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How Leaders Lead with David Novak
#290: Mariam Naficy, Founder and Chairman, Minted – See the possibilities in people
00:57:40
Listen to this leadership podcast with Minted Founder and Chairman Mariam Naficy and discover the power of seeing the potential in people.
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- [00:00]
Podcast Host
Hello, friends, and welcome to another episode of How Leaders Lead with David Novak. Today we have Maryam Nafisi on the show. She's the founder of Minted, which is a design driven crowdsourced marketplace that connects artists with consumers to deliver high end stationery, home decor and art. Now, Myriam is the type of leader who knows how to get the very best out of her people. Whether it's with customers, independent artists, or her own team. She leads with the belief that people are full of possibilities. And in this episode, you'll learn how to embrace that same belief so that you too can get the very best out of your team. Enjoy this episode with David and Miriam and I'll see you at the debrief.
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David Novak
Minted has products in over 75 million homes worldwide. Have you ever walked into someone's house and spotted a Minted piece on the wall without them knowing who you are?
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Maryam Nafisi
Yes, it's happened in public places like offices. That's happened on Samsung Frame, you know, art, Samsung Frame TVs. I often see minted art that, you know, those TVs are all over the place or just an office where there might be holiday cards that people have pinned up. So yeah, it's fun to encounter the product in the real world.
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David Novak
Yeah, I was going to say, what's that like when you go, you walk in and see something that you created?
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Maryam Nafisi
It's humbling sometimes it can be overwhelming. But I guess after it's sort of almost a lifetime of work, 18 years. So I guess that's what happens when you spend a lot of time on
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David Novak
something and you've spent a lot of time on some great things. You know, your mom is an artist, your uncle is a graphic designer, your aunt May son is a well known installation artist in la. Art was basically the family business to a certain extent. Was there ever a moment growing up where you thought you might actually become an artist yourself?
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Maryam Nafisi
No, I unfortunately did not get any of those jeans. They skipped me. But I really enjoy being with artists. I love looking at beautiful things. I have a very, I'm very sensitive aesthetically, so I really enjoy beautiful art, beautiful design and I really love working with people who can take those creative risks and put themselves out there because it's really like almost exposing a part of you that is so personal and I really respect people who can do that.
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David Novak
What's your favorite piece of art that you have in your own home?
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Maryam Nafisi
I have a piece of, I have a photographic piece that is by a female artist named Lala Asadi and she interpreted her childhood took a photograph. But first she calligraphed everybody and everything with calligraphy. In the photo, she actually drew on people's faces. It's an amazing piece where it looks like someone laid. Yeah, that's probably my favorite piece in my home.
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David Novak
You know, for anyone who hasn't heard of Minted, what is it and how to. What's your business model?
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Maryam Nafisi
Minted is basically connecting the creativity of, you know, tens of thousands of people, artists and designers, around the world with consumers. So we crowdsource the art and design from independent artists, and we turn that into customizable templates in holiday cards, wedding invitations, also wall art that consumers anywhere can purchase. So I would call it a big design marketplace, and it's global. The artists and designers are from over 100 countries, and consumers are in the U.S. and actually, the artists and designers are all over the US as well. I mean, a lot of small towns, I would say smaller cities in the US which you wouldn't necessarily think of as the design hub of the US There are artists and designers in all of our cities. We have formed a community of people who really care about each other, who have become friends with each other, who. Who earn money on our platform, who've make a living. It's about probably something like 80% women, 60% are moms. And so you've got a lot of moms selling to other moms, if you will, because the consumers are moms as well, or they're either brides or either getting married or they're becoming moms for the first time.
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David Novak
I can't wait to dive deeper into how you lead. But first, I want to take you back a little bit. What's a story from your childhood that shaped the kind of leader you are today?
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Maryam Nafisi
You know, I grew up in about five countries because my dad was a development economist who worked on agricultural development. So we worked in countries that were receiving U.S. or United nations aid, and he worked with farmers. So we would go. We went to all sorts of places. We lived in Kuwait, Lebanon, Tanzania, Iran, and Egypt. I would go around with my mom sometimes to markets. You know, like, you would go out to a market to buy something. Either it was like the butcher or the. There would be a special butcher shop or a special vegetable market, or you would go to the bazaar and buy something beautiful, like a handmade item. And I think I just got a really good sense of how millions of people in the world make their living and try to set up as independents. And I care a lot about empowering the dignity of people in their work. How do you create dignity and joy and passion in work? And that has affected me pretty deeply.
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David Novak
And you really saw entrepreneurialism in action.
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Maryam Nafisi
Yes, yes. I mean, I think people have to really hustle to make a living in a lot of these countries that I was living in.
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David Novak
And as I understand it, you came to the United States as. As a refugee from Iran. What was that like?
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Maryam Nafisi
You know, it was pretty disconcerting at the time because my parents, who were about 40, had to financially mostly start over again. And it was pretty clear there was a lot of financial stress. So I think I would say it was. It was pretty. It was a pretty harsh transition. On the other hand, we were lucky enough. I was in a pretty good school, public school district in Maryland, and that was very, very lucky because I felt like my teachers were fantastic, and I was a pretty applied student. And that was all, you know, that was the positive, is that the US was, and I still think really is a place where people can follow and can follow their passion and can apply themselves and really lift themselves up. And so I feel very lucky. I actually think my dad thinks of us as refugees, and I think of us as immigrants. It's funny that we have a different definition. And I asked him what does that mean to him? And he said, you know, a refugee is somebody who leaves unwillingly, and an immigrant leaves willingly. And I feel pretty lucky, actually, all things considered, that even though that was a pretty unwilling event or transition, I ended up here. I can't imagine my life not being
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David Novak
in the US it was unwilling because it was during the revolution, right?
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Maryam Nafisi
Yes, yes. I was actually. A little story about me is that my dad that night said, you know, this is a very historic moment. Why don't we go for a walk and I'm gonna show you. Let's go out and on the streets of Tehran and see what this is like. My mom said, oh, no, it's too dangerous. You shouldn't go. And he said, no, no, I think she's old enough. So I was 8, and I took my little Vivitar camera that I had just been given for Christmas, and I walked out with him to the streets of Tehran where people were celebrating and people were pulling big statues down. It was like a big party. Everyone was feeling pretty happy, and I think they didn't quite understand what was around the corner. And so I took pictures of the revolution with my little Vivitar camera. Yeah. Which I still have.
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David Novak
You know, after college, I understand you ended up at a very prestigious investment Bank. But you left to co found Eve in 1998. That's one of the first beauty e commerce sites in the country, in the world. What made you want to break out and leave a cushy gold shoe firm or whatever and be an entrepreneur?
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Maryam Nafisi
Yeah, Goldman was fantastic. I learned a lot about. Well, first I developed a work ethic, the analyst program. You work really long hours, right? So you get used to that. So I just didn't see myself as being passionate about finance. And I really felt at that point that I needed to go see something else. So I came to California. And then I was exposed to entrepreneurship. This concept, which had never been. I'd never even remotely thought about because my. My. My family is not a. A business family. Nobody in the family is in business. I came to San Francisco and saw what was happening here. And what I really loved was the application of risk. The ability to take a risk, fail and get up again, and that people would be accepting of risk taking. And I just felt that. Well, first, I felt that the idea of the US being the biggest consumer market in the world, that you could actually create an experiment and have the world's largest experimental petri dish, if you will, for an idea to see if you have good ideas or bad ideas. That was fascinating. Second, I felt that, you know, it didn't really matter who you are if you had a good product and people wanted your product. People wouldn't care if you were female, if you were, you know, Asian American. They don't care. They'll buy what they really love. And so I felt like it was a really great equalizer. And third, honestly, David, I'm a pretty big shopper. I love shopping. And it's. I spent. I spent all my time to my mother's great chagrin. When I wasn't doing homework, I was in the mall in the 1980s, the 1980s shopping mall when I got back, when we moved back here. And I really love beautiful things. I love looking at them. I like to touch fabrics. I would go touch Ann Taylor fabrics all the time. And I am a consumer, you know, and I'm passionate about shopping and creating shopping experiences for people and beautiful objects that they might really treasure. And that's just me, you know. So I thought if I can. If I can really entrepreneur and create great products and experiences for people, that's what I'm going to be passionate about. And therefore, that's what I'm going to be best at. Because, you know, if you're really passionate about something, you spend 24, 7 thinking about it versus something you're not so passionate about. You're not going to, you're not going to be as good as people who are passionate about it.
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David Novak
And I really enjoyed your commencement speech that you gave to Northeastern. And one of the things you talked in there is that by taking the path of entrepreneurship, you could create your own culture as a female because you worked in a very male oriented culture and you know, which you didn't find necessarily female friendly. Would you mind sharing your thoughts on that?
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Maryam Nafisi
Sure. I mean, I think it was creating, you know, when you're an entrepreneur, you're creating culture in many different ways. So one of the things you can do is say like you, you're going to be. Gender is not going to come up at all. You're not even going to think about gender at all. It's just a thing that doesn't come up. So that was pretty appealing. I think there are certain industries that are still, I think, predominantly male, have a little bit more of a male leading culture. I don't think it was the only reason I wanted to create my own companies. I mean, predominantly what I wanted to do was create products that sold very well and that people loved. So it was really about creating consumer experiences and products that people loved. But I do like this idea of just of creating a culture that is, for example, at Minted, we have a culture that even everybody's pretty analytical. Even the merchants who pick designs are pretty analytical. So this means that we are hiring and training merchants pretty early on in their careers. And for example, there's a test, we give merchants a financial model test where they have to be able to build their own financial model in order to be a merchant at Minted, which is not necessarily the same requirement that other retail companies have for their merchants. As an example, you know, it's about what you put into the hiring process and how you promote people, how you find people, how you find opportunities for people that I find so fascinating. But one of those things is the fact that, you know, we don't really care. We don't care who, we don't care about the surface stuff. We don't care about anything that's surface. We care about things that are deeper than that content. The content, the strategy, the thinking. And we don't really care about gender.
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David Novak
And, you know, I want to get our way into Minted, which we will do in a few minutes. But tell us a story of how you acquired the EVE domain. It's a hoot.
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Maryam Nafisi
Yeah. So my partner and I, Varsha And I came up with this name, eve.com, eve.com. so that's a great name. That's a great URL, three letter URL, which even in 1998 was starting to become quite expensive and valuable. And we looked up the domain owner and at that time you could find the person very easily. Now it's kind of obscured. And we called the person who was the owner and it was a mom in Virginia who had several children and one of them was a five year old named Eve. And she had bought, I think the older sister's name was a much longer name, her older sister's name. So she bought one for the older sister and one for Eve. Little Eve was five years old. She said, Look, I bought these URLs and I, I can't make the decision. Well, first she thought, who are these people, these two young women calling me? They're not serious buyers. I don't know what to do with them. So she said, I'm going to put you on the phone with Eve and you have to convince Eve. So I said, sure, okay, I'll get on the phone with Eve and this little girl. This is before I was a mom, so I had no idea how to talk to a five year old. I'm at this point, I'm 28. This little girl answers the phone and I said, would you like to sell us your URL? She was like, what? And I said, would you like to sell us your URL? That conversation was like ships passing the night. This girl, little girl had no idea what I was talking about. And I was, I'm sure her mom thought it was pretty funny. The whole situation was very comical. Bill Gross, our investor, later stepped in, called the mother and really showed us what negotiation really looked like, which was, okay, you're going to get stock in Eve.com, honorary board seat, trips to Disneyland, free educational software from my startup. How about that? And it was a yes at that point. And I was like, okay, we should have probably done something like that. So we did end up with the URL, but not before my very somewhat humbling conversation with this five year old where I could not make the deal happen.
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David Novak
That's funny. And you raised $26 million and went from zero to 120 employees in six months. And you had impressive revenue growth right
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out of the box.
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What did leading at that kind of speed teach you?
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Maryam Nafisi
I think it was just about first keeping your head down when there's a lot of competition in the market. So it's very Apropos at this time right now, actually it seems very, it's very reminiscent of the AI time we're in right now because at that time there was VC money flowing in to fund. You know, we went in first, we opened up first, but there were something like four venture backed competitors who launched right after us. And you could end up panicking, looking over your shoulder, et cetera, but you really, I found that just keeping your head down, making sure you were executing and doing the absolute best job possible for your customers, focusing on that rather than on your competition was the way to win. And we ended up being the largest in the market and ended up, you know, successfully selling the company before the dot com bubble burst in April 2000. So we sold the company for a bit over 100 million after operating it for just a year. And so all things told, it was successful for our investors. But I think it really came from focusing on competition. Focusing not on focusing on the competition, but focusing on oneself and what one is doing. I'm not sure I'd recommend building 120 people, 120 person company that quickly if you don't have to, but if you feel like you have to. I think I learned having great partners, my partner and I divvied up the work. So she had to hire three VPs and I had to hire three VPs, for example. And then those vice presidents hired everybody else. And so we really had partners to do something like that.
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David Novak
Well, and your timing was great because the dot com bubble just first, there's no question about that. What made you so prescient? You know, you know, what made you sell Eve? And looking back, is there anything you you'd have done differently?
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Maryam Nafisi
I think what made me sell Eve is that you're not going to believe this, but we actually raised three rounds in one year, which is sort of nuts. That 26 million was raised over several rounds inside of 12 months. And then when we went to raise the fourth round, we started getting questions like when are you going to be profitable? And you know, all of a sudden I sensed some market resistance to raising for the first time just a little bit of like a little bit tougher questions versus the previous three rounds which were just much, much very, very easy for us to raise. So I started getting a bit nervous. It's not like I could foresee the dot com bubble bursting, but I started getting a little concerned. And with entrepreneurship I feel that you take one big risk and the rest of your experience is spent de risking from then on. So you take this One massive risk in starting the company and then you're trying to de risk from that point on. Obviously later you might take smaller incremental risks and sometimes you have to reinvent companies entirely. But generally speaking, I was in de risking mode and I felt that there was a little bit of a signal of risk. So when we were first approached to sell the company, I went to my partner, I said I felt like we should sell. She supported it and agreed and our investors agreed. Importantly, we had investors who we trusted and they trusted us.
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David Novak
Good call. At the right time. You then shifted gears and started minted. How did that idea come to you?
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Maryam Nafisi
So I was thinking about the fact that the designers I was seeing online were playing Photoshop ping pong, first of all, where they were ping ponging designs back and forth to each other and making them better. So I saw this like crowd collaboration happening and I was thinking generally that I was on the one hand coming at it from a financial engineering perspective and on the other hand looking at cultural change. So on the financial engineering side, I was thinking about stationery was interesting to me because online, stationary, online cards, because there was this inherent viral component that if someone sent you a card, you would turn it over and see sort of what the logo was, who made the card. So there was this inherent virality I was interested in. I was also looking to start a business at the time that I was thinking about entrepreneurship generally like starting another company. So I was looking at a couple of ideas transparently. It wasn't that just this one idea came to me. I was looking at for certain characteristics in a business. So I was actually seeking a business idea to start and I wanted to find one that had low cash needs to start a high average transaction size, high margins, and that ideally had inherent distribution mechanism. And then so that was like the financial engineer part of me. On the cultural side, I was fascinated by this idea that there was talent everywhere. And I'd seen talent overseas, you know, I'd seen designers and artists overseas. So I knew there was talent everywhere. I just couldn't help but feel that when I went to other card companies, either in retail or online, that the designs were not strong enough and that the printing technology was more like, why not take the beauty of a. If you walk into a stationary store in Italy and you see these beautiful marbled backs and these, this foil, the gilt edges and the thick cardstock that is partly made out of cotton, why couldn't we take those techniques and bring them to print on demand technology and really create something super beautiful and create beauty on a mass scale. So I felt that there was an opportunity to do that.
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David Novak
And unlike Eve, which started that gangbusters, as I understand it minted, you had a hard time generating any kind of revenue.
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What happened?
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I mean, how'd you break out of that?
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Maryam Nafisi
Yeah, that was pretty much a disaster. So we had a spend most of our money because I was doubting myself on the crowdsourcing bit of this. I was thinking maybe we should sign on at stationary brands and distribute them just like V1 of the Internet. So most of the money I spent on building that and actually hired a woman out of business school as our director of finance. And then because we didn't have any finance to speak of, no finance activities, I said, do you mind building the website? So she was working on this by day, she was working on building out the website. And by night I was thinking, I still am really drawn to crowdsourcing from independence. I think I'll go to Rent a Coder. Have you guys. Have you heard of Rent a Coder?
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Podcast Host
David?
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Maryam Nafisi
It's a website which is just called Rent a Coder and you can just go find an anonymous coder. And so I went to rentacoder.com and found a engineer to work with me at night. So the evenings I was working with him to build this competition structure for. With. And so I built this, you know, this little tiny experiment. Most of the money was spent on building something completely different. But by night, I was still torn. I was still drawn to this idea of crowdsourcing from independent designers. We, when we opened our doors, we were offering the branded stationery product and nothing was selling at all. Not one sale. It was like crickets. It was terrifying. We'd spent almost all the angel round. We had raised two and a half million and a whole year, and nothing was selling. And as sort of like the last gasp, I held a design competition for save the date cards, which are these, like, save the date cards are what you set out when you're about to get married about. I think we had received 65 entries. And I thought, I squinted at them. I thought, you know, these look pretty good. And we launched those and those. We started getting one or two sales a week of just that product. But we didn't have enough data. So we thought we were doing terribly. We thought we should shut this company, we should. Maybe we should shut the company down. We pivoted towards holiday cards doing the same thing. And then sales went absolutely through the roof, which is a separate story, I can tell you. About if you're interested. But in that interim, nothing was selling when we were doing working on wedding product. And I think in hindsight it was a lack of traffic to give us the right data to judge the business. We should have really probably focused entirely on crowdsourcing and gone with our true gut around crowdsourcing versus brands and holiday cards. You can read better because there was a much more concentrated demand at the holiday time. So you can really get the kind of traffic and the kind of response you need to really measure whether your idea is working well enough. So but in the meantime, the headline is I almost shut it down. It was almost a non starter.
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David Novak
And as I understand it, you ran
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customer service yourself in the first three years. What did that teach you that you couldn't learn any other way?
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Maryam Nafisi
Well, I would write the customer service manuals, I would run the shifts. I would run the shifts till we shut down at 1 in the morning. And I had a newborn baby by the way at the time. So I started minted when my daughter was born. So yeah, so I would run the midnight shift, I would shut the operation down at one in the morning. At that time we were operating on outlook boxes. We didn't have customer service software. So I was triaging all of the inbound emails into folders and boxes that the internal boxes that customer service representatives would then pick up out of those folders. I think. What did I learn? Well, first you know that there's this saying that I didn't understand it before, but it's you build the church for Easter Sunday. I had no idea what that meant until I ran this business, which means you have to build the capacity to run a very peaky business, which anybody in retail really understands. I did not understand that. I mean, I think you have to retain great people for as long as you possibly can, year over year, and then your operation can actually get stronger. So the more we could build up business where we could afford to keep customer service managers in place and retain them over years, that's when you can really achieve those improvements. That's one how difficult the job of customer service really being on the front line is with customers is a very, very difficult job. And I think if everybody could extend courtesy to those people who are on the phone as customer service reps, I think that would be terrific. Because it's a difficult job in retail and restaurants, hospitality everywhere, and to see most customers are fantastic. But sometimes it can be very difficult. You can get a difficult customer on the line. And so I think trying to maintain the morale of your employee base and make sure that they can be treated with respect. That can be pretty difficult for a business owner. I'm sure you've had many experiences like this yourself. So I just became. I think I just developed a lot of appreciation for the retail job itself, for hospitality and retail.
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Podcast Host
I hope you're loving this conversation. Be sure to stay tuned to the very end of the episode. David and I are going to debrief some of the concepts that he talks about in this episode so that you can have some real practical takeaways to apply right away to your leadership and to your life. Stay tuned to the very end of the episode and I'll see you at the debrief.
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David Novak
I love this idea that I learned you have, which is you, you, you, is that your customers are basically friends and family. Treat them that way, you know. You know, tell me about a time that that mindset actually changed the decision you made.
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Maryam Nafisi
We started by just selling to friends and family, and they told their friends, and those friends told their friends. So in a sense, I feel like there are six, six degrees of separation between a company. I tried to infuse that into everybody so that everyone could personalize and feel like, in a sense, like humanize the customers on the other side of the phone, they were really friends of your friends. I got to know customers personally who would order with us over and over again. And I would try to get assigned their tickets every holiday season for years so that I could personally serve them and be that voice and be that familiar person on the other end of the line. It was small decisions every day. Things like I'd see an email coming in in French. I could read French and understand it. So I would try to help with some French inbound, for example. Or I became close to a customer and would serve her every year. And she was my bellwether in the sense that if I could tell that she kept coming back, I was doing something right. One year, I thought to myself, what's happened to her? I haven't heard from her. So I reached out to her, and her son had had an accident, had died, and we instead offered. And it was just odd because this had happened right about the time when I had been thinking, where is she? What's happened to her this year? Maybe we failed her. Maybe our cards are not strong enough. She hasn't come back. But it was that. That's what happened. So I sort of felt very. I cared a lot about our customers as people, not just as transactions. And we then helped her and stepped in to make memorial cards for her son. And so I think those kinds of things, you know, you put good into the universe. There's then good word of mouth about you as a company. I can't necessarily prove that that particular instance changed our trajectory at all, but I like to feel that word of mouth is very, very important. I always think about the net promoter score, and I do think that's a proven concept. And I do think that putting out good and trying to make your customers feel good and infusing your entire organization with that mentality and philosophy is going to help your culture, will help your business as a consumer brand.
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Podcast Host
Yeah.
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David Novak
And I've heard you say that you grow and insulate your business by doing what nobody else wants to do, what's too hard for others to do. Talk about that.
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Maryam Nafisi
In the Valley, a lot of people want to move bits. They don't want to move atoms. And moving atoms, moving physical product and going through what is a massive, massive undertaking to print with quality and to make sure that your cardstock is the thickest cardstock, you're offering a recycled option that's still high quality. Those things take time to perfect. I think one of our biggest moats is the fact is how difficult it is to scale printing and customer service at the peak at the same quality level when most of the universe orders their holiday cards in the space of three weeks. So you can imagine it's really building the church for Easter Sunday that is so difficult. And that's what I mean by you're doing things that are so painful. As a founder with very little capital, take the midnight shift, that sort of thing. Fly around the country to pick the paper out personally and to. And have cards sent to your desk personally to review them. Pick the paper out from the mills, go figure out your printing network, stand that all up, write all the metrics that track your quality. It just goes on and on. Build the systems, track quality. Those are things that are not very pleasant tasks. They're very unpleasant tasks.
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David Novak
What's something you're learning about AI at Minted that other leaders could apply to their own business?
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Maryam Nafisi
I think we have successfully implemented AI in customer service actually as agent assistants. And it's really helped us with scaling to peak. Because the problem with training a workforce and you've got, let's say, three weeks to train a temporary workforce that you're flexing off for the holiday season is that you have very, very little time to train. And then people are there for four, you know, for the four week holiday Period. Like in all of retail, there's this very concentrated period where you have to train, flex the workforce up and then back down again. I can't say enough about how valuable it is to have agent assistance when answering tough questions. And we have a very complicated, complicated product because it's all custom. Can I add this bell and this whistle? You know, and you have to be able to answer pretty complex customer service questions and you have to have everybody understand everything so you're not sort of having to run it up the ladder into a manager to answer questions that are tougher. So having that agent assistance can really scale human. It takes a bit of pressure off that the agent has to remember everything that they just learned in two weeks. So I think that's been incredibly valuable. It could be useful for other complex businesses where the knowledge base is complex and you have to scale quickly. That's one thing that's been very helpful. And you know, I think there are, and this is speaking outside of minted for a moment, I think there are a number of merchandising on site marketing and other tools optimization to be found in the agents, you know, promotional testing tools like what promotion should be offered to which kind of customer coming into the site. Many of these things are at this point of sale proving to be quite helpful. And I think I've personally seen them moving the needle in different applications. I think they're worth looking into.
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David Novak
How are you personally using AI to make yourself a better leader?
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Maryam Nafisi
It's interesting you ask. I've been looking at, we've been turning on different AI note taking tools during meetings and some of them have the ability to tell you who's talking, what percentage of the time different people are talking in meetings. And there's a lot of like conversation analytics you can do to sort of say how well did that meeting go and how did I participate in that meeting? And this is making me very self conscious when I'm talking so much in this interview.
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David Novak
But well you're supposed to, you know,
- [34:05]
Maryam Nafisi
I'm supposed to hear but in a meeting as a leader I'm trying to manage down the percentage of time I'm talking in meetings. So that's one way I'm using it. I want to spend a fair amount of time listening, obviously not talking. So I like using it for that. I haven't found yet any solution that analyzes things like how are people feeling in the room based on the transcript. But I'm sure that's coming. I'm sure somebody's working on that and That'll be very interesting. Right. The other thing I think could and should be developed is like a Marion bot which if you want or like a, let's say you have a manager, it doesn't have to be me, but any manager, their direct reports could talk to the bot version of themselves and say what would so and so think about this. And you could almost test and get feedback for your manager in a non emotional setting where emotion has been removed and it's not quite as pressureful.
- [35:01]
David Novak
So you are, you know, speaking of AI, now you're the CEO of Arcade AI, tell us about this business.
- [35:09]
Maryam Nafisi
I think the future belongs to platforms that empower individuals or small businesses and individuals. And the reason increasingly so because of AI actually where AI can actually liberate and enable, can enable a company of one person. So I think one of the extreme outcomes of AI will be to allow an individual, let's say you're a TikTok influencer who's really great at marketing and you've got a specific style point of view. You could backwards integrate design products, launch products and market them and probably set up all your finance, your fulfillment, your operations using AI tools. Now so literally you could have companies of one person. So I think really the future belongs to platforms frankly like Minted, that empowers individual artists or Arcade, that empowers individual manufacturers and makers. So what Arcade does is we train models for manufacturers makers based on their data such that when you talk to them using their model, images appear that they can actually manufacture. You could say I'd like a flat weave olive green rug that's rectangular, flat, flat weave, maybe let's say throw in some lavender, olive and lavender flat weave rug. What that's going to do on Arcade is it's going to ping the models of those manufacturers that make flat weave rugs. Every image that comes out has been trained using their photos and therefore is the knot type and the texture that they can make. It's not going to come out of some generic model that produces something they can't make. For example, Moroccan manufacturers don't like to use synthetic dyes. They really only use natural dyes. Whereas my Indian manufacturers in our network are able to use synthetic dyes. So you have to use the images coming out of their respective models. And by the way, they also knot rugs completely differently even in different regions in these countries. Arcade is basically building the largest group of manufacturer models in the world and allowing you to prompt to make products using text or image on demand.
- [37:28]
David Novak
This is going to drive innovation through
- [37:30]
Maryam Nafisi
the roof, I think. So hopefully that's the future we see. It both increases business for those manufacturers because you can actually talk to them visually with images, and hopefully it allows really anybody to become a product designer. You can envision something yourself. You could be an interior designer and envision something. You could be a TikTok influencer and design something. We find that both individuals want to use this, but also businesses want to use this. So we have a B2C arm that's very obvious on our site, Arcade AI, but we also have a B2B arm that's not as visible where the manufacturers themselves are asking for their own models. So that when Crate and Barrel comes to me and asks me for a rug pitch, I'm a rug maker. I can pitch them a presentation of all of these rugs built from my model, and I can use that to actually pitch them better. That sort of thing is what we're doing for manufacturers and businesses on the other side of the marketplace.
- [38:30]
David Novak
So after 18 years of building minted, now you're back to day one building arcade. What is it in you that makes you want to start over?
- [38:41]
Maryam Nafisi
Yeah, I did that with from Eve to Minted, too, where I started Eve sold it and did Minted. Yeah. I think it's just that I like creating new products. I like creating beautiful products. I feel like with Minted, I could create beautiful stationary products and paper products. With Arcade, the world of ceramics, rugs, furniture, textile is all open. And that's really exciting. You can make. It comes back to David, me as the shopper. I can actually now make all the products that I like that my friends who are interior designers can make, who want to buy that. They can make those products. It can open up the whole world of all these makers that you normally might only be able to make with if you went on a trip, on a physical trip to see them and talk to them. So that's really a joyful act for me. And of course, I really am fascinated by this technology shift. This is probably like the third or fourth technology shift that I'm where I'm sort of guiding independent creatives through a technology shift. You know, with artists, I had to guide them through a number of shifts with Minted, you know, online invitations, wedding websites, all this digital transformation. And, you know, how are we going to do this in a way that protects artists and their intellectual property and makes a living for them? Here it's a similar problem. How is AI going to eat into my intellectual property? What's going to happen to me? How Do I navigate? In a way, above all else, I'm interested in creating an opportunity for other people to make a living. That comes back to your original question. I think of people and their work being a really important part of their identity and their dignity. And if I can help other people make a living in a way that gets at their passion and preserves their dignity, I feel like that is a service to the world. I do really enjoy that. So I think AI could really amplify human creativity and business, not replace it. I see a lot of opportunity for independence. Actually. I think AI most works for independence. It most works for small companies and independents. And I think it could be dramatically helpful for independent artists, actually independent makers, manufacturers and entrepreneurs. I think it's going to enable all these independents. And really that's why I think that's really the future is companies like ours and platforms that really empower these independents.
- [41:18]
David Novak
And this has been a lot of fun and I want to have some
- [41:20]
more now with my lightning round of questions. So are you ready for this?
- [41:23]
Maryam Nafisi
Yeah, sure. Yeah.
- [41:24]
David Novak
Three words that best describe you.
- [41:26]
Maryam Nafisi
Persistent, passionate, analytical.
- [41:28]
David Novak
If you could be one person for a day besides yourself, who would it be?
- [41:32]
Maryam Nafisi
I'd be Beethoven.
- [41:34]
David Novak
Who would play you in a movie?
- [41:35]
Maryam Nafisi
I hope Maggie Q would play me in a movie.
- [41:40]
David Novak
The city from your childhood you'd most want to go back to.
- [41:44]
Maryam Nafisi
The inaccessible one. Tehran.
- [41:46]
David Novak
The minted product in your own home you love the most.
- [41:49]
Maryam Nafisi
I've got a big art print by Purima Studio from Minted.
- [41:54]
David Novak
What's something you've been curious about lately that has absolutely nothing to do with work?
- [41:59]
Maryam Nafisi
Telling stories via filmmaking.
- [42:01]
David Novak
What's the one thing you do just for you?
- [42:04]
Maryam Nafisi
Probably shopping. Strolling through a mall or. Shopping? Yeah.
- [42:09]
David Novak
Besides your family and friends, what's your most prized possession?
- [42:13]
Maryam Nafisi
I have this ancient glass bowl from Iran from 600 AD and it's still completely intact. And I touch it and it has ridges like somebody hand formed this. And it just is incredible that I could touch all the ridges that somebody formed by hand that long ago.
- [42:31]
David Novak
If I turned the radio on in your car, what would I hear?
- [42:35]
Maryam Nafisi
A weird and eclectic mix of many decades, including the 70s, the 80s, now just rap, everything. I mean, it'd be like a very, very, very eclectic mix.
- [42:48]
David Novak
What's something about you? Few people would know.
- [42:51]
Maryam Nafisi
I was the sports editor of my college newspaper.
- [42:55]
David Novak
What's one of your daily rituals? Something that you never miss.
- [42:59]
Maryam Nafisi
10 minutes of yoga in the morning.
- [43:01]
David Novak
All right, that's great. We're out of the lightning round. Just a few More questions? We'll wrap this up. You and your husband, Michael, you have two kids. How do you think about leadership at home?
- [43:11]
Maryam Nafisi
The number one thing that comes to mind is that as a parent, I want to role model happiness that I can be happy. I want a role model that you can be happy to my kids.
- [43:24]
David Novak
What do you see as your unfinished business?
- [43:26]
Maryam Nafisi
I think I see two things. Telling stories about a past that maybe some people haven't been able to see, and being experience and the unfinished. The other part is drawing a line more directly to empowering people with an income platform.
- [43:44]
David Novak
Okay, last question. What's one piece of advice you'd give to anyone who wants to be a better leader?
- [43:49]
Maryam Nafisi
I would say, persistently, try to find what's in your blind spot and find people who will tell you what is in your blind spot, who will be honest with you.
- [44:00]
David Novak
What would be your blind spot?
- [44:02]
Maryam Nafisi
I think my persistent blind spot is I'm so focused on. I'm more of a T than an F on the Myers Briggs scale. So I have an intuition when things are some intuition around how people are feeling, but it's not my absolute number one strength. I have to actually stop and really pay attention and think about it. It's more of a decision I have to make. That's very much. It's not an intuition. So when I'm running around getting things done, I have to stop and go, okay, don't forget, stop in the coffee room and say hi. Because otherwise, I'm sort of blasting off to my next task. I'm very much like, what's on my checklist today? What am I doing today? I feel that my ideal, that around the table. I need empaths around my leadership team who compliment me because obviously none of us can be everything to everyone. Right? We all have our different strengths and weaknesses.
- [45:04]
David Novak
I think I've always felt that every job should have human dignity. You know, I mean, every person needs respect. You know, everybody is put here to, you know, be treated, you know, everybody should be treated with respect. Have human dignity. And, you know, if you can help unlock the potential of the individual, which is what you're doing, that's a. You're making a dent in the universe, you know?
- [45:25]
Maryam Nafisi
That's right.
- [45:26]
David Novak
You really are. You should feel really good about that.
- [45:28]
Maryam Nafisi
Thank you. Thank you. David.
- [45:35]
Podcast Host
David. I don't know if men have as much experience with minted as women do, but I feel like I see minted cards all over my house all the time because of all of the babies that people are having and Weddings that people are having and holiday cards that I get. I mean, I feel like I am a minted household, especially around the holiday season.
- [45:55]
David Novak
Well, I imagine you are. And I think you're probably correct in saying that not many men are okay. And that's probably a fault.
- [46:05]
Men, we should be looking for ways
- [46:07]
to really let people know what we think and finding really cool cards to do so. But yeah, you're probably right. And I'm glad you're a minted household, you know.
- [46:16]
Podcast Host
And Miriam shared that she was drawn to the idea of fermented because on every product, on every card, on the back of it, you can see that it's printed by minted. So it's, it has this almost viral component within the product itself. And I mean, when she was talking about that, I was just like, well, yeah, and every time I have to create an invitation for something or send out a save the date for one of my friends wedding parties, I immediately and only think of minted.
- [46:44]
David Novak
Well, that's, isn't that interesting how, you know, just a little phrase printed by minted, you know, just, you know, you remember and it takes you to your core. And, and you know, one of the things I love is how she, she crowdsources her ideas. You know, she gets, she gets the, you know, artists to submit their ideas and you know, she picks the best ones and, and that allows her to, to really get great content very efficiently. And the artist wins and she wins. So she's able to find a win win in her business model, which is great.
- [47:18]
Podcast Host
You know, David, in addition to that creative take on how to source product, she also has a really interesting way of setting people up for success in her business. She talked about, you know, when someone's underperforming in their role. She asks herself, why did I originally hire this person? What did I originally like about this person? And then based on that, she tries to move that person into a better role as opposed to just firing them because it's not working out. And I really like that approach. But from your perspective, David, how do you know when someone has potential in a different area versus just not being a fit at all?
- [47:53]
David Novak
That's something you really gotta work through as you watch someone in action and what really turns them on and where they add value in initiatives that can kind of tell you that maybe, hey, this person shouldn't be in finance, maybe they should be in marketing, or maybe this person shouldn't be in marketing, they should be in more of an analytical type job. But I think you gotta watch People in action. But I think that the insight that I love the most from this podcast was this insight that you just mentioned, is that before you fire somebody, think about why'd you hire them in the first place. I never really thought about it that way, but I think that's the first thing you should do is, is go back and say, hey, what was it about this person that I really thought they had but they don't have? Or what is it about this person that they have that got me excited about them? And I don't know if that's going to take you to a different position for them or not, but I just like that thought process.
- [48:56]
Podcast Host
It humanizes the whole thing. I feel like when leaders make decisions on whether or not to fire somebody, it's very performance based and results of course matter. But I like that it reminds you of, you know, the essence of their humanity and why you liked them in the first place.
- [49:12]
David Novak
What I think you need to do and is you always have to, you know, coach first, then fire. Okay, but if you're in your coaching, I think going back to the beginning, you know, what was it about you that got you excited about them? You know, I think that's an important thing to bring up. In fact, I think if I was coaching somebody and they were struggling, I'd say, you know, when I hired you, you know, one of the things that really got me excited about was your ability to do this, this or this, you know, and it just doesn't seem to be happening here. What do you think is the issue? And hey, maybe it's something inside your company that's creating that, or maybe the person doesn't feel free enough to do that, but it's just such a great way to start a positive coaching session. And then I think you got to coach people on what they need to do to be successful and give them a chance. And if they aren't successful after the coaching, then it's time to fire. But I just think a coach first mentality really works. And going back to the beginning of why you hired that person really makes
- [50:17]
a lot of sense.
- [50:18]
And that's the insight that I really actually like the most from this conversation.
- [50:23]
Podcast Host
David, the next real concept that came through in this episode is Miriam's passion for what she does. You two talk about when she left her investment banking job and co founded Eve, which is one of the first E commerce beauty companies that existed. And you said, you know, what made you make the job? And she just came out and said, I love to shop. And she does love to shop, and it's what's guided many of her ideas and businesses in her career. And I think, I think this passion that she has really helps her create great experiences for her customers and for her people. And I want to know from your perspective, I mean, do leaders really need to love the world that they work in? Do they need to be personally passionate about their business and their product? Or can it. Or is it something that you can do without that passion?
- [51:11]
David Novak
Yeah, well, I think you better fall in love with it sooner or later.
- [51:14]
Okay?
- [51:15]
That's my opinion. You know, I remember having a podcast with Tom Nolan, who was the CEO of Kendra Scott, and he obviously was not into ladies jewelry, but over time, I think he really became passionate about that business, you know, but I think you got a big head start if you're working on something you love, you know, and, you know, I, I think I'd have a hard time, you know, working on things that I didn't have a clear cut passion for. And, and I found my performance to be even better when I was working on something that I love more than something else. You know, for example, I came up in the packaged goods business of Frito Lay and, and, and Pepsi. And, you know, I learned a lot of skills and it really helped me. And. But the packaged goods business was slower moving than the restaurant business. So when I got in the restaurant business, it was very retail focused. And, you know, I could see the results almost immediately in terms of what we did. I love people, I love food, I love marketing, and I loved it a lot more than I love packaged goods. And I remember when I had a chance to go back to Frito Lay when I was in the restaurant business, and I said no because I loved what I was doing. And that was the best decision I ever made because it put me in position ultimately to end up running young brands. But it was the passion that kept me there. And so, yeah, I think you can probably run any business to a certain extent without having passion for it, but I don't think you can run it as well.
- [52:47]
Podcast Host
It's so funny you bring up that episode we did with Tom Nolan, because I just saw recently that he is now the CEO of a giant tire manufacturer. Like Tires for Cars. I'm like going from Kendra Scott and jewelry and retail to tires. It's so interesting to me. But it brings to mind the fact that if you have real transferable skills, you're focused on the customer and you know, how to create a great culture where everybody counts. You really can make a big impact and drive results regardless of industry.
- [53:17]
David Novak
Yeah, well, we'll find out how much she loves the tire business.
- [53:23]
Podcast Host
David. Another theme that came through in this conversation with Miriam was this idea of an entrepreneurial mindset. And she talks about when she started Minted, she was actively looking for a business idea, but not just any idea. There were certain criteria that she needed this business idea to have. And it's very clear that she takes this entrepreneurial mindset to everything she does and every division of her business. And I'm curious, you know, in your experience working with entrepreneurs and your experience developing great CEOs and leaders, what do you find in the best entrepreneurs? How do they think?
- [53:59]
David Novak
The first thing I would say is learn from the best entrepreneurs. And if you really want a great answer to that question, go back and listen to the podcast I did with Jeff Yang. He's a serial entrepreneur, and he creates a lot of businesses and supports a lot of businesses with other entrepreneurs, but he really drives home some of the key traits that the entrepreneurs have. And I think first and foremost is, you know, there's just an incredible passion
- [54:28]
for what they do.
- [54:29]
Okay? There's a huge desire to, you know, to basically solve problems that exist, and you're passionate about solving that problem. And there's just an incredible learning mindset. You know, you start out as an entrepreneur where you have to almost do everything, so you got to learn every aspect of the business if you're going to be successful. And then you, you realize that you can't do it all by yourself. And you got to have people around you to, to get done what needs to get done. And these people learn how to, to grow as the business grows. And, and, and, and that mindset, I think, is, is really important. But go back and listen to, to Jeff, Jeff. Jeff will talk about it, you know, much better, much better than me. And one story I remember from him that was really great. It's about hiring people. He said, you know, you have A's, B's, and C's in your, your, your company. A's are like, everybody wants to have the A's. I mean, you know, they're the superstars. And then you got to have Bs, okay? Bs, you know, get things done. They're not A's, but you really need them. And not everybody can be an A. But he said C's, you gotta get rid of the C's, because the C's are like cockroaches. They get in your cupboard and they, you can't get em out.
- [55:47]
Okay.
- [55:48]
Podcast Host
They just keep coming back, and they
- [55:49]
David Novak
just keep coming back again and again and again. And you know, I love that. But the real point that he's talking about there is just, you know, you know, as an entrepreneur, you gotta. Talent is key, and you gotta make sure that you hire people that can take your business to the next level.
- [56:04]
Podcast Host
Well, David, there's some real gold in this episode. And I think that anyone listening, even if you just take one of these ideas and apply them to your leadership or to your life, it's going to. It's going to make you a better leader.
- [56:13]
David Novak
Yeah. And I think that's what makes podcasts what they are. I mean, if you can get some. A leader on and listen to them and see how they attack their business, you're going to find something you can take with you. And, you know, for me, the biggest thing I'm going to take from this is that if you're about ready to fire somebody, think about why you hired in the first place. Okay. And maybe that'll take you down a different path. The other thing is, is that there's nothing like passion to really get the best out of you when you, you're really growing a business. So if you, if you're blessed enough to be able to work in a business that you're passionate about and you get up every day and you love it, like Warren Buffett would say, you know, I tap my, you know, I tap dance on the, on the way to work. I mean, man, that gives you a leg up. And then, you know, I think all of us need to have an entrepreneurial mindset, you know, as leaders, you know, solving problems, constantly learning, growing with the business as it grows, you know, having a relentless passion for putting the right talent around you to be successful as the business grows. I think those are, those are things that we can, we can all do and be successful if we do it well.
- [57:21]
Podcast Host
Thank you again to Miriam for coming on the show, and thank you, David, for this wonderful deep brief. And thank you to our listeners for tuning in to another episode of How Leaders Lead. We'll see you next Thursday.