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- [00:02]
Chris Duffy
You're listening to how to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. If I had to pick a single thing that I think is the most important thing when it comes to friendships, relationships and even your relationship with yourself, I'd say it's being able to communicate honestly about what it is that you're feeling. Today's guest, the inimitable writer and podcaster and woman around town, Aminatou, so is extremely good at this. Aminatou gives honest advice to strangers in her newsletter. She wrote a book, Big How We Keep each Other Close with her friend Ann Friedman, where one of the memorable sections was Being Very Honest about how they went to couples counseling together as platonic friends to figure out how to navigate issues and communicate better and stay connected. She and Anne also hosted the popular podcast Call youl Girlfriend for years. Call youl Girlfriend was always funny and fun, but it was also really refreshingly honest. As an example, here's a clip from one episode where Anne and Aminatou are talking about being self employed.
- [01:01]
Aminatou Sow
We were having a conversation some months ago about the ways in which the skills we have had to develop in working for ourselves and on our own do and don't translate to staff employment. And also about some of the myths surrounding self employment that I think are perpetuated by a lot of self labeled creative class digital people who are like, this is a thing that everyone should aspire to. So we kind of wanna talk about this whole cocktail of stuff, right? I mean it probably helps to talk about how we ended up being self employed, right? I agree. How did you end up self employed? Woo child. My serotonin went to war. My dopamine went to war. Nobody is back yet. That's how you ended up self employed? That's how I ended up self employ. All my life I had to fight for myself.
- [01:58]
Chris Duffy
Okay, you already get a sense of the kind of person that Aminatou is just by hearing that clip, right? So today we are going to have a wide ranging and fascinating and of course a very honest conversation with Aminatou. So about how to navigate friendships, how to navigate relationships, and how to navigate your career while staying true to yourself. What does that mean? What does it mean to be really honest about who you are and what you want? But first, a quick ad break.
- [02:33]
Hannah Burner
This podcast is brought to you by wise, the app for international people using money around the globe. With Wise, you can send, spend and receive up to 40 currencies with only a few simple taps and save up to 55% compared to major banks plus wise won't add hidden fees to your transfer. Whether you're buying souvenirs with pesos in Puerto Vallarta or sending Euros to a loved one in Paris, you know you're getting a fair exchange rate with no extra markups. Be Smart join the 15 million customers who choose Wise. Download the Wise app today or visit wyze.com learn more by visiting wise.com us compare T's and C's.
- [03:08]
Marc Maron
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- [03:39]
Chris Duffy
Hey, it's Marc Maron from WTF here to let you know that this podcast is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. And I'm sure the reason you're listening to this podcast right now is because you chose it well. Choose Progressives. Name your price tool and you could find insurance options that fit your budget. So you can pick the best one for your situation. Who doesn't like choice? Try it@progressive.com and now some legal info. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states. We're talking honesty, friendships and how to pave your own path through the world with Aminatou.
- [04:25]
Aminatou Sow
So hello, I'm Aminatou. So I am a writer and interviewer. You can find me over at Substack at Creme de la Creme. And yeah, that's it.
- [04:37]
Chris Duffy
For people who maybe aren't super familiar, you wrote a book on friendship with one of your best friends. How did that come about?
- [04:43]
Aminatou Sow
Yeah, I wrote a book called Big Friendship with my big friend Anne Friedman, who was also my creative collaborator for many, many years. We were the co host of a podcast called Call youl girlfriend and in 2020 we published this book that was a joint account of our friendship told by the both of us.
- [05:05]
Chris Duffy
I loved the book. I thought it was so well written and accessible and funny. But also it brought up some really to me, big ideas. I'm someone where like I really am willing to put a lot of work into a romantic relationship. I'm willing to like have the conversations and understand that there's going to be rough periods and we're going to have to have, like, tough moments. And I don't think that I had really thought much about that same kind of work in friendship before reading your book about the idea that you might need to spend time and effort and have awkward, uncomfortable conversations with people who you're friends with if you want those friendships and those relationships to last.
- [05:43]
Aminatou Sow
Hearing you say that is not surprising to me. Like, I grew up in the exact same culture as you where people are expected to have good friendships, but nobody talks about how they happen. And somehow it's, you make friends when you're very, very young and that's kind of all a mystery to everyone. And then you're expected to have them at every stage of life. And the truth is that if you don't put work and effort into that relationship, it's not true that you will have long lasting friendships, you know, for your entire life. And so we were, Anna and I are people who I think, like, think a lot about this because we shared a lot of friendships and also our friendship was very important to us. But I think more than anything, it's that we recognize that there was nothing special about our friendship, especially our age. This, like, kind of geriatric millennial, you know, like a younger Gen X. That's kind of the age range that we are in. We were reaching that part of like your mid-30s, you know, where it's okay, like your time is being challenged and your attention is being challenged in all these ways. It's the peak of career. It's a lot of people get caretaking responsibilities. Romantic relationships are like, really important in this phase of life. And I was like, well, how do I make time and room for this, these other relationships that really matter. And so the book was really born out of all of those conversations.
- [07:01]
Chris Duffy
But your book came out right into the coronavirus pandemic, into a time where all of a sudden people are having to be long distance. But also, I think there was a really profound disconnection for a lot of people that at least the people in my world still have not fully recovered from the severing of these close ties, and especially the somewhat weaker ties.
- [07:24]
Aminatou Sow
Yeah, I mean, you're so right. Nobody foresaw publishing in a pandemic. I will say that, like, as somebody who I like, I moved to the United States when I was 19. I was in an international student college. I grew up moving a lot. I come from a background of people that have a lot of experience with long distance relationships. So I will say that the pandemic did not challenge my relationships the way that I saw it challenge a lot of other people's relationships. And that's not to say that it wasn't hard. But like Ann, for example, who is my, you know, like co writer and collaborator and friend, we had not lived in the same city for like six or seven years at that point. So we were already in the rhythm of having a long distance relationship. And suddenly in Covid, we were like, oh, everybody's kind of living like us, where you have this person that you love that is halfway across the country and you have to find ways to show up for them, you know, that are creative and that are hard and it threw a lot of people in for a loop. But I think the way that I really try to think about that time also as well. All relationships face challenges. Like in the book we write about what happens when you get into a rhythm with someone and then all of a sudden it's like they have a new shift at work. It's like this was your work friend that you saw like nine to five, and then now they, you know, they either work far away from you or, you know, you had the morning shift and now they have the evening shift. There are always these, like, kind of small, smaller type, like challenges that insert themselves. And part of like growing in a friendship is learning how to like, stretch with them and stretch with that person and finding ways to overcome them. And sometimes those things are not overcomeable, you know.
- [08:59]
Chris Duffy
What are some, like, of the most effective, practical ways you found to do that?
- [09:03]
Aminatou Sow
I think the first thing that people should do is communicate, which sounds so silly. It sounds so silly. And I'm like, God, I can't believe I pay someone hundreds of dollars a week to remind me every week about this. But I think that, like, no two friendships are the same in the same way that no two relationships are the same. It's like they're governed by kind of the people inside of them and the moods inside of them. And I think that like, communicating with that person, like, hey, I feel like we're like challenged with time or with play or like, whatever the thing is and saying, like, how do you think we like, bridge that gap? Because that communication is like, I think more than 60% of the battle. It's like, if you can tell someone, like, hi, I really love you, but like, life is doing a number on me right now and I don't have time or a way to show up for you, that takes care of like, most of the anxiety, you know, and then everything else is like, people are understanding, like they are going through similar things usually than you are, you know, or they have a framework for kind of like what you're going through. And so, yeah, it sounds really boring, but I was like, you should talk to them about it. You should know what they kind of expect and want. You should know what you expect and want. And then you should find like, small, delightful ways to like, show up in that. Like, with Ann, we're big on like writing mail. And I still get excited when I open my mailbox and there is a postcard from my friend and it's something silly. You know what I mean? It's not a. It's not like she's on some fancy international trip. It's like she literally lives in Los Angeles. But she sent me a piece of mail and she was thinking about me in that moment and I was like, I love this. And now there are not just bills in my mailbox. Someone is thinking about me somewhere else.
- [10:41]
Chris Duffy
Let's also talk about Creme de la creme. I am such a fan. I think it is so fun and thoughtful and thought provoking and funny, often all at the same time. Do you have a one sentence description for it or is it kind of just the writing and the topics that interest you the most?
- [10:56]
Aminatou Sow
No, I do not have a one sentence description for it because actually, you know what, let's try. It's a newsletter about things I'm interested in and my interests are very varied. So, you know, some days it's like very silly and other days it's a little more serious. You know, like there's an advice column and other days there is, I don't know, like links to shopping I'm into. I just. It's a real insight into how my brain works. I think that newsletter, because I just show up and I do whatever I want every day I'm like, I don't have a boss. Like, I'm the boss here. This is very exciting. I think that I. There is like a kind of like older Internet that I miss that I am trying to recreate for myself. And that has been. That's like kind of the intent behind it.
- [11:39]
Chris Duffy
A thread that I kind of see in your work. Whether it is, you know, working in tech, being a digital strategist, being a writer, publishing the book, hosting the podcast call you'd girlfriend, and writing this newsletter. Creme de la creme is figuring out who exactly you want to be and who you are in a way that is not Fitting exactly. Into some sort of culturally prescribed box.
- [12:07]
Aminatou Sow
Wow. You're reflecting something back to me that I have not. I'll be honest with you. I don't spend a ton of time thinking about it. I think that there is this, like, very, like, western white notion of, like, self improvement. You know, like, it's like a thing I see a lot, and I don't really understand it. Like, I. I genuinely do not understand it. It's not my culture. I. I have no judgment about it. I just am like, wow. Like, so many people are preoccupied with, like, how do I become, like, better all the time? And it feels very laborious, you know, And I. I'm not really particularly interested in that kind of labor, but I am interested in, like, kind of this philosophical question of, like, who am I? And, like, where do I fit in the world? And I think that that is universal. You know, it's like I'm trying to write my way into, like, my own thoughts, you know, like, my brain is not quiet. I spend a lot of time thinking all the time. And in fact, I was talking to a friend who was telling me that, like, he has no inner thoughts. And then we got into this whole rabbit hole of, like, what? Like, some people it's quiet in there, and then other people, it's just like, chatter all day. And that has really rattled me. I. I did not know that there were people who had, like, a quiet mind. I certainly do not have a quiet mind. And so much of, like, writing for me is organizing those thoughts. I really appreciate that you, like, call out the sense of humor, because I think that so much of, like, kind of my rejection on, like, self improvement is this. I'm like, this is so self serious. Like, being alive is not serious business, you know, Like, I get it. It's like, it's serious, but it's also. It's very absurd and unserious. And I really try to lean into that absurdity and how I'm like, wow, like, I can't believe I'm here and I gotta do all this stuff. Didn't ask to be born, and here we are. And I think that at the end of the day, like, I'm a writer, I like to tell stories. I like to understand how things work and understanding, like, my place in the world. It's like the best frame that I know how to do that with.
- [14:00]
Chris Duffy
I completely agree that there is, like, a very real cultural perspective that this comes out of. Like, it's your job to be improving yourself as an individual, and you have to do this work all the time. And that's your job, even if you don't think about it as a job. I think there's something at least countercultural about not doing that work and not buying into that and just saying, like, I'm not my version of who I am and what success looks like for me and what a full, complete life looks like is going to be my own, not some sort of one that's imposed on me that involves like living up to these impossible standards that also involve paying money all the time to all these certain things. You know, Like, I think that that countercultural piece is what I'm really interested in.
- [14:43]
Aminatou Sow
Yeah. I mean, I did not really grow up in a world where the model of success looked like me. I was like a fat black girl from West Africa. And I'm not saying that in like a self deprecating way. I'm like, those are like kind of the facts of my life. But I think that something about like not being a contender ended up like really working well for me. Because like the rest of people who look like me, I grew up in like very predominantly, like white environments. Some of this is very like, nature versus nurture. Like, you don't really get to take too much credit for like what your factory settings are. I think that my factory settings were very much like, okay, like they said that it's not for me and that I am not really gonna amount to anything in this system. But I still have to be here and I have to find ways to survive and I have to find ways to figure it out. And so I think that that has ended up like something that is obviously this painful wound for a lot of people and probably including for me ends up being an avenue for figuring out another path. Right. And I think that that's really important. I think the other thing with me is that I am so not interested in like scolding other people or really like kind of looking too much at what's on somebody else's paper. And that's like, from a really young age. I used to drive me crazy in class when people would be like, what's the homework? Like, what are you doing? And I'm just like, just look at your own paper. Like, we can't be like looking at each other's paper too much. This is, it's like very counterproductive. And I think that's something about like really focusing on myself. And it's like all of my energy goes towards, like making sense of myself. I don't really quite have the Time to be like, oh, I like, I wonder what's happening over there with Chris Duffy. Like, what's he thinking? Like, what's he doing? What's he, you know, like, I never.
- [16:33]
Chris Duffy
An interesting answer, I'll tell you that.
- [16:34]
Aminatou Sow
No, but I think that it's like a form of like being very self centered. And I also think that the kind of like negative feelings that I work through a lot and like, a lot of that has to do with like shame or like feelings of inadequacy or you know, like, surprise, surprise, like we all have the same sickness. But I think that like, for me, I have found that I, I've gotten further ahead in thinking about this stuff by just being honest about where I am at. I was like, I can't make assumptions about anyone else. And I'm just like, okay, here's my deal today. Like, I feel like this or I feel like that. And I think that when you are honest about where you're at, it creates like an environment where other people are able to be honest as well. And I think that so much of the community that I benefit from, particularly like online with strangers, is this thing where I'm just like, okay, like, here's what you think about me, but here's kind of the mess that I'm living in and here's the, you know, like the mess that's in my head, like, what's going on with you? And I think that an invitation to that conversation is so much more productive than just like performing, like being perfect or you know, like having all your together or whatever. I don't know. I hope you can start on this podcast. Yeah, I'm also like someone who's fascinated by scams, you know, Like, I, I love a scam. And so much of that is like growing up in Nigeria, like we were surrounded by these like very specific scams. And this is not to say that Nigeria is a country of more scammers. Like, what's happened is that I grew up and I was like, oh, everyone is running some sort of scam. And one of the like most like persistent scams that people are running is that like some people, you feel that some people have it together. And I'm like, no, everyone's like a mess and they like figure it out. It's like, yeah, you can be a mess and you're the president of the university or what? Like, I'm like, these things don't. They're not like correlated. And so I think that just being like really aware of that is also Like, I find that, like, very humorous. I'm like, oh, yeah, everyone's like, messy and weird and. And we just all have to live with that.
- [18:31]
Chris Duffy
I feel like often that feeling of being a little outside of the situation that you're in, whether it's because people look different than you or have different amounts of money or are attracted to different people, whatever that situation is, I think is often a really rich position. Even though it's uncomfortable. It's a really rich position for comedy and for humor because you get to say you all take these things for granted. And I can just see the, like, absurdity of that one piece that you're missing. And often that's like the funniest joke to me is to just point that stuff out.
- [19:08]
Aminatou Sow
Yeah. I mean, but that stuff works on, like, every level because, like, to go back to, like, the self improvement piece of it, the loudest people about self improvement should be taking their own advice. It's like, what are you telling me about, you know, like, how to, like, use my time? Like, use your time.
- [19:25]
Chris Duffy
Totally.
- [19:26]
Aminatou Sow
Like, I'm good. There's also just this, like, very human thing of, like, we always want to show each other, like, kind of what we're up to, you know, And. And I think that, like, at its best, it's really cool, and at its worst, it just, like, breeds a lot of, like, resentment and misunderstanding. And so again, for me, I was like, I stay in my lane. Like, I try not to talk about things I don't understand or I don't know. And, you know, I'm like, keep it small, keep it simple, and let's see where we all shake out, you know, like, after life is like.
- [19:59]
Chris Duffy
We're going to take another quick break right now, but then we'll be right back. This episode is sponsored by bombas. I am supposed to read ad copy, but instead I'm just going to tell you I'm obsessed with these socks. I'm so glad they're advertising on our show because I genuinely evangelize about these socks to everyone I know in my real life without anyone paying me, because I wear them every day. I'm wearing them right now. I think they are actually the best socks in the world. And I think there's no better feeling than wearing a fresh new pair of socks. They're so comfortable. They're moisture wicking. They're amazing. It's not just socks, though. They got buttery, soft T shirts, they've got sweat wicking underwear, they've got waterproof slides that are ready for the beach, the airport, or just your backyard. And dress socks. Even Bombas really has you covered. Once again, I am obsessed with Bombas socks. I wear them every day. I am wearing them right now. I am not just saying this for the ad. And best of all, every time you buy an item, Bombas donates one to someone in need. So head over to bombas.com and use code human for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O M B A S.com, code human at checkout bombas.com and use code Human.
- [21:15]
Unknown
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- [22:10]
Hannah Burner
This podcast is brought to you by wise, the app for international people using money around the globe. With WISE, you can send, spend and receive up to 40 currencies with only a few simple taps and save up to 55% compared to major banks. Plus, wise won't add hidden fees to your transfer. Whether you're buying souvenirs with pesos in Puerto Vallarta or sending Euros to a loved one in Paris, you know you're getting a fair exchange rate with no extra markups. Be Smart join the 15 million customers who choose Wise. Download the Wise app today or visit wise.com learn more by visiting wise.com us compare Ts and Cs apply.
- [22:50]
Chris Duffy
And we are back. For me personally, like something that I really love about being a writer and hosting a podcast, but also that I loved like since I was like 10 years old reading books was just getting to like ask questions and have my curiosity be sated a little bit or Even, like, to get even more curious. I think that's, like. To me, that's really, like, the driving force. I remember reading, like, books that took place. You know, like a kid living alone in a forest or like, people living in the 1800s and being like, I can't believe that's how you'd make a log cabin or something like that. And I still feel like that in getting to interview people. It's just amazing to see the different ways that people think about the world and their life.
- [23:33]
Aminatou Sow
Yeah, no, you're scratching the exact right part of my brain. I'm getting so excited hearing you say that, but I'm like, wow, you're laying bare my scam. I love when people tell me what they think about. You know, I'm just like, how generous and how amazing. I think that, like, yeah, it's like, I was a kid, like you who I read everything. I read every. I was like, wow, there's, like, kids in Alaska like, doing this, and then there's kids in Madagascar doing that. Like, it was so cool. And I think that it probably, for me at least, like, comes from a place of, like. It just made me feel less lonely. I was like, okay, great. There's, like. There's so many more versions of, like, how you can be a person than what I am seeing in front of my own eyes, you know? And so I think that was cool. And part of why I do an advice column, really, is that on creme de la creme, is that I just really think that if you can ask questions, you kind of expose to everyone else that, like, we're all dealing with the same shit. It's like, whenever I look at, like, the mail that I get for that advice column, it's always the same stuff. It's like, okay, I've, like, disappointed someone I love. I'm like, check. Like, we all do that. Or I'm about to do something that I know is bad, but I'm gonna do it anyway. Check. Like, I do that, too. Or, you know, like, my neighbors are driving me crazy. How do you talk to strangers? I'm just like, these are the same problems. Like, no one has brought me a problem in the advice column. That I'm like, categorically, this is a new. This is a new modern. You know, like, not in the Talmud kind of problem. And that is, you know, I find that, like, very exciting, because I'm just like, wow, we're all so different, but we're all the same. And I love interviewing people because I love asking them I love asking them questions. I love hearing how you can ask the same person the same question, and there's, like, you know, however many different answers to that. I also love when you have an assumption about someone, like, especially, like, the people that we interview that are in public life, you know, where you're like, okay, like, I've read, like, everything that you have to say about something, and I love when you ask them a really basic question and they can still surprise you in their answer, because guess what? Perceiving someone is not the same thing as them telling you themselves what they actually mean and say. And so, yeah, that curiosity will never go away for me. I love that.
- [25:52]
Chris Duffy
Are you more excited when you're interviewing someone who feels unattainable, like, I can't believe we got to talk to them, or are you more excited when you're interviewing someone where you're like, I had no idea that you existed before this.
- [26:05]
Aminatou Sow
Oh, I don't believe anyone is unattainable. So that's the first problem. I'm like, yeah, no, no one's unattainable. It's a matter of, like, what's the right cycle for this? Yeah, I'm not particularly interested in interviewing people that are on the interview circuit. I don't think that I personally am gonna bring out something so interesting about someone that, like, has a book out or is on a, you know, like, movie run or, like, a show or whatever. Like, celebrities are celebrities, and famous people are known people are known people. And also, to be fair to them, like, they are here to talk about their work, not necessarily their kind of the innermost. Like, the thing that you want to know about them is actually their private life, which is not fair to them. And I. That's also not interesting to me. However, I do love talking to someone that is not, like, a known quantity and talking to them either about, like, work that's, like, fascinating that they're doing, or, like, a way that they think that's different, you know, or introducing, like, a new person to the public. Like, I love that so much. And something that makes me think about is that, like, I'm obsessed with reading obituaries. Like, every week I find out about, like, amazing people who had, like, had a lifetime of, like, amazing works, you know, that you just, like, don't know about. Always, like, blows my mind. Like, every single week. It's like, I sit down, I read them, and particularly, like, obituaries of women. And I'm always so struck by that, where I was like, oh, look at this. Person who had, like, an amazing life. And I am just finding out about them, like, now that they are no longer here. And I think that that is a. That's an experience that a lot of us have.
- [27:41]
Chris Duffy
It's always interesting to me to think about it in the, like, obituary thing, where it's like, oh, there are a few milestones that you hit and, like, that's the stuff that gets remembered. It's not like each of the little rungs along the way, like, you published a book.
- [27:54]
Aminatou Sow
I know, but it's so fascinating to hear you think about obituaries in the lifespan of Work, you know, Because I'm like, sure, maybe that's how you make it into the New York Times one. Like, maybe. But there are all kinds of obituaries.
- [28:09]
Chris Duffy
Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah.
- [28:10]
Aminatou Sow
The ones that are, like, written by family members.
- [28:12]
Chris Duffy
That's what you're talking about.
- [28:13]
Aminatou Sow
Yeah, but I think that, like, again, yeah, but I'm talking about, like, both of those things. But I do think that it is, like, fascinating that, again, it's like, someone's dead and we're like, what did they do at work? Like, how would I know them? You know? And I'm like, sometimes they're just like an amazing neighbor. You know what I mean? Like, it's not like a work thing or it's like someone who started, like, a cool, like, community program or I read this obit the other day that was, like, from this family that they wrote about their son who, like, died by suicide. And it was so, like, heart wrenching in the sense that I was like, okay. They're like, it's a very conscious choice to mention suicide, right? Because they're like, we want people to know what happened here. And the whole time I was reading it, I was like, this is so generous. Like, they, like, wrote about their, like, family member in just this, like, beautiful, true way. And also, like, giving the public a way to be like, here is how you can talk about your family member that you also might have complicated feelings about. And so, yeah, obituaries. What a fascinating, fascinating territory that also brings.
- [29:19]
Chris Duffy
That brings up something that I wanted to talk to you about. It's something I struggle with a lot, is that line between public and private. And I know from reading your writing that it's something you've thought consciously about, especially in the last couple years. Like, what do you want to be out there in the public? And what do you not want to be out there in the public?
- [29:37]
Aminatou Sow
Because so much of what I write is, like, personal narrative. And also Like, I've written a memoir, of course. Like, I share parts of myself. I think that the negotiation that I made with myself a long time ago was always that, like, I only share things that don't feel precious to me. If it feels like it will be helpful for someone, like, it's in service, right? As opposed to, like, in just like, here is, like, a cool thing about me. I had cancer, which is not how anybody thinks about that stuff. I was like, if it's in service to, like, a greater conversation, then I'm happy to, like, let it go. I also think that something that happens is that we all have different ideas of, like, what should be private and not because I. Again. And I think that some of this is like, being a woman who writes online and also, like, because I had a podcast with my friend. People have, like, a parasocial relationships, you know, like, with women in ways that are, like, very specific. But the things that people ask of me are never the things that I give them, you know? And I'm always. It's always like, fascinating, like, what they want and know. It's like they want to know about, like, romantic relationships. Like, even in the New York Times review of our book, the reviewer was like, I wish I, like, knew this thing about her. And I was like, yeah, you're not going to know that about me. And I think I wrote, like, a. I wrote a column about this, like, recently because. Oh, yeah, because somebody wrote in, like, with, like, a very unhinged kind of question, and I wrote back to them. I was like, if you know me personally, you should ask me. And if you don't know me, you kind of don't have a right to ask me. And so for me, like, that's kind of where the line is. It's like, with my friends, like, I'm generally, like, very open, and it's, you know, it's like, whatever. But I was like, I do think that I fall on the side of, like, a. Like, even with the famous people, I think that people are allowed their privacy. Somebody living out loud or telling you something that you might think is invasive is not an invitation to, like, to, like, rummage through their lives. That's, like, very kind of countercultural to the tabloid culture that we live in and to the Instagram culture we live in. But I'm just like, yeah. I was like, if somebody tells you something intimate about their lives, like, it's a kindness, actually. It's like, you should be grateful now, you know something that you didn't know, you get to make meaning of it in your own life. But it's not an invitation to, like, ask them more about what else is going on with them. Like, they'll tell you if they want to.
- [31:59]
Chris Duffy
I think just to ask a little bit more about this line, you made the joke, but it's also not a joke that you have been public about having health battles and dealing with cancer. And so that is something that I think people latch onto and they completely agree with you. That is a real generosity that people can learn from what you went through and just not feel as alone if they are going through it. And yet that's also, I imagine, a real weight to have people know that or reach out to you and share their own versions of that pain and struggle.
- [32:29]
Aminatou Sow
That example specifically is interesting because when I did it, at the time, there was not a lot of forethought. I think it was more of a. I genuinely thought I was going to die. Which, looking back on it now, I was like, that's interesting, too. And also it's that thing that happens, I think, like, when you are sick where you have to keep a lot of people updated. Also at the same time, you know, And I was like, the logistics of that are becoming really hard. And so something that I told my friends ended up being something that I told the whole world. I still feel good about that disclosure. What is intense, though, is what you're talking about is, like, other people reaching out, or they have, like, all these, like, very specific questions, or they have these questions about treatment and. And all this stuff. And I'm always like, sorry. Like, I don't. I'm not a doctor. I don't really love to talk about medical stuff. Yeah. Like, that's not my lane, you know, like, going back to, like, I don't like to talk about things that I don't understand very well. It's also, like, none of this stuff matters. It's like, actually, like, when you are really sick, and if you're annoyed about, like, you know, like, people asking you questions, I'm like, that's not the real thing you're annoyed about. You're annoyed about the fact that you might die, you know, and so that's just, like, another layer. And for me, at least, like, it was helpful to understand that. And many years later, like, people still have questions about it, and I'm like, buy my next book and maybe you'll find out about it.
- [33:46]
Hannah Burner
Yeah.
- [33:46]
Chris Duffy
Wait, tell me, what is the next book? You said it's done, but not out.
- [33:49]
Aminatou Sow
It's a memoir. About the years after my mom died.
- [33:53]
Chris Duffy
I think that's gonna be a really interesting and amazing book. I mean, I've read a little bit of what you've written about dealing with that grief and moving into a world without a person who you really care about. I'm curious. You probably get a lot of questions from, like, people who are younger and kind of early in their career and trying to figure out early in life, trying to figure things out. I'm curious what threads come about the most in those. Like, what are the people. When people reach out who are 20s, early 30s, and they're asking you about life and work and figuring themselves out, what comes up the most? What do people most ask you about?
- [34:29]
Aminatou Sow
You know, it's funny, I don't actually get those emails a lot anymore. I used to. And I remember at the time I was like, I'm young, too. Like, I don't know what I'm doing. It's just not a good answer. I am, like, very involved with, like, a younger writer program, and I'm involved a lot also with, like, a program at my university. And so I do talk to young people all the time. And it's like, the same questions that, like, I had and I still have. It's just like, how am I going to survive? And, like, how do I make money? Basically, it's like, how. How do I, like, make money and how do I survive? I mean, I'm like, I don't know, girl. Like, you just take jobs. But the one thing that I do tell a lot of people who talk to me about, like, how do I make work for my art? Is I always say, I'm like, you probably won't, so you should get a job. You should work a job. There is no shame in having a job. I always had jobs, and I am, you know, like, what, almost 20 years removed from, like, a college graduation. And I was like, that's how long it took for me to make money from being a. Like, to be a working artist, which is a thing I tell a lot of young people. I was like, find a way to support yourself that is more important than suffering. And then the second question is always some variation of, like, how do I do what you did? The answer to that is also, like, you can't. Because I come from, like, a kind of, like, a media and Internet world that doesn't exist anymore. And so I think that, like, the. The kind of. The sadness for me whenever young people are like, you know, like, what's the path to here? I'm Like, I don't know because the path I took, like, doesn't exist anymore. I climbed this ladder as the steps were disintegrating. I just don't know if you're like 22 and you're like, I want to move to New York and be a writer. I'm like, I actually don't know how you do that. Like, that's a question for somebody else. And so a lot of times I try to like direct them towards younger writers to answer that for them. Careers of people today who like, do the thing that you and I do. I was like, I don't know that that is replicable, like, in a way that like makes sense, you know, for young people because, like, media has shifted so much. The Internet landscape is different. Capitalism is doing a more intense version of capitalism. And so that really bums me out.
- [36:39]
Marc Maron
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- [37:39]
Chris Duffy
You, avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start. Thumbtack knows home, so you don't have to don't know the difference between matte paint, finish and satin or what that clunking sound from your dryer is. With thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro. You just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see price estimates and read reviews all on the app. Download today. The joke that is very much not a joke that I always make when someone asks me some version of that is like, I really hope that you figure it out and that you will hire me when you do. Because that is I don't feel like I'm going to be hiring you. I feel very much like I will be begging you for a job if you figure it out, so please do that.
- [38:20]
Aminatou Sow
Oh, it's not a joke. It's the only reason I keep young people around. I was like, you guys are all going to hire me one day, that is. And it's been true. It's like, a lot of people, like, someone who was my intern many years ago, like, was someone who just gave me, like, a gig recently. And I was like, see, I always knew this. Yeah. Horizontal loyalty. It was always gonna work out one way or the other.
- [38:44]
Chris Duffy
What about when, like, when they're asking you about, how do you, like, survive? Like, how do you survive life?
- [38:49]
Aminatou Sow
Yeah. I mean, I think that the thing I push them to is I was like, you're not gonna survive alone. And it's probably why this question of friendship is so important to me, because I do think that finding ways to be in community with people that do not have, like, the pressure of romance or, like, biological family ties is so important. We're not looking for, like, a hundred friends in the frame. It truly is. Like, do you have a person in your life that you can count on, that can count on you? And are you both trying to move towards this goal of being, like, good citizens of the community that you belong to? Like, that, to me, is. It's part of the answer. I don't think it's the whole answer, but whenever people come to me and they're just like, how do I survive? I'm like, I don't know, but find someone else who's trying to survive. Because it turns out, like, you're not the only person with this question. You're not the only person that's suffering. And to, like, tie back to this theme of grief, I do think that one of the things that, like, having a parent die young like, kind of afforded me was this truth of, like. Like, everyone is grieving something. You know, like, every. It's like every interaction I have every day with someone, it's like, whether I like them or they are driving me insane and I want to push them into traffic, I'm like, that person is grieving something. Friendship and grief are, like, very. They're like two pieces that go hand in hand. Staying in that place has, like, provided a lot of answers for me. It's just these, like, very simple truths. It's like, all the stuff that you spend time running away from when you're young are the things that you have to run towards. All of the coping skills that helped you survive up until the train crash are now all of the things that you have to unlearn to, like, get to the next phase. It's like, all of it is so. It's just like, I'm like, everything is cliche. It's so annoying. And at the same time, I'm like, wow, like, what an intense opportunity to just choose another path. But again, it's like, you know, I'm just like, no one has a monopoly on human suffering, especially not people who are making or listening to podcasts.
- [40:58]
Chris Duffy
So that is definitely true.
- [41:01]
Aminatou Sow
But, yeah, again, being a person, it's hard. It's not like a Prussian Olympics, but it's like, it's hard to be yourself.
- [41:08]
Chris Duffy
We've talked about this a little bit, but I'm curious how humor and the art of conversation and the art of writing, again, three things that I think you are so stupendously talented at, how those help you to navigate this, like building of community and dealing with grief and figuring out your own path. How is the art tied to the life part for you? And how do they inform each other?
- [41:34]
Aminatou Sow
Whatever the smallest human tether is to understand someone else. Like, I don't care where they're from or who they are or what they look like. Or, you know, I'm just like, my survival, like, involves being connected to another person. And that is, you know, like, broad statement. But I do find that, like, generally all conversation is. Is like, asking questions and following up. You know what I mean? Like, that's all. Welcome to podcast. Some people do it better than others. I do think that one of the secrets of asking questions is that people love to talk about themselves, you know, and so if you ask questions that are, like, remotely thoughtful or you ask people things that they're not being asked of or, you know, they're not being considered that way really opens up, like, it opens up, like, a beautiful channel for being connected with people and making them feel, like, kind of considered. And there is, like, dignity and, like, respect to every single person, like, whether they are known or not. And I find that, like, in my line of work, at least, that giving people the kind of time of day that really considering deeply something that they're asking not because someone else says they're important, but because I believe that every single person is important and the questions that they have are important and the dignity that they have as a person is so central.
- [42:57]
Chris Duffy
I'm just curious on a meta level, if you can give advice to people who are trying to do this in their because I think you've done this to me in a really interesting way, which is to like, push back on the framework or assumptions that a person has when they're talking to you. What advice would you have for people who are trying to do that more in their life and haven't quite mastered it yet?
- [43:20]
Aminatou Sow
One is you just ask questions. I think that, like, a place that humans get in a lot of trouble is that people make these really strong, declarative statements. I obviously feel very safe to do them here in the hands of a professional, but I think, like, generally in civilian conversation, it gets you further along. If you say, hey, have you considered xyz or what do you think about? It's like you take the conversation somewhere else. You know, like not in an arrogant way. I do think that so much of the art of conversation is being humble and it's not about me. Making assumptions is like very silly. So if you don't know something, you should just ask.
- [43:58]
Chris Duffy
Thank you so much for being on the show. This was such a great conversation. I really appreciate you making the time.
- [44:02]
Aminatou Sow
You are the best. I really enjoy you. I think you are so smart and lovely and this is a fun show. So thank you for having me.
- [44:10]
Chris Duffy
Wow, what a delight. I'm so honored. That is it for this episode of how to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to today's guest, Aminatu. So her book is called Big Friendship and you can find her newsletter@aminatou.substack.com that is a M I N A T O U.substack.com I am your host Chris Duffy and you can find more from me, including my weekly newsletter and other projects@chrisduffycomedy.com how to be a Better Human is put together by a team who I would gladly go to therapy with. On the TED side we've got human beams of light. Daniela Valorizo, Banban Chang, Michelle Quint, Chloe Shasha Brooks, Valentina Bohanini, Lainey Lot Tanzika, Sungma Nivong, Antonio Le and Joseph De Bruyne. Speaking of being true to yourself, this episode was fact checked by Julia Dickerson and Mattea Salas, who are always true to the truth. On the PRX side, they are the creme de la creme. I'm talking about Morgan Flannery, Norgill, Patrick Patrick Grant and Jocelyn Gonzalez. Thanks again to you for listening. Please call up your girlfriend and recommend this podcast to them. We will be back next week with even more how to Be a Better human. Until then, take care. Thanks for listening. We appreciate you.
- [45:32]
Marc Maron
Popsicles, sprinklers, a cool breeze. Talk about refreshing. You know what else is refreshing this summer? A brand new phone with Verizon. Yep. Get a new phone on any plan with select phone, trade in MyPlan and lock down a low price for three years on any plan with MyPlan. This is a deal for everyone whether you're a new or existing customer. Swing by Verizon today for our best phone deals. 3 year price guarantee applies to then current base monthly rate only. Additional terms and conditions apply for all offers.
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Chris Duffy
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