How to Be a Better Human

Episode Title: What it means to truly pay attention (w/ Kevin Townley)
Date: January 19, 2026
Host: Chris Duffy
Guest: Kevin Townley (Writer, Meditation Teacher, Comedian, Author of "Look, Look, Look, Look, Look")

Overview

In this episode, host Chris Duffy explores the interplay between art, humor, spirituality, and the act of truly paying attention with guest Kevin Townley. The conversation draws from Kevin's eclectic background—comedian, meditation teacher, writer—and his recent book Look, Look, Look, Look, Look: Buddhist Wisdom Reflected in 26 Artists. Together, they discuss how cultivating careful attention, especially through art, can help us transform our relationship to suffering, access wisdom in difficult emotions, and even find humor and joy in uncertain or tumultuous times.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Parallel Paths of Art and Spiritual Discovery

[03:10–06:13] Kevin reads from his book

• Creatives and spiritual seekers both confront the “charnel ground” of their own psyche—territory that is scary but ultimately generative.
• The same inner energy can lead to either creation or self-destruction; facing one’s own mind is both terrifying and vital.
• Avoidance of creative discomfort often manifests as distraction.
• Quote:

  “We cannot bear the intimacy of our own brilliant minds, and so we look away.” —Kevin Townley [05:17]

2. On the Book: Five Buddha Families & Creativity

[09:44–12:35]

• The book is based on a 9th-century Buddhist system (“five Buddha families”): ignorance, anger, pride, craving, jealousy.
• Unlike in the West, Buddhism views these emotions as sources of wisdom, not just negativity.
• Artists “transform negativity into something else,” and this creative transformation is mirrored in spiritual practice.
• Art’s power: not about the artist’s personal transformation, but how work transcends individual emotion and invites new connections with the audience.

3. Making Art and Museums More Accessible

[12:35–15:44]

• Kevin reflects on running comedic yet factual museum tours, breaking down the sense that art is only for the elite.

• The fallibility and humanity of artists make art more relatable:

  "The people who made this stuff didn't know anything either… They had their heads up their cans… It creates an inroad for people to see art as a human inheritance." —Kevin Townley [13:12]

• Comedy and accessibility allow people to see themselves in art, dropping the intimidation factor.

4. The Value of Bad Art

[15:06–15:44]

• The Museum of Bad Art in Boston uses intentionally bad works to encourage people to have opinions and see themselves as qualified to judge art.
• Engaging with “bad” art side-by-side with “good” art opens doors for all to participate, echoing the Buddhist idea that our feelings have value and insight.

5. The Power of Attention

[15:44–21:00]

• Most people look at an artwork for just 17 seconds, barely scratching the surface.
• Truly seeing means letting go of labels, opinions, and narratives to experience the work directly:

  "If you spend more time looking at something, you might actually start to really, really, really look at it, and you start to see what’s actually there." —Kevin Townley [16:28] "An indication that that is occurring is you cease to know what you’re looking at, interestingly." —Kevin Townley [17:23]

• Prolonged looking can dissolve preconceptions—suddenly, what you see becomes unfamiliar and fresh.

6. Art, Humor, and the Non-Self

[21:00–25:18]

• Buddhist ideas: suffering, impermanence, and no-self.
• Our core emotions can be the wellspring for creativity and laughter when viewed with curiosity rather than self-seriousness.
• Humor does not trivialize suffering—it creates spaciousness, the ability to see things from a different vantage point, and lets us be less rigid.

  “A real sign of spiritual growth is a sense of humor… there’s a sense of spaciousness and possibility.” —Kevin Townley [23:55]

7. The Center of the Mandala: Moving from Selfhood to Connection

[25:18–28:21]

• Chris and Kevin discuss moving away from self-centeredness as the goal of art/comedy, emphasizing connection and vulnerability.
• The Buddhist mandala—a symbol with a center—reminds us everyone sees themselves as the center, but true engagement happens at the margins, in connection.

  "Art is a liberation from being a self. You can do anything." —Kevin Townley [28:17]

8. Practical Exercises for Deep Attention

[32:49–37:53]

• Kevin explains how to practice deeper looking, paralleling meditation.
  • Take time and find a bench in a museum, or anywhere with art—even TJ Maxx!
  • Rest your gaze on the center of an artwork and, without moving your eyes, call forward certain shapes or colors to your attention.
  • Alternate this with normal viewing, cultivating the ability to see what’s actually there, not just what’s in your mind.
• The goal: train “awareness” as a muscle. Through art or meditation, become less driven by opinions, more able to witness.

  "Awareness is really the queen of the whole project." —Kevin Townley [33:18]

9. Does Masterpiece Status Matter?

[40:38–44:35]

• Kevin believes great works ("masterpieces") often result from an artist’s commitment to confronting the unknown, which leaves an imprint on the work.
• But meaningful engagement is possible with any artwork, because it's about the encounter, not just the object.

10. Learning from Agnes Martin: Comfort with Not Knowing

[44:35–49:06]

• Kevin is inspired by minimalist painter Agnes Martin, whose approach to creative uncertainty is to wait patiently for inspiration.

  "If you don't know what to do, don't fill the space with a lot of flailing and splashing around... She would sit until the inspiration came… then extrapolate [it] out..." —Kevin Townley [46:14]

• Beauty is in the beholder’s mind, not the object—a lesson from Agnes Martin, who playfully revealed this to a child with a hidden flower.

11. Finding Humor in the Everyday

[49:06–50:06]

• Kevin laughs at his own self-importance and recognizes joy in the unexpected:

  "Whenever I'm like, why am I doing this sort of work? It just makes me laugh... You always wanted to be a retiree and now you're doing it." —Kevin Townley [49:20]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We cannot bear the intimacy of our own brilliant minds, and so we look away.” —Kevin Townley [05:17]
• “Artists are always transforming this energy of negativity into something else… What they've made kind of transcends both their personality and their emotion into some other new thing.” —Kevin Townley [11:39]
• “If you spend more time looking at something... you're stepping into the mind stream of the person who made this thing. You're mixing minds with another person. In the same way as when you read a novel, you're mixing minds.” —Kevin Townley [36:39]
• “Awareness is really the queen of the whole project.” —Kevin Townley [33:18]
• “Art is a liberation from being a self. You can do anything.” —Kevin Townley [28:17]
• “A real sign of spiritual growth is a sense of humor… there's a sense of spaciousness and possibility.” —Kevin Townley [23:55]
• “The beauty is not in the rose. It's in your own mind.” —Agnes Martin via Kevin Townley [48:55]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:10] — Kevin’s reading about tortured artists, creation, and self-destruction
• [09:44] — The Five Buddha Families and their artistic parallels
• [14:20] — Museum of Bad Art and the importance of opinion in art experience
• [15:44] — Why real engagement requires looking longer than 17 seconds
• [21:00] — Buddhism’s three marks of existence as related to emotional experiences and art
• [32:49] — Practical steps for engaging deeply with art (attention exercise)
• [40:38] — Is there a difference between a masterpiece and an amateur work?
• [44:51] — Lessons from Agnes Martin on patience, not knowing, and beauty
• [49:06] — Kevin on finding comfort and humor in his daily life

Conclusion: The Transformative Power of Looking

Chris and Kevin’s conversation repeatedly circles back to this: both humor and mindfulness require and reward slowing down, noticing with curiosity, and releasing rigid selfhood. Whether through meditation, art, or laughter, the capacity to pay close attention—to oneself, to the world, to the strangeness and mess of being alive—creates room for wisdom, connection, and even joy in the face of uncertainty. Ultimately, looking closely helps us become better, more open humans.

“It makes you less sure of yourself. In a good way.” —Chris Duffy [25:37]