and I'm kind of thrilled when I hear them. I mean, your story about the oldest guy to ever win the club championship at Shinnecock, I was fascinated by that. And not only that, but the fellow you beat who'd won the championship a couple of times is a good friend of mine. And I just. I always feel like in life, I'm at a cocktail party and listening to people. I am very, very wary of people who don't listen. I heard something genius the other day. Some people are listening. Some people are just waiting to talk. Just think about that for a second. Listening is an active skill. Some people, when you have a conversation with them, you kind of get the feeling like they just can't wait to talk. And then there are other people who. They're listening. They're actually listening. And I just think we all need to listen more.
- [54:19]
David Novak
What do you see as your unfinished business now, Jimmy?
- [54:22]
Jimmy Roberts
We just started this new company, Big Swing Media, and I am the chief operating officer and I have a partner, and he and I have launched this new business. And if you would have told me that I was going to do something like this at this point in my life, I would have never thought so. But this is something that I'm passionate about. It's all about the business side of golf, which we really feel like nobody's been covering. And I am working with some amazing people, and I feel a tremendous responsibility to them to make this thing successful. And so my unfinished business right now is to make the Big swing as good as it can be.
- [55:07]
David Novak
Last question. What's one piece of advice you'd give to anyone who wants to be a better leader?
- [55:13]
Jimmy Roberts
I would just say, David, there are hard decisions that need to be made a lot of times, but I think compassion goes a long way. And again, I get that. I'd like to think I get that from my parents. That time I spent with Mark Messier, I mean, that guy was fierce as a player. I mean, you still look at him today and he's a little scary. He is a scary looking guy, but I can't tell you. And again, you know the guy, he is all about the team and supporting the people that he works with so that together, greater things can happen. And I think there's really something. I think there's something there, Jimmy.
- [55:59]
David Novak
There's Obviously a lot there with you. You're a hell of a good guy. You're so talented and just a pleasure to be with. And I look forward to being with you soon. And, you know, hopefully getting to play around of golf this year.
- [56:11]
Jimmy Roberts
That'd be fun. David, listen, this was. This was a lot of fun. I love talking to you. I love hearing about what you've done and learning about what's next. So we'll tee it up soon.
- [56:28]
Podcast Host
David, what an amazing episode to air right before the Olympic Olympics. And believe it or not, just two weeks ago, I was actually in Cortina, Italy, skiing down the very slopes that some of the Olympic skiers will be skiing down in competition.
- [56:42]
David Novak
The only difference is they didn't fall down all along the way.
- [56:46]
Jimmy Roberts
Right.
- [56:46]
Podcast Host
I knew it was coming. I knew it was coming. That was such a softball. I knew it was coming.
- [56:51]
David Novak
That was an easy one. Yes. By the way, I went to the Albertville Olympics in France in 1992, Winter Olympics. And Sports Illustrated took me because I was running marketing at the Pepsi Cola company. I remember skiing to the events because they had special access, you know, where we could actually ski to the events. Now that is going to the Olympics in style. Doesn't happen these days. Doesn't happen these days. But it was great. You know, there's so many great moments that I think back with the Olympics I was able to attend. I've been fortunate enough to be able to go to a few. But I'll never forget the one in the United States, in Atlanta, you know, when Muhammad Ali lit the torch and he made it up there somehow okay. And, you know, I know all the organizers behind that event had a lot of concern about whether it could be pulled off. But somehow the. This guy, one of the greatest champions to ever participate in any sport, had the strength and the stamina and the desire to light that torch, and it's inspired people all over the world.
- [58:04]
Podcast Host
The Olympics just makes me feel good. I remember I was a gymnast when I was younger, and I will never forget.
- [58:11]
David Novak
Another one of your great sports, huh?
- [58:16]
Podcast Host
Exactly.
- [58:16]
Jimmy Roberts
That's good.
- [58:17]
Podcast Host
Allow me to continue. I'll never forget watching Dominique Muchiano on the balance beam. I will truly never forget. I thought I was going to be her one day. And then, just like your MLB career, my professional gymnastics career also went to die. But it just makes you feel good. And I'm so glad that we have Jimmy on the show this week because his voice is somewhat synonymous with the Olympics. And I'm so excited to see everything unfold But, David, in our debrief today, what I want to do is also get everyone in the Olympic spirit, but give our listeners some really tangible things that they can take away from this conversation so that they can level up their leadership and just show up in a more positive way. The first thing I want to talk about, David, is a really interesting concept that you and Jimmy talked about in the episode. He mentioned that, you know, sometimes the answer to your problems is just to try less hard. And you mentioned when you were at Yum Brands, you talked to your teams about this concept of untrying and the importance of that. Explain what that is and why leaders should encourage that.
- [59:18]
David Novak
Well, I think any performance coach will tell you that if you think about the outcome, that'll get in the way of the result. Because you're trying so hard to get the outcome that you desire that you forget about what you have to do to get the outcome. You're much better off to find, follow the process that's going to get you the result than trying so hard to go from A to B. I'm sure you've seen people when they give presentations and they're trying so hard to do a great job, you almost feel it for them. They make you feel uneasy because, you know, they're struggling so hard versus someone who gets up there who's done the homework and is only focused on communicating their message to you.
- [60:03]
Jimmy Roberts
You.
- [60:03]
David Novak
And they're not trying to impress. They're just trying to communicate. And in that case, that person is untrying. And that's what we mean by that. And I think sometimes as a leader, words can be very powerful. So when you say untry, people go, what do you mean, untry? Well, then you can explain what you mean by it. And that's a concept that we used all across Yum brands all around the world. And it wasn't that we didn't want to have effort. We wanted people putting the effort in, but we didn't want them to try so hard that. To keep them from performing at their very best.
- [60:43]
Podcast Host
It's so true. When you cling so hard to what you want the outcome to be, it usually is the thing that gets in the way of you performing at your best, whether you are an Olympic athlete or just trying to win in business.
- [60:55]
David Novak
Yeah, and it's, it's. And in sports, you know how many times you've read the story about the guy or the woman who has a great career and they get in the playoff games and they don't perform, they don't they don't score their 25 points a game anymore, okay. Because they're trying so hard to perform like they did in the regular season. And it keeps them from, you know, the peak performance you need to have at the right time of the year.
- [61:19]
Podcast Host
Another concept that Jimmy talks about in the episode that I just love, he says, it doesn't cost you anything as a leader to make someone feel good about themselves. And I love that concept. But for leaders, that's a pretty hard thing to measure. I mean, making someone feel good about themselves is pretty intangible and almost a little bit squishy. But I believe that it can have a real tangible impact in creating a culture where people feel like they really matter. How do you think about that?
- [61:45]
David Novak
Well, you know, I'm going to tell a story since Jimmy Roberts is such a great storyteller, okay. And it's not a story that happened to me, but it's a story that someone told me. And Klaus Kleinfeld, who, you know, ran Alcoa and Siemens, and, you know, he used to work late and, you know, he was out in the elevator and going in the elevator to go down. I think he met one of the guys that, you know, cleaned up the offices at night, and he knew him by his first name, and he always talked to him. And, you know, this guy said to him, he said, you know, you know, you know, thanks for talking to me. And. And the guy Klaus goes, what do you mean, thanks for talking to you? I mean, you're a great guy and, you know, I. I enjoy talking. He says. He says, well, a lot of people aren't that way. Most people don't see me. They. They look through me. That was such a powerful story for me because that's what leaders do. Leaders make others feel seen. They make other people feel appreciated. They give them the respect that they deserve. A person told me once, don't look up, don't look down. Always look straight ahead. You're no better than anybody, so never look down. Nobody's better than you, so never look up. Just look people straight in the eye and treat everybody the same, regardless of what position they have. And it doesn't cost you anything as a leader to do that. And, you know, another little story is Colin Powell. You know, he told me that, you know, he worked in a bottling plant. These former Secretary of State. He worked in a bottling plant, Pepsi bottling plant. And he mopped the syrup off the floor all summer long. And at the end of the end of the summer, you know, guy, the foreman Comes up to him, son, I've been watching you all summer long, and you've been making these. These floors sparkle all. When you left, they were spick and span, you know, really appreciate the great job you did, okay? And Colin Powell said that's when he learned the power of recognition, because it says that people are watching. He didn't know anybody was really watching what he did. And, you know, it doesn't cost you anything when you see somebody do something good. It doesn't cost you anything to recognize them, you know? You know, words of affirmation are powerful, okay? And, you know, I think it. And they can be given away appropriately if it's genuine. And I don't think you have to look too hard to find people doing good things in this world.
- [64:31]
Podcast Host
That's so true. I worked for a guy one time who said, we had this huge office building with lots of hallways and lots of rows of desks. And he says, if you're ever at the end of the hallway and someone else is at the other end, a colleague who you may not know, and you're walking past each other, never let that moment go by without just saying hi. Because think about how many times you want to dodge your head or pretend like you're on your phone or just not speak to someone. That small interaction can actually go a really long way. And if everybody's doing that, it creates this space, spirit of collaboration and connectedness that really does have real impact.
- [65:05]
David Novak
I'm sure I've probably done that in my life, but I can't think of too many times when I have. I mean, it'd be hard for me to imagine walking by somebody and not saying hi. And I always would think very differently about someone who'd walk by me and not say hi. It's sort of like. Sort of like the person you wave to. You know, when you're driving out in your neighborhood and you wave and they know you. They see you waving them. They don't wave you back and go, what kind of, you know, what is that guy? You know? And, you know, but that person is the kind of person that doesn't necessarily look to find how to give people the acknowledgement that they deserve.
- [65:45]
Podcast Host
And, you know, Jimmy Roberts is a guy who is naturally curious. I mean, he is a broadcaster and reporter. So he lives on stories and thinks constantly about how to tell them in a way that really captures an audience. And, you know, he says the. The best stories really find him. And I think it's because he says that he's just a Naturally curious person. But, David, for those people listening who might not consider themselves naturally curious, what do you think that they can do to find those points of meaning and those stories that really matter?
- [66:16]
David Novak
Well, I think what, you know, Jimmy does is, number one, he. He's got the mindset that has him on the lookout for him. You know, you're looking out, you're looking to find him, and because you're looking to find him, they come to you. Okay? The other thing is that curiosity means that you have this insatiable desire to learn new things and learn about people. And the best way to do that is to learn how to ask questions. You know, one of the best ways to get to know someone is to really ask them questions and get them talking about themselves. You know, Dale Carnegie said that was the most powerful thing you could do in sales is to learn how to ask questions and get people talking about themselves. Because if they could talk about themselves, they sure as hell like you. Okay? And that's how you influence people. So, you know, one of the best exercises we ever had at work when we were bringing new teams together was we'd have people, you know, sit across the table from each other and tell, tell. Ask everybody to tell three things about themselves to the other person, you know, and those, you know, that. That shared experience of, of. Of asking each other that question and then opening yourself up and giving three things about your life, you know, help people begin to get a bond. And, you know, I think that, you know, learning how to ask questions is important, and it's becoming one of the things that people are trying to build into their cultures now, particularly when you're dealing with AI because it's not enough just to go to ChatGPT. What questions are you going to ask? You know, how can you really stimulate, you know, thought and conversation and elevate your game. Game by learning through AI and it's the questions that you ask that are going to be the most important. So the biggest thing I would do is just try to learn how to ask questions. And that means forcing yourself to ask questions and then getting better and better at it so you get better and better insights. It's the questions you ask that give you the insights that are going to help you win.
- [68:33]
Podcast Host
I think about it specifically around customer feedback. It's actually, it takes a good bit of mental energy to figure out what questions to ask customers in order to glean those insights that are really going to give you what you need to take action and make something better or improve your margins or whatever. So if you just ask binary questions, that's yes or no. At the end of the day, that's not going to give you a ton of real, meaningful anecdotes to go on. But if you understand how to get that insight from them with the question changes things.
- [69:04]
David Novak
I, I totally agree with you. You know, you know, that's why I love to do problem detection studies, because people are not very good at telling you what they like. Okay. But they're very great at bitching, you know, so, so we would always try to ask people, you know, what are the problems? What are the things you dislike about a brand? You know, and if we could figure out what the most important problem was that that occurred most frequently, we would always, we'd always find a great consumer insight that could help us grow the business. But, you know, so there, there are a myriad of ways where you can get, get answers, but none of them come without having a question.
- [69:47]
Podcast Host
Absolutely. Absolutely. David. Well, I am so thrilled for the Olympics, and I'm so thrilled that Jimmy took the time to sit down with you because it's just a perfect way to kick off what is sure to be an amazing celebration over the next couple weeks. Hope everyone listening enjoys watching the Olympics. And thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of How Leaders Lead with David Novak. We will see you next week.