← How to Be a Better Human
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- [00:00]
Wise Ad Speaker
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- [00:32]
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- [01:50]
Chris Duffy
This is how to be a Better Human I'm your host Chris Duffy, and I am currently sitting at a desk. Some days I realize that I have spent the entire day sitting at a desk. I've spent hours not moving anything other than my mouth and hands. I have a sense that that's probably not the healthiest. I mean, we've all heard how important it is to exercise and to get in your steps and yada yada yada. But what is if you don't have a schedule that allows you to go to the gym every day, or you have a job that requires you to sit in a cubicle for hours at a time, or you're just exhausted all the time, how do you actually make those changes then? Well, today's guest, Minouche Zamorodi, has not only spent a lot of time thinking about the answers to those questions and writing a whole book about it, which is called Body the Hidden Health Costs of the Digital Age and New Science to reclaim your well being. But Minouche has also helped to organize a research study which was Looking at this in a clinical and academic context, and what she and her co collaborators found is not only important for our health, it is also very practical. Minouche is not some scold who is just telling you to get up out of your chair and onto a treadmill. Instead, she's a person with practical, useful, dare I say it, even fun ways to be healthier, feel better, and end the day with more energy. So to get us started, here is a clip from Minouche's TED Talk about why we often end up sitting for such a long stretch. He even though we know we should be moving more.
- [03:15]
Manoush Zamorodi
Do you ever close your laptop at the end of a long day and feel like you have just enough energy to crawl over to the couch to scroll on your phone or watch a show, or maybe both at the same time? Yeah. During the pandemic, that was all I wanted to do. And I couldn't understand why I was safe, I was healthy. When. Why didn't I want to close my laptop and go dance around the living room? Where did all my energy go? I'm a journalist. My specialty for the last 10 years has been trying to understand how our tech habits change us as people. And so I decided I was going to find out why sitting in front of a screen makes us feel so exhausted. Because we have all heard about the mental effects, right? But what about our physical health? Well, as I quickly learned, looking at screens has not only reshaped our days, it is reshaping our bodies. According to researchers at Johns Hopkins, every day the average 19 year old moves about as much as the average 60 year old. Over the last 20 years, rates of type 2 diabetes in young people have doubled. Three in four American adults has a chronic illness. Many of those are preventable, at least one chronic illness. And the WHO says that this is a global problem. They predict that by the end of the decade, which is not that far away, this lifestyle will likely lead to 500 million new cases of preventable conditions like heart disease, obesity and diabetes, costing governments $27 billion a year. Typing, swiping, scrolling, sitting. This is the rhythm of our modern life. But I don't know about you, I can't throw away my phone, right? Like, I can't go off the grid. So how can we stay connected without slowly destroying our health?
- [05:19]
Chris Duffy
I'll be honest with you, I am not there yet. I still need reminders. I am still sitting right now. But I think, I hope, I suspect that by the end of this episode, I. I may be in a different spot. And you might be too. So don't go anywhere. We will be right back after these quick ads. This episode is brought to you by Shopify. Whether you're running a podcast, a side hustle, or a full business, at some point the logistics start to pile up. And the more it grows, the harder it gets to keep everything under control. That's exactly why millions of people turn to Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind businesses worldwide, from household names like Heinz and Mattel to brands just getting started. Tackle everything in one place, from inventory to payments to analytics and more. No juggling multiple platforms or hunting down the right tool. It's all there, making your life easier and your business runs smoother. And with Shopify's award winning 24. 7 customer support, you're never on your own. If you get stuck, start your business today with the industry's best business partner, Shopify, and start hearing. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com betterhuman go to shopify.com betterhuman that's shopify.com betterhuman this episode is sponsored by Wayfair. We all want our homes to feel a little bit more like us, but for the longest time my patio did not feel all that inviting no matter what season it was. So I finally added a nice outdoor rug and it is really transforming the space. It's amazing how much one detail can pull a space together. Now this is going to be one of my favorite spots this summer. I can just feel it. If you haven't tried Wayfair yet, my advice is start with one piece that makes the space feel more like you. Wayfair makes that easy. Outdoor seating, lighting, appliances, decor. It's all in one place with options for every style and aesthetic. And if you want a shortcut to the good stuff, shop Wayfair verified their product specialists hand vet everything so you know you are getting a quality piece. Patio season is here and these deals won't last, so head to Wayfair.com right now to get your outdoor space ready for way less that is wayfair.com wayfair
- [07:59]
Manoush Zamorodi
every style, every Home this episode is
- [08:02]
Chris Duffy
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- [09:09]
Manoush Zamorodi
Hi, I'm Anoosh Zamarodi. I'm host of NPR's Ted Radio Hour. I'm also the author of Body the Hidden Health Costs of the Digital Age and New Science to Reclaim your well Being.
- [09:21]
Chris Duffy
Okay, so Minouche, why is it called Body Electric? And what is the Body Electric experiment that you had some people do?
- [09:28]
Manoush Zamorodi
Well, okay, so Body Electric is a couple things. It's I sing the Body Electric Walt Whitman. It's a poem. It's also like a song from fame, which I found very inspiring. I'm switching from my reading glasses to my screen glasses now. Cause that's how I roll. And the reason I called it that is because I well, on multiple levels. One is electricity is what powers the body and the brain. It's like all those circuitry that keeps us going. It's why we're not like a pile of flesh and bones. But also I think a lot about the electricity that comes from our devices that should that powers our lives but often drains us. And how much I want to feel as though I've gotten a like zap and I can do anything I want to have be the Body Electric. So that was the title that we gave a study that I did a couple years ago. So I was feeling like crap, Chris. I couldn't understand like why at the end of a long day on all my devices, I was so fricking tired make any sense to me. I hadn't moved. So like, why was I so tired? So I really wanted to find the answer to that. And kind of at that moment I came across the research of a guy named Keith Diaz, who's a physiologist at Columbia University Medical Center. And so Keith's mission in life is to figure out the minimum amount of movement that the human body needs so that all our sedentary screen time doesn't send us to an early grave. And Keith had found the answer. He had found that five minutes of gentle movement every half hour did amazing things. It had outsized benefits, it slashed people's blood sugar, it lowered their blood pressure, it made them able to focus. It brought back their positivity. It was like this magic solution. So I called him and I was like, well, why aren't we all doing this? And he's like, well, do you think people actually can? Cause I don't think people can actually do this. And so I'm like going back to my lab and starting all over again. Cause I don't think people can even move this much. I was like, but come on, it can't be that hard. So I actually went to his lab and joined his study. And the results that I felt made me convinced that we had to at least try. So our teams at NPR and Columbia joined forces and we did a global clinical trial with over 20,000 people enrolled to try to get these moves, movement breaks into their lives to disrupt their sedentary screen filled days and see what happened. And we called it Body Electric. And Keith actually described it. He's like, it was like breaking out of the matrix. I was like, it kind of was like breaking out of the matrix. Like people felt like they could find their focus again. They, they had more energy at the end of the day, like to come home and play with their kids as opposed to feeling like, oh my God, all they wanted to do was lie down on the couch. They actually increased their productiv despite all of the interruptions, which was a big surprise. 80% of them who decided to commit to doing it were able to stick with it. And 82% actually really liked taking the movement breaks. And most importantly, I think we saw up to 28% less fatigue. So people were less tired. They felt electrified.
- [12:48]
Chris Duffy
You know, the, the like self help wellness nonfiction book space.
- [12:53]
Manoush Zamorodi
Oh yes.
- [12:54]
Chris Duffy
Has these ideas that are really counterintuitive, right? Like what you need to do is elevate one arm for 13 minutes just as the sun rises. And that will fix everything in your life. And you're like, wow, I never thought about that. But it's, it's appealing because it's really like, easy, right? Like I just do this one. I raise my elbow up right as the sun rises, and all of a sudden my problems are fixed. And your book is so the opposite, right? It's It's. Instead of it being something that is, like, unusual and confusing but really easy, it's something that is really simple but really hard to do. Yeah.
- [13:25]
Manoush Zamorodi
Yeah.
- [13:25]
Chris Duffy
How do we actually do the simple thing? Right. I always think about this as, like, a flossing problem, right? It's, like, obvious that you should floss, but few people actually floss as much as they should, me included.
- [13:33]
Manoush Zamorodi
First of all, my fantasy is that I could do one mega flossing session and then be done with it for the rest of my life. Wouldn't that be amazing?
- [13:41]
Chris Duffy
Oh, yeah. Or even for the year. Like, you just give me, like, a January 2nd, I floss for 12 hours,
- [13:45]
Manoush Zamorodi
and then I'm done. Exactly. And then, boom. Check it off my list. Okay, so that is actually very similar to, I think, how we have started treating movement and exercise in our lives, right? Like, we go to the gym three times a week, and we check it off our list. But unfortunately, the human body needs constant stimulation. So checking it off your list, if you work out in the morning, even if you, like, go to town at CrossFit, if you sit and work on a screen for the rest of the day, it doesn't matter. Okay, so maybe you're like, well, I have a standing desk. Unfortunately, that also doesn't matter. The human body needs constant simulation. Those leg muscles need stimulation in order to suck blood sugar and fats out of our bloodstream and to push oxygen up to our brain. And so this idea of, like, constantly interrupting yourself sounds, like, counterintuitive because from the moment we enter kindergarten, we are told to sit our butts in a chair. And that. That's what productivity looks like, right? That this is what working hard is. It's getting into flow. It's grinding through, push through. And now we even have, like, software surveillance technology to make sure that people never leave their documents and, like, that their keystrokes continue to move. Like, that is what we've decided, like, working hard is. But actually, it is detrimental to our ability to focus. And I think we have all sensed that, right? I mean, you can't go anywhere now without someone being like, oh, my God, we all have adhd. So we don't all have adhd, but we do have symptoms similar to adhd. And in part, what I learned was that when you focus, right? If you focus for a long time, you're doing a lot of cognitive switching and you're burning through glucose. Like, switch, switch, switch. You're using glucose, glucose, GL glucose, and you need oxygen to. To get the Fires going to burn the glucose. But if you run out of oxygen, CO2 starts to build up in your brain. If you keep going, you. When you push through against your cognitive limits and when you have CO2 buildup in your brain, that's when that foggy feeling comes in, the feeling like you can't focus, that you're mentally tired. So there is a whole biological system that needs movement breaks in order for it to run smoothly. Just like you need to reboot your computer once in a while, you gotta reboot your brain and your body. And somebody said to me the other day, they're like, oh, well, did you know that nobody talked about going into nature until the middle of the 1800s because nature was just like everywhere. So you would never say, I'm going into nature because that's where you lived, or like, you know, the fish. Like, oh, how's the water? Like, what's water? Yeah, yeah. So I think that's kind of like where we are with movement, that we have to talk about movement, not just like, you know, exercise, but just moving our bodies because we have created a world that is so built around screens and sitting.
- [16:45]
Chris Duffy
You know, one of the things that I was really struck by, a quote in your book on page 109, you say feeling stressed out and exhausted isn't in your head. Scientists, including the researcher Peter Strick, have shown clear biological links between how we position our bodies, move, think and feel. Hunched shoulders and a compressed torso can force shallow upper chest breathing. In addition to contributing to pain and soreness over time, that can increase stress levels and fatigue. It's not like you're saying, oh, the only thing that is stressing us out in our lives is the way we sit, the way we stand, the fact that we don't move, but that a lot of how we feel is actually being influenced by these kind of physical design choices of how we spend our day and where we spend our day. And that's, for me, at least something that I think of as, that's my water. Right? Like, well, yeah, I just sit in a chair. That's where the chair is, right? Like, what else would I do?
- [17:36]
Manoush Zamorodi
I don't know that we've necessarily factored that into our conversation about the mental health aspects of spending time. Like, too much time online is like bad for you, or social media is, you know, making our kids more depressed and anxious, but also our kids are moving less. Like, the average 19 year old moves about as much as the average 60 year old right now. But, like, that's not because they're lazy or because like, they're like, I don't want to, you know, move my body? No. Like, what do they do? They go to class and they're on a laptop and they come back and like, I'm talking about my own 19 year old, actually. I have one at home. Well, he's not home. He's at college. But, you know, he's on his laptop. Laptop in his room studying. He's checking his phone for things. They're watching, you know, Netflix. They're it like life revolves around screens. It takes intention and sometimes like a little rebellion to get movement into your life. Especially if you're a kid who's not like athletic or sporty. I was not particularly those things. Yeah. Okay. Theater kids.
- [18:37]
Chris Duffy
Yeah. Well, how do you think you end up behind a microphone right now talking?
- [18:40]
Wise Ad Speaker
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- [18:40]
Chris Duffy
That's why we're here.
- [18:41]
Manoush Zamorodi
Totally, totally. But I think to me this is like, what a relief. Like, I'm not talking about like that you have to join a gym or like, you know, if you didn't make it to the travel team as a teenager, like, that's fine. Like, just move your body and you can get some of the benefits. I want to stop thinking about it as like all or nothing. Like you either Boot Camp, CrossFit or Yoga Guru or you're a sloth. No, there has to be this in
- [19:09]
Chris Duffy
between wherever it is that you sit on the boot camp to sloth spectrum. We are going to have a lot more practical tips for you in just a moment. But first, a quick ad break. This episode is sponsored by Kohler Smart Toilets. The objects we interact with most are often the ones we notice least. Kohler Smart Toilet challenges that assumption. What if the most overlooked space in your home could become the most considered? Their Vail Smart Toilet is a sculptural silhouette that isn't just intentional. It's a philosophy that design changes everything. The Kohler Vail Smart Toilet is sleek with a rounded shape that's more like architecture than just plumbing. And it goes beyond looks. The touchscreen controls and customizable cleansing features offer a level of comfort and cleanliness that exceed expectations. It's all about elevating those ordinary daily rituals into something extraordinary through thoughtful design. Kohler has been pushing these boundaries for over 150 years, mastering that balance of stunning form and high performance function that's a long time to get it right. And it shows in every detail. Experience the difference of Kohler Smart Toilets. Find out more@kohler.com
- [20:43]
Wise Ad Speaker
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- [21:11]
Chris Duffy
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- [22:30]
Manoush Zamorodi
I think that we, and I hear this from a lot of people have taken on board this idea that this generation is screwed. They have been damaged irreparably by their screen use and that social media has destroyed their resilience and ability to cope. And I'm just sort of tired of that because I gotten to know a lot of young people and they are tired, pretty cool and they're doing amazing things and oh wait, like the world is on fire. So they do have a lot of reasons to be stressed and also a lot of adults around them are stressed. Candace Odgers, who's a teens and screens researcher who I brought to TED to give a TED talk. You know she pointed out to me the number one thing that affects a teenager's mental health and well being is how well their parents are doing, the grownups in their lives are doing. Her whole thing is like let's not just look at the phones and say, oh, my gosh, this is the problem for kids. Let's look at the kids and figure out what is it that they need. Now, I don't want to minimize mental health issues that a lot of teenagers certainly have, and we're more aware of those things than ever and what treatment there is and what can be done from them for them. But as she pointed out, the kids that are struggling are the ones who are most likely to go online and struggle with social media. Like, the problems don't necessarily start because they're online. It's often because they've. They've been struggling with those things to begin with. So my framing is, let's stop saying, like, get off your phone. That's enough screen time, and start to just be more positive and talk about the things that they're doing. Instead, let's like, instead of the negative, let's talk about, like, what the other options are. Like, have you. Did you go for a walk today? Have you gotten enough stroll time in? Because these movement breaks that we're talking about, to Clarify, they are five minutes walking at 2 miles per hour. That was found in the lab that had the biggest benefit if you did that regularly. I think what we see is also this conversation needs to bring in something called interoception. So I had never heard of this before, but interoception is the body's way of sensing and then telling you what it needs. Right? So that could be, like, things you don't even hear. Like, breathe again, breathe again, breathe again. Like, yeah, okay, don't need to hear that one. But like, ooh, it's getting hot in here. Take off your sweater. Or, Right.
- [25:05]
Chris Duffy
Kind of the Nelly of interoception.
- [25:06]
Manoush Zamorodi
Yes, the Nelly, exactly. Or, you know, I need a snack or whatever else. Right. So actually, I was talking to a friend whose son has autism, and he needs help with his interoceptive abilities. He doesn't even hear when he needs to go to the bathroom, or he will totally forget to eat if he doesn't. So kids with autism, that is often brought up that their interoception is off, but there is some new thinking that perhaps spending time in front of screens also messes with our interoception. There was a study done at the University of Bern in Switzerland in 2023 where they tried to figure out, like, how. How screens mess with our interoception. This is, you know, relatively new research, but they found that obviously, if you moved for 10 minutes, your interoception turned back on as to if you were staring at a screen for half an hour. Because what happens when we stare at a screen? We get so sucked into it that we. I'll speak for myself. Forget to go to the bathroom, find out that your left foot has fallen asleep because you've been sitting in the same position. And, oh, also, you haven't been blinking properly. So your eyes are filling you, right? And your shoulders are like this. So this interoceptive ability to think, like, not like, oh, my God, I've been on my screen for so long, I'm a terrible person. But like, oh, hang on. Have I given my body what it needs? Yikes. It's been an hour. I need to shake it off. Walk up, take some deep breaths, get some water, you know, look outside, right? Instead of feeling like bad people because we've been on our screens, let's just ask ourselves, have we been giving ourselves what we need biologically? How do we feel inside? Did screen time make us feel worse? Or actually, are we perfectly fine? And it's not that big a deal instead of this guilt that we are laying on kids.
- [26:56]
Chris Duffy
But I think that so much of your book is about, like, the positive interruption. The idea of. We think of interruptions and interrupting our work and our flow as only bad things. And so much of your book is about positively interrupting yourself. So, like, stopping yourself from going 12 hours with your shoulders tight and hunched and up by your ears.
- [27:14]
Manoush Zamorodi
That's really good, actually. I really like that. The positive interruption.
- [27:18]
Chris Duffy
Yeah, I do think it would sell far fewer copies. But I would like to just, like, posit that as one of the overall messages is that if we can use these interruptions, if we can actually harness them and build them in, that's how we actually do this. That's how we get to that five minutes every 30 minutes.
- [27:34]
Manoush Zamorodi
And I think some of the instructions that I include in order to highlight that without it being on the COVID is like making a plan, right? Deciding that you are going to be open to interruptions throughout your day. Instead of being, like, totally irritated when somebody calls you out of the blue, you could be like, great, can we turn off cameras so I can put my earbuds in and I can walk while I talk to you? Like that simple. Or like, somebody comes by your desk if you work in an office and you're like, great. Can we just walk and talk? Like, just turning them into movement opportunities? What I find so fascinating is the. It sounds so minimal, and yet the benefits are so profound. I mean, we have people who are saying that just Those interruptions, which we've been told are annoying and break flow. And look, sometimes they do. If you are in, like, in it, like, don't inter. Like, go for it, you know, God bless. Everybody loves a good flow. But I think sometimes we think we're killing it at work and actually we're spinning our wheels. Like, how many times have you come back to, like, a page and you're like, wow, I wrote a lot of these BS on that page.
- [28:49]
Chris Duffy
I would say 100% of the time.
- [28:51]
Manoush Zamorodi
Yeah, yeah. Whereas if we take a break and actually think about, oh, you know what, the answer to that problem, I could actually start this a completely different way. Right. Like, you just give yourself a minute to process, like, the other thing. People are like, whoa, taking a break after a meeting. That's so profound. I'm like, really? Is it? They're like, well, yeah, because I thought about what we talked about. I made a plan as to how I'm actually going to implement it. And I know how to follow up because I think a lot of people are going to meetings and they're having the exact same meeting that they had last week. Because everybody's rushing from meeting to meeting. Nobody's actually moving the goalposts forward.
- [29:33]
Chris Duffy
One that I. I was thinking that is interesting to me because it's something where I'm not very good at doing these. But I was thinking, I, like, if I finish sending an email that I've been. That's my big email that I need to send sometimes I will reward myself as, like, a little treat, and I will go on TikTok or Instagram. I'm like, oh, my little cheat is I get to watch a fun video. This made me think it would probably not, like, I want to take that away entirely, because even though I know it's not to help yourself, but, like, maybe sometimes my little treat after I finish an email or do a task before I switch into the next one is like, I should get up and, like, jump, right? Like, literally just get up, jump, or jump, get up and walk to the kitchen and walk back or whatever. Just like, do some sort of. I'm out of my chair as the treat, rather than I'm in the chair looking at a different, smaller screen in the study.
- [30:17]
Manoush Zamorodi
We purposefully did not tell people, like, get off your screens. Cause we wanted to see how they. What they decided to do, Right? And it was really interesting because for some people, it was like, oh, permission to get off my screen? Yes, please. So that was totally delightful to them. Other people were like, I liked that I could, you know, I have to be on all these calls, but you gave me permission to say like either a, my head's gonna be bobbing up and down in this zoom call, deal with it. Or to say like we turn our screens off and people would do it and walk. So I'm a fan of the zoom and shuffle, which is literally we can do it right now where you just stand up and you literally go back side to side. I've been known to do that. I think bosses, it's on you to set the cultural norms. You can, if you are just listening, feel free to turn off your cameras and move if you want to. Or like we can all be moving and that's if it's distracting. Just, you know, you don't have to look at everybody. A lot of bosses also set other rules. Like if we're in a meeting together, you can move whenever you want. But if we're with clients, actually I'd rather, you know.
- [31:29]
Chris Duffy
Yeah, yeah, yeah, don't shuffle with the clients.
- [31:31]
Manoush Zamorodi
Exactly. Other bosses like said like, I'm trying this experiment, please give it a, you know, if you wanna join me, you can. And of course found that people were like, hell yeah, I'll do walking meetings with you instead of sitting. I mean we did find that people at first at least set timers for themselves. Like so in our study, you could choose to move for five minutes every half hour, every hour, or every two hours. And hands down, setting a timer was the way people started. But what was really interesting was that by the end of the study, two weeks, many people found that they did not need to use timers anymore. They're interoceptive ability just kind of came back online and their body started to be like, hello, I need you to get up, please get up now. So they started to notice when they felt uncomfortable, when their shoulders were tight, when their back didn't feel quite right.
- [32:24]
Chris Duffy
That also feels so much more doable to me. Right. To think like, I'm gonna do this for two weeks and at the end of two weeks I won't need to like have a timer going off forever for the rest of my life.
- [32:33]
Manoush Zamorodi
Totally. And I actually believe that because it has turned me into a squirmy 8 year old boy. I like at Ted, I could not sit through the sessions. Like I had to get up and move. And I would notice mine is 45 minutes. That's my sweet spot. 45 minutes and I have like, something happens, I start squirming. I'm like the little Kid who needs to go around, run around in the playground, and then I'm fine. Which makes sense because actually we know that movement helps kids with learning because you're oxygenating the brain. It is preparing for you to learn to process information, to take it in and then actually remember. So, you know, sitting at a conference, listening to people explain their life's mission to you, like back to back to back to back, that's a lot of information. So no wonder we need to actually get some movement, some oxygenation, like it makes total sense. Other things people did. You can change the settings on Google calendars, for example, so that half hour meetings are actually 25 minute meetings or 55 minute meetings instead of an hour. And really use that five minutes to just, just walk around, get some water till you come to the next time. So like teeny little hacks.
- [33:47]
Chris Duffy
A question that I had and that I think a lot of people have is the question of like accessibility, right? Like for different jobs. But also if you're, if you have an injury or you are limited in
- [33:59]
Manoush Zamorodi
your mobility or walking is not an option.
- [34:00]
Chris Duffy
Yeah, walking isn't an option. Or you know, even walking for five minutes every 30 minutes is actually like, that's going to be quite a challenge. Not because just of the structural parts of your life, but because of your physical health or your situation. So when, when that comes up, how do you, how do you respond to that?
- [34:15]
Manoush Zamorodi
Okay, so if walking is not an option, using your arms is absolutely. Has been shown in studies to have a similar effect. So just making sure that you're stimulating the muscles, getting your circulation going. Like the gold standard is five minutes per every half hour during long periods of sitting. If I had serious health issues, I think I would want to go for the gold, sort of as it were. But if you haven't been moving at all, start with one minute every two hours. The good news is that every single movement break counts 16 breaks a day. That's a lot. People didn't make it to that. They made it to 4 to 5 breaks on average and they saw that better positivity, mood, fatigue, ability to concentrate. Did they necessarily get the full benefits of glucose reduction or blood pressure? No, but it's gonna help towards it. Right. I think the key thing here is like, we're not going for perfection or ultra optimization. We're going for the rest of your life. And that means showing yourself some grace, doing what you can on days that are crazy and packed and accepting that like, even if that day sucked, whatever, start again tomorrow. It's Fine.
- [35:36]
Chris Duffy
When I think about interoception, which I think is such a cool concept that we can all relate to, and the idea of building your own interoception and practicing that of like listening to what you actually need and when do you need it? One idea that comes to mind for me is that often around like 8, 8:30pm yes. Especially if I had a really like big day and I have young kids, so I wake up really early sometimes I will find like, wow, I am so tired. I'll have this like awareness in my body, body. I'm so tired. I could go to sleep right now, but then I think it's 8:30, I should do something else, right? And then I like look at my phone or I eat some sort of snack or I watch a show.
- [36:17]
Manoush Zamorodi
You had a hard day.
- [36:19]
Chris Duffy
Totally. And so I find a way to distract myself from the interoception. I say like, rather than acknowledge that my body is saying, hey, we could use some sleep right now, I do something else. And then weirdly, right, it gets to like 10:30 and I go, oh no, I am not going to be able to get enough sleep. And I'm also not that tired all of a sudden. So now I have trouble going to sleep. So the thing that I'm realizing in myself is that like ignoring the interoception versus listening to it is part of the issue of like how we actually get in tune with our own bodies. It's actually to just pay attention to the, the message that is already coming through.
- [36:57]
Manoush Zamorodi
One of the stories I tell in the book is when I got this neuroscientist, God bless her, to put me in an FMRI to try and see what was happening in my brain with information overload. This was a study of one, but other studies have found something similar, which is that. So she scanned my brain first thing in the morning before I had scrolled on my phone and answered emails and whatever, Instagram, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All the craziness that happens in a day. And I played this game. I didn't really know what she was measuring, but what she was measuring was my ability to process information, to make good decisions. And then I had my day of being on my phone and nuts, nuts, nuts, all the rest of it as it usually is, switching, switching, switching. And then she, I played the same game back in the fmri and what she saw kind of explains what you are saying is like, oh, my weak personality. It's really not. It's actually your brain. So. So during the day, like the first thing, when you're bright and fresh and you've got all this oxygen and glucose in the morning, you are using the part of your brain that's good at decision making. It stops, it thinks, it rationalizes. Okay? Whereas after you've done all that switching all day long, you switch over and start using the area of your brain called the striatum. And the striatum is the habit part of your brain. So it's the one that's like, oh, I'll just scroll right now, because that's relaxing. But, you know, it's not all bad that we switch over. Like, you ever do that where you drive home and you're like, wait a minute, how the hell did I just get here? That's your striatum, right? Like, it knows it can do things for you. So it's not always bad that we switch over to the habit thing, but we need to be aware that part of the problem of exhausting our brain and our body by the end of the day is that we will default to the easiest thing to do. That sort of feels good, right? It's just gonna happen.
- [38:48]
Chris Duffy
One of the big messages that I took away for myself from Body Electric was that I might think, like, I have these habits that let me, you know, stay up too late and not move enough. But I'll make up for it by, you know, three times a week like you said. Or even, let's be honest, not three times a week. One time a week, I'll go and do, like, three hours of exercise. I'll go do some big, big swimming or I'll go for a hike or something. Exactly. I'll be like, this is my time. And then I'll go. That made up for it. Or especially with sleep, I'll think like, okay, my kid is going to wake up at 5, and I'm going to have to be out till 11. And that is not going to leave me enough sleep. But I will get a nap on the weekend. And you talk really compellingly about the research that shows that it's definitely not clear that we can make up for lost sleep. And it's certainly not, not obvious that getting a little extra sleep on the weekend makes up for cutting yourself short all through the week. So that habit versus the, like, cheating myself is not actually. That's a much more destructive habit than I had thought of.
- [39:51]
Manoush Zamorodi
Well, first of all, having little kids is really, really hard, Chris. So I totally get that feeling. You're like, I didn't have any time to myself today. I'm not gonna go to sleep. I'm gonna look at Pinterest, you know what I mean? Or whatever. Like, I totally get that. And I think part of it is moderation is not terribly sexy. We don't know how to be moderate in this world. I feel like we're all like grinding it out for 16 hours with my eight AI agents running five companies, you know, or the opposite, which is brain rotting or bed rotting, I think is what my daughter calls it. Right. 15, 16 year olds bedrotting. I'm just gonna rot in bed, like doing absolutely nothing to the point that your body is disintegrating. Like, okay, can we just get back in the middle here, folks? Like, a little bit? Like, we are animals and our animals have evolved to need very basic things no matter what we do to them. And when it comes to sleep, unfortunately you cannot like bank sleep. You can't like run a deficit for the week and then like make up for it on the weekend. I think we have to come back to just checking in with ourselves, to moderation, to also finding the joy that comes with that. Like, I, maybe I'm not sweating buckets and having a dopamine high, but I feel pretty good on a daily basis when I keep up this like, habit and that's. I'll take it.
- [41:18]
Chris Duffy
You know, from the outside I'm like, what you're doing is working. It seems clear that it's working. You're a professionally and personally accomplished.
- [41:24]
Manoush Zamorodi
I actually had to build an entire career on figuring that out.
- [41:28]
Chris Duffy
Yeah.
- [41:28]
Manoush Zamorodi
But I will say, like, you know, I wrote a book, book nearly 10 years ago now about the importance of boredom. And this is because I am a person who used to run towards extremes. Like Type A. Let's go. Right. And I would, I burned out like 20 years ago. Like, I just couldn't keep it up. And as you get older, it get, it gets harder. And also the lows are pretty low. And so this has been like, for me, I need to understand the why behind it. So understanding the science, the biology, and then experimenting with it, not blindly being like, well, some guru says I have to do this, but no, like getting communities of people to try out different habits and seeing like the benefits of it and the effects. Like, it's a daily struggle. I do love to push through because it feels so good, but I also know what it feels like to be on the other side when you're paying the price and you're so tired. And as I get older, I just, I can't do it anymore. So like I mean, with this whole book rollout, I don't know how you did it, but I'm thinking like, I'm like, rest is a strategy. Pace yourself. You get to talk to people about your book.
- [42:38]
Chris Duffy
But the other thing it made me think about for my own life is when I was teaching in the classroom, I had a really structured day. And so I had very little control over, for example, like when I went to the bathroom. Cause it was like, this is this period, then there's a transition, then you're on lunch duty, then you're on snack duty, then there's another thing. And so it's like you can go to the bathroom in these very structured times, but you're on your feet, you are engaging with students, you are teaching, you're doing these things. And then I switched to comedy and to being a writer. And it's like incredibly unstructured and incredibly flexible. And you might think that that would be easier to like get things done or to be more physically active. And I found that it was actually the opposite. Right? Like it was having all the freedom in the world made it really hard to actually do anything in my day. And it made it really hard to actually move or exercise or any of that.
- [43:29]
Manoush Zamorodi
Yeah, I can totally see that. And I see that in how as an adult I've created my own life that is pretty structured actually. Just. Cause it cuts out the decision making, right? Like not having to decide, like it's 2 o', clock, where am I supposed to be? Like, I am a person who very much likes to sit down on Sunday and figure out what the week looks like. Cause I just think it lets you relax and be more present. If you're not like, wait, am I supposed to be somewhere? Should I be doing something? Wait, did I forget something? Like. Cause that's how I was before and I can't stand it. So for me, being my type, a person planning it out. So I've just tried to sort of construct a life that includes movement and moments. And I feel very lucky to have been able to do that. And I know not everybody can do that, that. But it is something to strive for. Yeah, works for me.
- [44:21]
Chris Duffy
I want to just read one paragraph from the conclusion of your book because I think we've talked a lot about the practical and the day to day. And I think that is really important. That's a big part of movement. But you also have changed the way that I think about it in kind of a broader sense, a bigger philosophical sense. And so I just want to read this Because I thought this was really beautifully put. Beyond the science and statistics lies a subtler, more personal cost. The slow disconnection from our physical selves. When we stop noticing how our bodies feel, we lose access to small daily joys, feeling strong, steady, present. And we model that disconnection for the next generation. Our sense of self, not just our health, is at stake.
- [45:02]
Manoush Zamorodi
Yeah. So like I said, 10 years ago, I wrote a book called Bored and Brilliant. And it was about the sense I had that my devices had taken all the cracks in my day and filled them. Like times when I used to be staring at people's shoes on the subway or just, like, looking at the clouds while I was waiting to get my coffee. I now could check the headlines. I could text someone, I could answer an email. And I really missed those cracks in the day. And I wanted to understand what was happening in those cracks in the day. And I learned more about what happens when we get bored and we allow our minds to wander. And one of the things we do when we allow our minds to wander is something. Something called autobiographical planning. So this is literally picturing what you want your life to be, looking back at what you've experienced, telling yourself a narrative of who you are, and then figuring out who you want to become and thinking through the steps to get there. And what I also realized was I did my best mind wandering. I got really bored during long walks where I didn't listen to anything, despite being a podcaster. As I went forward and researched more recently the effect of screens and sitting still on our physical health, the more I realized how much scientists are really feeling like. It's not the mind and the body. We are one whole thing. And there's a reason why movement can make us feel things. You mentioned Peter Strick earlier. He's a researcher at University of Pittsburgh, and he wanted to understand why yoga makes people feel so calm. And it turns out there are pathways, like, from our adrenal glands and our abdominal muscles up to the brain that are going back and forth and back and forth. There is so much we don't know. So I really started to feel like my sense of self is not just dependent on, like, ideas I have or self image or who I present to the world, but it's quite literally how I feel in my body. That sense of calm or excitement or anxiousness or franticness, like, that affects how I present myself to the world. Those things are one and of the same. And when I have screens in my life, I get a lot of great things out of them. But I also sometimes can overdo it. And so finding that moment where I get the most out of it, that I can connect with people, that I get good information, that it gives me an opportunity to, you know, do my work, do it well and express myself like that's great. And I want to feel that more than ever. But that also means setting boundaries and setting limits because, let's face it, the tech companies aren't going to do it for us. And I think it's something we have to teach ourselves and our kids and model for the people we live with and work with. And, you know, it's a rough world out there these days, Chris. So if each of us just feels a little bit better in ourselves, it can only be good for everyone else around us.
- [48:15]
Chris Duffy
I couldn't agree more. Well, Minouche, it's been such a pleasure talking to you. I would love to keep talking, but I have to get up and take a five minute walk.
- [48:22]
Manoush Zamorodi
So it is kind of time, isn't it? We've done our job here.
- [48:25]
Chris Duffy
Thank you so much. The Body Electricity is such a fantastic book and you are such a fantastic person. Thank you for being on the show, Chris.
- [48:32]
Manoush Zamorodi
Thank you for having me. It was a delight to be invited.
- [48:37]
Chris Duffy
That is it for today's episode of how to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to our guest, Manoush Zamorodi. You can, should and must get her new book Body Electric and listen to her hosting NPR's Ted Radio Hour. She's a fantastic host and a fantastic writer. I am your host, Chris Duffy and my new book, book Humor how laughing More can make you present Creative, connected and Happy is out now too. You can find out more about my live show dates and other projects@chrisduffycomedy.com how to be a Better Human is put together by a constantly in motion team of extremely electric individuals. On the TED side currently hiking through mountains while also meeting on Zoom, we've got Daniela Balarazzo, Banban Chang, Michelle Quint, Chloe Shasha Brooks, Valentina Bohanini, Lainey Lot, Tansika Seungman Evong, Antonio Le and and Joseph De Bruyne. Ryan Lash put this video together and then leapt straight up into the air. And Mattea Salas, who checks our facts, wants you to know that what I said about Ryan is not entirely accurate. On the PRX side, they are feeling healthy, energized and ready for their regularly scheduled movement break. Morgan Flannery, Nora Gill, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzalez. Thanks to you for listening. Now go wiggle and waggle and move your body. Please send this episode to someone who you think think would enjoy it or who you would like to move with. We will be back next week with even more how to be a Better Human. Until then, take care. This is the Chase Sapphire Lounge of Boston. Logan, you got clam chowder in New York, dirty martini over 1300 airport lounges and one card that gets you in Chase Sapphire Resort now even more rewarding. Learn more@chase.com Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JP Morgan, Chase bank and a member FDIC subject to credit approval hey Yetis, this is Nick and Jack from the Best One yet podcast. Now the last company we worked at, they used Paylocity and everything just worked. It wasn't until launching our own media business this show that we realized how rare that is. Because Paylocity is one delicious burrito of operational needs. They roll up HR finance and it seamlessly into one delicious bite. When everything wraps together like that all at once, your workforce, your tech stack, your business. You don't need more tool. You don't even need cilantro. You need one solution. And that is why Paylocity built a single platform to connect HR finance and IT with AI driven insights and automated workflows that simplify the complex and power what's next? Or as we call it, a delicious operational burrito. Yes we do experience a one place for all your HCM needs besties. So start now at paylocity.com1 paylocity.com one
- [51:07]
Manoush Zamorodi
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