3 More Questions (Ed Bastian) with David Novak and Koula Callahan

Summary

Podcast Summary: How Leaders Lead with David Novak

Episode: 3 More Questions (Ed Bastian) with David Novak and Koula Callahan

Date: May 12, 2025
Guests: David Novak (host), Koula Callahan (co-host)
Featured Guest in Previous Episode: Ed Bastian, CEO of Delta Airlines

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Episode Overview

This episode of How Leaders Lead features a “Three More Questions” segment, where David Novak and Koula Callahan dive deeper into leadership lessons inspired by David’s recent conversation with Ed Bastian, the CEO of Delta Airlines. The discussion explores Bastian's unique leadership approaches—including communication accessibility, bold decision-making during crisis, and maintaining resilience under personal and professional hardship.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. CEO Accessibility: Managing Direct Communication

[01:00–02:47]

• Topic: Ed Bastian responds personally to hundreds (if not thousands) of emails each day, making himself genuinely accessible to both employees and customers.

• David’s Insight:

  • “Every leader has to find their style and has to find what they can do to make themselves accessible... there’s no real formula to that other than the fact that you got to find a way to do it. Your organization must feel that their CEO is approachable and accessible and is listening to what they have to say.” – David Novak [01:31]
  • Novak emphasizes that while not every leader can or should do things exactly like Ed, being perceived as approachable and empathetic is vital.
  • Delta’s process involves not just Ed, but a systematic approach to responding to all customer notes—a key factor in their ongoing industry accolades.

• Memorable Moment:

  • “...he replies to all of them, sometimes so quickly that people think it's Ed's AI robot responding for him, but it's really just Ed.” – Koula Callahan [01:04]

• Extra Context:

  • Koula shares her personal connection to Delta, reinforcing why accessibility from leaders resonates with employees and loyal customers alike.

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2. Leading Through Crisis: Bold Convictions and Reinvention

[03:15–05:42]

• Topic: Ed Bastian’s pivotal leadership moment—leaving Delta in 2005, returning with strong conditions (including recommending bankruptcy as a strategic reset).

• Novak’s Key Lesson:

  • “The biggest thing you can learn from that experience is do the right thing and the right things will happen.” – David Novak [03:45]
  • Bastian’s insistence on doing what he felt was necessary, even when difficult or unpopular, set the conditions for Delta’s dramatic turnaround.
  • Novak lauds Bastian’s integrity: “Integrity is the gift you give yourself. So, you know, I think in his mind he was staying true to himself and... he couldn't be in the company if they weren't going to do what he thought was the right thing.” [04:13]

• Data-Driven Leadership:

  • “...he views data as power, and the data helps them satisfy their customers better... become the company that is winning in the marketplace.” – David Novak [05:04]
  • Ed’s analytical approach, grounding conviction in facts and metrics, is underscored as vital to convincing others to get on board with hard decisions.

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3. Enduring Hardship: Personal Resilience in Leadership

[05:42–08:01]

• Topic: Ed Bastian lost his mother one week before COVID devastated the airline industry—a period of simultaneous personal and professional crisis.

• Novak on Perseverance:

  • “You have to get back up on the horse, and you got to ride into town, do what you got to do, and then ride off into the sunset after you've done it... You just gotta pick yourself up and move on and do it as fast as you can.” – David Novak [06:09]
  • Novak draws upon his own experience, recording a podcast with Deion Sanders two weeks after losing his wife, to illustrate the expectation for leaders to show up despite adversity.

• Key Quote:

  • “People can be empathetic to your personal grief, and people can be empathetic to your professional challenge, but not really. They're looking for you to get back up on the horse, and if you're the leader, take them to where they need to go. That's just the way how it is. You don't get a lot of a grace period to do it.” – David Novak [07:23]

• Memorable Moment:

  • Koula’s recall of David’s vulnerable conversation with Deion Sanders, who gave supportive coaching after his wife’s death, highlighting the power of openness and mentorship even in hardship.
  • “That moment of vulnerability was so special. And I really appreciated Dion just leaning in.” – Koula Callahan [08:16]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Integrity is the gift you give yourself.” – David Novak [04:13]
• “Do the right thing and the right things will happen.” – David Novak [03:45]
• “He replies to all of them... sometimes so quickly that people think it's Ed's AI robot responding for him, but it's really just Ed.” – Koula Callahan [01:04]
• “You know, he views data as power.” – David Novak [05:04]
• “You have to get back up on the horse... and do it as fast as you can.” – David Novak [06:09]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Ed Bastian’s Email Accessibility: [01:00–02:47]
• Crisis Leadership & Bankruptcy Decision: [03:15–05:42]
• Resilience After Personal Loss/COVID: [05:42–08:01]
• Deion Sanders Coaching & Vulnerability: [08:16–08:33]

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Tone & Style

David Novak and Koula Callahan maintain a candid, conversational, yet insightful tone—balancing admiration for their guest’s achievements with honest personal reflections and practical advice for aspiring leaders.

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Conclusion

This “Three More Questions” episode provides actionable leadership lessons from Ed Bastian's tenure at Delta, as unpacked by two seasoned leadership thinkers. Listeners are left with clear reminders: champion accessibility in your own style, make the bold and right decisions (especially during crisis), back your convictions with data, and, above all, show resilience—because as a leader, people are always looking for you to get back up and show the way forward.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to How Leaders Lead. It is time for another edition of Three More Questions with David Novak. David, I am so excited about this episode of Three More Questions because we're talking about your conversation with Ed Bastian, who is the CEO of none other than Delta Airlines. This feels like a big, huge interview for us. It's so good.

[B]

Well, we have big, huge guests all the time. Koolid. I wouldn't be that excited about it. Although Ed is a great guy, I.

[A]

Think I feel this way because. Because I fly Delta Airlines all the time, and it's the only airline I have status on, so I feel like a personal connection to Ed.

[B]

All right, I get it. And I'm not cutting on Ed. He's fantastic. But come on, you know, that's all we do is get big, huge guests on this show.

[A]

Okay, you make a good point. You make a good point.

[B]

All right, all right.

[A]

Not arguing with that, David. I've got three, if I do say so myself, pretty great questions lined up for you today, so.

[B]

Okay, let's fire away then.

[A]

Question number one. Ed said that he gets hundreds, if not thousands of emails every day, and I was honestly a bit surprised to hear that he replies to all of them, sometimes so quickly that the person on the other end of receiving the email thinks that it's Ed's AI robot responding for him, but it's really just Ed. Now, David, that level of accessibility is rare for a CEO to offer their employees and or their customers. Do you think leaders need to be that available to be effective, or is there a line?

[B]

I think every leader has to find their style and has to find what they can do to make themselves accessible to their people and their customers. And there's no real formula to that other than the fact that you got to find a way to do it. Your organization must feel that their CEO is approachable and accessible and is listening to what they have to say. And I think customers, in reality, when they see the way you respond as a brand, they've got to feel that you're responding to them and know how they feel and are empathetic to their needs and constantly adjusting to really make sure that your brand satisfies them. So there's no formula to it, but I think it's important that you find your way to do it. Now, Ed has this email process that he uses, and he answers most those. A lot of those emails himself, but he did mention in the interview that he had people that helped him. Okay. That also is part of the Delta Airlines process, which he's the leader of which is to, you know, listen to every note that they get from their customers, which I think is fantastic for them. And it works. Obviously, they continually win Best Airline of the Year award. He's continually acknowledged for being a great CEO. So it's obviously working for Ed and Delta Airlines.

[A]

It certainly is. He just got named one of Time magazine's 100 Most Influential People alongside none other than Snoop Dogg, which is hilarious. But in the airline industry, Ed talks about it a lot. I mean, it's brutal industry, it's very hard. And so the thing that sets them apart is their people and how they treat them. So I think that Ed and his team have leveraged technology in a way that makes his accessibility somewhat scalable.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

[A]

Question number two. Ed left Delta back in 2005, and shortly after that, the CEO at the time asked him to come back. And Ed said he would come back if a number of his requests were met, one of which was a recommendation to file for bankruptcy, not just to save Delta, but to fundamentally reset the business. David, that's a pretty bold ask. What can other leaders learn from how Ed navigated that moment and really helped reinvent Delta?

[B]

The biggest thing you can learn from that experience is do the right thing and the right things will happen. And in this particular case, Ed was passionate about the need that the company to basically reset itself through bankruptcy and felt it was the only way they could come out on the other side and win. And yes, it was painful and it was tough, but, you know, not everybody agreed at the time. And, you know, he felt like he couldn't really support an agenda that was anything other than that. And I think integrity is the gift you give yourself. So, you know, I think in his mind he was staying true to himself and he was giving himself that gift that he couldn't be in the company if they weren't going to do what he thought was the right thing. And he was strong enough and tough minded enough to deal with the challenge of bankruptcy and help Delta get set up for the future that they're now having, which is pretty glorious.

[A]

That is pretty glorious. The thing that really stands out to me about that is just the conviction that Ed had not only in himself and his ability to lead the company, but also he's an analytical guy by nature. And so to back that conviction up with data and facts and metrics that help you convince other people that though this might seem drastic, I believe it's the right thing is part of what I feel like made him so successful.

[B]

Yeah, I love his whole point of view on data. You know, he views data as power, and the data helps them satisfy their customers better. It helps them understand where they stand versus competition. It helps them with their benchmarking. It helps them, you know, become the company that is winning in the marketplace. So, you know, where some people might poo poo data and its importance, you know, he makes no bones about it. This is something that drives him, drives Delta, and drives the performance that they are getting for their airline. So I think, once again, that's an example of him. Him knowing what makes Delta tick, what makes him tick, and staying true to it.

[A]

Question number three. One week before COVID rocked the world and tanked the airline industry, Ed unexpectedly lost his mother. So not only was he facing this intense kind of personal grief, he also had to lead a company of 100,000 employees through a time when their revenue was zero. David, what would you say to leaders who might be facing unthinkable hardship like this about how to keep going when it all just feels like too much?

[B]

I think it's such a great question that I don't think there's an easy answer to, because the personal grief that you go through, the professional hardships are always going to vary. But I think you have to get back up on the horse, and you got to ride into town, do what you got to do, and then ride off into the sunset after you've done it. And, you know, you can't do that by just wallowing in your grief and complaining about or wishing the professional situation was better. You just gotta pick yourself up and move on and do it as fast as you can. Now, he said that he took some time to go through that period of wallowing through the grief and saying, you know, why me? And whatever. But he was tough enough and. And strong enough and knew that the organization needed them enough that he didn't have any choice other than to pick himself up and move on. And that's what I think you have to do in your own way as you go forward, because you know what? People can be empathetic to your personal grief, and people can be empathetic to your professional challenge, but not really. They're looking for you to get back up on the horse, and if you're the leader, take them to where they need to go. That's just the way how it is. You don't get a lot of a grace period to do it. I remember doing this podcast, you know, two weeks after my wife died and Deion Sanders was. I had this podcast. Well, you know, I've been wanting to get Deion Sanders for a long time. I didn't know if we would get to do the podcast with Deion Sanders if I canceled. And we had a great podcast. It's one of my favorites. But one of the things he said is that he really admired the fact that I showed up and that I didn't cancel. I'm not patting myself on the back on that. I'm just saying I think that's the way how people look at you. They're looking for you to get back up. They're looking for you to show up. So you better do it.

[A]

Especially when you're the leader of a gigantic company like Delta.

[B]

Yeah. And the leader of this incredible podcast called How Leaders Lead.

[A]

That's correct, David Novak. Especially when you're in that role.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

I love it. That Dion episode is so, so good. And I love the little. The coaching that he gives you at the end of that episode. I mean, you straight up asked him, hey, what would you say to me on learning how to be without my wife? And I think that moment of vulnerability was so special. And I really appreciated Dion just leaning in.

[B]

No, it was great. It was very helpful to me too. So I'm glad I did the podcast.

[A]

Well, David, thank you so much. That does it for this episode of three more questions. Thank you so much for tuning in to How Leaders Lead. We're on a mission to make the world a better place by developing better leaders. And if you carve out a little time with us each and every week, we'll help you build the confidence you need to lead well.

[B]

And coming up next on How Leaders Lead is my conversation with Andy Jassy, the CEO of Amazon. And you will see why he's the leader that should be leading that great company.