← How to Be a Better Human
How to Be a Better Human
How to build your kid's confidence — by leaving them alone (w/ Lenore Skenazy)
00:41:27
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- [00:02]
A
You're listening to how to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. Let me tell you a quick story about cars. Growing up, my family did not own a car. We took public transportation. So cars always felt foreign and strange and a little bit dangerous to me in my life. Now I do have a car, but I know almost nothing about maintenance. And so when I took my car into Roz, my mechanic, who has also now become my friend, I asked him to help me change the car air filter. And rather than just charge me for the job, Raz had me sit down and watch him do it. And I saw how extremely simple this is. You literally just open one compartment, slide the old filter out, and slide the new filter in. It couldn't be simpler. So then the next time I needed to change the air filter, I did it myself. And I felt so proud. Genuinely. It made my day that I could now change a car air filter all on my own. And that experience is what today's guest, Lenore Skenazy wants all kids to have. Not literally changing the air filter on my old Toyota Camry, but the experience of being given independence and allowed to do things that maybe seem a little bit dangerous or outside of their comfort zone. Lenore argues that modern parenting has become so focused on safety that we are depriving kids of the chance to learn themselves and causing a whole host of other issues. Here's a clip from Lenore's TED Talk.
- [01:22]
B
We have to realize that we've been sort of brainwashed into believing that anytime our kids aren't with us, they're in terrible danger of being kidnapped by a guy in a white van looking for his puppy. Or also tragic not getting into Harvard, and as a result, terrible. I don't even like to think about it. But the upshot is that we are spending way more time with our kids than our parents spent with us, usually helping them do things that they could do on their own. And call it the adult takeover of childhood because it's so vast that the. What is it? University of Michigan did a study two years ago, and they found that parents want to give their kids independence. They recognize its importance. But the majority of parents of kids age 9 to 11, which is tweens, right? Kind of old, will not let them play at the park with a friend, will not let them walk to a friend's house. And if they're at the store shopping together, only 50% will let their kid go to another aisle. Okay, that's a real statistic. That's University of Michigan so sending your kid from a can of peas is like sending them to namm. Okay, it's just crazy. We gotta get braver than that. We gotta get brave enough to send our kids to the canned food aisle or to the park before their voice changes. So how.
- [02:59]
A
We'Re gonna be right back with a lot more from Lenoir in just a moment.
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- [04:26]
A
And we are back. This episode was recorded in person at the 2025 TED conference in Vancouver. And today we're talking about parenting, independence and how fight anxiety with Lenore Skenazy.
- [04:38]
B
I'm Lenore Skenazy. I am president of Let Grow and I'm founder of the Free Range Kids Movement.
- [04:45]
A
First, for people who aren't already familiar, what is free range parenting?
- [04:48]
B
It's the idea that kids are smarter and safer than we give them credit for. So they don't need us. They don't need us. Not that they don't need us at all, but they don't need us to help us that much. They don't need us to supervise that much.
- [05:00]
A
I'm always interested in ideas like this where to me a lot of it seems like extremely straightforward and yet it's often presented as like with the controversial idea that kids should have independence. So why do you think people regard this as controversial?
- [05:17]
B
I guess there's a couple reasons. One is it's more fun if it's controversial, it gives you something to talk about. Two is I think we have gotten to the point where we've forgotten that kids can do anything on their own. I mean, you see parents, I once told you, I talked to this guy and he said that every morning he takes his seven year old to the bus stop and they live two houses from the bus stop. And then he waits there and I said, why? And he said, I have no idea. And that's what I'm trying to make people look at and go, Come to think of it, that makes no sense. Goodbye. You know, I'll be here or I'll be at work.
- [05:48]
A
All of parenting is, but you in particular. And the ideas that you're known for are at the intersection of not just parenting, but also culture and media and fear and ideas about like community and others. Like you're hitting at all of these pieces that are real fault lines and insecurities in our society.
- [06:07]
B
I'm so glad you noticed that because I feel like I wouldn't be doing this for all these years if it was just here's how to feed your kid a balanced diet or something like that. But it does feel like I'm really interested in how did we get from my generation, which is a long time ago, when even the stay at home moms stayed at home, right, and let their kids go out into the world and lived without knowing anything about them from 8:30 in the morning till 3:30 in the afternoon, and then again from 4 till 6. And somehow that was not only considered normal. Nobody was having a breakdown. Nobody was saying, aren't you worried? And nobody was giving us, my parents, updates. And what happened to being able to live with not seeing and knowing everything your kid is doing every second? That's a huge cultural shift and it's a burden on parents. Cause now they feel that they must be in the know and they must be, you know, tracking or talking to the teacher or you know, just checking in or putting a kid in some organized activity where somebody else is watching them. How did we get to the point where we don't trust our kids, our neighbors, our own parenting at all?
- [07:11]
A
Before we get even deeper into the conversation, I feel like whenever we talk about parenting topics and kid topics on the show, I always just want to give like three. I don't even want to call them disclaimers, but three things that I really believe. So you know where I'm coming from. Okay, let's hear the first one is that parenting is really hard and it requires making an enormous amount of decisions that no one could possibly be prepared for.
- [07:30]
B
Many of those decisions will be quote, unquote, wrong or suboptimal. And that's okay because nobody ever had a perfect parent.
- [07:36]
A
That was literally the second thing I was going to say, which is great. I love that. Which is like, there's no way to get it right and it's not even possible or desirable to get it right.
- [07:43]
B
No, you don't want it. Yeah.
- [07:44]
A
And then I think the last one, which is important. I'm a parent. I love being a parent. I love having my son. But I also really believe that your life is just as full, complete and meaningful if you don't have kids.
- [07:55]
B
Right.
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A
That you just live a different life, not a worse or less than life.
- [07:58]
B
Right.
- [07:59]
A
I think these questions about, like, trust and independence and what do we believe a society is for, I think those are questions that apply to individuals, whatever age you are, whether you have a kid or not. I think a lot of the pushback on this idea that kids should be alone and do something in any way is based in this fear. Like something bad will happen to them, a crime will happen to them.
- [08:21]
B
Right.
- [08:22]
A
It's an explicit fear. And it comes from this idea that, like, the world is bad and people are always out to get you. That's a hard thing to push back on. And obviously you spent a long time pushing back on that.
- [08:32]
B
Yeah. So let's talk about the belief and then we'll talk about how to maybe counter the belief. There's a belief a lot of people share that the best way to prepare your child for the world is to tell them, you know, it's a mean world out there, you better be prepared, don't be a sucker. People are out to get you. You know, don't let them take advantage of you. Always be on your guard. And there was this really cool long study and you guys are at. Ted, you'll go look it up, Right. That found that these are called priors, I think, like, what is your prior belief in the world? And parents who tell their kids that think that they're doing them a favor because they're making sure that they won't be patsies, they won't be doormats. Right. They won't be taken advantage of. But there was a giant long term study done of kids who were told that versus kids who were told, you know, most people are pretty nice and yeah, keep your eyes open, but don't be distrustful. You Know you can depend on the world. And the kids who were told, don't be a patsy ended up having like worse relationships, worse jobs, less money, worse health, like physical health and mental health. And so the ironic thing is that, you know, we've been told that it's good to prepare your kid by telling them the worst case scenario. But in fact, that doesn't help them. What I found over the years is that you don't. There's no way to tell anybody. Oh my God. The odds are so small that anything bad will happen to your kid because they always go to the worst case scenario. I call it worst first thinking. You go to the worst case scenario and proceed as if it's likely to happen. So the only thing I've seen that counters that deep fear is being sort of pushed to let your kid do something even before you're ready. Cause you might never be ready. And you say, you know, like, so the Let Grow homework assignment, it's called the Let Grow experience, is when kids get the assignment, go home and do something new on your own with your parents permission, without your parent. So then your kid goes to the store and they come home beaming, you know, cause they got the milk or they got the stick of butter. What is it? The stick of butter and a loaf of bread and a carton of milk like on Sesame Street. Or they totally screwed up and they forgot to get the change and they lost their mitten and it's still okay. Cause even if they screwed up, it was okay.
- [10:34]
A
And.
- [10:34]
B
And only that real life experience of your kid being separate from you doing something on their own changes you. Because parents are hardwired to worry, but they're also hardwired to want to be raising a competent human being who will exist when they're gone. Right? And so you get this real flood of, I guess, endorphins or just confidence, and that allows you to do it again.
- [11:00]
A
A parallel that I've thought about in preparing for this interview is I really love to swim. And I love being in the ocean or lakes or rivers. And of course, if I'm swimming in the ocean, it is also true that there are sharks or stingrays or something somewhere in this vast expanse of water. And it would be really easy to say, like, because there's the chance of a shark, I should not enjoy this thing that I really enjoy. But I can read the statistics and understand that I'm like far more likely to be killed by a vending machine falling on me than a shark.
- [11:31]
B
And then watch out.
- [11:32]
A
Yeah. And So I don't avoid vending machines. And the only way to like, get over that, like, visceral fear, for me at least, is to just like go and be in the water and then realize, like, it's okay. I didn't get attacked by a shark. And it was so great. It felt really good. And then I keep going and it feels better every time. And eventually the idea of like a shark attack, I'm like, yeah, but I also could get into a car crash on the way to the beach.
- [11:51]
B
Much more likely.
- [11:52]
A
Yeah, much more likely. And I feel like that experience is way heightened with parenting. But you kind of have to have that over and over of like, something might happen, but it probably won't. And the only way to get out of that visceral thing is to just allow the kid to do some version of this.
- [12:08]
B
We had a psychologist named Camilo Ortiz do a pilot study of independence as actual therapy for kids with a diagnosis of anxiety. And normally he does cognitive behavioral therapy, but he recruited four kids, he recruited four families where the kids had like, not just like, oh, I'm scared, but like, you know, heart palpitations or they couldn't go to school. I mean, sort of off the charts worse than just everyday anxiety. And the way he treated them was the first week he just had the two parents come and he talked to them and he found out like the main reason that they were there. And in one case it was a 9 year old, a 10 year old who was afraid to go upstairs and downstairs in his own home. And in another case it was a girl who was afraid to sleep in her own bed. Nine years old. And then he had the parents come with the kid. And normally in cognitive behavioral therapy it'd be, well, kid, you know, I hear you're afraid to go upstairs in your own house. How about tonight you go up for five minutes and come down and see how that felt. And then tomorrow, next week we'll do 10 minutes. He didn't talk about that fear at all. He didn't mention the deficit or the. And instead he said, you're 10, you know, I've been talking to your parents about how you're probably ready to do more than they let you do. What are some things that you want to do that you haven't done on your own? And in fact, that 10 year old wanted to walk home from school, he wanted to take the Long island railroad, and he wanted to do some other things. And his job was to do one new thing either every day or every other day for Four weeks. And he did these things, and it really changed him to the point where that was, like, over the summer. And then came the new school year, and it was. He was about to go into middle school, which is a new school. And of course, because this is what I say, it's our culture that's sort of driving us crazy. The school sends home, a new school year is looming. And of course your child will be completely flummoxed and confused and probably intimidated because they have to find a locker and they're going to meet new people and there's shiny, slippery floors, whatever it is, you might want to come with them just to ease the transition. And he told his parents, no, I got this. And he went to school by himself that first day. And he came home and he said, I was, like, the only one there without my parents. So to me, it says so many things. It says that a little confidence goes a long way. Knowing that your parents trust you goes a long way. And then you have a culture undermining you every step of the way. Pretending that going to a new school is so hard that no child should ever have to do it without, you know, parental guidance, which is not true. We can all go to a new school and make our way.
- [14:34]
A
It also feels like there's this real hesitance to believe that you can learn these skills that, like, skills are learnable. You know, it's like, I have to do it for my kid because, like, there's some sort of set level of ability that they have, and they only get it by getting older, not by trying.
- [14:52]
B
Yeah, or they only get it by being specifically taught. I was reading some meme yesterday, and the words on this one were, if school started at age 0, there would be, you know, classes on how to teach your child to walk. Because we've started to assume that everything needs adult guidance and specific instruction as opposed to things kicking in. But a lot kicks in, and we don't see it anymore because we do have all these classes to teach kids things. And so that's why my whole TED Talk boils down to. I hope the title they give it is spend less time with your kids. Because when you do, they will start learning stuff on their own, and they will be clumsy and take minor risks and sometimes be mean or hurt or whatever. And, you know, that's okay, because that's how they get to this competence. To think that it's all adult led is like, nobody taught you to speak. Right. And that's because curiosity and the desire for things like the desire to communicate, the desire to make things happen, are innate. And we keep forgetting that there's any innate curiosity or drive in kids. And, you know, the whole teachable moment idea, let them have some curiosity of their own. And what looks like dawdling and what looks like inefficiency is how you become efficient.
- [16:09]
A
Okay, now I'm going to give you, the listener, some independence, and I'm going to trust that you will stay tuned even while we take a quick break for some podcast ads.
- [16:25]
C
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Transform the everyday with Siemens. And we are back. So, my son is a toddler and because of that, the social media algorithms feed me a lot. And I do think that everything you're saying really resonates with what I with my prior beliefs and what my inclination is. And also I think one of the challenges is especially since I'm doing it for the first time there's this fear and guilt and fear of shame. And so like you gave the example of like, it's not like you needed to teach them how to speak, but literally on my phone I'll get videos that are like, if you don't do this, your child will not learn how to speak correctly. Make sure that you're mimicking the sounds back to them. Like, that is like a very common thing that I see on there.
- [19:17]
B
Wait a minute. How dare they undermine you that way and turn parenting into this huge drag and fear filled experience. That's just so unfair.
- [19:26]
A
That's my question for you is because I feel like I have a fair amount of confidence in myself as a parent. Partly because I worked at an elementary school and you did. Yeah, I taught fifth grade.
- [19:36]
B
You did? Oh my God.
- [19:37]
A
So I kind of have been around kids and also I just naturally really like being around kids and playing with them. And so I have a fair amount of confidence. But it is hard anymore. Yeah, exactly. It's hard because you're like, there is a very strong feeling as a parent of like, well, you don't really get another shot at this. Like, if I mess it up, then maybe they're gonna be messed up for life.
- [19:55]
B
That's so interesting you used that phrase, the mess up phrase, because that's the phrase that I've been hearing a lot among kids. And when people talk about kids being anxious and depressed, one of the things is that they are so afraid of messing up that they're sort of retreating. And of course I don't even wanna talk about like, and the idea of being videotaped while you're messing up. So then there's that whole other layer of potential embarrassment. But did you mess up walking into the room? What if you tripped? Oh my God, that guy cannot walk. You know, I mean, nobody's perfect. And the idea that there is some straight path and otherwise you're deviating and your kid is never gonna talk because you didn't say, honey, this is a cup of T T T. It's so wild. I mean, it's really interesting that we have a culture that can drain us of so much common sense and confidence. And often it's so that they can instill something else, which is a class or a book or a product that you have to buy. And I like, you know, I like our country, I like capitalism. But the easiest dollar to get from any human being is a dollar of a parent that you've scared that somehow your kid is going to be hurt. Or fall behind. But I have a solution.
- [21:10]
A
Absolutely. I've spent a lot of those dollars.
- [21:12]
B
Don't spend any more.
- [21:13]
A
Okay, so this is a big question for you, which is, what is the end goal of this movement that you're leading? How does society change when we embrace this? What's the big shift?
- [21:24]
B
In the end, I think it would be a sort of trust revolution. Like you would start trusting yourself. Evolution has created a way for kids to get ahead. Even if you weren't speaking 3 million words to them at dinner tonight, you would trust your neighbors because your kid would be walking to school and you'd realize that they were fine. And in fact, you know, two doors down, the lady gave them a ball or whatever. So it would be trusting the school that you don't have to see pictures from them every day. You don't have to get a report from them every hour, how the kid is doing, and be trusting the camp. You don't have to see if your kid is smiling at the cookout. It would just be sort of breathing easier. And the big lie, or one of the big lies of our culture is that the more information you have, the more easier you can breathe. Right? Oh, you know, you'll be tracking your child. Finally, you'll have peace of mind. No, my mom had peace of mind because she trusted me to walk to school and trusted the neighbors not to kill me and eat me. Right? And information is sort of the opposite of trust. So this is an unformed idea, but Adam and Eve are in the Garden of Eden, and a snake comes along and says, look, you can track your kids, right? Right. It's like, oh, that'll give me pe. Yes, you'll have knowledge. You'll know. Maybe this happens with your kid, too. As a toddler, the daycare center sends a report at the end of the day that tells you when they peed and whether it was number one, number two, or number one, and how much they ate. And all this superfluous, completely unnecessary information, unless your kid was really ill and you were getting information from the NICU on, like, this worked for them, or finally, they could eat something. But if. But treating everything as if it's so close to death that you better have every bit of information on, are they surviving? Are they thriving? Is a really radically crazy way to look at childhood and your kid, and it drives you crazy. The same way if your kid was really ill. And so to be able to step back from that is the only way you can breathe easier. The only option for us to feel confident and hopeful as parents is. Is trust or faith or whatever you want to call it, other than constant information and constant intervention. And we're being told the opposite.
- [23:46]
A
Absolutely. I think that one of the most challenging things that I've had to do as a parent so far is a really small one.
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B
Okay.
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A
He was born a little. He was born early. And so there was a genuine need at first. Well, there was certainly a lot of fear, but there was also a genuine need to track how much he was eating at first.
- [24:03]
B
Okay.
- [24:04]
A
And so we had a notebook, and we would write down how much he ate. And once he was doing fine, we kept doing it. And a lactation consultant came and, you know, helped out with a lot of stuff. But then she asked us, what's your plan to stop tracking?
- [24:19]
B
Oh, God bless her.
- [24:21]
A
And I was so surprised by that.
- [24:22]
B
Yeah.
- [24:23]
A
And I genuinely felt like that was one of the hardest transitions of the whole parenting journey was to decide, like, this thing that feels, like, very active, and I'm doing it, and when I do it, I protect my son. And then I had to be like, actually, it's okay if I don't know how many ounces he ate today. It doesn't matter. He's fine. It was really hard to stop writing it in the notebook, because at the end of the day, I could add it up and go, looks like we're good parents. And then the next day when we stopped doing it, it was like, I guess he's okay.
- [24:52]
B
Yeah.
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A
And that had to be. I guess I'm a good parent because I got him to a place where I don't need to do that. But that was a big mental shift.
- [24:58]
B
Yeah. I'd say just accept the fact that you're a good parent, period, without any evidence. Okay. Cause there'll be evidence along the way that you think you're a terrible parent. Cause your kid does something stupid or bad. And it's not that you're a bad parent. It's that people are people. Right. And when you stopped writing this down and it was like a week later, did you feel better that you weren't writing it down?
- [25:20]
A
Yeah, absolutely.
- [25:21]
B
Yeah.
- [25:21]
A
But it was. The transitional days were the really hard ones.
- [25:24]
B
Right. So that's what Let Grow is trying to do. We're trying to make. We're trying to be that lactation consultant. In a way. It's like, I know you think you have to walk your kid to the bus stop. I know you think you have to watch every soccer game. I know you think that things are better if you're in the backyard with them. Oh, I'm not paying attention. I'm not interfering. I'm just like, oh, do you need a band aid? Not interfering. Oh, do you need a sip of water? Not interfering. Oh, you know, it's his turn anyways. If you can take that step back, then you get to that point like you were a week later when it's like, oh, this is going okay. Oh, I can trust my kids, you know, guts and internal system and their health. And once you can do that, then your kid is. I don't want to say better off because that becomes this judgy thing again. But you can breathe easier, right? So if you do, I'm gonna beg here. Our programs are free. All our materials are free. If you go to letgrow.org and you click on schools, if you're a teacher or principal or whatever, or you show it to your school, you can just get the Let Grow experience, which tells all the parents in the school to let their kids do something new. And that's like the Let Grow. It is a trusted authority, the school, telling you that you can take a step back and let your kids step up. And once you've done it a couple times, then you will breathe easier. And then you will see other kids around in the neighborhood, and then there will be kids doing errands for you, and then there will be kids just saying, like, I can do this myself, and you will feel great, and you will actually have a little free time.
- [26:50]
A
There's so much that's really practical that you can do today. So let's look at a couple different ages of kids.
- [26:55]
B
Okay.
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A
If someone has a.
- [26:57]
B
Say a toddler.
- [26:58]
A
A toddler. Yeah. Yeah. We can start with Nate. Let's start, say, a toddler. How can you start embodying these principles at an early age?
- [27:05]
B
The best book about this I thought was certainly not mine was a book called Hunt, Gather, Parent. And she says that just like there's an innate drive for a lot of things, like eating and, you know, sleeping, there's an innate drive in kids to help out. They really want to be part of something, and the part of something is your family or your community. I didn't read this book when my kids were young, so it didn't work, but it a great idea for other people, which is have them help out. And I know it takes forever, and I know they will spill and they'll do a lousy job of cleaning up, but if you could have them, like, you know, fold the napkins for dinner or Sort the laundry. Not that I even sort the laundry. You don't have to sort your laundry. Just do it out cold. It's so obvious. But just have them do some things. They love being part of stuff. There was a lecture here or a talk by Jennifer Wallace about how everybody wants to matter. Well, you know, weave them into the fabric of everyday life and then they don't even have to question that. Of course, I'm the kid who takes out the garbage and as they get. Or just have them do more stuff in the real world and then have them do it without you. And they can always do it with a friend or a sibling. So if you're afraid of them just being by themselves at the grocery, have them go with a friend. But there's nothing more exhilarating than being competent. I mean, it feels great. I feel great. I just did my TED Talk. I'm done. I have, like, the pinnacle of competence. For me. It feels so good. Why would we take that away from our kids? By doing everything with them and for them and always assisting them. You know, the message they get is that you love me and you don't think I'm really that smart.
- [28:30]
A
And it feels like when kids get to be teenagers, they have a very natural push of, like, even if you are trying to not have them be independent, they're gonna say, like, I wanna be independent. I need this space.
- [28:41]
B
I wonder if that's getting extinguished too. I've seen kids who are in middle school, maybe not high schoolers, they seem sometimes, and I haven't seen that many schools, and I've seen kids in school, so maybe that's the problem. But they seem really passive. And you want that drive to be there, even if it drives you nuts.
- [28:59]
A
Yeah. For thinking about the practical thing that someone could do. What if they are? They're listening to this, they watch your talk, they read your book, and they're like, okay, I'm kind of sold on this, but I haven't been doing this.
- [29:09]
B
Oh, so.
- [29:10]
A
So what's the first step to start?
- [29:12]
B
Send them out to help you do something. You know, go get something. Go run an errand, go talk to the neighbor. Help me with this. Or do this instead of me. I've been doing this for you. I bet you could do this now.
- [29:23]
A
It's interesting because it really is so simple. Right?
- [29:25]
B
It's so simple that I'm supposed to be writing now a 30 days to a Let Grow kid. And I have resisted this for 17 years because I think, like, duh, you know, it's like, open the door, let them go play outside. Let them. I keep saying the same things. Have them run an errand, have them get themselves to their guitar class, whatever. And I'm realizing that people do want instruction because we've almost been instructed to expect instruction. And when you just told me at the beginning of this talk that you're getting stuff in your social media feed every day on how to talk to your kid and feed your kid and whatever else you're getting. Yeah, I guess I didn't realize how much prescription was being shoved down parents throats, and I didn't wanna be part of that. But if that's how people get their information and sort of get the permission to do new things, then I gotta get with the program. I gotta write that thing.
- [30:21]
A
I do think that there's so much of that information out there, and I do think that this makes so much sense. I also think that it is really countercultural. There are a lot of forces that are saying, like, that is a wild, radical idea, even though it's so simple. That's the message that I get from the parenting media that is served to me and from the parents on the playground and all the other places is like, that's wild.
- [30:44]
B
But if people understood how much kids learn when they're not with us and when they're not in a class, then they wouldn't keep thinking that it was like either kids were being safe and educated or lying fallow and they're in danger. So the Yale study took parents coming into a museum in Philadelphia, and they told group A, the kids were like 5 years old. Your kid has to put on all this hockey gear because that will get them in the mood for the museum. And then group B was told, your kids have to put on this hockey gear. And let me tell you, every time they're trying to figure out how to do that toggle or how to pull on that boot, they are learning. Each of those is a learning experience. And then they clicked to see how many times parents were helping the kids. And the ones who knew that it was, who had been told this is a learning experience, intervened half as much.
- [31:36]
A
Wow.
- [31:37]
B
Because they immediately recognized, like, okay, he's struggling, but their synapses are building, you know, and cognitive ability is kicking in. If everybody understood that about independence, that even when a kid is waiting at the bus stop and the bus doesn't come and it's late realizing like, oh, I should go home again, or I guess it's time for me to walk to school, all that's executive function. That's paying attention. That's agency. The big word of the year. Agency. Then maybe they could step back because they would see how much is going on when they're not teaching them and not watching them. And that's also what I want people to recognize about play. Like, when kids are given time to just. Just play. Oh, my God, it's just child's play. I wish they would get that play out of the way so they could get back to learning. You're learning so much when you're playing and you're making friends and you're getting exercise. And so there's like. It is the most nutrient dense thing that kids could do for their minds and their bodies and their future selves and their social lives and their jo. Right. And we're all worried about kids being anxious and depressed. Look, well, we have a natural cure here. It's called free play. Kids are driven to do it. We keep replacing it with travel, soccer. If you step back, actually, that is an enriching experience for them. I think that if people recognize that at least they would sign their kids up for free play after school, just the way they sign them up for chess.
- [33:02]
A
It's reflective to me also of. In American culture, there is a real push to not have moments of inactivity or boredom or silence. Right. Like, I go from working on my computer to I am actively doing something, and then while I'm waiting for the bus, I'm looking on my phone. There's really, like, I'm never supposed to be.
- [33:23]
B
It's not even ever supposed to be. It's. It is boring to be bored.
- [33:26]
A
Yeah.
- [33:26]
B
And now there's a lot of ways to get out of that very quickly. And I do it all the time, too, but I don't think it's frowned upon. I just think that there's so much water that immediately seeps in. So I gotta tell you, this one guy I met here, Adam Har Horowitz, he studies dreams, and he said, collectively, our dreams are getting less interesting. Why?
- [33:45]
A
Wow.
- [33:46]
B
Why?
- [33:47]
A
I guess because we don't have as much boredom or free time.
- [33:50]
B
When we're bored now, we immediately go to our phones, which I do even when I'm in the checkout line. And so we've gotten less good at daydreaming, so we're less good at night dreaming.
- [34:00]
A
Wow, that is fascinating.
- [34:01]
B
Isn't that wild?
- [34:02]
A
That is really wild. You know, sometimes with issues like this, which are cultural, but they're also, you know, parenting and they're societal. There are models of other places that do it better. And one, one that I think about is I love the, the TV show. Old enough.
- [34:17]
B
Yeah.
- [34:17]
A
I think it is so fun. It's incredible. It's just like Japanese kids, often very young, doing errands outside of the house. And it is so funny. And it's also just especially watching it as an American. You're like.
- [34:28]
B
And especially you got a toddler.
- [34:29]
A
It'll be like a six year old will like go harvest spring onions and then like sell them at the market and then come back with like a whole thing of sushi. And the mom is like, hooray, you did it. Or the funniest episodes are where they completely fail at the task and they like decide to go off the rails. But it's not because they fail in the way that like we're scared of.
- [34:47]
B
Right, right.
- [34:48]
A
It's like he's like, actually I want orange juice instead. So then he goes and buys orange juice instead of the groceries. But that is indicative, right? Like the fact that they can make that show in Japan. And it wasn't like Japan's most wanted criminals who let kids do this.
- [35:00]
B
Right, Right, right. So people think that it's. Of course, if we lived in Japan, we'd all be doing that. But there's two things going on there. One is it's the society that says it's fine. But two, it's a society that recognizes that a six year old and actually those kids go down to two, which seems a little young, are competent or can be reasonably competent enough to the point where you can film them doing something. So. And what I really love, there's one episode where it's. It's a girl who's like about five and her brother who's three. And they're always going to get something for sushi. And the little boy is crying his eyes out at the beginning. And if this was American TV cut, you know, or a mother, like, how is the mother gonna let him go? He's crying, honey, why aren't you going to soothe him? It's like, because he's gonna be beyond soothed by going to the butcher and then going to the rice store and going to the vegetable place and then going to the fish. They go to like, you know, a five course meal. Right. And at the end, you know, he's really happy and proud. And that dip is something that we almost don't allow. And it's really hard to allow it in American culture. Cause we think we have to jump in when our kids are disappointed or a little frustrated or whatever. Which is why my whole message boils down to we can't be with them all the time. But when you're with your kid and they're, you know, confused or hurt, you inevitably step in. Or even if they're sub optimized. Let me do that for you. That's taking forever. So the only way to not jump in is to not be there to jump in. So that's why the message becomes pretty basic, which is we can't always be with our kids. You can't have an adult always with your kids or they will change childhood only Boost Mobile Boost Mobile will give.
- [36:40]
A
You a free year of service Free year when you buy a new 5G.
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C
Phone new 5G phone enough.
- [36:45]
A
But I'm your hype man. When you purchase an eligible Device, you get $25 off every month for 12 months with credits totaling one year free service taxes extra for the device and service plan online only.
- [36:53]
C
Hi, I'm Madupak Enola from TED Business and I'm here to talk about the Financial Times. Every day the world bombards you with endless headlines and noise. What matters most? Facts and context. That's where the Financial Times comes in. With clarity, depth and truly independent reporting, the FT helps you cut through the noise and see what's real and why it matters. Stay informed with the trusted source leaders around the world rely on. Visit FT.comSourceFT to read more and save 40% on a digital FT subscription. Imagine a world of extraordinary comfort where Bolen Branch Bedding wraps you in the softest. Embrace the coziest experience. Made from the world's finest 100% organic cotton, all so you can sleep back. Start building your fall sanctuary with Bolen Branches iconic signature sheets made with a buttery, breathable weave that gets softer with every wash. Enjoy 15 off your first set of sheets with free shipping and returns at B O L L& Branch.com with code BUTTERY. See site for details and exclusions.
- [38:09]
A
I grew up in New York City.
- [38:10]
B
Yay.
- [38:11]
A
And where I grew up on the Upper west side. And when people ask me what it was like to grow up in New York, one of the things that I always tell them is that the best time was when I was old enough to do things on my own but not old enough to drive a car. And that for a lot of kids that's a really boring period of time, right?
- [38:28]
B
And a horrible time for parents because they are stuck driving the car the whole time.
- [38:31]
A
But for me, I can be like, I'm gonna Go walk to my friend John's house. We're gonna go to the movies, we're gonna go to a concert downtown. And when I think about what informed my sense of self, my passions, the kind of music that I like, the kind of movies I like, just like who I am, so much of it was having that independence in a place where there was a lot going on. And so I share that. To say, like, it would have been such a different experience and so negative if my parents had said, you live in a city, it's dangerous. You can't do those things. Instead of saying, this is the benefit of where you live, is that you get to do those things. And then the first time, like my dad, I know you have a very personal relationship to letting your kid take the subway.
- [39:13]
B
Yeah.
- [39:13]
A
But there's like, there's a moment in our, in my family history that's like we always laugh about, which is that the first time my parents let me take the subway alone, my dad, like, secretly followed me and like, rode in the car behind me. But that's a funny story to me because he didn't keep doing that. Like, he just did it that one time. And then he was like, okay, you're fine. And so I think, like, that independence is it let me be who I am. But I also, I realized that must have been pretty scary for my parents to allow that. Like, it must have been nerve wracking and uncomfortable, even though it was so important to me.
- [39:45]
B
Right. So another thing that strikes me as strange about our culture is that people think, like, they can be parents without worrying. Like, are you kidding? Are you kidding? Have you ever had even a goldfish and now you have a kid.
- [39:57]
A
Yeah.
- [39:58]
B
Right. And so that's one of the reasons that all this surveillance and tracking and, you know, constant knowledge of our kids is supposed to. To, you know, supposed to alleviate that worry. And it doesn't. Worry is part of the deal. And your worry is sort of a small price to pay for your kids thriving. I shouldn't say it's a small price to pay. It's a big. I hate worry. I hate worry. And I do worry. People think I don't worry. The only thing I don't worry about is the subway and strangers. I worry. Oh, my God, my kids drive. I can't even. They don't even tell me. Like, my son drove to Canada from New York recently, and it's like, he didn't let me know. And I was grateful because I didn't know.
- [40:35]
A
It's also, as an adult, I feel like another genre of social media video. And we actually have interviewed him on the show is Ja Jong. He wrote a book called Rejection Therapy.
- [40:44]
B
Oh, the guy who went around trying to, like, do things that would always get rejected. Like ordering lobster at McDonald's.
- [40:49]
A
Exactly. And what he found, he's very focused on adults doing this for themselves. But what he found was all these things that he built up in his head as like, if I go to the donut store and say, can you make me one giant donut instead of six normal sized dogs? Of course they'll say no. And not only will they say no, they'll get mad at me and kick me out. And instead we found is that like, sometimes people said no and it wasn't a big deal.
- [41:09]
B
Right.
- [41:09]
A
And often people said yes and were excited. And then he had, like this great connection and relationship. So I do think there's this element of what you're working on with parents to do to their kids that also a lot of adults we need to do for ourselves. Which is to say, like, a lot of what I'm fearful about in the world, if I tested that against reality, wouldn't hold up. And instead I would have a more magical, exciting, and connected life if I just trusted a little bit more.
- [41:37]
B
Trust is the key.
- [41:37]
A
But living in the United States, social trust is not our strongest suit, especially in this moment. But I guess I'm wondering, even for people who aren't parents or for parents who are not thinking about this with their own kids, what can we do to challenge our assumptions?
- [41:52]
B
I got an easy one.
- [41:53]
A
That this world is that we shouldn't trust people and that it is a dangerous and vicious place out there.
- [41:58]
B
So there was this other cool experiment done with college students. Half the group of 300 kids was told to read some article about, like, the world is a nice place. And the other half were said, okay for five days next week. On day one, you have to compliment somebody whose shoes you like. Day two, you have to compliment somebody whose earrings. Earrings you like, you know? Day three, something else. Ask somebody the time. And everybody was asked beforehand. You know, are you gonna. How do you feel about, oh, I'm gonna look like an idiot. People are gonna be annoyed. And of course, the people who ended up actually interacting with their fellow humans found the opposite. And then they kept wanting to talk to humans because reality is really way better than whatever is going on in our head. Which is why all I'm trying to do is come up with ways of forcing reality upon parents so that they get to Live in the real world instead of this terrible world that our culture has foisted into our head of everything being dangerous and our kids being in constant peril.
- [42:58]
A
There's a real strong pressure to be like, your kid is a representation of you. You're supposed to get things from your kid. You're supposed to get validation, and you're supposed to get social approval, and you're supposed to get all of these things. And that, I think, is a really strong force to think. Like, it's not just you're supposed to love them and you're supposed to do your best for them. It's also that if they're in the playground and they're, like, playing badly, it's on you.
- [43:23]
B
Yeah, it's embarrassing. That's why if you're with your kid all the time, of course you will intervene, because, honey, we use our indoor voice, or, honey, we share our toys, and the kid's going, bam. You know what, though? People will feel really great if your kid is bad, because then they'll feel good. So your kid will always be invited.
- [43:40]
A
But I feel this. Even, like, I try and push back on this for myself, but then I feel this. Like. I'll give you a small example. I know that the way that you learn to use a spoon is by using a spoon. So if I'm alone and we're eating food, I'll be like, use the spoon. Make a mess. But then if someone else is in our house, I'm like, it's gonna be embarrassing to have the mess. Maybe I shouldn't let him eat with the spoon. Maybe I should give him food that is not messy so that they don't see mess. Yeah, I understand that. Not as, like, an instinct that is in the best interest of my child as much as it is in the best interest of the social image I have of myself.
- [44:20]
B
So try to get rid of that social image. Good luck. It'd be good if you could, because everybody knows that kids are total messes. What I wouldn't want to be around your kid with a spoon is if they're gonna fling it. Also, nobody's paying that much attention. It's sort of like I remember in junior high being so acutely aware at a bar mitzvah of no one dancing with me. And. And I think that nobody was paying attention. And I'm weirded out that I still feel that way to a certain extent. Like, everybody's talking to Ted. Doesn't anyone want to talk to me? I think that we're all creatures of intense mortification and self consciousness. And if you could just realize how little anybody cares or is judging a toddler for not using a spoon, well, you could ease up. Great.
- [45:05]
A
I love that. Thank you so much for being on the show. This was so fun. Oh thank you.
- [45:09]
B
This was a wild round.
- [45:13]
A
That is it for today's episode of how to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to our guest Lenore Skenazy. Her book is called Free Range Kids and you can find more information about her@freerangekids.com and letgrow.org I am your host Chris Duffy and my book Humor Me about How to Laugh More Every Day is available for pre order now. You can find out more about the the book and all of my other projects@chrisduffycomedy.com how to be a Better Human is put together by a team who supervise me in a very free range way. On the TED side we've got trusting independent POD parents Daniela Balorazzo, Banban Chang, Michelle Quint, Chloe Chauxha Brooks, Valentina Bohanini, Lainey Lot, Tansika Sungmanivong, Antonia Le and Joseph De Bruyne. This episode was fact checked by Julia Dickerson and Mattea Salas who insist on supervising the truth. On the PRX side, we've got fully realized independent adults Morgan Flannery, Nora Gill, Patrick Grant and Jocelyn Gonzalez. Thanks again to you for listening. Please share this episode with a person who is a model of independence and trust for you. We will be back next week with even more how to Be a Better Human. Until then, take care and thanks for listening.
- [46:24]
B
Only Boost Mobile Boost Mobile will give.
- [46:27]
A
You a free year of service. Free year when you buy a new 5G phone new 5G phone?
- [46:31]
B
Enough.
- [46:31]
A
But I'm your hype man. When you purchase an eligible device, you get $25 off every month for 12 months with credits totaling one year of free service. Taxes extra for the device and service plan online only.
- [46:40]
C
Hi, I'm Madhupak and Ola from TED Business and I'm here to talk about the Financial Times. Every day the world bombards you with endless headlines and noise. What matters most? Facts and context. That's where the Financial Times comes in. With clarity, depth and truly independent reporting, the FT helps you cut through the noise and see what's real and why it matters. Stay informed with the trusted source leaders around the world rely on. Visit FT.comSourceFT to read more and save 40% on a digital FT subscription. Watching your TV struggle with acne is tough. You want to help, but where do you start? Panoxyl makes it simple with dermatologist recommended products trusted for over 50 years. From powerful face washes to invisible patches, it's real skincare that works and builds confidence, too. Support your teen's skin journey with Panoxyl. Learn more at panoxyl.com or shop the Panoxyl store on Amazon. Panoxyl, the acne authority.