← How to Be a Better Human
How to Be a Better Human
Why you should take a risk every day with Julie Zhuo | from WorkLife with Molly Graham
00:37:10
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- [00:01]
Podcast Host / Sponsor Announcer
This episode is sponsored by Toyota. There's something powerful about momentum. That feeling when things are moving forward, when you're not stuck, you're not waiting, you're just going. That's true in life and it's true in how we move through the world. Toyota's new all electric vehicles are built to support that kind of momentum, whether it's the quick acceleration of the C hr, the versatility of the BZ, or the capability of the bz. Woodland performance figures are for comparison only and were obtained with prototype vehicles by professional drivers and with access to a growing network of chargers, including Tesla Superchargers. It's designed to keep you moving, not slowing you down, because capability isn't just about power, it's about removing friction. Learn more at toyota.com, the new all electric family Toyota let's go Places.
- [00:51]
Sponsor Announcer
This episode is brought to you by Bill, the intelligent finance platform that helps businesses and accounting firms scale with proven results with AI powered automation. Bill removes the busywork from your accounts payable workflow. They handle capturing invoices, routing approvals, and syncing with your accounting software so that your team can focus on growth instead of paperwork. Bill is so reliable. According to Bill, 98 of the top 100 accounting firms in the US trust it to simplify and secure their bill payment processes. Bill's handled over a trillion dollars in secure payments and is ranked number one overall on G2's 2025 list of best accounting and finance products. So stop the guesswork and start scaling with the proven choice. Go with a company whose financial infrastructure is trusted by nearly half a million customers. Ready to talk with an expert? Visit bill.comproven and get a $150 gift card as a thank you. That's bill.comproven terms and conditions apply. See Offer page for details.
- [02:10]
Podcast Host / Sponsor Announcer
Hey everyone, Chris Duffy here. Today we are sharing an episode of a podcast that we think you are going to love. This has been handpicked by the TED staff and we think that as a how to be a better human listener, you are going to come away with a fresh idea and a totally new perspective. So enjoy this episode and head to the link in the description afterwards to hear even more.
- [02:33]
Molly Graham
Most of us think about risk taking at work the wrong way. We imagine it as this big dramatic thing. Quit your job, start a company, say the thing that could get you fired. And yes, I will admit that I have probably helped cement that version of risk in my own TED Talk. Sorry, but that way of thinking about risk has a side effect. It becomes all or nothing. You're either a risk taker or you're not. If we think about risk taking that way, a lot gets left out. The question you didn't ask in the meeting because you were worried it would make you look stupid, the feedback you've been sitting on for two weeks, the boundary you've been meaning to set. We don't call those risks. We just call them things we didn't do. And here's what I've come to believe. The people who are actually good at taking risks didn't get there by making one giant leap or even by taking big risks over and over again. They built a practice small, uncomfortable swings over and over. Not until it stopped feeling scary, but until the fear stopped getting in the way. I know that's been true for me. So today I want to explore how do you actually get better at taking risks? And is it something that anyone can do? I'm Molly Graham and this is Work Life, a show where we untangle the messy human side of work. Today I'm talking to someone who has thought more carefully about the daily practice of risk than almost anyone I know. Julie Zhu was one of the earliest design and product leaders at Facebook, where she helped build and manage teams through some of the most explosive growth in tech history. She later wrote the Making of a Manager, which has become a field guide for first time leaders and is now the co founder of Sundial, a company using AI to help organizations make better decisions. Julie is a craftsman, and not just in design. When she wants to understand something, she dives in deep and builds a whole practice around it. For example, she did that with writing one blog post a week for a year and then landed a book deal. One of the things she has applied that craft to is risk because she decided it was something she wanted to get better at. So I want to talk to her about what she did, what she learned, and what she really thinks it takes to be brave. Julie, welcome to Work Life.
- [05:06]
Julie Zhuo
Hi Molly. Thank you for having me here.
- [05:09]
Molly Graham
I'm so happy you're here.
- [05:11]
Julie Zhuo
Oh gosh, I'm so excited to be here.
- [05:13]
Molly Graham
You've written about this idea of everyday risk and pushing yourself to take small risks regularly. I'm curious, like what gave you that idea and why did you think it was important?
- [05:29]
Julie Zhuo
I started to have this idea because I think one of the things that I'm worried about for myself and in fact I think I recognize about myself, is that I am just like a real scaredy cat when it comes to life. There's a lot of things that really scare me. And when they scare me, I sometimes have this inclination of, like, okay, well, maybe that's not for me. I can't do it. Somebody else is much better than that. And it gotten to the point where I started to see that as a pattern. But when I was little, I somehow got into my head that I was really not athletic. Like, in fact, I was just terrible at all things physical sports. I think maybe it was exacerbated by the fact that I had asthma. So my mom was always, like, very protective around me and, you know, going out and playing sports. And then my mom would have all these stories, and she's like, well, I'm not really very athletic myself. In fact, I hate running. I hate sports. I hate this. And so maybe you inherited those genes in addition to the asthma. So I just had this whole narrative that, like, these things were hard. And I think that, you know, I. I probably had this strong identity of, like, okay, if I'm not good at sports, maybe I'm good at things that use my brain. But in reality, what it was, I think, is that I was just kind of scared to try. I was scared to maybe validate the story that I'm bad at these things. And I think that that was a pattern that I had seen through many other things, right? And then at a certain point in life, when I look back, and I guess it was through the years I'd spent at Facebook and just being pushed to scale and try a lot of new things, I realized when I look back, the things that made me proudest were when I did something that I didn't think I was gonna do. That was scary for me. And I'm so proud. I'm so happy. Like, I gained a lot more confidence. And I think that's often the price that we pay, right? The price of confidence is that you have to do things that you are scared of. And once I saw that pattern more and more, I was like, oh, I kind of wanna, like, just do more of that. Like, I realize now what's on the other side. So I started to lean a little bit more into that feeling of being scared. And so the goal that I had for everyday risk is, like, doesn't have to be the big things. You know, it doesn't have to be like, I took a new job or I jumped off of a plane, or I signed myself up for a marathon. Sometimes it can be these little everyday things, and they're just all around us. And so for me, an example of, like, a smaller way to do something I'm scared of is just saying a thing. I'm kind of nervous to say, like, hey, I'm not feeling very good right now. Maybe when someone's like, how are you doing? That seems a little risky because people probably expect me to say, oh, things are great. I'm fine. How are you? Or sometimes maybe I wish that I could relax and maybe not go and sprint the extra mile in my workout. And it sort of scares me because I'm not sure I can do it. And whenever there's this feeling of, like, I'm not sure I can do it, I. Or I'm not sure how other people will feel about this, or I'm not sure, like, if I'm gonna be comfortable, that's the feeling I'm starting to lean into a little bit more, which is like, oh, this is an opportunity for me to probably be proud or brave or whatever it is after the fact.
- [08:44]
Molly Graham
Yeah. First of all, I just wanna say, as someone that knows you, it's blowing my mind that you think of yourself as a scaredy cat. Cause I actually think of you as very brave.
- [08:56]
Julie Zhuo
But.
- [08:56]
Molly Graham
But it sounds like you've turned that into a practice. It's something that you've taught yourself to be good at.
- [09:05]
Julie Zhuo
Yeah. Another way that I sometimes play the story in my mind, and of course we know that stories come and go. Right. Is I think I was forced to be brave in a lot of instances, like, for example, coming to America and having to figure things out when I was at the age of six, or coming and meeting my parents after I hadn't seen them for a very long time. And a lot of those things, I look back and I'm like, yeah, I was really brave, but I don't feel like I had a choice in the matter. And maybe it took a lot out of me so that in other parts of my life, I wanted to stick to what was comfortable or what felt safe. And now the older that I get, the more I'm able to, I think, push those boundaries a little bit more. And so I'm really happy to hear that you, you know, you think that I'm a brave person. I think that there have been cases where, like, I look back, I'm like, yeah, that happened, and I was able to do that. But there were also many times where I know that I was sticking to what felt more comfortable for me. And those are, like, the little boundaries that I now want to expand just because, like, I don't know, it gets easier to do. So when you. When you practice over many years.
- [10:10]
Molly Graham
Yeah, totally. One of the things you said that really resonates with me is that confidence comes because of risk. I think sometimes people feel like you need to be confident and then you can take a risk. But you said, like, looking back on your time at Facebook, you realized that some of the things that you were proudest of were moments when you took a risk. Can you actually remember some of those experiences and tell me some stories of what you were so proud of that felt uncomfortable and scary at the time.
- [10:38]
Julie Zhuo
I think the first one was going and learning to be a designer. Because when I started at Facebook, I was hired as an engineer. I was trained as an engineer, computer science degree. And so I felt that that was what I knew. But what I really loved to do when I was in middle and high school was actually design. I didn't know that that was what it was called at the time. I just like making websites. I liked going and opening Photoshop and creating images and then figuring out how to display those images on my website. But, like, I didn't know that was a profession. I didn't know that was, like, a thing you could do. I felt I picked the closest thing I could, which was like, learning to code and learning engineering. But once I realized that this was actually a thing that people did for. For a job, I was like, wait, I kind of want to do that. But I had no formal training in design. And so when I first joined the design team and everybody's like, talking about typography and they had studied all this, and I remember even getting into a conversation about Macs versus PCs, and the entire design team was utterly convinced that Macs were so much better designed. And I'd never even used a Mac. All I knew was PCs and I was trying to be like, no, no, they're not so bad, blah, blah, blah. And people were just like, who are you and what are you doing here in this club? So I was proud that I was able to start to learn some of those skills and, like, you know, get the grounding and, like, start to push myself in showing designs and getting critique and all of that. So actually even critique in of itself as a design practice, it is essentially where you come up with something and then you show it to a room of designers, and the entire goal is the room is going to go around and kind of tear it apart and show you all the things that you weren't thinking about. And that was, like, terrifying to me. And so practices like that, like, showing up over and over to do that was really, I think I look back and I'm like, I'm really glad I did that. Even though I was so nervous and it was really hard at the time. I think also jumping into management was an example. I was asked to manage and I was just like, sure, but had no idea what it really entailed or what that meant. And just the next couple of years were just me feeling like I didn't really know what I was doing. And all one on ones felt awkward. And trying to figure out how to do things for the first time, whether it was like, give an offer for the first time or negotiate for the first time or tell someone it's not working out for the first time. Like, all of these were hard and I felt scared.
- [13:05]
Molly Graham
Yeah. I am curious though. Like, sounds like you built that practice at Facebook and you started to learn how powerful it was to take risks and then you realized that you weren't naturally doing it. You had to push yourself to do it. And so I know. I think one year you built a daily practice around risk. Will you just explain some of that?
- [13:28]
Julie Zhuo
Yeah, I do challenges for myself every year. I love January. I love, like, the, you know, the chance to, like, sit down and reflect and think about, like, what we learned last year and what should we think about and dream about for the year ahead. So I, like, have this, like, magical set of rituals around January. And I. Every year I try to do some things that I think will be kind of fun but be kind of challenging. And there was one year that I decided to blog and write publicly for the first time. And that was how I started writing on the Internet, which eventually led to writing a book. And I couldn't have predicted that was where it went. But it kind of started from one of those Januarys, I think about two years ago was when I was like, this will be the year of everyday risks. And I try to come up with a little title and a theme for every year. So sometimes there were bigger things and sometimes there were smaller things, like speaking up in a room or trying to tell everyone else to be quiet because we actually need to listen to X person or I need to say something or bigger ones would be like, I went and tried surfing for the very first time, which was also something that terrified me. But it's a blend. It's not like all big things. A lot of it is very little things. Sometimes it felt risky to actually take a break and to spend instead of following my schedule. It felt riskier to be like, no, no, no, I'm Actually just going to this two hour block and I'm going to do something with my kid. So it's a feeling more than it is like a particular action. Because sometimes following a plan when you don't want to feels kind of risky. Sometimes following a plan when you actually kind of want to do something else is the thing that feels risky. So I was leaning a little bit more into how it felt more than what was the specific task.
- [15:15]
Molly Graham
It sounds like from naming it and reflecting on it, it made it easier to identify both what felt risky and when you should take a risk.
- [15:27]
Julie Zhuo
That's right. Yeah. And I think one big learning I had was like, it doesn't always look like the same outcome or activity. Like it's not always, oh, I need to speak up more in this context. Sometimes it's like maybe I need to not say something even though I really, really want to, but maybe it'll actually be better. Or it's like me learning something to not say something in this case. So again, it's very much about trying to follow that feeling more than it is about being very specific. I think that's probably one of the things that I learned the most from that year. If you look at my journal, it's all a very different variety of activities, sometimes conflicting with each other week over week.
- [16:09]
Molly Graham
It's so interesting. I think of you as such a craftsman. It's actually the word that came up for me when I was thinking about you and thinking about talking to you today because obviously you're a designer and you're a craftsman because of that. And I feel like your book was actually all about taking management and turning it into a craft. And it actually turns out that what you did with Risk is try to turn it into a craft, like believing that it was something you could actually get better at through a daily practice. I am curious though. What impact did it have on you? What did it unlock for you to actually name it and see it?
- [16:48]
Julie Zhuo
I think about as training a muscle, which is also one of the things I'm doing now in my later years is actually getting more athletic and doing more sports and things like that. But yeah, when I first started, I couldn't do a single push up. It's been years since I've been able to do a single pushup. And it's not easy to do the first, but after you do the first and the second is easier and the third is slightly easier, so the distance between them gets easier the more you do. And I kind of love that feeling. I remember in Dante's Inferno. There's a beautiful analogy that towards the second half, eventually, it's so hard when you're in the pit, but then when you walk yourself up, eventually, the higher you go, the faster you go until you're finally flying. And I just love that analogy because to me, that's how I think about it, at least in my mind. I'm like, okay, it is hard, but, like, if I can do more and more of them, when I look back, it's like the number of risks that I might be taking, like, now compared to three years or five years ago, like, it feels. It's. It always still feels like the edge of it still feels, like, kind of uncomfortable and, like, a little, you know, sharp and jagged. But on the whole, it just feels easier to do because it feels like I've built up that capacity, like, I've trained more of the muscle. But the good thing about life is it's always meeting you with, like, more and more things. So it kind of just. When you're like, oh, yeah, that kind of thing becomes easier. It's like the boom. It's like the next challenge, the next challenge, next challenge. And I think that's life totally.
- [18:16]
Molly Graham
That's the joy and the torture. The thing that I think is so cool about the way that you think about risk and what you've done is I do actually, a. I think people think of themselves as either good or bad at this. Like, I am not a risk taker, or I am a risk taker. And you built a practice that said, I can get better at this, which is, like, such a powerful thing. And the other thing is, like, you're naming something I really believe, which is that it never goes away. Like, you might get better at one type of thing, or it might get easier maybe, to step into that discomfort. But it's not like you can ever live a life without the opportunity for risk. So actually, just what you get better at is, like, recognizing, oh, I'm feeling that way again, and it's like, I gotta get cool with the discomfort again.
- [19:02]
Julie Zhuo
You know, I also think, Molly, there's such a big difference between the risk that you sign up for or the choices that you make. Like, the agency matters a lot. Like I mentioned earlier, I felt like I had to be brave because circumstances were such that it sort of asked that of me. Right. Like, I didn't get to choose whether or not we were going to move from China to America. Like, I kind of had to, and then I had to deal with it. And even when I was at Facebook. I chose Facebook, but I didn't necessarily, you know, I felt like these opportunities were sort of both either asked of me or like, you know, I was nudged in that direction or you could even argue it was like peer pressure because I was like, around so many incredible people and I just felt like I wanted to keep up in some way. But more and more I find that it makes a big difference if, like, I'm like, no, I'm going to try this. Like, I'm going to try this for me, not because someone else is trying to push me into it or, you know, nudging me into it or saying that this is like the way it should be or that this is what's good for me. It's like I want opt into it. And I think regardless, either way, like, if you opt in, it's going to be hard, but at least, you know, you chose it. If you don't opt in, life's still going to give you a bunch of things as well. So, you know, like, all things being equal, I think there's something that comes from feeling like I am in the driver's seat of like, getting to choose the kinds of things that are hard for myself. And I think there's a lot of joy in that.
- [20:37]
Podcast Host / Sponsor Announcer
This episode is sponsored by Toyota. Expression shows up in ways we don't always notice. It's not just what we say, it's the choices we make, the things we surround ourselves with, the way we move through the world. Even something like the car you drive can be a form of expression. Toyota's new all electric family leans into that idea. The C hr, for example, has a bold, distinctive design, something that stands out a little in a good way. While the BZ and the BZ Woodland each bring their own personality to the table, it's a reminder that the things we use every day don't have to be neutral. They can actually reflect who we are. Learn more at toyota.com, the new all electric family Toyota. Let's go places.
- [21:17]
Julie Zhuo
Today we're talking about how you don't
- [21:19]
Podcast Host / Sponsor Announcer
have to earn more when you can save more. So you brought me this stat. T Mobile customers had the lowest wireless
- [21:23]
Julie Zhuo
bills versus Verizon and AT&T over the past five years. That seems surprising.
- [21:27]
Molly Graham
Yeah, when I first heard it, I thought mmkay. But when the experts at Harris X broke it down, it was true for millions of families. Five years of the lowest wireless bills versus Verizon and att. And in this area where every monthly bill gets noticed, that kind of savings makes a real difference.
- [21:42]
Podcast Host / Sponsor Announcer
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- [21:45]
Julie Zhuo
I'm not hearing any sacrifice here, which
- [21:46]
Molly Graham
is what people need right now.
- [21:48]
Julie Zhuo
Reliability, predictability.
- [21:50]
Molly Graham
That kind of breathing room makes a weekend on the coast a little easier to plan. Affordable wireless service isn't a perk, it's a difference. And listeners. If you don't believe me, you can check it out@t mobile.com Switch savings based
- [22:02]
Podcast Host / Sponsor Announcer
on Harris X billing snapshots from Q3.21 to Q4 25 compared to average ATT and Verizon bills. Comparison excludes discounts, credits and optional charges. For more details, see harrisx.comT Mobile Bills
- [22:12]
Paige Desorbo
hey, it's Paige Desorbo from Giggly Squad. Okay, wait, have you ever had one of those moments where you're like I should be doing something fun tonight and then you just don't because you don't have what you need? Because same. But recently I've been trying to be more of a yes person and honestly, Amazon prime has been enabling that energy. Like the other night I randomly decided I was going to host a last minute girls night. No planning, no groceries, nothing. And instead of spiraling, I just ordered everything I needed and got it that day. Snacks, drinks, even like random hosting things I absolutely didn't need. But emotionally I did. And suddenly it went from maybe next time to yes tonight. That's what I love. Prime Same day delivery makes it so you can say yes before the moment slips away. Because let's be real, the only thing worse than a bad plan is a plan you never make happen.
- [23:00]
Julie Zhuo
Same day delivery. It's on prime. Available in select areas. Terms apply. So if you're trying to be more spontaneous or just less chaotic, go to Amazon.com prime to find millions of items delivered fast.
- [23:17]
Molly Graham
One of the examples you gave earlier of the daily risks was saying something that was uncomfortable, like pushing yourself to to like say the unsaid thing or to like, you know, the feedback that would be so easy to just not say, or the conversation that you know, you can avoid having for months and it just grows and grows. So like, what have you learned from turning that into a practice, turning that into a craft? Like, what have you learned what you need to do in those situations when you disagree with someone or when you need to give someone feedback? That's a little scary.
- [23:47]
Julie Zhuo
Yeah, great question. The first thing I've learned is like I need to be out of my emotionally heated zone. That's like the most important thing. So you know, like I'VE come to realize that whenever there's a feeling, it's like there's something good in that feeling. Right? Let's say, you know, you and I are talking. This will never happen with you, Molly. But, like, let's say you're talking, and I'm, like, real angry about it after the fact. There's a good reason. Usually there is a good reason. There's something that's bothering me about that conversation, and there's something good and pure there. But if I'm angry right now, there's no way we can find the kernel of what was really important about why it bothered me in that moment. And the way I express it is always going to sound kind of egotistical because it's about my hurt, my anger, and why are you doing that thing to me? And it's just, there's no way I can communicate that and give it kind of the attention and the best chance of making it something productive. And so that's the most important thing is awareness of. Wait a second. Am I in a negative head space right now? Because if I'm in a negative head space, this is not the time. Maybe I can journal. Maybe I can, I don't know, try to process it a little bit. But let's come back to it. When I'm feeling more ground and what grounded feels like to me is like, I'm thinking about the bigger picture. Like, I'm thinking about something positive that I truly care about. Right? Not my ego. Not that I'm hurt and angry. Why did Molly do this thing to me? But, like, I want us to create something great together. I want our team to be wildly successful. I want our team. I want our company to hit its goals. You know, I want our relationship to be better for the long term. If I am now starting to think in that zone, and that's my why, then I am ready to figure out what is the kernel of whatever it was and find a way to talk about it. So that's at least my personal litmus test. So it matters for that relationship. It matters that we can, for my values, that we can be the kind of people who we don't bury issues. We don't pretend like everything's good because it's still there. I can still feel the energy, and I want to resolve that. I want to feel like you can trust me and I can trust you. And that's the why.
- [26:01]
Molly Graham
Yeah, it's so interesting, because I think you use the word grounded, and what I hear is, like, you need to be Grounded in a positive vision of sort of like the future and what you want that has nothing to do with being right and has nothing to do with like, it is about the outcome because you're trying to create like a more positive relationship, but it's not about like the outcome you want necessarily, or like, yeah, to your point, like your ego. It's about the fundamental thing underneath it that you're trying to accomplish.
- [26:29]
Julie Zhuo
Yes, that's right. It's not about, like making me feel better in that moment. Right. It's not about like removing a wound. It's not about validating that I'm right or I'm great or I'm. Whatever it is. We're building something collaborative and shared together because we both want a positive and creative vision of the future.
- [26:50]
Molly Graham
Yeah. Okay. You've gotten really good at pushing yourself to take risks. I'm curious, like, how do you know when you shouldn't? Like, how do you know when it's like something you shouldn't do? Like, one thing you said was like, when you're in emotions and anger, but like, just more broadly too, like, when shouldn't you.
- [27:11]
Julie Zhuo
I think, yeah, it's what you mentioned before. I think we have to ask ourselves, why are we doing this? Like, I know some people for whom like whenever, you know, something gets hard or something gets scary, they kind of want to like change everything about their lives. Do you know what I mean? Like, you know, they want to move to a different city and they want to like break up with someone or they want to and like. And it's actually not related. It's like there's something that's scary and maybe the instinct is actually to flee or run and it seems like taking risk, but in some ways it's actually a pattern. It's the opposite of her. It's like it's doing the thing that they're used to doing because it feels safer somehow to do that. Right. I think that if it feels like it is getting grounded in some kind of fleeing or some kind of like avoidance or some kind of trying to get away from a negative feeling or reaction, and it's done when we're still feeling those things, then it might not be the kind of risk that serves our long term purpose. Yeah, it's very hard. I've learned this. It's very hard to judge from the action itself sometimes what often looks to the outset of like, oh, that person is so brave. I've read somewhere that there's a real distinction between having courage and being fearless. And fearlessness is this idea that you're doing it because you're not afraid to do it because it just never, I think it was really ever scary. Maybe it's even intoxicating in some way. Right. Whereas courage is a little bit more grounded. Courage is like you are aware of what all the consequences and ramifications might be and it is scary and there's no guarantee that they won't happen. But you believe this is important because you're doing it towards some greater end. So even though you will still feel scared, you're still taking that step anyway.
- [29:08]
Molly Graham
Dude, I love that. I love that definition. I've never heard the difference between fearlessness and courage, but I. It's, you know, it really resonates with some of the stuff you said around just like being grounded in what's making you afraid, but also in what you want. And if you have that, then you can take a risk knowing why.
- [29:29]
Julie Zhuo
Right? Yeah.
- [29:30]
Molly Graham
Yeah. I genuinely think most people think I'm either good or bad at this and that's like a fixed thing inside of me and my life and my personality. I'm either a risk taker or I'm not. And you've made it a practice of something that you are trying to get better at. And I think you can like unlock that for people, which is that this isn't a fixed thing. This is something that you can practice daily, you know, or weekly.
- [29:56]
Julie Zhuo
Yeah, I do feel that way. I think that like I used to be a very risk averse person and I don't think feel that way anymore. So you know, it's just like there's, there's definitely growth.
- [30:15]
Podcast Host / Sponsor Announcer
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- [31:36]
Paige Desorbo
Hannah, I just Venmo'd you for dinner.
- [31:38]
Julie Zhuo
Obsessed. I'm spending it right now in the lip gloss that's been sitting in my cart.
- [31:42]
Paige Desorbo
What do you mean, spending it right now?
- [31:44]
Julie Zhuo
You can instantly spend your balance with the Venmo debit card or when you pay with Venmo at checkout.
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Paige Desorbo
Stop. Say more.
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Julie Zhuo
More. Exactly. The more you do with Venmo, the more you get, like, earning up to 5% cash back with Venmo Stash. Get the Venmo debit card or checkout online.
- [31:59]
Sponsor Announcer
Venmo Stash bundle terms and exclusions apply. Max $100 per month.
- [32:04]
Julie Zhuo
See terms at Venmo Me Stash terms.
- [32:08]
Sponsor Announcer
Venmo checkout not available at all merchants.
- [32:10]
Julie Zhuo
The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank NA.
- [32:20]
Molly Graham
One of the things I really wanted to talk to you about because you wrote a book on management. It makes you realize that those risks can feel really different depending on how much power someone has, particularly at work, but probably true in life as well. I'm curious, like, how you think about the role of management and risk.
- [32:42]
Julie Zhuo
So I think that what a manager needs to do is bet on certain things. And so when you bet on something, that means you do have to own it. You have to own the responsibility for how it goes. But the decisions are less about exactly what we should do in a lot of cases. But who should we trust? Who knows the best amongst our group what to do in this case or what great looks like here. And therefore they should be the ones made decision. But I also think it's super important that if it doesn't go well, you kind of have to own that outcome as well. Because at the end of the day, you made the bet. If I said, hey, I think that when it comes to this issue, George on the team has the most context. Let's follow his lead. He says, we're going to go with this decision. We follow the decision. I think mistake number one is if I believe I know better than George, and then I'm like, no, we have to do this. But it turns out George is better. There may be some cases in which maybe I do know better than everyone in my team, and therefore I should make the decision. It's not that I think micromanaging is always wrong. It can be the right thing to do if you truly do know better than everyone else on your team. But at that point, maybe you should be hiring a better team or maybe there's something else that's going on in terms of the structure that goes back to. I think good management is really about just being very aware and continually testing your judgment against reality and being open enough to see when things are or aren't working. I think that at the same time, I think it's about trust as well. So, like, in this case, like, George has to feel that I am on his side. Like, I am doing whatever I can to help him succeed and do my best until, again, new information emerges that it was ultimately the wrong judgment call to make.
- [34:28]
Molly Graham
Yeah, I'm curious, like, what you think about the phrase, like, safe space or something like that. Because, like, I do think one definition of a great manager is someone who makes it safe for a team to take risks or an individual to, like, put themselves out there and try things that are scary or they might not be good at or to advocate for something. And a bad manager is someone that, like, can make everything inside of that feel risky or like your whole reputation is on the line. Do you think safety is sort of like a part of what great managers create?
- [35:03]
Julie Zhuo
Absolutely. I think it's really important for people to feel like it's okay sometimes that we try some things and they don't work out. One of the things that I tell my team right now, we're all in this very, I think, intense AI period where feels like every single week things are changing. The way teams work are changing. The technologies that are coming out and what it enables are changing at such a rapid clip. And so in those cases, I think often people ask these questions of, like, well, what's the world going to be like in three months or six months? What really matters? What are the big bets? And to be honest, I don't know that. I know. I don't know that a lot of people in this world really can say with any amount of great certainty what will happen in some number of weeks or months or years. And I think to pretend otherwise is not doing the team or anyone a service. So in those cases, what I told my team is, you know what? This is the time for us to try a lot of things and to take risks. The thing that I would ask of you is that we're Here to learn. And so if you have a great idea and you have a hypothesis as to why this is going to be great for our product, our company, I want you to feel like you can take that. I also want you to know it's okay if you're wrong, but what I'm going to ask of you is if you are wrong, I'd like you to be the person most obsessed with. With figuring out as quickly as possible that you were wrong. I'd like you to be the first person to say, hey, I tried this thing and I thought it was going to do this, this, this. And then I went and had a good go, and it turned out that this isn't the right path for us. Let's do something else that still allows people to take risks, but do so in a way where we all feel like we have the team's best interests in mind. So it's really important. I think that when I think about the dynamic in a team, we can't take risks. We feel like there's always going to be a evaluator or judge who is just looking at our every single move. It doesn't feel good. It's like someone is just like, Big Brother is watching you, and it's like, did you do this enough? Did you do this? And they're looking at your activities or your behaviors and assessing whether or not you're here, you're going to make it. But I do think that what's important is this sense of trust. And what trust comes down to is, do we see things in the same way? Are our values aligned? Do we both understand what success looks like? I think that's such an important question, that what I believe is success for the team and what everybody on the team believes is success for the team. If that is unified, if that's like, we're on the same page, we all know what we're trying to shoot for as well as we all know what values are there. Right. Like, what does it mean to work in a way that's respectful? What does it mean to kind of shoot for excellence? Like, how do we treat each each other when things are hard? These are all what I mean by base values. I think if those two things are good, then you know what? People should have more and more freedom. I really believe in that level of empowerment, because that's what I had people to do, is just to go and do their best work and use all that talent and skill and brain power and collaboration to make something that makes our team better.
- [38:20]
Molly Graham
Yeah. But I Am curious because not everyone in the world has like done the work to think through. What does it mean to be a manager? What does it mean to sort of like get the most out of the team? And I think a lot of people are like trapped in work situations where a manager makes things feel unsafe or makes things, you know, a lot of those like day to day risks that you talk about feel scary, including like giving feedback or setting a boundary or saying, I'm not going to work, you know, at night. Like some of that can feel like your job or your reputation or your, you know, to your point about performance reviews, like that's on the line. How do you think about risk in a situation like that? Like, how do you actually influence or work with or like, how would you tell someone to think about risk in that situation?
- [39:11]
Julie Zhuo
I think that for all of us, especially now in an era where things feel very uncertain in terms of like, what's the future going to hold, what's going to happen with technology? I think the most important thing for everyone, whether you're a manager, whether you're somebody who is on a team and you're worried about the environment of your team, to I think take a step back and to ask ourselves what really matters. It's sort of like the meta level, right? So we talked a little bit about like sort of more maybe bounded areas. Like when you're a team, you're like, what does success look like for a team? But if we like step back, we're like, what does success look like for, for my life, what really matters to me again goes back to like, what would I consider if I look back 20 years from now, 50 years from now, that I would have been proud to do? What is it when I look back and think about my values, like, how do I want to work, how do I want people to treat each other, what do I care about? And I think when we think like that, it's very generative. Like it feels like it comes from a very energizing and generative place, which is great. Like that's like kind of the energy that we want to go into sometimes these harder decisions, like we want to kind of come from what is like our purpose. Like what do we care about? What do we want to be a part of? I think what can happen is that, you know, in the day to day, like something can happen and we can often get very reactive about it. Right? So for example, to your point, this example of like, hey, I don't really want to work this weekend or tonight because like, something else is really happening in my life that really matters to me. You know, maybe it's family. It's whatever. And I think if you're able to zoom out and ask yourself, okay, no, like, 20 years from now, what's going to be important? It gives us a little bit more of, like, a framework or a grounding to then go into those decisions and to be able to, I think, feel sturdier. Sturdiness is kind of, I think, this, like, sense of groundedness. It's like, you know, where you stand for, you know, where you come from. And therefore, when other things kind of react, right, other things reacting kind of feels like my mind, like weather. It's like there's wind that's blowing. There's a storm, there's this, there's that. Right? And it, in fact, impacts us. For sure, it does. You know, it can make it very difficult for us, but if we can, then take a moment to be like, okay, but what is the value that we have? Like, for me, it's like, I want to go back and feel like, you know, as much as I love my job and working and, like, being a startup founder, like, I don't want to look back in 20 years and feel like I, like, missed time with my family and my kids and the people who are close to me. Like, I let friendships, you know, wilt or whatnot. So sometimes just having time to ask those questions and then be like, okay, so now this thing is happening. Yes, there is an urgent work task. What really matters. It becomes easier again. Our decisions are always going to be very personal. What I decide will be very different than what you or somebody else decides. But I think as long as we know ourselves more deeply, it will become easier for us to be able to then take that risk or do the thing that feels a little bit scary in that moment because we know why we're doing it. Like, what does it really ladder up to in the long stretch of time?
- [42:17]
Molly Graham
Julie said so many brilliant things that I want to remember. One is something I believe that is still kind of blowing my mind, which was the difference between fearlessness and courage. Because sometimes I think we think like, oh, the goal is to be fearless. But she defined that as acting without fear, which can actually be reckless, right? To not be afraid of things that are actually scary. But she said that courage is being aware of your fear, being aware of the consequences of what could happen. That's bad. But still acting because it's important and because there's this positive, shared purpose that you're trying to build towards and that makes you realize that the goal is courage, right? The goal is to have the courage to do the things that are important. And wouldn't we all be a little bit better off if we did that every day or every year? Work Life is a production of Ted and Pushkin Industries. This episode was produced by Isaac Carter and Leah Rose. Banban Chang is our story editor. Mixing by Hansdale Shih. Ted's executive producer is Daniela Balarazo. Constanza Gallardo is the executive producer for Pushkin. Special thanks to Roxanne hi Lash, Valentina Bohanini, Lainey Lott, Tansika Sungman Ivong and Ashley Murphy. If you like the show and want more, come join the discussion on my substack Less Than Lessons. I'm Molly Graham. Thanks for listening.
- [44:02]
Podcast Host / Sponsor Announcer
This episode is sponsored by Toyota. There's a difference between having options and having the right options. When something is designed well, it doesn't just give you more choices, it gives you choices that actually make sense for how you live. That's the thinking behind Toyota's new all electric lineup. Instead of a one size fits all approach, they've built a family of vehicles. The versatile bz, the adventurous BZ Woodland, and the expressive chr. Each one meeting people where they are. Because independence isn't about doing everything differently. It's about doing things in a way that feels natural to you. Learn more@toyota.com the new all electric family Toyota Let's Go Places ActiveCampaign is the marketing automation platform built for big swings and big dreams with intelligent suggestions. Powered by AI and your data. Generate ideas in seconds, import your brand and create full campaigns with simple prompts. Send personalized messages backed by real time feedback, smart segmentation and effortless reporting that tracks every win. Let's redefine what's possible together. Get started for free@activecampaign.com hi there, it's Adam Grant from Ted's Rethinking Podcast and this episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. I get to spend my days studying how people think and what it actually takes to change our minds. It's work I find deeply meaningful. But even in meaningful work, there's still busy work. The admin, the repetitive processes, the invisible load that pulls attention away from what really matters. That's where ServiceNow's AI specialists come in. They don't just tell you what you should do about your busy work. They actually do it. Start to finish, cases closed, requests handled, no extra work for you. To learn how to put AI to work for people.
- [45:48]
Julie Zhuo
Visit servicenow.com this episode is brought to you by Choiceology, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Hosted by Katie Milkman, an award winning behavioral scientist and author of best selling book how to Change, Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind our decisions. Hear true stories from Nobel laureates, authors, athletes and everyday people about why we do the things we do. Listen to choiceology@schwab.com podcast or wherever you listen.