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- [00:01]
Podcast Host
TED Talks Daily is supported by Northwestern Mutual. If you want a better way to plan, relax and retire, then tune in to the award winning podcast A Better Way to Money. It's here to help you feel better about your finances, to help you uncover your own blind spots and find opportunities as you make progress toward your goals. In each episode, experts have deeper conversations about how real people like you are tackling their finances, from navigating a job change to talking about money with your family to retirement. Listen to A Better Way to Money wherever you find your podcasts or learn more@nm.com the Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance Company, Milwaukee, Wisconsin this episode is sponsored by Lumen. Your metabolism is like your body's engine. It powers everything you do from how you move to how you feel. And when it's running smoothly, you feel the difference More energy, Better sleep, Improved recovery. Lumen is the world's first handheld metabolic coach that helps you understand what your body is burning power, fats or carbs just by breathing into it each morning. Then the app gives you daily nutrition guidance personalized to your body's needs. This summer, stay in sync with your metabolism and feel your best. Whether you're active, resting or anything in between. The warmer months are coming. Spring back into your health and fitness. Go to Lumen Me ted to get 10% off your lumen. That's L U M E N ME TED for 10% off your purchase. Thank you Lumen for sponsoring this episode.
- [01:31]
Vanta Representative
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- [02:36]
Chris Duffy
You'Re listening to how to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. On this show, I have spent the past five years interviewing writers, scientists, and all sorts of experts. And increasingly, I've come to believe that if you want to be a better human, if you want to treat other people better, and to live a good life, well, one of the most important things you can do is cultivate a good sense of humor. The world desperately needs more people who are able to laugh at their own shortcomings, to notice absurdity, and to connect with others over a shared delight. And the great news is that we can find humor even in the most unlikely places and situations. So today on the show, we've got a compilation of moments from interviews in the past on our podcast that got deeper into this idea. The more that you are present and attentive to the things that bring you joy, the times when you are unexpectedly delighted, and the conversations and people who leave you giggling and giddy, the more that you'll find that you can really unearth humor anywhere, even in the supposed seriousness and hushed reverence of a silent meditation. Here's a snippet of my conversation with Dan Harris, host of the podcast 10% Happier, talking about the unexpected similarities between humor and meditation. This is one of the ways that you for sure won me over is, you know, I'm a comedian. I really resonate with things when they're funny. I know you don't necessarily identify as a comedian, but you have a great sense of humor. There are hilarious jokes in your book. There are really funny jokes in your TED Talk. And I think that is not necessarily a thing that I actually associated at all with mindfulness or meditation is funny and laughing. Right. Like, I think about them as, like, Zen and kind of like everything passes me by. But, you know, reading your book and hearing you talk, I, I was able to see them in a different way of like, oh, laughter isn't the opposite of that. It can be part of it as well.
- [04:29]
Dan Harris
Absolutely. Because it's my job now. I'm like, kind of like the beat reporter for Buddhism. I get. I, I know all of these, a huge percentage of the living teachers today because they come through my show and I write about them in my books. And so I know a lot of these people. Like, I really know them. This, you know, I have din meals with them, I do business with them. They sleep over at the house. I really know these people and they're really funny. They don't tend to emphasize the humor in their public facing work, which I'm not quite sure why that is. I'm a little bit glad because it's created a market opening for me. But I do think that if you spend any amount of time taking a look at your mind, you will have to laugh eventually. Because it's ridiculous. I mean, the teacher, the meditation teacher that I work with personally, his name is Joseph Goldstein. He's, you know, a great friend of mine and just a huge figure in my life. He uses that word, it, it comes up a lot. And because if you are looking at your mind, I mean, it's, it's chaos and, and it's embarrassing, it's humiliating and. But after a while you can learn to laugh at it. And I find that that spirit is shot through many of the, the teachers that I know. The greats don't take themselves seriously because how could you, after looking at your mind for an extended period of time?
- [05:54]
Chris Duffy
There's also this thing that I've been thinking about a lot with humor. How you have to be really present to notice the unusual, weird, ridiculous things in the world. Like a lot of our day to day, we're programmed both by society and just by the sheer fact that so many people, pieces of stimulus come at us. If we've seen something a million times, we just ignore it. And yet when you start to really look at things, that's when you can see the funny. And I noticed that comedians that I know, one of the few things that they all have in common, even if they have wildly different styles, is that anytime they notice something funny or strange, they take a note of it. That is actually quite a similar practice to some forms of Buddhist meditation, to just be noticing and paying attention to the things that go through our heads and through our perception.
- [06:40]
Dan Harris
Gold star. That's a great observation. Observation is a huge part of comedy and you can't observe if you're asleep. So for sure there is an overlap right there between comedy and contemplation. Because contemplation or meditation is all about waking up. Because we, we live our lives in this, in this kind of automatic pilot and not much can get done when you're in that mode. And sadly, we're in that mode a lot. You know, it's bringing to mind a story about how. And I wrote about this in my first book where I was on the beach with a friend of mine who's a very successful comedy writer. This was many years ago, but he's gone on to be way more successful. And he spotted me reading a book about Buddhism and he said, I don't think I could go down that path because I need to stay judgmental because my comedy comes from being judgmental. But I wish that the technology worked that well that you could start meditating and you're not going to be judgmental or cranky or crazy or whatever. All the stuff. It doesn't. What happens is you just get to be more familiar with the way the mind works. And so I think it can put your comedy on steroids because you can notice the judgment that's going to come inevitably and that instead of being owned by it, you can make a joke out of it. And that's really helpful.
- [08:01]
Chris Duffy
We are going to have so many more laughter filled moments on this show, including the comedy that you can find in nature, on stage and in even the hardest and most challenging of circumstances. But first we are going to take a quick break for some ads. So we will be right back after this. This episode is sponsored by bombas. Summer's here and we are all chasing something. A little break, a big goal, or just that elusive perfect summer vibe. But one thing that should never be part of the chase. Bad socks. Bombas make socks that actually keep up whether you are running a marathon or running late to brunch. Their socks are breathable, moisture wicking and built to fight blisters. I wear Bombas every day. Yes, that includes right now. I am not just saying that. I know this is an ad, but I am obsessed with Bomba socks. I love them. I truly love their socks. I'm so glad to be advertising for them because I tell people about their socks all the time for free. It's not just socks though. They got buttery soft T shirts. They've got sweat wicking underwear. They've got waterproof slides that are ready for the beach, the airport or just your backyard. And dress socks. Even Bombas really has you covered. And once again, I am obsessed with Bombas socks. I wear them every day. I am wearing them right now. I am not just saying this for the ad. And best of all, every time you buy an item, Bombas donates one to someone in need. So head over to bombas.com and use code human for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O M B A S.com code human at checkout bombas.com and use code Human.
- [09:44]
Podcast Host
TED Talks Daily is supported by Northwestern Mutual. If you want a better way to plan, relax and retire, then tune in to the award winning podcast A Better Way to Money. In each episode, experts have deeper conversations about how real people like you are tackling their finances. From navigating a job change to talking about money with your family to retirement. Listen to a Better Way to money wherever you find your podcasts or or learn more@nm.com the Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance Company Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
- [10:15]
Verizon Representative
Popsicles, sprinklers, a cool breeze. Talk about refreshing. You know what else is refreshing this summer? A brand new phone with Verizon. Yep. Get a new phone on any plan with select phone, trade in in MyPlan and lock down a low price for three years on any plan with MyPlan. This is a deal for everyone whether you're a new or existing customer. Swing by Verizon today for our best phone deals. 3 year price guarantee applies to then current based monthly rate only. Additional terms and conditions apply for all offers.
- [10:51]
Chris Duffy
And we are back on today's episode. We're hearing from a range of guests from our podcast about humor and up top. I told you that I believe that you can find something joyful and hilarious just about anywhere. Well now to prove it in this next clip we are going to find humor in the literal dirt in the ground where you walk. Here is Alexis Nicole Nelson talking about the surprising moments of delight that can be found while foraging for wild plants. I also am curious about the times when people are surprised to see you doing what you're doing or foraging because they just don't understand what foraging is like. Have you ever had someone spot you foraging and have a really strange or interesting reaction to that?
- [11:34]
Alexis Nicole Nelson
Absolutely. My first year making tiktoks, I was gathering some mugwort around this time of year and two women who were just power walking together stopped in their tracks and were just like what are you doing? And I was like, oh, you know, just gathering some aromatic herbs. I wanted to roast some potatoes tonight and I needed some mugwort and here it is. Honestly, it was a great interaction. They had so many questions and for them it just wasn't. It was just not something they ever expected to see anybody doing. I think my identity maybe made it more surprising, but even if it was someone their own age, I think they would have been really surprised. And those are always really delightful moments when people approach it with just like a childlike curiosity. I love those times. There are definitely other times when people approach it from a point of apprehension being like, oh my God, I don't know what that six foot tall, very loud, gregariously dressed black woman is doing, so I'm gonna go ask her about it. But I like to think that usually I end up changing that apprehension to delight almost every time. It definitely hasn't worked every single Time.
- [12:57]
Chris Duffy
I used to teach at an elementary school. I taught fifth grade. And I remember so clearly that one day we were reading a book. It wasn't even a science lesson or something. It was just a book where it kind of came up incidentally. And it said, like. And they picked the lettuce out of the ground, and the kids were like, lettuce comes from the dirt. Oh, that's the most disgusting thing I've ever heard. It grows out of dirt. Which is, like, hilarious. Of course. Like, you have to learn that at some point. But. But the other thing is. And I. I feel like this is maybe. I wonder if this is the. The thing that must not be said in foraging circles, but I'm like, they also have kind of a point. It's a little gross that things come out of the dirt and that they're fed by poop and, like, rotting things. I'm like, you know what? It is gross. And it's delicious. And that's just how things work.
- [13:44]
Alexis Nicole Nelson
And that's life, baby. It is delightful, and it is often icky, and there are usually bugs. That's life.
- [13:55]
Chris Duffy
That's a great phrase for life. I put that on a T shirt. I'll buy that T shirt. Obviously, even in that short clip, you can already just hear how much fun Alexis is. She's got such a great laugh and such a real spirit of play to her work. That ability to do big work while not taking yourself too seriously, that's something that the artists and writers Wendy McNaughton and Laurel Brakeman are masters at. They're living proof that giving yourself permission to be silly and goofy sometimes can foster a real deep creativity. Wendy and Laurel, as friends, they push each other to find delight and joy in the everyday. And together they created something called Attention Club, a group dedicated to encouraging the act of noticing. So much of humor, so much of comedy, of laughter, starts with just paying close attention. And for Wendy and Laurel, a great way to dive in headfirst is with other people. Wendy often encourages people to look at and connect with a stranger. And at first, just looking at someone you don't know, well, that can be really uncomfortable. People often start laughing right away at how absurd it feels. But then it can lead to something really deep. Here's Wendy.
- [15:07]
Wendy McNaughton
I ask people to turn to each other, ideally a stranger, or it can be something they know, but ideally a stranger. And then draw each other for 60 seconds with two rules. The first rule is you're never allowed to pick your pen up off the paper. And the second rule Is you're never allowed to look down at the paper upon which you're drawing. Okay, sounds totally disorienting. It is. But the actual point of that is that you are looking at somebody closely for 60 seconds without looking away. And moreover, you are allowing yourself to be looked at for 60 seconds. So it creates this immediate vulnerability and openness and exchange between two people that, I mean, has led to people becoming friends, you know, or, like, exchanging, you know, their social media information from different countries, and they're staying in touch. But more so it just takes off this little bit of the armor that we all have. So as we go forward, we're open to that exchange. And then when you follow that up with a prompt like Laurel gave, describe.
- [16:11]
Laurel Brakeman
The last time you were wildly happy, and you told the person who drew you that story, and they told you yours, and we had each person take a few notes down on the drawing they did. And, you know, there's nothing like being in a room of strangers while they recount the last time they were wildly happy to each other using all sensory detail. It's so much fun. There is just such an incredible energy. And you could do it with someone you know. Well, you could do it with someone you don't know. Well, I do think it's fun with strangers, but it's something easy to do, even around the dinner table. And part of the reason I think it's so effective is, like, the drawing is quote, unquote, bad, right? Like, you don't look down at the paper. Like, you draw somebody. It looks like a Picasso, you know, but, like, not a good Picasso.
- [16:56]
Chris Duffy
Yeah, there's like a floating eyeball.
- [16:59]
Alexis Nicole Nelson
Oh, yeah.
- [17:00]
Laurel Brakeman
You know, like, it's a very weird thing, and it forces you into. Oh, my God, this was enjoyable. It's actually a quote, unquote good drawing, even though this looks nothing like the person. And I think that from the. From that place, then you're like, okay, we've reframed, like, who is bad and good at this? And the point isn't to make it look like the actual thing or the person. And I think that's huge. Goes back to, you know, what we were saying around how to help people, you know, feel more creative, I think, and how they lose it. I think part of it is not just being shamed, perhaps, by someone in your life saying, like, oh, well, that doesn't look like our house, but it's also because you start to have tastes that you can't possibly meet. And so I think that's a part of like, particularly if you, you're someone who loves the creative arts like you may love great. You have your favorite artists, you have your favorite comics, and you realize you're not that good. And so instead of pushing through to get to the place where you find your own unique way of doing it, you're so intimidated because it doesn't look like your heroes that you also shut down. And so I think all of this work is really about showing people like, you know, we're bad forever, all the time, you know, even though those of us who do it as a job. And so any of these kinds of ways where you can make yourself kind of productively uncomfortable or bad in practice is just so much, much fun.
- [18:25]
Chris Duffy
We're gonna take another quick break and then we will be right back.
- [18:42]
Verizon Representative
Popsicles, sprinklers, a cool breeze. Talk about refreshing. You know what else is refreshing this summer? A brand new phone with Verizon. Yep. Get a new phone on any plan with Select Phone. Trade in and MyPlan and lock down a low price for three years on any plan with MyPlan. This is a deal for everyone whether you're a new or existing customer. Swing by Verizon today for our best phone deals. 3 year price guarantee applies to then current based monthly rate only. Additional terms and conditions apply for all offers.
- [19:12]
Chris Duffy
And now a next level moment from AT&T business. Say you've sent out a gigantic shipment of pillows and they need to be there in time for International Sleep day. You've got AT and T5G so you're fully confident, but the vendor isn't responding. And International Sleep Day is tomorrow. Luckily, AT&T 5G lets you deal with any issues with ease so the pillows will get delivered and everyone can sleep soundly, especially you. AT&T5G requires a compatible plan and device coverage not available everywhere. Learn more@att.com 5G Network.
- [19:42]
Podcast Host
This episode is sponsored by Lumen. Your metabolism is like your body's engine. It powers everything you do from how you move to how you feel. And when it's running smoothly, you feel the difference. More energy, better sleep, improved recovery. Lumen is the world's first handheld metabolic coach that helps you understand what your body is burning fats or carbs just by breathing into it each morning. Then the app gives you daily nutrition guidance personalized to your body's needs. This summer, stay in sync with your metabolism and feel your best, whether you're active, resting or anything in between. The warmer months are coming. Spring back into your health and fitness. Go to lumen me Ted to get 10% off your lumen. That's L U M e n me Ted for 10% off your purchase. Thank you, Lumen, for sponsoring this episode.
- [20:38]
Chris Duffy
Hey, everyone. Thank you for making our podcast a part of your routine. We really appreciate you listening, and we want to make the show even better. We want to make all of your favorite TED podcasts better. So we put together a quick listener survey. We would love for you to take it. Tell us what's working, tell us what we could do better. Tell us things that you're interested in. It just takes a few minutes, but it helps us to shape all of these shows and to get to know you a little bit better, which is really fun. Head to the episode description and there's a hyperlink in there. Click that link and take our survey. Thank you, thank you, thank you. And we are back. Today, we are talking about the surprising places and unexpected moments in which we can find humor all around us. Lear Debessinet is the founder of Public Works and the resident director at the Public Theater in New York City. For Lear, one of the biggest joys of her work is getting to create a spectacle, a striking display or performance. But as she's come to learn, spectacles are happening all around us, not just on the stage. For Lear, traveling to work every day in New York City, she's constantly witnessing spectacles. And during our conversation, talking to her about this idea, it made me realize how many memories and how many images I have in my head of extremely silly things that I saw while growing up in New York City. So I grew up in New York City, and I was obsessed for at least three or four years of my childhood with this street performer who performed at the South Street Seaport. And her name was the Squirrel Lady. And what she would do, her act was she would stand on an upturned, like, mail crate, right? So she just had a little stage. And then if you gave her a dollar, she would take a sleeve of saltine crackers and she would destroy. Eat them like a little squirrel. Like, just, like, making, like, spraying saltine crackers everywhere. And I was like, that person is Michelangelo. That is my Da Vinci. I was like, that is the greatest genius of our time. And I would beg, constantly beg, like, can I have a dollar and can we please go see the squirrel Lady? And to this day, I still think it's one of the most incredible pieces of art I've ever seen.
- [22:39]
Laurel Brakeman
This is now a new obsession of mine. And my question is, like, is she available?
- [22:43]
Chris Duffy
Because I would like her to be in my next production. My belief that she retired to some mansion funded by her squirrel performance. But I haven't seen her in literally a decade, so I don't know. But if she was in a production, I would fly anywhere in the world for that ticket. I would certainly go anyway. There is no limit to the types of performers you can find in New York City, but also, more broadly, to your point, in the world, anywhere there are people who have these little unusual, strange things that would be perfect for Spectacles.
- [23:16]
Vanta Representative
Yes.
- [23:16]
Laurel Brakeman
And my dream is to sort of.
- [23:18]
Chris Duffy
Walk through life noticing those things and then to ask a person to do.
- [23:22]
Laurel Brakeman
Like, whatever that thing is, to do, like, exactly that in the production and to somehow create the conditions within the.
- [23:30]
Chris Duffy
Story where that whatever that person is.
- [23:33]
Laurel Brakeman
Doing makes sense in a storytelling way. That was my dream.
- [23:41]
Chris Duffy
Two people whose jobs involve creating the conditions in which any story can be told are Dave Nadelberg and Neal Katcher, creators of the hit podcast and live show Mortified. These guys help people reframe their most tragically embarrassing childhood or teenage diary entries, and they turn them into gloriously funny, heartwarming stories that they share with a live audience on stage. It is mortifying. It is so funny, and it is an idea that we can all tap into. So I have done stand up, but I also started. I was a fifth grade teacher, and the thing that has influenced my life most from being a fifth grade teacher is the idea of a growth mindset, right? That, like, almost nothing about who we are is fixed, that you can. You maybe have natural abilities or talents, but that you can build these muscles. And I think a muscle that Mortified is so great at showing is the muscle of, like, you can build the muscle of laughing at yourself. You can build the muscle of, like, taking this stuff and finding it to be funny and transforming it into a strength rather than a private, shameful weakness.
- [24:46]
Dave Nadelberg
Life is not always kind. You know, it's a very comforting thing, the reminder that we mess up. And like the end of. At the end of every Mortified podcast and stage show, we say, what did we learn? Well, we learned a million things, but most of all, we learned that we are freaks and we are fragile and we all survived. To me, I take all that to heart. It's not just like a pithy thing, because I think these are valuable. Like, there is a lesson to that. And you could. Whether that comes from a thing like Mortified or. Or whether you can apply that same logic to a million other things in life. Did I say life? Weird. I think I did. I think I said laugh.
- [25:24]
Chris Duffy
I didn't even notice it as weird, but I love it. I have faith you'll do it better in the future, though.
- [25:29]
Dave Nadelberg
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. Thank you.
- [25:31]
Chris Duffy
Growth Mindset. Finally, to close out this episode, I want to leave you with a piece of a conversation that I had with Palestinian peace activist, author and travel company founder Aziz Abusara. Aziz spends the majority of his time thinking and talking about extremely difficult topics, particularly now with the situation in Gaza. But as a person, Aziz is anything but dark and depressing. He's got one of the best senses of humor of anyone I've ever met. And talking to Aziz about that, about the contrast between the seriousness of the work that he does and the lightness of his person, it illustrates for me a really important point that it is possible to find humor in even the most devastating situation. Not always and not for everyone. It doesn't mean you have to or that everything is funny. But sometimes humor can be more than silliness and goofing around. Sometimes laughter can be a way to momentarily release tension and to find a bit of lightness in the dark. Humor can be a survival mechanism, too. You know, we got to spend a fair amount of time together in, in Vancouver, and it was such a pleasure to get to know you and to see your public talk, but also to have dinner with you and talk casually. And something that I've been thinking about since then, when I think about our interactions, is how there are ways that identity can really get flattened when we talk about these big issues like the conflict in Palestine and Israel. There's this way in which you, for example, can be presented only as this very serious person, right? This victim of the conflict, but also a peacemaker. But you are also so much more than that. You're hilarious, you're funny, you're complex, you're not any one thing. So how do you personally push back against that?
- [27:13]
Aziz Abusara
It's a challenge I've faced through my whole career. One, I use a lot of humor in everything I do because that's part of who I am. And if I was as brave as you, I would have done stand up comedy more often. I've done it a couple of times and, man, it is so hard to put yourself out there and hope people will laugh in the first 30 seconds of speaking.
- [27:36]
Chris Duffy
Well, certainly if there's one of the two of us that's brave, it may be that neither of us is brave, but certainly it's not me. You are.
- [27:43]
Aziz Abusara
You absolutely are. But yeah, I try to definitely show that I am not only one identity. I don't want you to only look at Palestinians with pity or look at us only as victims. We are much more than that. I grew up, like many Palestinians, loving poetry. I started writing poetry when I was 7 or 8. I was terrible at poetry, but I still wrote poetry. When I was that young, I used to call the radio almost every week to read my poetry. Now I'm very embarrassed of the kind of poetry I read on the radio. But that's how our culture is so different than what people think. And often I get like, oh, your culture is so much a culture of death, which is. That's not the culture I grew up with. You have people like Samih Al Qasim, who wrote, the day I'm killed, my killer will rifle through my pockets and he'll find three tickets. One to peace, one to the fields and the rain, and one to the conscience of a humankind. I beg you, my killer, do not waste such a thing. Do not ignore these tickets. Take them. I beg you to travel. And I say, that is one of our most famous poets. And it's not a poem about glorifying death. It's telling his killer in a time where he feels so much conflict around him. I don't want this to continue, even if the price is my death. I don't want you to live in this reality. And that's what I want the world to know. We not only victims, you know, even in these hard moments and looking at what's happening in Gaza and so much death and so much suffering and so much pain, if you only see people as victims, if you only see them in one small box, it's much easier also to dehumanize them. It's much easier to not see them as normal people who have dreams, who want to be teachers, want to be doctors, want to be comedians, want to be all these things. And that's what I want people to know about me. And I want people to know about Palestinians in general, Muslims, Arabs in America. That's where we start.
- [29:50]
Chris Duffy
That is it for today's episode of how to Be a Better Human. I have been writing a book about all of this that is called Humor Me. It's going to be out in January 2026. But before that comes out, we thought it'd be fun to explore some of these ideas that have been rattling about in my head on this podcast, and we're going to do that a few more times over the next few months. I hope that you enjoyed this first taste as much as we did. I had a great time doing this special shout out to Morgan Flannery who was the producer on this episode and pulled all these clips together and there is so much more to think about and discuss when it comes to laughter, humor and being a better human. So thank you so much to today's wonderful guests. I am your host Chris Duffy and you can find more from me@chrisduffycomedy.com how to be a Better Human is put together by a team who are genuinely hilarious delights one and all. On the TED side we've got high level comedic masterminds Daniela Balorazzo, Banban Cheng, Michelle Quint, Chloe Shasha Brooks, Valentina Bohanini, Lainey Lott, Tanzika, Sun Manivong, Antonia Ley and Joseph de Bruyne. This episode was fact checked by Julia Dickerson and Mattea Salas who laugh at the very idea of a factual inconsistency. On the PRX side we've got Legends of Stage, Screen and Morgan Flannery, Norgill, Patrick Grant and Jocelyn Gonzalez. Thanks again to you for listening. You are what make this episode possible. You are what make this whole podcast possible. Please share this episode with a person who you love to laugh with. We will be back next week with more how to be a Better Human. Until then, take care and thanks again.
- [31:21]
Podcast Host
This episode is sponsored by Lumen. Your metabolism is like your body's engine. It powers everything you do from how you move to how you feel. And when it's running smoothly, you feel the difference. More energy, Better sleep, Improved recovery. Lumen is the world's first handheld metabolic coach that helps you understand what your body is burning fats or carbs just by breathing into it each morning. Then the app gives you daily nutrition guidance personalized to your body's needs. This summer, stay in sync with your metabolism and feel your best. Whether you're active, resting or anything in between. The warmer months are coming. Spring back into your health and fitness. Go to Lumen Me ted to get 10% off your lumen. That's L U M E N me Ted for 10% off your purchase. Thank you Lumen for sponsoring this episode.
- [32:12]
Chris Duffy
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