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How Leaders Lead with David Novak
#291: Mark Smucker, Chair and CEO, The J.M. Smucker Company – Understand the soul of your brand
00:55:50
Listen to this leadership podcast with Mark Smucker, Chair and CEO of The J.M. Smucker Company, and see why you’ve got to understand the soul of your brand.
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- [00:00]
Podcast Host
Hello, friends, and welcome to another episode of How Leaders Lead with David Novak. Today, David sits down with Mark Smucker, who's the CEO and chair of the J.M. smucker Company, which is home to some of the most iconic brands like Smucker's, Folgers, Uncrustables, Hostess and Milkboom. In this episode, you'll learn how to build a brand that's relevant, authentic, and successful. You'll learn how to get to the soul of your brand and communicate that soul in a way that drives customer acquisition and, and growth. Enjoy this conversation with David and Mark, and I will see you at the debrief.
- [00:38]
David Novak
I hear you're quite the cook and you love to cook. It's a hobby of yours. And if I were to come over to your house for dinner, what would be on your menu?
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Mark Smucker
Well, let me tell you, first and foremost, I gotta say, my wife is a better cook than I am.
- [00:52]
David Novak
Good point.
- [00:54]
Mark Smucker
And I cook because she helped me learn to cook when we were first, first together, we honeymooned in Thailand. I've been to Thailand a couple times. We did some cooking classes there. So I really like to go and get all the ingredients at the local Asian markets and cook Thai food. And then I, you know, grill and do, you know, smoke, you know, briskets and, and do stuff that the guys do on the, on the, on the outside grill. Right, right.
- [01:18]
David Novak
Absolutely. You know, that's what I do. I specialize in the grill. I'm the grill master at my house, you know. So now, now as I understand it, you started your career as an 8th grade science teacher. You know, what's the story of you in the classroom that would give us a picture of your leadership style?
- [01:37]
Mark Smucker
I really liked science. Right. And growing up, my parents encouraged us to study something that we liked. I really liked science. I was majored in geology in college and I wanted to use my degree. So I ended up teaching or 8th grade science in the deep south in Montgomery, Alabama. And I really felt like I was fun. I wore a bow tie sometimes and I think some of the parents thought I was a student cause I looked so young. But I like to have fun with the kids. And occasionally I would probably jump up on the desks and do crazy things. But I really enjoyed teaching them. It wasn't about rocks and fossils. It was about how to analyze visually look at something and determine what, what had happened throughout history. And so I really enjoyed trying to get them to learn how to think analytically. And that, that was fun for me. It was a Great experience.
- [02:35]
David Novak
Now, when you think about business and your passion for history and understanding why things are the way they are, how has that transferred into how you, how you tackle problems or try to grow the business?
- [02:49]
Mark Smucker
You know, when you go through some of these leadership development things throughout your career, you learn what type of person you are. I happen to be somebody who sort of balanced left and right brain. I sort of have a creative side, which I think is why I enjoy marketing so much. But also that analytical side helps me solve problems. So I think I sort of think of myself maybe as a marketer first and foremost, but, but I like to solve problems and I think having that analytical side is helpful in business as well.
- [03:21]
David Novak
Now you're the sixth CEO in 128 year plus history of J.M. smucker Co. And your great great grandfather started the business. When you walk into the office each day, what emotion do you feel the most? Walking into a family business that's been around for, for as long as your company.
- [03:42]
Mark Smucker
First of all, pride. There's no question, right? And the brands that we have are, are amazing. And frankly, my predecessors helped to grow the business to where it is today through a lot of acquisitions. I've contributed to that as well and I've been around for that. What gets me going and why I love the business is two things. It's the brands and it's the people. And I'm passionate about brands, how to build brands, and I'm passionate about people and trying to nurture and sustain and improve our culture, which is, I think a competitive advantage.
- [04:19]
David Novak
You know, I'm kind of surprised, you know, to learn your history, that you're a science teacher and yet you love the marketing side of the business. So obviously you got that analytical side. And you mentioned you had the right brain skills too. When did you get the sense that hey, this passion for the brands is really something that you loved and getting, digging into the marketing.
- [04:40]
Mark Smucker
For a long time, I actually, I went to college out of state. I was a teacher, I did my business degree and then I left the country and so I wanted to live abroad. So I was an expat. My first job leaving the country was I worked at Leo Burnett in Argentina, the advertising agency. And I loved advertising and brands. And so I'd started there. I enjoyed living abroad because I wanted to learn a language, which I did. And I liked the anonymity. Nobody could pronounce my name, my last name. And I really liked the fact that I was in a place where I could just be myself and my Name meant nothing. And so I could just be a regular guy. And I think I gravitate to that sense of authenticity, and I think I believe that that makes me a good leader. But the brand passion started there, and then I later joined the company and grew up in various roles. And ultimately my experience running the Canadian division was where I got really locked in and passionate about the whole business and the brands we own.
- [05:51]
David Novak
What's something about leading a family named company that people outside the business completely misunderstand?
- [05:59]
Mark Smucker
Well, I think, first of all, we're a public company. Right. And we've been public since 1959. So it's really important for us to do right by our shareholders, as you know. But it really starts with the consumer, and we have to serve the needs of the consumer. I do think being a family member helps build the culture because it provides a sense of security for employees, knowing that there is this long legacy and this long history. But at the end of the day, just like any CEO, I have to perform and I have to make sure that I'm delivering results and that we're growing the business.
- [06:40]
David Novak
Yeah.
- [06:41]
Guest or Interviewer
I'm curious, Mark, is there anything about having the family name on the building that makes the job actually harder?
- [06:49]
Mark Smucker
Yes, we have. There's a lot of family members. Family members have a lot of opinions. So you're, you know, they care. Right. And that's the good thing. Like family members care how the business is doing. So I have that extra constituent. I got to answer a lot of questions sometimes.
- [07:07]
David Novak
So Christmas is pretty interesting at the Smucker house, I bet.
- [07:12]
Guest or Interviewer
You know, speaking of the family name, I've got a story for you. And this is a story about your theme line, which is with a name like Smuckers, it's got to be good. And I heard this story. It was told by Mark Wise, who is the CEO of the, the, the Lois Wise Advertising Agency. His wife was Lois Wise and he, she was a hall of fame copywriter and one he told. He tells the story. One day she sits down at the, at the typewriter and types out this line. With a name like Smucker's, it's got to be good. And she says, I've just written the greatest theme line you're ever going to see. Now it's your job to go sell it. Because he was the account guy. And so he says, he goes into the Smucker building, he's in the conference room, and, you know, Mr. Smucker was very, very revered. He was, you know, obviously the titular head of the Company and he presents this line with the name like Smucker. It's got to be good. Well, everybody on the team just was up in roars. They could not believe that they would have the audacity to bring this line in. And Mark Weiss said to Mr. Smucker, he said, Mr. Smucker, he said, you know, when you were a kid, did kids make fun of you because of your name? He says, oh, Mark, I got quite a few fights over that one.
- [08:26]
David Novak
Yeah, I did.
- [08:27]
Guest or Interviewer
He says, well, guess what? If you have a little fun with
- [08:30]
David Novak
your name, people will like you for it. Now, you know, as I understand it, Smucker's established Ohio company and he looked at Mark and he says, all right, you could test the theme line, but you can't run that ad in Ohio. So as it turns out, Mr. Smucker, as Mark tells the story, gets on a plane, he's heading out to Las Vegas. He's got a luggage tag or something there that says Smucker on it. And this beautiful stewardess looks over at him and says, hey, with a name like Smucker's, you've got to be good. Well, he gets off the plane, calls Mark Wise, and says, you know, Mark, that theme line really stands out. People remember it. You've got to run that theme line in Ohio. Now, that's the story I heard and I thought it was a great story because it's a great example of how consumers will really like you if you don't take yourself too seriously. And having a little fun with your name clearly has worked. And I think that theme line still exists today.
- [09:30]
Mark Smucker
Yeah, it does. With a name like Smucker's, it has to be good. It's still the tagline for Smucker's jams and jellies and that. You're right. That idea of being a bit self deprecating provides us as leaders with a sense of vulnerability and allows our people to connect to us. And honestly, Paul, that was my grandfather who that story was about, was. We all grew up with that last name, right? And it does rhyme with things that are very unpleasant, right? Some four letter words. So, you know, we've heard all the jokes, right? There's nothing new that you can bring that I. That we probably haven't heard. But it is. It is a. It is. You can't take yourselves too seriously. And Paul, my grandfather used to say, we're just making jelly. It's not rocket science. It brings joy to consumers. And that's what the brand really stands for.
- [10:24]
David Novak
And it Is, you know, Lois Wise gets in the advertising hall of fame. And that was her claim to fame, the fact that she wrote that line and it. And it has endured like great brands do. And it's timeless because it taps into that self deprecating humor that people will always appreciate, you know. You know, like, like most brands, you look out for partnerships to keep your brands relevant. And I'd love for you to tell us how you linked up with Ludacris for Jif.
- [10:55]
Mark Smucker
Actually, the story you just told is a very good segue because not all slogans are eternal. And the Folgers jingle seems to be one of those. That may be eternal, but Jif was not. And you might recall, choosy moms choose Jif.
- [11:13]
David Novak
Great. I thought that was great at the time.
- [11:15]
Mark Smucker
It was a great slogan. It was developed by P and G. We acquired the brand, we inherited that slogan and we used it for many years, probably over a decade. And what we learned in doing consumer research was that slogan in some cases alienated consumers because there were single dads, there were different. You know, the modern family is not always a husband and a wife and the kids. And some people didn't like that slogan. So we tossed it. We got rid of it. We did a lot of research. And what we decided when we really started to increase our brand building skills and our marketing prowess was to. We made a strategic decision that brands that are successful have to be inserted in modern culture in some way. They have to be relevant in modern culture. And we first we came up with an edgier slogan, which is that gifing good, right? And so in terms of ludicrous, we had an opportunity to work with him. He happened to be a huge Jiff fan. We did a spoof on his old traditional 90s and 2000s style of rap, which is awesome. It's clear you can understand the lyrics. And then in today's, there's a lot of this type of rap called mumble rap. So we got one of the Mumble rap guys to participate and he did it, basically did a spoof on himself. And so by. And it was right around the time when he was doing the Fast and Furious movies. And so it just hit
- [13:02]
David Novak
bro one more time.
- [13:14]
Mark Smucker
The slogan was a little bit edgy. He was making a comeback. There was another modern rapper in there and they just had fun with it and it worked and it really drove sales.
- [13:26]
David Novak
What was the internal reaction when his name was presented as a potential partner?
- [13:33]
Mark Smucker
Oh, people were thrilled because employees really realized that we were in the process of really modernizing these brands. And it's a mature category. Right. It doesn't. Peanut butter is everywhere. It's not growing super fast, but it's a number one brand. And in order to sustain our market share and to really grow the brand, in addition to innovation, we had to have a more relevant type of advertising that really was relevant in today's culture.
- [14:07]
David Novak
You know, speaking of today's culture, your brands, I don't know of a company that has more iconic American brands, consumer packaged goods brands than you guys really do have. They just kind of rip off your tongue when you think of the brands that you have. Mark, which one tells us the most about where American culture is headed today?
- [14:28]
Mark Smucker
I mean, we could talk a little bit about Folgers. Folgers is, again, mature category. It's the number one brand. It's a classic brand. There's been spoofs on Saturday Night Live, maybe not so favorable about former Folgers advertising. And we realized that we had to modernize Folgers. So a couple years ago, we did a campaign that involved Trombone Shorty, a very famous New Orleans trombonist, in a second line in a Mardi Gras style parade. There was advertising that involved Joan Jett, you know, and some of her music. And so for a moment, we took pause on the best part of Waking up jingle and brought Folgers back into the mainstream, doing homage to New Orleans, which is where all the products are made and roasted. And then just in the last few weeks, we launched a new campaign, bringing back the jingle, but actually using all types of pop and popular songs from the last decade or so that actually talk about Waking up. And so that campaign is now, and it's actually done exceptionally well for the brand because the brand continues to hold the number one position, continues to grow. We've grown sales all throughout these last couple years, and those modernizing campaigns have really supported making sure that this brand remains relevant in today's culture.
- [16:01]
David Novak
Yeah. And I guess when you think about it, the American culture is one that embraces the great things of our past, but loves to move forward and keep that fresh edge. So you're doing a great job of figuring out how to do that. You know, I'd like to get more into how you lead, but I want to take you back. What's a story from your childhood that shaped the kind of leader that you are today?
- [16:26]
Mark Smucker
Well, I knew you were going to ask me that, because I've listened to your podcast and it seems like you asked that question to everybody.
- [16:32]
David Novak
It's One of my favorites, by the way.
- [16:35]
Mark Smucker
I sort of talked about it a little in that the fact that my family encouraged us to study and pursue things that we, we like. So science being one. I enjoy music, I enjoy travel. And actually I think having permission to go and explore a variety of different things encouraged my curiosity. Living abroad, I lived in Argentina, I lived in Brazil. My wife also was an expat and we eventually ended up in Canada. And I think that exploration of, of new topics, new cultures, meeting new people is really important for leadership because we have to continue to look outside these four walls to make sure that we understand what's going on within the world around us with the consumer, and that curiosity helps drive growth. And so I always encourage our people to really think about what's happening outside in our industry so that we can compete better and that we can continue to win with our brands. I think curiosity is critical.
- [17:43]
David Novak
And when you moved into the business, you worked in just about every corner of the business, from janitorial work to international roles. I mean, you did every gamut of the business. Which role changed how you think about leadership more than any other that you did?
- [18:00]
Mark Smucker
My experience in Canada. Easy, easy answer. We, my wife and I moved. We, we had two young kids, we lived in Toronto. One of the big acquisitions that we did, we had acquired international multifoods, which in the US was primarily Pillsbury Baking Mixes. And in Canada was this a large business that was flour baked and other baking products, pickles and so forth. Interestingly, the business that we inherited in Canada was four times the, the size of our jam and jelly business in Canada. So we were like the minnow swallowing the whale and they threw me up in there. So you're going to run the business. Figure it out. And so building a culture from, not from scratch, but integrating two cultures. I had to make very difficult decisions around which businesses we were going to keep or which we would sell, how we were going to turn around a very unprofitable flower business, how we were going to combine these two groups of people and develop a culture. That experience, as challenging as it was, became exceptionally fun and taught me a lot about how to lead, about how to communicate with people, how to show up authentically to be vulnerable. I was in my early to mid-30s and the business was roughly $400 million. So it wasn't a small business. And all of those experiences, whether it's how to bring compassion to difficult decisions when you might be eliminating part of the business and really show up in even the most difficult moments with Authenticity and compassion really helps to bridge the gap in those in those relationships. So it was building a culture and really trying to turn around brands that needed help.
- [20:03]
David Novak
Share a story from that time where you had a really difficult challenge and you had to show up with authenticity.
- [20:10]
Mark Smucker
I would say one is we decided to outsource our sales team and we decided that that going to a broker model was a better option for us. And so delivering that message to about 50 people was really difficult in that moment. Sharing with those people that we understood what they were going through, that we were here to support their transition. We essentially set up, made sure that every single individual not only got their severance package, but that they also. We were setting up interviews for every one of them with our broker partner. And so right out of the gate, every individual had an opportunity to move over to the broker partner. And many of them did. And I heard more thank yous than complaints from that team because we helped them, we showed compassion and we demonstrated that we were there to help even though we were making a tough business decision for the benefit of the business, that we were truly there to support them through that transition as well.
- [21:20]
David Novak
And you said you were the minnow that sort of swallowed the whale there, which is a great analogy. When you're the minnow and they're the big cheese, basically, how did you get credibility as a leader?
- [21:34]
Mark Smucker
Again, I think it's being authentic. It's having individual conversations with people. It's taking the time to step into their office and ask them how they're doing. Just the act of asking someone, how are you? How is your family? It shows true care. The other thing that we always do is we want to make sure that our employees understand that we know that they have a family behind them that supports them. Because this company was built not by individual employees. It was actually. And not by one family, not by the Smucker family. It was built by thousands of families over the years who put blood, sweat and tears into this place to provide a livelihood for their own family. So it's not just the people in these four walls. It's the spouses and the children that actually support the people that work here.
- [22:32]
David Novak
Now, you also mentioned in that particular situation, you had to bring two cultures together. You know, what was the big insight there that you picked up?
- [22:41]
Mark Smucker
One is over communicate. You can't say something once. You have to repeat yourself over and over again and talk about what are our core values. And our core values are be bold, be, be kind, do the right thing, play to win, and thrive. Together. And those have evolved over time. But if we walk the talk and we embody and act and act truly and genuinely with those values, it resonates with people. And one of the things that we do often with meetings is we start meetings by asking individuals, hey, in the last couple weeks, can you give an example of someone on your team or a team or an action that actually demonstrates one of our basic beliefs? And by celebrating those small actions, it actually begins to ingrain those behaviors and those values into the culture. And so communicating those values consistently, repeatedly helps. And then finding the right leaders who exemplify those values to lead teams ultimately builds camaraderie. And it's that spirit of being very open and communicative that truly helps.
- [24:09]
Podcast Host
Hello, friends. I hope you're loving this conversation. Be sure to stay tuned to the very end of the episode. As always, David and I are going to deep debrief some of the concepts that he talks about with this week's guest. So stay tuned to the very end, and I will see you soon.
- [24:23]
David Novak
You know, culture is critical for every great company, and every great CEO knows it and makes it a high priority. When you look at the values that you just laid out, you know, that your company has today, is there one in particular you're really pushing forward that needs to be done more at your company? And if so, how do you do it?
- [24:43]
Mark Smucker
It's funny, a couple hours ago, we had a town hall meeting, all employees, and we talked about, you know, we're a Midwest company. Be kind, thrive together come really easily for Midwesterners because it's easy for us to be nice to each other, to live the golden rule, if you will. It's pretty basic stuff. Thrive together is about how we support our communities and each other. And one of the things that we're be bold is an aspirational one. And trying to encourage people to be comfortable in discomfort, to be open, to constructively challenge each other. When they say, you know what, I think I might have a better idea to how we can accomplish this goal and to be comfortable challenging me, their boss, whatever it may be, and trying to model those behaviors so that that spirit of being constructively challenging ultimately gets us to a better place. It improves agility, it improves ideas. It gets us more thoughtful and bold innovation. And so those basic beliefs, those core values, we refer to them as basic beliefs, are really important to grow within our culture so that we can continue to win and be competitive.
- [26:04]
David Novak
So let's say I'm in a meeting and I come up with a really Bold idea. And you love it. Okay, what do you do?
- [26:11]
Mark Smucker
We celebrate it. Right? We'd say that's a great idea. Let's talk about that some more because, you know, I think sometimes one of the. Another term we always use is let's make sure we get all the brutal facts on the table. And the brutal facts are often things that aren't working. And so if we can identify the things that aren't working and why they're not working, then we can try to be bolder to try to fix them and improve a process. And a lot of times it's just the way we're working or they're not communicating. And so to the extent that we can actually drive those behaviors, it will improve our competitivity and ultimately it improves the culture.
- [26:55]
David Novak
Yeah. One of the things that's been proven over and over again, whatever you recognize, people will do more of. And I bet you have a lot of examples of that. You know, you talked a little bit about getting the brutal facts on the table. And a lot of times business doesn't go the way how we want it to go. You know, can you recall a leadership mistake or misstep that you made earlier on in your career that forced you to grow faster than you even wanted to at the time, but really prepared you for the role that you're in right now?
- [27:27]
Mark Smucker
You know, I think we've had marketing campaigns where that didn't work. When we first switched from choosy moms to that jiffing good, we did some very cinematic advertising that was good, but it didn't totally hit the mark with consumers. We had some very quirky advertising back in the 90s that was maybe a little too tongue in cheek and didn't hit the mark. And I think we learned from those mistakes and those inform us about, well, why didn't we hit the mark? And what was the insight that we missed? And we definitely learned from those.
- [28:06]
David Novak
Let's talk about uncrustables for a second. I mean, what a brand that is. You know, it's basically a peanut butter and jelly sandwich with the crust cut off, and yet it's on its way to becoming a billion dollar brand. You know, what's the. What's the leadership insight behind that great innovation? I mean, and this is one where I see people snacking on a lot.
- [28:30]
Mark Smucker
That one. We didn't have to do any advertising for about the first 20 years because it took us about a decade to figure out how to produce them at scale. And we couldn't make enough of them. But what's been great about that brand, even though even before we turned on advertising and demand generation, it was already in culture. Athletes, celebrities, you know, posting about them in their, in their social media. Both of the Kelsey brothers organically started talking about how much they love Uncrustables on, on their podcast. And that turned into something that we could actually partner with them.
- [29:10]
Debrief Host
You ever seen anybody uncrust the Uncrustables? It's not possible. There's no crust on the Uncrustable.
- [29:15]
Mark Smucker
The part where it's like kind of pinched together on the outside, they'll actually peel that off.
- [29:20]
Debrief Host
Yeah. Oh, these people are psychotic.
- [29:23]
Mark Smucker
Sabrina Carpenter actually posted on her Instagram while she was singing one of her new songs had a grape uncrustable. And so that has been very organic. And we've been able to latch on to some of those organic opportunities and continue that momentum. That product and that brand exists in almost every locker room of professional sports teams, regardless of the sport. So it's basketball, football, baseball, all those athletes are eating those and they talk about them. So that brand is going to be a billion dollars this year. We're about to finish our fiscal. It's going to be a billion dollar brand.
- [30:02]
David Novak
But it took you 10 years to figure out how to scale it?
- [30:05]
Mark Smucker
It took us 10 years to figure out how to scale it. It took us a long time to figure out how to make that perfect pillowy soft bread with no bubbles in it, which would lead to leaky sandwiches. And it took us a long time to do that. And so we figured that out. And we actually have three plants now that make those sandwiches and freeze them immediately after being assembled.
- [30:27]
David Novak
Well, all my golfing buddies at the halfway house, they really thank you for that same, you know. Now you've said one of your priorities is modernizing brands without losing their soul. I love that. Without losing their soul. How do you define what the soul of a brand is? You know, do you spend time articulating that or is you the head of the company or you just know it in your gut?
- [30:52]
Mark Smucker
I think it depends on the brand. And I'll give you an example. Cafe Bustelo is our fastest growing coffee brand. It's going to be a half a billion dollars this year in sales. And it has a true Latino heritage. It was born in New York in the Puerto Rican and Hispanic community. It grew up in Miami within the Cuban community, and it has been embraced by many Latino communities. And as we, we acquired that brand and since then we've really focused on that brand and the soul of that brand is that. Is that Latin culture. It is chats over sweet espresso drinks. It is a truly bilingual brand. So all of the marketing communications go out in both English and Spanish. And that authenticity, that authentic Latin roots and its commitment to the arts, we've done a lot of work with supporting Latin artists, whether that's music or visual artists. We have done things specifically in the home markets of New York and Miami that support the brand and that authentic heritage. That authentic Latin heritage has actually supported the growth across the country and largely with non Hispanic millennials and Gen Z's who are the ones who are truly embracing that brand. And it's that authentic Latin soul that people gravitate to.
- [32:32]
David Novak
So that one seems like that would be an easier one to really get at the soul of what it is because it just flows out of the origin. But take Folgers. What's the soul of Folgers?
- [32:47]
Mark Smucker
The soul of Folgers was always that originally was all that waking up that morning, the aroma of coffee.
- [32:56]
Podcast Host
Best part of waking up.
- [32:59]
Mark Smucker
Chris Folgers in your cup. Our new marketing campaign specifically hits on that. I referenced it earlier in terms of using all of these popular songs that are referencing Waking up. And it eventually ties back to the slogan of the best part of waking up is Folgers in your cup. And so the soul of Folgers is the morning ritual, right? And it's not necessarily the old images we have of advertising from the 80s now. It's we all have different morning routines. We have sometimes some of us are racing out the door, some of us are going to walk the dog, some of us are taking the kids to school. Whatever it may be, trying to participate with the brand in those different moments is what makes it still relevant.
- [33:51]
David Novak
Because you understand the brand so well, you can stay consistent. You can be true to who you really, really are. Do you have any brands where you haven't been able to really define the soul? And by not defining what the soul, you haven't had the success you'd like it to have?
- [34:07]
Mark Smucker
Well, we talked a little bit about Jif and how that changed, right, from choosy moms to that jiffing. Good. I think that was a good example where. Where peanut butter is so ingrained in our culture as Americans. But we had to shift the tone of that advertising. I think if you look at our pet brands, those have also shifted a little bit. If you think about Milk Bone, right. Milk Bone is all about treating your dog. And as pet parents, we tend Our pets are part of the family. And so the milk bone has shifted to an idea of more dog. In other words, we need more dogs in our lives because they're loyal, they love us unconditionally, and they always want to be around us. And so why wouldn't we want more dog? And so the soul of that brand has become this notion of we need more dogs in our lives because they make us happy, they support our psyche.
- [35:12]
David Novak
I love how you think about brands. And I'm thinking of, you know, Smucker and what you do in with your company and your brands. And I'm thinking of like General Mills. Okay. Or Procter and Gamble, big packaged goods, mega companies. You seem to have a little bit more fun with your brands. I mean, how do you think your marketing stacks up to the big guys?
- [35:34]
Mark Smucker
You know, those are amazing companies. And I think what we know. And you know this because you've worked in this industry, our brands are everywhere, right? They're ubiquitous, they're in every store. And what that means in our industry is that to win is kind of a game of inches. You have to do a few things incrementally better than your competition. And one of the reasons why we have spent so much time investing in our marketing model, in our marketing partnership with Publicis, which is the firm that we work with, is because we have to win. And so to really think strategically about what these brands mean to consumers and be bold. Again, coming back to this idea of being bold with our creative execution that is addressing that consumer insight is how we will continue to win. So marketing is key. And continuing to invest in that capability is core to being able to win in this very competitive industry.
- [36:46]
David Novak
And Mark, you gotta be great at getting consumer insights. I mean, how do you get the insight? What do you do as a leader to make sure that you're grounded in the consumer? And you have that insight that taps into how people use your products and behave with your products.
- [37:02]
Mark Smucker
I think being in business for almost 130 years and having had to adapt over that timeframe to different consumer insights, I mean, for a hundred years, we were just essentially a jam and jelly company. And we reinvented the category. We came up with every imaginable flavor, every caloric or sugar content, different types of sweeteners. And I think that was the, the birthplace of listening to the consumer and I think making sure that we do the right kind of research. We listen to the consumer, we take them seriously, but we also don't go so deep that we get bogged down in too many insights. And then when we come back to the marketing work itself, we test it, we make sure that is not crossing too many cultural barriers, but it's resonating with the core consumer or the new consumer we're trying to reach. I mean, I think it's just having the right discipline.
- [38:02]
David Novak
So, you know, earlier on, you know, and you've clearly established this conversation that a, you love brands, but you also said you love working with people. You love the people side of the business. You know. You know, when you have a big change initiative that you gotta get done to make sure that Smuckers keeps its edge and you win, you know, what's the process you use? I mean, how do you think about leading people? What's it take?
- [38:27]
Mark Smucker
First of all, you have to set a clear vision, right? It has to be very clear what we're trying to accomplish and then continuing to cultivate the culture in order to deliver that. So, you know, I've mentioned authenticity. I think we have to remember that our people are human beings. And it doesn't matter where you go in the world. Every single one of us as human beings, we want the same things. We want a roof over our head. We want our children to be safe. We want a good education, to put food on the table. I mean, these are basic human needs. And if we can remember that each of us ultimately are striving for the same things, I think that allows us to be more. To relate to our people better and to not lose sight of these are all people. Even when we're making those difficult decisions, we have to treat them with respect. We have to make sure we're crystal clear in what the vision that we're marching toward is and help people understand what steps we need to take as a team to drive to that outcome.
- [39:38]
David Novak
You know, Mark, you've made a lot of bets on acquisitions, divesting great brands, and, you know, you've made a lot of big strategic decisions. What's the bet you've made as a CEO that still makes you a little bit nervous?
- [39:54]
Mark Smucker
One of the areas in pet that made me nervous is that we increased our scale in dog food. And in hindsight, that was not the right decision. Because when we acquired the pet business, we acquired it primarily because Milkbone was a crown jewel. It was a number one brand in dog snacks, and we knew that Meow Mix was a number one brand in dry cat food. And we knew from the get go that we could win with those two brands. And we thought that it gave us a right to Win in dog food, which is a much bigger category. You're going up against huge competitors like Nestle and Mars. And we increased our scale. We bought a brand in that category which ultimately didn't work. And there were some things, quite frankly, that we didn't see in the marketplace that we could have never anticipated. But what it taught us is that we have to stick to our strategy. Remember why we got in the pet business from the beginning, which was dog snacks and cat food, and ultimately cause us to change our strategy and exit dog food altogether. And then it essentially. We basically doubled our margins in the two businesses that we kept, and we started to drive growth. And so in that case, it was about focus, and it was remembering what our focus was and why we got into that business in the first place. And so having made that decision and then course correcting was the right thing to do.
- [41:45]
David Novak
Makes a lot of sense. And this has been so much fun. Mark and I want to have some more with my lightning round of questions. So are you ready for this?
- [41:53]
Mark Smucker
All right, let's go.
- [41:54]
David Novak
The three words that best describe you.
- [41:55]
Mark Smucker
Well, independent, authentic, Creative.
- [41:58]
David Novak
If you could be one person for a day besides yourself, who would it be?
- [42:01]
Mark Smucker
Billie Joe Armstrong, the lead singer of Green Day.
- [42:05]
David Novak
What's your biggest pet peeve?
- [42:06]
Mark Smucker
Complacency.
- [42:07]
David Novak
Who would play you in a movie?
- [42:09]
Mark Smucker
I get Matthew McConaughey, which I think is a compliment.
- [42:14]
David Novak
All right, what's your go to Smucker Snack?
- [42:17]
Mark Smucker
Uncrustables.
- [42:19]
David Novak
What's something you've been curious about lately that has absolutely nothing to do with work?
- [42:24]
Mark Smucker
I'm fascinated by outer space and the physics of the universe.
- [42:32]
David Novak
What's the one thing that you do just for you?
- [42:34]
Mark Smucker
Listen to music and play music in my little music studio at home.
- [42:39]
David Novak
Your instrument?
- [42:40]
Mark Smucker
Keyboards and saxophone.
- [42:42]
David Novak
Besides your family and friends, what's your most prized possession?
- [42:46]
Mark Smucker
I love my dog.
- [42:48]
David Novak
If I listened to your playlist, what would I hear?
- [42:51]
Mark Smucker
A lot of house music and reggae.
- [42:53]
David Novak
What's something about you few people would know?
- [42:56]
Mark Smucker
Oh, man, people know me pretty well.
- [43:01]
David Novak
What would they not know?
- [43:02]
Mark Smucker
I like to be alone.
- [43:03]
David Novak
Are you one of those extroverts that says that you're really an introvert?
- [43:07]
Mark Smucker
My Myers Briggs says I'm on the fence between an introvert and an extrovert.
- [43:12]
David Novak
That's right. You got the right brain. The left brain working. There you go. I love it. All right, what's one of your daily rituals? Something that you never miss?
- [43:21]
Mark Smucker
Honestly, there's a couple things I try to exercise in the morning, but I also usually Listen to music on the way to work. I usually listen to news or NPR maybe on the way home, but I usually don't start my day listening to the news. I might look at it on my phone at first, catch up on a little bit of tv. But when I get in the car and I have a 40 minute drive to work, my preparation is music.
- [43:49]
David Novak
I can't believe It'd take you 40 minutes to get anywhere in Akron.
- [43:54]
Mark Smucker
Yeah, it's about 40 minutes from Mooreville. But I grew up here in this little tiny town. I went to high school here and everything.
- [44:01]
David Novak
So you understand your soul just like you understand the soul of your brands?
- [44:05]
Mark Smucker
I think so.
- [44:05]
David Novak
There you go. You're out of the lightning round. Good job, Mark. Now, how do you think about leadership at home?
- [44:12]
Mark Smucker
I think one of the most important things in this job is to practice switching it off at home. I think that's what leadership is at home. It's understanding how to switch this work off at home and be present. And it's not always possible. And it's hard for us because we have jobs where we're on call 24 7. But being able to switch gears from the professional and to spend time with my wife and say, hey, honey, how was your day? And actually ask those questions and actually be curious about it, I think that's one of the most important things that we can do as leaders, to be present for our families.
- [44:53]
David Novak
And, you know, present is a big word these days. I mean, people are really talking about getting present, the spirituality of being present, not looking out to the future, not looking back. You know, how do you stay present? Do you have a trick up your sleeve that helps you do it?
- [45:10]
Mark Smucker
Practice makes perfect. I've done in my life, I've done a lot of yoga. I meditate when I can, and I think that helps. Meditation calms the mind and it helps us learn how to be present and learn how to switch off the craziness that our mind wants to tell us is going on.
- [45:32]
David Novak
That's great, great stuff. And last question here. What's one piece of advice you'd give to anyone who wants to be a better leader?
- [45:40]
Mark Smucker
You know, I always say that I think people need to show their true selves and be vulnerable. And I have seen in my career times when I have encouraged other leaders to do just that and let their guard down. They become more human to their teams and they become better leaders. And I can say from my own experience, the best leaders are the ones that are willing to take feedback and change. And I truly Believe I've had lots of feedback over the years from mentors from 360 assessments. And I always try to take it seriously. And we're never done right. We're never the best version of ourselves. And I hope that tomorrow I'm a better version of myself than I am today.
- [46:31]
David Novak
Well, Mark, I have to tell you I've enjoyed this conversation immensely. You are authentic, you know, you are creative, you're independent, and I can tell you you love your job and you have fun and it's a grind. I know there are a lot of times every day is not perfect, it's a grind. But I think when you, when you walk down the halls and you walk into a meeting, people know that it's going to be lively.
- [46:51]
Mark Smucker
For sure, you have to have fun and it can be a grind. But if we're not, we're not enjoying it, then it's not worth doing. Right.
- [46:59]
David Novak
Right. Right. And thank you. I've enjoyed this a lot.
- [47:02]
Mark Smucker
Thank you, David. I really appreciate it.
- [47:10]
Podcast Host
David, before listening to this conversation, I had no idea that Mark Smucker is a genius behind the craze that is uncrustables. They're about to be a billion dollar brand. Those tiny little sandwiches.
- [47:22]
Debrief Host
It's funny, it's this little town in Ohio, Akron, Ohio, or just outside of Akron, Ohio, has created one of the greatest packaged goods companies in the world with his leadership and his family's leadership. And it's really amazing to see how they win, which is, I think, breaking through the clutter, taking on the big guys, but doing it in a way that really captures the imagination of their consumers and they're not afraid to be bold. That's for David.
- [47:51]
Podcast Host
I loved hearing Mark's take on all of the topics that you all discussed because he is so creative and yet he's also very analytical at the same time. And I want to break down some of those concepts and get your take on them so that our listeners have something really tangible from this conversation that they can apply right away. The first concept that David, I want to debrief with you is this idea of bold creative. Mark's a creative guy and I loved hearing him share stories of some of the creative that worked for their family of brands. And he is not afraid to be bold with creative like that. The thing is though, a lot of people like to play it safe because the thought of being bold is just too risky for them. So how do you get internal buy in for bold creative like that and get everyone on the same page?
- [48:36]
Debrief Host
You know, first of all, I think it's part of what the culture of your company is, which is to stand out, to be different, and to break free, break through the clutter. But, you know, it's not enough just to be bold for boldness sake. You know, it has to be rooted in consumer behavior and how your consumers see your brand. And one great example of this is Jif in its earlier days, had a great positioning that everybody really admired, which was choosy. Mothers choose Jif, and it really positioned them as the peanut butter for moms who cared more about their family and wanted to give them the best. And it really worked. But as time evolved, it became a little bit outdated. And then he evolved to.
- [49:16]
David Novak
That's Jiffin good. I mean, you know, that's, that's. That's pretty. That's pretty out there. I don't know if I'd had the courage to go that way because, you know, it's pretty close to something else.
- [49:25]
Debrief Host
But they did it and, you know, it's been very successful and it's helped them really, really drive the business. But, you know, I think what you have to do with your team and the entire organization is let people know what, what you, what you are, what you, what you stand for and how you've won. And I think that's where they've made the conscious decision that they want to be out front in terms of where culture is. They want to talk to consumer in terms of where culture is and where it's going. And they want to be leaders. They don't want to be followers, and they're not afraid to take on the big guys like Procter and Gamble and General Mills with less money, because what they do is they're very smart about how they spend theirs and, and making sure that they really stand for something that's unique and different in the marketplace. And just as importantly, not just different, not just breaking through the clutter, but being relevant to their consumers in terms of really, you know, giving them the products that they're looking for and talking to them in a way that they want to be talked to.
- [50:29]
Podcast Host
It's such a good distinction not being bold for boldness sake, but being bold in a way that is rooted in consumer behavior and attention. If that distinction is, is so helpful, because you do see some brands who are just going for it, just to go for it, and it doesn't really make sense and it doesn't land and it's almost, you know, self serving in a way. But yeah, to be.
- [50:48]
Debrief Host
How many commercials cooler have you seen and ads that you've seen that you don't even remember is who it's for. The, you know, not. Not next day. I'm talking five minutes from now, right? You know, many of the super bowl commercials where you're spending millions and millions of dollars on, you know, you don't even remember them, versus, you know, there are some people who really break through cluttering.
- [51:09]
David Novak
You remember them forever.
- [51:09]
Debrief Host
I remember Master Lock, which was one of my favorite commercials ever, and they still run it. They take that master lock, they show the master lock, and they show a bullet being shot through the master lock, and it's indestructible. And they ran. That was the only ad they ran all year. But it broke through the clutter. You know, established Master Lock is the most secure and safe lock. And everybody remember their names. Now, that's bold, creative, that's relevant.
- [51:36]
Podcast Host
David, the final concept that I heard Mark talk a lot about in your conversation is this idea of curiosity. And he talks about exploring new cultures, traveling. He lived in Argentina for a while, and he believes that being curious about the world makes him a better leader. And I'm curious, David, what do you do to stay curious in a way that helps you continue to become a better leader and person?
- [51:58]
Debrief Host
You know, I think what he's really talking about there is just learning. And I wrote the book How Leaders Learn, and it's all about having curiosity in different ways, learning from your upbringing, learning from pattern thinking, you know, learning from. From. By listening. But I think in the end, you know, the best leaders, they have their antenna up. They're just always looking for new ideas. And, you know, we've had guests on before saying there's nothing like having fresh eyes and seeing things like a child. And when you see things as a child, you discover new things and you see things in a light that you'd otherwise not have. And I think leaders have to have fresh eyes. They've just got to have that antenna up and want to learn and pick up new things. I think one of the things that was the greatest things we ever did at Yum Branch was just do best practice visits. We would go to the best restaurants that we thought were out there and just go in and see what they were doing and say, what could we do in our restaurants? We went to the best companies. If there was social media that was coming in that was really taking off, like TikTok or you pick it, we'd be the first to go to that place and learn everything that we could about it, because you have to have your antenna up.
- [53:26]
Podcast Host
I've heard you talk a lot, David, about being an idea hunter, which is basically what you're saying. Just always on the hunt for new ideas or how to do things better or pattern thinking. And I loved your book, How Leaders Learn. I think that whole idea of active learning is just that.
- [53:42]
David Novak
Yeah.
- [53:43]
Debrief Host
It's not enough just to be an avid learner. You have to take what you learn by being an avid learner and turn it into action. You know, bring it back to your team and your company and do something from that learning that will be relevant to your own specific business. And, you know, I always say that you really don't have to be that smart if you're just smart enough to learn from others.
- [54:05]
Podcast Host
Well, David, speaking about curiosity, what's something that you're curious about right now that has nothing to do with work?
- [54:11]
Debrief Host
You know, I think I'm really, you know, I've always been, you know, a big believer and love the Bible, but I'm also now really trying to learn more about spirituality in different ways. You know, one book that I read every day, it's just funny, you know, you asked me that, but I just look down, I see a couple books right here. Okay.
- [54:32]
David Novak
A few more than two. You know, I got four on my desk right now.
- [54:36]
Debrief Host
I'd read this one every day, the Daily Stoic. Okay. And you know, I try to apply that to my life. You know, I love the Road Less Traveled, you know, the Dark side of the Light Chasers, which is an excellent book, makes you think.
- [54:52]
David Novak
And Man's Search for Meaning.
- [54:54]
Debrief Host
You know, these are just four I have my desk. I haven't read all of them, but I've read some of them. But I pick them up, read a chapter here, chapter there, and one that is not on my desk right now that I love is Think Like a Monk.
- [55:03]
David Novak
Okay.
- [55:04]
Debrief Host
It's been around for a while, but I hadn't read it. And I love it. But it has nothing to do with work. But it gets me to have higher self awareness and hopefully be a more compassionate and kinder person.
- [55:15]
Podcast Host
I love stuff that just makes you think. Sometimes it's just good to think with no other agenda.
- [55:20]
Debrief Host
Yeah. Self reflection is one of the key traits every great leader has.
- [55:23]
Podcast Host
Well, David, that does it for our episode today. Thank you so much. And thank you to Mark Smucker for a fantastic conversation.
- [55:30]
Debrief Host
With a name like Smucker's cool, it's got to be.
- [55:32]
Podcast Host
It's gotta be good. And of course, thank you to you, our listeners, for tuning in to another episode of How Leaders Lead, we will see in the next Thursday.