← How to Be a Better Human
How to Be a Better Human
Are you feeling emotionally stuck? Here’s how to get past it (w/ Yowei Shaw)
00:41:23
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- [00:00]
Chris Duffy
This podcast is brought to you by Wise, the app for international people using money around the globe. With the Wise account, you can send, spend and receive in over 40 currencies with no markups and no hidden fees. Whether you're sending pounds across the pond, spending rials in Rio, or getting paid in dollars for your side gig, you'll get the mid market exchange rate on every transaction. Plus most transfers arrive in less than 20 seconds. Join 15 million customers internationally. Be smart, Get Wise Download the Wise app today or visit wise.com Ts and Cs apply with no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking. With Capital One, if he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends it's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. What's in your wallet terms apply see capitalone.com bank capital1NA member FDIC. This is how to be a better human I'm your host Chris Duffy. Today's guest Yow Wei Sha is one of the most respected writers, producers and hosts in audio. I feel really confident saying that. But all of her talents and abilities and accomplishments and accolades, all of that couldn't help her from losing her job at NPR's Invisibilia. And here's a clip of Yowei talking about how it felt to lose that gig.
- [01:34]
Yowei Sha
I'd been with Invisibilia for seven years, worked my way up from producer who did admin to reporter producer to senior reporter producer to co host. I felt really lucky to get paid to do the thing. I loved making stories about ideas and emotions, stories that I hope helped our listeners understand how to navigate the world. I love my team. I love my job. So I knew that getting laid off was going to hurt, but I was not prepared for how much it hurt and how long the hurt lasted. I was not prepared for how the layoff turned me into someone I didn't recognize. I mean, objectively, I knew I had it about as good as it gets. I got severance. I had savings. I didn't have kids. I had a partner. I I had parents I could rely on if things got really bad. And I knew the layoff wasn't about me. NPR had made a strategic shift, and shows like mine weren't part of the new strategy. They specifically told me it was a business decision and had nothing to do with my performance. So why did I keep cycling through old mistakes, wondering what I could have done differently? Why did it feel like NPR was rejecting everything about me? Why did I want to hide from everyone? Why was my self worth on the floor? And here was the difficult part. No one in my life had been laid off before, so while my friends and family tried to be supportive, they all had trouble understanding exactly what I was going through, which made it hard for them to give me the advice and comfort I needed. I just felt really alone. And that's where my new show comes in.
- [03:15]
Chris Duffy
Yowei's new show became Proxy, a groundbreaking podcast where Yowei practices what she calls emotional investigative journalism. She tries to get to the bottom of how we feel about a situation and why. On Proxy, guests talk through their emotional conundrums and Yohei finds them the perfect stranger to talk to, the person who can help them get less stuck. Today on our show, Yohei is going to talk to us about the power of conversations, about what it means to investigate our emotions, and about how radical a change it can make to realize that we are never the only one going through something. We're going to get into all that and so much more after this quick break. This episode is sponsored by Quints. I've been trying to be more intentional about what I wear and I'm leaning into pieces that feel easy and comfortable but still put together. Quince has been my go to for this. I don't have time to overthink my outfit for the day, so I am happy to have received their organic cotton camp shirt and chino shorts which are actually so comfortable and still look presentable. They have all the perfect wardrobe staples for springtime 100% European linen shorts, cotton tees and lightweight pants that are breathable and make you look clean and polished. Extra everything is priced 50 to 80% less than you'd find at similar brands because Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen so you can get premium materials without the markup. Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head to quints.com human for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too, that is. Q-U-I-N-C-E.com human for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com Humid this episode is sponsored by Omaha Steaks. I usually just buy my dinner proteins from the grocery store meat aisle. I figured I'd have to settle for a bland burger if I didn't want to go out to a nice steakhouse every night, but that was before trying Omaha Steaks. I recently tried their Air Chilled chicken breasts and let me tell you, I could taste the difference. Juicy, fresh, flavorful and with the convenience of a frozen meal. That's because Omaha Steak's unmatched selection of USDA certified steaks, chicken and more are frozen at their moment of peak flavor, texture and quality. So you can have that delicious, fresh tasting dish delivered right to your door for whenever you need a convenient meal. And with their risk free 100% satisfaction guarantee, you can order with complete confidence, taste the Omaha Steaks difference and never settle for grocery proteins again. Get flavorful high quality proteins delivered by visiting OmahaSteaks.com/$35 off when you use promo code human at checkout, that's OmahaSteaks.com code human terms apply C Site for Details this episode is brought to you by Shopify. When you first start your own business, every decision can feel super overwhelming. Your to do list is growing each day with new tasks. Finding the right tool that not only helps you out, but simplifies everything can be a game changer. And for millions of businesses, that tool is Shopify. Shopify is the e commerce platform behind businesses around the world, from household names like Heinz and Mattel to brands just getting started. If your brand isn't well known yet, Shopify helps you find your customers with easy to run email and social media campaigns. And if you get stuck, Shopify's team is always around to share advice with their 24. 7 customer support service. Start your business today with the industry's best business partner, Shopify, and start hearing. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com betterhuman go to shopify.com betterhuman that's shopify.com betterhuman. And we are back. We're talking with Yowei Shah today about how to understand our emotional conundrums and why we're never the only one going through something.
- [07:22]
Yowei Sha
Hi, I'm Yowei Shah and I am an emotional investigative journalist.
- [07:27]
Chris Duffy
Let's start with what is an emotional investigative journalist?
- [07:31]
Yowei Sha
So I think of myself as an investigative journalist, but the thing I'm investigating is not politics or corruption. It's feelings. So someone comes to me with an emotional mystery like how is it that I can't forgive my mom even though I really want to? Or why do I as an introvert, dread hanging out with my extroverted friends? Then I as the reporter, use my skills to try to find an Answer. I look to research from sociology, psychology. I talk to practitioners, but probably the most important source is usually another human being that's just been through the same thing and lived to tell the tale. I think of myself like on the emotions beat.
- [08:19]
Chris Duffy
I love that description. I also love your show, Proxy. I think it is so interesting and different, and I think one of the things that is cool about it is you're investigating emotions, but you're not trying to do therapy. And.
- [08:33]
Yowei Sha
No, no, that is an important disclaimer. Thank you for saying that.
- [08:36]
Chris Duffy
Yeah.
- [08:37]
Yowei Sha
And I think I am not a mental health professional. It is not therapy. We're not trying to fix anyone.
- [08:43]
Chris Duffy
Well, the other thing, though, that I think is so interesting about the conversations that happen on the show is a lot of times it is people working through something that has to do with someone else, often an important person in their life, but they're not putting it on that person. Instead, it's the person understanding by someone who is not in their life what they actually feel more deeply.
- [09:08]
Yowei Sha
Yeah. Sometimes I think a stranger outside of your direct situation can help you see the situation more clearly and also help you hear what they have to say with less defensiveness because they don't have, like, all the baggage that your actual person does.
- [09:30]
Chris Duffy
I have two things that I wanted to ask you about. One is kind of like a headier, philosophical, personal thing, and then the other is just a really practical one, which is when I was thinking about my own version of proxy. Right.
- [09:43]
Yowei Sha
I mean, do you have a niche conundrum? Well, I don't think it'd like investigated by proxy.
- [09:47]
Chris Duffy
I don't think it's niche, but I want to share this thing with you to kind of hear how you would think it through. I had a really close friend, and we are no longer friends. And there are a lot of reasons for that. And I have unpacked them in therapy and gone to it, you know, discussed it many times. And it's been several years, and I still feel this lingering openness and sadness that this person is not in my life anymore. And I think part of it is, you know, we have a lot of structure for a breakup that is romantic. And I just don't have that much structure for a friend where you are no longer together. And that's something that I struggle with, and I don't really have the answers to. But I wonder, like, talking to someone else who had been through that exact same thing. Right. Maybe that would be helpful in some way. And so I'm just curious, your initial reactions to My specific experience, I would
- [10:45]
Yowei Sha
ask you a lot more questions about what went down in their friendship because I think that it would be important to know, was it a ghosting situation? Was it, like, a betrayal? Like, I would want to know, like, exactly what happened, what kind of thing broke it up. And then I would try to look for a proxy. I think on the other side, I would probably go looking for someone who could stand in for your friend. But it would need to be people who are, like, interested in the other perspective. Like, it can't just be, like, a proxy who's like, chris is a terrible person. And I'm. He's like, I don't ever want to talk to him again. I will never heal from. Like, he's a terrible person. He shows me that the world is, like, a terrible place, you know? Like, it needs to be someone who's, like, interested in, like, what went down. And, like, maybe they don't want to reconcile with the friend, but they need closure. And they're not. They don't just have, like, a black and white way of thinking about it. Then, like, I might go to a researcher who has studied friend breakups and has, like, a lot of insights to share that could be helpful to you. And like, any listener going through a friend breakup who's also. I mean, this is like, the ideal. Who's also gone through friend breakups themselves. Whenever we turn to a researcher, we really want them to have lived experience, too.
- [12:17]
Chris Duffy
It's cool. It's really cool to hear you think it through. One of the episodes you recommend people start with if they're just new to proxy, is called bisexual wife guy. And it's this very sweet man who has separated from his wife because she came out and understood her sexuality in a different way, and they separated. And he's trying to process that, but he doesn't want to process it through her. He doesn't feel like it's appropriate. And so he gets to have this conversation with someone who he's never met before but who was in a similar situation.
- [12:45]
Yowei Sha
Yeah, that was my old boss. That was like the rare instance where we get an email from a listener, and I know exactly who the proxy is going to be because usually it takes a lot longer to find the proxy. Yeah, that was a really interesting episode because it felt like I hadn't realized before that proxy conversation how meaningful the process could be for the proxy as well. It's like this reciprocal process, you know? So, like, George has questions he wants to ask of his ex wife that he can't that he's going to ask Hannah the. The proxy. And then Hannah never got to have the conversation with her ex husband, and so she got to ask him all these questions and also say these things that she never got to say to her ex. So that was like a real, I don't know, like, magical moment where I was like, oh, this is. This is pretty smart, this proxy idea. It's harder than I even planned.
- [13:52]
Chris Duffy
I totally agree. And I think, you know, it makes me think about this idea, which is that, you know, investigative journalism is about finding the truth, like an objective truth. And a lot of these conversations that you are now doing are about emotional truth, right? Like, can you give us a little bit about how you think about truth and emotional truth and objective truth, whatever that might be?
- [14:16]
Yowei Sha
I think that emotional truth tends to get a bad rap these days because people are like, well, that's not factual. That's just how you feel about the situation. You know, the story your nervous system is telling about what happened. But I think we know by now emotional truth drives a huge amount of human behavior. There's a bunch of research that actually shows that once your brain comes up with an emotional story of what happened, your brain's really good at discounting any evidence that doesn't conform to that story. So when people are arguing about the facts, often what they're fighting about is the emotional truth of the event. And so that's why on proxy, I really wanted to take emotional truth very seriously. And instead of, you know, arguing with somebody's emotional truth, we find a proxy who can help you understand the emotional reality of the situation. For example, we did this episode about a mom whose kids had cut her off and she didn't understand why. And instead of trying to investigate the facts of the estrangement, we paired her with a daughter who had cut off her own parents. And I think hearing that perspective from someone who wasn't her own kid, accusing her of being a bad mom, helped her be less defensive and, you know, be open to hearing that emotional perspective, the emotional reality of what it's like to need to estrange from your own parents. And this is where the ethics policy comes in. So that's why whenever we're dealing with a conundrum or conflict that involves more than one person, we anonymize. Because, you know, that would be a problem if we weren't anonymizing people's, you know, details.
- [16:10]
Chris Duffy
I think it's important, too, to note that you have a lot of respect for, like, the idea that There are facts and reality. There's an emotional story, but there's also a factual story that's really important. I really love Proxy. I think it's so great. And when I listen to it, it is so nuanced and special. And I think if I just think about the idea without having listened to it, I have this kind of reflexive thing of like, but that's navel gazy. That's like, we're focus on the emotion. We get so stuck in our own feelings. We need to get outside of our head a lot. But what I realized listening to the show is so much of this is people feeling like they are the only ones who have experienced something, feeling really alone. And that your show in such a vital way breaks through that so that people understand that whatever they are experiencing, someone else has experienced something quite similar.
- [17:02]
Yowei Sha
My hot take is that I think we need more emotional investigative journalists because I think that if we paid more attention to the emotional dynamics beneath our problems. Not just personal, but, like political, social. Like, literally every problem, there's emotional dynamics going on. And there's like all these disciplines of scholars who study those emotional dynamics. There's like a whole sociology of emotions. There's like a science of emotions, there's history of feelings, and those scholars never get any play. So I just would like to make the point, like, I really respect traditional journalism, and obviously it's not a good time for journalists in general, But I would also like us to pay a little bit more attention to emotional dynamics when we're reporting on, like, hard fact news or whatever. If you are feeling alone with a problem and you're not talking to anyone about your problem, they then you are literally just tunneling, tunneling, tunneling into the same interpretation of your problem, and it's hard to break out. And that's why on practice, I'm trying to report on feelings, bring a different perspective where, you know, you can talk to a researcher who studied your issue and has, like, context to share, like, for why you're feeling so bad. So you're like, oh, I'm not such an alien. I don't have to blame myself. Or you can talk to people who've lived through the same thing. For an outside perspective. It's really just like, you know, taking the regular things we do as a journalist, talking to sources and just like, applying that to emotional conundrums. But I do think, like, if you're just kind of stuck looking at your own emotions and not sharing and not getting support and not talking to anyone else, I think it can be navel gazing and not super helpful.
- [19:03]
Chris Duffy
So in this podcast you're diving deep into a niche emotional problem someone's having and then you offer them this proxy just to step back for a second so that people, if you're not familiar, know you offer a proxy. So it's someone who has had a really similar experience and they're going to help guide a stranger through their conundrum that is related. So how do you think about the best way to find a proxy for someone? What's the, what's the process of discovering a proxy?
- [19:29]
Yowei Sha
Well, sometimes it just falls in my lap and I'm like, I know someone who exactly went through that. That never that only, that's only happened once though. I've only got lucky once.
- [19:38]
Chris Duffy
So sometime.
- [19:39]
Yowei Sha
Not sometime, yeah, sometime other than that, I really just rely on my usual tricks as a long form journalist. And I scour memoirs, I scour personal article, like personal essays, news articles. I do a lot of creative googling. I talk to researchers, practitioners. I just make a ton of calls and try to find people who are like in the ballpark. And then once I find those options, then I do a careful vetting process where, you know, we do a pre interview and I just like ask them a bunch of questions to see like, does their set of experiences line up enough emotionally and like fact patterny with our guest? And then I'm also like checking to see like are they asking me follow up questions like are they like giving, like how are they holding space in even this call with me? And that's usually a good indicator of like how they'll do in an actual proxy conversation. And then the other part is like just enthusiasm. Like sometimes I found someone who I think would be really, really great, but they just, they just don't get the idea or they're just too busy or like, you know, for any number of good reasons, they're not like jazzed about doing it. And I think it's really important for the proxy to actually want to get something out of this experience too, so that it actually feels reciprocal. Because at the end of the day, even when our proxy is like a therapist or like a researcher or like somebody with like professional expertise, not just lived experience, I want it to feel like a conversation between two peers. Like you just happen to sit at a bar next to someone who has like the exact right experience for the thing you're going through and then you just start talking. You know, it's not a workshop, it's not a training. It's not a coaching session.
- [21:44]
Chris Duffy
We're going to be right back with more from Yowei after this quick ad break. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. If you're a business owner, whether you own a restaurant, a dry cleaner, or perhaps you're a content creator or you know how crucial it is to have a fast and reliable Internet connection. From taking quick orders, running inventory and communicating with clients around the globe, businesses of all sizes rely on the power of the Internet to keep things running smoothly. Spectrum Business keeps millions of businesses around the globe connected with tailored connectivity solutions and packages built for your budget. Get access to speedy, dependable Internet service, advanced Wi Fi, and even phone, TV and mobile services, along with 24. 7 customer support to keep you up and running. So if you're ready to lock down a solid Internet connection for your business this year, visit spectrum.combusiness to learn more. Restrictions apply. Service not available in all areas. This episode is sponsored by Wayfair. With summer on the way, I'm looking forward to spending a lot more time outside with friends. But for the longest time, my outdoor space hasn't felt all that inviting. But I've been looking at a nice patio rug on Wayfair, and I feel like it's going to totally transform the vibe of my whole patio. It's amazing how far a little pop of color and something that I pick out and feels like me can go to make a space feel more inviting and personal. Wayfair makes it easy to find what you need all in one place, whether it's outdoor seating, appliances, rugs or decor. And they have options for every style and aesthetic to help make your space feel uniquely yours. And you can shop with Wayfair Verified, AKA your shortcut to the good stuff. Wayfair Verified means their team of product specialists vet everything by hand so you know you're getting a quality piece. Get prepped for patio season for way less. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W A Y-F A I-r.com Wayfair every style every Home Wayfair Every Style
- [23:43]
Yowei Sha
Every Home
- [23:47]
Chris Duffy
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- [24:34]
Yowei Sha
One day last March, I was sitting in my home office with my cat by my feet. I braced myself as I clicked open my work email. Ah, there it is. Honestly, I feel nothing. Okay, now the tears are coming.
- [25:05]
Chris Duffy
In one of your very first episodes, you talk about the. The pain and the stigma and the emotional rollercoaster ride of being laid off from your job, a job you really cared about at Invisibilia. I mean, you have, like, this incredible audio of you hearing that you're being laid off and you're crying and you're really distraught. I mean, this is. Being an audio journalist. You knew that this was an emotionally important moment, so you were recording yourself. But you talk about how there's one moment where your husband hears you find out that this project that you've been working on, that was like the big thing post layoff that mattered, that it got canceled. And you're wailing so loud that he runs in naked from the shower because he thinks something like, he thinks it's a disaster because he's never heard you like that. I have never been in that exact situation, but I had such a vivid memory of. In one of the hardest times in my life, I was applying for this job. I had written a packet to apply for last week Tonight with John Oliver as a writer. And I had worked so hard on these jokes and everything was going bad. And I had, like, a person on the inside who was recommending me. And I just felt like it's lined up for me to get this job. And I was so in my head, I had built this other future, right? And then I found out I didn't even get to the next round. I didn't even get to, like, the interview round. And I wept so unbelievably hard. And the thing that made me really understand that moment differently is you and your husband are talking about it and you say some version of that was the scaffolding that was holding everything else up. It wasn't really about this project. It was about the grief of losing your job and all the stress and everything else. And he gives the parallel of when he cried so deeply about an older cat being put down, when it was actually about his grandfather who he hadn't grieved. I just had never so clearly seen that experience of my own articulated. And I wasn't even a guest on the show. This is just as a listener. So I wonder if there's some way that people can really access deep understandings of themselves just through listening to other people talk about their issues.
- [27:15]
Yowei Sha
Thank you for sharing that. And I'm sorry you went through that team layoff not getting what you want. Solidarity. I'm holding.
- [27:24]
Chris Duffy
I mean, also, it's so funny because in retrospect I'm like, oh, no, you didn't get a job writing for an HBO show. So sad, Chris. It's like in the moment, it felt. It felt like life or death. And now I'm like, oh, yeah, that was not really about that really, was it?
- [27:38]
Yowei Sha
Yeah. I kind of feel similarly about my layoff now, now that I've healed well. So when I got laid off, I felt really bad. And then I felt really bad about feeling so bad because I was like, shouldn't I know better? Like, boo hoo. I lost this job. Like, I don't have kids. We got severance. We had a really good union contract. Like, I had about as good of a layoff as you could have. And I just, I felt embarrassed. I felt ashamed. Like the double whammy of the shame. And then when I started looking into like, the research around layoffs and like, some of the narratives we have about layoffs, it really made a lot of sense, like why I was feeling so bad. And it just like put. Took the pressure off. It made me feel less. It helped me stop blaming myself. The main thing I learned was talking to this sociologist, Hofer Sharon, who studies long term unemployment. And he talks about how our culture really personalizes work, you know, not just like through our identity, through the myth of meritocracy, but also our hiring system is very personalized. You know, it's all about like the interview and whether you're a good fit for the team. And so when you get laid off here, as opposed to like some other country where, you know, the culture and the hiring system is really like, it's much more bureaucratic. The interview doesn't really matter. It's really about checking boxes and it's more formulaic. Like in those places, people don't blame themselves as much when they get laid off. They're mad at the system. Whereas, like, in the U.S. like, it makes sense why we would blame ourselves and feel terrible for all of these reasons. That was really freeing, you know, to realize the context of what was happening and that I wasn't alone. So that's like the context piece, you know, which I think really helps. But then there's also the, like, listening to somebody else who has. Who has been through a similar thing tell their story. And I was noticing in these proxy conversations, there's like this moment of magic that happens in every proxy conversation that works where like, the two people really see each other and they hear each other. And then like after that moment, everything starts flowing. They trust each other. The guest is able to take an insight from the proxy. And when that moment doesn't happen, that moment of recognition, emotional recognition, then like, it's. It's not going to work. Like, the conversation is stilted. People don't trust each other, and then we have to find another proxy. And so that has really taught me, like, the importance of emotional recognition in like, the stories that we tell and the conversations that we're having with people. One of the reporting quests that I've been going on is like, so what is going on in these proxy conversations? Like, why did you, Chris, feel so viscerally seen in a situation that actually is not your exact situation? You know, like, what is that about? And so I've been like, reading a bunch, talking to like, researchers, and like there, it turns out there's like a few core emotional processes that happen in healing. Emotional healing. So one process is telling the story of what happened. So telling a coherent story in organizing all the like, fragmented bits and feelings you're having, just telling a coherent story about what happened helps you feel better. Having another person recognize your experience, that also helps. Hearing a new perspective that helps you reinterpret your experience, that's another thing that helps. So proxy conversations, I think they bring all three of those processes together. I think what's unique about the proxy conversations is that it's happening between two people who share the lived connection to the issue, which makes the recognition and perspective taking just like, you know, to the nth degree, like on steroids, you know, because it's like embodied perspective taking. And so I'm still trying to figure it out, honestly, but that's where I'm at so far.
- [32:24]
Chris Duffy
It's interesting to me because I've spent a lot of time both as a comedian and so professionally, but also personally thinking about humor. I wrote this book about humor, and one of the things that I always say about it is that when you laugh with someone else, you are so locked in. In that you both are in that same moment. It's really Present, but also, you know, they see that thing the way that I see it. I'm not the only one that sees it. And so often when we're laughing hard, we say something like, that's so true. Or like, oh, yeah, I never thought of it that way. But then the laughter means that there's this connection. And this is kind of, in some ways that same thing of, oh my gosh, they actually understand. I'm not the only one that sees it that way. So it's not necessarily resulting in laughter, but it is that same kind of a connection.
- [33:06]
Yowei Sha
It reminds me of this research finding I found in neuroscience where when you're listening to someone tell a story, your neural circuits get aligned when you're telling a joke. And I laugh because I see the world the same, like, I feel seen in the way you are observing the world or whatever. Like, I wonder if, like, that's also a moment of like, our brains being linked, you know, and like, seen. And like, I think that recognition is so, so important. And that's why, like, being alone with your feeling, that is, I think it's just really, it's dangerous, you know, and like, I think that's like the one thing that I have learned from doing this show is like, no matter how specific somebody's conundrum is, no matter how weird or, you know, niche they think it is, like, there is probably someone else out there who gets it and you don't have to feel so alone. You know, there's probably support groups. You don't have to just like, write into my show. I mean, please write into my show, that'd be great. But also there are support groups. There are all these support groups out there that I think proxy is sort of trading on the mechanics of why that works. We're just doing it in podcast form and I think that that is something people could try is going to a support group and sticking around, even if it is awkward, you know, for a while until you find someone, you know, you click with.
- [34:49]
Chris Duffy
It's interesting to think about what you do and what I do as podcasters because I think people often feel a very intimate connection. You know, people often call this like the parasocial relationship. Parasocial is often kind of thought of in a negative way. I wonder if there's a version of the proxy that is like the positive sort of parasocial, where you cannot necessarily have to have the one to one direct in person relationship and still get something out of emotionally connecting with this other person.
- [35:18]
Yowei Sha
I guess you could argue that it is a kind of parasocial relationship. But I guess since there's strangers meeting for the first time, maybe it's like a really fast parasocial relationship developed. Like.
- [35:36]
Chris Duffy
Yeah, yeah, yeah. A really fast real relationship.
- [35:38]
Yowei Sha
40 minutes. So when I started working on the show, a friend was like, oh, proxy conversations, you know, that's a thing in restorative justice. Right? There is a tradition in restorative justice where if the survivor victim and the offender don't want to like meet for that healing conversation, maybe because they're just like not ready to take accountability. Maybe because like the survivor feels like too trauma, like, feels like that would be too traumatizing to them. Maybe somebody's dead. Sometimes a proxy will be used, somebody who has like experienced the same harm either as like the victim or the offender. And so there's like this whole world of like proxy conversations that are really, really intense. So I talked to this woman the other day who'd experienced sexual harm and she couldn't talk to the, the person who did it because he wasn't willing to take accountability. So like she told me about this proxy conversation she had with this guy who committed a similar sexual harm. And like she says that like she got what she, like she got the apology she needed and like there was something really healing about just like hearing this person who didn't do the thing to her but take remorse and take accountability and say like, this should never have happened. I'm so sorry. It is a kind of parasocial relationship, but like she's getting to have a positive experience with the person with like a stand in that can like help rewrite her meaning of what happened, you know? Yeah, I don't know if it counts as parasocial, but it just made me think of that.
- [37:34]
Chris Duffy
I'm curious what you've learned about honesty and self awareness through this process. Because so much of what is required to have a conversation or to get useful advice or takeaways from someone else's experience is to actually understand your own experience and what you're feeling.
- [37:51]
Yowei Sha
I think what can be missing is like having outside perspectives that help you not just be self aware, but sort of like, I don't know what the word would be, but like more collectively aware of your situation, you know, like it's so easy to get stuck in your like one interpretation of what's going on and to feel like that's the only, that's the only thing. That's the only possibility. Most of the people that come to the show are like incredibly self aware. Already. So that's sort of like the baseline, but it's like, are you willing to consider other perspectives and integrate them into how you think about what's going on? I think that's. Not. Everyone's ready to make that jump, because that. I think that does take a level of humility and also, like, openness. Like, are you ready to, like, hear some things that might be challenging or might, you know, question the way that you're thinking about things and also might be helpful? You know, not everyone is ready to, like, consider new possibilities. And that's also something that we think about on the show when we vet people is like, have you already gotten, like, a bunch of resources? Are you seeing a therapist? I like to think of ourselves as, like, we're like, the third or fourth responders. You know, like, we're like, a year out after therapy thing happened.
- [39:21]
Chris Duffy
I think there's also, you know, a big piece in our culture that is. Does not want nuance. It does not want things to be messy or unresolved. Right? It wants clear, easy answers. It wants black and white. It wants. Here's these three simple tips that your doctor doesn't want you to know. To kill belly fat, right? Like, it's like that. That style of processing the world is really dominant. And I think when people are left with these lingering questions or the lingering uncertainties or unresolved pieces that there's no space for that.
- [39:59]
Yowei Sha
I like to think of what we're doing on the show is hopefully modeling a different way of connecting with other people and relating to your own stuff.
- [40:10]
Chris Duffy
Can you tell me a little bit more about that? Modeling a different way of connecting with people. How would you articulate that connection?
- [40:16]
Yowei Sha
Well, not blaming anyone, I think, is number one. I think that's, like, one of the first things that we look for when we're vetting guests is like, are you in a place where you're not blaming the other person for what happened? You understand that things are complicated and, like, they had probably a lot of. There's a lot of reasons that they did what they did, and you want to understand more. And I think that, like, uncertainty and humility and, like, openness and wanting to help other people is how I would. I feel like that's what I would like. That's what we're trying to model and being respectful, but also, like, real with each other. Like, that's something that I tell people. Like, you can push back in these proxy conversations. You can interrupt. You can challenge. You can be like, I don't actually Understand what you're saying. Like, can you make it clear to me, like. Or, like, I disagree, but, like, we're going to keep things respectful.
- [41:27]
Chris Duffy
It's interesting, you know, thinking about the arc of Proxy and what you've done and what you're continuing to do. You started with examining your own emotions and complicated ways of dealing with the grief and the uncertainty and the pain and the self reevaluation after a layoff. Did you feel like, oh, I am perfectly suited to unpack this, or did you feel the kind of, like, flailing, what am I doing? Or both or something totally different?
- [41:57]
Yowei Sha
Well, honestly, I've been relying on this trick of reporting on your feelings for years. Like, I was. Sorry, npr, that I was, like, healing on your dime. But, like, you know, I. A lot of the stories that I did at Invisibilia were, like, born out of personal conundrums, like, niche emotional conundrums that I could not get answers to from the people in my life because I felt alone with it. No one could relate. And also not from my therapist. You know, like, the therapist was helpful, but also, like, I was still. There's still an emotional puzzle that I needed to crack. And so I found the process of doing a story and talking to experts, looking for research to help explain the context of what I was going through and talking to other people who'd been through the same thing. Like, I was like, oh, every time I do this, by the end of the story, I magically feel better. And so I wanted to, like, give that to other people, because I was like, I think that there is, like, there is a hole here to be filled that people can avail themselves of using, you know, a microphone, using, like, research skills. And honestly, like, having the guise of, like, I'm a reporter, we're doing a podcast episode. Like, it helps sometimes to have a container like that to ask these questions that maybe you wouldn't normally ask or, you know. Yeah, to get this researcher to talk to when, like, you're a la. Like, when you're not a reporter. Like, I think of what we do on the show at the end of the day is, like, service journalism. Like, I think one of my kinks. Journalism kinks is probably, like, I like to be useful. Just, like, I want to help. And so I feel like, yeah, maybe we're, like, providing a service that is not being provided at the moment.
- [43:56]
Chris Duffy
It seems clear to me that you feel this real duty to the listener and to make sure that you are not misrepresenting or causing harm and I think that is a level of care that not many people bring or are even aware of. So I wonder if you can talk a little bit about that as the intersection with the service journalism.
- [44:20]
Yowei Sha
I mean, that might just be my anxiety talking. I mean like, as a reporter who like grew up at npr, that was the number one fear was like. Well, the number one thing that we were afraid of was fucking up, you know, like that's the number one fear is like getting something wrong, like you're reporting not being tight. And so I think that like my in just like my general anxiety like has kind of made me a better reporter. Just like, because I'm like, I really don't want to fuck things up and like I have fucked things up before and that really sucked. And you know, that's something that we talk about on the show is like every Proxy conversation is an experiment and we are always iterating and getting better because we're trying something new. And I also want to be really cautious about dealing with emotions. This is tricky territory. This is why we, we take on niche emotional conundrums. Not like serious, actively traumatic emotional conundrums. Because that's like a different show and that's for like a professional. I don't think we're well suited, well equipped to take those on. I don't know how you can be a journalist and not like have nightmares about fucking up. Like, I don't know, doesn't everyone, doesn't every journalist have those nightmares? And so I guess I'm like bringing that hardcore NPR ethos into like this new beat. And I understand that like we are charting the territory ourselves and I'm like pretty much a one woman shop and I don't have, you know, like we don't have a lot of resources and so that's why I'm trying to be as careful as we can be. But I'm sure we will get things wrong and we will learn from them. And that's like the process of being human and like that's okay. And I think our listeners will be okay with that if they, if they're fans of the show.
- [46:26]
Chris Duffy
Well, Yoheisha, thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you so much for the work that you do on Proxy and thanks for just this great conversation. I really appreciate making the time.
- [46:34]
Yowei Sha
Thank you for having me.
- [46:39]
Chris Duffy
That is it for today's episode of how to be a Better Human. Thank you so much to our guest, Yowei Shah. Check out her podcast Proxy. It is a fantastic show and I cannot recommend it more highly. A good place to start if you're looking for an episode to start is Mike Chooses the Wrong Life. It's about a comedian who can't stop wondering if he should have become a doctor instead. And it's about how we make peace with the lives we didn't choose. You can find Proxy wherever you listen to Podcasts and new episodes from their latest season are out right now. I'm your host Chris Duffy and my book Humor Me is out right now too. You can find more about my book, my live show dates, and all my other projects@chrisduffycomedy.com how to be a Better Human is put together by exactly the kind of team that you want investigating all of your emotional conundrums. On the TED side, we've got Daniela Balorizzo, Banban Chang, Michelle Quint, Chloe Shasha Brooks, Valentina Bohanini, Lainey Lott, Tanzika Singh Manivong, Antonio Ley, and Joseph de Bruyne. Brian Lasch put together the video, no Proxy needed and this episode was fact checked by Mateus Salas who investigates all claims, both emotional and factual. On the PRX side, all audio, both proximate and bygone, is handled by Morgan Flannery Norgill, Patrick Grant and Jocelyn Gonzalez. Thanks to you for listening. Please send this episode to a person you know or a stranger who seems like they would be relevant. We will be back next week with even more how to Be a Better Human. Until then, take care. With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to a assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends it's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com bank capital1NA member FDIC. You have the vision for your business. You have the plan and you just got handed a huge opportunity. But is your business connectivity reliable enough to make a move? Spectrum Business delivers fast, reliable Internet, phone, TV and mobile services. So you're always connected when it matters most. Get connectivity packages built for your business with savings that keep your budget in check and with fast, reliable Internet and 100% US based customer support, you'll stay connected and ready to bring your vision to life. Learn more@spectrum.com business restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas.
- [49:13]
Yowei Sha
This episode is brought to you by Choiceology, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Hosted by Katie Milkman, an award winning behavioral scientist and author of best selling book how to Change.
- [49:25]
Chris Duffy
Choiceology is a show about the psychology
- [49:27]
Yowei Sha
and economics behind our decisions.
- [49:29]
Chris Duffy
Hear true stories from Nobel laureates, authors,
- [49:33]
Yowei Sha
athletes and everyday people about why we do the things we do.
- [49:37]
Chris Duffy
Listen to choiceology@schwab.com podcast or wherever you listen. Hi there, it's Adam Grant from Ted's Rethinking Podcast and this episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. I get to spend my days studying how people think and what it actually takes to change our minds. It's work I find deeply meaningful. But even in meaningful work, there's still busy work. The admin, the repetitive processes, the invisible load that pulls attention away from what really matters. That's where ServiceNow's AI specialists come in. They don't just tell you what you should do about your busy work, they actually do it. Start to finish, cases closed, requests handled. No extra work for you. To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit ServiceNow.com.