C (2:00)

Russell likes to lay back and see and see the whole field. Well, you know, it is kind of a wonderful story. We both grew up in small towns in Texas and somehow early on realized that architecture is what it was going to be about for us. And, and in my case, I was six. I think Russell may have been slightly behind that, but we were, we were sort of single mindedly in pursuit of becoming architects. But along the way we also started watching what was going on in Texas. When we got a little more education, a little wiser, a little more maturity, and a lot of the, quote, good buildings, great buildings were being done in Texas, were being done by architects who were not from Texas. And I'd been in a firm where, there, where we were affiliated with one of these, these groups. And I was watching them come into town and kind of rule the roost and do all this great stuff. And we were just kind of there doing the dirty work. And I thought, I don't want to do that. I want to, I want to go to work for them or someone like that. I think Russell had a similar path, but we both ended up in, in Wash. I ended up in Washington D.C. for eight years, Russell in London for a period of years. And we, we got to the end of those roads and decided we wanted to come back to Texas. We didn't know each other. Both independently wanted to come back to Texas and make our mark here in hopes of kind of solving the problem that I had observed, Russell had observed some years earlier. And so we picked Houston out of the logical choices. Dallas, San Antonio and Austin. Houston is socially open and it is, it is available to people who come in here with ideas and ambition and skills and just energy. And that is, that is a hallmark of this, of this year community. We found that when we got here, a friend of ours who's a wonderful classical architect introduced us and we were both plowing our own ground a little bit and suddenly got about three projects one week and sort of said, I'm going to do this work. And Russell said, I'm going to do this work and I hope you're a good guy. I said, hope you're a good guy. And 33 years later, we're the dearest of friends and we share an office and we built what you see in some of the pages of the book that you, you, you have.

D (4:09)

The only thing I would add to that, Bill, Bill did what he wanted to do when he was 6 and I wasn't quite as early. I, I went to architecture school. I went to, I went to school one year, I was sort of an athlete and I got hurt. My brother said, what are you going to do? And I said, you know, I, I don't really know. And he said, I think you'd be a good architect. Said, okay, I'll give it a rip until I learn otherwise. So that really is how I got into it. And then I just remember I am in architecture school. I didn't believe much of what they were telling me because the Buildings they were telling us to look at. I didn't really enjoy them. I didn't know if there was something wrong with me or what they were telling me. And that, you know, it's one of those eureka moments. I started seeing these books on traditional orbits and traditional buildings and it's like now that's architecture that I could be excited about. And you know, I remember the first book, it was Leon Greer's book and I was. It was just so shockingly different and it just spoke and so fast forward. I came out of architecture school after still fighting my way through the whole thing. And I remember, like Bill said, there weren't lots of jobs in Texas in 1985 at 6, it was during another recession. And I saw on the COVID of the old progressive architecture the first two buildings that they built at csi. I don't know if you know, you have Seaside in Florida, one of the first developments, New Urbanist approach. And I said that's what I want to do. So I went to the east coast, interviewed and when I first worked at firm or Taylor Architecture and Gardens that. That did the first six or eight buildings there, we just kept building that. So that really is where my wild. For me, there's no separation between love of architecture and traditional architecture because frankly, I don't like most of what's being built. So. And then we came to Houston and you know, Bill was in Washington and I was. I was in London working for traditional classical architects. And so much of this comes from the site and you know, and sheer. We have river oaks. We're probably 70%. Well, 80%, I would say 80 to 90% of our clients come from Rick Ropes. And the nice thing about Houston is we have a really awful summers. So our clients all have places at good places and they pack us, pack up us and our hunting dogs and take us to the better places during the summer. Just as a bit great.

C (7:16)

I think there's an interesting point to be made that. I mean, Russell's background was his background and interest was his interest and mine was slightly different. It was contextual and working in cities that were very urban, but doing buildings that were appropriately rendered into the situation is so as not to call out, call attention to themselves necessarily, but to offer support of the fabric or to reinforce an issue or to, you know, reorient someone's method of moving through a situation. And so when we, when we got to Houston, that's. That is sort of how I think our blend of coming together is. We both have a lot of knowledge of Architectural history and precedent. We use it hourly around here, but we always are looking at the site to generate what the solution is, what an appropriate solution is. And so for me, I relate to that in that old contextual way and sort of feeling like I'm not trying to be the building that has the bells and the towers and the whistles and then look at me sort of stuff. There are moments for that, but we're always trying to kind of do the right. The right thing. And then I think Russell's affinity with language, and I've certainly learned a lot about that as well, is building buildings that speak to you through their languages, that are appropriate to where they are, whether it's Montana or whether it's the Bahamas or New York City or wherever, has been kind of a real blend of what our experiences were from school on.

A (8:48)

Everything you just said is touched on in the book. I wanted to go back to Texas, though, because I felt like that was the main character throughout the whole book. Obviously you do work all over the place, but a lot of the projects, maybe most of the projects were in Texas and a lot of them were in River Oaks, like you mentioned. The book kind of starts there, actually, in the introduction with a brief history of River Oaks, but maybe expand on Texas a little bit, you know, because there are so many. There's a beautiful variety of styles in the different houses, and it kind of reflects the. The different mentalities and styles across Texas. And so I kind of loved that. It was almost like this little study in Texas and what makes it great. I don't know if you did that intentionally, but.

D (9:39)

Well, that's an interesting question. And, you know, Texas is big enough where there really are different things going on in the state. So when I think of our work, I think of us as Houstonians more than Texans because, you know, San Antonio is Spanish and Hispanic driven and the aesthetic and they're tied to that. Dallas. Dallas is Dallas. Dallas wishes it was on either the west coast or the east coast and not Texas. Houston is quintessential Texas. And River Oaks, I think, is even specific to Houston because, I mean, it was based on different types of architecture speaking to one another. So they were all supposed to be generally traditional, but work with one another. It wasn't somatic in that regard. And so there's a really wide variety of architectural. You can. Architectural language, you can live, you can work with, within river roads. And so, you know, that's why you want an English house, a French inspired house. It gives us a lot to do where we get to do different styles of architecture, and if you keep the scale and the proportions right, they all blend in really well. And I think the other thing that was great for us, and somewhat unbeknownst he was a great architect here, there were a handful of them, but the one that everyone seems to know is Jart Stop. So he was here when River Oak started, so he really got to establish this fabric that was cohesive and well done. And then traditional architecture sort of dies out, and cuesta does it in a lot of places. And I think when we came back, it was sort of dumb luck that we ran into this. We came to Houston for other reasons, met one another, but we knew the language of John Stock. And so I think as soon as we got to build one or two things, people started to see it, and that's what kind of opened the market up. So I think of us as really Houston architects.

A (12:08)

Okay, that makes sense.

D (12:10)

Yeah. And it's been fun. The other great thing about River Oaks, Bill and I both had to lake there. Bill recently left the hood, but I don't see a part of the hood. I win. I can ride or walk my bike 3 miles and see over 35 projects we've worked on.

A (12:31)

I did love that about the book, because I could see, you know, knowing which ones were in River Oaks. I was like, I could see these being neighbors, and it wouldn't look weird because you could kind like see that vernacular where it was not the same, but you could see them living harmoniously on the same street, which was really fun to imagine.

D (12:52)

Yeah. I think that's what's really nice about Rudro. You know, like most, it has restrictions to a certain degree, but not like restrictions today. And in general, Texans don't like restrictions. But there was an implied restriction and a conceptual idea of what it was supposed to be. And what's interesting is it says the landscape should dominate. And now people are filling up lots, and frankly, it's sad, in my opinion, it's being destroyed. It's really unfortunate.

A (13:30)

So filling up the lots, as in, like, more square footage of house per. Like, the. The percentage is different than what it was intended.

D (13:39)

Yeah, the percentage of coverage is maxed out.

A (13:42)

Got it.

D (13:43)

So therefore, the building dominates more than the landscape. And that wasn't the. Like, the lawns are supposed to just be contingents. And now people put hedges and driveways and trees and isolate themselves, and they're just. They're. They're missing and destroying what makes railroads special.

C (14:07)

The good manners that were implicit by the original Developers and the original architects who understood scale and proportion and putting themselves in the background to some degree to allow this greater vision to happen, isn't happening now. And I think Russell and I, as we still get opportunities to work in reroach, are always approaching it as that first generation thought process, if I'm correct. And we're being asked to do projects that are the ones that are the ones we're complaining about. They're bigger than they should be. They are. And so that becomes our task. The first generation architects were building this out of nothing. It was dirt and they put roads down and they planted trees and they put a few houses in. And we're coming in and doing. It's completely built when we, when we moved to Houston and we're coming in and doing surgery and repair and editing and yes, we get a chance to do new things on occasion, but they're always done with respect to the original vision. So our thought was, well, you know, if we can continue to do that and be successful at it, then hopefully it will influence other people. I think we've had some influence, but it's. We don't have influence over the. The people who are not going to be very thoughtful, meaning the, the speculative builders and people like that who somehow found an expensive market affordable to go and do that. So heretofore it had been mostly private clients who were kind of coming in here who wanted to do something that was like the neighborhood because that's why they liked it.

D (15:37)

It's so great when we get a call from a potential client. You look at the site, if there's an ugly house, you're like, yeah, we could tear down a hockey. And the older cook happy to tear.

C (15:48)

Some of it down as long as happy to tear it down if we can, you know, if only if we can do something better coming back. Which is.

A (15:56)

Yeah.

C (15:57)

Which is often the case.

A (15:58)

You do talk in, in many of the projects about like the limitations of the lot or, you know, and obviously you're sort of framing what the decisions were. But I was curious if you had, you know, kind of like what are some things people should consider when, when, when getting their lot if they are going to build something new? You know, it might just be like what, what lot can they afford to buy in the neighborhood? But are there things that you would maybe just have them be aware of based on like. I think there were a couple that were corner lots and then there was the one where they had the two lots that backed up to one another.

D (16:39)

That's impressive. You remember that much?

A (16:42)

We study. We did our homework.

D (16:45)

Well, you know, in any River Oaks is suburbia and there's different sections that have bigger lots and smaller lots. And obviously the smaller ones are more affordable and they're oftentimes in a way more difficult, I guess. And, but I think what we try to do with our clients really, really early is understand how big it is based on what they want. And you know, one of the things, one of the things I think that really keeps sort of makes our houses fit in. So when River Oaks was started, there was no air conditioning. So you really help to set the rooms up so that you could get natural ventilation, which means they had to be one room wide. That doesn't mean it has to be just in a straight line. It could be a Z shape that's only one room wide or it can take on a lot of different shapes. And so that would allow for the breeze to go in. That's what sort of first generation and authentic. I don't. But you know, fast forward to today. We totally live with air conditioning. But when you want natural light or you want a relationship to the garden, which that's what people love. Now, falling back on looking at the old stock plans and understanding what they. How can you utilize the site for air conditioning? That's what makes our. A lot of what makes our buildings book authentic in reverse. And so if someone comes to you and they have a lot and it's the small lots, river ups are 90, 85 to 90ft wide and 140 deep. If someone comes to you and says, I want to put a 20,000 foot house on it for us, more than likely we'll say no thank you because you can't do something right. Or we might say you really need a larger lot. We're, we're sort of brutally honest about these things because we're, we're pretty good architects. We're awful magicians.

A (19:03)

There was a line in the book that sort of speaks to what you're saying. It's like it was as much about contributing to the city as it is about existing within its own landscape. So it's, you're, you're, you're doing a public service to the neighborhood by telling them, no, that's a bad idea.

C (19:21)

I, I think that's a fair comment.

D (19:25)

That's what clients like about where we're straight shooters and, and if there's not an opportunity, we just call it like it is.

A (19:39)

What about stylistically? Have there ever been maybe stylistic choices they wanted to make that you felt like wouldn't work with, you know, the aesthetic or your. Maybe your aesthetic, or can you kind of fit any sort of, you know, French country or Italian villa into a. A way to make it work?

C (20:05)

Well, well, well. River Oaks is designed to let that happen because they're asking for those houses to be side by side by side. But the way that we would go about doing any kind of ultimate design problem for our clients would be to listen to them tell us these things. And we might recognize in the course of listening that, well, a frontal Georgian house, because of the. Because if it's on a corner lot with these great oak trees isn't going to be as successful, perhaps, as something more romantic. And we may internalize that, but we'll sit down and schematically come up with 1, 2, 3, 4, usually five or six ways that you could put a house on a piece of property. And some houses are planned to be romantic. Some houses are planned to be formal. And so when you show people what they're asking for relative to what something that. That perhaps is more natural, and you do it with an open mind. And we could make the formal thing work. But is it the best thing? Now, sometimes people say, yeah, I still want that, but at least they have a foundation to know that they're putting us on a lane, that we then have to. Maybe there's a little magic on occasion, but for the most part, the neighborhood's designed to be receptive to a variety of things. Some. Lots are better than others for certain types of things. Most people make the right call and go. I see the advantage of that. I'm willing to do that. And if they're here, they do. I think if they're building a spec house, they may not, because they're not getting advised. Probably.

A (21:34)

Yeah.

D (21:36)

We have this funny thing we always do, and it's hard to teach people in the office while we do it, but when clients come, we really ask them, bring as many pictures as you want, bring your Instagram, and bring whatever. But what you have to do is go through each picture and say, why do you like that picture? Because most people can't talk about design by professionals. So you have to learn how to get out of them what's important. And so when they bring their pictures and it's bad when they send them to you, because you can pull the picture and say, you know, you showed us the front of this house that's beautifully symmetrical. Oh, I like that flower over there on the side.

A (22:20)

I like the sunset on the. Yeah.

D (22:22)

Why do you have to say, why do you like the picture? Because you get more insight by hearing their description. So back to what I was saying. Our first meeting with clothes, we always show them Only in Plan 3 schemes.

C (22:40)

Or more or more.

D (22:41)

And we the first one, we try to draw as close to what they said they weren't. The second one, we take a few leverages and say what ifs. And the third or fourth when they say, you know, if you come to us and we show you five the first time, that means Bill doesn't like your first answer to try to convince you he does.

B (23:03)

Okay, so the more you get, the more you know Bill didn't like what you brought.

A (23:07)

Good to know.

D (23:09)

Don't tell anyone that, but that's the way it works.

A (23:11)

We'll cut that part out. We won't let anyone know.

C (23:16)

We'Re interchangeable to some degree.

B (23:17)

Honestly, I was going to ask, how often are you educating your clients just from such a classical background? I imagine people come with stuff that you're like, oh God, like, like you're, you know, it makes your sense.

A (23:38)

But.

B (23:38)

Or that. And then you're educating them on maybe why or the reason for this detail. Hey, it's Taryn, your favorite host and designer at Ballard Designs. I'm excited to share with our awesome listener that more than 250 new designs are live on the website. Now. One of my favorite products I designed this season is the Arena Media console. It is this very super long console that works with any size tv. It comes in this gorgeous dark walnut finish and these textured front and these beautiful little turned delicate legs.

A (24:15)

Mmm.

B (24:15)

It's so sweet. And not only is it just sweet, it's really versatile. It has two sets of cabinet doors as well as two drawers. So not only can you fit blankets, you could also fit small things like the remote. You know, the one that always seems to go missing. It's perfect. I'm really excited to finally share some of these wonderful products with you. So please visit Ballardesigns.com new to see all the new beautiful product that we've worked so hard on and we can't wait to share with all of you.

D (24:46)

Well, it, it happens a lot. But you know another secret? You can't tell any of our clients what's been great for us for virtually every year we've been really is. And so when clients are interviewing us to see if they want to work with us, we're also interviewing them. And, and if you run up against something in your life, you know, I don't I don't see why we're going to make something nice. You just don't, you know, you don't do those. And it's rare that that happens because most people once they, once they learn and really are listening to them and you're working with them and for them, a lot of times they relinquish control and they know they're in good, they still participate, but they're not dictating. People dictate to us. It seems like when they, if they get the feeling that we're not listening or something like that. But general, it is pretty rare when, when you don't see those signs early on and know and maybe it's just not a good fit. You know, the other thing that, that a commitment we made to one another, although that if we're in an interview and one of us just has a bad sheet, you don't have to convince the other, but we just, you know, we listen to intuition.

C (26:19)

Yeah, absolutely.

A (26:21)

I imagine maybe your, your clients who are first time clients and second time clients, it's a very different experience because if they've been through it with you before, then they can kind of let go a little earlier maybe. And.

D (26:32)

Yeah. Well, what's interesting, after our having done this for so long, you know, we always are getting new clients and used to, they were all older than us. Now most of them are younger than us and so how do you walk with them? And then I know we both have clients we've worked for a long time. 1 remind me the other day that we've been working, working together for 24 years. Straight grudges.

A (27:01)

Wow.

D (27:02)

It's probably half of the work in our office or more is repeat clients. Yeah, we love that.

A (27:11)

That must make you feel good. Yeah, yeah.

C (27:13)

Oh yeah, yeah. I, I love, I look forward to. There's a couple of them that I've worked for and built five or six things and then the phone rings. I'm just like, where are we going now? You know, it's gonna be great fun.

A (27:24)

Yeah.

B (27:26)

And in those repeat clients do you find, do they usually like choose different styles or kind of keep in the same vein or depend on location?

C (27:39)

I guess very decoratively eccentric. I mean she goes down all kinds of roads and so she always does a little sketch for me and she laughs and then I tell her we have to tear out a perfectly good swimming pool in order to realize her idea. And that's how we get started because I've now, I've now torn out three swimming pools that she just put in and she said, I just can't get it right. I just got to stop before I put it in before and then call you and then we'll go. But yeah, we've done a flat roof 55 modernist house that we worked on for five years here in Houston for her. That was a renovation of one of Houston's great old modernist architects, his own home and ranch houses. Which one of which is in the book. Both of those houses are in the book. Actually we just did a, a tent pavilion up in Martha's Vineyard for her and, and on and on and on. So she's, she's great fun and, and just brings a lot of energy and a lot of ability to encourage you to do the best you can do. And yeah, so familiarity is certainly one of the great things about that. You also know, you also know when to push and when to back off and. Because when you don't know someone, you can have a great idea and then they maybe, maybe they don't. They're not responsive to it. And then, then your design problem is, and I work around this, this no answer to get back to a positive situation, which is the reason we do that is we figure that's what they're there for, is to get us to do something great for them.

A (29:05)

Can we talk about that Homewood House because it was so spectacular. Maybe tee our listeners up a little bit so they can, you know, it's a very mid century modern house. But you kind of mentioned a little bit, but maybe just give them a little.

C (29:20)

Yeah. So the Homewood House is on Houston's kind of greatest street. It's called Lazy Lane. Even the name's the great name.

A (29:27)

It is a good name.

C (29:27)

Amazing. It's where Bio Bend is. And all the, all the lots are huge. They're three or four acre lots. And so this house that we had an opportunity to work on for five years was one of, was done by Hugo Newhouse, who was one of Houston's sort of favorite sun modernist architects from the 50s. It was his own house. It's rather large. I understand he had a wonderful contemporary art collection of Picassos and the like that hung in there at one point. So it's really a modernist villa. But over the years, many people had come to own it after him and systematically had changed it to modernize it or make it more appropriate for how they want to live and in the course of it ruined it. And our client, for whom we had just finished a new house, saw this opportunity to own this thing and these, these 50s houses don't turn up very often in River Oaks. There aren't many of them. We've worked on several of them but. Which is another little sidebar story we could talk about. But the. So we get this house and she insisted on living in it while we renovated it. I think we had about a 10 phase renovation which was just crazy. But our goal was more or less to. Or at least I argued that we need to first get it back to the way it was and then we can modify it to her goals. But she became satisfied largely with taking the house back to. What would Mr. Newhouse have done? To some degree, which was not apparent, there weren't documents for this thing. We had to kind of reason it. So it was a little bit of a mystery job. And we did all that. And I knew that she was going to come in strong with decoration and, and that. That I love. And so. But she also came in strong with art. And the art was different than anything we'd done before where the art was often part of the architecture. It was immured into it, built into it and it was really super stuff or the kind of collection that she had understand. And so it's all in the, it's all in the book. And you can see that if you know what you're.

D (31:31)

You're.

C (31:32)

You're looking at. But we spent five years working on that. And you know, they're. They've lived in it and they entertain in it and have a, have a whole soulful reason of why they, why they did that. They want to live in Houston and occupy some great house and make sure it goes on to the next generation of use. And it was just loads of fun for me to be involved with such energy.

A (31:53)

I loved how it's such a like rectilinear house. It's very boxy and yet they have so many curvilinear lines as well, both in like those repeating round windows, but also in the furniture. And I loved seeing that because I think sometimes those rectilinear lines feel so harsh and it kind of balances. Is that something that y' all were adding, like some of the features in there? Or was a lot of that already there?

C (32:24)

The. The round windows you referred to were there, but they were there. There are more of them than they originally were. So we, we sort of edited them and moved them around a little bit to make them kind of be more consistent with what might have been. She also didn't want to take it back to a neutral point the way it always was. She, she. We left a few idiosyncrasies. Idiosyncrasies within the house that give it a little bit more energy and life than maybe the strict way that Mr. Newhouse had, had done it. But yeah, we had opportunities to insert architecturally some. Some of that. That forms of the art that we were seeing, particularly in the. In the swimming pool and the indoor swimming pool, in the hot and the cold plunge pools and things like that. They're very sculptural and almost from another continent in a way.

D (33:12)

I think that's one of the big things that Bill and the team really, and the owner did to alter the place. While respecting the architecture. They completely repeated the landscape and made it far more engaging. And then by adding those outbuildings, it just draws you out into the landscape. And that really wasn't fully considered or realized originally.

C (33:41)

It was in a more modest way and probably appropriate for the time. Pat Fleming, who was Houston's favorite son landscape architect, who did Bio Bend, did the original garden. And we engaged with Reed Hildebrand out of Boston to do a more contemporary garden that was consistent with the aesthetic of a modernist house. But they looked a lot at the. The work of Pat Fleming and how particularly those grass steps that it kind of spew off the back of the house that you'll see in the book. But yeah, it was a real team effort of a lot of different people coming together.

A (34:14)

Why does the fountain by the front door make me nervous? I'm like, I'm going to fall in. Don't give me too much wine. I have to swim. Like the water.

C (34:25)

Yeah. You know, there has been consider consideration of taking that fountain apart and putting it back together in a way that feels a little bit more visually safe. But I think there's some stepping stones across a water pool is what's being referred to here. So you have to kind of get your gate right and. And then you're fine.

A (34:44)

Was that. Was there or.

C (34:46)

No, it was built. We built that.

A (34:48)

That's amazing. Yeah, it really sets the tone for the, like, more whimsical decor inside. You know, not everyone is willing to put in a fountain. Or would you call that a fountain? What is it, like a reflection?

C (35:04)

Yeah, well, it's a little bit of a real.

D (35:05)

That.

C (35:05)

That where water falls into a pool. But in plan, if you look at it carefully, the. It fills a corner of the house the way the pool in the backyard fills between the volumes. So it's. It's consistent with the original idea. It's just a. A Little bit more of a theatrical way to get into the house.

A (35:22)

Ah.

C (35:23)

If not dangerous, was that the client's.

A (35:25)

Idea or was that your.

C (35:27)

Well, I. Those were. Those would be conversations that we would have been engaged in. But really, Reed Hildebrand's design work there is what you're looking at.

A (35:35)

Got it.

C (35:36)

Yep. And that was part of an overall larger landscape plan that had consistent details and consistent kind of level of thought process. And you see that around the whole site.

A (35:47)

Like, was the plan the same from the beginning or did it evolve throughout the five years? I guess is.

C (35:54)

The house is so rigorous, we didn't add onto it and change its form. So we worked within the context of it, with the exception of the building where the swimming pools are that Russell was mentioning and these outbuildings. One of the outbuildings was there. We just kind of took it down and put it back up in a different. In a more permanent fashion. But retail brand was brought in pretty early on. One of the primary things there was the entry to the house was located at a corner which has now become dangerous. It wasn't in 1955, beating traffic and whatnot. So they. They moved the drive system in and made it much more of an estate kind of entry sequence and something a little bit more consistent with the lazy lane that we know today with grand houses and sort of proper entries and sequences to ritualistic sequences to the front door.

B (36:38)

Yeah.

A (36:40)

It'S really fabulous. Yeah, Very unique.

C (36:45)

Well, I wish I knew more about the art. I mean, I just. It's fascinating to me. I mean, some of it I knew, but I wish I'd known what was coming. Even more. More excited about it. Like, the ceiling in the. In the living room is tree limbs, in effect, with flowers going on them. And it's just amazing. And, you know, for Russell and I, normally people go, well, they're not going to like that, but I actually do. I think. I think everything is so consistently rendered, whether it's the. The furniture or the. Or the way the books are held on the wall or the. Or the, you know, the art deco glass bar or the mirrored bar, whatever. It's also kind of consistently thought about at a. At a. At a level of high expectation about. Of idea that it's easy to go along with this and not be like, judgmental about anything of it, because it's just. And you know, that the art's good and it's done by people who are well respected. So I felt like we were in good company. I was proud to be there with Reed. Hildebrand. And the. And the artist and.

A (37:49)

And Summer Thornton.

C (37:51)

Summer Thornton, yep. And Studio Shamsheri was originally involved.

A (37:54)

Well, the other thing that I was so. And we didn't really touch on this yet, but there's such a, like, sense of humor in so many of your projects, which I love, you know, because you're. You have such a classical sensibility, but there's definitely a, like, lightness. I mean, the pub was a great example. That was so fun. Um, and it was funny because I was reading, you know, each, I guess project starts with a drawing and a little blurb. And so I was reading the blurb about the pub and kind of like, huh, I don't know about this. And then I saw the pictures and it was a really. Just kind of wow moment and would be so fun to happen upon if I were golfing there.

D (38:42)

Well, it's also, it's also the personality. The client is a wow. Personality. Client. Sorry. You know, it just sits there.

C (38:53)

I think we've worked on five projects for them and including a new house that we're doing in Seaside, which is behind their current house. So we will have accomplished the first family compound in Seaside as the newly built scenario based on kind of Rhode island coastal architecture. But the pub, same sort of thing. They. You read the story, but they, they are just livewire clients. I think the word in the. I think the word in the. In the book that, that Lucy wrote was frequent, frequent flyer clients. And I love that part because they are. And they always bring big ideas. And we got a chance to kind of play with that little tiny room. And people do come off the golf course and go into the pub and check it out and write a note or have a beer off the tap or whatever it is. And they're. They're. They're wide open enough to let that happen and not be worried about it.

A (39:48)

But it was also the approach and you know, the, like, even the. The gate and it was just so charming from the outside that I imagine it really adds to the golf course just visually, in addition to being fun.

C (40:06)

It's there and not there. I mean, it. It's very much the architecture of the house we did years ago for them. Those scale, the scale of that house, the proportions of it, it's details, et cetera, are the basic volume of the pub. And so it does blend in and it fits in. But then the gates announce themselves as kind of members only, tongue in cheek, and you kind of ascend some steps and you know that you're. You're encroaching not only across a gate for members only, but you're ascending some steps. You're. You're crossing into the social realm of someone else's property. And. And then. Then you get to this door that's got some little tiny window that you can't really see through and a door knocker that's a golf ball. And anyway. And then when you walk in it, it is. Oh, wow. It's just. Just feels like you're in a little bit of Scotland, frankly.

D (40:53)

Well, I think one of the other things that works for you, you're noticing out there that houses generally are built to a setback, but that little building, it, you know, you don't know does it belong to the golf course or that house because it's pushed out.

C (41:08)

Right.

D (41:09)

So it's that little interruption of, you know, that the norm that gives that moment of question, which I think. Yeah. That sets off the adventure of getting to experience.

A (41:22)

Okay. I normally wouldn't ask a question about zoning, but how did they get that built in the setback? Was that.

D (41:31)

Is it considered an outbuilding?

A (41:33)

Yeah. Like, were. Was there a limitation that they weren't allowed to build there or. No, we were allowed there would be here in Atlanta.

C (41:42)

Yeah, we were allowed to build there.

A (41:43)

Okay.

C (41:43)

But it doesn't. It's because it's a freestanding building, which was allowed. It. It comes off as being independent and. And the ambiguity where the golf course stops and starts is. To Russell's comment, it could. It feels like it could be either or.

A (41:58)

Yeah.

D (41:58)

I don't. I don't remember the deed restrictions there. Back in River Oaks, there's a restriction for the footprint of the make house. If you detach a building intended for a garage, it can be pushed further back. If it's attached, it can't. So that's another game you play, you know, trying to make the most of the side.

B (42:20)

Could you walk us through the Wallaceville farm? I just loved the, you know, the history in that one, and I thought that was such a fun one for people to look up to.

D (42:32)

You know, it's an interesting one. It is a generous site. I think Lucy wrote this, but one of the big trees out front is documenting. Whenever the Texans caught Santa Ana, that's where they held them until saying just to get there. So that's in their front yard. So, you know, that's pretty sacred ground to work with these parts. It was this great house, and the owner had grown up there his entire childhood, and now his family is living there, and, you know, they Wanted to make it a home that, you know, fit contemporary needs. So we redid the inside of the house, but there were also two houses just out on the property. So we brought them in towards back as guest house and a school building. And then we built that pool house. The whole idea was, you know, trying to build just a little community in that space between buildings. And the, the new pool building of the other two formed sort of a horseshit horseshoe shape around pool. And, you know, when you have so many times when we work on the country and there's nothing you have to using the landscape, build this sort of history. But if you just have one tree, in this case stand trees, it allows you to have immediately have permits. We also had that historic house. The building behind it is where we really got to kind of be created and create and create a whole new exterior experience around the house. That was a fun project.

A (44:26)

It's so romantic.

D (44:29)

The site. The site's just gorgeous here. Look off in all directions. You know, let's clean doors right out the top. When it's getting.

B (44:39)

Gosh, yeah, the Victorian. Yeah, there's just so much to look at and so many textures in one little place. So it was interesting to see how you got the pool house to like what you pulled from the original to, you know, decorate the pool house. It's beautiful.

D (45:00)

Yeah, that was a fern project. But if you go down the west, there are awesome projects. And, um, I mean, because people let us, you know, not let us do what we want to do, they let us take their ideas as far as possible and encourage.

A (45:19)

That's a great, like, piece of insight though, for our listeners, because I think most people probably have a little bit more like a little bit of hesitancy and you're kind of suggesting maybe you haven't taken the idea far enough, you know, and like, if it's not working, maybe it's like not there yet and you just kind of got to keep.

D (45:45)

Going, you know, I think, I think people let us keep going because, I mean, it's not marketing. We really try to get to know them and really focus on what they liked. And then through architectural language, our experience, whatever, we feel like we can take their idea further than the answer. That's a win, win deal.

A (46:13)

Yeah.

C (46:16)

Well, sometimes you get to a point with a client and an idea where it's just not resonating like it's what they said they wanted. And we've shown you five different ways you can do this idea and it's still not resonating. It's not necessarily we can't come up with a great idea, but maybe the idea has a little bit of some fundamental thing in it that just keeps it from being great. And so sometimes you have to know when to, when to change the paradigm. And I, and I've said many times in meetings, it's like we now present with some other of our colleagues and let them kind of have some opportunity to be part of the, this flow of information and they can respond better by being at table. But I'll jump in the middle of it sometimes and just say something that's just completely, totally different just to shake it up and get us off point. And if you do it with a client, kind of live, it's not like you've premeditated it and you've, you've thought about it and you're trying to set them up to do something that you want to do. I don't ever have an agenda about what I want to do. I might have a way I want to do it once I have an idea, but that's usually an aesthetic issue. But the solving the problem issue, sometimes you have to just be willing to toss it out and, and be, and we do have a little bit of a bully pull put down from all our years of doing this to where people go, oh, well, they're, they are listening and now they're, they're saying this and, and, and so usually it works out, but we never walk in with a strong idea and say, this is, this is how it's going to be. We learned that lesson a long time ago. Plus it's not our tendency.

B (47:53)

Now. Do you guys would, do you have favorite projects in the book? Just because there are so many.

D (47:59)

My favorite project I've ever worked on is the next one.

A (48:05)

Great answer for all your future clients.

D (48:09)

I mean, that would be like saying which is your favorite. It'd be like saying which is your favorite child.

B (48:15)

Well, yeah, and you'd still have an answer for either a season of life and, or their age. So I see you being like, this.

A (48:24)

One'S my favorite because it was the.

B (48:25)

Most challenging, that was the most rewarding, but that's fair. Or if you had a favorite architecture style, then you could be like, oh, I loved working on this because it filled my cup, you know, but that's fair. I won't, I won't.

D (48:39)

I know it sounds, I, I, I would say I love when people want to do a style we'd never done before. Like in the first book on the COVID it's this French house. And we had never done a free job. And that's exciting to do something the first time because you get to just learn so much. And so that's exciting. I will say, you know, somebody asked us to do a Georgian house. We've done a bunch of those. But how do you make Georgian be that person's house, not just a Georgian house? That's. That's exciting, too. So it's not just marketing when I say next, it is fun to make something special for somebody.

C (49:29)

Well, I think Russell's answer is an answer that a lot of architects give, and it's a fair one because it is exciting to get that next project. But if you qualify it within the book, I still would say I'm not sure what my favorite is, but I can tell you there was one in the book that was probably involved the most energy of a personal nature for me, and that was to do my own house. And so I was sort of bored. I never thought I'd do my own house, but I was sort of mortified when my wife came to me one day and said, you know, Bill, we haven't been upstairs in six months. Our kids are all kind of moved on, and maybe it's time to think about getting a little smaller house. So Russell alluded to this earlier. We spent 25 years in River Oaks and recently built a house near the Menil Museum, which was a great fun challenge with your wife as your client. And anyway, we're still happily married and love our house.

A (50:28)

Good to know you made.

C (50:30)

Took a lot of energy.

A (50:31)

Was it? I am sure. Yeah. What were some things you learned about having yourself as a client?

C (50:37)

Not really having a desire to do a house for myself was. Was meant. I had to get over that hurdle because Jane. Jane had left the station. She'd already found the lot she wanted, and we were successful in buying it. It was adjacent to the Menil Museum. That was the other kind of large elephant in the room is two Renzo Piano buildings and a Johnson Markley building 100 yards away. And they're one of them at least. Maybe one of the more famous buildings in America at least. And as an architect, most architects, I would think contemporary inspired architects would be salivating. Build next to the nil. It kind of scared me because I really wasn't that interested in trying aesthetically to be part of that process, being the kind of architects that we are. But the neighborhood was full of bungalows that the Menil had saved and painted in one unifying color to make a campus. So we were Part of a campus, whether we wanted to not be or not. And so we set about trying to do a building that was thoughtful, a thoughtful insertion on a very tiny lot, 50 by 100ft with an 80 foot diameter oak tree in the middle of it. So I thought if I was ever going to do a house for myself, this might be the one to do it on because it's kind of self limiting. I really probably can't get in that much trouble. And anyway, we set about doing it and it ended up being a great experience. Russell was very kind to endure this as I was mulling over various ideas all the time. But yeah, it was great fun and I think the menil appreciated it. At the end of the day they are nervous about people coming in, inserting things in their campus. And I knew we would, we would get there, but it took them some time to kind of see it. And as they saw it, they began to help us, including leasing us some land to build the house, access to the house so we didn't kill the tree. So we ended up getting to be part of a neighborhood through the process. And to this day people walk by and thank us for saving the tree, which of course was implicit in our mind. But, but you know, the way things go in Houston, people come scrape something and build something ugly every day. Sometimes people build something nice. So we kind of fell on that side of the coin.

A (52:42)

Yeah, there were a lot of projects where you didn't take. Well, I'm sure you took down trees, but there were, you know, big trees that it was clear you were kind of building around. Like give us, give our listeners sort of a pitch for why you shouldn't take down trees. I feel like that's a, it's probably a challenge for a lot of people because they. You have something you want to accomplish and there's a big tree in the way.

C (53:13)

Well, that might, that might go that. Well, that might go back to one of your earlier questions about what would you advise clients to do? You know, if they've got a lot that's got a tree in the middle of it, then. And, and you want to build and your setbacks are such, you know, you're going to have to cut the tree down to build it. That and you, but you value the tree. Well, you know, maybe buy the lot next door and you know, there, there are ways around that that probably aren't for everybody. But those, those trees have cultural value to our city and our, in our neighborhoods and people look at them in the manila they've Saved all the old oak trees so they dot their campus and everybody walks on the sidewalks and hangs out under the trees in the afternoon in the shade. And so, you know, I think if you just see a way to value it and you can compromise probably in the right word, but. But you can change your paradigm, to use my old term here, to see how you could put a house on a lot that had a tree without killing the tree, without. You know, there may be something that unique that comes out of it that allows you to focus your property on the tree and enjoy the tree every moment of every day that you're in your house. And that's what happened to us. But. But a lot of times it's. If there's trees and we can take advantage of them by keeping them, we're always going to be looking at them. But we have great trees. We have these live oak trees that are just absolutely spectacular kind of sculptural things to look at. So you want to. You want to take care of them.

D (54:37)

And you can. You can also move trees. We. Yep, there was a. There was one. You couldn't get your arms around it, and they wanted to keep it, but it was in the wrong place. So we moved it. And then. And it lived. And that client decided not to build and sold the lot. And so we started with another client, hired us, and we designed that house and we started construction.

A (55:05)

And the way they did it, kill the tree.

D (55:07)

Now, they took all this. It's called oil field pipe. It's, you know, about 3 inch diameter. And so they put the pipe under the tree, they dug a deep hole and rolled it slowly to its new place. Then when they planted it in the next hole, it just moved the pipes apart and left them under the tree. And the roots went down through it. And so, you know, it was suddenly over in a good place. We'll get ready to start structuring the next house. And they pouring the foundation in one corner, and they're going. We just hit pipe and it's all over the place. Oh, God. That's pipe the tree.

A (55:47)

I don't even want to know how much that cost. Oh, God.

D (55:50)

Cost less than a tree.

C (55:54)

Yeah. A tree that big. Anyway, we moved a giant tree at River Oats Country Club and put it on big balloons. It looked like cigars that were about 80ft long. And then roll the roll. Inflated the balloons below the tree and lifted the tree up. And then they. They just rolled it by rotating the balloons into a new position. And it's been in there 10 years and it's so happy. So yeah, you don't always have to cut them down. That seems kind of dramatic. We move smaller trees all the time. Yeah, these trees down here because we have such a warm, humid burden wet climate grow like topsy. So yeah, we, we're always putting landscape back into the context to reinforce what we might have had to take out to, to achieve a goal.

A (56:37)

You talked a little bit earlier about some of your, like your team internally and I just real quick before you wrap up, I was curious about, I think there was a section in the book about Notre Dame and you know, sort of like classical architecture, like the study and and then you also talked about your. Some of the people on your team have to study for six months before they can work on a project. What's. Did I get that right?

D (57:08)

Well, the Notre Dame parts. Right. You know, Notre Dame really was the, and and still is kind of the only architecture school in America that has a five year classical program. You can take other classes but that really is what they do. There's starting to be other universities that have limited studios because I think whatever the market has changed, if you wanted to say it. So people are coming around and want to live in beautiful places here. But so that's, that's been fertile ground for us to recruit from. And so we used to go up there and you'd be four firms would be us and three from New York all getting the best kids. And now you know, every year there's between 35 and 40 they graduate undergrad grad and they cut off the job fair at 80 participants. That's how sought after they are.

C (58:10)

80 firms.

D (58:11)

Yeah, yeah. So it is a, it is, you know, to get people who actually have experience. That's what it takes. We don't always get to go there. And there are plenty of really great aspiring architects coming out of elder architecture schools. But what they're taught other than just process drawing celtra, they don't know anything. So you really have to start over. And I think a large part of Bill and my success is that we've been so passionate about this. We are self taught. We're always traveling, we're always taking pictures, we're always talking about is that's what you feel able, you've won. You want to find someone who's smart and hungry to be great at what they do and the rest will take care of itself.

C (59:12)

Another point that I think you're making Carolyn, was the time it takes to mature into this situation. It's not like you can come to work and get put on a project and really be a contributor. It's not because you're not capable or someone doesn't have the skills to do it. They're there because we believe that they do have those skills. It just takes a long time to absorb things. And Russell and I are often talking about subtle things like, you know, a pre air conditioned plan or what I like to term a lifestyle plan. So a lot of people come to us today and want these houses that have 16 or 17 different room names in them, you know, as an exercise room and then there's a project room and a gift wrapping room and, and no old house had all that stuff. Had a library and a scullery and a kitchen that was tiny and a dining room and a living room and a terrace to go to evolve out onto and whatnot. And so it just takes a while to absorb what we're, what we're trying to accomplish and that we have. We do landscape in house and we also do interior decoration in house for certain clients that want us to do it. And we're appropriate sometimes for that. And sometimes it's more fun to work with Alexa Hampton or, or you know, Mario Water or whoever it was is. And so we, we, we, we do all that kind of stuff. But in house, particularly with our decorators, we're trying to impress upon the fact that they have an interesting kind of pulpit from which to practice what they're doing as opposed to shopping and buying and installing, which is a ritual. It's like how do you learn how decoration can, can support or contrast with or evolve the architectural thought process ongoing around what they're doing and make a richer interior? That's as we try to make buildings that sit properly in their context, culturally, socially and architecturally. How can decoration or landscape reinforce the same things? And so we actually have meetings every week with them just to talk about questions that they might have that are unrelated to a job, but just about how do we, how do we move the needle on evolving and decorating? Not style or type, but how we solve problems decoratively in a way that's richer than, you know, shopping or how the Internet might sort of lead you to a solution. And so in that sense, Russell and I, our days are constantly varied. We walk through the office, touch everybody, talk to everybody, and you just never know what conversation you're going to get into. And so for us, it keeps us really vital and alive and touching all the work in a substantive way. I think.

A (62:07)

Yeah, I think you talked in One point about your team still doing lots of hand drawings and all of that, which I think is obviously very romantic, but sounds like really ties them to the, I guess the, the history of what, the work you're doing. That's kind of cool. I love seeing the sketches at the beginning of each chapter.

D (62:37)

Yeah. And it's, it, it really, it's not a romantic tie to the way it used to be. It's just, you know, it's your. If you're sitting at a table talking about initial ideas and brainstorming, you can do 10 ideas on a piece of paper. What if, what if, what if, what if by the time someone turns all over to you right for that stage, it's just so much faster and ideas are more freeform. It just, you've made so much more progress. Sometimes people come up in the entrance scene, Bill and I, one of us will be excited about something we saw or what about this and, and the conversations that we can have. You know, what about, you know, lect this and X billion. Yeah, but, but somebody else did this and you've covered, you know, 30 years of great architecture work in a, in a 20 second conversation. It, that's what drawing allows you to do. It's move so fast, it generates so much more information. Just develop ideas.

A (63:46)

I imagine it also feels more like flexible almost, where if you're thinking out an idea and you're drawing it, you don't feel bad about erasing it or starting over. Whereas if it's in CAD or on the computer, like, would it feel more like permanent? I don't know.

D (64:02)

When it feels more resolved, it's harder to take it apart. You know, when I often say to people when they come with their three sketches, these are way too pretty. You took way too much time. All I need is a kernel of the idea so we can have a discussion. Do not waste more time. There's a time for beautiful drawings, but my opinion, not the beginning.

C (64:31)

I think the computer is, is a, it does a lot of things, but at the heart of what we do with it, it's sort of a pencil and you know, it's really. Who's the operator behind that pencil? And so with a hand, you get an emotion out of that, that line that's being drawn. And you can actually find a line better with a pencil than you can do it on computer. For sure. Like there's sometimes just beautiful curves in the landscape that you could sketch. But you, but you get someone, try to get someone to lay that out and they're going to have to do it mathematically and. Yeah, points and the dots, it, it just sort of loses any kind of energy. And I think the way that we are more spontaneous with our staff these days because we, we have a large firm and we're moving around it all day long, that spontaneity is something that kind of works for Russell and I. Yeah.

D (65:16)

What they really hate is when you put trace paper on the computer screen, you draw. They don't like that at all for some reason.

A (65:26)

What about an iPad? You could probably do it on an iPad. That would be pretty easy.

C (65:30)

You could do that.

A (65:31)

Yeah.

B (65:31)

I could definitely see you guys walking over and being like, wait a second, let me get my paper.

C (65:38)

You know, David Hogne taught himself how to do art on a, on a, on an iPad. So I guess there's always room for interpretation here.

A (65:45)

What about your scale? Like putting your scale on the computer?

C (65:49)

Well, that, that is, that is an interesting point. When you draw something by hand, Russell and I learned by drafting, and when you draw a line that you want it to be 4 inches long, you have to sort of have a starting point and make the 4 inch point and then draw it 4 inches and then make sure you measured it correctly and it is 4 inches. So there's a lot of ritual to drawing that leads you to understanding what you just did. The computer's not so much. And I don't mean that. I think this is a universal comment about all people working on the computer and architectural firms. You can ask any of them what size the room is they've been working on and they won't be able to tell you. The first thing they do is go click on it, figure out, oh, it's 15, one and a half. And I think the abstraction that that allows means that you're sort of not completely in touch with what you're doing. So by Russell and I staying aloof from all that, as you could tell, we cannot work computers very well. Prove that without a shadow of doubt.

A (66:41)

We can't either.

C (66:43)

But I think that there's always be a place for drawing in our office because of the surety that it affords. Its relationship to an idea that we can then, that we can then hone.

D (66:55)

Olivia loves a challenge. It's why she lifts heavy weights and likes complicated recipes. But for booking her trip to Paris, Olivia chose the easy way. With Expedia, she bundled her flight with a hotel to save more. Of course, she still climbed all 674 steps to the top of the Eiffel Tower. You were made to take the easy route route. We were made to easily package your trip Expedia made to travel flight inclusive packages are at all protected.

A (67:26)

I find scales to be so fun and interesting.

B (67:32)

Caroline does. She likes to break out her architectural scale.

A (67:36)

I mean not that I have many occasion to do that, but I just find it really empowering like to look at a plan and use your scale like you can tell exactly what size it is. I don't know. Just makes sense.

C (67:45)

Yeah.

B (67:46)

And I draw furniture so I. I'm in your same boat of. It is easier to conceptualize by. By sketch it. It allows a lot more freedom and flow than once. I actually have to draw the cad and then it's definitely a lot more structured. So.

A (68:03)

Well, Taryn also hand does hand painting for us too. So she'll. So you can't do that.

C (68:08)

Oh really?

A (68:09)

On in Photoshop.

C (68:10)

Those are lemons behind you.

B (68:12)

Those are my lemons behind me. This was a test test wall before I did a bigger mural.

A (68:19)

Making the best of it.

C (68:20)

We know that's another thing that we've had a lot of opportunity with is to work with people that have your skills Taren to kind of paint or do murals or craft something. And you know that I love hanging fruits always like millwork and making things. The columns that are sitting on either side of Russell, we cut out a full size oak trees. We cut them.

A (68:40)

Wow.

C (68:40)

Turned them on a lathe to be a Corinthian order and then fumed them with ammonia so there's no stain on those columns. It's just the way that that all that stuff used to be done. And so where we can infuse that kind of thing in our work, we always try to do it. You know, there's the layers of. Of. Of meaning and richness that you can get out of of scale and proportion, shape and history and things coming together. Part of what makes rich things, I think. But it's been a touchstone for all of our work.

A (69:14)

Yeah. Well, the book was just truly a delight. We know you have busy things to get back to so we don't want to take up too much time. But thank you for spending the afternoon with us and sharing your gorgeous book. Can you tell everyone where they can find it and follow you?

C (69:30)

Well, you can find it through it's only and on Amazon. I believe it's available currently for pre order. I believe it will be released on September. September 9th and you can find us at. Through our website@curtis windham.com and we have an Instagram presence similarly titled so, anyway, we're out there.

A (69:54)

Curtis and Wyndham, all one word, you.

D (69:56)

Know, one thing that hasn't been said. And maybe it's obvious when people get the book, but one of the charms you had asked us about was writing and designing of the book. What's very interesting about the book is Hill's younger daughter Lucy is the actual Oscar that worked with us. She wrote every bit of it.

A (70:17)

Wow. That's wonderfully cool.

D (70:20)

Yeah.

C (70:21)

Russell had the idea of sort of. We'd written our first book. I would say maybe the hard way. And Russell and I are better architects than writers, to say the least. But Russell knew that Lucy was an art history person and a writer in college and sort of said, why don't we get Lucy to do it? And I'm like, are you sure? I mean, because this could. This could go sideways. And it didn't. And I think it was great because Lucy's known us her whole life. Russell, too. Our families know each other. She's not scared of us. She just. She gave it right back to us and said, that's not a very good story. We need to do better. But it also brought a lot to the humor in the book. I think if you read it, there's some really engaging essays. And our theory about all of our books has been to try to give you information to where you feel like you know what you're looking at. And that's why the plans are there, and that's why they're on the whole piece of property, so you understand their context and that the essay is there to. Is to tell a piece of the story that a drawing or photographs can't tell. I thought that. I thought this one came out really nicely in regard to all that solely did a good job, too, designing it.

A (71:28)

I think the photography is beautiful as well.

C (71:32)

A lot of talented people out there, too, that are. That are helping us look good.

A (71:36)

Yeah.

C (71:39)

Thank you both for having us on today.

A (71:41)

Oh, my gosh.

C (71:43)

Absolute pleasure.

A (71:46)

All right, that's our show. And that's our show. You can find all of the show notes on our website blog howtodecorate.com podcast.

B (71:54)

To send in a decorating dilemma, email your questions to podcastallarddesigns.net so we can help you with your space.

A (72:00)

And of course, be sure to follow us on social media at ballardesigns. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts so you never miss an episode. And please leave us a review. We'd love to hear your feedback. Until next time. Happy decorating.