How to talk about your body without shame (w/ Anita Rao)

Summary

Podcast Summary: "How to Talk About Your Body Without Shame" (w/ Anita Rao)

How to Be a Better Human hosted by comedian Chris Duffy features an insightful and heartfelt conversation with Anita Rao, the journalist behind the podcast Embodied. Released on December 16, 2024, this episode delves deep into breaking taboos surrounding discussions about our bodies and brains, exploring the evolution of our relationship with our physical selves over time.

1. Introduction and Guest Background

Chris Duffy opens the episode by introducing Anita Rao and setting the stage for a conversation about navigating the complexities of discussing our physical selves. A clip from Anita’s podcast Embodied is featured early on, where she reflects on her ongoing journey to understand her body and the anxieties tied to aging and self-perception.

Notable Quote:

Anita Rao (00:24): "Even though it's been mine for a couple of decades now, on a lot of levels, I'm still getting to know my body."

2. Origin and Purpose of Embodied

Anita Rao provides a comprehensive overview of how Embodied came to be. She explains that the podcast was born out of her experiences in public radio, where conversations about the body, sexuality, and gender were often sidelined. Seeking a more liberated platform, Rao and a colleague launched a community radio show, allowing them the freedom to explore these vital topics without the constraints of mainstream media.

Notable Quote:

Anita Rao (08:03): "We always kind of push stories to the forefront that were about like the body and about sexuality and about gender... It still felt like a very small portion of what we were talking about."

3. Navigating Public Perception and Negative Feedback

Rao candidly discusses the challenges of engaging in open conversations about intimate subjects. She shares her struggles with receiving negative feedback, particularly concerning the sound of her voice rather than the content of her discussions. This feedback initially discouraged her, but ultimately fueled her determination to continue advocating for these important conversations.

Notable Quote:

Anita Rao (13:34): "It was really hard. Like, it was... I still have like a folder in my inbox that I don't look at very often anymore."

4. Personal Relationships with Body and Self

The conversation shifts to Rao’s personal relationship with her body and self-perception. She recounts her upbringing in a household where open discussions about bodily functions were normalized, thanks to her father’s profession as a gastroenterologist. This environment fostered a sense of comfort and lack of shame around physical sensations, contrasting with her current challenges in staying connected to her body amidst a predominantly head-focused mindset.

Notable Quote:

Anita Rao (04:44): "I grew up with a very, like, close relationship with my... physical sensations and no shame around... talking about them."

5. Importance of Open Conversations About Body and Sex

Anita emphasizes the necessity of having open discussions about the body, sex, and relationships to foster collective wisdom and reduce shame. She highlights the importance of intergenerational dialogues, sharing insights from her own experiences interviewing her parents about their biracial family dynamics and the cultural barriers they faced in discussing feelings and bodily topics.

Notable Quote:

Anita Rao (25:43): "We need to start these conversations so we can actually realize what we're actually trying to talk about beyond the... words and the terminology."

6. Challenges and Insights on Reducing Shame

The dialogue explores the balance between reducing shame and maintaining the specialness of intimate experiences. While Rao acknowledges that open discussions might make personal experiences feel less unique, she argues that increasing self-awareness and reducing internal barriers is crucial for deeper personal connections and overall well-being.

Notable Quote:

Anita Rao (28:15): "We need to find ways to reduce the barriers you have inside yourself... building that awareness is the first step toward accessing more pleasure and sexual connection."

7. Advice for Listeners on Starting the Conversation

In the final segment, Anita shares practical advice for listeners looking to begin their own journeys toward open, shame-free discussions about their bodies and relationships:

1. Approach with Curiosity: Encourage genuine curiosity about one's beliefs and attitudes without judgment.

   Quote:

   Anita Rao (34:30): "Approach yourself with genuine curiosity and... start there with just, like, no judgment."

2. Set the Table for Conversations: Be intentional in initiating discussions, ensuring that all parties are prepared and comfortable.

   Quote:

   Anita Rao (35:56): "Make sure you actually set the table for that conversation."

3. Manage Conversational Pacing: Create space within conversations by allowing pauses and practicing affirmative listening to ensure a respectful and meaningful dialogue.

   Quote:

   Anita Rao (36:35): "Force yourself to sit with discomfort in a very actionable, tangible way... creating space."

Conclusion

Chris Duffy and Anita Rao conclude the episode by reinforcing the importance of these conversations in fostering personal growth and collective understanding. The episode serves as a compelling guide for anyone looking to overcome shame and engage in more meaningful discussions about their bodies and relationships.

Closing Quote:

Anita Rao (37:30): "Thank you so much. What a pleasure."

This episode of How to Be a Better Human offers profound insights and actionable steps for listeners seeking to improve their relationship with their bodies and embrace more open, shame-free dialogues about intimate aspects of human experience.

Transcript

[Chris Duffy]

You are listening to how to Be a Better Human. I am your host, Chris Duffy. And today on the show, we're going to be talking with journalist Anita Rao about how to break taboos when discussing our bodies and our brains. What does it mean to have a relationship with your physical self? And how does that change over time? Here's a clip from Anita's fantastic podcast Embodied.

[Anita Rao]

Even though it's been mine for a couple of decades now, on a lot of levels, I'm still getting to know my body. I also know that my body is going to keep changing as I age inside and out and probably in some ways that I never guess as body and sex positive as I like to think that I am, I'll admit that I'm worried. What will turning 50, 60, 70 due to my sexual desire, my comfort with and confidence in my own appearance and my ability to welcome new relationships into my life.

[Chris Duffy]

Keep your body listening to this show because we're going to be right back with an amazing conversation right after this break.

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[Anita Rao]

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[Anita Rao]

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[Anita Rao]

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[Chris Duffy]

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[Anita Rao]

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[Chris Duffy]

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[Anita Rao]

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[Chris Duffy]

Extra speed slower above 40 GB on unlimited. See mintmobile.com for details. Today we're talking about bodies and what it means to be a human who navigates the world in a physical form. With Anita Rao.

[Anita Rao]

Hey, my name is Anita Rao. I am the host of Embodied from North Carolina Public Radio, wunc. It's a show about sex, relationships and health that takes on taboo topics.

[Chris Duffy]

It's always interesting to think about the title of your show Embodied, but also just how we experience things in our body when you and I are not in the same room. Right? You're in a closet in your house. I am in a little pod in my house. So there's something funny about the way that we connect these days that doesn't actually involve our bodies often.

[Anita Rao]

Oh, it's so true. And it's something I have been thinking about so much. We actually started this show in the pandemic and it was a moment where I was craving so much connection and the ability to be with people in person and doing this show about the experience of connection and connection with our bodies. But I had to do it all virtually without being with people in person. So I remember the first time we had an embodied event where we were in person with people post pandemic for the first time. I just felt such a sense of relief and release to be like, oh, it feels so different to be in conversation about these topics when I can actually see people's faces. When you're having, you're able to like share your physical reaction about something with someone, it's a very, very different experience.

[Chris Duffy]

How do you stay in your body? Especially because this is something I always think is really interesting about radio and podcasting is in some ways it's such an intimate medium because we're talking into people's ears, but in other ways it's also very. I wish there was a more positive way of saying the word alienating because we talk to people who we can't see and can't really understand whether they are actually listening to us or not. I guess there's an assumption that there's an audience. So how do you stay in your body since I know that's something that you really care about?

[Anita Rao]

Yeah, it's definitely a practice and something I have to work really hard to do. My dad is a physician. He is a gastroenterologist. He's a poop doctor. And I grew up in a household where, like, we could really talk about our bodies and our physical sensations very openly. Like, my. My friends would come over and joke that, like, they could announce that they were farting at the dinner table. And, like, it's not an exaggeration. Like, if you farted at the dinner table, you owned it. Like, you. That's just something we all do. We all poop, we all fart. And so in some ways, I grew up with a very, like, close relationship with my, like, physical sensations and no shame around, like, expressing them or talking about them or asking questions about them. And still to this day, like, when I'm having, like, a stomach issue or whatever, I will call my dad immediately, be like, here's what it looks like. Here's what my poop looks like. Here's a photograph. Like, so in some ways, I have no shame around that kind of thing. So I think that's really helped, like, me be able to get in touch with my physical body in that way. I think I am a very heady person, though. So while I can, like, notice a sensation, a physical sensation, like, I'm very attuned to, if I'm, like, hot or cold or feeling uncomfortable, it is harder for me to, like, get out of my head and into my body in the ways of meditation or sitting with myself in silence. And so that, to me, is. Has been, like, my work as an adult. And a big thing that I try to, like, take home messages from the show is, like, figuring out ways to actually integrate feelings into my body more instead of just, like, really living in my head.

[Chris Duffy]

There are so many great episodes of Embodied, but certainly my favorite episode is one with both of your parents where you interviewed them and you're talking to them about growing up in a biracial family and the ways in which that affected you and affected them and how they thought about it then, how they think about it now. And there's just. It's so wonderful because your parents are both like, yes, but also you are perfect, and we think you are perfect, and everything you do is wonderful. So I can imagine how, having heard a little bit of your mom and dad talk, that they would be like, anything that comes out of your body is perfect too, because you are a perfect creature.

[Anita Rao]

I love that reflection. It's very true. But it's so funny because, like so many of the things that I have talked about with them on the show, we have never talked about off mic. There was still so much that we didn't talk about. We didn't really talk much about feelings. My mom is British, grew up in like a very British, like zipped up family. My dad is Indian and grew up in a very culturally Indian household where, like, you don't talk about that kind of stuff. So neither of them really had the language to talk about their feelings and didn't necessarily, like, encourage that in us. So there's so much that I have like dug through with them in real time with microphones in front of us that I had never done beforehand. One of the joys of having them on this show is like actually like empowering myself to have these conversations with them that I don't think I would have had without a microphone in front of me.

[Chris Duffy]

If someone is listening to this and they aren't familiar with embodied, can you give us a little bit of the history of the show? And I know you wrote a really interesting piece about how this, the idea for the show and what it is came out of some of your feelings when you were first kind of moving into the host role on air in a public radio station.

[Anita Rao]

I think so much of it was kind of this culmination of like, things realizing there were a lot of things that I was really curious about and excited about that I feel like I wasn't, I wasn't hearing the conversations about those things in the spaces that I was a part of every single day. And at that time, that space most often was a public radio station based in the south, where I was working on a statewide daily talk show. And as a producer, I would always kind of push stories to the forefront that were about like the body and about sexuality and about gender. But that would be like one hour of radio out of the, you know, five hours we did every week, out of the however many hours every month. And so it still felt like a very small portion of what we were talking about on the side. My friend and I started our own radio show at a community radio station. It's a low power radio station that didn't like signal didn't reach very far. And I think that was honestly really liberating. Was like great. Like unless someone is tuned in to the live stream or within like a 15 mile radius of us right now, we can kind of say what we want. And it was like a great practice and freedom for me of like learning how to be on a mic and getting more comfortable asking questions and talking about my own feelings without being worried about, you know, what would happen, what would people say, who was going to hear it So I was doing that show on the side. And then I got the opportunity to host the big radio show that I worked for. And it was really started as an experiment. Like, the host of the show was beginning to look toward retirement and wanted to start spending his summers in Buffalo, New York. And we always joke in public radio, like, the summer is when you can kind of try anything because people aren't. People aren't listening, like, as much as other times of year. So, like, if it was a total flop, like, yeah, we'd get in trouble, but, like, it would be more okay than if it was a total flop, like in October. So we. I just was like, these are the things that I would love to talk about. Let's create this, like one time, four part series about sex, relationships and health. And I had such a good time doing it. We got really good feedback from. Well, we got a lot of feedback. Some that was really good, some that was challenging. But in some ways, both of those kinds of feedback empowered me to keep going on. I was really learning my own voice at the time and learning, like, how to sound like myself on the air. And a lot of the negative feedback that we got was about my voice and, like, the actual sound of my voice. And it was really hard. Like, it was. I still have like a folder in my inbox that I. I don't look at very often anymore. But, like, it's where all the negative feedback goes. And it's, I think, something that happens to a lot of women in journalism less and less. So now that there are so many more kinds of voices on the air, but still in public radio, like, it's. There's still a very distinct sou and I have like a pretty neutral voice. I grew up in the Midwest. I don't really have an accent, but I'm a millennial. So I have some vocal fry and I have some upspeak. And it's those kind of things that I would get a lot of feedback about. The fact that I was talking about things that felt so important and what people were hearing was just the sound of my voice was so maddening to me that it kind of like lit a fire under me to keep doing it more and be like, eventually you'll actually listen to the content of the words that I'm saying, not just how I'm saying them. So, yeah, I think all of that kind of combined was the personal reasons why I wanted to be on the radio and have these conversations, and then the desire that I had to hear the topics that I Cared about, talked about on a bigger scale, set me on the embodied path.

[Chris Duffy]

Some of the feedback that you got, negative feedback about your voice and the things you were talking about. You have a folder in your email where you keep negative comments or negative emails that people have sent. I'm curious about that because to me, I would think someone sends something negative, I'm going to delete it. I don't want to ever see that again. So tell me about keeping them and having them have a space and what that does for you or why you do that.

[Anita Rao]

I'm a perfectionist at my core and I am a really self critical person. But I also really like feedback. And so I think for me, part of keeping it in a folder is I can notice what it is and I can put it there and I can say if you need to come back to this at some point, for whatever reason, it's there. But right now you don't actually need to care about this. You don't actually need to focus on it. It's like a way of keeping myself from myself and protecting myself while being like, if there's ever a universe in which like that could be helpful for you, it's there. And honestly, when I wrote an essay for the Huffington Post about embodied and I was like, I'm actually glad I have this folder so I can go back and be like, what did people say? Like, what were those wacky things? So I can see my own growth and how I respond to them. But I don't necessarily need to know everything that it says. So I have to just, I have to put it somewhere in case I need to go back to it at some point.

[Chris Duffy]

I think that probably for a lot of the people listening, whether they're in the United States or not, and certainly whether they work in public media or not, can relate to the idea of feeling like your voice, whether that is your literal voice or, you know, the more metaphorical voice, doesn't fit in with what success is supposed to look like. And I think a lot of people answer that by trying to make themselves match, trying really, really hard to force themselves into the box to change the way they sound, to change what they talk about. I think it's really interesting that you didn't. And I wonder if you could maybe as prescriptively as you want, give people who are dealing with that feeling or that situation some advice.

[Anita Rao]

Well, to be totally honest, I did try and I failed.

[Chris Duffy]

Tell me about that.

[Anita Rao]

I noticed that if I kind of like set my voice at a, in a higher range in my. Yeah, in my vocal range, I might. I wouldn't have vocal fry. And so I would try to read my intros with that higher voice.

[Chris Duffy]

Can you give us, like, this is you trying to conform, and then we'll hear what it is you regular. I'm so curious to hear it.

[Anita Rao]

Listening back, it's so cringy. Okay, so this is like my normal range, I would say what I tried was to do something like this, which was like, this is embodied. I'm Anita Rao. Today on the show, we're gonna talk about what it's like to be in your body and have conversations about sex, relationships, and health.

[Chris Duffy]

How does it feel when you talk like that?

[Anita Rao]

Oh, it's so awkward. Like, it's so put on. I feel like I sound younger. Like, I don't. It feels like not me. And I think that's what would happen was, like, I would do my intros like that. I would ask the first question usually like that. And then as soon as I was in a back and forth with someone, it just slipped back into how I sound. And I would listen back to these recordings I did, and I was like, oh, you can't do it. You can't, like, ask a question authentically and, like, vibe with someone while focusing so hard on, like, putting your voice in that range. And it just. It didn't work and it didn't feel good. Like, it felt physically uncomfortable. It felt like I was, like, trying so hard to focus on that that I couldn't really focus on being in the moment with someone. And I think, to me, like, the real joy of this work is when you can get into a flow with someone, when you feel like you're in sync when you're vibing. So I realized, like, I can't vibe with people if I'm forcing myself to talk in this, like, artificial register.

[Chris Duffy]

You cannot be a fake version of yourself. You can't conform to, like, who they want for very long before it's gonna fall apart.

[Anita Rao]

Yeah, it's gonna get like your self is gonna catch up with you either through, like, getting depressed because you don't feel like someone's seeing you authentically or by the other person, like, figuring you out and realizing that it's you're not who you are, saying that you are. And I think there was a lot of freedom there in feeling, like, giving myself permission to let go a little bit of what I thought I was supposed to be doing, what I thought I was supposed to sound like. I feel really lucky that the show that I was working on and the host of that show was like very pro experimentation and was like great, like keep doing it, keep trying it. People don't like change and so you just have to like keep going for a while and see what happens. I don't know, there's like a really big exhale that you can experience professionally and personally when you don't feel like you have to like silo parts of yourself from other parts of yourself and I think embodied, I mean part of like the name and like all of it is about just like, yeah, let's like stop trying to do that and let's see what happens when we stop trying to do that and when we get ourselves permission to integrate more or just like even when things are coming up against each other in ways that are uncomfortable, like that's also okay and like that's also a part of like what it means to be a human and let yourself like feel that dissonance as well.

[Chris Duffy]

We are going to be right back with Anita after this break. So take a moment to allow yourself to feel all the dissonance that you need.

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[Chris Duffy]

And we are back. Here's another clip from Anita's podcast Embodied, where she's talking about her relationship to sex and sexuality when she was growing up. And this comes from an episode where she interviewed her parents about why they never gave her the sex talk.

[Anita Rao]

You've heard of this idea of the sex talk, which is basically when parents tell their kids about sex. You all never had a sex talk with us? Why that's a great. I like Dad's thought on that one. Go for it dad. Sure.

[Chris Duffy]

I think it is very much a cultural thing. If I had to learn about sexual or porn when I was growing up, it was almost impossible. There was no books that I had access to, even the libraries.

[Anita Rao]

We would not get access to that.

[Chris Duffy]

None of my parents, none of my family. We would talk about everything else. But the few issues that are generally tabooed, at least in the culture that I was raised, is talking about sex and talking about Money. So we carried that same culture over to a large extent. So part of the reason why there aren't as many conversations about sex or bodies can be because there's these taboos. And so people feel a little awkward talking about them. But also sometimes the pushback is maybe more political or ideological. Can you talk about how you respond to those? How do you think about opening up space for these conversations and actually having them rather than letting these things go?

[Anita Rao]

One of the most interesting things that I have clocked when it comes to the feedback that we get about the show is so on the radio, there are these things called, like, promos. And it's 30 seconds where I'm teasing the show. And it airs like multiple times throughout the week in advance of the show. And the vast, vast majority of pushback and critique we get about the show are to the idea of the thing that we're talking about that someone hears in the promo. Cause I'll sometimes get these long emails on like a Thursday. And I'm like, it's funny. Cause the show actually hasn't even aired yet. The show is tomorrow. So, like, I know you didn't listen to the show. I know you just can't believe we're talking about sex toys on the radio. Like, that's. That is one of the ones that we got the most comments about. There is so much just bristling at the. The idea of things. And I think we have so little. We have so little shared language to talk about. So many of these parts of our experiences that are uncomfortable. And there are these, like, words and phrases that people just, I don't know, develop such strong negative relationships with, I think, because they bring up a lot of shame and discomfort. And so to me, I guess I see a lot of the feedback that we get as being a reflection of, like a discomfort that's come up in the listener for whatever reason. The feedback that I think is hardest for me to reconcile with is like, if this promo airs in the car when I'm taking my kid to kindergarten, like, I don't want to tell them at 7:30am about vibrators. If your kid hears that and asks that question, first of all, they're listening way more than I would expect them to be listening to npr.

[Chris Duffy]

Yeah.

[Anita Rao]

Two, like, okay, I would love if you would have language where you could respond in an age appropriate way. But if you really feel like you can't, like, what are the things that I need to be keeping in mind about these words that are triggering for people not because of what they represent necessarily, but just because of, like, our association with what they represent, maybe.

[Chris Duffy]

Oh, also, this is another great episode of Embodied, or a thing that has come up a few times on the show is you talked about like you just had your laugh. I'm, as a comedian, always a connoisseur of laughs. And I know you've talked about feeling some self consciousness about the way that you laugh.

[Anita Rao]

Yeah, yeah, I really do. That was an interesting reminder where I was like, oh, I thought this was something I was so totally comfortable with. And I love to laugh, so it's not gonna stop me from laughing, but it does still, that kind of thing where it's like you're expressing yourself in your most like, unbridled, uncontained way. And when people react to that negatively, like, that can cut deep. And so it's like a thing that I didn't know I was self conscious about until I really started doing radio and podcasting and then was like, oh, huh, okay, I have some feelings about that I need to work through.

[Chris Duffy]

You know, you can literally host a show about having, like, open conversations about your body and bodies and sex and relationships and still have plenty of places where you yourself are self conscious or feel shame.

[Anita Rao]

So true. No, so true. It's like, it's much easier to hold space for other people and to validate them than it is to do the same with yourself, and especially when you're in these roles of host. Like, I see myself as like, a container for other people at times where, like, I'm a container for you to share things, but, like, I would actually have to do the integration work after the fact to make that a part of who I am. And, like, do I put the time into doing that every day? Probably not.

[Chris Duffy]

We've been talking about, like, these conversations that, that you had on the show about sex and bodies and relationships and self. Obviously, most people listening are not hosting a podcast or a public radio show. But why should people be having more conversations about these topics? Why? Why should this be the kind of thing that you do talk about openly?

[Anita Rao]

We need to be having these conversations because we don't like the collective wisdom around these topics is so important and is the only way to actually move things forward. I think it's, like, so interesting when you. When I talk to neuroscientists especially, I realize, like, oh, we still don't understand so much about the brain when I talk to other kinds of doctors. Like, we actually still don't understand so much about the body. And so, like, we can't wait for, like, science and experts to tell us how we should understand ourselves. Like, we have to do that work ourselves. And I don't think we can do that work alone, especially around these things that make us feel shame and make us feel more alone. So I do feel like you need to have these conversations because you need the wisdom of other people to heal your own challenges and to make your own self better. And I think the intergenerational aspect, too, is so important. Like, I feel like that's one thing that I've really learned from talking to my parents and having them on the show is that, like, we need more intergenerational conversations about these topics, because we can't. Yeah, we're never gonna change if, like, we don't recognize the patterns that we've inherited without realizing them and the patterns that we're passing on to other people. And I feel like we need to start these conversations so we can actually. We can realize what we're actually trying to talk about beyond the, like, catchphrases and beyond the, like, I don't know, the words and the terminology that have put us in more isolation from each other because we feel like we don't agree when maybe underneath it, there's something that we could find a point of connection on.

[Chris Duffy]

Something that I've been thinking about in prepping for this interview is having conversations about sex in particular. For me, on the one hand, I want people to not feel shame, and I want people to feel like they can talk about whatever they want to talk about. And on the other hand, just for myself, if, like, sex and desire and all that is discussed so openly and so, you know, every day, does it take away a little bit of what makes it, like, special and powerful and unique? And I don't know the answer, but that's something that I wonder. Cause to me, part of what feels, like, special about it is that it is, like, it's not for everyone. Like, that my feelings and my desires and my sexual connection, it is really limited. And as a result, that makes it more special to me personally.

[Anita Rao]

That is so interesting. I think so much of what I'm trying to get at with talking about sex is like, finding ways to reduce the barriers you have inside yourself. So, yeah, like, to a degree, like, I agree with you that, like, I. Yeah. Sharing out in the world all of our very specific fantasies and all of the, like, like, details of our specific experiences of pleasure, like, maybe that will take away some of the joy of discovery that you could have in a more intimate setting. But I think for me, so much of the struggles that I see in other people and that I see in myself are like, there's so many roadblocks to even getting to that place where you know what your desires are. And, like, that is the work of talking more openly about this as being like, oh, yeah, like, I can't connect to my body and understand my pleasure when I'm so burnt out that I don't even, like, I can't even, like, feel pain or sensation in this part of my hand. Or like, that we're so disconnected from ourselves that building that awareness is, like, the first step toward accessing more pleasure and accessing more sexual connection. I think if we got to a place where. Where everyone, like, was so much more, like, in tune and aligned and actually embodied, maybe we would need to talk about sex less. But I feel like we're so far from that at this point that, I don't know, I imagine it would be a while before we would have that problem.

[Chris Duffy]

Oh, that's a great answer. I love that. And I think it really reframes it for me in a really interesting way. And just to say an example, that's kind of the opposite of what I was just saying. I can think of a really specific moment in my life where I was probably 16, maybe somewhere in my teen years, and I was over at one of my really close female friends houses, and she had, like, a box of tampons out. And I was like, oh, that's so disgusting. Oh, my God, disgusting. And she was like, why is that disgusting? And I was like, I didn't have any language. I was just like, it's just that's. You're not supposed to have gross. And, you know, obviously part of that was me being an immature teenager, but now I can look back and see, like, oh, there's this really, like, political cultural force that's like, whose body is gross and what parts of our body are gross. And now I look back and I'm like, wow, that was kind of a wild reaction that I had. And yet it felt so normal. What is gross about? That's totally not gross at all and extremely normal for so much of the population.

[Anita Rao]

And it's like, you don't even know. You haven't even been able to, like, articulate and understand those internal scripts until you're confronted with them. Like, I remember one of our very earliest episodes was about body hair, and we were talking about, like, why do we shave? Why do we spend, like, thousands of dollars a year on waxing? And this idea that like, we feel like hair, body hair on women and femmes is gross and grotesque. And I was like, episode I was noticing, I was like outside with my dog. I think my dog was like playing in the grass and I was sitting down and I literally like looked down at my legs and was like, ugh, stubble, gross. And I was like, oh my God, like, why am I grossed out by my own leg hair? Like, what is going on? And it's like, you can't even realize that that is a thing until you're like, forced to, like, you have to confront it and you have to like, realize what that internal narrative is. And there are so many moments like that for me in the process of working on these shows all the time that are like, forced me to confront those internal narratives.

[Chris Duffy]

I'm curious as a person who has interviewed a lot of people about these pretty intimate topics and topics that can be pretty taboo. And as we talked about, we don't yet live in this ideal world where people feel like they can just say anything. I imagine many of your guests are like, thank you so much for giving me the space to talk about these. Have you ever heard from a guest who shared a story on your show who then maybe felt like, oh, wow, I wonder if I was ready to talk about that.

[Anita Rao]

There is one moment that comes to mind, and it was a show that we did about growing up with a parent who was incarcerated. And we had like a 45 minute, I think, interview with this young woman. Like, I didn't get any signals during the conversation that there was discomfort or there were, there was tension that arose. And literally the next day she sent an email and was like, we can't air that conversation. I feel so uncomfortable. I'm not ready for this story to be shared. And it was like a week long process of as a team being like, oh, no, what do we do? Like, we thought it was a really beautiful conversation. And like, how do we. We wanna respect her wishes, but we also wanna know, like, what the core of the fear is. And like, is that core of the fear something that her mind could be changed on or is it that, like, no, this would feel actually like, really dangerous. And so we did like a lot of interrogating. We went back and forth with her and ultimately she was like, no, I don't want to change my mind. I'm not comfortable. We didn't air, so we didn't air the conversation. We had to like, pivot and do something else. Sometimes we do like re air episodes from a few years ago. And we always will check back in with people and be like, does this is. Are there any updates? Like, does this still feel resonant? And sometimes people are like, oh, man, I'm actually not going through that in the same way as I am, but it's okay. Like, I'm still okay with you all sharing it. And I think it's really important to do that work. But it's hard. It's like, it's hard to. To. To be in that role where you want to be. You are empathetic, and you don't want to ever share a story that someone feels uncomfortable with. But you also feel like, oh, but there is. I can see the value in being open about this. And like, other people realizing that there are so many people with this experience that may also feel as alone as you felt.

[Chris Duffy]

Thinking about these conversations, thinking about these types of ways of opening up in ourselves, to think about, talking about this, feeling more comfortable, avoiding shame. When it comes to body and relationship and sex and all of the different pieces that you cover and embodied, what are three things that people listening can do to start some of that work in themselves?

[Anita Rao]

I mean, I think the first thing is, like, approaching yourself with genuine curiosity and, like, giving yourself space and time to really name and get curious about the beliefs that you have about your physical body, your sexual self and sexual identity, your relationships. And, like, start there with just, like, no judgment, just curiosity. Like, what comes up for me around these things, because I think there's so much that we don't realize that we're holding on to until we, like, are able to approach it from a place of curiosity and not judgment. Second, I would say, like, if there is a conversation you feel moved to have with someone in your life, make sure you, like, actually set the table for that conversation. And what I mean is, like, be very intentional. Don't just, like, spring up on your partner over dinner that, like, you feel like your sex life is not how you want it to be. I think it's really. These topics are so vulnerable, and we can get really defensive around them. So I think it's really important to, like, give people time to prepare for these conversations and, like, set the table in a very intentional way. So they're like, they're slightly primed.

[Chris Duffy]

I just listened to this episode of Embodied, and I think you'd really like it. And then we should discuss it.

[Anita Rao]

Exactly, exactly. You can always share a resource as a starting point for a conversation. I'm so glad you shared that. A perfect.

[Chris Duffy]

It's Always possible. You can use a scapegoat, especially a scapegoat who's not even in the same state as you.

[Anita Rao]

Exactly, exactly. So that's number two. Set the table. Whether that be like, intention, sharing a resource.

[Chris Duffy]

What about in that conversation itself? Cause you obviously navigate these all the time with so much nuance. How do you, like, what are the actual moves or even emotional moves that can make the talking go better?

[Anita Rao]

Like force yourself to sit with discomfort in a very actionable, tangible way. Literally count on your fingers to 10 before you even think about interrupting or saying something like, hold, hold yourself accountable to creating, actually creating space. Whether that is pure silence or that's like affirmative listening, nodding, whatever it is. Like, I think that that is such an overlooked element of important conversation is like you have to actually stop and slow down and you have to realize that, like, your pacing is not always someone else's pacing. So, like, let them have a minute to catch up and adjust. I think that that, like, the creating of silence is probably like the best, easiest attainable thing to do.

[Chris Duffy]

Well, Anita, this was such a joy. Thank you so much for being on the show and thanks for talking to us.

[Anita Rao]

Thank you so much. What a pleasure. Thank you.

[Chris Duffy]

That is it for this episode of how to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to today's guest, Anita Rao. She hosts the podcast embodied from wunc. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and you can find more from me, including my weekly newsletter and information about my live shows and my speaking events and all sorts of [e-mail] how to be a Better Human is put together by a fully corporeal team. On the TED side, we've got Daniela Bellerezzo, Banban Chang, Chloe Shasha Brooks, Lainey Lott, Antonia Ley, and Joseph De Bruyne. This episode was explicitly fact checked by Julia Dickerson and Matthias Salas. On the PRX side, we've got fully embodied and enlightened audio geniuses, Morgan Flannery Norgill, Maggie Goreville, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzales. And of course, thanks to you for allowing this show into your ears and into your brain. You make everything possible. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you for listening to how to Be a Better Human. You can listen on Amazon Music or just ask Alexa play How to Be a Better Human on Amazon Music. Wherever you are listening, please share this episode with a friend, with a family member, with someone whose body you think would enjoy it. It is a really big way that we get out. To new listeners. This is the final episode of the Year. But have no fear, we will be back in 2025 with more episodes of how to Be a Better Human. Have a great, great, great End of the year and we will see you, hear you, talk to you, be downloaded by you next year. Pick your verb.

[Anita Rao]

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