Ep. 381: Creating Cohesive and Functional Spaces with Cullman & Kravis

Summary

Episode Title: Ep. 381: Creating Cohesive and Functional Spaces with Cullman & Kravis

Release Date: October 1, 2024
Hosts: Caroline, Taryn, and Liz from Ballard Designs
Guests: Ellie Coleman and Lee Kavanaugh, Partners at Coleman and Kravis Interiors

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Introduction to Coleman and Kravis Interiors

In this insightful episode of How to Decorate, host Caroline introduces listeners to Ellie Coleman and Lee Kavanaugh, founding partners of the renowned interior design firm, Coleman and Kravis Interiors. Celebrated for their consistent presence on Elle Decor's 80-100 list and their ability to blend traditional elements with vibrant colors and modern art, Ellie and Lee share their expertise and philosophies that have defined their 40-year journey in the design industry.

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Defining the Coleman and Kravis Aesthetic

Ellie and Lee delve into what sets their design approach apart. Lee emphasizes their passion for reflecting clients' interests and the unique location of each home, fostering a collaborative environment with a dynamic team of 15 professionals. He states, “We love the mix of old and new, what we always call the alchemy of old and new… we want to have in every project” ([03:19] Lee Kavanaugh).

Ellie adds that cohesiveness across every room is paramount, ensuring each space is both functional and aesthetically pleasing. “Everything has to be cohesive. The layout, the form, the function, each room… we want everything to look fabulous and feel fabulous to live in” ([03:52] Ellie Coleman).

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Balancing Functionality and Aesthetics

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on the delicate balance between functionality and aesthetics in interior design. Lee articulates the firm's mantra: “We are always overly concerned with function. How does the couple or the family or the single person live in the space? …if you get it to look good but it doesn't function, you've achieved nothing” ([04:14] Lee Kavanaugh).

Ellie reinforces the importance of usable spaces, contrasting modern desirable comfort with outdated, overly formal designs. “No one wants that [fancy, unused living rooms] anymore. Everyone wants to be comfortable and have it look good, but still be used” ([04:33] Ellie Coleman). They discuss how the COVID-19 pandemic underscored the necessity for multifunctional spaces, especially in compact urban apartments where every inch counts ([04:38] Caroline; [04:43] Lee Kavanaugh).

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Collaborative Layout Planning and Client Engagement

Caroline highlights their method of presenting multiple layout options to clients, prompting a discussion on the collaborative decision-making process. Lee shares a memorable anecdote about their early days: “After dinner and a few drinks, we would invariably rearrange their living room… It was such fun” ([05:04] Lee Kavanaugh). This hands-on approach helps clients visualize and appreciate the best floor plans for their needs.

Ellie and Lee emphasize the importance of seeing design elements three-dimensionally, either physically moving furniture or using creative tools to simulate changes. Ellie recounts, “We even moved the whole showroom right in the store… they were looking at us strangely” ([08:37] Caroline; [08:43] Ellie Coleman).

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Innovative Lighting Solutions

Lighting plays a crucial role in their design philosophy. Ellie shares a creative solution for determining light fixture sizes using beach balls to visually gauge proportions: “We hung them from the ceiling… it really illustrated… whether it should be 16 inches round or 24” ([09:42] Ellie Coleman). Lee adds practical tips, such as using rope and ladders to test entrance hall lights, ensuring they complement the room's volume and functionality ([10:32] Lee Kavanaugh).

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Evolving Collaborative Processes

The evolution of their collaborative process is discussed, highlighting how the firm has grown from a duo to a vibrant team of partners. Lee explains, “We have three partners who've been with me more than 20 years each… a true collaboration” ([14:01] Lee Kavanaugh). This shift has enriched their projects, making their work more layered and dynamic.

Ellie underscores the importance of aligning with the client's vision while incorporating the team's diverse ideas. “We all add a little bit of what we would suggest would make it better… we don't want everything to look the same either” ([15:26] Ellie Coleman).

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Integrating Traditional and Contemporary Elements

A key theme is the integration of traditional design principles with contemporary flair. Lee outlines the basics of traditional design—such as symmetry—and the continuous evolution to keep spaces fresh: “Traditional design has to do with the basic rules… we always mix in different threads of thought throughout the house” ([24:29] Lee Kavanaugh). Ellie complements this by discussing the reuse and updating of classic furnishings: “You don’t need to throw away everything… change the upholstery or add crazy pillows” ([27:09] Ellie Coleman).

They both agree that mixing old and new elements prevents spaces from feeling either dated or sterile. Lee states, “Everything should not be of the same vocabulary… the original combination of old and new keeps our work young” ([27:56] Lee Kavanaugh).

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Color Cohesion and Palette Planning

Color plays a vital role in their design process. Lee describes using color charts to ensure a harmonious flow throughout the home: “Color can't be random… you pick up different color strands from that carpet” ([32:10] Lee Kavanaugh). Ellie adds practical tips for integrating color without overwhelming the space, such as using accessories or subtle pops of color: “It doesn’t have to be massive… little pops of color” ([33:17] Ellie Coleman).

Both designers note a shift towards more vibrant and diverse color palettes, moving away from subdued tones like beige and gray. Ellie highlights the resurgence of colors like green, now referred to as "glazed," adding a fresh twist to traditional palettes ([34:52] Ellie Coleman).

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Investing in Classic, Versatile Pieces

The conversation transitions to the importance of investing in classic, versatile furniture pieces that endure changing tastes. Ellie shares her experiences with early design choices, emphasizing the value of timeless pieces: “Do classic sofa styles… you can change the fabric or change the pillow” ([38:19] Ellie Coleman). Lee echoes this sentiment, advising against trendy items for large furniture: “For the large pieces, try to stay classic because you're not going to fall out of love with them” ([37:46] Lee Kavanaugh).

They advocate for repurposing beloved items and focusing on quality in substantial investments, ensuring longevity and adaptability in home decor.

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Listener's Decorating Dilemma: Donna's Dining Room

Towards the episode's conclusion, Ellie and Lee tackle a listener's query from Donna, who seeks advice on harmonizing her dining room's eclectic elements. Donna describes her space: a walnut live-edge dining table with a clear resin finish, a wool beige rug with large loops, black metal chairs in a berry color, a fuchsia accent wall, a brass chandelier with white shades, and a gray stone wall.

Ellie offers creative solutions, suggesting bold paint choices or integrating accessories that echo the existing colors: “Paint the walls the fuchsia color of the chairs… use accessories like glass vases or a big bowl in fuchsia” ([40:04] Ellie Coleman). Lee recommends practical fixes like adding plastic sabots to metal chair legs to prevent slipping on the rug: “Use the plastic ones… they do make a plastic. It’s almost like a little sabot” ([42:45] Lee Kavanaugh).

Both designers encourage embracing bold choices while ensuring cohesion, reassuring Donna that her design is on the right track and providing actionable tips to enhance her space.

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Conclusion and Resources

As the episode wraps up, Ellie and Lee promote their latest book, Coleman and Kravis Interiors, available on Amazon, local bookstores, and Target. They invite listeners to follow them on Instagram (@CKDesign) and visit their website for more inspiration and insights.

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Key Takeaways:

• Cohesive Design: Ensuring every room aligns in layout, function, and aesthetics.
• Functional Aesthetics: Prioritizing usability alongside visual appeal.
• Collaborative Process: Engaging clients and team members to refine design solutions.
• Blend of Old and New: Integrating traditional elements with contemporary touches to keep spaces timeless yet fresh.
• Color Coordination: Using color charts and thoughtful palette planning to achieve harmony.
• Invest in Classics: Choosing versatile, timeless furniture pieces for long-term satisfaction.
• Practical Solutions: Offering actionable advice for common decorating challenges.

Notable Quotes:

• “We love the mix of old and new, what we always call the alchemy of old and new… we want to have in every project.” — Lee Kavanaugh ([03:19])
• “Everything has to be cohesive. The layout, the form, the function, each room… we want everything to look fabulous and feel fabulous to live in.” — Ellie Coleman ([03:52])
• “If you get it to look good but it doesn’t function, you’ve achieved nothing.” — Lee Kavanaugh ([04:14])
• “Traditional design has to do with the basic rules… we always mix in different threads of thought throughout the house.” — Lee Kavanaugh ([24:29])
• “Invest in classic sofa styles… you can change the fabric or change the pillow.” — Ellie Coleman ([38:19])

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For more detailed insights and to explore Coleman and Kravis Interiors' design philosophies, listeners are encouraged to read their book, follow their social media, and visit their website.

Happy decorating!

Transcript

[Caroline]

Welcome to how to Decorate from Ballard Designs, a weekly podcast all about the trials and triumphs of decorating and redecorating your home. I'm Caroline. I'm on the marketing team. And I'm Taryn and I'm a product designer.

[Liz]

I'm Liz. I head up the creative team. We're your hosts.

[Caroline]

Join the expert team at Ballard Designs for tips, tricks and tales from interior designers, stylists, and other talents in the design world. Plus, we'll answer your decorating dilemmas at the end of each episode.

[Liz]

We love answering your questions, so don't forget to email [e-mail] now on with the show.

[Caroline]

Our guests today are Ellie Coleman and Lee Kavanaugh. Ellie and Lee are both partners at the esteemed interior design firm Coleman and Kravis. Ellie is the founding partner of the firm and you may remember her from episode 149. Back in 2020, we discussed their book From Classic to Contemporary. And today we're going to discuss Coleman and Kravis most recent book, Coleman and Kravis Interiors. The firm is consistently on the 8100 list, Elle Decor's A list. And they're known for creating fresh, traditional spaces infused with vibrant color and modern art. And their latest book, Ellie, Lee and their partners provide a masterclass in 21st century decorating. From luxurious Manhattan apartments to historic residents overlooking Long Island Sound. Ellie and Lee, welcome to the show.

[Ellie Coleman]

Thanks so much.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

Thank you.

[Caroline]

Love having you. And I loved getting to go through your book. There's such a variety of, you know, as I mentioned in the introduction, Manhattan apartments, country homes, waterfront and townhouses and just everything in between and a beautiful, I guess, sort of array of clients, you know, different tastes, different colors. And I really enjoyed getting to see the thread, sort of, I guess, what Coleman and Kravis brings to it. You know, there's sheen and matte. I loved seeing that throughout your floor plans, your play on color, the rugs, so many unique details. And I was wondering if you could just start by kind of sharing with any of our listeners who maybe aren't familiar with your work, what you see as the goal of each room and each of your client projects. And I guess what makes the Coleman and Kravis aesthetic unique?

[Lee Kavanaugh]

Well, I would start by saying is that we are really passionate about interior design and also passionate about reflecting both the client's interests and also the location of the home and working collaboratively within the office. We're 15 people and collaboratively with all the people that you, that you come in contact with the architects, the landscape architects, the painters, the upholsterers. The cast of characters is always changing. And that's really what makes it so exciting. So I think that's the main thread. I would also say that we love the mix of old and new, what we always call the alchemy of old and new. We don't want to be only old things, and we don't want to be only new things. For only old things, designs would start to look a little dated and grandma like. And if we only do new things, it misses the soul. So that we want to have in every project. And also we love the idea of unexpected combinations of items. And that makes you look at them afresh.

[Ellie Coleman]

Right. But I also think fundamentally looking at each project, everyone. Another common thread is everything has to be cohesive. The layout, the form, the function, each room. No matter if it's a beach house, country house in the city, you know, we want every room to use and to be comfortable and to work for each family or each couple or whoever's living there. Really well, we want everything to look fabulous. It's also important for it to feel and be fabulous, you know, to live in.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

And I think that's something that's very important, that we really are always overly concerned with function. How does the couple or the family or the single person live in the space? And that's really almost more important than the looks, because if you get it to look good but it doesn't function, you've achieved nothing. So that's one of our big mantras. And then right.

[Ellie Coleman]

In the old days with the touch me not living rooms, you know, everything was fancy, you couldn't go in it. And nobody wants that. No one wants that anymore. I mean, everyone wants to be comfortable and, you know, have it look good, but still be used. Because, you know, with the way houses and apartments are, we need every space.

[Caroline]

I feel like Covid probably really brought home that idea that you really need.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

It every inch because everything had to.

[Caroline]

Multitasking.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

Yeah, multitask. I mean, people, particularly in New York City apartments, where spaces at such a premium. So every single space in the house had to accommodate more than one function. Whether it was a kitchen that also became a homework center or a sick bay or anything. I mean, you name it and we had to layer it upon the design.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

Oh, thank you. You know what I just asked? I left the new book in the other room, so I didn't know if you're going to refer to anything. Sorry, I've got it here.

[Caroline]

Well, I left in the, in the book how you mentioned that you design or you, you mock up two to three layouts and then you present those to the client. And it sounds like you kind of debate with the client like this is how this would function and how does this work? Can you kind of explain that with, to our listeners and why you might make certain decisions or change the layout based on their feedback?

[Ellie Coleman]

Again, it kind of goes along with how the flow of a home works. So if we start with a living room, for example, you really want to look at, you know, what, what is that room being used for? Is it for formal entertaining or do you have a TV in there? So you have to just look at, you know, how would people sit in different groupings comfortably? Like, it's really about how you're living there. So maybe you want to have one sofa with two chairs next to it. So it kind of, you could create a space for conversation or create a space for watching TV or kind of all of the above. But you want people to be able to kind of move through a room. You know, you don't want to walk into the back of a sofa, for example, and have it be blocking your passageway. You just, it's, it really should, should function, you know, in terms of scale and how big the pieces are and really what it's being used for, if that makes sense.

[Caroline]

Do you think that's an exercise people could do themselves? You know, if someone's trying to rework their own living room, I think they.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

Should buy the book and read the book.

[Caroline]

Well, you know, of course they'll get.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

A list, of course.

[Caroline]

But I mean, you know, coming up with some different layouts and figuring out which one.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

Well, I have to tell you a funny story. When we started in business, this is so funny, my late partner and I would go to people's house and after dinner and a few drinks, we would invariably rearrange their living room. It was such fun. You know, we'd put the sofa on a different wall. And this is something that if you have a strong partner or husband or kids, you can do that. And I think it's really important to see things three dimensionally, which of course at this point in our careers we can do it without actually moving furniture. But for many people, they need to see it three dimensionally. And there's nothing better than moving your stuff around, taking something from another room as a stand in for another piece that you may want. And that usually explains very clear, clearly to people what the best floor plan is for their Needs. And we've done that in our first book. We did an experiment with four layouts for a living room on Fifth Avenue. And at the end of the day, they appreciated the one that we'd first suggested but had us go through all the moving around. So. Yeah.

[Ellie Coleman]

Yeah. Because for most people, it's very difficult. Oh, no. To imagine seeing, you know, I mean, imagining what a room is going to look like. So when you talk about floor plans or, you know, all of this stuff, if you really take it down to the basics, people can just move their own stuff around. And we've had clients with, you know, big living rooms where no one could. We often would go to the upholsterer and move pieces of furniture around there to kind of say, let's try this, or we've even done it. We did it in West Elm once. Remember that, Ellie? We started moving the whole showroom right in the store.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

I don't think we took our long tapes and we marked out the room and. Yeah.

[Caroline]

What did the other. What did the customers in the showroom think about that? They were like, what's.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

We were nuts.

[Ellie Coleman]

Yeah. They were looking at us strangely. But we're used to that, you know.

[Caroline]

Sure. But I love that as a marketing tool.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

We have a little suggestion for you which often turns out not to be that little.

[Caroline]

Yes, exactly. At a dinner party. You mean.

[Ellie Coleman]

Right. When everyone's had a few drinks. Here, you move the sofa and I'll just move this table. Probably with good friends, you know, not with fancy company. Right. But there's nothing more helpful than seeing anything three dimensionally.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

And we had to teach ourselves how to do that because even, like year two of being in business, one of our New York clients hired us to do his Nantucket home, which wasn't built. So we had to envision in our minds what was the mix of upholstery pieces, wood pieces, and that kind of taught us how to foresee what was going to happen.

[Ellie Coleman]

Also with lighting. I mean, on that note, too, we had this house. We were trying to understand how big we wanted the lights because also, in addition to the floor plan, there's lighting, which, you know, people don't realize it's difficult to know how big of a light you want to get. So our client wanted a big. It was like a globe. And we finally decided we would get a whole bunch of different beach balls, different sizes of beach balls to hold up. So we hung them from the ceiling. And it was such a helpful exercise because it really sort of illustrated, you know, a very Easy way to tell should it be 16 inches round or 24? And it really helped the client to be there and just see. And then they got all these beach balls and their kids were so happy.

[Caroline]

That is genius. That is genius.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

Well, my other favorite thing in that regard is the use of garbage containers, because when you're doing entrance hall lights, you know, which are lanterns, very often there's a big question, again, how big to make them and how low to hang them? Did they talk to the whole volume of the stair holder? Are they more upstairs or more downstairs? And so we've become really passionate about getting rope out and ladders and trying on these various sizes of lantern. So that's another tip.

[Ellie Coleman]

You think it's all, yeah, all glamorous, but that's. It's not all glamour. You know, it's hanging garbage cans is. You know, people have this idea that decorating is so glamorous, but we do a lot with garbage cans. We mock up dining room tables, sizes with plywood.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

Oh, mock up dining room. So important. And also having the right size chair next to it. So, you know, if you can get two, for example, on a rectangular table, if you can get two people at each end, and the trick is what happens with the person at the right angle? Can they each get a salad plate and at least three different glasses, water, red wine, white wine. So all of that we've mocked up over the years and have some certain dimensions that we keep sacred in the office, like what will work and whatnot. But we often do the three dimensional just to help clients understand why we got to whatever the number is that we're at.

[Caroline]

That's so smart and I think so important for people to, you know, kind of take or a great takeaway trying it out, you know, cre come up with a, with something that could be a sort of a lookalike and make sure you get the right size because, you know, I think designers on the show are always emphasizing measurement and scale is crucial. And if you can see it, then you're going to be more likely to make the right choice.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

And I think that's the big problem with Internet shopping, because while there are some wonderful things on the Internet, understanding the scale from piece to piece is very difficult for a non professional. And even for us sometimes there's nothing more. Seeing something concretely is definitely a gift.

[Ellie Coleman]

The shopping experience when you don't know how big something is. And photos can be so misleading. So we've had a lot of experiences with that where it looks tiny, but you get it and it doesn't fit through the front door is, you know, something you want to steer clear of.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

The width of the front door is critical.

[Caroline]

You mentioned, Ellie, that. That there are certain things that are sort of your. Your time tested, you know, guidelines or measurements, that kind of thing. But I did really enjoy reading in the book about how things were maybe when Coleman and Kravis first started 40 years ago, and then how you've evolved. And I really enj kind of hearing how the firm has changed and about your collaborative process especially. Can you kind of share with our listeners, you know, how your team sort of presents designs and offers feedback and suggestions collaboratively? I found that to be so interesting.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

Well, thank you. Our process has really changed. When we started, Hedy, my late partner and I would sit at the desk and an assistant or two would literally just take down what we said, and there was no discussion. We divined X, Y and Z. Now I have three partners who've been with me more than 20 years each. And so they've been through all the processes of how we got to where we are today. And we couldn't do our work without a true collaboration. And we also try to get the younger people on every team to do more than just do lampshades. We'd like them to come up with a solution, and then we'll work together to critique it. So I think that's been very, very, very helpful. I mean, but at the end of the day, you can't be in our business and not like change. I mean, I love change. I love growing. If not, I wouldn't still be doing this after 40 years. It's very exciting, and I think that our work is much more interesting and much more layered today, thanks to the. My three partners and all everybody else at the. At the firm. So it's. It's a. It's a different way of doing business, which I think is better. Way better.

[Caroline]

I think we struggle with that, too, a little bit over at Ballard because, you know, you want to design a subjective. There's no right answer. You want everyone to chime in, but then you kind of want to avoid, like, design by committee. Right. Because you need a cohesive vision.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

You have to have a mommy. Yeah.

[Ellie Coleman]

Yeah. You know, you always want to it to be the client's vision. So it's difficult if, you know, we all have an idea and then the client may have some crazy idea, but we don't want to, you know, dissuade anyone or make anyone feel bad. We kind of want to all reach conclusions. So we all add a little bit of what we would suggest would make it better. Because at the end of the day, we don't want everything to look the same either.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

Right. And I think it's a long learning process with the client. I mean, we start out and we come up with a basic idea for the projects based on what they've liked in our books or friends of theirs home that they've seen. But then at the end of the day, I always say we. It's a journey. It's a journey to find out what works for them, where you're going. And we have certain benchmarks. Lee, tell them about the. The Love It, Hate it meeting.

[Ellie Coleman]

The possibilities are endless. But, you know, if someone comes to us, we kind of, you know, we. We like to look at images, we look at our books, we look at different pictures just to see kind of, you know, what direction they're going, if the house, is it on the beach, is it in a city, you know, that sort of thing. And so that's where we kind of start just to get a feeling for what they want. And then, because there's so much out there, I mean, just in the world of carpets, fabrics, Textiles. I mean, it's. It's unbelievable. So to start, we. We have a meeting. We call. We call it. We love it. Do you love it or you hate it? Because we have found that if you hate something, it's equally as important to know what that is as. As much as we want to know what you love. So we take piles of fabrics and carpets and everything, and then we sort through it and we throw the hate it on the floor and we keep the lovettes, and then we work from there. So it's kind of fun because, you know, we have clients be like, this is disgusting. I hate plaid. I hate green. You know, actually, Ellie, we had that one meeting where we had a client, they hated everything. And we thought it was the worst meeting we ever had. Do you remember this?

[Lee Kavanaugh]

The client, she said, the Canada.

[Ellie Coleman]

The project in Canada. And she said, I hate blue.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

I don't like it.

[Ellie Coleman]

And we were like, oh, my God, it was the worst meeting we ever had. We couldn't imagine what happened. And for some reason, she just had an off day. And then we met again, and she loved everything. She loved green, she loved blue. And she ended up being such a great client, such an amazing project, and still a great friend of ours. And it was just. It was so interesting because it is overwhelming. I think she just. It was like so Much that she couldn't really. She didn't know what she wanted. And then we all came together, and we laugh about it today still.

[Caroline]

What do you think changed in between your first and second meeting? You know, was it just a bad mood or a bad day?

[Lee Kavanaugh]

I think it's getting to know you. To quote the King and I, it's. It is a process of us understanding them and them understanding us, and also knowing that we don't have a signature style. We're really chameleons. Our idea is to get into the client's head and come up with the best version of themselves. And after that trust is established, you can be honest and say, grandma's chair just doesn't make it in this design. And then they say goodbye to grandma's chair. But.

[Ellie Coleman]

But we don't say that until the end. Yeah, we. We don't want to, like, feel bad. Yeah. Because they get educated. You know, once you. You start down this. This journey, you. You see what's out there, you see all the possibilities, and you really kind of. You educate each other with either the style or the pieces. And we like for the client to come around and say, oh, grandma's chair is horrible, and I can't put it in my house.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

But I think we've also learned so much for the clients. For example, when we started, our palette was very much dependent on traditional things like potter, like Delft pottery, Chinese pottery, Oriental carpets. And then we had the first client who said that they loved purple. Well, we hadn't really used purple until that point. Now, like, the sky's the limit.

[Ellie Coleman]

Remember? You didn't like purple?

[Lee Kavanaugh]

Well, sorry.

[Ellie Coleman]

It was like, purple was not allowed.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

But now I. Yeah, but now that was real. But now I think because we've worked with so many different people, there's nothing that we can embrace in a design. Right. That's the fun part.

[Caroline]

I was just thinking of that lavender couch in the Manhattan.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

Oh, don't you love that? The lavender ceilings, the chinoise. That's a client. We've done so pretty. Thank you. We've done, like, five projects for that client, so it's really very meaningful for me.

[Ellie Coleman]

You know what's fun about that is that you can see that she has fun with it. Like, there are so many fun things in that project. Like, you could tell that she has a fun personality with the purple and the pops of fun things, and it's always a pleasure to work with her. Right. And you can see it in her homes.

[Caroline]

Right. And maybe having a great, great partner, like yourselves allows her to take some more risks and show even her personality even more. I loved how in the, in the book you kind of talk about how you're always thinking like decades ahead, you know, how can we design this house to where it's going to function now, but function when they have grandkids that they may not even have thought about yet. Can you kind of talk us through that? What are some concrete examp of how.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

You might, you know, I'll give you a funny example. We're doing a apartment right now for a young couple, I mean, and they refuse to have king queen size beds in any of the kids rooms because they want to discourage hanky panky. And the truth is I've been telling them you can't do these 54 inch beds because people grow up so quickly and it's just going to be four or five years before they are in college and they are going to bring home their boyfriends or girlfriends and what's the, you know, beds are very expensive today. What's the point of like thinking in just this moment, right? So that's kind of a disagreement that we're still working on because she's intent on not having any sex in her apartment.

[Caroline]

So that is so funny.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

And then we had a whole formula about the width of a crib is 54 inches. And what do you do when you don't have a crib anymore in the room? So we try to do have instead of the crib to be able to slot in a desk which would then work as the child gets older for their homework situation. And then often we put the cribs between two towers of bookcases and cabinets. And so while the bookcases originally had like baby books and toys, now they're going to have their schoolwork. So that's the kind of thing we're always, always thinking of. When we do dressing rooms now for people who are about to have grandchildren, we always suggest that they put a day bed in it because when the grandkids first come to visit they don't want to sleep down the hall in their parents old room and they don't want to sleep in another room. They want to sleep part of where the grandparents are. So there's a million little examples like that that also help us.

[Ellie Coleman]

Bunk rooms are a big thing.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

Bunk rooms, yes, very important.

[Ellie Coleman]

So we had one, we were doing it for the family with the kids and then the kids got old. But then like oh well we should still have it because the grandkids could always come back you know, it's sort of like even though their kids get older, older, it's a fun room. It was like a family room, you know, that kind of thing, because you always have it. And then, you know, the kids, the grandkids always love to have a fun, you know, a built in sort of play space like that. Even teenagers, even, you know, the kids in college like to come back sometimes with their friends. So it's fun to plan. You know, it doesn't always have to be just for the little babies. It's like it could be for the teenage kids and that sort of thing, which is fun.

[Caroline]

Yeah, you kind of forget that the difference between having, like, kids and then grandkids, it's not that far. I mean, we were joking recently that, you know, you're like, oh, I just bought that chair when really it was like, 10 years ago. But that 10 years goes by so fast that, you know, before you know it, you do have grandkids.

[Liz]

Okay, so I want to talk about traditional design today. You have a great line in your book about how traditional interiors call us to balance yesterday, today, and tomorrow that feel fresh and lively and modern while respecting history. I was wondering if you can expand on that a little bit and talk a little bit about how you think about traditional design.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

Well, I would say the traditional design has to do with the basic rules, like symmetry. Very important. And the idea that making the traditional look more young is something that evolves all the time. You can't say. I mean, we've been using, for example, contemporary art with traditional furnishings since day one here. But that's not all we do. Like, for example, now we like to mix in every room and throughout the house because it's very important that threads of thought go through the whole house. There's nothing worse than one room saying one thing and another room saying another thing. So, for example, it may not even be the art. It may be the idea that you make the lighting fixtures modern. And each time we're trying to find a different recipe, maybe we change the colors. As Lee said, we used to have a very traditional palette, and now, literally, the sky's the limit. It's just whatever turns the client on, and then we work around it.

[Ellie Coleman]

But I. I also think in terms of traditional, like lucky. Luckily, we have a lot of clients that are repeat clients, so. So a project that I started working on when I started here, like, 25 years ago, which is crazy, you know, they wanted to refresh. Just a little refresher, a little facelift, you know, when we Were kids. Yeah. But we didn't have to get rid of everything because, interestingly enough, almost all of the upholstery forms that we use now are still the same forms that we use then. So, like, for example, a paley sofa or a Jean Michel Franc sofa with a square arm. These are. These are still forms that we use. So you don't need to throw away everything. Maybe you change the upholstery, or if the upholstery is all just plain, you get crazy pillows or a crazy coffee table. It's. It's more about mixing it, you know, having the traditional mixed with something new. I don't think we are, you know, throwing everything away and having, you know, like, one big circular sofa in the middle of the room. I mean, that's sort of a little bit out there for us, but we still have a little bit of that traditional there. But like Ellie was saying, you have a crazy light or you have wild lamps, but you're not just throwing it all away. It's like, you know, it's like we were born with this sort of traditional element, and it sort of is still there because we're not so modern that it's. That it's uncomfortable or dated.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

And also we appreciate the workmanship in a lot of these traditional pieces that. I'll give you an example. A lot of people are throwing away what's called brown furniture today. If you put a crazy lamp or a modern sculpture on that piece of brown furniture, it can be just as exciting as a modern table. In fact, maybe more so because of the dialogue between old and new. Everything should not be of the same vocabulary, because there's nothing more deadly it would be if you did it all modern. It looked like you came from a furniture showroom. That's bad. And if you did it all antique, then it looks like one of the antique stores that's closed on Madison Avenue recently. We can't do that either. So it's that hopefully original combination of old and new, which is what keeps our work young.

[Liz]

Yeah. And you also say in the book that you mess it up, which I really appreciate, like, just twisting it that little bit, which is great.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

Well, that was the quote of the client with the purple sofa. And we've done, as I said, so many projects for her. And she always comes in and takes something out or puts something in that doesn't match anything. And she's always. She really should be a designer. She always is. Right. She gets that, what I call the curveball that gives the house more life so that's her quote, even though I it attributed to us.

[Ellie Coleman]

Another great quote. Ellie is another project in the book that we were just talking about earlier about the style. You can speak to the.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

Oh, I love it. Yeah. This is the chapter on the rustic house on the water in Connecticut. It's called A reverence for Craft. What we loved about this is this home is now appearing in Sorry Veranda this month. And it starts with the writer asking the owner, well, a visitor, one of her friends comes to visit and she's. And the friend asks, what style would you call this house? And the owner said, my style. And to me there was no greater, greater compliment that she could give the firm that it was her style. Because that's what we did over the few years that we did that project. And now we're doing a project for them in Jackson Hole, Wyoming. And now it's like autopilot. We each know exactly what the other one thinks. It's really, really, really fun.

[Ellie Coleman]

But it's great because it really is. And when you, when you look at it, you could just see that it's her. And another project in the book. This is interesting. Talking about personalities. We did a. A project with them in the city. And really the husband, it was like his baby, his favorite thing. He was so involved and he wanted red in every single room. Red. Everything had to be red. Everything had to have a stripe. That was what he wanted. So it was challenging for us to say, oh, how are we going to mix this up so that every room is in red? You know, we had to have one had red walls or one had a red chair. But inevitably we had. It was like, find where the stripe is here. And interestingly enough, we did the beach country house with our.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

The chapter is a new look. A new look. Is the chapter at least talking about.

[Ellie Coleman]

Yeah, right. So the wife was really. This was her baby. And she said, I don't want anything red in this house. I want it to be all soft, all blue, all. And they were lovely and they were. They're great together. But it was just so much fun because they were so different and they were like polar opposite homes. It was just a fun, very light hearted, kind of fun art. And we had a great time with both. But it was interesting because, you know, they were both. It was both of their, like, projects. And this was another family, like, for the family, this project in the book too, really, for the children, the grandchildren. So it was a great. Also during COVID But it was a fun project and they were able to.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

Carve out 10 guest rooms in the house, which is amazing that they were able to do this, because now they have three married children with children. And the whole family was there during COVID which was. Which was great.

[Ellie Coleman]

Right? And it happened quickly. It was all of a sudden. Yeah, like, all of a sudden, they had kids. Husbands, wives, grandchildren. Right. It happened, like, boom, Right fast. So they were ready for it.

[Caroline]

You were talking about color, and I was so interested in. There's a section about color, and you mentioned that you use a color chart to track the movement of color throughout the house so that it'll be cohesive. Can you describe this to us? Because I think that could be such a great sort of exercise for people to do in their own homes to really try to take their design to the next level.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

Well, I think the thought is that color can't be random. So you can't have a red room, a green room, a yellow room, a blue room. You have to have elements in the house. It's typically the living room carpet that has multicolored, and then you pick up different color strands from that carpet. And the idea is that you feel a very cohesive, soft transition from room to room. And we can do a chart where we show if the main event, let's say, is yellow in the living room with some reds and greens, then maybe the adjacent room, the library, which may be wood panel, for example, may have a green dominant. But when you walk from room to room, you never feel like it doesn't make sense. That's very important. And you get better pictures that way, too.

[Ellie Coleman]

Well, you want them to relate. It's like, you can't go from, like, the bright pink room to the black room or have the little pink in the. It's like there's a little yellow on the wall. Put a little yellow in the carpet. You know, it's just something that sort of ties it all together so it's not jarring.

[Caroline]

I love that. And I think that's something that, you know, with a little planning, people can accomplish on their owns. But you just have to kind of have that thought in the beginning and. And tie it through. And it's. It's nice because if you are trying to come up with a color palette for the next room, you kind of already have a jumping off point.

[Ellie Coleman]

It doesn't have to be a whole room. For example, if. If the living room is mainly beige, you could achieve this with, you know, pillows or lamps or accessories, and then do that room by room. Like, it doesn't have to Be, you know, such a major thing as, like all of the walls. It could just be little pops of color if someone was afraid to have color everywhere. So it doesn't have to be a massive overwhelming task, because I know it is for some people, the thought of putting color everywhere.

[Caroline]

Do you find that clients are more interested in color? I do think that, you know, sort of design magazines and where sort of design is right now is color is much more celebrated and omnipresent. I'm wondering if you found that yourself in your own designs.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

Definitely. I think everybody got really, really bored with the beige envelope and the gray envelope. First it was beige, then it was gray, then it was blue. Blue was really big for many years, and we certainly have a lot of blue in the book and in other projects which we didn't photograph. But I think that now there's more diversity, thank goodness, makes the product much more interesting.

[Ellie Coleman]

There's. I see. I mean, we're seeing a lot of greens and yellows and I mean, we.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

Your green is having a comeback.

[Ellie Coleman]

Yes, it's. It is. But yes, it's funny because it always does. And you know, after a while, beige gets kind of boring. I mean, white gets kind of boring. But we're not. We love color and we're happy that it's coming back. They're not even calling it chintz anymore. They're calling glazed. Speaking of green, that's the new name for chintz, so it sounds newer, by the way. That's what I just learned the other day.

[Caroline]

Yeah, I loved. Speaking of green, I loved that green, sort of olive green grass cloth in the. I think it was the Massachusetts waterfront house. And it was such a beautiful foil for the light blue. You know, they. They work together so beautifully. I love, I really loved that project. I've just been thinking recently and we kind of touched on this a little bit about like, good and bad choices maybe I've made in my own decorating and maybe things that I bought early on that I still have and love. And I'm curious if there's anything that either of you have, you know, you acquired early on in your life out of college or, you know, your young life and have kept with you and maybe reimagined or. And things that you would suggest people, you know, shop for that they're always going to, you know, things that are going to have longevity and be really versatile.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

I think if you're really passionately in love with some something, you will always find a place for it. What you're going to do is repurpose it, combine it with something else, change the color, whatever. But I don't find that there's a lot in my own life that I feel out of love with. What about you, Lee?

[Ellie Coleman]

I think in my early years, I definitely. You don't have as refined taste, but. And I find that my taste is, like, always changing. I feel like I had a lot of, like, more curvier leg things. I find that the things that were, I guess, more trendy, I've let go of. But the pieces that are more classic and, you know, not, you know, not so traditional, not so modern, I've held onto. So I think the things that I've gotten rid of were just sort of questionable to begin with. They just weren't. Like, I had a dining table, it was all inlaid and it had these legs, but it was kind of like fake inlay. I don't know. It was terrible. But I've learned it's like, you know, things like a dining table you want to, you know, spend a little more on. It's like, because it was, like, very fake, and I thought it was beautiful, and it was terrible. But that was a long, long time ago. But it's funny, my kids, they want to change their room every year. Yeah. Like, the kids are always changing. Like the young kids, teenagers that I feel like changes every year. And then. So you do, like, the reasonably priced things, because they always want to change.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

And maybe. Maybe we should say that for the large pieces, try to stay classic because you're not going to fall out of love with them. Don't get the trendy piece so that if you do a. A dining room table that may be boring onto itself, like a mahogany table with a pedestal base, that's fine. But you can always put really exciting, unusual accessories on it. But you don't want to throw out the large pieces. Those are the ones to really be careful about. The same for the sofa styles. Do classic sofa styles, right?

[Ellie Coleman]

Because they always are in, and you just can change the fabric or change the pillow. So that was my dining table lesson, because the big piece is, you know, if you invest and it's nice, it's beautiful, you. You always have it, and you just work around it.

[Caroline]

I think everybody wants to buy things that they're going to have for a long time. But sometimes, to your point, Lee, it's hard to know what that is. It's easy to get sort of trapped into something trendy because you're just.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

That's why they need decorators to tell them this.

[Caroline]

Is true.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

Long term or short term investment.

[Ellie Coleman]

Right, right. That's why the kids rooms, I always say, are more short term because they're always changing their. But we call that the back of the house.

[Caroline]

And you're, you're, you're, you give them.

[Ellie Coleman]

Free rent, but we call it the back of the house where you know, you're not investing as much money with the kids things. So it's okay if they, you know, break it or change it.

[Caroline]

Donna writes. Hi, ladies. My name is Donna. I've been decorating my dining room for some time now. I have a custom made walnut live edge with clear resin dining table. But I need a rug. I purchased a wool beige rug. However, I was disappointed to see the loops were large, not smooth enough for the chairs. The chairs I ordered are black metal, no arms that are a berry color. For that pop of color, I have an island pick on the wall with the color fuchsia. My chandelier is brass with white shades to soften it up. And I have a gray color stone wall in the dining room. Initially I was going with the coastal earthy vibe. Can you please give me some advice? Even a paint color that could tie it all together. Thank you, Donna. All right. She sent us some photos. What do you two ladies think?

[Ellie Coleman]

First of all, I love the rug. I mean the room, it's like each piece is great and we see how she wants to tie it together. I think there are a couple of ways that we might recommend what to do here. Like if she was feeling really bold, she could paint the walls the fuchsia color of the chairs. I think what we're, what we want to see is we want to see that color more. So it, it gets tied together, but could be really fun and exciting to have that color paint. And even if you take a fabric, that chair fabric to a Genovic or a Benjamin Moore, they can match that color exactly, which is pretty cool. Any paint store, Benjamin Moore does color matching, so they could, that would be. I don't know if she would be confident enough to have that bright wall, but we thought that would be really fun. Or a wall covering that had, you know, something with that color in it so it would sort of tie together. It's like you want to see it again because it's such a fun, bright, cheerful splash of color. But if that felt overwhelming, even things like accessories, like there was a collection of things on the dining table like glass vases or a big bowl that was the fuchsia or something that just sort of carried it somewhere Else other than just the chairs, that would be something that could be very fun and kind of tie it all together. And with the chairs, because we have had this before with metal chairs and a carpet, it's difficult to slide any kind of metal foot like that. But they have these. There's a couple of different plastic little feet you can put on chairs like this. You know, the ones you tap onto the bottom. The plastic ones are better with wood, but they do make a plastic. It's almost like a little sabot where it just goes right on the bottom of the chair and should definitely help with sliding back and forth on that type of a carpet. She could try that as a. As a cost effective remedy to start with instead of getting a whole new rug. Yeah.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

It'd be ashamed to throw out the carpet because the carpet is graphic. It is really interesting with the curvilinear, organic lines of the table. So I think you could do something, as Lee is suggesting, either the walls. If you do something with the walls and then just these sabots for the chairs, and if the carpet is degraded in a few years, you're not adding good money after bad. You're going to the next event in the room. I think that's more cost effective.

[Ellie Coleman]

Yeah, it just needs that little thing to tie it together. Yeah. Just a little oomph to bring it. But yeah, we thought the walls would be the go.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

Something that's got the burgundy repeated. I mean, I think that's it. If she were really adventurous, she could paint the ceiling in the burgundy.

[Ellie Coleman]

Or the wallpaper. The wallpaper Atmosphere. Ceiling. Yeah. Yes, that too.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

Yeah. Or the ceiling could. The wallpaper. The wallpaper could be three colors, and the ceiling could be even silver. I mean, there's so many things you can do. But as Lee said, you have to repeat the burgundy, and you have to do something in the room that repeats the colors.

[Caroline]

It sounds like she just needs to go a little further. Just like, take it a little further and not be afraid. Yeah.

[Ellie Coleman]

No, but it's scary. It's very overwhelming. I mean, we get it. People get overwhelmed. It's a lot. But she's on the right track. It looks good. She's almost there.

[Caroline]

Yeah. It's always scary in the. In between when you're not fully there, but you're like halfway there and it's not fully realized yet.

[Ellie Coleman]

That's another scary thing. And we do find this. Yes. But people. When we find this a lot. Just a little quick thing. When people aren't used to seeing something, we get this with. Well, with clients, too, and they're so freaked out by something new or if it's a very dramatic change or if it's a whole new room. And I've had, in my experience, a lot of clients be like, oh, my God, I just don't like it. I just. I don't know. And I'm like, just live with it. Just get used to it. And it happens more often than not that there just. It's just the change. A lot of people aren't used to seeing new things or something very different. So thank goodness it's been, oh, I love it now. You know, it's. It just. It's hard to see something brand new.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

It's also the curse of not seeing everything together, which happens when you're doing it on your own. We really, really prefer to have everything in storage and then install a room altogether because then everything makes sense. In dribs and drabs, it doesn't make sense at all. Usually, as Lee said, sure, you have.

[Caroline]

To be really focused to execute it, not get scared halfway. Yeah, that makes sense.

[Ellie Coleman]

So she could be kind of paralyzed right now looking at it, you know, like, what have I done? But she's almost there.

[Caroline]

Good luck, Donna. Thank you for writing in. Lee and Ellie have given you a little bit of the stamp of approval. Keep going. Don't stop. Well, thank you both so much. Really, really loved your book, Coleman and Kravis Interiors. And can you tell everyone where they can find you and follow you?

[Lee Kavanaugh]

We have our Instagram account, CK Design, and the book is already available on Amazon or you can order it from your local bookstore.

[Ellie Coleman]

Well, I just saw it on Target too. Yep, it's pre order, but yeah, I.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

Hope they didn't discount it already.

[Ellie Coleman]

No, it was not discounted. Not discounted. You can. I mean, even if you just Google Coleman and Kravis, all of those.

[Lee Kavanaugh]

Yeah, website.

[Caroline]

Yeah, y'all come up.

[Ellie Coleman]

Yep.

[Caroline]

Coleman and Kravis Interiors from Rizzoli. And that's our show. You can find all of the show notes on our blog how2decorate.com podcast to send in a decorating dilemma. Email your questions to podcastallarddesigns.net so we can help you with your space. And of course, be sure to follow us on social media at Ballard Designs.

[Liz]

Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts so you never miss an episode. And please leave us a review. We'd love to hear your feedback.

[Caroline]

Until next time, Happy decorating.