How to strengthen your relationships — one airport ride at a time (w/ Kasley Killam)

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: How to Be a Better Human
Episode: How to strengthen your relationships — one airport ride at a time (w/ Kasley Killam)
Host: Chris Duffy (TED)
Date: October 6, 2025

In this eye-opening episode, host Chris Duffy sits down with Kasley Killam, author of The Art and Science of Connection, to discuss why social health is as vital as physical or mental health—and how, in a world that values independence and frictionless convenience, we might be robbing ourselves (and others) of genuine, life-changing human connection. The conversation explores the science backing the health benefits of meaningful relationships, practical strategies for building your “social fitness,” and the psychological barriers many of us face when reaching out. With warmth, vulnerability, and practical wisdom, Killam and Duffy urge listeners to take small, sometimes uncomfortable steps—like asking for help or a ride to the airport—that can enrich and transform their lives.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Crisis of Disconnection

• Modern Loneliness is a Public Health Crisis
  • Killam highlights troubling statistics:
    • One in four people globally feels lonely, and 20% of adults have no one to reach out to for support.
    • Loneliness is linked to higher rates of disease, depression, dementia, and premature death.
      Notable quote:

    “One in five people you encounter may feel like they have no one. This is more than heartbreaking, it's also a public health crisis.” – Kasley Killam [01:16]

Social Health Defined

• Social health is distinct yet as vital as physical or mental health.
  • Defined as having meaningful relationships, regular interactions, and a sense of belonging.

    “Decades of research at this point have shown that human connection is so much more important than we realize. ... Our relationships are actually determining how long we live.” – Kasley Killam [04:55]

  • Maintaining meaningful relationships should be seen as essential for health—comparable to not smoking, eating well, or exercising.

    “If you had a really healthy level of connection ... that is more important for your health than anything short of smoking cigarettes.” – Chris Duffy [05:50]

The 5-3-1 Rule: A Practical Framework

• Guideline for Social Health:
  • Aim to connect with five different people each week
  • Cultivate at least three close relationships
  • Spend one hour per day connecting (can be in small increments)
  • Quality is more important than quantity, especially for introverts.

    “If you want some sort of number ... five different people each week, three close relationships, one hour a day connecting.” – Kasley Killam [06:51]

• Diversity of Interactions Matters:
  • It’s uniquely beneficial to connect with people from varying backgrounds and roles (not just close friends/family).

    “Engaging with people who come from a different background ... that's actually uniquely beneficial.” – Kasley Killam [11:12]

The Quality vs. Quantity Debate

• Balance Your Energy & Needs:
  • For extroverts, higher numbers of interactions may feel energizing, while introverts benefit from fewer, deeper connections and need time to recharge. [07:58]
  • The key is understanding and respecting your personality while “stretching your social muscles.”

Small Changes with “Big Bang” Social Impact

• Low-barrier ways to connect:
  • Regular, scheduled interactions (like a weekly breakfast) remove “activation energy.”
  • 10-minute phone calls with loved ones a few times per week measurably reduce loneliness. [13:12]
  • Brief touchpoints (“thinking of you” texts, sharing a memory, etc.) matter.

    “Little touch points like that can be really meaningful.” – Kasley Killam [13:12]

• Social maintenance is like physical exercise:
  • People block off time to go to the gym, but often let time with friends slide to the bottom of the priority list—even though it’s just as vital for long-term health.

    “We easily let our relationships come last.” – Kasley Killam [15:18] “Connection is essential. It's actually determining how long we live.” – Kasley Killam [15:18]

The Downside of Frictionless Convenience

• Efficiency Culture vs. Connection:
  • Modern technology (rideshare apps, grocery delivery, etc.) often removes opportunities for spontaneous human interaction—and the “friction” that forges bonds.

    “By designing everything to be as easy as possible ... we're removing the magic of spontaneous connection.” – Kasley Killam [21:01]

• The Airport Ride Metaphor:
  • Culturally, we often avoid asking friends for “burdensome” favors like a ride to the airport, but these are chances to strengthen relationships; helping makes people feel valued.

    “That's actually robbing people of the chance to help us. ... We deepen our connections when we help other people.” – Kasley Killam [21:49]

  • Both Chris and Kasley admit they struggle with asking for help, despite enjoying being asked for help by others. [22:22]

Why We Struggle to Ask for Help (and How to Overcome It)

• Limiting Beliefs Lead to Isolation:
  • Many people worry that asking for help is burdensome or makes them less likable—yet research shows people typically enjoy being asked and feel more connected as a result.

    “Our own limiting beliefs often get in the way of us being socially healthy.” – Kasley Killam [33:39] “People like us more than we think ... Most of the time, people want connection. And it feels so good when someone is like, hey, I miss you.” – Kasley Killam [34:01]

• Practical Challenge:
  • Kasley challenges Chris (and listeners) to experiment: once a week, ask someone for a favor or help—a small “friction” that feels uncomfortable—and notice the results.

    “Do it as an experiment ... Try one thing where you’re asking someone in your life to help you ... and then see how it goes.” – Kasley Killam [31:39]

  • Chris responds with honest vulnerability:

    “That feels scary. ... This one, I'm like, you're terrified.” – Chris Duffy [32:39]

Connection and Technology: Double-Edged Sword

• AI & Social Media Are No Replacement for Real Connection:
  • AI chatbots used as companions may increase loneliness rather than decrease it (recent MIT Media Lab and OpenAI study).

    “AI chatbots for companionship are not making us less lonely, they're making us more lonely.” – Kasley Killam [24:38]

• Tech Can Also Build Community—for the Isolated:
  • For marginalized or geographically isolated people, online groups can provide unique support networks (e.g., rare disease communities or LGBTQ+ groups). [39:12]

Social Connection Across Groups, Ages, and Genders

• Men’s Friendship Recession:
  • Data show a sharp decline in close friendships among men, with many relying solely on their partners for social connection.

    “There’s a men friendship kind of recession ... where men are relying on their wives in a lot of cases to be that source of social connection.” – Kasley Killam [37:23]

  • Solution: join group activities, sports teams, or hobby-based gatherings—group belonging is powerful even without close one-on-one bonds.
• Kids, Social Media, and the Messiness of Connection:
  • Social technologies can both help and hinder connection among youth; the risks often depend on context, norms, and group inclusion/exclusion.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "One in five people you encounter may feel like they have no one. … Disconnection triggers stress in the body. It weakens people's immune systems." — Kasley Killam [01:16]
• "If you had a really healthy level of connection ... that is more important for your health than anything short of smoking cigarettes." — Chris Duffy [05:50]
• "Aim to connect with five different people each week, cultivate at least three close relationships… one hour a day connecting. … Quality is more important than quantity." — Kasley Killam [06:51]
• "By designing everything to be as easy as possible ... we're removing the magic of spontaneous connection." — Kasley Killam [21:01]
• "That's actually robbing people of the chance to help us. ... We deepen our connections when we help other people." — Kasley Killam [21:49]
• "That feels scary. ... This one, I'm like, you're terrified." — Chris Duffy [32:39]
• "Our own limiting beliefs often get in the way of us being socially healthy." — Kasley Killam [33:39]
• "AI chatbots for companionship are not making us less lonely, they're making us more lonely." — Kasley Killam [24:38]

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Practical Takeaways & Action Steps

Three Ways to Build Connection (That Aren’t About “Friction”) [26:19–27:07]

1. Give someone a compliment
2. Show genuine curiosity – Ask questions and listen deeply.
3. Volunteer or help others – Gives a sense of belonging and purpose.

Three Friction-based Strategies (to Try as a Challenge) [31:39–33:04]

1. Ask someone for a “favor” or help (e.g., a ride, babysitting, help with a move)
2. Host a “Big To Do” party where friends help tackle each other's errands/tasks
3. Experiment with a weekly “ask” to get comfortable with stretching your social comfort zone

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Important Timestamps

• [01:16] — The Scale and Effects of Loneliness (notable quote)
• [04:55] — Social Health’s Impact on Longevity
• [06:51] — The 5-3-1 Rule Explained
• [13:12] — Small Interactions, Big Impact: 10-minute calls, quick texts
• [15:18] — Why We Let Relationships Drop (and why that matters)
• [21:01] — Technology and the Value of Friction
• [21:49] — Asking for Help Strengthens Relationships
• [24:38] — AI Chatbots and Increased Loneliness
• [31:39] — “Friction” Challenge: Weekly Ask-for-Help Experiment
• [33:39] — Changing Limiting Beliefs about Connection
• [37:23] — The Men’s Friendship “Recession” and Group Solutions
• [39:12] — Tech as Lifeline for Marginalized/Isolated Groups

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Final Thoughts

This episode powerfully reframes connection as a necessary part of health, not a luxury or afterthought. Kasley Killam’s science-backed insights and gentle challenges invite listeners to rethink the way they prioritize—and act on—social connection, especially through small acts of “friction.” Whether you’re an introvert who needs encouragement to ask for help, or you’re seeking ways to rebuild or deepen your support network, this conversation offers evidence, empathy, and actionable ideas to start strengthening your relationships—one airport ride (or text, favor, or weekly breakfast) at a time.

Transcript

[A]

You're listening to how to Be a Better Human. I am your host, Chris Duffy. This is an episode of our podcast that has had a direct and immediate impact on my life. My family and I just moved and I was totally overwhelmed by the boxes and the unpacking and all of the logistics. But because of today's guest, Kastly Killam, I sent out an email to a bunch of friends and I asked for help. I was frankly very nervous about sending this email.

[B]

I was worried what people would think.

[A]

Was I being annoying? Was it rude to ask for help? Were people going to stop liking me? But instead, people were so kind and responded and helped us out. And what's more, we had fun. I mean, it was still overwhelming, and I still think moving is extremely unpleasant. It's not like that part changed, but it was a lot less unpleasant than it could have been. And that's because I got so much social support. Today's guest, Kasli Killam, has been studying the importance of social support and connection for years. And as you'll hear in this episode, she directly challenged me to do more, to ask other people for help, to believe that asking for help can, in fact, help strengthen friendships. But Kasly has also been looking at how dire the current state of social connection is, and she believes that we really need to view this as a crisis. Here's a clip from Casley's TED Talk.

[C]

Hundreds of millions of people around the world go weeks at a time without talking to a single friend or family member. Globally, one in four people feel lonely. And 20% of adults worldwide don't feel like they have anyone they can reach out to for support. Think about that. One in five people you encounter may feel like they have no one. This is more than heartbreaking, it's also a public health crisis. Disconnection triggers stress in the body. It weakens people's immune systems. It puts them at a risk. Greater risk of stroke, heart disease, diabetes, dementia, depression, and early death. Social health is essential for longevity. So you might be wondering, what does it look like to be socially healthy? What does that even mean? Well, it's about developing close relationships with your family, your friends, your partner, yourself. It's about having regular interaction with your co workers, your neighbors. It's about feeling like you belong to a community. Being socially healthy is about having the right quantity and quality of connection for you.

[A]

We're going to be back in just a moment with a lot more on the science of social health and connection, including practical steps that you can take to improve your own social health and to make your life better, easier and more fun. So stay tuned.

[B]

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[A]

We're talking about social health and connection today with Kasli Killam.

[C]

Hello, my name is Kasli Killam and I'm the author of the Art and Science of Connection.

[B]

For people who haven't already read your book, let's talk about what social health is. Let's just define the terms.

[C]

Sure. So if you think about physical health as being about your body and mental health as about your mind, social health is about your relationships. So I think it's really important to actually distinguish this as a separate pillar because decades of research at this point have shown that human connection is so much more important than we realize. It's not just something that makes you feel happy when you spend time with your friends and family. It's not just about, you know, mitigating depression or things like that. It literally reduces your risk of things like heart disease and stroke and diabetes and dementia and premature mortality at the very extreme end. So in other words, our relationships are actually determining how long we live. And so social health is about recognizing that and really elevating the fact that this dimension of our well being that comes from connection and community is vital.

[B]

It's essential now just to kind of put that in like a scale. I've heard some researchers who study connection and friendship say that if you had a really healthy level of connection and social life and close community in your life, that that is more important for your health than anything short of smoking cigarettes.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, if you don't smoke cigarettes, the second most important thing you could do to make yourself healthier is to have a connected social life.

[C]

That's right, yeah. Or some studies even show it's the most important thing.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

So I think what it, what that highlights is that we need to elevate connection. Like when we typically talk about what it means to be healthy or what you need to do to be health, we think of like, get a good night's sleep, eat healthy foods, exercise often, don't smoke, things like that. And maintaining meaningful relationships needs to be part of that equation. And we actually need to think about that as vital for our health.

[B]

And you have the 5, 3, 1 rule as a way of doing that.

[C]

Yes, yes. So this is the 531 guideline, or you can think of it as like a challenge. Right. And so the idea is to aim to connect with five different people each week and to cultivate at least three close relationships and to spend one hour a day total connecting. So that's like a benchmark if you're not sure where to start. It's really important to recognize that with connection, quality is more important than quantity, especially for introverts, of which I am so aiming for that more. But if you want some sort of number or some sort of like starting place to help guide your actions, then that can be a helpful starting place. So five different people each week, three close relationships, one hour a day connecting.

[B]

I'm actually kind of interested that quality is more important than quantity. Yeah, that doesn't seem totally intuitive to me. Right. Like if, if social life is so important, maybe I should meet 20 people in a week and that would be my. Wow, I really put myself out there week versus like having one conversation for two hours with my brother.

[C]

Like, yeah.

[B]

It's not immediately obvious to me that the second is better than the first.

[C]

Yeah. Oh, good. This is fun. So I think what's important here is it depends on your personality. Right. So if you're someone who's really extroverted and you thrive on socializing with people all the time and meeting new people, and it's very energizing for you to be around people all the time, then that might actually be true for you. Right. And 5, 3, 1. Those numbers might seem really low for you, but it's also true that socializing more is not necessarily better. So I'm an introvert, which might be surprising because I talk all about connection. But what that just means, it doesn't mean that I don't need connection less than. Than an extrovert. It just means that the amount of interaction that's fulfilling and energizing to me and the ways that I enjoy connecting might be different. And so this is where kind of individual differences and preferences really come into play.

[B]

I am very far on the extrovert side, but my wife is very much an introvert. And I feel like one of the ways that it often plays out is not that we like. Not that she doesn't need interaction with friends and to meet new people, but that afterwards she needs time alone.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Like that was a whole new idea to me that someone could be like, now I need to go in a room alone for a while. Not because I'm upset.

[C]

Yeah, no, I love that. I love that you called that out. And it's interesting how many times I meet people who are an extrovert, introvert couple. But yeah, that's exactly it. We introverts love connecting with other people, especially on a deeper level. But we need to balance that with solitude. And that kind of alone time to recharge our batteries is super important. And so that's why we can think about being socially healthy is partly connecting with others. It's also connecting with yourself and making sure that that's part of your overall kind of social life.

[B]

Do you think that there is, like, I don't know if it would be evolutionary, but is there some reason tied to the health benefits that you've been talking about with social health for why introverts and extroverts might end up together? Like, you kind of intuitively know that for your long term health, you need someone who's gonna push you a little bit. And you also know if you're me, that you need someone who's gonna be like, let's take a little time alone too. Yeah, I wonder if there's some reason for that.

[C]

I wonder if there is too I mean, not that I've come across in the research, but it makes sense. I think there's also this idea of, you know, there'. So, for example, there are studies showing that even introverts end up feeling happier when they socialize a bit more than they think they would enjoy. Right. And extroverts enjoy going deeper into conversation than they might kind of do on a normal basis. And so I think there's something to this idea of, like, stretching our social muscles and going a bit outside of our comfort zones in either direction, where having a partner who kind of pulls you toward that middle and challenges you a bit is probably a good thing.

[B]

How would someone actually do this? Like, how do you have five connections in a week?

[C]

Yeah, you already do for sure.

[B]

Well, I do because it's like, professionally, I have to.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah. But actually, does that count if I'm doing it for work? Does it count?

[C]

It can definitely.

[B]

Can I count this as one of my friends?

[C]

Yeah, I can count this. Yeah. Yeah. We're connecting. Okay. Sure. This is fun.

[B]

I feel bad. I'm glad to know it's reciprocal, but, like, that would count even if it's like, a work setting.

[C]

Yeah. So the way I would think about it is it's about having diverse social interactions. The number five in the five through one. Right. So the research shows that you don't want to just put all your eggs in one basket or all your interactions with one person. Right. So if you only were socializing with your wife and just neglected your other connections, that would be problematic. It's actually uniquely beneficial to engage with a variety of people. Friends, coworkers, neighbors. Right. All different kinds of people. And people who aren't like you, too. There's really interesting data showing that when you engage with people who come from a different background, have different beliefs, are of different ages and so on, that's actually uniquely beneficial. And so, yeah, I would. I would say, you know, it could be engaging with your close loved ones, it could be engaging with colleagues. It could be chatting with the barista or the bus driver or. Or things like that. Or having a friendly interaction with your neighbor. Right. It's just about having diverse interaction so that your social life feels a little bit more vibrant and so that you're bringing out different parts of your personality with different people.

[B]

Especially since you're an introvert. People must ask you this because it's hard for them, too. What do you find are some of the biggest, like, bang for your buck social interactions? I'll just give you what I Assume is an example, which is I have a. I've had for years a weekly breakfast scheduled with one of my closest friends. So every Tuesday morning we have breakfast. It's on the calendar. When we're traveling, we do it on the phone. But for me, the reason that's such like a big bang for my buck is it requires no scheduling. It actually requires work to cancel it.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And so, you know, it's just on my calendar. It's on his calendar, we do it.

[C]

Yep. I love it. That's one of the tips of my book.

[B]

Oh, yeah, I know, that's why I brought it up. But so for me, that's like that one. Like, I put that into place in my own life and I really see the benefits of it. What about. What are some other ones that are uniquely. You get a lot more out than you put in.

[C]

Yeah. Well, I think what's interesting here is there are quite a few studies showing that really simple forms of connection on an ongoing basis can be really rewarding. So for example, there was one study that looked at 10 minute phone calls multiple times a week. And people who engaged in those phone calls, just 10 minutes actually felt less lonely, like measurably less lonely after I think it was about a month or maybe two month period. Right. So even a 10 minute phone call with someone you love, an old friend, a family member a few times a week, or things as simple as, you know, texting a friend and saying, I'm thinking about you. I think there's, there are really easy ways that we can kind of weave this in. Like as soon as someone, you know comes into your head, right. You like randomly think of a colleague or you hear a song on the radio and it reminds you of a friend, text that person or email that person right away and just say, hey, this made me think of you. Little touch points like that can be really meaningful. Now, of course, we need deeper connection too. And so when you talk about like bang for your buck, it's important that we're making sure we prioritize deeper quality time too. But I think it's easy to like, something I hear all the time is that I'm just busy. Like I don't have time to, you know, spend two hours a week having breakfast with my friend or whatever, when in fact we can weave it in in smaller ways that are still impactful.

[B]

Yeah. Something that you talked about in the book and in your talk that I think really resonates with me is that's not like the language that people use when they think about their physical health.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Like, people get that it, of course, it takes time to go to the gym. It takes time to go for a run. It takes time to find time to buy the salad ingredients instead of eating in a fast food chain. But people kind of understand that that time pays off in all these other ways, and it's important. And I think there is this idea that because often taking care of your social health feels good. Like, it's often fun, people are like, well, that. That's like a bonus. That's icing on the cake.

[C]

Yes, exactly.

[B]

Can you talk about, like, how to combat that?

[C]

Yeah. I think that's what I'm really trying to fight is this idea that we think our relationships or we easily let our relationships come last. Right. Like, it's the last priority. It's kind of like our jobs come first. You know, we're so busy working all the time and, oh, if I get around to it, I'll hang out with. With my friends. And I'm so guilty of this. Let me be very clear. I'm guilty of this, too. So this is as much a reminder for myself as well, when actually what we need to really integrate into our understanding as individuals and as a society is that connection is essential. It's actually determining how long we live in addition to the quality of our living when we're alive. But also coming back to your point about how we think about exercise, for example, so we walked here together and we took the escalator. We should have taken the stairs. Right. And that's an example of like a sample, simple change that you can make. That. Yeah, it's not spending an hour at the gym, but walking up the stairs is better for you than taking the escalator. So think about that with connection as well. Like, what are there? How are there small opportunities in your everyday to weave connection in even if you don't have time for, you know, a long hangout with someone?

[A]

Well, we are going to be hanging out more with Casley in just a moment, but first, some quick podcast ads.

[B]

So don't go anywhere.

[F]

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[B]

Dude, did you order the new iPhone 17 Pro? Got it from Verizon, the best 5G network in America. I've never looked so good. You look the same. But with this camera, everything looks better. Especially me. You haven't changed your hair in 15 years. Selfies check please.

[D]

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[A]

And we are back with Kazly Killam.

[B]

This is me getting a little bit up on a philosophical soapbox here, but you know, we're here at the TED conference in Vancouver. That's where we're recording this. There are so Many people here who are very, very deep in the technology world. And one of the big things that is getting talked about right now is all these potentials and possibilities for AI and artificial intelligence. And something that I'm always really struck by with that is that it's like, there really feels like this philosophical goal of making things as easy and efficient and smooth as possible.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And to me, that philosophical goal of, like, how can I get from A to B as quickly as possible, it kind of seems really at odds with connection and with having human experiences and creating memories with people. Right. Like, it's so rare that a great memory of a friend is like, and we were traveling, and, boy, did that flight take off on time. You know, like, that's, like, never a good story. Like, you want the circuitous route. That's where you build relationships and connection. And I feel like so much of technology is trying to get us from A to B faster, when maybe that we haven't thought about what we do when we get to B.

[C]

Absolutely. Yeah. Or think about, you know, ordering your groceries instead of going to the grocery store where you would otherwise have to talk with the cashier, or maybe ask a question of where to find something. Right. You're so right that I think by designing everything to be as easy as possible and as frictionless as possible, we're removing the. The magic of spontaneous connection, which can happen in everyday life. And I think that's a problem. I also think another example of this is not wanting to burden other people. Now there's this kind of idea of, oh, I can just call an Uber or a taxi to go to the airport, so I shouldn't burden my friend or my family member to drive me. Right. Or other examples where it's like, there's this reluctance to, you know, I'm going away for a week. Can you babysit my pet? Right. Things like that we're just fearful or we feel like a burden if we're asking for help, but that's actually robbing people of the chance to help us. And the research also shows that we feel more connected and we deepen our connections when we help other people. And so I actually would invite us all, including myself, to think about asking for help or being a burden or creating friction as a way to give others an opportunity to feel like they matter to you.

[B]

This is one that I struggle with personally a lot.

[C]

Me too. Me too.

[B]

I love when people ask me to help them with something. I feel so needed, and it feels so fun and connected. And then when the flip Side, I get so in my head of like, oh, my gosh, it's gonna put too much pressure on them. They're gonna feel like they have to say yes. They're actually gonna secretly hate me because I did this, and so I don't do it. And I think that it's a real loss for me. I really do. But I struggle with it a lot.

[C]

Yeah. Or I think another example of this is going to a different city and wanting to stay with a friend versus staying in a hotel or an Airbnb, for example. Like, that can feel like a burden nowadays. Where have we gotten in our lives and our society where we feel like we're burdening other people when we want to spend time with them and be together? Like, this is a fundamental shift that needs to happen where we need to go back toward recognizing that it's a gift to be able to spend time together and to take care of someone else.

[B]

I think also, at least in my experience, it feels like when we're younger, the societal expectations are a lot looser around that. Like, of course, you don't have any money. You're just starting out. If you come to Boston, you're gonna sleep on my couch.

[C]

So true.

[B]

And then as we get a little older, I mean, partly it's like sleeping on a couch is gonna destroy my back for a week in a way that it wouldn't when I was 19. But I also think there's just kind of this, like, at a time when we need the connection more, we feel more awkward about asking for it. And I'm using the royal we here because I'm definitely talking about myself, but I think it applies to a lot of people.

[C]

No, I feel I totally struggle with this as well. Yeah, it's really interesting. And all the trends in the data are showing we're spending more time alone, we have fewer close friends, we belong to fewer community groups. That's a problem that's affecting our social health, that's affecting our mental health, that's affecting our physical health. And circling back, you brought up before kind of AI, which, like you said, is the talk of TED this week, there's a huge trend of designing AI and using AI as a replacement for companionship and for connection. And there are a lot of tools where people are using AI chatbots as friends, as romantic partners, not necessarily as a supplement to human connection, but as a substitute to human connection. And one of the things I explored in my book was kind of getting to know some of these people who are using this. And I Tried it out myself as well. And really thinking about this question of, does it matter if the connection that you feel is coming from code rather than cells and from AI rather than IQ or eq and from data networks rather than neural networks? Like, does that matter? And there was actually just a study that came out a couple weeks ago from researchers at the MIT Media Lab and OpenAI showing that higher daily use of these chatbots associated with more loneliness, more emotional dependence, and less socialization with other real humans. So what the data is starting to show is AI chatbots for companionship are not making us less lonely, they're making us more lonely. And so I think as we continue down this path of shaping what the future of AI and technology is going to be, this is something we need to pay a lot of attention to and be really intentional about, because I think technology, as we've seen with social media, can help deepen your relationships or it can really destroy them.

[B]

What are three things that people can do to make more of these connections, to build a little bit more of this friction and dependency into their lives? Right. I mean, obviously one is you can. If you need a ride to the airport, you can ask someone. They can always say no. But what are some. What are three ways that you would suggest people who are watching or listening.

[C]

Try to create friction or to just connect in general?

[B]

I was actually thinking of them interchangeably. So if they're different. Well, let's start with how do you see them as different?

[C]

Okay.

[B]

And then you can give us the three.

[C]

Well, I think there are a lot of ways to connect meaningfully that aren't necessarily creating friction, like giving someone a compliment or showing genuine curiosity and wanting to get to know someone more and asking questions more than you talk yourself or, you know, volunteering. Right. Like finding opportunities to help other people. Those are ways that we can feel more connected to the community that we live in, that we can feel like we belong and like it matters that we're alive. And those aren't necessarily creating friction between humans. They're just kind of giving and adding into. Into our culture.

[B]

Yeah, I think those are three great ways. And I can immediately think about in my own life how dramatically they pay off when I do any of those three things.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Okay. So then I see now how the friction doesn't have to be necessary. But let's talk about the friction one, because at least for me, selfishly, yeah, I'm pretty good at doing those other ones. Yeah, I'm pretty good at about, like saying giving someone a compliment Yeah, I genuinely am very curious. Some would say too curious. And like, for me, volunteering is the only way that I can combat my pervasive feeling that the world is collapsing around me. But then when I go to the food pantry where I go every week, I feel like, oh, well, actually here's a bunch of people who are just doing something good for other people. And I always leave there not feeling panicked about the future of the world. And it's not like the news changed while I was in there. So those are ones that I really recommend to people. But I also feel like I'm kind of good at on my own and I don't feel like I'm good at the friction ones.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So.

[C]

So what's an example of where you feel friction coming up?

[B]

I would never ask someone to drive me to the airport.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, that's a tricky one because driving to the airport, I mean, I live in la. It's like a three hour round trip.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Extravaganza. Yes.

[B]

I think because we both live in la, that's part of it. But even, even taking it away from the, the horror, the unique horrors of the Los Angeles International Airport. I have a young kid and I know that a lot of my friends like spending time with kids in general, that the idea of saying, hey, you want to come over and hang out with me and play with the baby isn't a real burden. But it feels to me like it's harder to ask for something that is helpful. Like just to give an exact, a real example in my life.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

It feels so much easier to me to say to a friend, will you come over and I will bake croissants? Something that takes a lot of work for me, your friend.

[C]

Wow, that's awesome.

[B]

This is how I get people over. But like that, that I'm like, great, I did that. And it's so much harder to say, will you come over and play with our son for an hour so that I can record something I need to record?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Like I'm so much more inclined to pay someone to do that. So I think I end up doing these ones that are really hard. And as a result, yeah, I don't see people as much as I would see them.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Because it's not like every day I can bake croissants.

[C]

Yeah.

[H]

Hi, I'm Madhupak and Ola from TED Business and I'm here to talk about the Financial Times. Every day the world bombards you with endless headlines and noise. What matters most, Facts and Context. That's where the financial times comes in. With clarity, depth and truly independent reporting, the FT helps you cut through the noise and see what's real and why it matters. Stay informed with the trusted source leaders around the world rely on. Visit FT.comSourceFT to read more and save 40% on a digital FT subscription.

[B]

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[C]

Okay, I think we should do a challenge. I think you should do one a week where you ask someone to help you with something that makes you feel a little uncomfortable and think of it as an experiment. I have a whole chapter in my book on experimenting and thinking like a scientist about our social health. So I would do it as an experiment like for one month, every week. Try one thing where you are asking someone in your life to help you or something that feels like there's friction and a little bit of burden and Then see how it goes and monitor. How do you feel afterward? How do they feel? Are you more connected? You can even ask them, does this feel like a burden? Like, just get really transparent about it and curious. And I bet that at the end of the month of trying four different things, you're gonna realize all your friends loved it. And we're so happy to have the opportunity to love on you and support you in that way and also to spend more time together. So that's the hypothesis. And I wanna see you test it.

[B]

I want to do this.

[C]

You're terrifying.

[B]

No, I'm just genuinely. My honest, genuine reaction to that is. That feels scary.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

It does not feel like an easy challenge. Like sometimes on this show people are like, here's a challenge. What if you scrolled through your phone and texted someone different? And I'm like, all right, I text someone. But this one, I'm like, you're terrified.

[C]

Oh, good. I like that.

[B]

Let's try it. Which probably means that it's more important.

[C]

To do or even start with one. Try it once. Literally try it once and then see what happens.

[B]

It is such an interesting thing. Cause, you know, often in therapy the question is like, how would you feel if this was someone else?

[C]

Right. How would you feel if your friend asked you that?

[B]

I love being asked that.

[C]

Yeah, always.

[B]

My friend Olivia had this idea for a party that she calls the big to do. And it's you bring over your to do list and you all do stuff together. You all help each other get your to do list on. And I was like, that is the most fun idea for a party. But then it was like, would I host a big to do at my house where it's my to do list? No.

[C]

No. I don't want to share my choice.

[B]

But I would love to be invited to a To do list. And it's not even about the privacy of my to do list. It's just like. But I could never ask you to help with mine. But I would love to help with yours.

[C]

That's my interesting. I think what this highlights to me is something that came up to me when I was researching for the book, which is this idea that our own limiting beliefs often get in the way of us being socially healthy. So a lot of times when people feel lonely, a lot of the time some of the drivers of that are self limiting beliefs, like feeling really socially anxious, assuming that other people don't like you in social interactions, assuming that it's going to go badly or. Or thinking that you might be a burden Right. Like, these are examples of ways that we can kind of get in our own heads and then either not even go into the interaction at all, or when you go and are with someone, you have these thoughts in your head and they're actually preventing you from just relaxing and being who you are and engaging in a natural way. And so one of the kind of most common ways in the research of addressing loneliness is therapy to address those limiting beliefs. But I think all of us can kind of take heart in the fact that there are also studies showing people like us more than we think, people appreciate hearing from us more than we think. Like, most of the time, people want connection. And it feels so good when someone is like, hey, I miss you. I want to hang out with you. It feels good to be wanted and loved. And so maybe keeping that in the back of our minds and realizing, you know what, chances are people are gonna be receptive to this and giving it a go.

[B]

Two things that I wanna touch on. I'm just gonna say these so I remember them and put the pin in them is one is like, kind of the ways in which different identities struggle with this. And then another is some of the science around young people and technology. There's often kind of like a moral panic around young people and smartphones and screens. But I've seen some recent research that shows that actually, kids who don't have smartphones often suffer from a lack of connection to their peers. So I'm certainly not arguing for everyone to have a smartphone or for, like, the power of social media, but I do think that often these things are more complicated. Right. It's not like if we just got rid of all smartphones, then kids would be instantly more connected. And I wonder, as someone who's looked a lot into this, where that messiness of, like, the line between connection and disconnection is, because these technologies can do both.

[C]

Yeah, for sure. It is messy, and so much of it depends on how we're using these tools. I think in that example that you shared, the bigger problem is that those kids are in the minority. Most other kids are on smartphones. And so if you're not, you're left out. Right. If all your friends are on TikTok and Snapchat and you're not allowed to be on that device, that's a problem. And that's where I love John Haidt's recommendation of we all need to create a new kind of social norm around this. And if everyone's kids are not allowed to go on social media until a certain Age, then that kind of eliminates that problem, I think. I suspect that that's what's going on in that example.

[B]

But I do think that certain groups it affects differently. So an example I'll give is as a heterosexual married man, I definitely notice that many heterosexual married men have very low levels of social connection.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

That there's a lot of people who it is all through their wife and that even their social connections are kind of like scheduled, like play dates by their wife in some way.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So what advice would you have for people who are watching or listening where they are in a relationship and their partner has very low social health and they're worried about their partner?

[C]

Yeah, that's a great question. Well, first of all, I want to double click on that idea, which is there's a lot of data suggesting that there's a men friendship kind of recession. Some people are calling it, like there's a true problem for men in forming friendships and maintaining friendships. And so that's something that I think a lot of people feel where, you know, where men are relying on their wives in a lot of cases to be that source of social connection. I think one of the solutions for this can be men joining other community groups. It's so important for us all to be part of groups that make us feel like we belong in a different context, even if it isn't like a one on one friendship. So whether that's joining a sports team or, or, and you know, taking an improv class or joining a book club or whatever that might be, that's of interest. Doing something where you can come together with other men and do a shared activity, I think is one way that we need to kind of change the norms around this because that takes the pressure off of like, you need to develop this new deep friendship, you know, like. No, just go hang out with a group who you can see on a regular basis where you have something in common.

[B]

Yeah. I think that also is a low stakes way of really making it happen.

[C]

Exactly. Yeah.

[B]

Okay. And then what about if you are a group where there's some stigma and there's some prejudice and you may not have many other individuals who identify the way you do around you. So I'm thinking like if you're a trans person or if you live in a rural area and you are. But also, even if you were like, I'm a dancer and there's no dance studio around me.

[C]

Yeah, totally.

[B]

It doesn't have to be, you know, these higher stakes social identifiers. But I think often like the queer community and the trans community are extremely good at building community. But what about for people who are having trouble finding those people around them?

[C]

Well, this is where I think a good use case of technology comes up and I think this is one of the best examples of where we can find community and connection digitally. And another example I would give for that is, you know, people with a rare disease where maybe there's no one in their town who shares that disease, but they can connect with them online and find communities where they can share information and support each other on their health journeys. And so that's, I think, kind of the best case scenario of us using technology to find support that we wouldn't be able to get in person otherwise.

[B]

Well, Kasslie, thank you so much for being here. It was a really pleasure talking to you.

[C]

Thank you. This was so fun.

[A]

That is it for this episode of how to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to today's guest, Kazli Killam. Her book is called the Art and Science of Connection. I am your host Chris Duffy and my new book, Humor Me about how to Laugh More Every Day is available for pre order now. You can find info about my book and all of my other [e-mail] how to be a Better Human is put together by a team who are deeply connected to this audio. On the TED side we've got social savants. Daniela Valorezzo, Banban Chang, Michelle Quint, Chloe Shasha Brooks, Valentina Bohanini, Lainey Lot, Tanzika, Sung Manivong, Antonia Le and Joseph De Bruyne. This episode was fact checked by Julia Dickerson and Mattea Salas who bond over reputable data sources. On the PRX side we've got the audio friends you want in your corner. Morgan Flannery, nor Gill, Patrick Grant and Jocelyn Gonzalez. Thanks again to you for listening. Thanks again for being a part of our social network here. Please share this episode with a person who you are glad to be connected to. We will be back next week with even more how to Be a Better Human.

[B]

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Hi, I'm Madhupak and Ola from Ted Business and I'm here to talk about the Financial Times. Every day the world bombards you with endless headlines and noise. What matters most? Facts and context. That's where the Financial Times comes in. With clarity, depth and truly independent reporting, the FT helps you cut through the noise and see what's real and why it matters. Stay informed with the trusted source leaders around the world rely on. Visit FT.comSourceFT to read more and save 40% on a digital FT subscription.

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