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How Leaders Lead with David Novak
#283: Roy Williams, Former Men’s Basketball Head Coach, North Carolina – Get better every single day
01:23:23
Listen to this leadership podcast with Roy Williams, legendary NCAA basketball coach, and discover the power of continuous improvement and big goals.
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- [00:00]
Podcast Host
Hello, friends, and welcome to another episode of How Leaders Lead with David Novak. It's March Madness, folks, and there's no better way to welcome in the tournament than Roy Williams on the podcast. Coach Williams is without a doubt one of the best basketball coaches of all time. As a headman's basketball coach of Kansas and unc, he won three national championships and made nine Final Four appearances. And through every moment, in every coaching position, Roy had one standard, don't step off the court until you've gotten better. That applied to his players, his staff and himself. And most leaders know that they should focus on continuous improvement. But the hard part is actually making it into something real instead of just empty words. In this episode, you'll learn how to build that discipline into your team without it feeling like a grind. Enjoy this episode with David and Roy and be sure to stay tuned to the very end of the conversation for the debrief.
- [00:59]
Roy Williams
Marvin Gaye before, I guess, probably, maybe most, two years, we were pretty successful. I would listen to Marvin Gaye and the song I'd listen to the most is let's Get It On Marvin. Marvin wasn't talking about the same thing I was talking about, but it was that idea of boys, let's get it on tonight, you know, that kind of thing.
- [01:22]
David Novak
You were a college basketball coach for 48 years. What's it like for you to watch March Madness right now and not be out there on the court?
- [01:31]
Roy Williams
Well, you know, it was 48 years that I coached, but the first five years I was a high school coach, then I was a 10 year assistant to coach Dean Smith, which was the greatest training you can possibly have. I think he was the greatest coach I've ever known on the court and far better off the court. And then 15 years at Kansas and 18 at North Carolina. But right now I'm enjoying doing things with my grandchildren that I never got to do with my own children. But there are some times that I'm sitting up there and just, you know, especially if it's North Carolina or Kansas or Cincinnati, that one of my former players at West Miller is the head coach there. I get into it a little more than just watching basketball to be watching ball. But, you know, it's a great life. I can tell you right now, I really, truly believe this. I truly believe that I'm the luckiest person that's ever lived. Because one thing, and I would wish this for everybody that gets to listen, I never one time in my life said, I gotta go to work tomorrow. And that's pretty doggone good. Cause I never said that my entire life. And so it's pretty fortunate to start with.
- [02:40]
David Novak
So you're kind of like Warren Buffett who said he tap danced to work. He really wasn't going to work. He's just pursuing his hobby.
- [02:46]
Roy Williams
Well, that's a little bit of it. Because I wanted to play and I wasn't good enough to play my whole life. So the next best thing to me was coaching.
- [02:54]
David Novak
You know, you spend a lot of time with your grandkids, but I also imagine I've heard that you're darn good golfer. Is your golf getting any better, Roy?
- [03:02]
Roy Williams
Well, you know, when I stopped playing basketball, I wanted something that I could still compete in. And my high school coach was a very influential man in my life, and he was a golfer. And he got me to go on a golf course the first time to caddy for him. And he really didn't need me to caddy, but it was his way of giving me $3 to carry that bag. And I found out that when I stopped playing basketball after my freshman year at North Carolina, I played on the freshman team and I just wasn't good enough to keep going. I wanted something that I myself could compete in because over on the sideline I'm just yelling, run, run, run. That kind found that the golf course was really, really difficult, and it was really challenging and I loved it. And it was just me. I wasn't depending on that one guy to make eight threes or one guy to block 12 shots or something. So I still like to play. I'm 75 and my handicap is 7.4. I enjoy the challenge, and it's something that I really do love.
- [04:05]
David Novak
It's a great game, you know. You know, just looking at your career, it's amazing. You know, a lot of coaches can have one magical season, but you reached the final four nine times. What does it take as a leader to build a program that consistently performs at that kind of level? That's like dynasty, like performance.
- [04:27]
Roy Williams
Well, you know, I appreciate you saying that. And I've always thought it was harder to get to a high level and stay there than it was to build a program up and then build them up again, you know, so the consistency is something I was very proud of, and it's something that we thought about and as a coaching staff and a team, we talked about. And so for me, the consistency of trying to, to be the best. You know, we have a school in Bowling Springs, North Carolina, and Gardner Webb, and I used to go there and work the Basketball camp when I was a high school coach and we played them one year and gave them some money to help their program. And I was really mad after the game, and I told my team, I said, you think I'm trying to prepare you to beat Gardner Webb? And so I called the coach and told him, I'm going to use that forever. It does give you a little publicity. But for my dreams and my goals, every day I wanted to try to be the best that I could possibly be. And every day I wanted to do something to make our team better before we left the court. And I used to tell my guys, you know, when you come out of that locker room, when you step across that baseline onto the court, whether it was Allen Field House or the Smith center, don't step back off of it unless you've done something to make yourself better. And we tried to do it every day with our team. We tried to do it individually. And even in the off season when it was recruiting time or scouting time or raising money time, it was still the same Thing with me is I wanted to do the best I possibly could every single day.
- [06:03]
David Novak
You know, recruiting is obviously a huge challenge for. For any coach that wants to be successful. What did you learn about recruiting high talent? People that could. Business leaders could. Could apply?
- [06:18]
Roy Williams
Well, I wanted to recruit guys who wanted to reach the epitome in basketball. I wanted to recruit guys who wanted to play in the NBA that truly had a chance to play in the NBA. And in doing that, the best path to the NBA was playing in either Kansas or North Carolina, because we were going to play at the highest level and they had to improve every day. They had to work at it every day. They had to understand, if you truly have that dream, then you've got to pay the price. And every year I would sort of have a thought, a motto or something to go after. But I came back to North Carolina in 0304 and I had T shirts made up and I said, play hard, play smart, play in March, because believe it or not, no one on our team at North Carolina my first year had ever made the tournament.
- [07:06]
David Novak
Is that right?
- [07:07]
Roy Williams
Yeah. So they two years in a row, they hadn't made the tournament. And we just had freshmen and sophomores, which became sophomores and juniors when my first year. But that was our mantra. That was what we talked about. And so that year, the first two years, and the second year ended up being a national championship team. The motto was, be led by your dreams, not pushed by your problems. And I think every day in every business, if I were a businessman, that would be one of my things too, is be led by our dreams. We have our dreams and for us, we talked about long term goals and short term goals and. But if you, if you're saying, woe is me all the time, oh, those other guys have got better players and all this kind of stuff, those are problems. But if you were led by your dreams, it was extremely important to me to set that out there. And I will tell you, even some of our teams weren't quite good enough. But every year my goal was to win the national championship. Every year.
- [08:05]
David Novak
And you had sustained excellence, almost like any other coach, maybe with the exception of John Wooden. I mean, you. You did it. You brought it every single year. And you know, you coached at Kansas. You had phenomenal teams. But unfortunately, you know, I was big Kansas fan, still am. You know, you lost the national championship twice before going to unc. What did that teach you about leadership? You know, just the learning from losing, that they really stuck with you because, God, you get so close.
- [08:37]
Roy Williams
Yeah. And you know, my last game at Kansas, at the head coach, we lost to Syracuse in the national championship game. And we were. I think I'll miss this a little bit. It was a few years ago, but I think we were like 12 for 31 from the foul line. They call them free throws. And we were 12 for 31. But that was something that. And it was hard to handle. And even those teams. And I left after that year, but the core of those teams stayed together and. And even when I talked to them and told them that I was leaving, going back to North Carolina, it was just the right thing for me to do at that time. I talked about their dreams and goals shouldn't change. They should strive to be a national championship team. And the other one that was really tough was in 2016, we lose the national championship game to Villanova on a last second shot. I mean, really literally last second shot. And one of my players, Marcus Page, had just made a tremendously difficult three to tie the game up with four. I think it's 4.8 seconds and they go down and pull up from about 28ft and bam. And the game's over with. And I'll tell you this, that to me, it was the most inadequate feeling I ever had in my life. I was going into that locker room. What am I going to say to those kids? And it was so difficult. And I sat down and this is stories, but I think a meaning will get to you, is that I'm Sitting outside in a little holding area. And, I mean, I was crushed. I didn't know if I could hold it together. How can I ask the kids to give me more than they did? And so all of a sudden, somebody puts their big arms around me and hugged me. And I turned around and looked up, and it was Michael Jordan. And I had helped recruit and coach Michael. And he was there at the game, and he said, I just came to check on you. And I said, michael, it's the most inadequate feeling I've ever had. What do I say to these guys? I said, would you mind just going in there and tell them how proud you are of them? And he said, I'll do that. So I got up out of my chair and I followed Michael. I went in, Michael followed me in. And our best player, our leader, was Marcus Page. And he's sitting there with his hand down in a towel and he's crying. And this is the funny part of it, is that after a few moments, he realized, hey, that's not Coach Williams talking. So he lowered the towel a little bit. Oh, my God, there's Michael Jordan in the locker room talking to him. But I talked to that team about, use this as fuel. Don't belittle yourself. Don't take any shortcuts over the off season. Every day, think of this feeling and what you're going to do to try to make sure we don't have the same feeling the following year. Now, in the business world, you may lose somebody, but it was more even difficult for me because Marcus Page and Bryce Johnson, our two best players, and Joel James, they were seniors. They were gone. And I said, there's nothing I can do for you guys. But if we play our tails off next year and have a chance to win it, you guys will be part of that. And it was my whole idea of trying to. Because I was. Felt inadequate, I said millions of times, but to get them to channel that sorrow, that pain, and so to really. It was unbelievable. This a year later, the first day of practice, I let our media people mic me. And I never did that. Never. And they had the mic. So I blow the whistle and everybody runs to the center court. And I just wanted to set the tone. And I said, right here in front of me. And I pointed at every player, and I pointed right at them, looked right at him. I see in front of me a team that's good enough to not just play on the last Monday night, but to be the last team standing. Guys, I believe it deep down in my soul. So we practiced and I forgot about it and a whole bit. And we had a good run, had a good year, and we ended up winning the national championship. And so we get back into Chapel Hill and we have the basketball banquet and the media people play that video. I had forgotten about it completely. I'm getting cold chills right now even thinking about it. But for me, I wanted to set our goal. And I said earlier, long term goals and short term goals, but I wanted them to believe that we could be the last team standing. And it ended up working. But Craig, that's the only time I ever let him mic me. And I forgot about it completely. But it was very moving that night. I mean, I got emotional myself, even listening myself. And it's very hard for me to make myself emotional or something that way. But I do believe a parent one time said it's better to aim for the stars instead of the gutter, because you never can tell. You may hit what you aim at. And he was a parent of a kid from Australia, of all places. And. But I do believe in setting legitimate goals. And even if you don't believe in it quite as much as you do some years, you got to set that high standard, and it can't be, all right, guys, we got to get better all year. That's what you say every day. But we have a goal. In 1982, we put up a picture of the New Orleans Superdome in the locker room when I was an assistant at North Carolina, the day before practice started. And every time the players came in and opened that locker, they saw that picture, the Superdome, and that's where the national championship game was going to be. And that was Michael Jordan's freshman year with Sam Perkins, James Worthy. And so the first day of practice, they knew what we were aiming for. And I even did that, I guess. In 05, we won our first championship at North Carolina. And we started in 06 season. Three freshmen and a guy who came as a football player who decided to play basketball and a guy who was second team all state. And we weren't even picked by Sports Illustrated to make the field. In the preseason. Their top 68 teams, we weren't one of them, but yet we ended up being a three seed. Because I said, don't believe that, jock. Our goal is the Final Four Monday night. Be there standing. But I do believe strongly that you've got to set those goals and remind your team of that every day.
- [15:02]
David Novak
Yeah, that saying is that you become what you think you are, you know, and it's obviously you've, you really got people thinking about what they were capable of. You know, the other thing, Roy, which I've always admired about you, is you're an emotional guy. I mean, you know, even as you're telling that story there, you kind of almost well up a little bit, your hair's rising on your arm and, you know, it's like, you know, how do you feel about leaders showing their emotions?
- [15:31]
Roy Williams
Well, I always think you gotta be yourself. But I want them to understand that I'm in this thing. I'm not halfway in. I'm in it and in it to stay in it. And so for me, my emotions, and sometimes, I'll be honest with you, that my emotions get almost completely out of control, whether it's the referee or just the emotion. Like, I mean, that I didn't know what to say to my team that just played for the national championship, you know, 365 teams, and we got there to Monday night and we lost on the last second shot. And it should be a celebration, but it's not what we wanted. And so I was just crushed. And I really did. It's the most inadequate I've ever felt. But I think you have to be true to yourself. My guys, they knew where I stood every single day. And I think the consistency, I was never one going like this, you know, I think you got to go, you got to go to work, you got to go to work, you got to go to work, you got to go to work.
- [16:37]
David Novak
What's a story from that first championship you won 2005 that, that you haven't told too many people what's, what's a behind the scenes story of that team and that win.
- [16:48]
Roy Williams
People kept giving us help, and by that I mean, you know, we were gifted. But nobody on that team the first two years had made the tournament. So my first year, we make the tournament and we win the first round, lose in the second round. And what I had done at the start of my first year, I said, if you do what I tell you to do at the best of your ability, we'll make the tournament. Play hard, play smart, play in March, we'll make the tournament and I'll get us a little help and next year we'll have a chance to win the whole thing. Now the good thing for me is that we didn't have any seniors on my first team. So they all wrote it wasn't throwing a senior under the bus and saying we have no hope. And I really believe that. And so we made the tournament Our first year and then we got Marvin Williams and Quentin Thomas and Marvin was a great player for us. And then everybody was used to what we were trying to do and so they bought into that. And that second year we sort of used as a chip on our shoulder because the background the previous couple of years, it had been a lot of drama, it had been a lot of frustrations. And so I said, well, I'm not concerned about that. I'm concerned about today. Let's be together every single day. Be together. And so we had a challenge that, that we're in this tournament. It's only a two game tournament, but we're going to play our butts off these two games and then maybe they'll let us play a regional next year. And that tournament's two games. And so then all of a sudden we're in the Final four. And the news people helped us because the day of the national championship game against Illinois, the headline said team versus talent. And it really, excuse my French, Wanda hates for me you say this, but it really pissed me off. And so I got it and took it into our breakfast meeting. I said, they're saying that Illinois's team is a better team than we are, that we're more gifted, that we're lucky to be here. And that was. I used it quite a bit. And they help you sometimes. You get some help from the outside. I didn't have to think of all those things. But that first year, I mean, it was with me, I was driven to try to win a national championship with that team. And every day it was be led by your dreams, not pushed by your problems every single day.
- [19:08]
David Novak
And you know, sometimes when you have really high expectations and people have high expectations, it can almost become a burden. And I remember your 2009 team came into the season. You were. Now, you know, you've already built in this dynasty like performance in North Carolina and you're ranked number one and everyone expected you to win the national championship, which you ultimately did. But how did you make sure those high expectations didn't, didn't become a burden?
- [19:42]
Roy Williams
Well, you know, the year before in 08, we had lost in the Final four to Kansas in the Final Four and. But everybody came back. Ty Lawson and Danny Green and Wayne Ellington came back when they had tested the draft waters and they came back and wanted to see if they could be better by playing another year and be more attractive. Tyler Hansbrough was guaranteed that he was going to be a top 15 pick. But he was one of those unusual ones. He Said to Tony, said, coach, I came here to win a national championship. I was in St. Louis when you wanted an 05 because he was from Poplar Bluff. He said, I came here to win a national championship, so I decided to use that. So I brought those guys in, Wayne and Danny and Ty. I said, tyler came back to win a national championship. If you came back just to help your draft stock, it's not going to work. But if you came back to win a national championship, this could be something you'll remember for the rest of your lives. And so when the Associated Press came out and picked us number one in the preseason and the only ever unanimous choice to win national championship, I said, well, guys, that shows the writers are a little intelligent, you know, because I think we're the best team too, and let's remember that all year. And so I put the pressure on them in some ways that, yeah, they're not saying anything that we're not saying. Our goal is to win the national championship. Our goal is not to win the tournament. I mean, win the ACC tournament. Our goal is not to win. Beat Duke or State. Our goal is to be that last team standing on Monday night. And so even in the locker room on the last Monday in 09, that's what I told them that morning. Last year we lost and it was crushing blow in the final four in the semifinals. But tonight is a night that we dreamed about our entire lives, and it's something that we will remember. It won't be just be a dream, it'll be a memory because we're going to go out and we're the best team and we're going to show them. Yeah.
- [21:44]
David Novak
And what was it like after that devastating defeat to really cut the cords next year? I mean, what. What's that feeling like, Coach?
- [21:51]
Roy Williams
You know, in, in. In 16 when we. It was devastating and turn around and win it in 17. That's exactly what you say. I mean, my heart was broken and. But I told him, as we said that scene about the first day. And so that was our goal that year as well, is let's be the last team standing, not just be there. And the thing I remember most is that in the semifinals, Joel Berry already had a sprained ankle and sprained his other ankle. And so we beat Oregon in the semifinals in 17. So the day between the games, we just went to shoot around. It was not practice. We weren't scrimmaging. We weren't going four on four. We were just shooting around and getting loose. And Joe Berry shot the Ball and came down and fell because he turned his ankle. So he goes limp into the locker room. And so when we take water break, I took off and went to the locker room to see how Joel Berry was. And my trainers there just said, I don't know, Coach. And his ankle was swollen and black and blue and green. And he looked at me and he said, coach, I'll be there. Just like that. So I went back out to the team and said, joel's ankle, he sprained it a little bit. He says he's going to be there. And I said, guys, you've seen his ankle. He's going to give us everything. By God, don't you give us anything less. And so the next day in the finals, with less than a minute to play, Joy's on the free throw line, and we basically five or six ahead with 10 seconds to go. And I said, do you. I said to the ref, I said, would you go ask Joel if he needs a timeout? Because tears are rolling down his face. And, you know, because, I mean, it's 10 seconds, we're up six or whatever it was. And so he came over there and he said, coach, thank you. I said, well, I didn't think you could shoot the free throw if you're crying, wipe your dadgum eyes and make the free throws, let's get out of here kind of thing. But it is. It's. I believe in expectations are okay, especially if you use it to motivate you to show people they're right, show people they're wrong or whatever. But I like. I spoke to an insurance group, Mutual of Omaha, and they've been in their certain categories very good and sort of dominate things. And I said, you know, the only thing you can't allow is complacency to come in because it's a new season. And every year in your business also, it's just that your bottom line or whatever you choose. But in athletics, when it's a team competition, everybody can pull to help somebody else. And there's an old saying, do not condemn thy neighbor unless you walked in his moccasins for two full moons. Well, one year I had a kid from Clyde, New York. I had to explain what a moccasin was and how long a moon was. But basically what that means is you can't criticize unless you know the other's exact situation. And why criticize anyway? We're in this together. We're going to be a lot stronger. You know that old saying, five fingers get stronger as a fist, and Two hands clasped together is stronger than one. And so for me, it was about all the time setting a legitimate. And a lot of times I was reaching a little bit because I wanted us to push to be the best. And I will say this every year, every year, some of it was not realistic, but my goal was win a national championship.
- [25:22]
David Novak
You know, I want to get more into how you. How you lead and how you became one of the greatest coaches of all time. But first, let me take you way back, Roy. You know, tell us a story from your childhood that really impacted the kind of leader you. You became and you are today.
- [25:39]
Roy Williams
Well, you know, it was. I was happy. Okay? It wasn't very good, but I was happy. The reason I'd say it wasn't very good is because I saw what other people had. My mom and dad split when I was very young, and my dad was never home after I was 10. And it was very hard on my mom. And, you know, there were some things that she did. And she was a very bright, very intelligent, uneducated woman who quit school in the 10th grade and had two children. And she was working in a shoe, excuse me, a shirt factory, folding shirts and putting bags on to sell and every day. And did that for 28 years. And so for me, my thing that I got by with is because she loved me. And that was. She was the greatest. And the other thing that I got by with is my teachers and coaches sort of took an extra interest in little Roy. And my high school coach was the first person to give me confidence, first person to make me feel like I could be something. And even my sophomore year, said, he said, I've seen you haven't signed up for the sat. I said, coach, nobody in my family. I mean, My dad had 13 brothers and sisters. My mom had 10. So we had 8 million cousins. But I was the first in my family to ever go to college. But it was my high school coach, and everybody has somebody out there that's giving you a little extra. And he was that person to me. And he was one that told me I should go to North Carolina because after my ninth grade year, I decided I wanted to be a coach. And the reason is my high school basketball coach, as I said, gave me confidence and was the first person to actually say things to. I always played with older guys in the neighborhood, and they were taking US History their junior year. And so at the end of my freshman year, my high school coach, I played on the JV team, but he told his US History class he thought I Could be the best point guard he'd ever coached. And oh my gosh. So that made me work even harder. And so for me, it was a wonderful life. I mean, I loved it and I knew it was very difficult on my mom. And later on I knew it was even more difficult because I became a parent myself and those kind of things. But it was extremely difficult for her. She loved me and she did anything in the world for me and my sister. And that made the family idea of coaching a team, it was really special to me. And so for my entire life, the only thing I really cared about was my family and my basketball team. I got so I could play golf a little bit. I enjoyed being with my buddies and the trash talking and those kind of things. But my mother was the person that was my hero. And so for me, I never wanted to do something to let her down. And I used that because I had some kids that were in tough situations just like I was. But I was in charge of Roy. You know, they were in charge of themselves. They were in charge of what could be done. They, you can't say, oh, woe is me kind of thing. But because my teachers and my high school coach, I was a lucky, was and still am the luckiest person that ever lived.
- [29:00]
Podcast Host
Hello, friends. I hope you are loving this conversation with David and Coach Williams. As always, stay tuned to the very end of the episode where David and I will debrief the conversation that he's having with Roy. We'll give you some real practical takeaways that you can apply right away to your leadership and to your life. So be sure to stay tuned to the very end of the episode and I will see you at the debrief.
- [29:22]
David Novak
You became an assistant under Coach Dean Smith. You mentioned that a little bit earlier. Was there anything unique about that circumstance that affected you and your family as you took that job?
- [29:34]
Roy Williams
Yeah, it was called the part time assistant. And Coach Smith had the great line. He said, it's a full time job, part time pay. And so this is 1980 and I know to people now that sounds like 100 years ago, but my pay, my entire first year was $2,700 for the year. So I sold calendars.
- [29:54]
David Novak
Wouldn't want to think about that.
- [29:56]
Roy Williams
Well, the funny thing is she was the best. Now because I came home from working Coach Smith camp, I was a high school coach for five years and I was invited down every year to work Coach Smith's basketball camp. And so the third week of camp, we every week on Thursday night, the night before camp's over with, he would have a party for the coaches after we put the kids to bed and everybody have food and drink. And he said, I want to talk to you a minute. And he got me to go over and sit down at a booth away from everybody else and told me he would like for me to consider coming back to Chapel Hill and being the part time assistant. And he spent all this time apologizing because he couldn't pay because we did things the right way. And I said, coach, let me go talk to Wanda. And I went in and told Wanda that Coach Smith had offered me the job. And she said, let me get this straight. We have a child, a little boy. She was going back to work, we were going to have daycare for him. She was going to make 15,000, I was going to make 16,000. So she said, let me get this straight. So we have jobs that we're going to make 31,000 and you think you want to go to chapel hill for 2,700 and we have a one year old baby? I said, yep, that's about it. And she said, when do we leave? And so I had the complete support. And I did. I mean, I did.
- [31:18]
David Novak
So what a partner that is.
- [31:19]
Roy Williams
Oh, yeah. I mean, but I did. I sold calendars, drove copies. I did study hall. I'd sit in study hall and, you know, I didn't know anything about what they were studying, but I made them keep their face in the book. You know, that was another way to make $10 a night kind of thing. So for me, initially it was hard because I was scared to death about feeding my family. But then we got the calendar business going. I became the. I don't mind saying this, that's the best dadgum calendar salesman you've ever seen.
- [31:44]
David Novak
But so what made you such a great calendar salesman? You know, I sold encyclopedias, by the way, you know, but you know, what, what did you learn from that experience?
- [31:53]
Roy Williams
Well, first of all, I had more, you know, it was emphasized by me more because I had to. If I didn't sell on the calendars, I couldn't feed my family. But the other thing, and you learned this when you're selling encyclopedias, and this helped me later on, who's going to make the decision? You know, in recruiting, you go in there, is mom going to make a decision? Is dad going to make a decision? Is the high school coach got any input? Who's making a decision? In your business right now, that's extremely important. When you were selling encyclopedias, you've got to know who's going to make the decision. And so for me, in the calendar business, I cut through so much tape every year because I got better at deciding who was going to make the decision and having the motivation of liking to eat and feeding my family, that was part of it. And the other thing is, I knew I had a great product. I just had to be able to get out there to the people that were huge North Carolina fans. But I did, and I tried to do it to the best of my ability. And it was a passion with me.
- [32:53]
David Novak
You know, as an assistant coach at North Carolina, you recruited Michael Jordan before anyone really knew who he was. You know, what did he do from your perspective that really allowed him to become the greatest basketball player of all time? What is it?
- [33:08]
Roy Williams
Well, he had a tremendous desire. My three favorite athletes. You can't say who's your favorite son or who's your favorite player or favorite dog, but. But my three favorite athletes are Michael Jordan, Tiger woods and Tyler Hansbrough. Cause they did everything they could do to be the best they could be. Tyler Hansbrough pulls up behind the Smith center and gets out of his car and he's got a gallon jug. And I said, what do you got in the jug? And he said, water. And I said, what are you doing? And our trainer told him, you need to drink a gallon of water every day before practice. So he was taking a daggum gallon jug to class and turning it up between classes and drinking it. Michael Jordan worked harder than everybody. Tiger woods had some things that people didn't like, but I admired him because he hit that six iron out of the bunker in the Canadian Open across the water at 8ft to make eagles. We all remember that shot, but they did everything. There was a young PGA guy that said, I'm going to follow Tiger. I'm going to do everything. He does everything for two weeks. And the second or third day guy that told me this said, he came, he said, I'm out. Because he said that Tiger was on the green and he was putting one handed from three feet for an hour. This over and over and over and over. Well, Michael Jordan, I got after him his freshman year. And I said, you've got to push yourself more. He said, coach, I want to be the best player to ever play at North Carolina. And I said, well, you got to work harder than you did in high school. And he said, I worked as hard as everybody else. And I said, oh, excuse me. I mistake. I thought I heard you say you wanted to be the greatest player to ever play in North Carolina. You have no chance, no chance if you're just going to be satisfied and working it as everybody else. And in business, you learn things as your assistant coach. And that season or that summer before school was started, Michael's freshman year, I said, I'd like to have a more organized running program for us and push the guys to be in great shape when we start practice. Because in those days you didn't. Everybody didn't play basketball year round. The elite ones did, but a lot of guys played other sports and stuff like that. And so Coach Smith taught me the lesson. He said, okay, you're in charge, you do it. And so we did a running program and I tried to bury them for three days a week for four weeks before practice started. And that's when Michael told me that sitting on the grass, because one guy was over here throwing up and one guy was over here, guys helping him into the locker room, because I was trying to kill him. And so that was. We did it Monday, Wednesday, Friday, I can't tell you what day it was, but two days later when he came out on the track, Michael said, I want to talk to you at the end of practice, at the end of this running. And I said, okay. And so, you know, everybody's laying on the grass, acting like they're going to die at the end. And you know, and then two guys get up, leave, somebody else gets up and leaves, and all of a sudden it's just me and Michael. And he said, I remember what you said and I'm never going to forget it. And he said, you'll never see anybody outwork me. And, you know, and I think he showed that for his entire life. And his freshman year he was six, four and a half. His sophomore year, he was six, six. His freshman year he got faster. We used to. That's me and another assistant coach and her trainer timing. But Coach Smith wanted a time in the mile, a vertical jump and a time in the 40 yard dash. And so we got a trainer and two coaches there and they sprint across the line and we hit our watch. And when Michael did his 40 and I'm looking at it and I said, guys, I may have missed it. What do you have? And one guy said, I got 4, 3, 9. And the other guy said, I got 4, 3, 8. And I said, I got 4, 3,. And I'm thinking, oh my gosh, he's an inch and a half taller. He's bigger, stronger and faster. Because his freshman year he did that in four or five. So his sophomore year, he came back even stronger, bigger, faster. So I said, michael, I said, I messed up your time. I said, I'm going to need you to run it again. And he didn't say a word. And so we ran somebody and ran somebody, and then Michael was back up on the line. But as he walked back out to the starting point, he walked past me with that little cocky little grin and everything said, faster than you thought, huh? And it was. And he knew what we. And so we timed him again. And I got 4, 3, 8 again. So everybody else. So he went from a fast guy, four or five something, until four, three, eight. So he got bigger, stronger. And he had that attitude his freshman year before it even started. You'll never see anybody outwork me. And that's the way he lived at North Carolina for three years. He tried to. He would look you in the face, say, I'm going to dunk on you today. And he'd look at Tim and say, I'm going to dunk on you twice. I love it. And so that was. He was just unusual in that way. And every day he tried to become a better player.
- [38:12]
David Novak
I understand that Coach Smith, you know, recommended you to Kansas when you were an assistant. How did that impact you?
- [38:20]
Roy Williams
Well, you know, I'd been a high school coach for five years, and so I was the head coach of the high school team. And that was as important to me as it was to the guy coaching in the Final Four. And so that was a part of it. And I got a little confidence there. And then I'd been at North Carolina for 10 years. I'd coached our JV team for eight years. So for eight years, I had two practices every day. And if Coach Dean smith had a two hour practice that day, Roy Williams had a two hour practice. If he had an hour 15 minutes, then that's what Roy Williams did. And so to me, even from the time I left high school, I had continued coaching as a head coach even though it was just the JV team. But Eddie Foger one time, Jeff Lebo, one of our elite players, who's still an assistant in North Carolina, said to Coach Foger, he said, coach Williams is really upset. What's mattering? And Eddie said they lost the JV game. And Jeff Lebo said, it's just JV game. And Coach Fogler said it's not to him. And so for me, even I felt comfortable with what I knew and how I would try to do things. But. But I was very lucky. I Mean, if Coach Smith had not been a Kansas graduate, there's no way they would have hired him. But the respect that he had, the influence that he had with some of the people there, because there's no way in the world Roy Williams should have gotten that job. But it was the respect that Coach Smith had, and that made me even more motivated because I didn't want to let Coach Smith down. And every day of my life as a head coach, I wanted to do things that would have made Coach Smith proud. Even, you know, my last year as a head coach, 33 years, I still wanted to do something every day that would have made Coach Smith proud.
- [40:08]
David Novak
And you talk already a lot about just the importance of having high standards and beliefs in terms of where you. Where you can really go, and you're running these, you know, superpower programs. You know, do you have a story of where you had a talented player that you really had to hold him accountable because you didn't think he was performing? And how did you do that as a leader?
- [40:33]
Roy Williams
Well, it's two things. I think kids will allow you to lead them. Just like people in your store in whatever you're doing. They will allow you to lead them if they trust you and if they believe in you. And I told all of them, you're never going to outwork me. I'm going to be here before you are every morning. I'm going to be here after you leave every night. And also, I'm going to put more into it than you are. And also, I used to tell the fans this. I'd hold my hand up like that, and I said, you see that little finger? I've got more passion in that little finger than all the North Carolina people in the world to win. And so I'd tell my team that, and I'd say, I'm going to push you. You've got to be willing. But if you're willing to come along, then we're going to have a chance. And for me, every day was a contest, Every day was a challenge. Every day was a game. It's just nobody was keeping score.
- [41:39]
David Novak
I was. I really enjoyed your hall of Fame speech. You apologized in that speech to your 96, 97 Jayhawks team for not leading them to a national championship. That's a remarkable level of vulnerability and accountability. Tell us about what that was inside of you as a leader that made you want to do that.
- [42:04]
Roy Williams
It's funny, and I'm a weird dude, so you gotta understand that part. But when you mention that, it almost makes me Choke up. Because I really did feel like that that team was good enough to go to a Final Four. When you get to the Final Four, you know, you got to have the ball bounce your way. And this kind of thing, you're good enough to get there. Anybody can win it. But we were so good. We got Jared Hess hurt, and he played the whole year with broken wrists and couldn't really play in the NCAA Tournament at all. He tried, but he just couldn't do it. But, I mean, it was a tremendous moment for me to be inducted into the hall of Fame. It was sad because my mother was not there. She had already passed. So it was really sad that I didn't have her there. And so when I spoke, I said, at one time, I had a mom and a dad and a sister, and now I have none of those. But I know that mom upstairs is really proud of me. But that team was perfect. And I really felt like that I had let them down, and it was important for me. And my high school coach told me, said, why did you bring that up? It's got to be supposed to be your night. It's supposed to be, you know, seashells and balloons and everybody happy. And I said, because I love that team. And one of those guys is Jock Vaughn, who's an assistant coach at Kansas right now. Another one was Jared Hass, who coached with me at Kansas and North Carolina and. And then went to become the head coach at Stanford. But the vulnerability never bothered me because this is Roy, and you're my player. This is our team, and everything else is different. We're in this together. And I did one of the great friends who was a really, really successful NBA coach, said, how can you even think about that when you're up there at the hall of Fame? I said I felt like I'd let those guys down. And it was maybe my last chance to apologize because I had five of those guys in the crowd. But it was a vulnerable time. But that's okay, as long as you're not trying to be. As long as you're not phony. And I've been accused of a lot of things, but
- [44:24]
David Novak
there's nothing phony about you, for sure. And you had a great run at Kansas with some disappointment, but any way you look at it, a great run. Didn't you go back to your home in North Carolina? You know, when you make a career change or career move like that, you know, it's a time really to step back, maybe reflect, you know, did you step back and reflect on Your performance and what you wanted to do different in this new situation, even though it was familiar, it was still new, a different time. You know, how did you think about the restart or the reset? Or did you think about it that way?
- [45:05]
Roy Williams
A little bit, but not a lot, you know, because every day it was going to be the same goal. Be the best we can be today and be better tomorrow, be better the next day, be better the next day. It was hard because I loved Kansas so much. My chancellor in North Carolina, when I took the job, really helped. He says, you're not immoral if you love two institutions. Because there's no doubt in my mind. It's something else that's hard for me to even talk about. When I told my team at Kansas that I was leaving, when I walked out of that room, I felt dirty. And if I had known I was going to have that feeling, I don't know that I could have done it. But my situation at Kansas had changed dramatically. My ad, Bob Frederick that had hired me, it was no longer the ad, the chancellor was no longer the chancellor, and the job had just gotten much harder. And the AD and I just didn't get along. He didn't get along with a lot of people, but. So for me, it was the right thing to do. My sister was a little sick, My dad was real sick, and we were not close, but I still. My family was in North Carolina, and so I felt like it was the right thing to do. And yet, I don't mind telling you, I mean, I watched every KU game and died with them if they lost and celebrated with them if we won. But to go back there and to lose myself into my job as a coach of the North Carolina Tar Heels, every day was what I wanted to do. And over time, it's healed a lot of wounds. I'd upset some people at Kansas just like three years prior to that, I'd upset some people at North Carolina by not going back the first time they asked me. But, you know, I think I try to do the right thing. I try to do what Coach Smith would be proud of. I try to do things that my mom would be proud of. And, you know, my mom, one time I told her what I was doing and we were going to the pool hall. I mean, I'm 16 years old and it's a bad place, and people are drinking, and I'm not a drinker at all and never smoked a cigarette, marijuana, anything in my entire life. Now I'll gamble on the golf course with the best of them. I got some. I played craps at the crabs table. But my mom one time, she said, why are you going there? I said, mom, it's just a place we gather and we shoot pool and then we leave and go to Burger King, get something to eat and come home. She says, well, I just don't know. She said, you just make sure you do the right thing. And this was a lady who quit school in the 10th grade that was very bright, very intelligent, but uneducated woman. And she looked at me and she said, you just do the right thing. And I said, mom, how will I know it's the right thing? She said, you'll know. And that guided me for years. And again, I really do believe that I'm the luckiest person that ever lived. And a great deal of it's because my mom.
- [48:04]
David Novak
You've spent your entire career building winning teams. I mean, if anybody should be an expert on how to build winning teams, you would be it. You know, what would you be the top three or four things you think that are essential to building a great team.
- [48:20]
Roy Williams
Every day before practice, I would make out the practice plan. We're going to work on. Offensive rebound for seven minutes, out of bounds underneath for 11 minutes, do this for 12 minutes, do this for eight minutes. I mean, Eric Church, one of our great country singers, came to watch practice one day and I gave him a copy of the practice plan. And it's 7 minute period, 11 minute, 8 minutes, 10. He said, Gosh, I'm going to start doing that. My band, we'll get things. Because I never varied from my high school coach who I loved, loved, and still do it, say one more time, one more time, one more time and get to 31. And so I never said one more time. But if I wasn't pleased with where we were on the offensive rebound, and I'd write a note on the practice plan, more time tomorrow or less time tomorrow because we cut it short because we were doing so well. But on the top of the practice plan every day, I would put a thought for the day and I copied it from coach Smith. Coach John Wooden sent me a thousand of his thoughts, but the one that we started every season with on the first day was, it's amazing how much can be accomplished when no one cares who gets the credit. And you think in your job, in your people, that you have some of them have this job to do, some of them have this job to do, some of them have something different. That's the way it is in basketball. We have one guy that I want to get the shot. We have one guy that I want to pass, but we have another guy that I want to set the screen to get the guy open. So, you know, it's amazing how much can be accomplished when no one cares who gets the credit. Regardless of how important you think your job is, do it to the best of your ability. Because that guy coming across the lane to set that screen, to get Tyler Hensborough open, he better set a good screen. So regardless of how important you think your job is, do it to the best of your ability. Another one that I talked about earlier was always going to be there is persistence prevails when all else fails. We're going to do that every single day. We're going to be persistent about what we think is important. Another one at Marvin Williams, one of our great players that only played at North Carolina one year, was the second pick in the NBA draft, but was the first one and done to get his college education. He came back nine summers to get his degree and Marvin loved this one. You can measure the speed of a thoroughbred with a watch, but it takes a race to measure the heart. And, you know, because we're trying to build something every single day. We're trying to don't step across that line if you didn't get better. And so the little thought for the day would be something. If I were to be in job of an office and had 12 guys, girls, 28, we would have a meeting, say, okay, what are we trying to accomplish today? Let's do this. And I literally have thousands of those things. And I've, over the past five years, since I've been retired, I've shared a lot of them with some of my former players who are in coaching now. But again, it's just something that for me was I really truly believed in every day is having a thought for something that was more important than basketball. This is how it applies to basketball now.
- [51:22]
David Novak
How do you, you know, what's interesting to me is, you know, you gotta build a culture with every team. Okay, how did you get. Did you have a trick or something that you did to really get the players to open up with each other so that you really could hear each other's story and have that shared experience that would create a bond.
- [51:44]
Roy Williams
Yeah, I think it's important for you to know that guy that you're working right beside, he's got to be able to do the best job for you to be successful. So why don't you know everything you can about him? And we talked to Each player, we got them to talk to each other. And I think that for us, my job was pretty easy to figure out, try to win a national championship and get my guys to the NBA. I mean, that's what it was all about. Whether I like to people to say, well, it was my job to get my guys to get their degree. Well, in today's college game, the last 30, 40 years, it's just been get to the NBA because they watch the TV program on cribs or cars where they show when NBA players got 12 cars in his garage underneath his house. Well, that's what you're faced with at our level of basketball. And so for us, every day you've got to do the best you can to make yourself better. But for me, I had to win or I was going to be fired. And I had to help our guys reach their own individual dreams or goals or it wasn't going to be successful either. And so I made up a lot of thoughts. I mean, one that was really not very good, but I still loved it. It said that the teams that win their players get the awards and rewards. You know, that's not really very good. But I said, guys, if we win, you've got a better chance to reach your dreams. And another one that I do think is good, and I'll tell you a funny story about it is I said, you know, Rome was not built in a day, but it was worked on every day. And I used that in my college coaching career in Phoenix a few years ago. Not 17 when we won it, but even after I retired the bus transportation to take the fans to the arena and the coaches and everything else. Bus pulls down the road. Wanda and I are walking on the street and Ola said, look at that. And on the side of the bus it said, rome was not built today, but it was worked on every day. So I think little things like that were important. I didn't have very many guys transfer. Now everybody transfers at the drop of the hat. But we made it about them and about us together, but tried to never forget their own individual dreams and goals.
- [53:58]
David Novak
One of the things about Carolina basketball is Carolina and Duke one of the greatest rivalries of all time. You know, what was it about that Carolina, Duke rivalry that taught you the biggest leadership lesson?
- [54:12]
Roy Williams
Well, it was unusual and people can say, well, Ohio State, Michigan, football. But truly in my mind, the greatest sports rivalry in college athletics is Duke, North Carolina basketball. And I base a lot of it on if before they play the first game on Saturday that week, ESPN plays 15 of the games in the past. And every time they put up there after 4,000 games, Duke has scored two points less than North Carolina. I mean, it's. It's there. We're eight to 10 miles apart. I've never gotten a car and timed it or measured it, but it's somewhere 8 to 10 miles. When a guy comes and visits North Carolina, flies into Raleigh Durham Airport. When he comes in to visit Duke, he flies into Raleigh Durham Airport. And in the old days, players used to play pickup together. They would come to Chapel Hill the most because Chapel Hill was just college town, whereas Durham was a city and Duke University was over there. And I think the Duke coaches got them to stop coming over for the. The pickup games. But Vic Bubas, Mike Shashevsky put Duke at such a high level. What? Dean Smith did it. Frank McGuire and Coach Smith did it North Carolina. So a lot of the times you're playing and both teams are in the top two, top five, top ten in the country, it's going to get the most attention. And so I think with the proximity of the schools, the fact that a lot of guys visited both schools before they chose to go to the other one, I think that that had a lot to do with it. But on game night, Duke in North Carolina is a different beast. I'm telling you, it's not. I don't care what you say about, you know, Indiana, Ohio State or any on the night that Duke in North Carolina plays, you know, who knows? Everybody. And so it's in with Mike and myself. I mean, we had a great relationship. It was built on respect. You know, he doesn't play golf. I do play golf. We've. He's got his family and his job. I got my family and my job. We didn't socialize a lot, but there was a tremendous amount of respect and. And I generally like him. And I think that Coach Smith set the bar and Mike came in and tried to get there, and then Mike set the bar and I came in and tried to get there. And it's okay to have that kind of confrontation twice a year and enjoy the heck out of it and realize that at the end of the night, everybody knows who wins that game.
- [56:48]
David Novak
And I believe everybody does.
- [56:50]
Roy Williams
Everybody knows.
- [56:51]
David Novak
Boy. Right? It's been so much fun. And I want to ask some more with my lightning round, of course.
- [56:57]
Roy Williams
Question.
- [56:57]
David Novak
So you ready for this?
- [56:58]
Roy Williams
Yep.
- [56:59]
David Novak
The three words that best describe you.
- [57:01]
Roy Williams
Hard work and love. Hard work is the name of my book. And then the other thing is that if I love You. I love you. It's not any fake thing.
- [57:13]
David Novak
If you could be one person for a day besides yourself, who would it be?
- [57:17]
Roy Williams
Myself is the best because he's the luckiest guy that ever lived was Roy Williams. I would like to, you know, Mickey Mantle was a hero of mine growing up.
- [57:26]
David Novak
What's your biggest pet peeve?
- [57:27]
Roy Williams
People not caring enough.
- [57:29]
David Novak
Who would play you in a movie?
- [57:30]
Roy Williams
Congratulations. I've never had that question asked. Oh, I loved Cool Hand Luke with the Paul Newman.
- [57:38]
David Novak
There you go. Who's in your dream golf foursome, dead or alive?
- [57:43]
Roy Williams
You know, that's a question I've been asked a lot. And the first time I was asked, I gave this answer. And every time since, you know, you think I'm going to say Michael Jordan, Beyonce and Arnold Palmer or something like that. But it would be three of my buddies because I've never enjoyed things as much as I have one of my buddies I played against when he was 13, 13 years old, playing Babe Ruth baseball. My high school coach until the last six or seven years was in my favorite foursome. And so it would be my buddies because that's the place. They give me more crap than anybody can expect, you know, because they see this old famous coach and, you know, the people in North Carolina or Kansas when I was coaching at both places were really nice and my buddies don't give me any slack whatsoever. So it would be. It would be three of my buddies.
- [58:36]
David Novak
What's the meal you have with your family every year on your birthday?
- [58:40]
Roy Williams
Oh, it's an easy deal. My mother was a great cook and I loved fried chicken, biscuits and gravy. And so started this probably 15 years ago, once we started having grandchildren that on my birthday, I don't want any presents, I don't want anybody go spend any money. Let's just get together and either my wife, Wanda, or Katie, my son's wife, will fix biscuits and gravy. And you don't have to get any presents or anything, but let's all be together. And that's the greatest birthday present I can ever have.
- [59:14]
David Novak
What's the one thing you do just for you.
- [59:15]
Roy Williams
I'm stupid enough to still think that I can be a good golfer.
- [59:20]
David Novak
If I turned on the radio in your car, what would I hear?
- [59:22]
Roy Williams
It's easy. You would hear country music or soul music. Marvin Gaye, I mean, and this is just humorous, I think maybe it's not appropriate, but Marvin Gaye before, I guess probably, maybe most two years, we were pretty successful. I would listen to Marvin Gaye and The song I'd listen to the most is let's Get it on. Wasn't talking about the same thing I was talking about, but it was that idea of boys, let's get it on tonight. You know, that kind of thing. I love it.
- [59:50]
David Novak
What's something about you that few people would know?
- [59:54]
Roy Williams
I'm the pickiest eater they've ever seen.
- [59:57]
David Novak
What's one of your daily rituals? Something that you never miss?
- [60:00]
Roy Williams
I think my routine every day is to try to do something that'll help me be successful at the end. I still try to work out, walk, don't sprint anymore. But I cannot go a day that I don't do something physically to help my body.
- [60:18]
David Novak
Great, we're out of the lightning round. I appreciate that. Just a couple more questions. I'll let you go coach. You know, for almost 50 years, you were coach, and when you stepped away from the game, who were you without the whistle?
- [60:32]
Roy Williams
I don't know yet. It's been five years. You know, I miss it every single day. Every single day. But what I miss is the relationships. I miss the locker room. I miss the bus rides. I miss preparing. I miss the relationships. As I told you, to go see Kobe White, who only played one year for me, and that was seven years ago, but to go see him play is something that I love. But for me, it's a different game now by name, image and likeness and the transfer portal, because I used to really try to make it a personal thing about. I'm going to be here every day for the rest of your life. You're only going to play for me for four years or three or two or one. But I'm going to be here for the rest of your life. And that part of it in college basketball has changed dramatically right now.
- [61:25]
David Novak
Roy, you and Wanda, you've been married for a long time, and you have two children, Kimberly and Scott. And you're also the grandfather to their children. You know, how do you. How do you transfer your leadership to. To home base? To home.
- [61:42]
Roy Williams
You know, to them, I'm just pop. You know, they. It's funny, especially the grandkids, because I went through it with Scott and Kimmy, too. When Scott and Kimmy, when we first got to Kansas, and people are coming up to me and asking for their autograph, and Scott and Kimmy are looking around like, what is the matter with these people? You know, so why do they want your autograph kind of thing. And it's a little bit. When the grandkids first see that they're looking around like, what is this going on? But as I said, you know, for my birthday, the only present I want is all of us to be together. And I'm still old Roy, and that's never going to change. And to them, I'm still Pop. And at Christmas, I get a new cover for my phone every year with all the grandchildren's pictures on there. And if you told me, pop over, there's a box for you. It's got $10 million. You want to open that First I want to say, where's my phone cover? Because that's what I treasure. It's in my pocket all the time.
- [62:43]
David Novak
You know, you're a Hall of Famer, national champion, several times. You know, I'm curious, what's your unfinished business now? How do you define it?
- [62:53]
Roy Williams
One is being stupid. But I still think I've only shot my age one time on a golf course. So I've gotten 75. It's getting a lot easier. But for me, there's nothing I love more than being with my buddies on the golf course or shooting craps, for example. There's nothing I like more than being with my grandchildren. I mean, I was asked to do something at the Final Four this year and I'm not going because it's Easter weekend. And two times in my life I've hit Easter eggs for my grandchildren at the sight of the Final Four when we were playing. But I'm not going to miss hiding easter eggs. They're 16 and 14 now. They're getting a little past it with the 8 year old and the 7 year old. It's a new deal for them. And so that to me, I'm not even going to the Final Four this year because it's Easter weekend, because Roy Williams is going to hide Easter eggs for his grandchildren.
- [63:52]
David Novak
Awesome. And last question. What's one piece of advice you'd give to anyone who wants to be a better leader?
- [63:58]
Roy Williams
You know, you've got to. This is really easy for me to say. You've got to understand their situation. What are they in it for? Are they just trying to make a living? Are they trying to keep going and getting better and better? Because I'm only as good as my assistants. I'm only as good as my players. And every day I've got to make sure that they understand and they feel that what they're doing is extremely important. We don't do anything just to check off a box. Everything you're doing is going to make our basketball program better. Everything you're doing is going to make our players better. And at the end, you know, again, the teams that win, the players get the awards and rewards, but so do the coaches, and it's our lives. And I told them this when I run my camp, every little boy in that camp, I mean, in Kansas one year, we had 1100 kids one week and 1100 kids the next week. And I told staff every day that somebody's son, somebody's nephew, somebody's grandson. It's up to you to make sure that that kid has a great camp experience. And I walked into the locker room, not locker room, but the pro shop at Augusta national, long time ago, went with the dean of the business school from University of Kansas, and a guy behind the desk says, coach Williams, man, it's been a long time. I had no clue who he was. And I looked at him and I said, I apologize. I'm not placing you. He said, I came to Kansas. Excuse me. I came to North Carolina Basketball camp two years, and I was in your gym both years. And I told my parents, that's the best summer experience I ever had. And my brother and I had to go to camp. We had to go to camp. Mom and dad were trying to get rid of us for a couple of weeks. And he said, to this day, it's still the greatest camp experience I ever had. So when I talk to those coaches, I say, you got to understand, it's somebody's son, somebody's grandson. But that guy could grow up to be working in the pro shop at Augusta national, because at first I thought, God, I hope you had a great experience. Because I didn't want him to throw me out because he hated camp or something like that. And so I tell him, it's somebody's son, somebody's nephew, somebody's grandson. It could be the guy who ends up working in the pro shop, Augusta national, or it could be the guy that you go up the steps to get on the plane, and you start to turn right, and you hear somebody say, coach Williams. And you turn and you look. And I said, kai Ballard. He said, that is amazing. How do you remember me? And I had him in high school as a ninth grade, and I had him for physical education, but you never can tell. I wanted to make sure that Kai still liked me. I didn't want him to get up in that airplane and start doing this. He said, you realize how much you ran me my freshman year? And I said, kai, I was inexperienced at that time. Don't hold it against me tonight. But when you deal with that young man, he's going to grow up, and you never can tell when it might happen, that he has a reflection and you want it to be a great one.
- [67:18]
David Novak
Yeah, that's great. And, coach, I have to tell you, you're an amazing person, amazing man. And if anybody deserves an award and a reward, it's you. And I want to thank you so much for taking the time being on this show. Really appreciate you.
- [67:33]
Roy Williams
Well, I tell you what, I was in Louisville my first year after I retired. I went to the game at Louisville, and those people were so nice to me. And the Yum Yum. I think it's Yum Yum Center.
- [67:47]
David Novak
Yeah. The Yum KFC Yum Center.
- [67:49]
Roy Williams
Yeah. The line for my autograph was 30 minutes during pregame warmup and everything. And they were so gracious to me. And I always thought that was one of the neatest buildings I ever coached in. And. And I like chicken. So I'm right down your alley.
- [68:06]
David Novak
Boy, you're right about that,
- [68:14]
Podcast Host
David. Roy Williams has got me fired up about March Madness. I can't believe how emotional Roy is. I mean, when you were talking about that Jayhawks team, he almost got a little choked up there.
- [68:25]
David Novak
Oh, yeah, he loved his team, he loved his players, and I think that's why they go all out for him, you know, I said, you know, you cry a lot, you know, and he says, yeah, I think it's okay as long as it's authentic. And he is a very authentic guy. You can just see that he is so genuine in his belief and care for his teams and others. And I love that. You know, people talk about the importance of being vulnerable as a leader. Well, you know, he talked about how he lost that big game and last second shot, and he couldn't even talk to his team. He had Michael Jordan talk to his team because he just didn't know what to say. But I think having that kind of vulnerability to say that's how you really felt, that makes you kind of like the guy. Not just kind of like him. It makes you want love the guy and want to believe in the guy and root for him. And I'm sure. I'm sure anybody that was touched by Roy Williams feels that way.
- [69:25]
Podcast Host
Absolutely. Well, David, I can't wait to debrief some of the concepts that you and Roy talked about so that our listeners have some real tangible takeaways that they can apply to their life and to their leadership.
- [69:35]
David Novak
Hey, by the way, Kula, it's really great that we're talking about coaching because that's Just what I did with you, you know, we went through our three by five card, you know, who you are today, how you can be more effective, and, you know, I got some good tips from you as well. But that, that coaching process, the interaction between the player and the coach, you know, I think when you do it, it's so valuable because both people really benefit. And, and you know, I think that's, that's one thing that I see in all great leaders and all great coaches is they're, they're trying to find, you know, more knowledge about their players, about the people on their team so that they can help them. And at the same time, they're looking for people to give them feedback too, so that they can become even better leaders.
- [70:22]
Podcast Host
David, the first topic that I want to get your take on here is this idea of continuous improvement. And of course it's something that leaders talk about all the time. Roy in the episode talked about how he told his players not to step off the court until they've done something to make themselves better. So as a leader who is trying to integrate this idea of continuous improvement into your culture, how do you do that in a way that doesn't feel like a grind for the people that work for you?
- [70:51]
David Novak
Well, I think people want to win. And basically you talk about winning, talk about the importance of doing the little things well so that you add up having big results. It's sort of like compounding interest. If you could improve yourself 1% or your business 1% a day, man, you keep doing that and you wake up and you go, wow, look what we've done, look what we've accomplished. So the other thing you talk about is the importance of continuous improvement, that if you're standing still, competition is not, they're going to go forward. So you, you've got to, you've got to continually up your game and then just look at all the great leaders and, and see what they've done. I mean, Roy talked about a couple of leaders that he just really admired and Michael Jordan and Tiger, and that's all that they were about, was just getting better and better and better every single day. And I think that that is so important when you think about what's going to drive performance. Not only performance, peak performance.
- [71:50]
Podcast Host
He talked about a lot. I think the phrase was, you know, we're driven by dreams, not pushed by our problems. And I thought about that when you said, you know, talk about winning all the time. He talked about their dream of being the national champion and being the last team standing during The March Madness tournament all the time and practice from the very beginning of the season all the way through to the end. And so being driven by that dream and desire to win is something that will keep people motivated so that they don't feel like they're just grinding it out without ever getting to the mountaintop.
- [72:20]
David Novak
I've said this so many times, it probably drives people crazy, but, you know, people do not wake up every day wanting to be a part of something mediocre. They wake up wanting every day wanting to be a part of something great. And that's what all the great coaches do. You know, I had the opportunity to interview John Wooden, the great late John Wooden, and, you know, he talked about how important it was to make everybody feel like they were part of the team and that everybody was valuable and that the only way you could get to the. To cut down those nets in the end was that everybody played the role that they need to play. And, you know, and he talked about how Kareem Abdul Jabbar, he was like the engine and, you know, some other player was sort of like a nut on the wheel. But, man, if you didn't. If you didn't have it going, that, that that car was not going to run, and that kind of focus, that kind of intention really gets people paying attention to what really matters.
- [73:23]
Podcast Host
Another thing I thought was so interesting was when Roy talked about his practice structure. It was very simple, but it was very clear and almost surgical in the way that he went about structuring his practices. And in fact, your friend Eric Church saw this practice structure and he stole it for his band because he liked it so much. David, how do you think about structuring practices and how does that concept translate?
- [73:48]
David Novak
Well, I think the reason why Eric Church liked what Roy Williams was doing is because the minute he walked out on the floor, he had a plan and they executed. Okay. They're gonna run wind sprints for 10 minutes. They're gonna shoot free throws for 20 minutes. They were gonna do X for 10 minutes, you know, and then, you know, you go through a three hour practice and you've covered the gamut of the things that you have to really be good at to prepare for the team that you've got coming up. And, you know, Eric says, man, we should. I do rehearsals all the time. Why don't we think that take that same kind of approach to the band? And I think that's just. You need to take that same kind of approach to business as well, you know, because the fact of the matter is Time is precious and the last thing you want to do is waste it. And when Roy Williams had a practice, they maximize the time so that people could get the most out of it. In the meetings that I see in the corporate world, so much time is wasted. People let people go through 45 page decks when they could be five pages and you get to the point where you could actually really, really, you know, get real good discussion on something versus just have a one way conversation. To me, I looked at everything that we did as an opportunity to maximize productivity. You know, if, if I had a dinner with the board, I just didn't have everybody sit at the table and eat and, you know, talk to each other and not walk away with something. You know, I had two of our top people come in, talk about the, give a little overview of what they're working on. And we then we asked questions and talked about the, the challenges of that business for a couple hours and man, we got so much out of it. It's that kind of thinking that that leads to not wasting time and making the most of every opportunity. And I think leaders need to think of the time they have is the most precious thing that they can spend and make the most out of it. Don't waste time. And that's what great preparation, great practices does.
- [76:00]
Podcast Host
It reminds me one time I had the privilege of going to a Seahawks walkthrough. So it was the day before the game. They walked through every single play in the playbook and Coach Carroll didn't really say anything. He would just clap to start the play and double clap to end the play. And that signaled to the players to start the next play. And it was the most efficient thing I think I've ever witnessed in terms of a team because there's like you know, 80 players and everybody knew exactly where they were supposed to be at what time, and no one wasted even a second going through that playbook. So I also think what it communicates as a leader to the people that you're coaching is that you really care about their performance too, because you've actually thought through how to utilize the time you have with them in the most efficient and effective way so that they perform at their absolute best.
- [76:50]
David Novak
Super point. Kula could not agree more.
- [76:52]
Podcast Host
Well, speaking of success, David, I was a little surprised to hear that Roy said he found it easier to build up a struggling program than to sustain a successful one. What's your take on that? I mean, which situation would you rather lead in?
- [77:07]
David Novak
Oh, I always wanted the turnaround. Give me the turnaround situation. Give me the bad situation.
- [77:14]
Podcast Host
Why is that easier?
- [77:15]
David Novak
Oh, because it's. All you have is upside. Okay. But once you have a really great program and your job is to sustain it, man, there's a lot, a lot of pressure on you because it's not the apparent opportunity that you have in a bad situation situation, but the reality is that leaders have to define the unfinished business in every situation and get the team rallied around it to really perform. But, you know, I think, what's that phrase? Nobody wants to follow John Wooden since we're on basketball. That's because he won so many national championships. Why would you want to take over that program? Nobody will ever be able to walk in the shoes of the great John Wooden. And by the way, it took them years. I don't know if they ever have really developed a kind of program that they had since John Wooden was leading it. Because you know what, John Wooden was a pretty tough act to follow.
- [78:16]
Podcast Host
So, David, you always prefer the turnaround situation.
- [78:19]
David Novak
Yeah, until I had to sustain excellence. You know, I'd like to start out with a turnaround. Like in my particular situation, I was really lucky. I went into KFC and it was out turned turnaround situation. We turned it around. Same thing at Pizza Hut. Then I got a chance to run yum brands. Nobody thought we were going to do well. We were a spin off from PepsiCo, the black sheep of PepsiCo, and a drag on PepsiCo's earnings. And we were able to build that business. And after six or seven years, we really had a track record. Then we kept it going and it was the sustained excellence that really made our company an outstanding company. And you take a lot of pride in that as well. But for me, it was a lot of fun to look back and say, man, remember when people thought of us this way and now look at what we are. And now that we are what we are, man, we got to keep it going. Because you know what? Winning is the only option.
- [79:16]
Podcast Host
I love it, David. Well, on winning, let's wrap this episode by you telling me who you think is going to take it all this march.
- [79:25]
David Novak
I think it's probably Duke, which pains me to say, I was about to
- [79:29]
Podcast Host
say, wow, you're publicly saying that.
- [79:31]
David Novak
Yeah, I'm not a big Duke fan, but I know a lot of Duke people who are great people and I'll be happy for them, but I'll never be rooting for Duke because I still remember when Christian Laettner, you know, hit that shot at the last second to beat Kentucky and I was a big Kentucky fan, and I've hated Duke ever since. And hey, what can I say?
- [79:56]
Podcast Host
What can you say? Well, you and Coach Williams have that in common.
- [80:02]
David Novak
I always respected Coach K, and I respect Duke very much because they have sustained excellence, just like North Carolina has had sustained excellence and Kansas has had sustained excellence. And, you know, it's kind of fun when you're like a Pat Kelsey who took over Louisville, which had sustained excellence and needed to be turned around, and now he's getting the joy of turning that program around, bringing it back. You know, that's the kind of situation I always liked. I always liked that. The fact that the raw talent was always there, the brand was always there, but somehow it'd been mismanaged, and you have a chance to bring it back, and then it's really hard, but it's a lot of fun to driving sustained excellence as well. And that's what Roy Williams has done. You know, Roy Williams went back to North Carolina, by the way, when they hadn't been in the NCAA tournament for a couple of years. And, you know, he. He brought it back. And that's really exciting to do, and it's exciting to have a guy like Roy Williams on our show, because if there's anybody that knows how to do it, he does.
- [81:13]
Podcast Host
He absolutely does.
- [81:15]
David Novak
So let's just go back and summarize what we've talked about here. You know, continuous improvement is the name of the game. You don't want to waste people's time with your rehearsals, your practice, your meetings, or anything that you do. Make the most of all the time you have. It's your most precious asset when it comes to building your team and getting great results. And, hey, it's okay to, you know, wear your emotions on your sleeve. You know, no problem. Just be authentic when you do it, and people will love you for being open and caring. And then, you know what? Have fun, you know, turning around things and driving the performance with great teams and keeping it going, because that's what the business is all about. And defining the unfinished business is what you've got to be all about as a leader.
- [82:05]
Podcast Host
I love it. David, thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of How Leaders Lead. Catch us next Thursday and we will see you soon.
- [82:22]
David Novak
Tim and I, we do these podcasts all the time. He. This is one of his most prized possessions, Coach, this Kansas Jayhawk. And your autographs right there. How does that make you feel when you see that?
- [82:35]
Roy Williams
It's the neatest feeling you can possibly have when you have a kid, and I'll say he's to have a basketball or have a picture. And I've had so many people come up and say, coach, you were on our refrigerator for five years. Because in camp, I would take a picture with every kid, and they used me as the standard because the kid kept growing and I didn't. But every time they show me a picture of me somewhere with them, or every time I see somebody that's got a Kansas or North Carolina basketball with my signature, the first thing I think of is how lucky you were. You coached at North Carolina and you coached at Kansas, and people have a love affair with both of those places,
- [83:19]
David Novak
and they have a love affair with you, too, Coach.