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- [00:02]
Chris Duffy
This is how to be a better human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy, and one of my favorite things in the entire
- [00:08]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
world is improv comedy.
- [00:09]
Chris Duffy
I know that is very much not
- [00:11]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
cool and hip to say that one of my favorite things in the entire universe is adults playing make believe together.
- [00:16]
Chris Duffy
But it is true.
- [00:17]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
I absolutely love it.
- [00:19]
Chris Duffy
And I think that one of the things that I love the most about it, whether it's watching it or performing it myself, is that good improv skills, in my opinion, are the same as good people skills.
- [00:30]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
How do you listen really closely?
- [00:32]
Chris Duffy
How do you make other people look good? How do you deal with unexpected situations? How do you remember something that is fun and playful and bring it back later on? They're all skills that are kind of basic to improv, but they're also skills that make people the kinds of people that I want to spend time with, the kinds of people that I want to be around. And today's guest, Rick Andrews, is an incredible improviser. He is very much someone who I
- [00:56]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
want to spend time with.
- [00:57]
Chris Duffy
But more than just being a great performer, Rick is an amazing teacher.
- [01:01]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
He has been teaching for years.
- [01:03]
Chris Duffy
He's taught so, so, so many people. And what he's learned is that we can all get better at playing, at improvising and making our lives funnier, more exciting and more of an all around good time. We're going to talk so much more about how to do that. But first we're going to take a quick break for a few words from our sponsors. This episode is sponsored by Toyota. There's something powerful about momentum, that feeling when things are moving forward, when you're not stuck, you're not waiting, you're just going. That's true in life and it's true in how we move through the world. Toyota's new all electric vehicles are built to support that kind of momentum. Whether it's the quick acceleration of the C hr, the versatility of the BZ, or the capability of the BZ Woodland. And with access to a growing network of chargers, including Tesla superchargers, it's designed to keep you moving, not slowing you down. Because capability isn't just about power, it's about removing friction. Learn more at toyota.com, the new all electric family Toyota. Let's go places.
- [02:14]
Starbucks Advertiser
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- [03:07]
Chris Duffy
And we are back. Today we are talking about improv with Rick Andrews.
- [03:12]
Rick Andrews
Hi, my name is Rick Andrews. I teach and perform improvisation.
- [03:16]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
So Rick, you've been performing and teaching for a really long time. And I have been a fan of your work for a really long time from the first time I saw you. And every time I see you, I'm always struck by what a talent, talented performer you are.
- [03:29]
Chris Duffy
But I also am struck by the fact that your real passion, I think,
- [03:33]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
and correct me if I'm wrong, isn't actually about being on stage and getting the attention for yourself. It's really about teaching and sharing improvisation with others.
- [03:41]
Rick Andrews
Yeah, I really enjoy performing and I find that very like satisfying. But it feels like, I don't know, it's like a sugar rush a little bit that kind of fades quickly. And I feel like teaching and watching people get excited and fall in love with something that you are excited about feels really meaningful in a nice way. And part of what is nice about improv is that, I don't know, it's not just about being funny. So I think if it was just kind of like, I'll teach you how to be funny, I don't know that I would feel deeply passionate about. I think it's more about the sense of presence and creativity and being playful and being less self judgmental. I think a lot of those are things that help people not freak out all day long. Certainly helped me that way. So it feels like there's something meaningful that's being delivered in the almost by accident, in the act of learning how to improvise.
- [04:30]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
Well, so for people who don't aren't already familiar with your work, I mean, you're too humble to fully brag for yourself. But I will just say from my perspective, you are truly regarded as one of the single greatest improv teachers in the world. And you have taught everyone from, you've taught children, you've taught senior citizens, you've taught people in big corporations, you've taught Ira Glass from this American Life. You've taught Oran Mavdani, the mayor of New York before he was the mayor. So you've really taught this huge range of people over many, many years. What do you think the biggest thing that a regular person, someone who is not interested in being a comedy professional, gets out of learning improv?
- [05:12]
Rick Andrews
I think managing uncertainty. Improv is making up an idea, a scene, a story on the fly. Right. And the inherent nature of that is that you cannot be in control of where it's going to go. And I think people's brains do not, like, change and that kind of disruptive feeling. And so there's this protective cognitive shell that we throw around where we lock into ideas or we kind of disconnect from what's actually going on. And I think it's not that improv makes you better at knowing what's going to happen. I think if you watch where they get improvised, it kind of seems like they know where it's going. But you don't develop this kind of clairvoyance. You instead just get very comfortable not knowing what's going to happen and managing uncertainty. But the extra anxiety on top of it of managing that uncertainty, of all the stuff that I can't control, I think becomes. You don't turn it off entirely. But that voice gets quieter, I think. I've noticed it's kind of not possible to be bored if you're hanging out with three or four improvisers. It's not really. Because if nothing's happening, well, it's kind of not really possible. You're sitting at the airport terminal and there's a delay. You know, instead of people just, like, complaining all the time. I don't know, I feel like people just, like, look around a little bit and they're like, hey, look at how that guy walks. That's interesting. Yeah. That sign doesn't make any sense. You know, why do they call it Hudson News? Whatever. Like, there's just a kind of curiosity about the present moment that I think does, like, translate off of the stage a little bit.
- [06:36]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
The way that we are talking right now is actually kind of a great illustration of what building the muscles of improvisation have allowed you to do.
- [06:44]
Chris Duffy
Because we are talking about, like, not
- [06:47]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
around the day that you are moving across continents, but literally, like, you are doing this interview, and then in several hours you will leave for the airport to move from the United States to Europe. And you seem so unbothered by that. The fact that we're, like, talking now and then you're going to have to leave to the airport. And bring your family to an entirely new continent.
- [07:08]
Chris Duffy
I would be.
- [07:09]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
Even though I have studied improv two, I would be like, pouring sweat and so stressed. And yet you seem remarkably unstressed about the fact that you're about to do a transcontinental movement there.
- [07:16]
Rick Andrews
I might be like missing a section of my brain, you know, But I do think that, like, I taught all my classes yesterday. Like, Sunday is a day that I teach and perform. And my classes were like, oh, when are you moving? And I was like, tomorrow. And they were all like, why are you here? Yes, that's exactly right. I, like, didn't understand the question, the reaction. I was like, I teach on Sundays. This is our last class. You know, I feel like improv is like, I've heard from people. It's like it helps on dates and job interviews or whatever. Not that that's like the purpose of it, you know, or like how, like why you should do it. But it is one of those things where anything where you're in this situation where you feel a little nervous, you don't know how it's going to go. Someone might ask a question you weren't expecting. It's a lot of just managing that moment a little bit. And I think you're doing that through an enhanced set of listening skills a little bit. Just paying attention, being in the moment, noticing stuff. But also I think it builds self confidence in a more genuine way. It's not about, I don't know, pretending to be this confident person. It's improv is a lot of, as I'm sure you felt, learning it and getting really good at it. It's like you are trying your hand at it and not great at it at first, but you're doing it in this context where people are building off of every idea you say, no matter how bad it is, and people support you. So you kind of get to prove your idea's validity to yourself. I feel like I constantly was having moments where I was like, I don't know what I should do. And then I would say a thing and your scene partner's like, great. And then you're like, okay, yeah, that was good.
- [08:36]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
It's.
- [08:37]
Rick Andrews
It is like putting the bumpers up on the bowling alley lane so you can't actually get a gutterball. And that's what improv feels to me.
- [08:42]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
In a lot of ways. It reveals a truth that we all know, right? Which is that you can actually only control the thing in the present moment. You only control what you're doing right now. You've acknowledged the truth that a lot of us pretend that we don't do.
- [08:57]
Rick Andrews
I wish I had packed more earlier. Absolutely. It's not that you learn this skill and then you stop planning for things. It's just that no matter how much you plan, you can't control everything. And so planning is really good, but it's just. It's never going to go exactly how you think it's going to go, and it's never going to be. And I think some of that also, like, there's a reduction of anxiety. There's also kind of when you're so anxious and worried about it and it saps you from the present, you're missing out on all these really wonderful, like, moments. We both have, like, young kids. And I wonder if you felt some of this being with, like, a little kid where they just, like, stop and, like, look at a leaf.
- [09:30]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
Totally.
- [09:30]
Rick Andrews
And they will sit there and look at a leaf for, like, five minutes. And it's not an activity that I often do, like walking around, but it's awesome. Looking at a leaf totally rocks. And I should stop more and look at a leaf thinking about all the 10 things I have to do. I'm kind of missing the thing that is happening. And in improv, as you're building scenes, that's where a lot of the joy and discovery comes from, that we get to figure out these fun ideas together. And in life, it feels like when I remind myself to do that, I'm like, actually, I notice stuff. I notice things that are beautiful or sad or interesting or compelling or funny or whatever it is.
- [10:00]
Chris Duffy
Yeah.
- [10:00]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
Well, one of the things that I think is so great about spending time with a young kid is they combine what we've been talking about, like that real presence in the moment, because they just live in the moment, but they also combine it with this silliness. And I think it's not always intentional with a kid, but I think as an adult, this is the other flip side of improv, is the silliness and play that I love. I mean, I was trying to think in preparation for this interview what my first memory of you was, and it was watching you perform at an improv festival. I think it was in Boston. And you were an anthropomorphized gumball machine, and you were performing as the gumball machine.
- [10:40]
Chris Duffy
And it was so silly. And I just remember laughing so hard,
- [10:43]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
like, truly tears coming down my cheeks as I was watching you be.
- [10:47]
Rick Andrews
Sometimes doing improv, it's like. It's like someone who, like, gets Blackout drunk. They don't remember what they did. You're like, if you say so. Yeah.
- [10:53]
Chris Duffy
Well, also, you've done this, like, thousands of times.
- [10:55]
Rick Andrews
That sounds fun. I would do that again if I. If I did that. That sounds great.
- [10:58]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
Yeah.
- [10:58]
Chris Duffy
Well, but this is what I mean.
- [11:00]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
It's like, it was really fun, but it was also so silly. Like, you were in the moment pretending to be that. But also, that's not something that, like, you could be very in the moment for your whole life and never pretend to be a gumball machine, because there's a silliness there that is also like that Bringing that childlike play back into your life as an adult is also a big piece of this, too.
- [11:16]
Rick Andrews
I think that's part of also what it's like. It feels like kind of meaningful silliness, you know, because it's. It's a collaborative thing, not like a. The kind of silly, jokey thing that feels unfun is talking to someone and they're trying to take everything you say and be funny and do a bit. And it's kind of intolerable because it's not really a genuine engagement with you versus this sense of playfulness where they're there and engaging with you, but they're just seeing the world with a playful eye and pretend to be a gumball. Sheen that was alive would probably not be very fun if I was doing it with a bunch of people who acted like what I was doing was so lame and stupid. Yeah. And but you're doing in this context where everybody else. I'm sure I don't remember that show, but I'm sure they were all like, this is great. And they, like, built around it. And so it's kind of like you learn over time that, like, one, like, the confidence and the lack of, like, self criticism, I think is actually, like, what the audience is engaging with. Like, they want to watch you guys, like, play in this, like, fully present way. And also you're, like, freed up to do that through the support of it. Like, I don't know that I have it in me to, like, do that by myself, to just be. You know, people have your back and they're going to make whatever you do look good. It just creates this huge space where you actually feel like you can't fail, or it's kind of not even on you to figure out why it's good. It's like, probably people are going to do that job. And I think that's a huge part of it, is the rapport and the trust in the corporate term of psychological safety, I do think that that is a lot of what improv is building.
- [12:42]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
This is what I have trouble sometimes explaining to people who haven't done improv a lot, or even people who are improvisers who just improv different way than I do, is that I think the skill is really great, and I think it builds these cool muscles of attention and playfulness and connectivity. But to me, the thing that actually I really loved the most about improv, and I like doing standup, too. I like doing all sorts of comedy. But the thing that I loved the most about improv was when you perform a lot with the same people. So not just once. Right. Like, once you still feel that, oh, you have my back. But, like, when you really get to know each other and you know what they think is funny and, you know, the things that they have references for and the things that they don't have cultural references for, that, like, deep knowledge of each other combined with the trust that you're gonna make each other look good. That, to me was like. What was so magic was being in a moment where I knew, like, my friend Tim actually does not know anything about Shakespeare, and yet if I say to him, you're a famous Shakespearean actor, he will immediately pretend to be a Shakespearean actor and he'll say everything wrong. And we will just agree that that is correct. And the aud audience will laugh because it's so obvious how he does not know Shakespeare, and yet he's going for it because we're all going to make him look good on that. That is the joy, I think.
- [13:55]
Rick Andrews
Yeah. It is really nice to be in a supportive context. I remember going back to my college improv team reunion show, and there are a bunch of folks there who I had improvised with when I was a freshman and they were seniors. I really only did improv with them for one year, and they were now, this was 10 years after I graduated. So it was. Everybody was of full adults. And I haven't seen people yet in a long time. And it was that thing of, like, you kind of expect, oh, it's that person. Then you're kind of hanging out and you're like, oh, we actually don't know each other that well at all because I haven't talked to you in 10 years. And then we did the show. It kind of felt like no time had passed. Just so weird because it was like, oh, yeah. I actually didn't know these people in this, like, social way that much. I wasn't, like, hanging out with them every weekend necessarily. But I knew them in this playful way. The way I knew them is this like language of communication that we have as we're improvising together. There is that weird kind of connection where you're like, oh yeah. I just feel like we're like on the same wavelength at this point.
- [14:45]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
And I also think it's a feeling you can get in a really long term relationship, whether that is a romantic relationship or a friend relationship. But improv, I think especially the way that you teach can be a way to. It's a shortcut to get there. You can get that kind of emotional intimacy and that safety with people in a much shorter amount of time. Which is why I think a lot of people do really value this in like a, a corporate or work setting or universities because you want to have that closeness, but you don't have, you know, 10 years of hanging out to get to that place.
- [15:17]
Rick Andrews
I do think it is helpful in all the ways that we're talking about, but it's not like you go in the room being like the entire point of everything we're doing is to be more confident or to be a better doctor or to have friends or whatever. Yeah, it's kind of like you learn and grow through the act of like trying to develop a craft and trying to do this task together. I feel like a lot of people I know who I feel are really, I don't know, I admire or mature in these ways. I do think in a weird way sometimes a lot of them kind of found themselves through the act of doing a thing that wasn't the purpose of it wasn't to fix them or make them something better or whatever. It was just kind of like they got really into rock climbing or they got super into playing the piano or whatever it is. And then in each one of these skills or whatever, if you apply yourself to it, it has different lessons to teach you. Like running an amusement takes a kind of dedication and like, like a commitment to practice that for example, improv does not require, you know. So yeah, like rock climbing requires a little bit of like facing like physical fears in a way that like in probably scary but not in like, I'm going to fall off the rock way.
- [16:16]
Chris Duffy
And yet many people do feel that. I think a lot of people feel
- [16:18]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
that like visceral physical fear of like, I'm going to be in front of people performing, being silly. Like that is. I think a lot of people fear that more than falling off the rock.
- [16:27]
Rick Andrews
But you kind of know that you're actually not going to die when you are rock climbing. You might actually die. Yeah, I guess that's true. So I think each one of these things, it's like pulling different parts of a potential version of you kind of out. Your current personality is interacting with this craft or skill or game or sport or activity and having that right angle on it versus when I have students who are, for example, they're really obsessed with getting good. It's actually really unfun energy to perform with. I just want to do it right. And it's kind of like people are like, yeah, this is cool. I'm going to keep doing it and see how it goes. That actually turns into building a lot of skills pretty quickly. So there's something kind of nice about it that we have this group task and the actual focus is not on what I'm getting out of this, what I'm supposed to be doing. It's all on helping the group, helping the moment, helping the scene, being present so that it can be successful. Kind of requires forgetting yourself in it, which I think is one of the active ingredients in why this thing is fun and also meaningful in a way that doesn't feel like disposable.
- [17:26]
Chris Duffy
I'm going to take a quick break
- [17:28]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
and then we will be right back.
- [17:35]
Chris Duffy
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- [19:38]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
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- [19:46]
Chris Duffy
This episode is sponsored by Toyota. Expression shows up in ways we don't always notice. It's not just what we say, it's the choices we make, the things we surround ourselves with, the way we move through the world. Even something like the car you drive can be a form of expression. Toyota's new all electric family leans into that idea. The C hr, for example, has a bold, distinctive design, something that stands out a little in a good way. While the BZ and the BZ Woodland each bring their own personality to the table. It's a reminder that the things we use every day don't have to be neutral. They can actually reflect who we are. Learn more at toyota.com, the new all electric family Toyota. Let's go places. And we are back.
- [20:33]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
The funniest people who I've ever done improv with are often almost clueless as to why the laugh is happening. And it's because they're so committed to just like saying the thing that they're seeing. Or they say something that is unusual but is true to what they're feeling and that gets this huge laugh. And it's so fun to play with them because they're unexpected but they're also genuine. And that's something that doesn't really work in other contexts, but I think in real life we love that too, right? Like you walk into a room and it smells really bad and a bunch of people are pretending like it doesn't smell bad. And then someone just goes, it smells horrible in here. That person calling out the reality of it is often the person where you're like, okay, at least that one person is real. And I think in an improv scene, that's often the funniest thing that a person can do is just to say exactly what is happening.
- [21:15]
Rick Andrews
Oh, totally. Yeah. I'm remembering a guy who used to perform at the theater who was like. He was like one of the worst actors I'd ever seen in my entire life. But he had this incredible stage charm. He was just like one of these guys that his action personality lacked that, like, censor. He was just like. It never occurred to him to not say exactly what popped into his brain, even if there was no possible way to justify or explain why that is. And so it's like, on paper, he would be making the wrong choice, but it always felt joyful and fun, and it was so fun to play with because you knew it was authentic and genuine versus someone who's kind of like, you probably talk a lot about the s hand. How can I build off this idea? So it's like, sometimes someone start a scene, and they're like, dad, I have to go to the potty. And the other person's like, son, you're 35. And it gets this kind of cheap laugh where it's kind of like that laugh kind of comes at the expense of your partner. You know, they don't think they're 35, right?
- [22:01]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
Yeah.
- [22:02]
Rick Andrews
Yeah. What really matters, actually, is not whether we get the ideas right. It's that we're trying to do it. So it's kind of like, what was my honest read on your thing? And if I get it wrong, that actually still feels really fun and joyful.
- [22:13]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
You know, people talk about yes, and as, like, we agree and then we build.
- [22:16]
Chris Duffy
But I think there's this other piece
- [22:17]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
in exactly what you said, right? Someone starts a scene and they say,
- [22:21]
Chris Duffy
I have to go to the potty, daddy.
- [22:22]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
And then the person says, son, you're 35. The reason denying what that person said, it doesn't work, like, on a technical comedic level. It gets this cheap laugh and doesn't keep going.
- [22:32]
Chris Duffy
But the thing that it took me
- [22:34]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
a long time to put my finger on is one of the things that is so beautiful about improv is, like, I walk on stage, and I am not my physical form.
- [22:42]
Chris Duffy
I am not like a white dad
- [22:44]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
in his late 30s. Right. I could be anything. I could be a giant red balloon. I could be a gumball machine. I could be a gumball machine.
- [22:51]
Chris Duffy
I could be a spaceship. I could be a tiny little squirrel.
- [22:54]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
I could be a woman from 1835. Right. Like, I could be anything. And so what you have to do as your.
- [23:01]
Chris Duffy
As the partner is to pay attention
- [23:03]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
to how that person is defining themselves.
- [23:06]
Rick Andrews
Yeah.
- [23:06]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
And if you don't and you just put a definition on them that is
- [23:09]
Chris Duffy
not true to what they've said in
- [23:11]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
the scene, it's you kind of like putting your preconceptions on them.
- [23:14]
Chris Duffy
And you see this a lot of
- [23:15]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
times where people, like, won't let, for example, like a female improviser, they won't let them play a male character. And it's like, well, that is you bringing all your own crap into the scene rather than actually existing in the scene. And I think that's like. That's where the beauty is, is like, actually just seeing the person as what they are claiming to be and defining themselves as rather than your idea of who they have to be.
- [23:38]
Rick Andrews
You know, if I have students in their 60s and 70s, like, you know, sometimes they'll come out and be like, nice kick, flip. And the other person's like, thanks, Grandpa. And it's like, I don't think he thought he was your grandpa. You know? You know, people who are 24, like, only they maybe don't have a bunch of friends who are 75. So their only association is like, you're my grandpa. Right. And it's that cool way of seeing kind of beyond each other. Like, let's take the thing of I need to go to the potty. Son, you're 35. Right. So if you do it the opposite way, where it's like, dad, I need to go to the potty. Right. Good enterprises are just getting as much possible information out of it as can. So not only did I tell you that you're my dad, but I think I'm probably pretty strongly imply that we are not at home. Right. Because if they can use the potty, they could maybe go by themselves at a certain point or whatever. But there's also something in the tone of voice. It's why it's like, I kind of need your help or whatever. So if we're at home, I do need you to help me. I'm not able to go by myself kind of thing. You actually already have narrowed the frame in a subtle way. But if you're ignoring all that to get this joke, you actually don't pick up on any of those potential information, so you lose it. And if you really think about what you're doing there on a cognitive level and you're kind of thinking, what do I think you think is true about the scene? And because this is a fictional world, I'm essentially asking myself, how are you seeing the world? It's kind of like the literal definition of empathy, right. It's like trying to see the world from someone else's eyes. And I do think that's kind of like why that thing works is I have to do this perspective taking in order to not just understand what did you say or do, but not where are you going with it? Because there is no. We're not in control of that. But given all of the clues I have, what do I think you think is happening right now? Right.
- [25:10]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
I actually do buy into why so many, like business people or leaders or, you know, people in stressful situations take improv workshops. It's for exactly that.
- [25:19]
Chris Duffy
Right.
- [25:19]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
Because how do you not bring your own ideas about what this person is telling you, but instead really hear what someone is saying and get all the information out of it? To not put them in a box, but rather to actually, like, hear what's in the moment is.
- [25:32]
Chris Duffy
Is a really incredibly super valuable skill for a leader.
- [25:36]
Rick Andrews
I did a workshop with a bunch of physicians recently, and we ended up having this really interesting conversation about the difference between yeah and yeah. It's like, okay, does it hurt if I do this? Yeah. Does it hurt if I do this? Yeah. They're different, Right. One is like 8 and the other is like 6.5 or whatever. Right. But it's all in the tone. And I think, like, my understanding is that a lot of doctors get trained kind of like how salespeople get trained sometimes, where it's like, here's the. The things you're going to say. And then depending on what they answer, you're going to go down this pathway or this pathway where it's like, I'm asking you these 12 questions right, in a row. And so I might hear the actual answers you give. But if I'm in my head thinking about what the next question is, I now may be missing some of the little human things, which is ultimately, sometimes when I go to the doctor, I don't just want information about what is wrong with me, but I want someone to tell me that I'm going to be okay. You know what I mean? Which is an emotional need that is not a medical one. And you're not going to pick up on that. In the symptoms that I present, you're going to pick up on that and, like, noticing my body language and my facial expressions and my tone of voice.
- [26:37]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
So you walk into a room full of doctors and you are there to Lead an improv workshop. What's an exercise that you do with them that you feel like unlocks something inside of them?
- [26:50]
Rick Andrews
A lot of what we start with is just warming up, do a little name game, get to know each other, have a little fun. Some group exercises just so people can feel like, oh, this is actually not so hard. And we're doing it. There's a yes and exercise that I often use in these workshops at companies and in level one in prep class. It's called Alibi. Do you remember this game, Chris?
- [27:07]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
I don't know. Remind me.
- [27:08]
Rick Andrews
Okay. It's great. So the setup is like, I'm the facilitator. I am a parent. And then we get two people up, and they are my teenage children who are siblings. And so the setup is that they're coming home late, past their curfew, and what they've really been doing is they were at a party, but I will ground them. That's not a good reason to be late. Right. So instead, the two teenagers have to come up with a lie on the spot about why they're late. If they contradict each other, that's when I know that they're lying. But if they support each other, then they might get out of trouble. So if I'm like, why are you late? And the person was like, oh, we got stuck in traffic. But then the other person was like, no, we didn't. We were swallowed by a whale. Okay. You know, but it was like, oh, we got stuck in traffic. Yeah. There was a big event at the aquarium. Yeah. They brought. They're having a blue whale. It's the first time ever a blue whale in captivity, et cetera, et cetera. So now we're, like, riffing off of each other. The context is very intuitive that we are on the same team. And it's not. I'm not trying to win this game. We both succeed by making each other look good.
- [28:08]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
Okay, and then what about muscle building exercises that people do? I mean. Well, I'll tell you one that I think of a lot, which is like seven things. So it's just naming seven things in the category. And I think of that as just a great way of getting out of the idea of right and wrong. Right. But you give someone a category, they name as fast as they can.
- [28:26]
Rick Andrews
So, Chris, seven Winter Olympic sports.
- [28:29]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
Okay, ready?
- [28:31]
Rick Andrews
Yeah.
- [28:33]
Chris Duffy
Skiing.
- [28:33]
Rick Andrews
1.
- [28:34]
Chris Duffy
Sledding.
- [28:35]
Rick Andrews
2.
- [28:35]
Chris Duffy
Bobsledding, 3. Ice skating.
- [28:38]
Rick Andrews
4.
- [28:39]
Chris Duffy
Ice skating with jumping.
- [28:40]
Rick Andrews
5.
- [28:40]
Chris Duffy
Ice skating with falling.
- [28:42]
Rick Andrews
6.
- [28:43]
Chris Duffy
Rocket launching.
- [28:44]
Rick Andrews
7. Yeah.
- [28:44]
Chris Duffy
And serial.
- [28:45]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
Okay.
- [28:46]
Rick Andrews
8. Yeah. Great. And then you did the thing too, which is like, okay, now do a version where like explicitly you have to be wrong. So I'm going to give you a category and it's only incorrect answers.
- [28:55]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
Oh, great. Okay, let's do that.
- [28:56]
Rick Andrews
That's fun. Seven Made up incorrect breakfast cereals.
- [28:59]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
Okay.
- [29:00]
Chris Duffy
Sardine Trans.
- [29:01]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
One King Cobra.
- [29:05]
Rick Andrews
Two.
- [29:06]
Chris Duffy
Sharp edges.
- [29:08]
Rick Andrews
Three.
- [29:09]
Chris Duffy
Square buttons.
- [29:10]
Rick Andrews
Four.
- [29:12]
Chris Duffy
Taco Littles. Five Giant squares.
- [29:16]
Rick Andrews
Six.
- [29:17]
Chris Duffy
Tree Balls.
- [29:19]
Rick Andrews
Seven. Amazing. And then if this is a group of people who've done Zimbabwe before, I'll often play that game. And when people say the answers that are wrong, even experience surprises, you can see their face going like, this is so stupid. Like shark. What am I saying? But then I'm like, okay, now just do some scenes with that as the start where it's like, so what brings you to the doctor Day? I think I had too many sharp edges. I had a whole bowl this morning. It's not going down well. You know, it's like when you're saying the wrong answer, your brain still kind of goes like. And then if someone else just takes that and is like, actually, I love that. I think that's brilliant. I want to watch the Olympic sport that's skating with jumps. It's not figure skating, it's speed skating with jumps. It's like ice hurdles, you know?
- [30:00]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
Yeah.
- [30:00]
Rick Andrews
Like taking the wrong thing and like figuring out, well, why could that be great Is like such a good creative muscle. And that's where a lot of like actual solutions come from. Is not like, when I'm running brainstorm sessions, it's exceedingly rare that the favorite idea by the end of the session started as someone saying something very safe and bland and ass covering. And then people rift that into innovativeness instead. It starts as someone saying something that is stupid, that is not practical and is maybe even actually literally a joke. And then it's. But it's got this kernel to it. And then someone else is like, yeah, we can't do that. But like, oh, what about that? With this way, you know, and you're actually like working it into practicality. Right.
- [30:36]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
I think if there's some reason why
- [30:37]
Chris Duffy
it can't be the obvious answer or
- [30:39]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
like the 10% close to the obvious answer isn't right.
- [30:43]
Chris Duffy
That's where people struggle.
- [30:45]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
Because even for me, right just there, like couldn't be lower stakes.
- [30:49]
Chris Duffy
It. It is uncomfortable to say things that
- [30:51]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
are wrong and different and weird. And I love that that game just like builds the muscle of it where in the lowest stakes way it's just like, okay, I'm just. I have to Say something. The only unacceptable answer is nothing. The only thing that is not right is if I stop and wait until I can think of something that is quote unquote correct. That's the only way to be wrong.
- [31:10]
Rick Andrews
It's about trying to get the right answer together, you know, like, like, like I'm trying to read your reality and like, being wrong is fun and fine if, if I'm genuinely doing it. I was having a class this summer and this, I don't know, kind of a middle aged American guy, I think, I can't remember now, someone started a scene and was like, you know, basically doing Speed, you know, the movie. And they were like, I can't drive the bus below 50 miles an hour. It's going to explode. And the other person, I think it just moved from like Taiwan or Singapore. Like they've been in the country like three months. They were 23. They have not seen the 90s action movie Speed. They were just like, slow down, you're hurting my tummy. It was such a much funnier scene being like, there is no bomb, actually. It's just like the bus driver is crazy and he's making everybody car sick. And it was like, oh yeah, we met in this middle space between both people's associations. So it's actually not even knowing the reference. It's just like, I'm taking the text of what you gave me. I'm making my best interpretation of it. And actually both people had more fun in the new third scene that was created out of both of their ideas than either one of them would have had if the scene had just gone exactly like each of them was expecting. Does it make sense? I think that's like why we're trying to. Why do we get together to be creative? Why do we do brainstorm sessions with people? Why do we like, riff? It's because there's this kind of like, kind of a weird metaphor, but it's like a gene pool of ideas. If it's just me riffing with myself, it's like, I'm not getting enough genetic diversity in the gene pool. It's like zoos got to trade their animals like the other zoos, right? It's like you have different experiences than I do and you have slightly different associations or very different associations than I do. And that's not a weakness, that's a strength. So when I say something, you're going to have this slightly different association to it and then your response is not going to be what I was expecting and vice versa.
- [32:47]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
You've taught A lot of people for many years. Have you ever done a private improv lesson, like, for one person? Is that even possible?
- [32:56]
Chris Duffy
What would it be like?
- [32:57]
Rick Andrews
If people are determined to pay me to do it, I will be grumpy, pungently do it. Sometimes I'll do public speaking training for executive folks, and I'm always trying to get them to do a small group with a couple of their colleagues. And the higher people up are, the more nervous they are about that because it's so much more fun. It opens up the kinds of exercises you can do, and then it feels like, okay, it's not just one person. And then me like, hey, try this. It's like the two or three of us, you need someone to play with. In a lot of these exercises, it's kind of involved in balancing off the other person. And a lot of the benefits that we were talking about earlier, I think, come from that bowling alley bumper gutter thing. So it's kind of like if the goal is to build your creativity and confidence, I think actually doing that by yourself might seem less scary, but it's ultimately less impactful than having at least one other person there who you have to trust and put yourself out there for, because then they are the bumper that helps, and you're their bumper. You're both kind of nudging each other back on the lane in these nice ways.
- [33:53]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
Because of this podcast and because of the book that I wrote, I've interviewed several therapists and psychologists who study anxiety. And one of the things that they all talked about that feels really related here is how one of the most effective treatments for people who are anxious is to just have them test the thing that they're afraid of against reality. Right? Like, you're afraid that if you go out in the street, something terrible will happen. So let's go out in the street for five minutes, just see, like, you're walking on the sidewalk. Did something terrible happen? No. Okay, Maybe that means that, like, it's
- [34:26]
Chris Duffy
a valid fear, but it's not a
- [34:28]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
guaranteed thing that is going to happen. And I think the reason why speaking and playing in a group of people is so helpful is I think it does take that fear that people have of, like, I need to prepare all alone, because otherwise things are going to be disastrous when people hear me speak in public, to just go, like, let's do it. Let's have a disaster in front of some people and see how bad it is. And it ends up not being bad at all. It ends up being fun.
- [34:53]
Rick Andrews
I mean, I wonder if this is. You're not always interviewing people who do a thing that you also are.
- [34:58]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
Sure, yeah, yeah.
- [34:58]
Rick Andrews
Chris is also very humble. He's also extremely good at improv and knows a ton about it. Like, what is Chris before doing improv or comedy or performing? And like now, like, can you really feel this, like, phase shift of like, the way it's kind of like shaped you?
- [35:12]
Chris Duffy
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- [36:10]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
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Chris Duffy
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Chris Duffy
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- [37:28]
Chris Duffy
It's a great question.
- [37:28]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
I mean, my honest answer is that I think so much of who I am is because of doing improv and comedy. And I started doing it when I was young, so I wasn't like a fully formed person yet, you know, I was like in college and still figuring out who I was. So it's hard for me to say, like, this is who I was before, because I think the formation of who I am, it's kind of tied to it. But I think the biggest thing was realizing that the best thing I could do if I wanted to look good was to not make myself look good, but to make the people that I was there with look good. Like that. That was the secret trick is you want everyone to enjoy the show and don't make it so you're the best person in the show. Make it so the other person on stage is the best person in the show. And then they're trying to do the same thing. And through that you all look great. I think that was a really big lesson because I think that's counterintuitive to how I'm wired, where I would like to be regarded as the best person in the show. You know, I'm like, but what if I did this? And then realizing that that actually was always the way to backfire and make yourself look bad is to, you know, try and steal the joke rather than give the joke away. And I mean, not like steal the joke, like steal like a written joke, but like steal the punchline, steal the laugh rather than, like, give the laugh to your partner.
- [38:37]
Rick Andrews
It's that thing of like, am I worried about, like, how I'm looking? You know, it's just, it's not a comfortable space and it is more fun actually, like long term, it is more enjoyable and fun to try to make other people succeed.
- [38:48]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
Yeah.
- [38:48]
Rick Andrews
Because the kinds of things that you all can do as a group when everyone is playing that way, far, far outpace what you can do if everybody is out there trying to get their own individual laughs and make themselves look good. It's like a basketball team where like everybody's shooting. The second they get the ball, it's like they're not going to play very well. You need people to like, cut and drive and set kicks and hustle on defense. And it's funny watching the All Star Game in every sport because it sucks so much. It's all the best people and they don't know how to play with each other. So everyone has maxed out their skill levels. But you kind of need some guy who doesn't make the All Star salary whose only job is to just harass people on defense at the three point line or whatever. These pieces all have to fit together in some way. And in improv, it's not like you have this designated role. But it's. We're all trying to be whatever the show needs that night kind of across the board.
- [39:38]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
Any successful creative person I've talked to or know will tell you that one of the biggest differences between, like, when they actually became successful and before, when they had this idea of what it meant to be a musician or a writer or a comedian or whatever it is that they do an artist. One of the most consistent things that I really just feel like everyone experiences is I thought this was a thing that you do alone or you do just with your little group, like your little band. And then they realized that success is actually being part of a scene, is actually being like supported and challenged and inspired by other people. And so even in the fields that are like.
- [40:14]
Chris Duffy
Like, a novelist is not a team sport. And yet it is such an unbelievably
- [40:19]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
rare novelist whose work is not the product of their relationships and their creative partnerships and the people who inspire them. And so that thing of, like, together we are smarter than we could ever be alone. Oh yeah, I've heard. I think Brian Eno is the one who coined this term Scenius. Like not genius, but Scenius. It's the genius of the scene. And I think that is such a profound creative truth.
- [40:44]
Rick Andrews
I was just talking to someone about music that like pre Internet, any non commercial genre was hyper geographically focused. Like, remember like all the grunge bands came out of Seattle, right? And like Most of the 80s thrash metal bands were like, from San Francisco. I'm a metalhead, so this is most of my knowledge. But like, of the, like top 10, like seminal 80s death metal bands, like all 10 of them are either from Tampa Bay, Florida or Birmingham, England. It's so random because it's kind of like you could not hear like guttural death metal on the radio. Like you could only see it at a show or someone played it for you. So it was like there was a band in Tampa Bay and like they were. They figured the thing out and then people watching and they were like, let's try something like that. And they were all. It was this kind of collective thing. And when you go to write a novel, you sit down by yourself, but you are also in conversation with all of the books that you have ever read and all of the knowledge that's been passed to you and all of your experiences all kind of rattling around in there. And yeah, it is like being able to see and watch people do it is itself kind of part of the Scenius and part of the Conversation about it.
- [41:45]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
Okay, before we go, is there another exercise or improv activity that you like that we could do with just the two of us?
- [41:53]
Rick Andrews
Do you want to do a little fortunately, unfortunately, there's a really simple one that will play pretty well on audio or video.
- [41:58]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
Great. Yeah. Explain it.
- [42:00]
Rick Andrews
Okay. This is like a warmup game. It's not like too big deep of a game, but it's really just simple, fun warmup for the managing uncertainty thing. So this is a game that anybody can do. They don't have to practice or done improv. So feel free to play this at home. We're going to make a story together and we're going to build it one sentence at a time. So I'll give the first sentence and then every other sentence after that is going to alternate either beginning with the phrase fortunately or unfortunately. So if I said I went to the pet store to get a puppy, then the next. Then you would say, like, unfortunately, the pet store only had lizards. And then I would say, like, fortunately, I'm a huge lizard fan. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Unfortunately, the only lizard left was a komodo dragon. Fortunately, I've got a huge yard, etc. Etc. Would you like to be fortunately or unfortunately?
- [42:45]
Chris Duffy
I'll be fortunately.
- [42:46]
Rick Andrews
So I'll start with a bit of a negative news. I was walking to the train and I tripped on the curb.
- [42:53]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
Fortunately, you're going to get a huge class action settlement.
- [42:56]
Rick Andrews
Yeah, unfortunately, I just can't stand lawyers. I really don't have it in me to just deal with being in court.
- [43:04]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
Fortunately, your lawyer also hates other lawyers.
- [43:08]
Rick Andrews
Yeah, unfortunately, my lawyer is my ex, and it's just been really tense doing these. Filing the paperwork.
- [43:15]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
Fortunately, this presents an incredible opportunity for you two to sort through all of the issues that drove you apart in your relationship.
- [43:23]
Rick Andrews
Unfortunately, I'm also remembering why we broke up.
- [43:28]
Chris Duffy
Fortunately, she's really starting to see that
- [43:35]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
you weren't as bad as she had made you out to be.
- [43:37]
Rick Andrews
Unfortunately, she's already fallen madly in love with Dale, who is her new partner.
- [43:43]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
Fortunately, Dale seems like a cool guy.
- [43:45]
Rick Andrews
Unfortunately, he doesn't like me at all.
- [43:48]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
Fortunately, Dale is teaching you about setting clear boundaries, a lesson you needed to learn.
- [43:54]
Rick Andrews
Unfortunately, I am a slow learner. Awesome. Great. Yay. Yay. It's a super silly game, and it's, like, fun in that it always goes a direction that is literally impossible to predict from the first sentence. I did this a while ago, and the first sentence was I'm walking into. You're walking into a restaurant for a first date. And then very it's a group of like 20 people. And the very first person said, unfortunately, I had a heart attack and died in the restaurant. And I could feel the whole group go like, what are we going to do now? And the next person was like, fortunately, I became a ghost, a friendly ghost who haunted the restaurant and helped people have good dates. And this whole story became about, like, how we were, like, helping other people on their dates as a ghost. And it was like the thing that feels like you've quote, unquote, like, ruined it or like that's a mistake actually turns out sometimes to be the best part of the idea that is the memorable portion of it.
- [44:40]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
I love that the thing that you think is the disaster might turn out to be the greatest gift of all. Well, Rick Andrews, thank you so much for being on the podcast. It's always a pleasure to talk to you and this was no exception.
- [44:49]
Rick Andrews
Thanks, man. And can I say, I'm sure listeners who don't know you might wonder, gosh, he seems like a really nice guy, but, you know, sometimes in real life, people actually jerks. And I just want to confirm for everybody that Chris is the actual nicest person, one of the nicest people I know on the planet Earth.
- [45:01]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
Oh, that's so nice. I thought you were going to go for the cheap punchline and say he's a monster.
- [45:05]
Rick Andrews
But I appreciate that you don't like, you're so lovely in every. Everybody who knows you feels the same way. Thanks, man. Thank you so much for having me on. I appreciate it.
- [45:14]
Chris Duffy
That is it for today's episode of how to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to our guest, Rick Andrews. You can find him online@rickandrewsimprov.com I am your host, Chris Duffy, and my new book Humor Me is out now. You can find out more about my book and all my other projects@chrisduffycomedy.com how to be a Better Human is put together by a group of Zip Zap Zops. On the TED side, I'm getting yes and Ed by Daniela Valorezzo, Banban Chang, Michelle Quint, Chloe Cha Cha Brooks, Valentina Bohanini, Lainey Lot Tanzika, Sung Mani Vong,
- [45:42]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
Antonio Ley and Joseph de Bruyne.
- [45:44]
Chris Duffy
Ryan Lash edits the video and picks the perfect moment to black out each scene, and Matias Salas checks the facts to make sure we are not inventing
- [45:51]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
our sources or statistics.
- [45:53]
Chris Duffy
On the PRX side, there are the Herald Knight of Audio, Morgan Flannery, Norgill, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzalez, thanks to you for listening. You are the best scene partner I could ever ask for. Please send this episode to someone who you think would enjoy it.
- [46:06]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
Someone who has your back.
- [46:07]
Chris Duffy
We will be back next week with
- [46:10]
Co-host or Interviewer (possibly a producer or fellow comedian)
even more how to Be a Better Human. Until then, don't make any plans, just improvise.
- [46:24]
Chris Duffy
This episode is sponsored by Toyota. Expression shows up in ways we don't always notice. It's not just what we say, it's the choices we make, the things we surround ourselves with, the way we move through the world. Even something like the car you drive can be a form of expression. Toyota's new All Electric Family leans into that idea. The C hr, for example, has a bold, distinctive design, something that stands out a little in a good way, while the BZ and the BZ Woodland each bring their own personality to the table. It's a reminder that the things we use every day don't have to be neutral, they can actually reflect who we are. Learn more@toyota.com the new all electric Family Toyota let's go places with no fees
- [47:06]
Capital One Advertiser
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- [48:12]
Adam Grant
there, it's Adam Grant from ted's Rethinking Podcast and this episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. I get to spend my days studying how people think and what it actually takes to change our minds. It's work I find deeply meaningful. But even in meaningful work, there's still busy work. The admin, the repetitive processes, the invisible load that pulls attention away from what really matters. That's where ServiceNow's AI specialists come in. They don't just tell you what you should do about your busy work, they actually do it. Start to finish, cases closed, requests handled, no extra work for you. To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit ServiceNow.com.