← How to Be a Better Human
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- [00:01]
Elise Hu
Hi TED Podcast listeners. It's Elise Hu here from TED Talks Daily. Thanks for making our podcast part of your routine. We really appreciate it and we want to make your favorite TED podcasts even better. We put together a quick survey and we'd love to hear from you. It only takes a few minutes, but it helps us shape our shows and get to know you, our listeners, way better. Head to the episode description to find the link. Thank you again for listening and for taking the time to help our shows.
- [00:33]
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- [00:59]
Chris Duffy
Travel terms apply. Lounge access is subject to change. See capitalone.com for details.
- [01:03]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
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- [02:02]
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- [02:37]
Chris Duffy
You're listening to how to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. Today on the show, our guest is the incredibly accomplished Dawn Burrell. We're gonna be talking about something that I think about a lot and that I know that many of you probably wrestle with, which is, how do you figure out what you're supposed to be doing? Like, if you switch careers or change fields, what does that take? And dawn is the perfect person to get into this because you may know her as an Olympic long jumper or as one of the stars on the TV show Top Chef. But Dawn's career path, from the highest levels of athletics to the highest levels of culinary achievement, it has been a long road full of many ups and many downs. In 1997, she won the long jump title at the USA Indoor Track and Field Championships. In 2000, she competed in the Olympics in Sydney. And in 2001, she won gold at the Indoor World Championships. But then she suffered an ACL injury to her knee, which changed the shape of her athletic career. So dawn reinvented herself as a chef, studying culinary arts at the Arts Institute of Houston and working under acclaimed chefs in the US And London before becoming executive Chef of Culture in Houston, where she was a semifinalist for a James beard Award in 2020. That led to dawn appearing on TV shows like Chopped and Cutthroat Kitchen and making it to the final three on Top chef Portland. In 2023, dawn returned for Top Chef World All Stars, but was eliminated in the second episode. And here's dawn talking about that experience.
- [04:06]
Dawn Burrell
I thought it was a great show, and I enjoyed being in the arena again. I thought, maybe this is it. This is going to be the one, like, I'm going to really, truly, like, compete head to head, and it's going to be the epitome of culinary athleticism, is what I thought, you know, and then I just kind of went in there and I put myself out there. I didn't get on the bracket, and I had to come home, and I had to deal with that and find the lesson.
- [04:31]
Chris Duffy
Career successes, career setbacks, reinventing yourself, finding meaning through it all. That is the topic of today's interview with the inspiring, the thoughtful, and the incredibly determined Dawn Burrell.
- [04:43]
Dawn Burrell
Hi, I'm Chef Dawn Burrell. I am an Olympian, a former professional athlete, and currently a chef.
- [04:51]
Chris Duffy
For people who aren't as familiar with your career path, or maybe who only know you from your work as a chef. Can you talk to us about your time as an athlete and as an Olympian?
- [05:02]
Dawn Burrell
So I decided to be an athlete because my brother. My brother was a successful sprinter, right? I followed him to University of Houston at the time when my brother and I were having this conversation. I think I was in ninth grade, and he was a junior at University of Houston. He is a super successful. He led the nation in the 100 meter, and I think was the collegiate record holder. All these good things, right? I was a ninth grader trying to figure out my everything, you know, being overshadowed by my brother. You know, I didn't have a sense of self or an idea of what I love to do. I only knew that I was incredibly athletic. But I wanted to play basketball. You know, I was like, oh, I want to do a different thing that my brother's doing. So I won't be compared, you know, my whole entire life, which happened, by the way. But we walked to the grocery store, and he was like, you know, Don, I know that you like basketball, but I really do think you'll be successful in track and field. It's like you have everything within you. And I was like, okay, yeah, you know, so I'll become this track and field athlete just like my big brother, right? And so I followed him to University of Houston, and. And I followed him into a professional career. This is the time period that I actually needed an example, to be honest, because I need an example to follow, and sometimes you need one. And when you're young or immature or whatever, and it's always nice to link up, but that doesn't mean, like, that's your last goal, right? So if you have an example to follow, you know, as far as whatever career or talent that. That you're aspiring to be, I think it's helpful. I do think it's helpful to see an example. But once you mature and you start to have more confidence and confidence in yourself, you decide to travel, you know, roads that are even less traveled. You know, I'm trying to discover new things within yourself that you. Your mind has created for you to do.
- [06:56]
Chris Duffy
We talked about you getting into running, but can you talk to us about getting into long jumping and how that started?
- [07:03]
Dawn Burrell
When you decide to compete professionally, you can just kind of choose one event or two events or a group of events that. That work well together. I went to work with a coach at Rice University, and he wanted me to long jump only because he was primarily a long jump coach. And I agreed.
- [07:24]
Chris Duffy
And Then you went to the Olympics. And I'm sure you get asked this all the time, but what about the Olympics was like what you expected and what was different than you expected beforehand?
- [07:34]
Dawn Burrell
I've never been asked this before. I imagine that it could open up like a world of new experiences. Like, you know, I've never. I'd never been around so many people from so many different places. And so when I walked into the food hall, I just saw everyone from everywhere and I thought that was really cool. You can go and talk to people and learn new things all day long if you wanted to. Just about things that you've never been exposed too. Right? And so I thought that was cool. And that's. That was what I expected. What I didn't expect is to feel so small in a stadium that was so big and so huge. Like, it's so full of people. And I'd never been on a stage that big before. I. I competed at the world championships. I competed like all over the world before then, but I never walked into a stadium like that. It was amazing. It was an amazing feeling. And it was also like, kind of made me feel like a very small person with a very huge opportunity.
- [08:38]
Chris Duffy
We're going to talk more about that feeling of being small amidst a big opportunity in just a moment. But first, we're going to take a quick ad break. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. You know, something that we don't talk about enough, especially among men, is just how heavy and how difficult life can feel. Sometimes there's this pressure to always have it together, to perform, to provide, to be the one who fixes things. And yet, over 6 million men in the US experience depression each year, often without realizing it and without getting support. But here's the real strength, real masculinity. It's not about bottling things up. It's about knowing when to reach out. Therapy does not have to just be for crisis moments. It can help you to build positive coping skills. It can help you to learn how to set boundaries and most importantly, to become a version of yourself that you feel proud of every day. Now I know that in person therapy is not accessible to everyone. That's what I do. I love it. I found it so helpful. But if that's not accessible to you, either because you can't find someone in your area or it's too expensive, BetterHelp could be a great option for you. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professional with a diverse variety of expertise. Talk it out with BetterHelp our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com human that's BetterHelp H-E-L-P.com human.
- [10:11]
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- [10:35]
Dawn Burrell
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- [10:39]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
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- [11:38]
Chris Duffy
And we are back. I feel like a lot of people who I know in my personal life, and I know people who listen to this show often think about switching careers doing something completely different from what they do. And you have led this very public life of being at the top of two very challenging careers. What do you actually do when you are thinking about moving from one field to another?
- [12:02]
Dawn Burrell
I think that what I do is I just decide. I just decide to do something. And I do love a challenge. I consider it natural. And I wish that more people would just decide because that's truly what it's about. You know, of course you have to have the talent to do so. Skill, determination, all those things. But deciding to really believe in yourself and move forward with what you're dreaming about or thinking about is the step. You know, you have to just do that first and foremost and then things will fall in line for you.
- [12:41]
Chris Duffy
For a lot of people and myself included, there's A real comfort to school, right? Because there is, like, a set framework. You have homework, you have tests. Doing well is getting an A. It's getting this number on a test, right? There's like, success and failure are really clearly defined. You moved from university and you went into the world of professional athletics, into the Olympics. There's, again, a really clear metric for what you're supposed to be doing, for what it means to be successful, for what it means to not be successful.
- [13:12]
Dawn Burrell
Yes.
- [13:13]
Chris Duffy
And then in the world outside of athletics and in the world outside of school, I think a lot of people, and again, myself fully included, really struggle with the idea that there's no longer clear metrics, that there's not like someone who is the adult in the room saying, well, if you get a 100, that means you are a good boy, and if you get a 50, it means you need to work harder. That doesn't exist as much in the real world. So how have you adjusted to that? How have you struggled with that?
- [13:40]
Dawn Burrell
Initially, when I started out cooking, I would tell you that I needed a metric, right? I needed a gauge. And I was like, you know what? I'm going to start competing. I'm going to compete culinarily, and that'll tell me if I'm any good or not, you know, because I didn't know, especially as an athlete. I mean, for a long jumper like me, a tape measure doesn't lie. That's what you did. I was like, so I need something like that. And so I think that the gauge is truly when you move people with food, right? I think for me, my current gauge is, like, when people come and they. They gather for my experience or I do a catering or, you know, I'm doing this tasting event with a number of chefs. I think that when I get the feedback of how the food was incredibly good to them and they were moved by it and the wow as they look at that plate, I think that I consider that a job well done. I think that's the most rewarding part for me and also the metric that I need to know that I. When people come and eat with me, they feel like a sense of warmth, a sense of love. They really open up, their face changes and their eyes widen, and, like, it's just a really thing for me. And I'm even more fulfilled when what I do touches children like that, or touches or teaches someone about food or food resources, you know, I mean, that's even more rewarding for me.
- [15:13]
Chris Duffy
How did you transition from the tape measure to human connection? Because Those are really different ways of.
- [15:20]
Dawn Burrell
Judging yourself, I guess, in educating myself about food and culture and understanding that food and gathering, the understanding that food is a basic need for all human beings and to know that everyone in every culture has their idea of what moves them. Right, or what they love in their cuisines. I think that my transition came where I realized that this is a need and this is food, and people are trusting you to put these things in their body, and they're appreciating it, like, how it makes them feel on the inside. I think that was enough for me. And the more I grow an appreciation of this, the less all of the really fancy, really intricate things about, like, plating and all those things matter. Because food is meant to be enjoyed. It meant to be. It's not meant to be challenging intellectually, I don't think. You know, I think that you can show really cool things with food, and you could do really interesting things that, with slight manipulation, like make a chicharron out of fish skin and making all these things and people like, oh, you know, educating them about how you can utilize the whole thing, the whole animal. I think those things are cool. And it's my favorite thing to do, by the way, is that type of transformation. But having a plate of food that you have to stare at and understand, try to figure out and understand and wonder what it is, that's not really my jam.
- [16:52]
Chris Duffy
You're preaching to the choir, for sure. That's not me either. I like to understand what I'm eating and enjoy it. I don't want to be. There's places where I like to be challenged. That's not one of them.
- [17:01]
Dawn Burrell
But in the beginning, I wanted to know how to do these things, and I can still do some of them. But I realized that that's not food for everybody. And I'm not saying that everybody knows, like, what a rutabaga is, but they know that it's a root and it grows in the ground and they can see it. You know what I'm saying? Oh, this is what it looks like, you know? But if it's manipul into noodles, then how can they possibly know what a rutabaga is? I mean, no disrespect. I love gastronomy. I love, like, for myself, because sometimes I'm like, what else can we do with food? I just want to know from my own, you know, knowledge, but. Because this is my field. But I don't want to serve people in that way. And I love to be a chef, and I Love to cook food, and I love to. To bring people together. But the last one that I said is the most important thing to me, the bringing people together, the communion of everything. Right. And so I love more than anything creating new experiences for people that I'm delving right now into, you know, a type of creativity that I haven't really seen before. And I'm doing it in a way that, that is satisfying to me and elevates not only me, but the artist or the maker or the chef that I'm doing the dinner with. The dinner series is called Sound and Color.
- [18:28]
Chris Duffy
And can you give us, like, the two sentence pitch for what Sound and Color is?
- [18:32]
Dawn Burrell
Sound and Color is a culinary experience. In collaborations with artists and makers, we come together and we create a unique experience, a dining experience for the guests. I love that I'm creating it still because it, you know, every time the experience is different, you know, depending on, like, who I'm doing the event with. I no longer have this, like, vivid example to follow. I can pull bits and pieces from people who are still in the culinary field and then more things in the field of artistry and kind of come up with or find resources for the idea that has been planted within me.
- [19:10]
Chris Duffy
So when we talked about you getting into athletics and getting into track and field, your brother was the mentor who really helped you guide the way and show you the path. Did you have a mentor or something similar when you were getting into cooking and into food?
- [19:24]
Dawn Burrell
Yes, I had a Chef Marcoli here in the city. Used to talk to me a lot, and he taught me a lot. Monica Pope is who I started out with here. And then I have conversations with a chef that I truly admire who's here in the city and is kind of quietly killing it. But he's not seeking, like, all the other things that like, or clawing at. He's not in the, like, the competition to be like the chef, you know, he is just doing his thing authentically, and it is amazing. Chef Ryan Pera. He's also the husband of a really good friend of mine. She founded the nonprofit that I'm on the board of. It's called I'll have what She's Having. And we provide preventative healthcare maintenance for women in the industry and mental health care maintenance for men and women in the industry.
- [20:16]
Chris Duffy
That's beautiful. What's your favorite thing to cook? And then what's your favorite thing to eat?
- [20:21]
Dawn Burrell
I love braises and stews, you know, from all cultures. I think those are my favorite things to make from, like, The Vietnamese fish, caramel pork. You know, like, you stew it down in the fish and the sugar and the herbs in the aromatics, right? To the African peanut stew. A very similar concept, different ingredients. Right. They are all braces, and they're. And they make you feel a certain way, I think. And that's what I like. And then I love a really good salad, you know? And so these are my favorite things to make. My favorite things to eat involve your hands. Like, I love to eat with my hands. That's fufu. That's injera. That's tortilla. You know, anything that I can grab, because I feel like that's the food of the people. Right. It's so good.
- [21:13]
Chris Duffy
It's really cool to hear the way that you draw connections between different cultures and ingredients and how they inspire your cooking. And so many of those foods that you just mentioned are my favorite foods too. So a lot of the way that people know you as a chef publicly is from being on these cooking competition shows. And then, obviously, competition was a big part of your life as an athlete, so it seems like that's a thread that runs through your life and your career. I'm curious. How do you think about competition as a virtue?
- [21:39]
Dawn Burrell
I've never considered competition to be a virtue, but I think that when I think of competition, I think of endurance, and when I think of endurance, I think of the strength to endure the thing. Right. And the reason that I can say the competition might be a virtue is because I know strength is. I think that I've always wanted to test my skills and test my resilience and test my strength, and not only test my courage, but enrich, like, beef up my courage. You know, you have to be courageous to do some of the things that. That I've done, you know, because I've been on the other side of this too. Like, failures can be damaging, you know, And a lot of people have the strength to move through a thing or move toward a thing like competition, or they can't even picture themselves putting themselves out there. They may be the best cook, the best chef that I've ever seen, but they just don't have the thing it takes to do that. Right. I've had many chefs tell me that they don't think that they do. They're lacking the strength and the courage, or they don't see the strength and the courage within themselves, or they are damaged by what they consider to be failure. I'm also living that right now because, like, you know, I am learning how to Process failure differently. And I do get hurt when I don't win because I'm a competitor. I've been a competitor all my life. And I'm like, I've worked really hard for this. What does it mean if I didn't win? You know, it's like, what does it mean? Do I suck? You know, it's like, you know, I had to learn that. It doesn't mean that I've learned that to appreciate my failures, you know, to grow me to the next step, you know, because you learn so much more when you make these mistakes and you don't win or you don't accomplish the goal that you set out to do. You're learning what it might take and what you didn't do. What you did do that was very wrong. And so if you have the courage and the strength to take these lessons to the next endeavor or to the next thing, then that's where the growth happens, right?
- [23:52]
Chris Duffy
One of the questions that people always ask or almost always ask about, you know, me doing professional comedy is, oh, man, what happens when you bomb? What happens when someone heckles you? And people are very attached to hearing the stories about, like, when it goes badly, which is absolutely a big part of the job. But I think it's because they think like, oh, that must be horrible. And I'm. That is actually the job is, like, you get to have the fun, good parts because you do the parts where it goes badly and people don't like it. And if you're not getting those, it means that you're actually not trying hard enough. You're not, like, trying new things. You're not experimenting. You kind of can't avoid that to actually be good. And I imagine it's the same thing in what you do.
- [24:31]
Dawn Burrell
Yeah, of course it is. Like, I just. I filmed Tournament of Champions last November or December.
- [24:38]
Chris Duffy
Something is this Top Chef Tournament of Champions.
- [24:40]
Dawn Burrell
It's Tournament of Champions with Guy Fieri. It's on Food Network, and it's done in a true tournament style. So it has brackets and, you know, head to head competition, like seeded competition and all of that stuff, you know. And I appeared on the episode that we had to. We were competing to be on the bracket, you know, so it was the qualifying round, so to speak. And here I am competing to be on the qualifiers, and I have some people that compete on Top Chef just like me who don't need to compete to be on the qualifiers. Right? They're competing. They already on the bracket. They've bypass it and on the bracket or they competed last year so that they did well and now they're on the bracket. So I had to compete to get on, and I lost. And I was devastated for a couple of days and for many reasons. Right. But what I learned from that is, you know, the Food Network thought my stories are impactful, you know, and they love my interview set. That was the part that I learned the most from what people want to hear, because I don't know, like, I don't know what part of my story people want to know and are entertained by. Right. Or not even entertained, but intrigued by. I learned that telling more and more of it is what it's about for me. It's not necessarily about the win. So maybe I was supposed to lose, you know, because I've gained this knowledge for myself, you know, and this is why I'm able to tell a story to you like this right now.
- [26:20]
Chris Duffy
So often you can't know what was. I'm putting it in quotes. Right. Right or wrong, until way afterwards. In the moment, it's really hard to judge. Right. Like, it seems like it's a great opportunity. I mean, there's so many, like, fables and religious parables about this where it's like, it seems like a blessing. It's actually a curse. It seems like a curse. It's actually a blessing. Right. You never quite know until afterwards, all of that.
- [26:45]
Dawn Burrell
Yeah. You never, never know. And I had to find what was good about that experience. And I. And when I reflect, I truly have a lot of good stories to tell and a lot of nuggets that I can take for the next time if they allow me to compete again.
- [27:03]
Chris Duffy
We're going to take a quick break and then we will be right back with more from Dawn. This episode of how to be a Better Human is brought to you by Wild Grain. I love to cook. I love to bake. Most of all, I love to eat. And the one thing that holds me back from making delicious things like fresh pastries or fresh bread or fresh pasta is it is so much time, such a mess. Which is why Wild Grain has blown my mind. They are a bake from frozen subscription box for artisanal breads, pastries and pastas. They sent me frozen croissants, they sent me frozen chocolate croissants. They sent me fresh pasta. And they sent me sourdough bread and biscuits. I tried them all. Every single one was unbelievably delicious. And all of them. This is the part that I couldn't believe, having made these things from scratch all of them go straight from the freezer to the oven and in 25 minutes or less you are eating food that is so spectacular you can't believe you didn't get it at like a high end bakery. And their boxes are fully customizable so you can get the classic variety. You can get gluten free, you can get 100% vegan plant based options. If you are ready to bring your favorite carbs right to your doorstep, check out Wild Grain and build your own box. Right now and for a limited time, Wild Grain is offering our listeners 30% off their first box. Plus and this is the best signup bonus I've ever heard of. I wish every product worked like this. Plus free croissants in every box. Just go to wildgrain.com human to start your subscription. That's wildgrain.com human or use promo code human at checkout. Hi, I'm Kristen Bell. Carvana makes car buying easy.
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Chris Duffy
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- [29:14]
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- [29:40]
Chris Duffy
Terms apply. Lounge access is subject to change. See capital1.com for details. And we are back. You had won some really, really big awards, right? You won the 2001 World Indoor title in the long jump.
- [30:00]
Dawn Burrell
You.
- [30:00]
Chris Duffy
And I think that then going to the Olympics and realizing like, oh, there are other people who are also really good at this. I can imagine that after having the experience of being like I'm the by far the best, to then be surrounded by people who are all the best in their retrospective places, in some ways that could be a little like destabilizing to think like, but wait, I'm supposed to be the best. How am I surrounded by this many bests?
- [30:28]
Dawn Burrell
So the beauty of being an American athlete is that the most difficult thing to do is to compete at our Olympic trials or our national trials or our national championships, because we are our best competitors, right at that time, we were leading the sprints, the jumps, and so it was very difficult for us to get on our team. So once you do that, because the pressure's on the Olympic Games, the pressure's on the national championships. So once you do that, like, the pressure is a little bit off, you know, at the World Championships, because now it's like, okay, I could just bring everything out. Abandon all fear of not possibly making the team. Okay? And so the thing that is the most interesting that you might know is that we competing as the same people all season. So we see these people internationally, we see these athletes internationally. So we know exactly what we're working with. It's not a new experience every time. It's like, okay, I remember, you know, that she does this, and she can do this. You have your competitors, but you also have to compete against yourself to bring the best out of yourself, because it's not as challenging as you would think, because you know exactly who you're working up against. And you also are there. You know, you've made it to the spotlight, which is the. Which was the most challenging part.
- [31:45]
Chris Duffy
It's interesting to have a moment where you can, like, redefine what success necessarily means, because obviously, like, getting to the Olympics is the success. Like, that is the success. But then there's also this question of, like, are you gonna be the number one? And it's like, that actually doesn't matter, right? Like, you have to decide for yourself what is success.
- [32:09]
Dawn Burrell
What you're talking about is a very internal thing for an athlete, I think, because it requires your mental strength to pull out your best performance. And your measurement of success is, have I done that? Have I pulled out my best performance? And it is, you know, and it is a physical measurement. Like, it is a. You know, something that you can read and identify. We talked about this earlier. You know, there's a metric to it. Like, you ran 994 here. When you are capable of running 988, and you've done that this season, what about this performance was lacking? It's more about, like, your actual performance and what you did, what you're able to pull out of yourself. When you are looking to your left and you're looking to your right and you have the best competitor in the world. Like, you're number one, they're number two and three. Like, that can change up all season long, right? It's about who's mentally strong in that moment when the gun goes off, and who can pull out their best performance in that moment.
- [33:12]
Chris Duffy
So you have that mental strength. You have that ability. And you also have this real precision of, like, this is how far I can jump. This is the line that I know I can do. And you've spent all these years of, you know, having a bunch of events and then whittling it down and whittling it down until you have your very clear specialty. And then you decide, okay, I'm going to switch and I'm going to be a chef. Talk to me about the work that it took to then start doing that whittling again from a place where it's actually quite open. Like, you could be any kind of chef that you want. You could cook any kind of food. You could do anything. It doesn't have to be a chef. How do you then reapply that to a new field, this new arena where you're trying to then figure out what your thing is Again, when you are.
- [33:55]
Dawn Burrell
Challenging yourself and you're entering a new, new thing and you're on this stage, like, you have to believe that you can even do better than before, by the way. You have to believe in what is in you that has not yet been seen. I think that is the key to have so much courage to pull out and so much focus to pull out what you have not seen in yourself yet is the key. And so when you enter into these new fields, and I've tried to challenge myself way before I could do the things that I can do now, culinarily, for example, because I felt like one day I'd be able to do it. I believe in myself enough to know that I may not have the skills right now, but I am getting myself ready for the time period that when I get my chance, you know. And so I just believe that I can do it and not do the work that will bring it to life and bring it to fruition.
- [34:52]
Chris Duffy
It feels like as I'm kind of prodding at or pushing at questions of, like, competition or success, we keep coming back to really, like, questions of purpose. And then also this idea that, like, you're not fixed and that you can actually grow and get better and improve, and you have. You kind of combine those two ideas of, like, I'm going to have a really clear purpose, and then I'm going to do the work that it takes to get towards that purpose, and that that's really what is driving these changes.
- [35:20]
Dawn Burrell
That's exactly it. I think I'm still learning that, like, what is my purpose? My purpose is. I think my purpose is helping people grow, bringing people together, telling this story. I'm living these things so I could tell this story that people can. So people can recognize that they can do these things too, and that it. Life is not going to be perfect. You are going to fail. And it is okay. You're not always going to feel great, but you do it anyway. You do it anyway, and you just keep doing it. And as long as you keep going, you will be able to achieve and accomplish all that you set out to do or all that you're intended to do. Because sometimes when you set out to do something, it might not be the best thing for you. You know, it might be that you want to be this, like, oh, I want to be this Michelin star chef. Well, maybe the intention is for you to create a whole bunch of Michelin star chefs. And as long as you grab hold of what I call it, my heart song, you grab hold of that thing that you love so dearly, and you just take everything, Everything as a lesson, everything as fuel. As fuel and guidance towards your purpose instead of feeling bad because it didn't go your way.
- [36:36]
Chris Duffy
When I was younger, it felt like all of this stuff was tied up just in career. Like, it was like, okay, if I can have this career success, that's the whole thing. And then as I've gotten older, I have family that I care about that I want to take care of. I have relationships that I care about that I want to take care of. And sometimes it has felt like, well, that's separate from, like, success or from my goals. But then when I. I zoom out, it's really like, well, how do you build a life that you're. That feels like a success? And sometimes the job and the career successes are separate from that. They're not actually as entwined as they were when I was younger.
- [37:11]
Dawn Burrell
All of these things are intertwined right now. You know, for me, right before Top Chef, my mother suffered a stroke, and, like, she was my why, you know, and I was like, I need to get home. I'm gonna set myself up better so that I can help with this family situation. And, you know, and then I pull my nieces and nephews into it, and I try to pour into them, and am I being a successful member of this family by bringing them into whatever it is that I'm doing, you know, to see if they want to be a part of it and helping them grow? And then, you know, to right now where I'M having to shift how I'm doing work a little bit because my parents are getting older, and I have to contribute directly to their household, you know, so that I can make sure that they're functioning and that they're safe. All of these things or me attribute to success. If I'm able to balance all of this and endure all of this and still do my work, I feel like it's a job well done in this life, you know, and so it's not always about. It's not always about the fame and the success and the. And the awards, you know, and your professional career. It's how you balance it all and how you tell your stories so that, you know, people know that they're not alone. People have family situations that are challenging, but they're still able to do what they love with the right perspective.
- [38:31]
Chris Duffy
I mean, to me, I'm so much more impressed by those people, right? By people like you, where you're like, hey, I take care of people who I love. I'm taking care of my family. I'm taking care of my parents, and I'm holding myself to these standards of not like perfection, but what are my goals? What do I believe I can work towards? Like, having a vision while still taking care of people around you? Because it's also. It's really easy to be extremely successful and a terrible human being. Right? Like, that's actually easier. So I think that. I think when you think of the whole picture, that just, to me, much more impressive.
- [39:04]
Dawn Burrell
Thank you. Thank you. I'm trying, and, you know, it gets harder because, you know, the people that you're caring for, they're getting older, so they need more, so the need increases. But, you know, as long as I am willing to pivot slightly or shift how I want to do things so that I can be available, I think I'm doing a good job, you know, and I have been able to do that, you know, consistently for the last few years. I still feel fulfilled in my career and in everything that I'm doing.
- [39:38]
Chris Duffy
Well, related to that, what's your relationship to perfection now? Now, with your athletic background and your work ethic and competitive spirit, like, how do you think about your relationship to perfection now?
- [39:48]
Dawn Burrell
I've never been married to perfection. I don't even like perfection. I don't think that it exists. But I do love excellence. My goal is always aspiring to be excellent. But I do think there's value in imperfection, because that's where we. That's what makes us all who we are. Those Parts, you know, and so I'm not married to perfection. I don't like it.
- [40:12]
Chris Duffy
I love that answer. Not a lot of chefs get an opportunity to, like, watch themselves back. It's very rare that they have, like, footage of themselves. But you were on Top Chef. You've done a lot of televised cooking. Is there anything that you learned about yourself and your cooking from having this ability to watch yourself back afterwards?
- [40:34]
Dawn Burrell
I really, I like to watch how I'm growing. My internal battle is it. I always feel like I suck. You know, I'm just going to be.
- [40:44]
Chris Duffy
Honest, relatable to me, very relatable.
- [40:49]
Dawn Burrell
And so to see moments when I didn't suck and I was like, oh, my gosh, like, look at me. And so it gives me the strength and the confidence to keep going. This is how that's my method of going and growing. But I also see myself in that moment when I didn't have it. And to see myself thrive, I'm like, what, girl? Like, what were you thinking? Like, you, you did it, and you did very well. And to hear the, like, the nation or those that are your fan base echo it is, like, even more rewarding, gratifying. And so I enjoy watching myself in a moment when I was scared to death from the outside after it's always been already been filmed, and seeing myself thrive in a way that I didn't imag.
- [41:38]
Chris Duffy
In the kitchen, you have to make a lot of decisions really quickly. How do you gain and maintain confidence and trust in making rapid fire decisions even as things are happening that are unpredictable or that maybe aren't going as smoothly as you would have hoped ahead of time?
- [41:54]
Dawn Burrell
My strength lies in that my athletic background taught me to be good under pressure. And so these decisions or quick pivots are easy for me because I'm always thinking about, like, what in this performance could make this better? Like, what can I do right now to make this better? Just as when I was long jumping, I was approaching the board, and I would have to adjust a little bit because I was like, oh, the wind is behind me. Let me slow down a little bit. The wind is in front of me. I need to push a little bit harder. So it made it easy for me to transition at, you know, because I've always made these, like, acute decisions that can fix a problem, and that is a real part of what being a chef is about.
- [42:40]
Chris Duffy
When you're starting a new recipe, when you're coming up with a new dish, where do you like to begin? What does the creative process look like for you.
- [42:47]
Dawn Burrell
Most times I begin with an ingredient and I figure out what I would like to do to make this ingredient shine or a culture. Like what. What are ingredients that are heavily used in this culture and how can I bring them together in a way that reflects me and the culture in its best light? You know, so those are the two things that I think I'm led by when I'm creating something. And the season, of course. The season, the ingredient, the culture. If we're talking about vegetables, you know.
- [43:19]
Chris Duffy
Maybe you could share in kind of like a live reading of one of your recipes that you have on your website, if that's. If you're open to that.
- [43:26]
Dawn Burrell
Yeah. Did y' all pull one?
- [43:28]
Chris Duffy
It's the kabocha squash and aged Cheddar strata. It's a.
- [43:31]
Dawn Burrell
So this is a recipe that I came up with for Thanksgiving. It's a kabocha squash with aged cheddar strata. Here are the ingredients. 6 eggs 2 cups of milk 1 cup of heavy cream. 7 cups of stale crusty bread, like a baguette. 2 cups of aged white cheddar 2 and a half cups of kabocha squash that is thinly sliced because it's a very rigid squash. 1 cup of red onions, thinly sliced 2 cloves of garlic, grated 5 sage leaves and a chiffonade 3 sprigs of fresh thyme, picked, A quarter cup of white wine, 1 teaspoon of chili flake, 1 tablespoon of honey, 1 tablespoon of salt, plus more if needed, and a pinch of black pepper. You'll preheat the oven to 400 degrees. Melt butter in a medium saucepan and set aside in a large bowl. When you toss together the red onions, the sliced kabocha squash, sage thyme and the grated garlic. Then you'll add the melted butter with the honey and the olive oil and white wine sauce and the chili flakes and toss to coat. So after you toss them together, you'll spread them on a sheet tray and then you will. After you spread them on the sheet tray, you'll roast them in the 400 degree oven for about 20, 30 minutes until they're caramelized. Remove them from the oven and you'll set them aside to cool because you. You don't want them to curdle the egg mixture. And then you'll reduce the oven temperature to 350 for the straw itself. Meanwhile, you'll place the torn bread and in a large mixing bowl and then in another bowl, you'll combine the eggs, milk and heavy cream, salt and pepper. You'll then add the bread to the egg mixture and you'll put three quarters of the cheese and also the roasted squash mix into the bowl with the egg and bread mix. You'll mix that all together and then you'll place that mixture in a casserole. When you'll put the remaining cheese on top of it. Oh, you'll soak it for an hour and then you will bake it in a 350 degree oven for 45 minutes covered with foil. You'll remove the foil and return the casserole to the oven for an additional 2030 minutes until it's golden on the top. Take it out of the oven and you'll serve it while hot or you can allow it to cool completely and cut it into portions before serving.
- [46:02]
Chris Duffy
People can find that recipe, all of it written out and a beautiful photo on your website chefdonbrail.com recipes so Chef Donbrell, it's been such a pleasure to talk to you and I really appreciate you making the time and sharing your wisdom and your expertise with us here today.
- [46:16]
Dawn Burrell
Yes, thank you for having me.
- [46:22]
Chris Duffy
That is it for this episode of how to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to today's guest chef, Dawn Burrell. You can find her on social media. Efefdon Burrell, I am your host Chris Duffy and you can find more from me, including my weekly newsletter and other projects@chrisduffycomedy.com how to be a Better Human is stewed together by a team of culinary professionals. On the TED side we've got the cultural taste buds of Daniela Balerazo, Ban Chang, Michelle Quint, Chloe Shasha Brooks, Valentina Bohanini, Lainey Lot, Tanzika, Sung Many Vong, Antonia Ley and Joseph de Bruyne. This episode was fact checked by Julia Dickerson and Matthias Salas who never want to leave a false taste in your mouth. On the PRX side they are all gold medal athletes and currently executing a flawless long jump. Morgan Flannery, Nor Gill, Patrick Grant and Jocelyn Gonzalez. Thanks again to you for listening. You make our career journeys possible. Without you we would be unemployed and just talking into a computer alone. Please share this episode with a person in your life who you think would enjoy it. We will be back next week with even more how to Be a Better Human. Until then, thanks for listening and take care of.
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