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How Leaders Lead with David Novak
#293: David Lafitte – CEO, Tecovas – Serve others with radical hospitality
01:09:11
Listen to this leadership podcast with David Lafitte, CEO of Tecovas, and discover how to bring radical hospitality not just to your customers but also to your whole business.
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- [00:00]
A
Hello, friends, and welcome to another episode of How Leaders Lead with David Novak. Today we have David Lafitte on the show. He's the CEO of the popular western retailer To Covis, which has gained tons of traction over the last several years. You'll see in this conversation that David has a people first mentality that doesn't only apply to things like customer service, but it also has changed the way he's built his entire business. That people first mentality might just be the competitive advantage that you've been looking for. Enjoy this conversation between David and David, and I will see you at the debrief.
- [00:40]
B
David, it's great to have you on the show. Great.
- [00:42]
C
Thank you for having me, David. Honored to be here. And I love your T shirt.
- [00:46]
B
Well, let me tell you something. This is unpaid advertising for you. We do not accept any advertising on Hal Leaders Lead. But before we had this podcast, you know, I've been. We have the Palm Beach Gardens mall near our house. So you've got a store that's. That's great. You got great people in there. The concept is fantastic. I love seeing retail when it's brought to life the way I. How you do it. So I had to go in there, get. To get, get the garb. I knew you'd move beyond cowboys boots, which you have. And I got the hat and I got the T shirt and, you know, I got out of there without spending too much money. So it's kind of nice.
- [01:24]
C
It's a way to get people into the brand, at least.
- [01:26]
B
And I noticed when I was there that you have boots made from everything. Cowhide, crocodile, lizard, goat, ostrich, rattlesnake. What's your favorite pair and why?
- [01:40]
C
You know, I rotate quite a bit, but my favorite pair right now is a pair of bison. That's regenerative bison, incredibly soft and yet durable. So that's one of my favorite pairs right now, but I kind of rotate quite a bit. I've gone from 0 pairs to about 62 now, so I've got a few to choose from.
- [02:00]
B
You know, I didn't really know about to Covis, but when I had my bought my cowboy boots, I got. I think they're Lucasi is what I had. You know, Lucasi is pretty upscale brand. I have to admit, I was kind of blown away by how much they wanted for a pair of boots, you know, But. But how does your. How do you. How do your boots compare and what makes. What makes your. Your boots unique?
- [02:21]
C
What we pride ourselves on is craftsmanship, quality, and I think Some of the secret sauce is out of the box comfort. You know, a lot of times if you go put on a pair of cowboy boots, it's going to take you a month to wear them in. I think if you go in a sit and fit environment and try our boots on, you'll be amazed at how comfortable they are. I've taken my daughters to a store before a UT football game and we tailgated all day and on our feet all night at the game. No one had a blister. So that's the real telltale there.
- [02:54]
B
You know what's really great for me to be able to have this conversation with you is I love country music. I like going out west. I like a good old pair of cowboy boots, and I can't wait to really get at what you're really building. But could you give us a snapshot of the Toccoba's brand as it exists today and where you see the company going?
- [03:21]
C
So at Tacova's, we're authentically western brand selling cowboy boots and apparel and accessories. We started back in 2015, kind of known as the Warby Parker of cowboy boots. And since that time, which was known for kind of taking out the middleman, since that time, we've really tried to position the brand as a premium brand and steeped in Western authenticity. We have a pretty simple strategy statement. I talked about kind of one pillar of this craftsmanship and quality in footwear. The other piece is this concept of radical hospitality where we want to be very approachable. You know, if you have not worn a pair of cowboy boots before and you walk into a store and you see a wall of boots, it can be fairly overwhelming. So we spend a lot of time training our retail associates on, you know, not a hard sell, but just educating people about different products and what, you know, their use case may be and getting to know them a little bit. So we're wanting to kind of honor the heritage of the cowboy boot and kind of grow the roots, if you will, but then also kind of sharing this incredible story with people that are non traditionally Western that may be buying their pair of boots for the first time. And so we're trying to kind of thread that needle. One of the filters I like to use is to make sure that, you know, the people that are truly that this is their lifestyle. If I look through their lens, they would be proud of the work that we're doing, both in the way in which we're bringing it forward with the products we're making, but not some drugstore Cowboy kind of just trying to take advantage of a, of a moment in time. So we're really big on kind of honoring the past and trying crafting its future. And so we're doing a combination of building those roots and at the same time opening stores in places like SoHo in New York and Philadelphia and Detroit to more non traditional western markets.
- [05:24]
B
So you mentioned radical hospitality. How'd you come up with that notion of what really drove that? Tell us the story behind that.
- [05:33]
C
Well, it's really, I think our view is that in addition to kind of these days, people spending hard earned money on a product that's not inexpensive, we want the value proposition of that product to be incredibly high. At the same time, I want them walking away from our store with an experience with a story. So we do things like we have a bar in every store other than one, so 56 stores, we've got a bar in there serving alcoholic, non alcoholic beverages. We've done a lot of things like Boot Shines, which we'll offer on the house. We do a lot of personalization and branding. So if people want to put their wedding dates on their children's date, birth dates or their college football logo, we do all of that complementary as well. So we try and offer just a lot of different hospitable experiences and making sure and then again that approachable part of it so that they can get learned and get educated on the product as well. And we kind of use this theme not only and to the point where in last year and in 2024, 2024, about 24, 25% of our transactions in store had some form of personalization. We did over 180,000 personalizations last year in 2025. And when you think about people that are willing to kind of wait around a little bit, it may take 15 minutes to get your branding done. But it's a little more dwell time in the store. We get to know them better, offer them again, alcoholic, non alcoholic beverage. So the dwell time, we get to know our consumers a little bit better. And I think it really helps to have an emotional connection with them. And at the end of the day, it's the long term value that we want and we want people coming back to visit us and whether they're buying or not, come have a beverage with us and chat. So it's a big part of what we're doing. Radical hospitality is now kind of spilled over into really everything we do. I'm kind of a big believer in this principle based management, you know, Coke industries that has Started a lot of that on, you know, we want to be the brand that people want to work with, whether you're our factory partner, whether you're our wholesale partner or a consumer. You know, if you had to choose one brand that you could only work with, I would like them to say it's to Cova's because we're, we're, because of that radical hospitality. And it doesn't mean we're giving everything away. It just means we're, we're straight shooters, we're transparent about what we're doing. For a factory partner, you know, I want a 10 year relationship. It has to be win, win. If I'm grabbing margin one year, they're going to have to grab it another year. We have to find ways that our relationship is sustainable over a long period of time because we're not going to own factories, but we certainly can be strategic partners with them as well. So it's a concept that and, or our employees, you know, we want to make sure if, if we're not being radically hospitable to our employee base, how can we expect that they in turn do the same for our consumers?
- [08:49]
B
And you know, I was thinking about just the whole cowboy boot industry. You know, what would surprise us about who's actually buying boots today.
- [08:58]
C
You'd be surprised at how and how many people that have bought their first pair that repeat fairly often. I mean we have people in a Facebook to Cova's enthusiast group, some of whom have 50 pairs of boots, some are 35, some are 40. And you know, it's one reason why I've kind of resisted this concept of a loyalty program. I think it cuts against this concept of radical hospitality. I don't really want our teams focused on who they think is going to be the long term value consumer. We don't know, it may be that somebody just put their first pair on and all of a sudden they've got 10 pairs. I'd rather have a, a program where we, we treat our, our good customers very well and we know if they've bought multiple pairs and you know, maybe they have early access to things, et cetera. But I, I don't really like the concept of hey, you know, come buy another pair and we'll give you a few points here and there. I'd rather open that aperture up and let's see who's coming through that door and all of a sudden is buying other things as well. You know, we're apparel, we accessories. Last year we couldn't keep in stock. So I, I think people, if we're known for our craftsmanship and an aspirational brand, we're finding people getting into the brand through a billfold or, you know, a credit card holder, those types of things as well.
- [10:26]
B
Yeah, I noticed that in the, in the store. And by the way, your, your people were just as you had described. You know, you saw the great conversations they were having with customers that they were very focused on, you know, building
- [10:38]
D
a relationship, which is, which is great to see.
- [10:41]
B
So when I went in, I already had my pair of boots, so I didn't buy any boots this time. I'll have to go back sometime. But you know, I did get this hat and I got this T shirt. And how do you, how do you decide what category you're going to go into? I mean, how do you decide how to, how to add a specific item?
- [10:59]
C
I think we want to make sure that we stick to our core for a while now. If I look out 10 years, I could see a lot of different things that would be probably inappropriate to start now until you've kind of connected those dots and built a meaningful bridge to where we are now versus where we can get. But I'll give you an example. We have a slip on loafer called the Monterey. It's got our DNA in the sense of high quality craftsmanship and materials. You wouldn't think that's a western looking shoe necessarily. That shoe alone does over 6 million. So we can kind of see now people are, as I mentioned, about the accessories as well. They appreciate the craftsmanship and high quality of the products that were coming up with. And so we'll pick our shots on where we think we call that western adjacent and try and make sure it's got some DNA. We think things are natural like jeans, denim. We believe we're making jeans that can accommodate a boot cut. So you don't have that X ray kind of where the shaft of the boots poking through your jeans. But at the same time, if you're wearing loafers or sneakers with those jeans, you're not going to look down and it looks like a, you're wearing a bell bottom pair of pants. So they're natural things that we can go into, you know, pearl snaps, performance shirts, you know, fishing type shirts, but that have a little bit of a western DNA to them as well. But we're careful about it. I want to be careful we don't move away from our core too quickly because I think there's a lot. I think people tend to move away too quickly thinking they have to kind of jump an S curve sometimes prematurely.
- [12:44]
B
Has there been a time when you've done that, I mean, where you wish you wouldn't have lost an item?
- [12:49]
C
We've been pretty careful about it here at Tacova's. I mean, a more mature business. When I was at my former firm, Deckers, yeah, I mean, I think there were times when, you know, you put a growth rate on a brand and, you know, we bought, when I was at Deckers, we bought the Sanuk brand and it was a very hot surf type brand. You know, immediately it's like, okay, we should build this into a large lifestyle brand. And I think move too quickly and what you do is you alienate your core. The people who kind of brought you there are out, and then you're trying to now throw everything against the wall to bring in new consumers and you've kind of lost your way. And so I've seen it quite a bit. Is the answer yes. And it happens to more mature brands when you're trying to find new green shoots.
- [13:39]
B
You know, one of the biggest television hits in recent years has to be Yellowstone. I mean, I loved watching that. And was there any Yellowstone effect to your business? I mean, you know, that was such a, almost like a cultural, you know, movement, you know, and everybody was watching it and talking about it and it's all out west and people are wearing boots. I mean, did that impact your business at all?
- [14:03]
C
And of course, absolutely. I mean, it was a huge effect. I mean, I think each episode had more than 13 million viewers. And it had an enormous effect, you know, in Taylor Sheridan storytelling. And, and what he's been able to do has, has been huge. I, I do think it's, I, I think it's very different than like urban cowboy, the 1980s. You know, that was a film that, you know, where a lot of trend happened and then kind of dissipated. I, I think western has become more of mainstream and I think more accepted. And it's look, it's one of the most iconic silhouettes in US footwear. So I think, again, but wanting to make sure the other thing about our product is timeless style. We want to make products that aren't going to be coming in and out of fashion every year now we'll push the envelope on certain colors and things like that just to have some interesting visual merchandising in our stores. But for the most part, when you buy a pair of boots, you're going to keep these for 15, 20 years, 30 years, handing them down to your kids, and they won't be out of style because I think we are focused on sort of that timeless style.
- [15:20]
B
You know, I read that I think there's over 200 steps in making your, your, your, your boots, which is that that requires tremendous craftsmanship. You know, as you get bigger and bigger, how do you scale that? How do you scale the ability to make these high quality boots that require such an intricate process?
- [15:40]
C
Well, it's where you have to pick and choose capital allocation and what you're going to focus on and what we've kind of agreed upon as a team is we're going to be relentless about that. Which means, you know, just because you hear all the time about, oh, those products are made in the same factory as some other product, it's not about the factory, it's about the production lines that you manage. And you know, we have a large internal team in Lyon, Mexico of over 50 people that are responsible for product development, quality control, and then continuous improvement coaching of our factory partners and the people who are on the line. So it's a commitment that, you know, if you turn your head for the briefest time, you will start. All it takes is a little bit at a time and before you know it, you know you're pointing the wrong direction. So you can't ever let your eye off of it. But you have to be willing to, you know, to build the team and train the people and have just a relentless attention to detail on it.
- [16:44]
B
As a leader, how do you, David, how do you build that relationship with the factory heads and the people? You know, what's your process? Do you use?
- [16:54]
C
Well, I'll give you actually a story that when I first started in this business at Deckers as their chief operating officer, when I got there, the mandate was you have to go find $150 million of cost savings in your supply chain. And so I was a corporate attorney. I didn't know exactly what I was going to go after. So I went to the team and said, okay, what ideas do you have? A bunch of hands go up and one of them was, well, we're the largest purchaser of sheepskin in the world, and yet the factories are requesting a 20% buffer for cutting yields. But what's happening is they can cut much more efficiently than that. So they're just short purchasing the material and they're profiting from that because in the FOB that we're being quoted, we're assuming they're going to go by a certain million square feet of sheepskin and when in fact, they're only buying whatever, 80% of that, let's say, okay, that's a great idea. Why did that stall? Well, the factories don't like it. I'm like, okay, well, how did we present this to the factories? So, long story short, I went over to Asia and met with all the key partners, but also realized that we had splintered the production to like 30 different groups. Well, you're not going to mean anything to anybody when you're spreading out your product that much. And so my thought was, look, let's pick five key partners and we're going to go to them and say, look, you're giving us a price and quoting it on line items on what the cost of material is, what your labor is, what your overhead is. But if you're good at cutting, then great, I'm going to send you more units and you're going to balloon up from whatever 200,000 pair to a million pair. And we'll keep going and give you more and more if you're that good at cutting and production. So we made it a win win. And I think that again, that transparency of understanding where we could get better too. Our forecasting needed to improve. We could be better at planning, we could be better at a lot of things. We could stop sampling so much product, which all cost money. So I think it's a matter of sitting down and what are we doing that's not very good that we should improve? And in turn, what do I need from my factory partner? And by the way, we're willing to commit and invest with you for the next 10 years, but let's keep this continuous improvement sort of mindset. And I think over time they appreciated that sort of a dialogue. And that's how you build these relationships. And as I said, I want to be the brand that they want to work with when things like Covid happen. You know, if I have got a strong relationship and some of it's showing up. I used to travel to Asia once a quarter and sometimes people were shocked. Like, we haven't seen a chief operating officer here in 10 years. You know, but showing the importance of it and just building that relationship and what can I do for them? And here's what I need from you.
- [20:03]
B
You know, you joined to Covis in 2022 and that was seven years after the company was founded. When you walked in the door, what was the first thing you knew you had to protect?
- [20:14]
C
Well, the brand. I think the one thing that Paul Hedrick, the founder, did that was spot on was the, was the look and feel of the brand and so had to protect that. You know, like even the store design, for example. It wasn't like we could improve that design maybe from an operational standpoint and a flow, you know, how the associates could more effectively serve the consumer. But as far as the aesthetic goes, it was spot on. So I had the luxury of not having to go change any of that. And if I was Paul, I would have focused on the demand curve first and making sure that brand was right. So a lot of the work that I had to do initially was more on the supply side of things because we were running off the rails a little bit from distribution center being able to service and fulfill within service levels that were necessary. The amount of units we were now producing needed to start moving from one factory to now multiple factories. But there wasn't a lot of expertise in supply chain to be able to. It was like almost each factory was having to value reverse engineer the product because there were no tech packs like listing out what specific components and what the leather specifications were. So we had to build a lot of that up. But, you know, that we could kind of handle in fairly short order and get our arms around that pretty quickly. I think the biggest thing that I saw when I arrived was more of a capital allocation issue on labor. We had certain groups that were just way too big and we didn't need that yet, like in functions like administrative, HR and finance. And we had other functions that were just desperate for people. Product development, the product team, materials, people. So actually, within the first 60 days, I did a little bit of a reduction in force of about 15% of the workforce, mainly so I could free up some dollars to go invest in these other areas that were desperately underpersoned. But I had support from the founder from day one. He would want to know the why behind what I was thinking and why I was moving in a certain direction. But I've never felt that I didn't have his support on things I needed to get done.
- [22:44]
B
That's great. And you know, you mentioned product development. Where do you get your creative inspiration from? I mean, do you immerse yourself out west, go to ranches, get around music, the music culture? Or is it somewhere that's really kind of unexpected?
- [23:00]
C
I think it's all of the above. And when you say me, I don't have any. So I have to surround myself with the people, People that do have all that creative instincts, et cetera. So my biggest asset is just surrounding myself with the best people that do have that sort of creativity. And then how do you make sure that all that creativity is sort of integrated in a way that comes to life? The consumer that's sort of very cohesive and not all over the place. But country music is a huge. You mentioned Yellowstone. You know, country music, when you look at what's happening and people like Morgan Wallen and Zach Bryan selling out football stadiums two, three nights in a row. And again, non traditional western markets like San Francisco. I went to Levi's Stadium to see Morgan Wallen with my wife and daughter. And you'd never believe there were so many western folks in San Francisco. And this is two, three nights in a row, same at Ann Arbor. 80,000 people for Zach Bryan. So. And when these folks tour around, you know, if our plan, if they're going to tour in Charlotte, North Carolina, and our plan for that day called for $12,000 at our retail store, it may do 40,000. Now we're very good about putting all that data into our planning system. So we load up those stores.
- [24:21]
B
That makes a lot of sense.
- [24:22]
C
So they're ready.
- [24:23]
B
You're not going to go to a concert without those boots on, I can tell you.
- [24:26]
C
Absolutely. So, you know, we're seeing. But, but we get inspiration from a lot of this and, but, but also again, staying true to our product pillars and the hand feel of, of the leathers and, and again, even our shirts and denim. We want to make sure we're meeting those product pillars and kind of staying in that framework.
- [24:46]
B
I want to stay, you know, more on Taco, obviously in your leadership. But first I want to take you
- [24:52]
C
back a little bit.
- [24:53]
B
David, you know, what's the story from your childhood that shaped the kind of leader you are today?
- [24:58]
C
Oh, boy. I think, I would say probably my father, I think my father was an incredible lawyer, but humble and humility guy, would never talk about himself. He rose to become from Shreveport, Louisiana to be president a group called the American College of Trial Lawyers. Growing up, I think I had every Supreme Court justice stay at our house, from William Brennan to Lewis Powell to Justice Scalia. And it didn't matter what political side of the equation, my dad ended up kind of befriending all of them. But I think seeing a lot of that honestly as a kid, I was a little bit of a too cool for school type mentality. And I think some of that was probably a little bit of a, a defense mechanism on insecurities like if I don't apply myself and I fail, it's because I didn't care type mentality. And I, I think a lot of that changed when I, and I messed around a lot. You know, in, in high school and college. I, I think when I finally got to law school, and frankly I got lucky, I was on a waiting list for Tulane. And fortunately, about one day before the, the, the first year was going to start, I got off the waiting list and dove in. And that's kind of the first time I really buckled down and applied myself and I showed myself, you know, what I could do, et cetera. And then when I got out of law school, I wanted to be a corporate attorney. And this is 1991 and it was a pretty bad recession. Lathaman Watkins had just let go of 90 corporate associates. And so it was like good luck getting a job in that corporate world. So my first three years I went to a small firm to do litigation. But I quickly realized that while I did well in law school, a lot of these big white shoe firms were going to be hiring from Ivy League and you know, top 10, 15 law schools. So I kind of developed a little bit of chip on my shoulder there and I think I started to kind of get to where my dad was, meaning he always worked his tail off. And I guarantee you he never showed up in court where he was out prepared ever. And I think that a lot of that ended up rubbing off on me.
- [27:32]
A
Hello friends. I hope you're loving this conversation. Be sure to stay tuned to the very end of the episode. As always. Ways David and I are going to debrief some of the concepts that he talks about with this week's guest. So stay tuned to the very end and I will see you soon.
- [27:46]
D
Now you spent, as I understand it,
- [27:48]
B
about 25 years as a, as a lawyer. What did practicing law teach you that most CEOs never learn?
- [27:56]
C
Well, I think first of all, this radical hospitality concept, you know, we were to, I was at a mid sized California firm and we were up against all the big New York firms, the Lathams, Gibson Dunns, all those types. So punching above our weight on the types of deals we were working on. But boy, if you didn't have the service element there and if a client sent an email in or a voicemail, if I didn't respond to that in minutes, they're going to move on and go elsewhere. So we not only had to compete with incredible lawyers, but if we didn't compete on service, we were going to lose. And that's something just as an associate and to this day I'm probably a little bit of a pain in the rear with the team. Although I Try and back off a little bit. But sometimes if I send an email or a Slack or something, I think they know I don't like it to sit for too long. And even though I've backed off that a little bit because I don't think all that's necessary when it's a consumer, though, I do think it's necessary. And so I think that service is critical. I'll never forget I was fairly new at the law firm and I was working for the managing partner, one of the name partners, and I was working on one of the biggest deals that was going on at the time. It was a large acquisition that was being funded through a public equity offering and a large credit facility. And I think I was probably, I just moved there. So I was probably a third or fourth year associate. I was probably up for three or four days straight. And we were trying to get this deal closed the next day. And the guy whose client it was calls me in and says, hey, I've got a new company coming in tomorrow, tomorrow morning, I'd like you to meet with me with them. And I've got all this stuff to do. And I'm like, what, is he kidding? And so I walk in this meeting and it's three Taiwanese guys, young, could hardly speak any English. They wanted me to kind of walk through bylaws and, and I'm looking up at the managing partner going, I got to get to this thing closed over here, you know, and. But I'll never forget the fact that he was willing to spend just as much time with this startup company that it was a brand new client as he was with this larger client that we were trying to get this deal closed. And that's kind of the service aspect of it. And sure enough, by the way, that little semiconductor company we ended up selling three years later for about 400 million.
- [30:34]
B
When did you feel, David, that you maybe stopped being a lawyer and became a brand builder?
- [30:40]
D
I mean, you're building that brand now.
- [30:42]
B
I mean, that's got to be the overall goal.
- [30:45]
C
Yeah, I, I think when I made the decision to, to leave the law practice, I, I had a, you know, the chairman, the, the, the former chairman, CEO of Deckers grabbed me at a board meeting and said, can you have lunch on Monday? And I said, sure. And they had been looking for a chief operating officer at Deckers for about a year. And he said, I think you should take this role. I'm like, well, I, I don't know anything about operations or footwear other than that. It sounds like a Perfect fit. He's like, no, no, no, don't worry about that. I'll teach you about footwear. But, you know, the team trusts you since you've been our outside counsel for a while. And let's give this a run. I think it'll be good for you. I had just turned 50 and figured, why not? If I fail, I'll fail fast and go back to the practice of law. But, you know, right when I made that change, at the time, I was mentoring the then associate general counsel to. To become the general counsel, and I didn't want to be hovering over him. So once I got to the chief operating officer role, I kind of did everything other than the law practice, and I just kind of put it in the rearview mirror, and I really have not looked back. And I am probably my own worst lawyer because I'm willing to take any risk that's out there. So I need to make sure I've got lawyers actually checking me on. And that's.
- [32:07]
B
Now you need a good lawyer.
- [32:09]
C
Well, exactly. Yeah.
- [32:10]
B
When you said you'd never aspired to be a CEO, what changed? Was there a moment where you said, hey, you know, I'd really like to run the whole thing?
- [32:20]
C
Well, first of all, the opportunity came up. You know, I don't. When I say I didn't really aspire to be one, I wasn't against it, but at the same time, you know, I wasn't out there kind of marketing myself to do it. So the toa's opportunity came up. I almost lost the job. I remember at a dinner with several of the board members, and it was a great dinner, and thought, okay, this is going incredibly well. And then one of the board members said, so why do you want to be a CEO? And I'm like, well, I. I really don't. This just kind of came up, and it wasn't a great answer. I think that what intrigued me about it, I guess, is, you know, in my role before on the executive team, I could influence things. I could beat my head against the wall sometimes when I couldn't influence things, but I thought sometimes I'd be watching a train wreck that if I could just nip it in the bud and make a call earlier, things would have been a lot easier. And so while I like to build consensus and make sure we've got people that are bought into decisions that are being made, it is nice to make a call and move on. And once we make that call and move on, I want to hear people's opinions and ideas. But I Can't get unanimity in every decision. But once we've kind of deliberated, I expect everyone to get in the boat and start rowing hard instead of going back to their team saying, I told them this isn't going to work. We'll see, because then it's not going to work. So anyway, I like to get the buy in, but at the same time you gotta be able to make a call and move on. And I think in this role, that's been the most refreshing part of it. Now, the other part that I gotta be careful of is people take my words literally. And when I say, and I may think something's a good idea, I don't want them just running with it and saying, well, David said we should do this. Like, no, no, no. I was raising it to see if we think it's a good idea. Don't just, you know, So I gotta be careful about being, you know, sort of interpreted too literally, if you will.
- [34:24]
B
Yeah, you know. So Paul Heydrich was the founder of Tokova's. You know, what's the biggest leadership thing you've learned from watching him in action?
- [34:35]
C
I think Paul's got a lot of the characteristics that, you know, he's just a straight shooting guy. I mean, he's never. He does what he says he's going to do. He's got very good vision. I mentioned about the brand aesthetic, things like that. So even to this day, you know, if I. His main role would be, you know, if we're rolling something out, you know, does it fit kind of within the brand guardrails and. And if maybe we're pushing the envelope a little too much, you know, he's good to sit down and bounce it around with. So I use him a lot on, on aesthetic, not only on, on like the retail design or even marketing, the look and feel of some of our creative content, but product as well. But those are the qualities. I think he's got a lot of vision, more so than I do. I'm not a real visionary. I don't believe I hire people so we can empower them to go do their jobs. Because as I said earlier, I think surrounding yourself with the best people is the best thing I can do. But if I don't let them do their job, I'm kind of defeating the purpose. And once the team is clicking, it kind of allows me to think a little bit further along, like, where can this be in five years, in 10 years? And so I will start sort of thinking about plan B or what if this doesn't work or what if this happens, then we got to go on a different thing or where are we going to jump an S curve when things do slow down a little bit?
- [36:07]
B
I did some of my research. I saw where you actually said that you felt you were a little bit more risk averse than Paul. But you just mentioned just a few minutes ago, now you're taking lots of risk. Have you evolved as a leader on that front? Are you more in the take the gamble mode than ever before?
- [36:28]
C
Well, not necessarily. I think one reason why I was a good lawyer is that entrepreneurs and business leaders want to hear you say no. If you want to know what they're trying to achieve, what is the problem you're trying to solve, you might be able to get them 92% of the way there, which gets them all they need in a lot less risky path. So I think in general, business is about risk, it's about calculated risk. So I don't want the team falling over backwards off a cliff that we didn't know was there. But I certainly don't mind, you know, people taking a shot at something and it just turns out it didn't work. Those are the biggest learnings you'll have. And you can course correct whether it's a product that you thought was going to be a product market fit and it didn't and it wasn't, that's okay, that's not going to kill you. So we want the team taking calculated risk and we'll learn from them and we'll move on.
- [37:24]
B
You know, when you come up as a new brand and you're building your
- [37:29]
D
business, you know, it's almost like you
- [37:32]
B
have that chip on the shoulder that you're talking about from not being in an Ivy League school or whatever. You work hard or whatever, but you got kind of a challenger mindset. Is that a mindset you're hanging on to now? Do you think you still have a challenger mindset or do you think you've moved past that?
- [37:49]
C
No, no, no. Complacency is my biggest fear. We have a continuous improvement mindset. I think it just, I need people to constantly be curious, constantly trying to push the envelope and there's just never a finish line. And I think the key is trying to get people motivated to understand it's all about the journey. Once you get to the top, it's like, okay, now what? And I think that having a little bit of a continuous improvement mindset, together with stepping back and recognizing people and recognizing the wins that we've had, I Think that balance is important, but, yeah, complacency is my biggest concern about an organization and myself, frankly.
- [38:34]
B
How do you guard against that? What do you do personally to make sure you don't get complacent? And besides, just know it's a problem?
- [38:41]
C
You know, again, a little bit of intellectual curiosity just on, you know, we've got a long way to go. I mean, we're a western small brand right now. I mean, our goal is to become the next great American footwear apparel lifestyle brand. So we've just got a lot of work to do in front of us, and it's fun. You know, I think. I don't know, I may be a little bit different. I'm 61, but, you know, I kind of completely changed careers, as I said, at 50. And so I almost feel like I'm just getting going in a lot of ways that my team may be. Sorry to hear that, but I doubt that.
- [39:19]
B
What do you do, David, to stay personally connected to customers? I mean, how do you get the real pulse of what's happening in your
- [39:26]
D
stores and with your customers?
- [39:27]
C
Yeah, I like to visit stores. You know, I live five blocks from our flagship in Austin, so I'm constantly walking my dog down there, and I like to sit in there and sometimes have a beer and just kind of hear conversations and things like that. I also, I think my team kind of doesn't love this, but, you know, people seem to find my email quite a bit. And so while we, while we set a high bar for ourselves on this radical hospitality, I'll have somebody email me saying, you know, I just went into your such and such store and just had a terrible experience. And they go on and on. And I email them back and, you know, and we chat about it, and the first thing they say is, oh, my God, I can't believe you responded to this. I was just venting. And some of those people I've kept a relationship with, you know, and kind of, they're in Seattle, for example, and I'm. I'm chatting with a guy in Seattle about, hey, we're thinking about a store in this area, that area. Any thoughts? So, you know, that's hard to scale, but we, we. We have each retail store do a summary at the end of the day. You know, what went well, what were you proud of, what were your numbers, how did you bring the spirit of the west to the. To the afternoon, et cetera. And so it's a little bit of a summary on recapping the day. And I try and read Those every day, every night. Now it's up to. Because we have 56 stores, it's 56 emails of reading again, how that day went. But my mind a lot of times works in. Maybe it's my reading a legal background or whatever, but I kind of get a lot of it of those anecdotes than I do just looking at a spreadsheet of numbers. And so I kind of feel like I have a pretty good finger on the pulse when I can read those kinds of things. And I think it's fun for the team. They know I'm reading them, and I'll respond and email the group saying, wow, what an incredible day. What a great story that you helped this woman get to her car from, you know, the door because it was snowing and she was slipping. You know, just little things like that are nice to see.
- [41:35]
B
You know, I've heard you say something that I thought was really interesting, that you don't want to be known as concrete Cowboy. Explain what you mean by that.
- [41:44]
C
If there's a guy on a ranch and he's talking to his buddies and they're talking about to covas, I want them to be proud of what they're seeing and what we're bringing to life, whether it's our creative content, whether it's a. A commercial we're running, an advertisement, or the product we're doing and the way we're showing up, as opposed to kind of, I don't know, someone doing karaoke in the snow with a fake background. I think it's just trying to maintain authenticity is the main point. And I think that if we can do that in a way that makes the true ranch hand proud instead of embarrassed, then I think that's a good filter to use. And it's one reason we got into wholesale recently. It's been about a year and a half now. And the channel that I wanted to get into was a lot of these independent Western stores that are truly catering to an authentic Western lifestyle consumer. These are people who have probably been shopping at that store in Howell, Michigan, since they were five years old, and now they're 20 or now they may be a store associate and they've been shopping there since five years old. Those are the people that, I think if they're representing the brand and we can educate them about our brand and what our values are and what we're all about, and they're selling now to people who this is their lifestyle, I think that's growing the roots. And so as much as we want to Try and bring and open the tent up to Western and opening in places again like soho and Detroit and in Orange County, California, et cetera. I want to make sure we're growing those roots at the same time so we don't just have a tree that's tipping over.
- [43:30]
B
You know, you're in a growth business and things are definitely moving in a great direction. What's a uncomfortable truth about your business right now that your team needs to hear?
- [43:44]
C
You know, in building a culture and what we're trying to do is build a team of leaders, like a whole building of them. It's not, you know, leadership I don't believe is a position. I think it's a characteristic, an attitude. And I'm a big believer in a team rowing in the same direction. Very clear, aligned goals is incredibly powerful and just a competitive advantage. You may think you've got that going in a great direction, but. And as you start to scale and you add people, and if you're not incredibly diligent about the things that are important to create a culture, before you know it, it's sideways. And if you're putting up with a bad apple, that's managing up, that's throwing people under the bus, that's taking credit for other people's work, that's not taking accountability for things they should be, and you let that fester, you can go off the rails so quickly. And I think that we're in a great position to have a very collaborative team. And it's not that we don't have our issues, but we've got to make sure people are having hard, constructive conversations and not letting things fester. But to me, if we can keep all that going and we're solid on our strategy and what we need to execute, I think we can go a long way. But as an activist, Deckers once told me at lunch his father was a big businessman. And he said, my dad used to always say business isn't rocket science, but managing people is. And I think there's a little bit of truth to that. But I need everybody in on this. And it can't just be me dictating this is what we're going to go do. Because if you don't have the buy in or the right culture to really see it through. So to me, I think that's the thing I try and focus on. We've got a lot of creative people, great product people, and so I don't really worry about are we going to miss the season because we didn't come up with the Right. Product. That kind of stuff doesn't keep me up at night.
- [45:55]
D
Yeah.
- [45:55]
B
You know, when you, when you look at your business, David, how much of, how much of a role is AI playing in it now or what do you see happening there?
- [46:05]
C
So what we're doing first is we're arming the entire team with the tools, right? So they have a license to, you know, an enterprise version of whatever tool they need, whether it's ChatGPT or Claude, et cetera. We've set up, we hired a person who's a very good prompt engineer to kind of work with people on how to, okay, I'm stuck. How can I get this tool further to do what I'm trying to get it to do? So we're trying to help people. We've set up a Slack channel, which is kind of an AI recognition channel where people get quick wins and like, look what I just built. And I save me and my team 10 hours a week that we no longer have to do this or that. So there's a lot of just getting buy in and people understanding that you gotta dive in here and use these tools. Don't be scared of them, don't be, you know, like, if I get good at this, they're gonna just get rid of me. Cause I think there's other things there that we can redeploy people to things that we've said no to because we just don't have the horsepower to do it. That we might be able to greenlight now more quickly by freeing up people instead of doing mundane type work.
- [47:19]
B
How are you using AI personally to, to develop your leadership skills?
- [47:26]
C
I'll tinker with it quite a bit just on pushing on collaboration ideas, partnership ideas, things like that. I mean, I'm not exactly a guru, but it's amazing what it can do. I'm not trying to build myself dashboards and things like that. For example, our head of ecom, we had in our budget a million dollars for a certain technology to kind of move some. We've got a ton of data in a very clean data warehouse. But now how do we mine that data to really make, to get answers to questions that if we had those answers, we could make much better decisions and much better capital allocation type decisions and optimizing how we're Mark, you know, spending on marketing, those types of things. She spent three hours on a Saturday with Claude and came back on Monday and said, take that million out of the budget. We don't need that. I've already developed what I need now. And she'll keep iterating on it. But we are seeing those kinds of moves pretty quickly here and I do feel like we're agile enough and the collaboration and teamwork that I mentioned. Very few big things can happen in an organization that aren't where you're not dependent upon some cross functional partner. It's just, you know, it's hard to move the needle on. You're in a silo and you're really pushing something forward. And so I think the ability to kind of work collectively with the teams on what are these things we can be building together that really leapfrog and that's kind of what I'm excited about. We're starting to see a lot of interesting data that, you know, when you look at like when we put a store in a given msa, what, what happens, you know, and, and yeah, you can see E comm. What happens to that business and, but to truly be able to kind of connect the dots and see what decisions are being made and, and the impact of them, I think is going to be fascinating.
- [49:32]
B
Well, this, this conversation has been fascinating and fun and, and I'd like to have a little fun with you with, with, with my lightning round of questions. David, you know, are you ready for this?
- [49:43]
C
I'm not sure, but fire away. All right.
- [49:45]
B
The three words that best describe you,
- [49:47]
C
I would say integrity, loyalty and curiosity.
- [49:52]
B
If you could be one person for a day besides yourself, who would it be?
- [49:56]
C
Maybe Abraham Lincoln.
- [49:58]
B
Your biggest pet peeve?
- [50:00]
C
Arrogance.
- [50:01]
B
Who would play you in a movie?
- [50:03]
C
Maybe Kevin Costner or Robert Duvall.
- [50:06]
B
What's your favorite Cajun menu item?
- [50:10]
C
That's a good one. I would say turtle soup.
- [50:16]
B
That's great. I love that. Are you more of a boots on the ranch kind of guy or boots with the suit kind of guy?
- [50:24]
C
I like to be both. I would say that people probably would say boots and suits, but how many
- [50:29]
B
pair of boots do you have?
- [50:31]
C
About 52.
- [50:33]
B
About 52 to be precise.
- [50:35]
C
Yeah.
- [50:36]
B
Okay. As a former lawyer, what's something most people in your mind misunderstand about lawyers?
- [50:44]
C
I think their judgment. I think lawyers tend to. Yeah, I mean, I think judgment is something that's truly helped me in my career. And I think a lot of lawyers that are good have good judgment.
- [50:56]
B
What's something you've been curious about lately that has absolutely nothing to do with your business?
- [51:02]
C
I'd say hockey. Not only for the Team usa, but my new son in law is a hockey player. And so growing up in the south, it's a sport I've Never really followed. And now my wife and I are watching hockey four times a week.
- [51:18]
B
The one thing you do just for
- [51:20]
C
you, I would say swim, swimming, exercise.
- [51:24]
B
Besides your family and friends, what's your most prized possession?
- [51:29]
C
Boy, I'd say gratitude, maybe. I don't know if it's a material possession, I'd say gratitude. I'm grateful for where I am. And, yeah.
- [51:37]
B
If I turned on the radio in your car, what would I hear?
- [51:41]
C
Well, these days, country music.
- [51:43]
B
What's something about you? Few people would know.
- [51:46]
C
Maybe competitive.
- [51:48]
B
What's one of your daily rituals? Something that you never miss?
- [51:53]
C
I would say exercise of some sort.
- [51:56]
B
All right, we're out of the lightning round. And, you know, I like your choice of actors that are going to play you. I think that's great. Nobody's ever accused you of having a big ego, have they? No, I know that. I can tell. What's the absolute most exciting thing that you just are so pumped up about what's going on in your company right now?
- [52:18]
C
Just our momentum. And I think a lot of irons in the fire that are. I like to think about, you know, returns on investment that are either going to be near term or something's going to take a little longer term. You know, right now, I think we have a very good mix of things that are going to start rearing their head in two years, some are going to start rearing their heads in six months. So I like the. Just the capital investments we're making and the returns I think we're going to see on it. I just. I think that the way in which the team has, you know, kind of made decisions on sequencing things, I think is we're going to really see pay off in the next few years.
- [53:04]
B
You know, you mentioned earlier that you're, you know, 60 or so, you know, and your founder, I think, is in his 40s.
- [53:11]
C
You know, he's 37 or 38, I think.
- [53:14]
B
Okay, 37, 38. Okay. You know,
- [53:18]
C
his dad and I are good friends, put it that way.
- [53:22]
B
Well, how do you. How have you made that work? I mean, that's a big. You know, you got a lot more seniority than him. He started the company. How do you, you know, what advice can you give to people on how to make it work with a founder? Because a lot of people work for founders, and it just doesn't work out.
- [53:40]
C
Yeah, I. I think, first of all, my practice of law, I dealt with a lot of founders and entrepreneurs. So I think, you know, PhD candidates at whatever or, you know, doctorate. So I I've, I've dealt with a lot of founders and, but again, I think Paul and I have a, a solid relationship where I'll lean on him on stuff and he trusts me on stuff. And I, I, I think I took the time to earn his trust. You know, if I had come in and just said, you know, you got to move out of my way and let me do this and that, that would not have been the right approach. And I think he respects that. And I think over time, I did earn his trust. And there's always a why behind what we're trying to accomplish. And I felt like if I brought him along just like the rest of the team, frankly, that we would be in a good situation. And he is a very, very sharp guy, I can tell you. And I mentioned his vision, but incredibly bright guy. And so he challenges me too, you know, and he'll ask four deep questions, and if you don't have the answer, so good luck with earning his trust. But so I learn a lot from him as well.
- [54:54]
B
So, last question here, David. What's one piece of advice you'd give to anyone who wants to be a better leader?
- [55:02]
C
I think for me, what has worked and what I didn't realize until later in my career was I'd rather somebody be a learn it all than a know it all. And I, I think you don't ever have to worry about not having the answers to every question. Nobody is going to be able to know. Soup to nuts. Here's what you need to do across a brand, across a company, you know, so you don't need to know it all now. You need to go find out the answers to things or your best guess at what that answer may be. But I think I mentioned earlier about insecurities. I feel like if I had known that and I didn't have to kind of fake my way through a lot of things, which comes with a lot of anxiety and that. But if you just kind of took comfort in the fact that I don't know the answer to that, but I'm going to go find it out and find it out quickly, and I'll come back to you. That answer is fine as long as you go back to him.
- [55:59]
B
Yeah. And building on that, you know, curiosity has to be a trait if you're
- [56:05]
D
going to be a learn it all.
- [56:06]
B
You know, do you have one question you ask that you find to be the most powerful question you use in your repertoire?
- [56:12]
C
I'm more under trying to understand the person I'm dealing with before I can even know what that question is. So it's a little bit of a rapport issue and just sort of getting comfortable with somebody and then seeing where they may be paranoid about something, I may hit a nerve too early or, you know, I don't think there's one question that I like in every interview. This is a question I'm going to ask them to see how they answer it. I kind of, I'm a little more of a gut feel than that, I guess.
- [56:40]
B
Is that gut? Does that come from experience, or is that something that you've always had?
- [56:47]
C
I think probably a little of both. I think it certainly comes from experience and seeing. I think my judgment's pretty solid, and I think I've got a good feel for people and issues, and I can tell pretty quickly if we bring somebody on board how they're going to fit within the team, and if they don't. I'm also a big believer in getting them on the bus and getting them off the bus if we need to. Also a big believer just again, because in getting athletes on the field. And we'll figure out a the place to put them. I mean, I'll take a guy and gal willing to work hard and intellectual curiosity all day long. We can usually do pretty well with that type of characteristic. And we'll figure out where to put them on the field.
- [57:36]
D
Yeah, great.
- [57:37]
B
Great. Well, thank you very much, David. It's been a great conversation, and I'm going to have to now go out and get a pair of your boots.
- [57:45]
C
Yeah, See, we got you into the brand. Now we got to kick you over the ledge and a pair of cowboy boots. Well, thank you for having me, David. I, I, I love your podcast. I've listened to several of them and so it's, it's a great one, and I appreciate having the honor to be on it.
- [57:59]
B
Yeah. Well, it's my honor to interview you, so thank you.
- [58:14]
A
Thank you. All is right in the world. We are able to to proceed with this conversation, debriefing your conversation with the CEO of Tovas. Thank you so much, David. You have made the people very happy.
- [58:28]
D
Well, I enjoy doing that.
- [58:33]
A
Do you got boots on, too? Can you kick your feet up on the desk and just make it all come.
- [58:37]
D
I'm not going to go get my boots, but I have a pair.
- [58:42]
A
I love it. I know you have a pair because you actually went to.
- [58:44]
D
Let's get going, darling. Let's go.
- [58:48]
A
I know you have a pair of boots, David, because you actually went to a Toccova store to Prepare for your conversation with David Lafitte.
- [58:55]
D
Yes. Yes, I did. I bought T shirts, I bought belts, I bought everything. And I got a free drink while I was there.
- [59:02]
A
Well, David, how's the quality of all the stuff that you bought?
- [59:05]
B
Very, very good.
- [59:07]
D
It better be because it wasn't cheap.
- [59:11]
A
Well, I can't wait to debrief some of the concepts that you and David talked about in this conversation. And it's just really, really fantastic that on. Giddy up and let's go.
- [59:22]
D
Let's go, David.
- [59:23]
A
The first concept is this idea of radical hospitality. Now to Covis is all in on this idea of radical hospitality all the way from their frontline employees in their stores down to the folks in the factory helping them manufacture their products. They've got free drinks, like you said, and personalization and shoe shines in their stores and all the this store space that really makes you want to linger in this radical hospitality. Now, that phrase, radical hospitality. Radical is a powerful word. So I'm curious just what you. What your take is on that concept.
- [59:55]
D
I love radical hospitality because what does radical mean? It means be radical. You know, it's like, you know, not. It's not like, oh, let's be hospitable.
- [60:04]
B
You know, it's like we.
- [60:05]
D
We don't want to just be hospitable. We want to distinguish ourselves as hospitable. And, you know, it reminds me of the former CEO of Target who really put Target on the map, Bob Ulrich. He used to be on the Yum Brands board. He talked about how the great companies differentiate themselves in everything that they do. And that's really what Tocova's is really trying to do with their service proposition and even how they work with their. Their suppliers.
- [60:37]
B
And, you know, he said, exaggerate your
- [60:40]
D
differentiation in everything you do. That was basically a way to say radical. He said exaggerate. You know, for example, he always talked about how important it was for Target to have wide aisles. You know, the wide aisles were really a big feature of Target versus other retailers. And he said if it was up to him, he'd make them wider every year, you know, because he believed that was really powerful.
- [61:04]
B
So, you know, I think leaders should
- [61:06]
D
look for powerful words to really demonstrate what they want their people to do. That will drive differentiation and exaggerate the differentiation you're trying to drive in the marketplace.
- [61:18]
A
Well, that radical hospitality is serving them well as they grow and scale their company. Which brings me, David, to the next topic that I'd love your take on, which is this Idea of culture at science scale. And you can really tell that David is on high alert against complacency. And we all know how fast a culture can go sideways as you scale a business and grow it. What advice, David, can you give people for protecting that culture as your company grows at massive scale?
- [61:46]
D
First of all, make sure everybody knows what your culture is. You know, explain it in really simple terms and make everyone know and train everybody on the power of your. Your cultural behaviors and how that's going to result in great results. So make everyone know what you want to stand for and why it's important. That's important. And I think you have to train people on your culture so when you have new people come in, you have a. At yum, we had the yum experience where we had two days of indoctrination on what our culture was and why. And I think that's very important. And then measure it. Anything that's important, you measure. So we always measured our culture in our restaurants, in our regions, and in our divisions, in our headquarters. How well are we really walking the talk on our cultural behaviors? I think that basically says a lot. But I tell you one thing that really drives your. Your culture and maintains it. Promote people who walk the talk on your culture. Because when people know that that's how you get promoted, you know, culture doesn't have a tendency to go away. And then I think in terms of complacency, which is one of the things that he was very careful on, is you got to continually be raising the bar. You're never satisfied. You got to have a healthy dissatisfaction with the status quo, and that comes from the leader. You know, you can't walk by mediocre performance. You can never walk by it. And so you gotta let people, you know what's good. And then when you see good, recognize the hell out of.
- [63:23]
A
Really is shocking to think about how many businesses are. How many huge businesses aren't telling people what their culture is. I mean, I feel like if you walked into the doors of a huge corporation somewhere and you asked any employee, you know, what is your culture? The number of people who aren't able to answer that question is kind of staggering. So, I mean, I love what you said, David. It's so simple. Make sure everyone knows what your culture is.
- [63:50]
D
You know, that's why there's so many toxic workplaces, you know, and the statistics are staggering as people. People don't know what the culture is. And the culture isn't lived out. And many times the culture is articulated, but it's on. It's on a laminated, you know, plaque that's in the corner office somewhere where that nobody really understands what it is. And, you know, I think as leaders, you have to bring your culture alive in the ways that. Ways that I talked about.
- [64:21]
A
Moving on to the final topic, David, that I love your thoughts on, David, is to COVIS. David is 50 years old, and he was a corporate lawyer for 25 years before making the move into the C suite for shoe and apparel companies at his age. Now, that's a big change relatively later in one's career. If someone is considering a career pivot like this and really wants to go from a functional expert to a general manager, what coaching would you give them?
- [64:51]
D
The first thing I'd say is you got to really be an avid learner of the business. You know, I've seen marketing people fall asleep as soon as people started talking about finance. I've seen finance people start to yawn as soon as they. The marketing person starts to talk. You gotta be an avid learner. You gotta care about the whole business. You gotta own the whole business, you know, so you gotta act like an owner. I think if you want to move into a general manager role, you gotta think like a general manager and you gotta show people that you care about the whole ball of wax, not just your piece of the pie. And I think that care is demonstrated by your ability to go out and learn the other functions. Learn. Learn enough to where you can lead other functions. You know, I always feel like you gotta make sure you don't have anything that's gonna derail you. If you're a finance person and you don't really have an understanding of the customer, you better learn how to love customers. You know, if you're a supply chain expert and you have no interest in marketing, you better learn something. And so you gotta demonstrate a capability and a willingness and a huge desire to know and be able to lead the entire business. Not just what you. Just what you're accountable for.
- [66:16]
A
And David, how do you report back to your boss or to the person who would put you in that new role that you have gone out and done that learning? Because it's one thing to go do it, but how do you make sure the people, people that you're trying to keep informed of your. Of your activity, how do you make sure that they know that you've done that?
- [66:34]
D
They'll see it. They'll see it in your contribution to the business. Okay. You know, it reminds me of a great story I loved from John Wooden, and John Wooden thought recognition was really important, okay? And he felt that every time any one of his players threw a ball to somebody and helped somebody score a basketball, okay, they should, the, whoever scored that basket should acknowledge the person who, who either set the pick or, or through the pass or whatever that helped them make the basket. And he said, one of the players said to him one time, well, what if they're not watching, coach? And the coach said, oh, they'll be looking, okay? And I think the people that you work for, they're looking, they're looking at you all the time. They're not going to put you in a job unless you demonstrate you have the capability to take on more responsibility. So you got to show people that you really are interested in the total business. And I really believe acting like an owner and acting like someone who owns a total business is really critical for anybody who wants to be a general manager.
- [67:43]
A
David, as we wrap this episode up, what do you really want people to be thinking about as they try to apply some of these insights to their lives and to their leadership?
- [67:51]
D
Okay. If you've got something that's really important that you think is going to drive your business, exaggerate the differentiation. Be radical in the words that you choose. Number two, if you want to really make sure you have a powerful culture, take the time to seed it deep in all the ways that takes to make sure that people understand what the culture is and it stays alive. And then number three, if you want to be a general manager, you want to make a big career, pivot into something, something else. You better show a very active interest in the total business and on whatever function that you, you don't have a real knowledge in so that you at least get competent enough at it that you can, you can help, help lead it and coach it and, and, and, and, and be a powerful, powerful player that can make a difference in the business. Recognizing that your, your core function capability, you know, is always going to be your strong. You just got to make sure the other stuff is, is not something that will derail you.
- [68:48]
A
I love it. David. Well, thank you again so much for an excellent episode of How Leaders Lead. Thank you also to David Lafitte for your wonderful insights. And thank you, of course, to you, our listeners. Stay tuned for another episode of How Leaders Lead next Thursday, and we will see you soon.