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- [00:02]
A
Welcome to how to Decorate from Ballard Designs, a weekly podcast all about the trials and triumphs of decorating and redecorating your home. I'm Caroline. I'm on the marketing team.
- [00:11]
B
And I'm Taryn and I'm a product designer.
- [00:13]
C
I'm Liz. I head up the creative team.
- [00:15]
D
We're your hosts.
- [00:16]
A
Join the expert team at Ballard Designs for tips, tricks and tales from interior designers, stylists, and other talents in the design world.
- [00:22]
B
Plus, we'll answer your decorating dilemmas at the end of each episode.
- [00:25]
C
We love answering your questions, so don't forget to email us@podcastallardesigns.net now, on with the show.
- [00:34]
A
All right, we have got a treat for y' all today. New York Times bestseller and Boston based interior designer Erin Gates is back on the show to talk about her new book, her Forever Home, and how to create timeless and enduring spaces. It's a short intro because we got a lot to get to. Erin, welcome back to the show.
- [00:51]
D
Thank you for having me.
- [00:53]
A
Okay, your first book, Elements of Style, same name as your blog, was published in 2014, was a runaway success as we were talking about lots of reprints, hundreds of thousands of copies sold, and you wrote your. That was 2014. You wrote your second book in 2019, and here you are six years later, your third book, Elements of Timeless Style.
- [01:15]
D
Yes.
- [01:17]
A
You mentioned in the introduction that you never planned to write a third book. So where, where did this come from? What was it that you needed to say in this third book?
- [01:26]
D
It wasn't that I needed to say anything specifically. It was that I really like things in threes. Bizarre. Like, I was like, two felt wrong and I was like, I really was torn. And I had said no, and I had not planned on running another one. But Covid hit and I had some time, and although we got really, really busy actually during COVID but this was at the beginning and I had bought my new house. And my editor at the time, who has since retired, kept texting me, I really think this house is a book. I really think this house is a book. And I'm like, oh, no. And then she wore me down. She wore me down. I was like, okay. And then they, like, you know, offer you a certain amount of money, and you're like, yeah, I. I should probably do one more. One more. But also, I hadn't been able to do a book where. And this is how this book differs from the other two, where it's all my work and it's by project, it's not by type which is both the first and second book are by, you know, kitchen, living room, primary bedroom. And this is nine full homes, different types and styles. And I thought not only would that be nice to have a record of, but also talk about this home that I really do feel is where I'll be, if not forever, for a very, very significantly long time. And I just got. I felt like a lot of books and content was flipping and more like quick fixes or. Or the opposite, like, completely unreachable design. So this is kind of like what I see and what I work with every day, which is like a certain, you know, size or type of house and type of family that wants to create something permanent or, you know, designing for themselves, not for resale. So that was kind of the impetus for the.
- [03:30]
B
Yeah.
- [03:31]
A
So you. I love. Well, first off, I love the introduction because I used to read your blog and, you know, as you've gotten busier, like, you've had a lot of life since your last book, and so it was fun to kind of get that little update on everything going on and, you know, talked about. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so honest. And you talk about finding your house, this forever house. So walk us through that. Like, you know, it's kind of a fun story, you know, not thinking that it was right and then showing up. So give everybody that whole story and, yeah, you know, tee us up.
- [04:13]
D
So we were, you know, the house I was in that I featured in the second book, we finally, after we had Emma during the pandemic, and we were all locked inside, and we. That house was small. It was like 1500 square feet, and there were three of us. And at the time, I had two caregivers for my kids who were actually taking care of each different child because I didn't want them over. Long story, but Covid really made me a little bit nutty. And being postpartum during COVID was a whole other hurdle, which I do talk about. So I was like, we need more space. We need a bigger yard. Like, all the things that I didn't think were that important pre Covid became, like, very important. Like, I need room for an office. I need room. I need a gym. I need, like, a big yard. I need, you know, all these different things. And so we started looking, and I made offers on so many houses I can't even count. And none of them came together. And I do think there is. Sometimes it's heartbreaking, and sometimes it's for a reason. And this house came on, and my husband was like, that house we've driven by in Wellesley is for sale. And I'm like, we're not buying that house. It's on a main road. Like, it's on a main road. Like. And I'd seen it a million times. Like, if you drive through my town, it's like, very prominent. And I mean, it's set back from the road, but it's just a really charming, beautiful, stately kind of home. And working for other designers, I'd come out here all the time, and I'd always clocked it and been like, that's such a pretty house. And. But I was like, absolutely not. Like, location, location, location. Busy road. Big no. That's a big no. But it has this like 40 foot long white picket fence in the front. And it's just. It is really, like, it does have some good curb appeal. So I was like, still no. I was like, but you can go and look at it. And so he went with my dad, who's an architectural designer and real estate developer. And my dad usually shoots down every house I show on. He, like, finds every single flaw. And so I was like, yeah, take him with you. And my dad called me like, five minutes after they got here, and he was like, get your butt over here. This is your house. And I was like, what, are you crazy? Like, the house on the busy road, you're. You're always telling me, location, location. So I came over and it was like a packed, packed open house. And they already had an offer before the open house was even over. And everyone's in masks and, you know, it was still that time where it was like October 2020. And I walked through and then we walked into the back. And from the street, you can't tell that this house has a massive, like, backyard. We are on an acre, which here is a ton of land. It's semi, you know, it's not. It's suburban, but, like, you can get into Boston in 15, 20 minutes. So we went out back and we were like, there's like, woods back here. And, like, we could put like, who knows, a pool. There was a barn with three stories. I was like, holy crap. And all the systems had been redone. The roof had been redone, the windows had been redone, but the interior hadn't been redone, which for me is like, bingo, because I don't. I like my money where I can see it. Like, I'm glad someone else had updated. And they were frankly low balling the house. So I was like, maybe this is my house. So we did put an Offer in. And there ended up being like four or five by the end of the day, that first day. And this wasn't even when the real estate market was hot. Like, this was still. People were like, what's Covid going to do the world? And so we found out that the owners had lived here for 25 years and raised three daughters here and put them all through the school system. And we wrote them a letter and with a picture of our family and, you know, told them, like, we will be stewards the next stewards. We're only the fourth owners of this house, and it was built in 1895, and they picked us, which was awesome. And so we ended up getting the house. And it was the first time I've ever bought a property and not had an absolute mental breakdown thinking I'd made the wrong decision after finding out we got it. So I felt like that was a sign.
- [08:38]
B
So awesome. Yeah. And it's such a beautiful home.
- [08:42]
D
It's. Yeah, it's not at all what I ever thought I would buy. Like, I am a colonial Greek revival girl through and through, through and through. And this is like empire style, so it's like, got a lot of French elements to it, but the windows are like, floor to ceiling. They're massive, and I Love that. And 11ft. The ceilings are 11ft in my kitchen and family room. And it's like the basement was a good height and we could, you know, it was already partially finished. And all these. So many window seats. Love a window seat. It was just like all these little things that added up to be, like, it smacked me right in the face. Like, this is. This is for sure it. And thankfully we got it.
- [09:26]
A
Yeah. Has your. Has this new house changed your. The way you design it all? You think? Like, has it changed your perspective at all?
- [09:36]
D
Yes and no. I would say, you know, you have to kind of. It's tested me in as far as, like, you have to respond to the environment and scale. Like, my last house, my ceilings were 7 foot 6. So to move into something with 11, you really have to, you know, get back into the shape of, like, okay, I gotta really focus on the scale of stuff as opposed to just like, oh, I like that couch. You have to think like, oh, the seat in the back need to be a certain height in order for it to not feel totally minuscule in this room at 11ft. So I think, like, scale, I think, became important. And as we did so we did two renovations. I think each renovation I learned a lot, and I made smarter and smarter Decisions as I went along, and I made a couple really dumb ones, which I'll happily admit everyone does it, even designers. But I think, like, this house is more elegant than my last house. My last house was definitely a little more casual and typical. This house is a little bit unique and a little bit more dramatic, so I'm kind of leaning more into that side. But. Okay, let's see. I. I bought. It's been five years I've been here. It'll be five years in October that we bought it, and I'm ready to start over, which is ridiculous. And it's like, not, like, renovate, but, like, I'm already like, yeah. Like, I'm happy with all the renovation choices I made. It's like, well, maybe a new chair in here, some new drapes in here.
- [11:08]
C
He's like, okay, so an evolution versus a renovation.
- [11:12]
D
Yeah, I think it is an evolution. Like, I would never get rid of, like, the mural wallpaper in my dining room. Never. It was first decision I made when we bought this house, and it will never change. Mark my words. That will never change. I. It's just something that is so classic and permanent, but then you can tweak things. Like, I was too scared when we moved in to do a bolder color drape in there. It's just. I was like, I can't do that. Like, that's not safe. You know? It's like. And now it's been five years. I'm like, you know what? This paper would look better with a really bright chartreuse drape. That would be so amazing in here. Like, I've matured to trust myself within my own home even more now. So it's not that things, like, I would never rip anything out at this point. It would be more of, like, tweaking what I've started as I grow older and the kids get bigger and our needs change. So I think that's why I hope this book is helpful. Is that, like, the stuff that's nailed down? Literally? Like, you've got to be super smart about what you choose, and you can have fun, but, like, you're putting a lot of money and investment into those choices. And, like, I wouldn't change my kitchen. I wouldn't change my bathroom. I wouldn't change any of that. My drapes. Sure.
- [12:25]
A
Anything that's soft or soft. Good seating. Like, those are always sort of. I feel like, in flux.
- [12:30]
D
They are.
- [12:31]
A
Because especially for someone like you, you see so many things all the time. You know, there's always a new fabric and A new color.
- [12:37]
D
And it's the hardest part.
- [12:39]
A
New collection.
- [12:40]
D
And, yeah, it's like, oh, well, now you see everything. This is why it's so hard, at least for me. And I feel like most designers, it's. I am my worst client by far. Like, talk about not being able to make up her mind. It's because I see, like, everything every day. I'm in, like, absolutely overwhelmed with all the options in the world. And it's like I always say, I'm like, I could have a modern house, and I would do it this way, and I could have, like, a really formal house, and I could have a country house, and I could do a bungalow. And, like, I'm like, I need more houses because they can't all come out in this house. But it is. Yeah, it's stuff that, you know you want to buy well with certain things and buy once with certain things. And then there's other things that you just know you'll be updating or changing as your tastes evolve or your kids get stuff messed up happens.
- [13:38]
A
Well, I do think that's a great lesson, actually, for listeners, because. Because there's so much. It's easy to want all of it and to fall in love with lots of things, but using your own house and your own situation as your guardrails, just like you would buying an outfit if you're like, oh, like, that's not going to flatter me.
- [13:57]
D
Yeah.
- [13:57]
A
Like, is it going to flatter your house? You know, keep that same sort of mentality, because you could go in any direction. But that doesn't mean you should. You know that. Yes, exactly. It doesn't mean you should.
- [14:09]
D
Yeah. I think it's like, there's nothing that bugs me more is when you're trying to force something into a house that obviously it's not right for just because you're like, oh, well, it's cool and so. And so has it. Well, doesn't really matter. Like, there are really cool, super modern things that I adore that would just not work in this house. Like, there's modern little aspects of my house, and I love that mix. But like. Or, like, very country things or very, like, a color that's not going to really work but doesn't. You can appreciate them. But you're right. Like having the guardrails of, like. I think it's really important to respect the architectural style of your house and not try to stray super far from that and having touchstones in the interior that reflects that era of your home. And I mean, unless it's a, you know, 20, 26 modern farmhouse. Like, there's gotta be some touchstones of, like, where. Where. When this was built and who's lived here. And I just. I love that. Adding that to a house and kind of using that as some of my inspiration. So, yeah, I want to make sure that it feels organic.
- [15:20]
A
And you definitely do that in the projects, you know, because the format of the book, the first half is really your own house, your Jo renovating your forever home, and then the back half is all of the nine projects. And there is so much variety in there, which I love to see. There was. There was a lot of layered color. There was city. There was, you know, coastal. There was so much.
- [15:42]
D
There's like, yeah, country. Like, my clients are very varied, and I think what I am proud. The. Like, the most proud of for our firm and for me as a designer is that I really, truly do not have a standard look that. Especially in this book, I think you can see that. That it. We really do try to filter our clients taste through our lens and our expertise. And I think you can go from, like, one project that's, like, very California country rustic to another one that's, like, sleek and dark and, like, more modern, and then another, you know, like a condo in New York and, like, and then a beach house, like, in Maine. Like, there are that variety, and I think each one looks so different, and. And I think that's what I am most proud of, I think, is that ability for us to really make these individual and unique homes that reflect our clients and not necessarily like, oh, Aaron Gates must have done this house. Yeah. Which is great. And it works for a lot of people. And it's. And. And, you know, sometimes I envy that because everything looks cohesive in their portfolio, and mine is, like, all over the place. But it is kind of exciting to be working on multiple projects at once that are vastly different in aesthetic because it gets your creative juices flowing, and you can't get lazy.
- [17:09]
A
Do you ever sort of, maybe not intentionally, but unintentionally use something from one to another? You know, like, for example, if you're like, oh, I just did this thing that was, like, really coastal, and we use X, Y, Z. But I could kind of work here in a different way.
- [17:27]
D
Oh, yeah.
- [17:28]
A
Because that could be kind of funny.
- [17:29]
D
We always joke there are, like, certain things that you could probably do, like a Where's Waldo in our projects and, like, find the same, like, either, like, some accessory, like, there's, like, a couple vases. I really love and buy for, like, every project or, like, ottomans that I just. But you'll see almost. It's. It's embarrassing, but, like, I use the same counter stool all the time because it's the best counter stool.
- [17:54]
B
That was going to be my joke.
- [17:55]
D
Yeah. Yeah. Every project but two has the same exact counter soul. And I didn't even notice that until we put the book together and I actually saw it all together and I was like, oh, my God, Aaron. Like, but it really is like, we show people other versions and they're like, no, I want that one. The one that you have. And I'm like, yeah, but there's so many other ones. But it really is.
- [18:15]
B
It's a good one.
- [18:16]
D
Yeah. Lawson Fanning. It's. It's amazing. And it's exactly. It's like, it fits with modern, it fits with traditional. It fits with, like, it's just a great. It's really comfortable, so it just works. And same with, like, there's. There was something else. There's like a. A certain dining chair I really, really like that I've used in multiple. I've used in the city condo. I've used in my own home. I've used in a coastal home. Like, there are some pieces that are just so good that you can use them literally anywhere. There are.
- [18:47]
A
Yeah. It's what you put them with that. That really tailors it to them.
- [18:50]
D
It's how you upholster it. It's what you pair it with. It's the finishes you choose. It's, you know, it's all of that. And there are some things that are real chameleons that really can work just about anywhere. So, yes, we definitely have favorites. I mean, that is absolutely not to say that we don't reuse certain pieces a lot because they're tried and true. And I think people also are like, yeah, well, if you love it, I'm like, I can stand there and say, I know this is super comfortable. I know it's durable. I know it's great. It's a good, you know, all these things, and.
- [19:25]
B
They come in multiple finishes, so.
- [19:26]
D
That's exactly.
- [19:27]
B
So.
- [19:28]
D
Yeah.
- [19:28]
A
And you know, the Louis chair, there's. There's a lot of Louis.
- [19:31]
D
A lot of those are vintage, but there are, like, some are new, some are like, you can't really always tell. Like, one might be from a high end place, but the ones in my home are from Cherished, and I got them for like, all 12 for, like $400. So it's like, you know, like, you can either. Like, there's different levels of that style, but that style dining chair is never going to away. Like, it looks good with a modern table. It looks great with a traditional table. It depends on the fabric you choose and the finish. And it's just. Yeah, it just works. There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with some good classics. Classics are classics for a reason.
- [20:13]
A
Yeah. Well, and plus, you know, if when you are buying those pieces, you can, I guess, rest easy that you can use them in the next. Yeah, a next house, maybe if you're not in your forever home.
- [20:24]
D
Yeah. Oh, there.
- [20:25]
A
No matter what, you know, where you move to, like there, you'll find a place for it.
- [20:29]
D
Yes, some. Something, that's for sure. And I've reupholstered stuff I've had stuff I've brought. There's pieces I've brought from all from God, like my first condo, probably still here. Like, there are pieces that are just worth hanging on to and are just always going to be in style because they're just really well made and the design is enduring.
- [20:51]
A
You talk in the book about encouraging, well, doing it yourself and also encouraging your clients to live in their house for a while, if they can, before renovating, so that you can really think through all of the decisions and make sure that they're what you really want. So I'm curious if there's anything that you changed course on after living in your house or things you did differently maybe than you initially thought, and just some examples that that might help people.
- [21:22]
D
I think, because we did our renovation in two phases. Our initial renovation was just kind of like redoing two bathrooms and a facelift on the kitchen. If I had done the full gut at the outset, I probably would have made some mistakes. One of them being like, we thought we could get everything within our footprint that we had for our kitchen renovation, and after living in it, we realized we couldn't. So while our addition was really minimal, basically we enclosed our side porch to become our mudroom and we turned our old mud room into a butler's pantry, which I was. Didn't think I needed. But then after having two kids get busier and older and realizing, like, our kitchen has like four cased openings coming into it, so there's limited wall space, I was like, we really do need. And I don't think I would have put that addition on if I had done it before I moved in. So we did live here for two years before we did the big renovation. I also ended up, instead of expanding this room was my, my primary when we moved in. And instead of expanding this into a bigger primary, we ended up combining two rooms on the other side of the house to become the primary and reshuffling things. Where the laundry room is now, where my closet was and there. And in this room specifically. Like, we ended up putting these little closets in with jib doors because we had to remove the. Like there was just a lot of, A lot more moving around of things, of locations than I would have expected at the beginning. And I think it's some. But it doesn't always have to be that big. Like, it's also like even if you're just in a house for six months before you pull the plug on a renovation, like when. What door are you using all the time? You assume you're going to use this front door or whatever, but maybe you end up coming in a different door. And when you do, do you have a place to put your keys in your mail down? Do you not like little things like that? Like where you kind of see how the flow works day to day with your lifestyle and, and how you live in a space and how much storage you actually need or how high traffic a certain area is? I think it's really, it's really helpful and beneficial to take that time to really just try living in it for a bit before you finalize a renovation plan or order furniture because maybe the orientation of the sofa where you thought it would go, the sun sets right in your eyes or something, you know, and you can't see the tv. Like there are little things that just kind of will lock you in if you make the decision without actually being in a space for some time.
- [24:08]
A
Yeah. I would think natural light would. Could be a big one too. You know, if you're renovating and not. You can never get a feel for the natural light when you're just touring it before buying. You know, it's. It's something that you really have to especially. And even like all, all the different seasons.
- [24:23]
D
Yeah, yeah. It's just helpful. And like I'm about to start a kitchen renovation where this family did they live for a year. And it's like she's like, the kitchen is now fallen apart, but now I know exactly what I want and I'm like, great. Like, you know, it sucks in the moment, but long term it's. You gain so much knowledge living in a space and you also find the quirks, you know, like.
- [24:48]
B
But yeah, and financially too. And you speak to that like you, you've learned to, like, hold off. It's going to cost a lot of money. So, like, take a second, take a beat, make sure it's what you want. And that's what you did with the phase one. And then like, all right, and we're going to do a big one, but we're going to wait. Like, how do we make this livable?
- [25:08]
D
And that's why I wanted. I really wanted to convey that in the book because it felt wasteful at the time. When I did my second rent, I really assumed I wanted my first renovation, my facelift renovation. I was like, I need this to be good enough that I'll be happy here for five to eight years. Because I really didn't think the big renovation was going to happen that soon. It happened only after two and a half years. So that's why I tried to repurpose a lot of the things that I did use in that initial facelift. The same, you know, the same plumbing fixtures, lighting. I even reused the counters we replaced in the main kitchen. We ended up saving them and cutting them down and using them in the butler's pantry. Because I wanted to feel like, well, that wasn't all money out the window, but I do think, like, you have. I knew I didn't want to do that gut Renault until I could do it 100% to the max, like, the exact way I wanted it, with the custom hood and the, you know, all the things. It's better to wait and spend more later than to get impatient and spend less, because you're not. You're ultimately not going to be as happy. And then you may end up redoing it again anyway. And to get it to where you really wanted it to go. And then you're spending more money than you would have if you just waited. It's patience is not my favorite thing, nor one on a scale that I'm, you know, talented at. But in this case, I tried to do the right thing by, like, phasing it out. And of course, we kept, like, the bathrooms that we renovated exactly the same. But the kitchen did end up changing a lot. So I hope that shows people a. What you can do on a limited budget with a facelift, but also that, like, waiting is. You can. You can. You can create something that's temporary and still really pretty to get you through until you can really, like, do exactly what you want. It goes for furniture, too. Like, same thing. Doesn't always have to be a renovation, like, buy something temporary that's really cheap and wait or keep what you have and wait until what you really want is within your range.
- [27:19]
C
I love your honesty about your own renovation and, like, you know where to go high and where to go low on all of the materials. And I also really loved all of the takeaways after every project. I thought that was just really fantastic. And it's just great to know that even the experts are learning from their renovations just as much as we are.
- [27:43]
D
Yes.
- [27:43]
C
So what do you think your biggest learnings were from either your own home renovation or from any of the projects that you feature?
- [27:52]
D
I think over time, I would say hiring the best people you can, that you can afford will save you money in the long run. Even if it's more expensive. Like, in this business, there's a lot of people that will lowball you and to get the bit, to get the work. And I see this all the time with my clients, and, you know, it's. It's enticing to look at that low, low number and be like, well, of course, why would I go with something else? But you've gotta look at it holistically and make sure you do. You know, you check references and you make sure that these are good people to work with. I think, luckily, I haven't had a horrific experience personally, but I have clients who have, and it's so heartbreaking. So I think because it's financially and emotionally, really, really taxing. So I think overall, all my years of designing, that is my number one takeaway, is hire people you are happy to be with and talk to and collaborate with who listen to you, who respect you, who. Who will shoot straight and be honest about the things that go wrong and take accountability for those mistakes. It happens to all of us. I mean, if I mess up, I'm the first one to be like, this chair came in. It doesn't fit. My bad. I own it now. And we're going to pick a new chair, but there are people who won't do that. And so I think it's like taking your time to really interview and hire people that you trust and enjoy. This is a. You know, creating homes, whether it's building, renovating, decorating. It's a very personal, long process. So I am happy that I've had a ton of repeat clients and that a lot of my clients become friends and. Because I really think it's. It's just such a intimate prospect. Yeah, that is truly, like, the biggest, I think, most important takeaway for me also, like, natural, natural marble and natural stone. Don't be scared of it, everyone.
- [30:12]
B
I like that you wrote that in there.
- [30:14]
D
And I'm like, yeah, it's gonna etch, it's gonna stain. But, like, you cannot fake it. There are some really. There are good quartzes out there. I use them all the time because so many people are scared. I just think natural stone gets such a bad rap. And, like, I've never regretted using it, and none of my clients have. I mean, okay, maybe there's a client or two who's, like, really particular. You have to know yourself and know, like, what's going to make you crazy. But I think that's also something that I don't know. And also just, like, check everything. Read every document, double check every contract, double check every proposal. Don't assume that it's perfect. It's fine. There's no mistakes. Read it. Read it. I catch stuff all the time and I've missed stuff. So, you know, don't trust that everybody's got your best interest at heart, necessarily. And that's not to sound, like, negative. It's just, like, make sure that you're doing your homework. Make sure you're. You're reviewing everything and that it is exactly how you want it so that you don't get stuck with, like, oh, shoot, I didn't mean to pick polished nickel. I meant to pick brass or something on, like, a window latch. You know, like, it is a lot of details, and that's why having a designer and professionals to help you is really important. But also, even as. As a designer, we've also, like, for every single client, have to make sure that we're going over all the nitty gritty. It's not the sexy part, but it's really essential to getting a good product. Yeah.
- [31:43]
C
I mean, you talked about your kitchen cabinets and. Oh, I just.
- [31:47]
A
Oh, gosh.
- [31:48]
C
Oh, my stomach just turned for you.
- [31:51]
D
Yeah. Yeah, it was really disappointing.
- [31:54]
A
You look ill just thinking about it.
- [31:56]
D
Well, it was. Yeah. I mean, it was. It was all, you know, it's not just, you know, cabinets coming in wrong. It's. We had moved out and paid for a rental on top of our mortgage on top of the construction for six months so that we didn't have to live without a kitchen. And then we had to move back in without a kitchen for two months with kids, which is a lot. You know, we made it work and it was fine. And it was a lesson for a lot of people, myself included. And ultimately, like, this is, you know, one of the things. You work with good people, and everybody figures out what their. But their part was in it. And it was, you know, also, like, don't rush. If it's going to take longer, it's going to take longer. And, you know, like, I should have insisted on certain things that I didn't because I was feeling like, oh, I should just, you know, I know everyone. Like, if it's. This is. And it was a huge bummer for everyone. It was really tough. But now everything's got corrected. My kitchen is gorgeous.
- [32:58]
C
It is stunning.
- [32:59]
D
I love it. It's really lovely. Everything is kind of. I mean, having cabinets up to 11ft, there's a lot of step stool been happening. I'd originally planned to do, like, a library ladder in there. Thank God I didn't, because it would have always been in the way. Probably would have ripped the thing off the wall by now if it had actually happened. But.
- [33:19]
A
Okay, that is my question with you.
- [33:21]
D
Yes.
- [33:22]
A
I'm always like, where do you put it when you're trying to open that?
- [33:25]
D
We did do one, actually, in the house, the Lincoln project that we ended up doing it. I don't think it's in there. We ended up adding it, but where you can have really thin ones that hang on the wall that you just. And then the rail stays. It's not rolling. So it's like you take it off. It's on hooks that hangs flush with the wall, and it's like a thin, like a brass material. And then you bring it out and hook it onto the rail and use it to go up and down. But, yes, unless your kitchen is literally, like, massive, you are going to run. Stub your toe on that thing, like, all the time. I mean, I have one in my office, and my office is gigantic. It's very large, and there's enough space, but we still find ourselves, like, get out of the. Get out of your ladder. Like, it's just. Yeah. So that is one thing that I. Last minute was like, yeah, I don't think this. I think I'm going to hate this. Visually, I love it. But I think functionally, you know, we have to think about function first and beauty second. And functionally, this is gonna make me insane and probably cause, like, a broken foot. So I eliminated. But yes, we have to have a step stool that we pull out all the time to get up high. So things that we don't use every day go up really, really high. And then. Yeah, my husband is 6 foot 4, so he can reach a lot of it. That's helpful.
- [34:44]
A
You're tall, too, so give me a boost.
- [34:47]
D
So we do have, like, someone needs to make a prettier step ladder. Perhaps it should be me, but like, I don't know, but like one that has like four step. Like I need like a four. Not just like one of the little baby cute ones. I need like four steps and none of them are like.
- [35:02]
A
Actually, you know, front gate has a good one.
- [35:04]
D
Oh, really?
- [35:05]
A
Have you seen the front gate?
- [35:06]
C
They are really good.
- [35:06]
D
No, but.
- [35:07]
C
And they come in different colors.
- [35:08]
D
Work with them all the time. It's. Mine's like mint green. Like it is a cute color. I want one that looks like antique but isn't antique and gonna give me like tetanus. You know, it won't be like every time you open it. Oh, Cindy.
- [35:28]
A
Oh, they actually do have a bra.
- [35:30]
D
Oh, really?
- [35:30]
A
I like that you're shopping.
- [35:32]
D
I know. I like that we're actively shopping during the podcast. Well, you know, Kate, Kate, BB and I are like besties.
- [35:37]
A
If I don't do it now, then I will forget and then I'll interview.
- [35:42]
D
So that's hilarious. I'm doing my whole My Patio with Frank Gate right now. Oh no. Exciting.
- [35:49]
A
Can't wait. Can't wait to see it. Well, you did. You did one already.
- [35:55]
D
I did originally and now we maybe it was a different renovated. Yeah. So we just finished. This is our la. I say our last project. I'm lying, but it's almost. Our last project was putting in a brand new patio and fire pit. And so we needed. It's much bigger, so we needed some different furniture. So we partner with them to do some fun stuff we'll shoot in the fall.
- [36:18]
A
Okay. So you know, this is your forever house. Or as forever as you're willing to.
- [36:24]
D
Like, don't quote me, but yeah.
- [36:26]
A
Yeah, just get a second and a third. Yeah, fine. Yeah, exactly what we're. I'm always curious about designing, knowing that you're going to be somewhere for a long time because sometimes there are just things that you don't know that you're going to need until you need them.
- [36:42]
D
Right.
- [36:43]
A
So I'm curious how you thought through like, okay, how is this going to live 5 years, 10 years, 15 plus? And were there any things that you specifically added or didn't do knowing that, you know, your kids aren't going to be 4 and 9 prolong and that kind of thing.
- [37:02]
D
Yeah, well, I mean, with kids rooms, I almost always am really very conscious of how temporary, like juvenile stuff can be. So with most kids rooms, you'll notice that like walls and drapes are very much ageless. And then it's like, the fun accents that like my daughter's room, like, she's got bow wood wallpaper. Like that is. Could be a guest room. It could be anything. Like, the bed, too. Could be a guest bed. It's not like kid, but then her bookcase is like a dollhouse. And, you know, there's like, fun little kid touches. Same for Henry's room. So I think long term with the more expensive permanent things and then more temporary with the movable pieces. I think as far as, like, the rest of the house, we made our playroom more something that could easily transition into a guest suite on the bottom floor that has its own entrance. And we added a shower down there to make a full bath. So I was thinking more long term that this won't always be a playroom, that this could be. We did get rid of a 4K, a fourth, fifth technical bedroom. Fifth, fifth that we had when we made our primary suite. It was really not a bedroom. I mean, it was a teeny, tiny room that could have a twin bed with, like, a tiny closet. But we would like a space for guests to sleep. So I wanted to make sure that playroom really could easily transition into something longer term. But I think for the most part, the only thing that this house would be a problem with is aging in place. It is very vertical. I have four floors. You know, having elderly parents now, I'm like, oh, yeah, this. This will not work when we are 75. So I say forever. I say, you know, as long as our legs are working, you know, I have people like, do things like think ahead, and they put in space for an elevator while they're building. They don't necessarily add it now, but they block it out in a house because they know they want to stay forever or they do at an elevator, and they just kind of keep it. There are things like that that I think you think far ahead about. But as far as this house, I don't think there's much that I need to change functionally as we're here over the next. I mean, if my son ends up being seven feet tall, it might be a problem because upstairs is the lower ceilings. But cross that bridge, it's not looking that way. Ceilings. That was the attic, so ceilings up on the top floor really low. But, you know, for. For now, it's fine. He could always switch into this room.
- [39:45]
A
Darren, I was curious what you. How you liked the book since you sort of built your forever house. Not to put you on the spot or anything.
- [39:55]
D
Now it's your interview.
- [39:58]
A
Right?
- [39:59]
B
I Feel like I appreciate it again, I. You talked about phase one and phase two and had lived in a ranch and very much did a. What I would say was phase one, which was again making the ranch livable before we would eventually knock down because it just was not a great frame. So. But with the forever home, it is like you said of where there were ways I thought we would use the house that now have changed in the sense of where the kids play. Even. Even knowing like what you. You've put like right outside my office is a big area to play. Nobody plays there. So, you know, it is very much learning how spaces can be used and that every space could be something else is kind of nice.
- [40:49]
D
Yeah.
- [40:51]
B
But I mean, looking at your work, all I thought was, ugh, I wish I had Aaron's style. That was what my true thought was. I was like, all your spaces are just so beautiful and so finished. And I. You do speak to that in your book. But like we've been in here four years and you know, we just spent so much building as one does. And so like it is. It's the slow time of like gathering the things to complete the vision.
- [41:24]
D
Yeah.
- [41:24]
B
And to your point, trying to complete them before I change my mind.
- [41:28]
D
Exactly. But also leaving room to add. Like there is also, and I do respect this. Sometimes I like really want to like finish a whole space for a client and they're like, well, we want to wait and see what we find on our travels as far as like art or like accessories. And I really respect that because I do also like doing that. So you have to leave yourself if you feel like it. You're. This is a home that's going to be a long term residence. Like giving yourself that breathing room and not rushing to fill every corner is also like a smart way to go. And not feeling the pressure to make it like absolutely perfect from the get go and knowing that you will probably tweak some things just like I am now. Like, yeah, I mean, I'm like, yeah, I didn't think I would replace these custom drapes. But you know what? Facebook Marketplace is great and you can resell stuff and someone else will be so happy to have your custom drapes that they have and you can make that choice that you were too scared to make five years ago or something like that, you know, like, I think you have to give yourself a little grace as you do. Everyone's growing and changing all the time. And you can make a. Not 75% of your choices can be timeless and forever. And then that is always going to be a 25%. That's going to shift and change and grow.
- [42:49]
A
Yeah, well, that's the fun of it too.
- [42:51]
D
Exactly, exactly.
- [42:53]
A
Always getting to have an opportunity to tweak something.
- [42:56]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [42:56]
A
Make it better. So you don't want to take away that.
- [42:58]
D
Yeah, no.
- [42:59]
B
I would be so bored.
- [43:00]
D
So bored. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The thrill of the hunt. I mean, it's like great when you're like, oh, I've been looking for something for this space forever and now you found it. And yeah. Good thing you didn't waste money on something that was only. Ho hum.
- [43:15]
B
You speak also to just using this, your space. Like if this is what your home and you're going to be in it for a while. Like, like you took away rooms in your space and you're like, yeah, would somebody do that? No, but this is ours and we. Why continue to focus on the resale.
- [43:34]
D
Yeah. Like, and if you look at like that's the number one thing everyone told me I was insane for doing is in my family room. If you look at the before, I did put a lot of before pictures of the house when we bought it because there was like, our family room was open with like windows on all three sides and there was this half wall and there was like an electric fireplace and like they had their TV like balanced on top of it because there were windows above the staircase going down to the basement. And I'm like, I want a built in wall. And that was the only space and it was to build it basically in front of three windows and but the rest of the room has a gajillion windows. So it's not like I'm losing like this enormous amount of light and I'm gaining a gas fireplace and bookshelves and storage for toys. Because you build a playroom, your kids are playing in the kitchen and in the family room like all the time.
- [44:27]
A
No one plays in the playroom.
- [44:28]
D
I mean, my kids actually, thank God knock on wood, have just started like going down and I just. They're there for a long time. It's great. But at the beginning they weren't and like builders, everyone was like, you're really gonna put a wall here?
- [44:42]
A
And I'm like, yes, I'm really gonna.
- [44:43]
D
Put a wall here because it's really gonna make the space work for me. And now they put it up. Everyone's like, what a genius idea.
- [44:52]
A
You tried to talk me out of it.
- [44:53]
D
Yeah. And anyway, legal bedroom is probably on paper. Realtors can tell you you're not but it wasn't really a legal bedroom. Someone's coming to. If they really need a five bedroom house, they're not buying this house. It's a four bedroom house with a playroom that could be a guest room in the basement. Legally. Probably could be a fifth bedroom. But whatever you gotta. I mean is dead. Do it for you and your family and what you need. Totally.
- [45:18]
C
I was going to ask about the barn.
- [45:20]
D
Yeah, because.
- [45:22]
C
Because that's one thing you kind of.
- [45:24]
D
You just touched on in the book.
- [45:25]
C
But you didn't really talk about.
- [45:27]
A
Teased I know.
- [45:30]
C
What a, what a special thing to have on your property.
- [45:33]
D
I didn't even know driving by. I never saw it because it's like tucked in the back. And when I pulled in I was like, holy crap. And then you go around back and there's a whole lower the. The land swoop. So down below there's two garage bays like with barn doors. And so there's like a lofted area that actually my entire office moved into during COVID when we were in between offices. We worked out of the top floor of the barn off a ping pong table. And the second level is our gar garage. That's where our cars go. And then blower right now is just all yard stuff. And we put our outdoor furniture in there. But it's huge. And my dream was to put a pool down there and make the bottom level a pool house. Like the two barn doors being like into like a pool cabana with a kitchenette and a bathroom. We quoted that. It was like the most insane amount of money I've ever scene. So that will not be happening anytime in the near future. So we just did our patio. I mean it was, it was like almost a million dollars. It was insane.
- [46:41]
A
Wow.
- [46:42]
D
Great. Not a huge pool with a patio and a pool house and landscaping. Like it's crazy up here. I was like, I'll just buy these house for that much money. No. So yeah, that was just some sticker shock I got. But you know another, like I'm not one of those designers who can just do anything like financially. That's just not in the cards for us. So as much as I would love and can envision that pool with like split rail fence and you know, it's not happening. So the barn is just the barn. Does the new big patio, my new big patio go in? Yeah, my patio is off the barn. No, it's, it's. It's next to the, the barn. But not. It doesn't go down beyond past where it Was there was going to be a cute little stone walkway down to the pool with, yeah, the whole. Very sad. But it would have been so pretty. So the barn is amazing because we can store a bunch of crap in it. But other than that it is. It's a post and beam uninsulated, you know, I don't want to insulate it. I don't want to ruin that character inside. It's just cool and it's. It's fun and maybe someday like Mike Henry will want to go play ping pong up on the top floor with his buddies. But you can also only use it like four weeks a year because it's either too cold or too hot up there. So not being insulated in New England is not exactly ideal. So it is cool. But it is just an empty barn full of stuff. Also furniture that I've kicked out is in the bar.
- [48:22]
C
Right. You've got your own storage space unit.
- [48:25]
D
Basically. There's a couch in there. There's like a French antique buffet. There's chairs, there's. Yeah, I'm like, someday I'm going to recover this stuff and use it somewhere. It's been five years. It's still there. Andrew's like, can we sell it? I'm like, no, it's good stuff.
- [48:42]
A
We'll see who knows what is next on your horizon. You said you finished your patio, but like what are some exciting projects you're working on? Either for clients or.
- [48:53]
D
Yeah, we're doing a bunch of new construction projects. Two on the north shore of Massachusetts that are. One is with an architect I love, Patrick Ahern and his team. One is like a really cool. Just on a cliff overlooking. It's just ocean. Three just insane views. That's like a stud. That's a ground up. We're just starting that and. And we're doing another new house down on the Connecticut shore that's really special. It's actually, it's. We did like us one couple's house and then this is. Their. The husband's brother then hired us to do their house down the street. And then the mom has now asked us to do their house. So it's like, it's a cute little familial thing for me. I think it's, you know, I'm really loving creating all the products on my brand. Rugs and mirrors and wallpaper and all of that and kind of even developing that further. And then I don't, I don't know. I think it's a time period of like figuring out what I want to do for the next five, ten years with this business. It could either go bigger, could be tighter. It could be. I'm not quite sure. I haven't really had time to think. So this is going to be a nice time period after the book tour to really ask myself, you know, heading into my. My God, I turned 46 next week, so heading into my 50s, like, what do I want to do? You know, status quo.
- [50:30]
A
You could do it all.
- [50:31]
D
Yeah, I could. Do I want to is the question. You know, there are things I really, really love doing, and. And there's other things I haven't done yet that I'd like to do. And I would. Yes, I would love to. I'm always looking for a mountain house in Vermont, so stay tuned. And I want to, like, you know, like, I could. Like, that could be some content. Not another book, but content. And also, like, I wanted to. I'd love to, like, buy some properties, renovate them and rent them and have them as rentals. So that's, like, kind of another thing I'd like to do. And that way I can get the different styles in different parts of the world and get that out of my system without having to redo this house. And, you know, I don't know. Something we always toss around as another side project to my other six side projects and my kids, you know, spending time with my kids, maybe.
- [51:29]
B
Maybe going on vacation.
- [51:31]
D
I might take them to Europe. They haven't been to Europe yet. Yeah. So that's, you know, and, you know, just enjoying what I've built and seeing where it goes. Yeah.
- [51:44]
A
Well, it's always fun to see what you've been working on and what you're up to.
- [51:49]
D
And thank you.
- [51:50]
A
The book is just a delight.
- [51:52]
D
Thank you.
- [51:53]
A
So. And it has another fabulous. Well, you can't see that, but another fabulous spine.
- [51:59]
D
Great spine. Yeah.
- [52:01]
B
And great tips and tricks all through. I like that.
- [52:04]
A
Every.
- [52:04]
D
All the paint colors, palettes. I thought it was, like, oh, so great. That is the number one question I get. Like, I have people call my office multiple times a week who are. Like, that project you did in 2009. What was the wall color in the living room? I'm like, I don't even know what you're talking about. Like, every project, it's, what color are the cabinets? What color the walls? A million times a day in my DMs. So I'm like, I think it's so important to put a palette, put it in the book. Like, here it is. Here's a sample. It's Not. Yeah, no, it's not going to look that way in your house, but you can go ahead and test it.
- [52:37]
A
Our PSA that we needed at the end of every episode. Test your paint swatches.
- [52:41]
D
Your paint swatches.
- [52:42]
A
It's not gonna look in your space like it does on the page or on the screen.
- [52:47]
D
Never even, like. And, you know, this is just something that happens, like printing the way pictures print or the resolution on your screen. Like, the color of my formal living room on the COVID of the book is not what it looks like in person. So it's like, even in that regard, like, it is. There is such. You don't ever say, oh, and blindly paint a room from a. From a picture. Like, you have to test. And you have to even take that picture and be like, what are colors? Like this? In different. Go lighter. Go. Go a little darker. Go a little lighter. Look at it in different times of day. Like, testing paint is. Yes, you're right.
- [53:24]
A
Liz and I want to put a sticker on our forehead that says, this image has been color corrected, lit, professionally printed on paper. Like, do not accept this as your paint color.
- [53:38]
D
It's gonna be on my headstone. Test your paint colors.
- [53:41]
B
But just being realistic, having the. This little, like, palette, though, does help, again, just to get things started, because.
- [53:50]
D
I think a lot of people are.
- [53:51]
B
Just don't even know where to start.
- [53:53]
D
Well, and a lot of people don't know how to do a whole home. You know, they're always like, well, if I paint this room, this color, what other colors should I use in other rooms? And it's like, it does show you how you can change up the tone and the color throughout a home. But you'll see in each palette, there's. There's definitely, like, consistency with the tones and the color. And obviously, you'll see we have favorite whites, we have favorite neutrals. We have. Yes, you can. You'll be able to tell, like, what our favorite white trim color is. But it. It is to see it all together, to see all those colors together and then look through and see how it flows through the house, I think is really helpful for people who don't know where to start. You're right. Yeah.
- [54:34]
A
Yeah. I feel like this is. Would be.
- [54:36]
D
Yeah.
- [54:36]
A
Great exercise for people.
- [54:38]
D
Yeah.
- [54:38]
A
If you are doing even just painting your whole house, get the color chips, put them all on a page together and just, like, look at them.
- [54:44]
D
Yeah.
- [54:45]
A
Now, like you said, test it on the wall.
- [54:46]
D
But yeah.
- [54:47]
A
Yeah. Seeing them side by side, you can see a continuity.
- [54:51]
D
Yeah.
- [54:51]
A
Whether that's in the saturation or the undertones. And it can help you definitely weed out maybe something that wouldn't work.
- [55:00]
D
Yeah, yeah. And yeah. Because it is intimidating. It is. It's. You know, I think a lot of people are like, well, I'm just gonna pick this one color and just paint my whole house this color. But when you shift it, like, even like certain cabinets or just painting trim, and we go through, you know, I go through a lot of that, like how to paint trim and transition from room to room, which is always a question I get because it is really intimidating. Like, how do you do that? What finish do you use for this type of application? And try to really give as many tips as possible. Cause I think paint is the cheapest way to make the biggest impact in your space. But it's also like, can be very intimidating. So I do think there are some really, like, essential tips that will help get people feeling a little bit more comfortable doing it themselves or at least knowing what to ask for.
- [55:51]
A
I do feel like that is something that people do a lot. And I'm curious your thought on it, like, if they're moving into a new home, painting everything one color, knowing that, like, maybe they'll go back and, yeah, repaint one room here and there as you've. But at least, like, you've got some.
- [56:08]
D
A fresh coat of something before you move in. Honestly, like, we've done that for clients who are, like, removing. I had a client just now being like, I know we don't know what we're going to paint everything, but can you help me pick a neutral that'll stay, you know, it'll be the neutral through the hallways and the gray big, you know, spaces. Knowing that we're going to change the colors in the bedrooms, but for now, we're just going to get a fresh coat on everything that's fine. And it. That gives you time so you don't feel like you're living in a dingy space with a bad color that looks terrible. At least it's a pretty neutral. Everything feels clean. And then that's a good place to start from when picking a new color. You know, if you're in a red dining room and you're trying to go light blue, even testing on top of a red room is going to change that color. So you almost have to paint white anyway. You can get a real read on what that looks like because the undertones will come through on your testing. Even if you paint a swatch on top of a dark color, it's really Tricky. So, yeah, it's not a bad thing to just go ahead and paint it all winds, breath or whatever. That's what I always use.
- [57:12]
B
Well, I really love the. I love the takeaways as well from every project. Like, you reflecting on, like, what went well, what to note so that anybody who is in the. In a process right now could totally get some takeaways from, you know, not only beautiful spaces, but I also wanted.
- [57:29]
D
People to read those and then look back if it's like I'm calling out, like, this was really successful or this was something we did that I think is worth noting that maybe you didn't notice just looking at the image because that's what makes a space, you know, great. Instead of just good are like those little touches and those little details. So it's not just like what went good and bad. It's also like, hey, note this. Like, look, check this out. This is a good example of this executed well. Yeah, I wanted it to be like a really informative guide as well as a pretty book.
- [58:08]
C
Well, success all around.
- [58:10]
D
Thank you. You work on these things, then you're like, oh, God, is this good? I don't even know any. You get too close to it and you're like, I think it's good. It's good. It is.
- [58:24]
A
No, I thoroughly enjoyed it.
- [58:26]
D
I'm so glad.
- [58:27]
A
And like I said, especially the, the for the introduction just because, you know, I think anyone that's been following you for a while will especially love that part knowing. Knowing your backstory and having read your previous book so well.
- [58:43]
D
Thank you.
- [58:43]
A
Really wonderful.
- [58:44]
D
Thank you.
- [58:45]
A
Well, tell everyone where they can find it. It's on pre order now. It comes out September 30th.
- [58:50]
D
Yeah, you can find it any indie bookstore, Amazon, Target, all over Barnes and Noble. If you go to my Instagram, it's in my link tree to all the different. All the different places you can pre.
- [59:05]
A
Order elements of timeless style. Creating a forever home.
- [59:08]
D
Yes. Yay.
- [59:10]
A
All right, that's our show. And that's our show. You can find all of the show notes on our blog howtodecorate.com podcast to.
- [59:19]
B
Send in a decorating dilemma. Email your questions to podcastallarddesigns.net so we can help you with your space.
- [59:25]
A
And of course, be sure to follow us on social media alardesigns.
- [59:29]
C
Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts so you never miss an episode. And please leave us a review. We'd love to hear your feedback.
- [59:35]
A
Until next time, Happy decorating.