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- [00:01]
Commercial Announcer
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- [01:27]
Chris Duffy
Terms apply. Lounge access is subject to change. See capitalone.com for details. You're listening to how to Be a Better Human. I'm your host Chris Duffy. Today we're going to be talking to Ashley C. Ford about processing your life through writing. For me, for years I have journaled every day. Occasionally I might have to miss a morning, but I really try my hardest not to. And most of what I write in my journal is just completely mundane nonsense that I'm never going to go back to and reread. It's a lot of entries about needing to clean my desk or how hard it is to write. You know, it's not exactly Pulitzer Prize winning material, but occasionally when I'm writing something about my life, like say, an intro for this podcast, I go back into an old journal to capture the details of a particular moment or the exact wording of what was running through my head on a day in the past. Those journals can be a source of that raw material. And for me, one of the biggest reasons that journaling matters is because it's a way of processing my life, of putting words onto the page and figuring out what I think, creating a narrative of what has happened to me. Now today's guest, Ashley C. Ford, is one of the absolute best people in the world at this she is the author of the best selling memoir Somebody's Daughter, which is one of the most beautiful books I've ever read. It's a masterclass in nuance, empathy and making meaning out of even really terrible life experiences. But if you haven't read the book, I don't want to spoil it too much because it's funny, it's touching, it's deeply, deeply moving. The basic plot is that it is about Ashley's childhood, growing up with a father who was incarcerated, with dealing with abuse and violence in her own life and figuring out what it means to have your love for someone not be based on the worst thing that they ever did. It's a book that's really impossible to reduce into just a few words. So to give you a taste of Ashley's writing and the way that she manages to be so honest while also not flattening her story, here's a clip from Somebody's Daughter where Ashley is talking on the phone with her mom as an adult. And this is from the audiobook.
- [03:24]
Ashley C. Ford
I'd gotten up from dinner to take the call from my mother. She still lived in Fort Wayne, my hometown. We hadn't lived in the same city or the same house since I left for college 11 years earlier. She called every few weeks, I answered every other call, and we usually had a good time talking for 10 to 15 minutes. I taught myself to keep our phone conversations light, or, as I like to think of it, complication free, without lying. I didn't want to lie to her. I wanted to be able to talk to my mother the way I could with most other people as myself. But she wasn't just anybody. She was my mother, so that was impossible. There were limits. We only dove into subjects that wouldn't end in arguments, which was mostly whatever would make us both laugh. When she said that thing to me that I could always come home, part of me wanted to reply, mama, I love you, but I'll work myself past the white meat down to the bone and fist fight every stranger I run across on the street before we live under the same roof again, that was the hyperbolic expression of a feeling I did not allow myself to verbalize for fear of ruining our smooth interaction. And it would have. There was no way to make it sound like a joke, because in some way I wasn't joking. I got angry with myself for even thinking the thought, because I knew it would hurt her to know it had ever been in my mind. I got mad at myself too, for not saying it out loud anyway, for not caring if it hurt her if it meant telling the truth.
- [05:21]
Chris Duffy
We're going to be back with Ashley C. Ford in just a moment. We're going to talk about her story. We're going to talk about what it takes to write truthfully about yourself and the people you love. And we're going to talk about how to process your life on the page. All that right after this break. This episode is sponsored by Quints. Why drop a fortune on basics when you don't have to? I am all about clothes that feel good, look sharp and actually last for a long time while not costing a fortune. Which is exactly what I got from Quint. They have incredible high quality fabrics and classic fits, which is what I like. I do not like an experimental fit and I recently got a cashmere sweater for them. It's so soft, it's so comfortable. And I'll tell you what, when people see me wearing it, they're like, you look actually like unusually put together because normally you don't look put together. This is something has changed. And I go, that's right, it's Quint's. It's the Quince sweater. You would think that this would be extremely expensive. It's actually about half the cost of similar brands because they're working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen. So you get luxury level quality without the premium markup. From cozy cashmere and cotton sweaters starting at just $50 to breathable polos and comfortable lightweight pants. Quince has the staples that you will be reaching for over and over. Keep it classic and cool with long lasting staples from quince. Go to quince.comhuman for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I N C E dot com human to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com human.
- [07:06]
Commercial Announcer
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- [07:36]
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- [07:37]
Commercial Announcer
Can I make my site softer?
- [07:39]
Chris Duffy
Can I make my site firmer? Can we sleep cooler?
- [07:43]
Sleep Number Advertiser
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- [08:11]
Chris Duffy
Today we're with Ashley C. Ford, talking about how to make meaning of your life through writing and what it takes to see nuance and beauty in yourself and others.
- [08:19]
Ashley C. Ford
Hi, I'm Ashley C. Ford, author and podcast host. I'm so excited to be here and can't wait to talk.
- [08:26]
Chris Duffy
The thing that I wanted to kind of talk about a lot in this interview, about writing itself. And I think you have this way of capturing imagery in writing that's so vivid, especially imagery of being a young kid and these really powerful moments. And I think it's rare for writers to capture that in nonfiction because we tend to get stuck on plot. And what drives the A led to B led to C. Yeah. How do you, as a writer, like, mind your own experiences, but also how does that change the way that you remember them?
- [09:01]
Ashley C. Ford
You know, memoir for me is about what we remember, right? At its core, it's about what does this individual person remember about their lives? What is the lens that they filter that memory through? How do you choose to share that memory? Do you choose to share that memory? How much do you trust your memory? All of those things. Right. And my relationship with my mom. Memory has been one that is both a blessing and a curse. My memory tends to lock down. Right. Like, I lock onto things and I can remember things vividly. I remember colors, I remember details. I remember what people were wearing. I remember the pitch of their voices. I remember the pitch of the voices behind their voices. You know, all of those things. It's like being back in that moment. There are a few reasons why I think that's the case. One of those reasons is my eyesight. I have really, really terrible eyesight. And I do mean terrible. Legally blind without my glasses eyesight. And I spent most of my life up until around fourth grade not having glasses, even though my eyesight was that bad. I sort of dealt with that or I think just moved around it because I didn't know my eyesight was bad or how bad it was by memorizing where things were, memorizing details that could be seen in a fuzzy way and not necessarily clearly. You know, I still fall asleep sometimes to the show Golden Girls, because I can close my eyes and still picture all of the scenes, and I can know where they are in the house by the tone of their voices. I know what episode it is and what plot point is coming next based on the color of the dress that Dor Dorothy or Sophia is wearing, you know, and it's because as a child, I fell asleep watching Golden Girls, but I couldn't see the television. So everything that I remembered was just how the colors and the shapes and the sounds moved around the screen instead of very clear, vivid details. And that's how my memory has continued to work over the years. My husband's always like, you can find anything. And it's because my brain sort of takes a snapshot when I turn, when I look into a room to remember where everything is in case I lose my Gl or in case I can't see. So that's part of it. Another part of it is that I come from what I call the Hook generation of kids. You know, I grew up on films that very much held onto the plot point and encouraged the plot point that something happened in adulthood, Something was lost in adulthood. A magic, an ability to see, an ability to feel, an ability to know. And that there was something that adults were doing, something very mysterious, that forced them to have to suppress what they knew and what they felt was possible in the world. And I thought that when I encountered adults who were less than kind to children, it was because they were trapped. They'd forgotten what it was like to be children. They'd forgotten what they knew when they were children and in order to survive in the world. And that had caused them to become adults who hurt children directly or indirectly, consciously or unconsciously. That whatever they lost, whatever they couldn't remember, made them the way they were and were, was essentially at the core of the reasons why I suffered. So, yeah, when I'm writing memory, I'm writing from this very personal experience of memory that, as I think about it, you know, more as I grow, I just. I see all these moments that changed how I memorize things and how I share things, but also, you know, feels very true and very real to me. And I like to respect and honor past versions of me by sharing things the way they remember them.
- [13:03]
Chris Duffy
I had never thought about that connection between vision and memory, and it's really Interesting, because I have really good vision, don't need glasses, and I have such bad memory. I mean, like, I write for almost the exact opposite reason, which is, like, I write things down. I'm really, like, big into journaling and writing because if I don't, they just disappear. The narratives that stay for me are the narratives that are, like, ones that I tell or that other people around me tell over and over. And so I have this real sense that, like, my memory is a shifting sand and it is not necessarily reliable. I never even thought before that might be connected to vision and to the way that I can see things and kind of constantly check.
- [13:45]
Ashley C. Ford
And I have written and talked very much about the fact that I remember deciding to make memories as a child. I remember having these moments and saying to myself, this is one of those things you've got to hold onto. This is one of those things you've got to remember. This is one of those things that you need to be able to recall, because this is going to help you make sure you're the person that you want to be as you get older, and that you're not just doing things because that's what other people are doing, doing, or because someone else says that that's what's right. If you remember this moment right now, then it will protect you from a future version of yourself who doesn't care or who doesn't think to care. I was very, very concerned about that. I also had this thing where I was convinced when I was a kid that I was supposed to be able to remember my father, who had truly only been in my life for seven, six or seven months before he went to prison. But I felt guilty about not being able to remember him. And it made me sort of feel like I was in this relationship with my memory. It felt. Not necessarily separate from me, but it felt like. It felt like intention could be more important than anybody else seemed to indicate that it was.
- [15:07]
Chris Duffy
I want to talk a little bit more about that, like, making memory as a way of shaping who you want to be. Because that strikes me as something that really we could all be doing. And I think I'm at least so rarely conscious of that, of being like, this is something I want to remember because I want to be like this or not be like this or care for people who go through this.
- [15:29]
Ashley C. Ford
Like I said, as a kid, I definitely felt this guilt about not being able to remember my dad, who was incarcerated about seven months after my birth, which it makes total sense, right, that I don't remember this man But I felt really, really bad about it. And I found that I would have these moments when I was alone and especially when I was confused or when I was afraid or when I was very angry in an indignant kind of way, when I had been blamed for doing something I didn't do, when I was in trouble for something that I didn't think I should be in trouble for because I felt like a very reasonable child. I. I felt like when I was in trouble for something that I did that was bad, I never really fought that. I was like, yeah, I messed up. I know what I did. And that was not the right thing to do. And while I don't want to be in trouble right now, I get it. But if I didn't get. Didn't just feel like anger or sadness. It felt like reacting to betrayal and feeling very, very, very betrayed in those moments. The thing that I was probably most cognizant of was the helplessness of childhood, the reality of being a child and looking at the adults around you, knowing that they are essentially responsible for every part of your life for the next several years longer than you can really fathom at that time and feel like you don't trust those adults or you don't think that they actually have your best interests at heart, or noticing little flaws or weaknesses in their personalities that feel dangerous to you in an existential way. So I knew I was going to grow up. I knew I was going to get older. I didn't know what happened to make adults so different from kids, but I knew that I liked the kid version of me. And I desperately wanted to hold on to her, even if other people didn't like her, and even if other people didn't care about her, and even if they called her bad, and even if they called her wrong or whatever. I loved her and I wanted to keep her. I wanted to keep me forever. So I knew that my body would change. I knew that, you know, where we lived, our relationships could and would change. But the things I wanted to hold onto, I could keep in my mind. And so I made a memory, I guess the way a child thinks to make a memory, which is to sit quietly and close your eyes, be in the moment, replay the moment in your head and feel everything around you and be very, very, I guess what I would call now present. I don't just remember, like myself, sitting quietly. I remember the air. I remember the way things smelled. I remember the way my clothes felt against my body. You know, I can feel the different shape of my body.
- [18:53]
Chris Duffy
We're talking about it in the context of you being a child. Have you done this as an adult too? Have you done this recently? This idea of intentionally making memories, you.
- [19:03]
Ashley C. Ford
Know, it's been a while. I live with a different the stakes feel different as an adult. I trust myself a lot more as an adult to be able to remember my values more than a specific moment to fuel me. And I find that I kind of like the surprise as an adult of remembering things that I did not expect to remember and that I didn't try to remember. That's a different experience of my memory and I've really been enjoying it. And I don't think that I've been in a place of really trying to make those memories. I find it easier to be in the moment now. I find it easier to trust my ability to recall things without having to take that snapshot.
- [19:59]
Chris Duffy
Going to take another quick break right now, but then we will be right back.
- [20:15]
Commercial Announcer
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- [20:45]
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- [21:17]
Commercial Announcer
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- [21:18]
Chris Duffy
Can I make my site firmer? Can we sleep cooler?
- [21:22]
Sleep Number Advertiser
Sleep number does that cools up to 8 times F and lets you choose your ideal comfort on either side your Sleep number setting it's the Sleep number Biggest sale of the year all beds on sale up to 50% off the limited edition smart bed plus free home delivery with the purchase of any smart bed ends Monday. All Sleep number Smart beds offer temperature solutions for your best sleep. Check it out at a Sleep number store or sleepnumber.com today.
- [21:50]
Chris Duffy
And we are back. Today we're with Ashley C. Ford, the author of the best selling memoir, Somebody's Daughter. I think sometimes when people have written about tough experiences in their life, right, like having your father be incarcerated, having experiencing sexual assault, having like people with in your life experience violence or you experiencing violence, people like only see you through the lens of like the very serious stuff. And you are also so funny and silly and joyful. And how have you changed the way you think about humor and silliness and just goofiness?
- [22:26]
Ashley C. Ford
I've always been the jokester. I've always sort of been the class clown, the personality hire, if you will. I've been that person my whole life. I did stand up comedy for years when I was in college and really loved it and stopped mostly because I didn't like comedians very much, even though I loved doing comedy. But I've always been funny. It's been my crutch. It's been the thing that helped me form most of my relationships from the beginning, my friendships. It's the reason why my teachers and professors loved me even though I was not always doing great in their classes. It really greases a lot of wheels to be a person who, you know, makes people laugh in general. And since the book has come out, one of the trickiest things has been having conversations with people who really want to talk to me from a place of, you know, taking the issues that happened in my book seriously, which I do take seriously and I talk about and write about very seriously because that's what it is, you know, that's just the reality. But, but like most things in reality, it's complex. There is no version of funny Ashley who didn't go through the things that I've been through. There's no version of serious Ashley who doesn't know how to make a joke like that. Those are just things that don't exist separately. I get a lot of, I loved your book. I didn't expect you to be so bright. I didn't expect you to be so joyful. You know, my husband, who is the manager of a bookstore and is probably responsible for 90% of the books I've sold in the last year because, boy, does he move those books from that bookstore. But he tells people all the time when they go to buy the book or are questioning, you know, whether or not they should get the book, he always says, you know, you want to read it and you want to think about it, but just remember, she turns out okay. And this has been a great dichotomy in My life, you know, that I've always, I think, like I said, been the funny person. Been the person who can make people joke. But I've also always pretty easily made people cry by talking with them, by telling them stories, by sharing with them. And even though now I accept the reality that both of those things are true about me, for a very, very long time, I found them. I couldn't believe that anybody thought I was funny enough to laugh. And I couldn't believe that anybody thought what I said mattered enough to cry over it for a really, really long time. And I'm not sure where those things come from, except from being honest.
- [25:31]
Chris Duffy
It feels like there's three really big virtues that are kind of in communication here, right? Like honesty, creativity, and perseverance. And there's a way in which those three are really working together in your experience. And I think many people find that, like, the more you're honest, the more creative you are. And the more creative you are, the more honest you can be. And then probably it would be a lot more difficult to persevere if you didn't have those two other things.
- [25:56]
Ashley C. Ford
Absolutely. I mean, I think sometimes people will say to me, man, you're so brave to have written these things. You are so. I couldn't have done it. I don't think I could have ever. And I want to tell them sometimes I'm not as brave as I am tired. I'm not. And I don't have the energy, literally, to pretend and to keep up a charade. I don't have it. I know some people do. They can do it every day. They live it every day. It works for them. But that's not what works for me. Like I said, not as brave as I am tired. Because a lot of the choices that I make that people seem to admire don't necessarily come from this need or desire to be courageous as much as an exhaustion with pretend. I can't pretend that I don't see what I see. I can't pretend I don't hear what I hear. Some people can. Good for them. I can't do it. And so I end up in these situations where it's like, yeah, I'm defending this, or I seem relentless in my perseverance of something. But really what it is, is I already know that that's the thing for me. I already know that that's my next step. And in a lot of cases, I've tried to do it the other way. I've tried to do it what I thought was the easy way. Or what you think is the easy way for me. And I could not get motion. I couldn't get an inch forward. And a lot of times for me, and I think this is true for a lot of people. Until you can be honest and start to create, you don't move. And stagnation to me, feels worse than almost anything else.
- [27:53]
Chris Duffy
What do you do when you feel that, though?
- [27:55]
Ashley C. Ford
I hide. That's my first inclination, right? Is to hide from myself. Whatever that looks like, I know that I'm hiding from myself. When I can't take silence, when I find myself having a moment of silence and desperately scrambling for my headphones, desperately scrambling for a podcast to listen to or a playlist or a YouTube video or something. Like when I start feeling like, absolutely not, Ashley, you cannot be with your own mind right now. When I find myself in those moments, I know that, yes, this is not going well, Ashley. You're hiding from yourself. And I have to do the hard work of coming back into the light. I have to make sure that when I'm hanging out with my husband, I'm actually hanging out. Take the headphones off, put the phone down. You're with somebody who you love and like spending time with. So spend time with him. Use your journal. Actually sit and write and journal. Listen to music without words. If you're going to listen to music for a little while, watch. Don't necessarily have to get into, like, new shows or anything like that. If you're going to watch a show, let's go back to something old and familiar that, you know, makes you feel good and warm and maybe even inspired. Even though it doesn't have to be that. You have to get some sun on your face and some air on your skin. I know I'm in a bad place when I'm walking through the house and a window is open and I feel a breeze come through. And it is startling, it is shocking to feel real air on my skin. And I. And then something happens and my eyes go big and I'm like, oh, you gotta go outside. You have to go for a walk. You have to do something. It helps me to move and to be cognizant of all of the ways that a person moves. Because you don't just move your body, even though that's important. You gotta move your mind, you gotta move your heart, you gotta move all of it. I gotta call people I love and actually talk with them. I have to live my life in order to make things from my life.
- [30:24]
Chris Duffy
I want to talk to you about a couple of passages in somebody's daughter, if that's okay.
- [30:29]
Ashley C. Ford
Absolutely.
- [30:30]
Chris Duffy
I think probably this has got to be one of the most quoted parts of the book and certainly one that people ask you about the most. It's a conversation with your father that you have towards the end of the book. And he says, do me a favor, Ashley. When you write about you and me, just tell the truth, your truth. Don't worry about nobody's feelings, especially not mine. You got to be tough to tell your truth, but it's the only thing worth doing next to loving somebody. I'm just curious how that passage has changed in meaning or if it has changed in meaning since the book has been published.
- [31:03]
Ashley C. Ford
It hasn't changed in meaning since the book has been published. You know, I wrote those words because of what they meant to me at the time, which was that my story was mine and I had to be able to respect and honor the voice of my child self enough to let her speak without tempering it with the feelings and concerns of the adults who loved her but could not show up for her the way they want it to or the way she needed. It's okay, you know, for me to tell that story, and I continue to feel that way, that it was okay for me to tell that story, that it's okay for me to continue to talk about that story. All of the worst versions of what could happen if people, especially people who I loved and cared about, hated it. All of those scenarios that I tossed back and forth in my mind as I was writing this book. And, you know, even when I was writing that line, none of those things came to pass. None of those things came true. It's been an extremely positive experience. And it still means what I felt like it meant there, that my story is mine and it's worthy of being told no matter who listens or who cares.
- [32:31]
Chris Duffy
You also have this passage that really hits at the core of something that I really believe deeply too, about books and libraries. This is early in the book, but you're talking about how your grandmother opened a world to you by bringing you to public libraries and really encouraging you. You say she sparked my lifelong love affair with stories. And once I lived with my mother again, my grandmother encouraged her to let my brother and me spend time at our local public library. The library felt too good to be true. All those books on all those shelves, and I could just pluck them out one by one, find an empty chair and read and read and read. When I realized nobody would stop me from browsing in the teen and adult sections. That books were a place where my age didn't matter as long as I could read the words in front of me. I found a home for my mind and spirit to take root. My imagination had already taken me on a million wild rides. But here was unlimited adventure. For the rest of my life, I would seek out the library the way some search for the soft light of a chapel in the dark.
- [33:25]
Ashley C. Ford
I could cry. You know, I'm really trying not to right now because of how I feel about libraries and librarians, especially right now as I think about them. You know, it's a lot of fear and heartbreak. So, you know, my experience was so beautiful. I mean, I loved my local library. It was one of the few places that I was allowed to walk to. I loved my local library. I love the summer reading program, which is, you know, at the time, almost every book I owned came from the summer reading program. Cause my mom didn't really buy us books. But if I did the summer reading program, I could get free books from the library and I could keep them. And this was a really big deal for me at the time, that I could write my name on the inside cover because it was my book and I would be able to hold onto my book. That's how I got into a lot of authors who I otherwise would not have picked up. That's where I got my first Harry Potter book. That's where I got A Walk to Remember by Nicholas Sparks. That's where I got Romeo and Juliet. That's where I got Their Eyes Were Watching God by Zora Neale Hurston. You know, I didn't have a plethora of options. And, you know, once we had a couple of late finds at the library, my mom was not going to pay them, so we couldn't leave with the books anymore. But we could still go and read them while we were there. When I was thinking about the book and I was thinking about these different threads and through lines that fed the narrative, one of the big ones was me picturing myself in all of the libraries, in different places that I had lived and at different points in my life. So I knew I wanted to say something about the library and what it had meant to me and how it sort of fed into me becoming this writer and becoming this creative person and how that, you know, essentially led to me being able to make it out of some of the circumstances that I was born into. I write this book and I write that passage. And, you know, I did an event at the library in my hometown. You know, downtown. And all of these people came, and the librarians were so excited to meet me. And one of them was. One of them was a librarian from my local branch when I was a kid. And I got to see her and tell her, you know, what she meant to me. She asked me to sign her book. Yeah, I just. I love books, and I love libraries, and that's probably one of my most favorite things I've ever written.
- [36:13]
Chris Duffy
So there's this passage also in Somebody's Daughter that I wanted to read because I thought it was such a fascinating moment where you're writing about yourself, you're a young kid, and it's your mom and your brother and you, and you're playing this game. And basically the game is your mom turns off the lights, and she says, I'm not your mother. And then she gets one of you, and you say you got scared, that it actually wasn't your mother, that it was something else. And you run, and you get a knife, and you run towards her, and she turns on the light and she sees you holding the knife, and then this is what you wrote. When she saw me standing there, four years old and more than ready to mortally wound her for daring to touch the person I loved most in the world, she laughed. My mother laughed so hard she couldn't stop laughing. Her uncontrollable laughter made my brother and me laugh. And we laughed with her. The three of us fell to the floor, clutched our stomachs, and rolled around with laughter. My mother laughed until she wet herself, and then she laughed harder. That was the last time we played that game. But there were others. It really stuck with me, that moment, because it's so funny and it's so scary and tense, and there's so much nuance in that. And so I think, just selfishly, as a person who thinks about comedy and humor, I'm just really curious to hear what you think about, like, laughing hard and it maybe being a complicated laugh, because I think we don't talk a lot about complicated laughs.
- [37:38]
Ashley C. Ford
Listen, complicated laughs are the story of my life. First of all, I grew up in a house where laughter was very much encouraged. There was a lot of anger in my house, and there was a lot of fear in my house, but there was also a lot of laughter. And those existed within moments of each other sometimes. And I noticed that a lot of the things that I read and a lot of things that I saw kept these experiences so separate. And that was not what I had lived. That was not my experience. There are many, I think, Elements of the laughter, horror, fear, crying, like, all of that. And a lot of it comes from, like, extreme emotion. But also a lot of it, at least in my opinion, in black households, comes from a great reverence for absurd humor. When something is absurd, I mean, and just why would that happen? Why did that happen? That's when we laugh the most and the hardest. It's the something absurd happened. Looking at each other, both realizing this is wild and then just letting it fall apart and reacting to it in a way that's, I think, more so based in reality. Because most things are. That are absurd should just be laughed at. They shouldn't be taken seriously, and they shouldn't be feared. They should be cackled at. You should be in stitches about that, not having to have fear or worry about it. And in black households, or, you know, in an observance that I've made over the years, is that in black households, there is a greater, not just reverence for the absurd and humor, but also for reality. It's like it is what it is. There is a lot of acceptance of reality that must happen, that has to happen for reasons of survival in our community. And I think that translates into the home in a very, very similar way. That's part of the reason why I had such a hard time as a kid is because I felt like I was in a culture and in a community that demanded being able to see, recognize, and process reality. But at times, because I was a child asked me to ignore that or asked me to pretend that reality was different. Not because it was different, but because it made an adult feel more comfortable. And not only did I not like that, I found it tough to adhere to. Really, really tough. And after a while, I just sort of gave up because I couldn't do it. And I just figured the world was just gonna have to take me the way I was.
- [40:47]
Chris Duffy
Yeah. That is a lesson that a lot of people struggle their whole lives to learn how to stay true to reality, even when that reality is not the story that other people want so related to that. If someone's listening and they're interested in writing nonfiction, they're interested in writing memoir, but they're not quite sure how to go about it. They have some fear about telling their personal stories. What advice would you give to that person? What would you say to someone who is thinking about writing about their own life?
- [41:17]
Ashley C. Ford
Well, the first thing I would say is that writing and publishing are not the same thing. If you feel like you want to write about your life and you're not sure if that's something you want to share or publish. Those decisions can come later. There's nothing that says, because you write something, you have to give it to anyone, show it to anyone, or let anyone read it. You can go through it and figure out if the story is a story you want to share before you start thinking about, you know, how hard it would be to share it. Another thing I would say is that silence is not an equitable trade for love. People who need you to be silent about the way you hurt them in order for you to prove that you love them or forgive them are not people who are loving you very well in that request. It's a very human request to make, but it is not loving. And we have to decide whether or not we can allow a person to put those kind of parameters on their love for us or on our love for them. You have to come up with a really personal definition for what it means to love and care for others. And when you come up with that definition, I would hope that it does not require the lessening or darkening of yourself.
- [42:44]
Chris Duffy
What is your personal definition of love and care?
- [42:47]
Ashley C. Ford
My personal definition of love and care is extending kindness and compassion first and freely and trusting that the accountability I hold the people I love to is mutual and that they are able to hold me accountable in those same ways and for those same reasons. I don't think that because I love a person I need to or have to deny the parts of them that may be flawed or wanting. I think, in fact, that loving them requires me to be honest with them about those things with love and compassion. I try to take the brutal part out of brutal honesty. I don't find that it's very helpful.
- [43:38]
Chris Duffy
It also relates to. I know something people ask you about a lot too, which is reconciliation.
- [43:43]
Ashley C. Ford
You know, when people ask me about things like, how did you continue to love your dad after finding out what he did, after knowing who he had hurt? And the truth is, I mean, I can't really tell you how. I can just tell you that I did, you know, it wasn't a matter of how do I go back to loving my dad? How do I hold on to my love for my dad? It was that my love for my dad never went away. All of these other things came in like the love was still there the whole time. I just stopped being ashamed of myself for loving him. Forgiveness for me is not about saying, hey, it's okay, or hey, you did the right thing, or, hey, I agree with you. Forgiveness for me was giving up on the idea that it was going to be different. This is our life now. This is reality. This is what's true. Let's start from here, and that's a decision that a person can make. That's the decision that I made. Let's start from here and move forward and see what happens. I don't have to forget anything and I don't have to forgive him for anything specific. I don't have to say I forgive you for what you did. I don't have to say I forgive you for who you hurt. A, I don't think I can forgive him for somebody else and B, that's not what my forgiveness is. My forgiveness is you get to be part of my life and we get to see what happens from here.
- [45:24]
Chris Duffy
Ashley C. Ford, this has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for being on the show.
- [45:29]
Ashley C. Ford
Thank you Chris.
- [45:34]
Chris Duffy
That is it for this episode of how to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to today's guest, Ashley C. Ford. Her book is called Somebody's Daughter and I cannot recommend it highly enough. I am your host Chris Duffy and you can find more from me, including my weekly newsletter and other projects@chrisduffycomedy.com how to be a Better Human is put together by a team who make meaning out of my audio files. On the TED side we've got podparents, Daniela Ballorezzo, Banban Chang, Michelle Quint, Chloe Shasha Brooks, Valentina Bohanini, Lainey Lott, Tansika Sung Minivong, Antonio Ley and Joseph De Bruyne. This episode was fact checked by Julia Dickerson and Mattea Salas who love a good nonfiction author. On the PRX side, this is true. They have worked with Ashley C. Ford before and I have never heard them gush about someone the way they gush about her. Morgan Flannery, Nor Gill, Patrick Grant and Jocelyn Gonzalez. Thanks again to you for listening. Please share this episode with a friend who helps you process your life and figure out the meaning of things. Share this with someone who you think would enjoy it. We will be back next week with even more how to Be a Better Human. Until then, thanks for listening and take care.
- [46:46]
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