Ep. 457: Timelines, Tiles, & The "Fifth Wall" with Studio Wellington

Summary

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How to Decorate, Ep. 457: Renovation Reality Check — Timelines, Tile & The "Fifth Wall" with Studio Wellington

Date: March 17, 2026

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Overview

This episode dives deep into the realities—good, bad, and “creative”—of home renovations. Hosts Caroline, Taryn, and Liz from Ballard Designs are joined by Stephanie Abernathy and Ashley Malone of Studio Wellington, two interior designers with unique backgrounds and extensive real-life renovation experience. The conversation demystifies the seemingly glamorous before-and-afters of Instagram and HGTV, offering a grounded look at what it actually takes to plan, execute, and survive a remodel. From extended planning periods to decision fatigue, surprise construction snafus, and finding satisfaction in small details, the designers share wisdom, regrets, and essential tips for anyone considering a renovation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The True Timeline of Renovations

• Planning Takes Time

  • Big renovations can take upwards of a year (or more) just to plan.
  • Even pros like Stephanie and Ashley take extra time with their own homes because of constant improvements and busy lives.
  • Quote: “Planning… took about a year to plan that, year and a half to get that together.” — Stephanie [04:04-04:18]

• Why Rushing Hurts

  • Faster isn’t always better; moving quickly leads to poorly-thought-out choices.
  • Time allows for details to be considered, which saves headache and money in the long run.
  • Quote: “The quicker we try to move, the less thought through things are going to be, even from a professional side…” — Stephanie [07:07-07:41]

2. Comprehensive Planning: What It Entails

• The Project “Binder”

  • Studio Wellington creates project binders with plans, scaled drawings, SKUs, hardware, finishes, etc. The more detail, the smoother the process.
  • Templates are done by type and room—lighting, tile, electrical, etc.
  • Quote: “If you could think through all those details and have the smallest—you know, like, it’s this HVAC, it’s this outlet cover… There’s going to be less mental burden on you as the client.” — Stephanie [25:56-27:42]
  • Tip: Avoid relying on contractors to make design decisions for you (“Never assume!”).

• Must-Have Decisions Before Construction Begins

  • Know your appliances—sizes, features, and location—first.
  • Pick countertop stone early; it often dictates aesthetic.
  • Choose tile before other details for kitchens and baths; what’s unique or expensive should be prioritized over more common selections (paint, cabinetry).
  • Don’t underestimate how much time it takes to make and communicate all these selections.

• Decision Fatigue Is Real

  • “You get fatigue. Decision fatigue very quickly, and you’re just like, ‘Oh, I’ll do it later,’ like, get it done.” — Ashley [14:37]
  • Saves your creative energy for the big picture.

3. Building the Right Team

• Choose Carefully—You’ll Live With Them Awhile

  • Select a contractor/architect/designer you trust and like—they’ll be in your home and in your life for months (or years).
  • Ask: “Do I want to get bad news from this person?” — Stephanie [09:34]
  • Red flags include vague billing practices, unwillingness to clarify process or timeline, and lack of site supervision.

• Communication Is Everything

  • Even great contracts and detailed plans can’t prevent all issues—human error, site changes, and unexpected discoveries happen (especially in older homes).
  • Pre-construction meetings are critical for everyone to get on the same page, document changes, and clarify points of decision-making.

4. Lessons & Regrets

• Vision for Every Room

  • It’s easy to skimp on “lesser” rooms, but you’ll notice it later—especially main living areas.
  • Having a plan—even if phased—is better than improvising.
  • Regret: “Living room... it’s the room most people spend time in and I gave the littlest [attention] at the time.” — Taryn [15:26-15:30]

• Emotional Attachment and Fatigue

  • Even pro designers struggle with their own spaces—being both client and designer is emotionally taxing.
  • You may surprise yourself with what you’re deeply attached to (“the Newel post!”) and what you can let go.

5. The “Fifth Wall” & Forgotten Details

• Don’t Neglect Your Ceilings (“The Fifth Wall”)

  • Ceilings have major design impact but are often an afterthought.
  • Planning for all surfaces at the outset saves regret.

• Small Details, Big Problems

  • Outlet placement, vent covers, junction box sizes, cabinet hardware, and switch placements can haunt you if not specified early and precisely.
  • “Never assume that everybody knows what you were thinking and that was like how it should be done because they might have a whole different way of doing it.” — Ashley [80:59-81:09]

6. Budget Strategies

• 20–30% Overages Are Normal—Plan for It

  • Especially true for older homes with unknowns behind walls/foundations.
  • Use this “over-budget” cushion during construction, not before.

• Where People Blunder

  • Hardware and lighting are almost always under-budgeted.
  • Spending on visible details and durable, timeless materials (like authentic stone, quality appliances) pays off in lasting satisfaction.

• Scope Creep

  • Once trades are in your house, it’s tempting and cost-effective to add more—just remember it adds complexity and can lead to decision burnout if you’re not prepared.

7. Scheduling & Logistics

• Materials In-Hand

  • If living through a renovation: Have 100% of what you need on site or warehoused in advance to avoid expensive/wasteful schedule lulls.
  • Many items (hardware, tile, specialty appliances) can have long lead times.

• Schedule Around Holidays

  • Pro tip: “You need to start in July [for holiday readiness]… Very little happens between Thanksgiving and New Year’s.” — Ashley [73:39-74:13]

• Green Flags for Contractors

  • Will produce a clear schedule and expectations.
  • Transparent about billing and allowances.

• Red Flags

  • Vague or non-existent contract details for billing (“cost plus” should be spelled out).
  • Contractor unwilling to discuss schedule, scope, or troubleshooting process.
  • Taking on too many projects to have adequate site supervision.

8. Coping with Renovation Stress

• Mental Load is Significant

  • Anticipate and plan for stress; know there will be “pain points” (especially at the end!) and decision fatigue.
  • “It’s a lot going on in your mind. So, yeah, you need like a therapist. You need mental coping mechanisms.” — Stephanie [49:43-50:51]

• Finding the Joy

  • Happy accidents can become the most memorable features (“marble trim around the casing!”).
  • “This is an opportunity to make it better.” — Stephanie [45:54]
  • At the end, most people forget the pain and are ready to do it again—just like childbirth!

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Team Selection
  • “Do I want to get bad news from this person?” — Stephanie [09:34]
• On Client Projects vs. Own Home
  • “I could do it for clients all day, but for myself, really hard to tell myself like, no, this really needs to, to be different.” — Stephanie [11:51]
• On Emotional Investment
  • “It’s the emotional investment you put into the thing.” — Stephanie [59:40]
• On Never Assuming
  • “Never assume that everybody knows what you were thinking…” — Ashley [80:57]
• On Trends and Timelessness
  • “Things that will age, things that are timeless.” — Stephanie [62:54]
  • “Chatsworth floors are 400 years old and they’re black and white checkerboard marble. Like, that’s always going to be a thing.” — Stephanie [63:25]
• The Renovation as ‘Birth:’
  • “It’s like giving birth, right? ... you completely forget about all of this.” — Stephanie & Ashley [47:38-48:32]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [04:04] The true planning timeline
• [07:01] Importance of detailed pre-construction planning
• [09:34] Choosing your team: the “bad news” test
• [11:51] Emotional attachment & why hiring a designer helps even the pros
• [15:26] The haunting of unloved rooms
• [20:14] How/when to add rooms to your scope—cost and complexity
• [25:56] What must be picked before you demo
• [32:08] Appliance and stone selection leads
• [37:53] Where budgets go awry (lighting/hardware)
• [45:54] Stress coping and “finding the joy”
• [49:43] Mental preparation advice
• [73:39-74:13] Schedule around the holidays
• [76:43] Ask for a contractor’s materials decision schedule
• [77:14] Red flags in contractors
• [80:57] “Never assume” – case studies
• [84:33] Why the lowest bid isn’t always cheaper
• [88:05] Retaining 20–30% contingency in your renovation budget

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Pro Tips & Takeaways

Planning & Project Management

• Create a thorough binder (or digital equivalent) for every room with product specs, layouts, elevations, and finishes.
• Make all decisions before demo if you want to stay sane and on schedule.
• Do not rely on QR codes—paper and tape on site outperform tech for subs.
• Anticipate needing to guide and double-check trades on even “obvious” decisions.

Budgeting

• Reserve (and don’t touch!) 20–30% for overages—especially with old homes.
• Allocate more to hardware, lighting, and appliances than a builder “allowance” suggests.

Emotional Readiness

• Renovation is an emotional rollercoaster, even for professionals.
• Decide ahead what matters most to you, and expect to compromise somewhere—try to make peace with the “lesser of two evils.”
• Happy accidents can make the space special if you’re open to them.

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Final Words

Renovations are messy, time-consuming, and emotionally draining—but with thoughtful planning, a well-chosen team, and a healthy contingency, they can also be creative, rewarding, and addictive. Don’t let the Instagram before-and-afters fool you: the magic is in the messy middle.

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Find Studio Wellington:

• StudioWellington.com
• @studiowellington on Instagram

Show Notes:

• howtodecorate.com/podcast

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to how to Decorate from Ballard

[B]

Designs, a weekly podcast all about the

[A]

trials and triumphs of decorating and redecorating your home. I'm Caroline. I'm on the marketing team.

[C]

And I'm Taryn and I'm a product designer.

[D]

I'm Liz. I head of the creative team.

[A]

We're your hosts.

[B]

Join the expert team at Ballard Designs

[A]

for tips, tricks and tales from interior

[B]

designers, stylists, and other talents in the design world.

[C]

Plus, we'll answer your decorating dilemmas at the end of each episode.

[D]

We love answering your questions, so don't forget to email [e-mail] now, on with the show.

[A]

Okay, today we have Stephanie Abernathy and Ashley Malone of Studio Wellington. Between them, they have degrees in history, art history, political science, and interior design. So coming to the interior design world from it an unusual path which we love and we find many interior designers do. But you'll met at SCAD and started your business in the pandemic and are five years in and today we're going to talk about renovations because Stephanie is mid renovation. Of course, we know that Taryn just finished her huge build project and you know, there are a lot of questions. We always get questions from listeners who are either starting one or planning. And you know, there is so much out on the like on social media, you know, with beautiful before and afters. But what is the nitty gritty? What does it really look like? What are the anti challenges?

[B]

Such a good perspective.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Versus after. Because a lot of what we've recorded was like my post thoughts which had mellowed. And I do think there's something to be said about what it feels like in the thick of it, which is what you want.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So that's what's also why we were like, yes, let's talk.

[A]

Exactly. So we're gonna just jump right in and maybe the two of y' all could start by maybe or Stephanie, maybe you share what is your renovation project and then we can kind of just ask them and. And also should mention that Ashley's been growing up around construction projects. You're very knowledgeable as well. So we're gonna of course pick your brains.

[E]

We're working on like with seven renovations right now. So.

[B]

Yeah, just not personal of what we do we really enjoy doing in our business is renovations. And so it's fun to get to work on my own. But we bought our house in 2016 and it was horrific. And so because we didn't have the budget at the time, it's like, slowly just, like, piecemealed stuff together. So Ashley probably feels like I've been doing. I mean, you've known me since 2016, so Ashley. So she probably feels like I've been doing my house, you know, for 10 years. I never stop.

[E]

She never stopped.

[B]

I never stopped.

[E]

She would, like, get something finished and then like, hey, Ashley, what do you think about redoing all of this? And I'm like.

[B]

Because it's always. It's always like, you know, some paper, awesome wallpaper here. Like, you know, little touches here and there, which I feel like a lot of people are doing when you're trying to bridge that gap between, hey, I can't gut this space, but I want to make it my own. But was really exciting, excited when probably two or three years ago, my husband and I decided, I think this is actually gonna be our forever house. This is, you know, we're gonna really commit to staying here. It's gonna be where we are forever. So we, you know, decided what we were gonna spend and what we were gonna do, and then eventually landed on, like, we're just gonna. We're gonna do all of it. You know, we're gonna get the house and redo it. And so started planning. That took about a year to plan that, year and a half to get that together. And then had done the kitchen right when I was expecting my daughter and she was. Ashley was pregnant with her son. And then we actually gave birth on the same day to.

[A]

Right next to each other.

[B]

Same day next to each other in the hospital. Same hospital at North. Wow. Yeah, it was weird. It was different due dates, but it just happened. It happened that way.

[E]

I went first.

[A]

She did.

[B]

Her son's about two hours older than my daughter.

[C]

That's insane.

[B]

I'll call it fair modes. Horror modes. I don't know. Maybe we just got in sync with each other.

[E]

Junior designer. She had her baby the next day.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

Sh.

[B]

So it was. It was kind of.

[E]

It was. It was all in the air condition.

[B]

So we have three children, all the same. So I chose violence upon myself when, like, right before I was due with my daughter. I just, like, you know what we should start with first? We should start with the kitchen first. Yeah, of course. So we did that. Didn't have, like, a refrigerator. When I brought my daughter home from the hospital, like, it was. It was chaos. I chose violence, but it's fine. And then took a little bit of a break going through that baby phase and trying to figure out what it looked like for her first time. Mom and my second child and then bringing new team members on that had young children. So it was kind of chaotic. And then started in October of last year with our big renovation in our house and then did a chunk of it. Kids got outta school in May, took a break because the kids are outta school. It didn't seem like idle time to be ripping the roof off and stuff like that. And now are in the thick of it, getting into the thick of it again with the final phase of that, that project. So that's a little bit of the background there. And it's all of it. You know, it's, it's, it's a lot. It was, it's been a lot.

[A]

Yeah. And, and okay, so talk us through. You mentioned that it took a year and a half to plan.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So that was one of the things that I wanted to ask about because planning is such a. Obviously your designer. So you plan this for your clients as well. But what should someone who is planning a renovation is a year and a half standard, you know, what sort of things should they have off their list? Like what are the must haves before it starts? And you know, kind of like it's more than just the construction documents.

[C]

Right?

[B]

So much more than the construction documents. I think. And I think a huge misconception that people might have is when you go into a big budget, but a large scale renovation where it's a lot of square footage or a lot of different spaces, the materials needed, the thought process needed, the construction documents needed, they take a really long time to get together, to sit down and agree on. You know, my husband, I'd agree on or the clients to agree on and then us to finalize that to get to a place where construction will be effective, it takes a long time to do that. It can take upwards of a year.

[E]

I think it also depends on the amount of renovation that you're doing. Like, I think if it's just like kitchen renovation, I don't think you need a year, okay, maybe three months prior. But you want to make sure you have the entire design plan done.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Down to like you have tile, you

[E]

have light fixtures, you have that design plan and it is ready to just implement. And then we're basically just, that's where we just take over as project management of making sure like the design details

[B]

are working with the construction team to make sure the design detail or executed according to plan. But I think, you know, people come and whether they've seen stuff on Instagram or seen stuff on HGTV or seen Stuff somewhere else. They come and they're like, are we ready to start this renovation? How quickly can we get the design done? And that's an education portion with clients and saying, the quicker we try to move, the less thought through things are going to be, even from a professional side point, because you just don't have the time to sit down and really look at every single detail of every single room and make sure it all lines up unless you are given that time to do that. And so I wanted to move really slowly because I was also working with clients and trying to do their projects well, but I moved really slowly in mine just to make sure that we really could sit down and think through all of those details.

[E]

Yeah, I was gonna say. I will say, the girls are always teasing me that I can change things, like, up to the last minute on the project just because I'm like, I feel like when I sleep, I. Or like, I'm just like in the shower or anything. I'm always thinking of it. I'm like, it could always be better.

[B]

It can always make this better. That's the problem.

[E]

And so they're always like, ashley, stop changing stuff. And I'm like, but it could be better. And my mind is always thinking of how I can make this better for this. This client or this family.

[B]

So that's probably why I feel like I've been redoing my house forever. Because, you know, I'm sitting in a room and I'm playing on the floor,

[C]

and I'm like, it could always be better.

[B]

It could always be her.

[E]

Especially with, like, space planning, because you want to make sure that it's truly fully functional for your clients and for their family and for whatever needs that they need have.

[B]

So for sure.

[A]

Okay, well, so for. In the planning year and a half, like, what. What are the elements of that? Right? Because there's. There's obviously the layout, which I'm sure most people are going to think through. But then what are the other parts? You know, there's your team. And so.

[B]

So there's a team, like, you know, who. Who's gonna. Who's the builder gonna be? Who's the architect going to be, who's the designer gon. How do they work together? And I think it's important to take time to consider each of those elements of who you're hiring, because that team is. I mean, you're going to have to live with them for the next however many years this project's going on. And sure, everybody works. You got to like them. You really want to like them and you want to see them. And when you get really bad news, like, I think I always think to myself, like, do I want to get bad news from this person? Like, is this somebody that when they call me to tell me something catastrophic has happened, you know, great litmus test. Do I want, do I want to get bad news from this person? Yeah, you know, because.

[A]

Do you trust them?

[B]

Yeah, because you're going to. Yeah. Do you trust them? I think is a, is a huge, is a huge thing because if you're starting a project and you see this happen, I think in the industry, if you're starting a project and you already. I'm kind of thinking the builders are a little shady. I mean, that's not going to bode well when something really goes wrong on the project. So you do want to trust your team, but outside that, I mean, the materials and then just the level of detail, because detail doesn't have to be expensive, but detail does have to be thought through. And so when you're looking at a room and you're looking at a space and it's not just the furniture and finishes and decor that goes after, but how, you know, how does, what, what, what's the wall condition? What's the, what's the trim condition? Because there's thousands of trim options out there. What trim do you want to use? And do you, you know, how do you want the marble to finish? And how, what are you, what windows are you selecting if you're doing that? So there's just a lot of details that don't necessarily have to be expensive but do need to be critically thought through. And when you mult times, you know, five bedroom house or even a three bedroom house, it. There's a lot of details to things.

[E]

There's a lot of details.

[B]

Yeah. What knobs do you want? You know, where the, where are the

[A]

outlets going to go?

[B]

Where are the outlets going to go? Which switches do you want? Which, which switches do you want? What, like, what do you, what H vac vents do you want? You know, and where do we place those?

[A]

And I feel like those sound so small. But then when you get into the practicality of, okay, I was gonna put a bookcase on this wall, but that's where the electrician put in the, you know, the plug. Okay, well, now you have a problem or like

[C]

is on the floor and

[A]

that's where you're gonna place drapery.

[C]

And now every time your air turns on.

[B]

Yes, Exactly. Yes.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like really important decisions, but they seem in I would think of having done it.

[C]

It was too much for me as. Yes. Like, I think that's where again, hiring somebody who has seen that, who knows that you know that experience that you, unless you do it for a living, you don't nothing.

[B]

Well, even when you do it for a living. I mean, I've really struggled for myself to separate the emotional attachment to things. And having lived in the house for so long before we started this renovation, you don't even realize you become like subconsciously attached to how things are. So then you're trying to change it. And maybe you know, in a professional coming in with a unemotional, non biased professional, like, I'm here to just do the best I can for. You can say this needs to go or like we need to change this or. But me, even for myself, I could do it for clients all day, but for myself, really hard to tell myself like, no, this really needs to, to be different. It's hard to separate the emotion from the practicality. And I think that's where sometimes clients, if they choose not to hire somebody, might really struggle.

[A]

Taryn, you mentioned your, your air vent because we, we talked about this on a recent episode, but were there any in hindsight now that you're four years past moving in? Which I'm still, I'm like, that's not true. Which I know it just seems crazy Anyways, was there anything that you wish you had done differently in the planning phase? Like, or something that you overlook that you felt like, oh, this would have been.

[D]

Or something you wish you had more time to navigate?

[E]

Okay, there's lots of questions really fast.

[B]

So.

[C]

And again, working full time and then doing, you know, and I'm sure you're in the same boat of like. And then your evenings are spent doing whatever you have left in you to do. This X amount and it was mine was just too many rooms to fully do every room. So so many rooms were like, I don't have a vision for this room. I don't have the time or bandwidth mentally. And I think that's where it would have been probably nice to have somebody be like, then you should pause and you should think about it. Like, I think the timing thing is we're so rushed to like there's a schedule. Like again, my husband like, well we need a faucet there tomorrow. Yeah, like you need to go get a faucet. And I'm like, but I don't want just any faucet. Like, I want everything to be special. And so we're slow you know, then you have to just slowly go back through some of that stuff, and then you get kind of. You get stuck in certain holes you drilled in marble or holes that, you know, there's just certain things that now you're to retrofit or not as easy.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I have a friend who picked, you know, the chandelier and has this big plate on it, and they put it in one place because of this big plate on the top. And now she wants to do a new chandelier, but she's gonna have to have an electrician come and move it again. And anyway, again, she was just like, oh, I'll fix it later. You know, like, just scoot it. And of course. Yeah, it's just scooting, but it's not just scooting.

[B]

No.

[E]

Yeah, you get a fatigue. Decision fatigue very quickly, and you're just like, oh, I'll do it later. Like, get it done.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

So. So do you wish you'd have had. Do you wish you had had a vision for every single room?

[C]

Yes. Yeah.

[A]

I think down to a layout and.

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

Or even, like, the ceiling. I didn't have time. So the most forgotten to fill you guys in.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

There was just, like, so many spots that I was. I. Yeah. So the fifth wall was like, it doesn't exist. And like, of course it does. It makes, like, such an impact, especially in a main space. Not all your rooms, but, like, Devin taking the time. I think my biggest regret is just like, my living room was like, I had a vision for so many around it. Like, the kitchen felt strong and the dining room felt strong, and the library felt strong. Living room.

[B]

I was like, whatever.

[C]

Well, when we get there, we'll get there. And. And it's the room most people.

[A]

Now you're there.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And most people spend time in. And I'm like. And it's the room I gave the littlest to at the time.

[B]

So that.

[C]

And hiring just a better architect from the beginning, we took that as, like, a pay. Like, we were like, oh, we can save here. And I think that was a flaw. That's. That would have helped. So I think I would have put more money there. And so. Yeah, that's all. Those are my two, like, big takeaways right now.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

But what about you, Stephanie?

[B]

I think what I have most struggled with is the. You know, when we first started planning the renovation, I was. I'm, like, working with clients, so I'm being paid to think about their stuff. And so my stuff is very secondary to me. So I'm just like, oh, yeah, I'm sure I'm just gonna, like, easily pick this out. Right. Cause I do this every day. And then, you know, you don't sit down and really look at the plan. When we were doing Ashley's nursery, I think we all sat down as a team, and we, like, sat down and she had this vision and kind of supported her in helping her to lay out the full vision. And I realized as we were doing that, it was really fun, but I realized as we were doing that, that, like, for no room in my house did I do that. Like, I never sat down, like I would do for a client and lay it out altogether. I just was kind of like, well, I love this marble. And that's what we're picking for this room. And, oh, this tile is fantastic. I love this tile. And then, oh, can I pick a cabinet color? I like this cabinet color. And so then, although it kind of has all come together and feels organic and, like, over time, I think I would have. My contractor would have been much happier with me if I had treated it like a client project and sat down and laid it all out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You said your husband did, too, right? Pardon?

[E]

Your husband wanted you to do.

[B]

Yeah. Like, James was like, can you sit down and actually, like, what does this look like? As it's also. When you. Beautiful, though, when you do it that way, more piecemeal, it's very hard to nail down the budget, like, what it will look like in terms of expense. So I think that's the benefit. With time for a client project, you sit down and you lay everything out, and then you can help them with the help of a contractor and an architect. Really dial in. Here's what we think this will cost. Now, whether or not it actually ends up costing, that's an entirely different story. Yeah.

[E]

I feel like it's so much harder to design for yourself, though, just because we see so much and so many different ideas. That it's just. And they're all beautiful. And you're like, what do I want in my house? I want to live with Brad.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

They always say, see them first to a bride. You know, you stop looking for dresses after you picked your wedding dress. But, like, what do you do in our circumstance? Or like, for you. Yeah. When you're like, I'm in this industry, I'm just looking at wedding dresses. That's all I'm doing, you know?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's not like, at least when you're wedding, like, your wedding comes and Goes and like, okay, you're done. Like, you're always living in your house.

[B]

Yes. You're just living here.

[A]

It's never. Yeah, well done.

[C]

Never do piecemeal. Which again, a lot of people do. I think it's probably the most. And even just a normal way. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But like, you're.

[C]

You're never finishing a space. Does that make sense? So you're always longing, and when you're always looking and there's all this incoming, you're just constantly moving. Your goalpost, I guess, is right.

[A]

Like, no space is ever at 100. Yeah. Because you're. You're like, oh, this room needs a lampshade. Well, this normal needs a coffee table. Instead of being like, I'm going to do the whole living room.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Top to bottom and have a plan.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And I think that's one of the things we recommend to clients from the gate. We say, if you can only do. If this is your budget and you can only do so much, do one room at a time. Finish a room and then move on.

[E]

Absolutely. Because you want to get it right. And then we'll move on. And maybe we have a plan for the whole. The whole main level. Right. I'm like, just do one room for now. Maybe wait another year if you want to do another room. But at least we have a plan. And then once you finally finish this entire project, everything is so cohesive in the design.

[D]

Okay. I do have a question about that, though.

[E]

Yeah.

[D]

So say you were renovating a kitchen.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[D]

Which is on my horizon.

[B]

Yes.

[D]

And I. And I was. I've just been like, level. Set that. Okay. Like nine months to a year for planning. Okay, great. Yeah, but so you've already got the people in the home doing the kitchen. Why not do the bathroom at the same time?

[E]

It is actually more cost effective to

[B]

do that scope creep. We call that scope creep. Yeah. They're in your house. They're in your house in the domino. And you are like, but you know what I could also have you do is this bathroom over here. And they go, yeah, yeah, we could do the bathroom. And you could certainly do that. It is more cost effective when to have a trade in your house do multiple things at a time.

[E]

Yes.

[B]

Um, so there's no reason you couldn't do that. It's just then you run into. How effectively are you thinking through the details of a space?

[C]

Cause now you added more spaces.

[E]

Right. I. I don't think there's any problem with that. I was just saying as more as like, you have a whole cohesive design plan, and maybe it's just not in the budget for the client. But yes, I always tell the client, if you can do them together way, it's. It's gonna be a lot more cost effective in the long run. Like, even if you have, like, a primary bath and you're doing a kitchen renovation, to have those contractors there at the same time will save you a lot more money in the end.

[B]

Okay.

[E]

Maybe you want to do it.

[C]

Do you guys feel like the nursery is like the gateway drug and food design, interior design. It could be because it's the only time or not the only time. For most people, I think it is the one time where they have. They have a planning period. They know that they have about Whatever.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Before this room has to be ready. And I want this room ready at that Mark.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I'm not gonna have any time after that. Nine months to think about it. So it has to be 100%.

[C]

Well, you know what?

[A]

I thought, like, oh, okay, well, I'm not gonna fool with it afterwards.

[C]

Well, my first full room I, like, did. Was my nursery. And then it was almost again, like,

[E]

I was like, well, that was it. That felt good.

[B]

Yeah, it looked good.

[C]

It felt good. Yeah, it worked.

[B]

It's a dopamine head.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

That's what I can see people.

[C]

I was wondering how many people call up designers right? At like, hey, I want to do my nursery. And then it's like, oh, you did such an amazing job that now I know my bedroom's not functioning and my living room's not functioning.

[A]

Plus, with a nursery, you're having to pretty much buy all new. Like, you have virtually nothing to start with. Right. Like a living room. Move into your house. Like, you have a sofa to make work, but you don't have, like, a crib and an extra dresser and a rocker. And it. Like, you're starting at zero.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

And we. And like, I will definitely say that you're talking about, like, that dopamine level. Like, I. My husband was like, why are you making this so fancy? Like, it's so beautiful, but, like, it's so fancy. And I'm like, because it's not for him. It's for me.

[B]

Yeah, it's for me.

[E]

I'm going to be in this room, and I'm going to be living in this room for a long time with this baby. So it's for me, it's pretty. I need something pretty to look at.

[B]

And I think what's fun about that is that's one space where I think the emotional attachment is like the. Is like one of the highest. And I think it's also one of the spaces where I like that that emotional attachment is the highest for the client. I think one of the first nurseries I ever designed for a client, she was having a little girl, and I thought to myself, like, well, you don't want to, like, overdo it with pink. Like, you want to be chill about this. You know, let's make this, like, sophisticated nursery. As soon as I found out I was having my daughter, I was like, you know what I'm gonna do? Everything's gonna be pink and purple, you know, So I think it's fun. I mean, and you get to do things with nurseries that you would never normally.

[E]

No, you really get to play with wallpapers and the. You know, especially, like, even girls.

[B]

Oh, so fun.

[E]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

There.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

I feel like every time I see a fabric, I'm like, oh, that was such a pretty nursery. It is a gateway.

[B]

It is a gateway drug. Nurseries are the gateway drug.

[A]

I do. I do agree with you, though. The timeline is a real. Like, you kind of don't really have that in the other room.

[B]

Like a fixed.

[C]

No. Like, you could have a guest coming, but you generally aren't like, in March being like, all right, I know we're hosting Christmas, and maybe that does help some people. Like, maybe that's another one. But I feel like there is something about someone is occupying the space daily.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

All the time. I want this to feel good.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

It is the first time I think people. I don't know you.

[A]

Yeah. And you're like, when they come, I'm gonna have no energy, no mental brain power.

[E]

That's why I was trying to do this.

[A]

So it has to be fully there.

[B]

It's fully realized. I need to be excited to walk in here at 2am yeah. That's why it was the last week. It's for me. It's for me. 4:00am, 3:00am yeah.

[C]

It's got a function really well.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. And be safe. You got so many things. Sorry, that was off renovations. But I was thinking, like, I bet like, I know renovations are different than that would be more like. Think the decorating that could lead to more like renovations because renovations are more. Also a lot of times need based or like, something happens in your home and you're like, well, we really need to redo X, so we might as well do like, again. Expand the scope.

[B]

Scope creep. Scope creep.

[E]

Scope creep.

[B]

Creep. Scope Creep it have.

[E]

It's a domino.

[B]

It's a domino effect.

[E]

You're like, well, if I'm doing this

[B]

with the floors in here attached to this room. So if I'm doing this room, I need to redo the floors in this room. If I'm already in this room, I might as well just redo the room.

[A]

Yeah. And the painter's gonna be.

[B]

The painter's painter's here already.

[E]

When I'm already doing this bathroom. Why don't I just go ahead and do the guest bathroom or the powder room or.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And you know what? Gosh, I've just. I owe it to myself to do a really cool master bathroom. So I might as well just do that too.

[A]

I owe it to my future. Okay, well what about like, okay, planning wise, is there anything that you find. We kind of got yalls like you, what you wish you had done.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is there any. Just like you must have X before other than the obvious, like you know, plans. You know, plans. But like, like do you need to have all the hardware picked out? Do you need to have the outlet covers?

[B]

Or is that when we're approaching a client project? I would say yes. Like the more detail that we can get into, like it's this knob that's going here, the smoother your process is gonna go. Because. Right. Like your contractor. We were, I was telling my contractor the other day, I was like, listen man, when we do client projects, I show up with these books that are like super detailed. It's got the plan, it's got the sku number of the item, it's got the to scale version of the item behind it and the heights and the details. He's like, why don't you do that for yours? I was like, oh man. Cause I'm not getting paid to do this project. How did I get paid to do this one? No, I. So I think if you could think through all those details and have the smallest, you know, like it's this H vac, it's this outlet cover, it's this stuff. There's going to be less mental burden on you as the client to have your contractor asking you all these questions. It's already laid out, it's already done. Which is going to cut down on your anxiety during the process. Because what happens is once construction starts, things go wrong. I mean, the built environment is made by hands we live in, especially here in the Southeast. Like it's wood construction.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Two by fours are not always straight. The walls are not gonna be straight. So you're gonna have stuff start happening that's gonna create a domino effect for like, oh, well, this, what you planned, doesn't quite fit. We're gonna have to redo this in order to make it fit. Do you want that extra expense? That stuff starts happening and so you get real stressed out. So then what happens is you're dealing with those problems. So then someone comes to you and goes, which H VAC event you go and you go, I don't care. But two years down the road, when you're sitting in that room and you're looking around, you're gonna, you're gonna care about that, right? So it's. I would have those planned out before you start counting those problems so that your mental load is less as you start dealing with the inevitable issues during construction.

[E]

I was gonna say it's like designing the nursery. You have all that time and then once you're, you know, you, you have that time, the nursery has to be done. You're not gonna wanna make those decisions later. So try to get all the decisions you can out of the way. But there is a lot of times that here we call them oopsies.

[B]

Yeah, they pop up. You gotta make the best of it,

[E]

and then you gotta figure out a solution really quick. We try to come with our clients with a solution if we have to give them some bad news and something really fast, and sometimes they turn out to be really happy accidents.

[B]

So, yeah, like, I now get to have a nice rug in my closet because my floors are going to be ruined forever. My most recent example of this, like, you know, we have older floors in the new master closet and there was a miscommunication on the cabinet person's side where they didn't put the toe kicks in the right place. And when we refinished the floors originally, we elected not to finish them all the way under there for various reasons. So then that was gonna be visible. So then this decision was made that another party was going to pay for it, but they were gonna refinish the floors. Well, at some point, when it's 16 degrees outside and you've had the windows open to vent for lacquer paint, the filler gets really brittle and it starts coming out when you refinish the floors. So then I walk into my closet with the now finished floors and it's just like so painful. I'm like, this looks awful. The good news is it looks like an old English cottage house. So you know what, guys? Maybe I'm good. Maybe I'm good. It's My dream. So I'm obviously distraught about this and my sweet husband, he's like, like, let's just get a nice rug and put down. So, you know, that's.

[A]

There you go. Nice rug.

[B]

Yeah, there you go.

[A]

Okay. I loved what you were talking about though, with the mental, the mental load.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That is probably, I would guess, something that people don't ever consider planning a construction. Like when the guy calls you middle of the day and is like, I need to faucet today. So talk through maybe how you mitigate that or just what people can be aware of or maybe plan for in advance to avoid. I love the binder idea. That's smart.

[B]

Yeah. So when we do, when we do it for our clients and we're working through this process with them, when we do a design, we've. The design should be complete. I mean we're, we've picked the paint color, we've picked the faucet. I mean all those details from our professional side we've thought through. So then we create binders for our clients where, when they elect to have us do that as a part of our service. Electrical, plumbing, where it's, you know, electrical, plumbing, lighting.

[E]

Lighting and it has all the placements,

[B]

hard, you know, cabinetry, hardware placement. And you drew drawings to show where those are placed because that just cuts down for the client later on. Any questions? At some point they're going to come to you and say, hey, where do you want your kitchen hardware placed? There's and you know, a person might think, oh well, there's just like it's standard, right? You just put it up, never standard.

[E]

We're not doing all the same hardware ever standard.

[B]

And I think going back to the details, like every single little detail, they work together to create the feel of the space and you can tell the difference. Like when you walk into a builder grade house, maybe it's a very expensive, very nice builder grade house or you walk into a custom designed house, you don't know why it feels different, but it does. And it's because of these really small details that you don't think through. So I think sitting down and having, if you can, if you're doing this on your own, sitting down and maybe asking, going online, asking ChatGPT, what will I need to think through? You know, what do I need to think through for all of my, for my kitchen renovation that I'm coming up and then get a list together of like every single detail you'll have to pick. And I would work through that list and how I'M designing my scheme. That's what I would recommend for somebody doing this on their own. And then. And then write it down. Write it down and have it in a place that's easily accessible for you, for your contractor, for whatever subs you're working with or using, because I think that's gonna cut down on your mental load at the end of the day.

[E]

Let's say the first things you need to pick out, though, are your appliances when designing. So if you have your appliances, then you can start designing the kitchen. But you need to make sure what are your needs in the kitchen? And what appliances do I need? And a lot of the times that does drive the design of what we have to do. And then I know in my process, we always like the countertop first. Yes, I always like the countertop.

[C]

Wait, why?

[E]

Because you never know what a client's gonna love. So I usually take the client with me to countertop shopping, and that starts the rooms, because they could go with a Fusion or an Ajen or a Torento or.

[B]

Which are all very colorful.

[E]

Or Viola. He's like, very colorful. Or they might go with a Taj Mahal, but I'd never know. So I feel like it's always the driving point. And it's such the most powerful point in your kitchen, too, and probably a

[A]

big part of your budget.

[B]

A big part of your budget.

[E]

Well, cabinetry.

[A]

Yeah.

[E]

Countertops. Yes, yes, yes.

[A]

And appliances. But I mean.

[B]

And appliances.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The three keys.

[A]

The three keys.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

I think when we. I think playing off of a kitchen or a bath. Yes. The marble, the selection of, like, the stone or tile would probably be your first thing. For general rooms. My rule of thumb would say would be like, if. So let's say you're doing a bedroom or a living room or something. I would pick the least. I'm trying to figure out how to say it. Like, it's the least diverse option. So, like, yes, there's thousands of stones out there, but in your area, what you have access to, you might only have access to a certain range of stones or a certain price point of stones or something. So I would. I would start with what your least diverse aspect is. Like paint colors, where your limitations are millions of paint colors. There's lots of different cabinetry styles. There's lots of. There's lots of different things you can manipulate around. So start with your most limited option based off of if you know your budget for your kitchen's X, don't go look at, you know, aizing or Toronto. Yeah.

[E]

Or something like that.

[B]

Or don't go look at that. Go. You know, start with your most limited option and then play off of that.

[C]

And it sounds like too, you're also your most expensive in a way, like, your most investment stuff.

[E]

So that's why I was saying the counter. Yes.

[C]

That makes sense of, like, that's gonna be a big chunk and make a big.

[E]

Because what if they want a wine cooler, they want an ice maker, they want a new microwave drawer. Like, how am I gonna place?

[C]

And then be like, oh, I want

[E]

a 48 inch cooktop. I want double ovens. Like, and so I have to know that, like, we both have to know that going into, like, designing a kitchen. Because.

[B]

Yeah. So, like, the. The appliances determine the layout and function of the kitchen.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

And the stone determines the aesthetic.

[E]

That's what I was.

[C]

I would have.

[E]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I would not have thought the stone would have been. I would have thought.

[E]

It's always my driving. I mean, if they're picking like a Taj Mahal, then I'm probably gonna go with something. You know, then the tile would be your driving. Right. Like, or your backsplash or.

[C]

Right. Like, if they go subtle, then it's probably.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

At least allows you.

[E]

Depending on the client. Yeah, yeah. Depending on the client.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[E]

But countertops, you just never know. Because I've had clients that are like, all I want is Taj Mahal, which is a beautiful stone which actually ranges in multitudes of colors of green and purple, grays and warm colors.

[B]

But subtle, though.

[E]

It's subtle, but they surprise me. And they go with a fusion that is, like, lots of color. And so it's like, how do. Like. Because if I had already picked all of this other out, how do I incorporate this stone that I truly love?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. What about appliances? Because I. I like, I remember my mom doing her kitchen, and her kitchen designer had picked out like a really extra wide oven. She's like, no, I don't want that. Because then if I have to replace it, like, I have to pick a certain size. I feel like the sizing of appliances could be very tricky.

[E]

Another appointment that clients come with me is appliances. Because that is so personal. We will do a preliminary plan, a floor plan of how we think the kitchen should be, layout, and kind of what we think we need. And that's what we kind of go for. Like, understanding sizes of what we can fit in this kitchen. Because, like, like, we have a 1920s house right now. The kitchen's not very big, so we have to figure out how to incorporate

[B]

what they want really get creative.

[A]

You're not gonna do it.

[E]

We have a 1940s house right now that we're gonna be in the kitchen. Like, it's, you have to get a little creative. But if you have like a giant kitchen, you know, we could fit a lot of appliances in and just depends on who the client is and what, what, what the space that we have available. So always do a preliminary plan and then a floor plan. And then once we get the counter, the, the appliances, then we go forward and start doing elevations and understanding of everything.

[B]

And I think the most important thing to think of is your appliances are going to be the most functional thing in your kitchen. So, you know, I, I struggle as a designer. And then also personally, when you have the draw to like, I'm going to save on the appliances, but I'm gonna really spend on my marble. And it's like, like, as a designer, I would love for you to spend big bucks on your marble, but at the end of the day, that's not gonna be what's cooking you dinner for the next 30 years, you know, so it's, it's your, it's your, your oven and your stove. And so I would say that is my encouragement to clients, like spend your spend. You know, put your big portion of your budget there where you're gonna be using something every single day. It's the appliances. They're the workhorse of the kitchen. The countertops are just.

[E]

Unless they don't cook.

[B]

Well, if a client doesn't cook, I was like, that's a different story.

[E]

I don't cook. I don't cook. Yeah, the kitchen to look pretty.

[B]

Yeah, that's a different story altogether. So, but, but I don't know if that's like your a typical person.

[E]

No, I, we cook every day. Yeah. I love.

[A]

What about places that people maybe don't allot enough? What, you know, you were talking about the, the appliances. Are there any other places where you feel like people either don't allot enough budget or they blow their budget or like talk to us about the budget.

[B]

Lighting, I feel like is chronically under budgeted. Like with, you know, I'm working with clients who, if they brought on their contractor, their builder first and they've given them their allowances. Lighting is chronically under, under budgeted.

[A]

They've given you absolutely $300 for chandelier.

[B]

I mean, it's, I think hardware too.

[E]

Cabinet hardware, cabinet hardware, hardware.

[B]

That way.

[E]

So bad.

[B]

Yeah, I think, I think that people really have to think through the difference Between. And again, lighting fixtures can be changed, but as we know, there are costs involved with changing things later and moving things around. And sometimes the box is not the right size. And all those things people might forget.

[A]

But you had one of those, I think.

[E]

Yeah, I had that phone call on the way here, actually. See?

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

Not all junction boxes are the same.

[B]

No lighting out ahead of time. And you created the lighting binder. Then the electrician should know which light specified for that space. And the specifications on that light will show what box.

[A]

Binder.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you have a separate.

[D]

This whole binder system.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I was wondering if it was by room or by.

[D]

By vendor.

[A]

By.

[B]

Yeah, it's by type. And by the way we do it is by type in my room. So it's like a light. There's a lighting binder that also includes electrical stuff, electrical placements where outlets are going to go.

[E]

Do a switch plan.

[B]

Switch plan. A lighting plan that goes in one binder.

[E]

Power and communication.

[B]

And then we do it in that binder. For example, we' do it by room. So there'll be. Each individual room will have a tab, and in that tab will be the light that's going in that space, a layout of where the light's going in the space, the measurements of where to place that light in the space, and the specifications of that light in that space. So that way there should not be any issues.

[E]

However, I still want to be on site.

[B]

I still like to be there. I still like to be there. Because you would be amazed by how often people don't read the binders.

[E]

Well, that. And also just because we lay out a plan. Right. It's not always built exactly to plan.

[B]

Yep.

[E]

So walls are not going to be exactly the same measurement and distance. So, like, that's why I like to be on site is because, I mean,

[D]

even an inch can make a big

[E]

difference or a half an inch.

[B]

So like, the framing crew might not have read your binder. So they didn't know that you didn't want to stud there. And now there was where you had placed.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

An electrical box.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So that was a problem I definitely had a lot was where the original plan was there, but nobody, no one ever redrew the original plan either. So, like, does that make sense? So then the original plan, the next sub would come in, look at the plan that had changed. And it wasn't like somebody was like, please now go see document expert. You know, like, I think that's where again, the contractors should be communicating that. But like, like the cabinets Guys, it's a thousand subs.

[B]

And this is where I think when we were talking, you know, about renovations and what's the most difficult part of the renovation? Like, here it is.

[C]

This is it.

[B]

It's communication. You can't. You cannot. And it's hard to communicate this to clients. And I'm feeling this. And, you know, I joke with my husband because he's so sweet, but he just does not understand a lot of this because he's not in this industry. And so he gets real frustrated. And there are 13 different subs that have to touch for this one tiny thing to happen. And your contractor could be the most amazing contractor in the world. And he could have communicated everything super clearly with the owner of the electrical company, but the electrician guy that they sent out to do the work that day didn't quite understand. And so it's just. It's human error. And every time there's one small human error, it just compounds and compounds and compounds. And that's what makes construction really hard and renovations for a huge mental load. Because you. Because even if everything goes perfect, you're still gonna have. The stud is not where I expect it to be, because code requires this. And in a vacuum on Revit, this sounded like a great idea, but in the. In the reality, this is how it has to be. And so we have to put our switch in a different place. And. Oh, no, there's not a space here to put the switch. Cause there's a casing here. And so there's. That's what makes construction hard. And you have to make. Make phone calls to people to explain it, but find the happiness and the joy and the workaround that's still going to make this a great space, and you're going to be happy with it. So that's where you kind of get into, what can I live with? And how can I turn this into an opportunity to actually make it better than it was before, than the plan

[E]

or sometimes you're just saying, what's lesser evil.

[B]

Yeah. What's less evil?

[E]

Two decisions. And we just have to move forward from it and.

[B]

And live with it. And live with it.

[A]

This makes me feel like if you. Okay. Because I'm. I'm thinking of Taryn and, like, you running off from work to go meet the guy with the faucet to take it to him. But what if you're building a house or renovating a house? Not in the place where you're living? Like, what do you do in that situation? Do is. I would think that that really would be a case to hire a designer who is there in person. But then so many designers. Yeah. We do like projects and things.

[E]

I was gonna say we have a project in Kentucky right now and I wish I could be there like all the time. It's a new build too.

[C]

How's it go? Yeah, how would you say it's going? Because of the distance? Like, what are you saying? Like, what are the new things you found?

[A]

You're like, I don't want to share.

[B]

You also don't have to. Can we.

[E]

Communication is the key into a successful relationship and a great built house.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

I feel like on this project I definitely flew out there a lot earlier, but now that I am 36 years pregnant, I should probably be flying. We're trying to handle it the best we can from here, but obviously there's a lot of.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

Questions or I guess my number one rule is to never assume and. Yeah. And I feel like when you're designing something that's so far from there, like you have to assume that some. I don't know, you have to really trust.

[B]

Yeah. You have to really trust.

[E]

You have to really trust your people.

[B]

We did a project in Nashville. Yeah. Like last year, a couple years ago. And it went really well. And I think the reason it went like shout out to Harder Russell in Nashville, Tennessee, because the reason it went really well is because the builder was so good and he had an amazing supervisor who was on site every single day and like set up his office there. And I think that's the key. You can do remote design projects or you can build a house somewhere you don't live, but you have to have set up your team. It goes back to kind of what we talked about at the beginning. You have to set up your team knowing those conditions at the beginning and made sure the builder you selected is the, you know, has a supervisor who's going to be on site every single day. It's not one of the general contractors that doesn't have a supervisor and he's trying to visit five or six job sites over the course of a week. Those are just things you have to have pre planned.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So the more if you're going to do an out of state project, the team matters a lot and there needs to be someone on site every single

[C]

day, all day planning and anything.

[E]

I mean, like even if it's here. Yes. Because you've done houses. Like we did a house in Key west and it was fine. Everything was great.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

It just all depends on your people,

[B]

your team Your team matters. Your team matters a lot.

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay, so true.

[A]

We alluded to this a little bit before we started recording. How does one maintain their sanity during a renovation? Like there. You know, I think you've kind of painted a picture for everybody of the challenges and, you know, the hiccups that happened. So what. What would you both say has been something that you. Keeps you going?

[E]

I would say hire a designer because they take. They take all of that brunt from you.

[B]

Yeah, they've already thought through the solutions before they've presented the problem to you. I think, for me, personally, I try to remind myself that every time something goes wrong, I have this initial gut reaction, like every client does, and I'm really upset about something, and then I. I remind myself, this is an opportunity to make it better. You know, that's the phrase I keep repeating to myself, like, this is an opportunity to make it better. So how. How do I turn this into a positive opportunity to make it better? Because sometimes you get really cool solutions out of, like I said, happy.

[E]

Happy.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Out of access, which is what kind of gives you that dopamine hit. So that's what helps keep your sanity going through the process. You're like, oh, wait, this turned out really nice. So, you know, something went wrong with a casing, and it doesn't work. And you go, oh, you know, I have some extra slab. Can I just put a marble trim around the casing? And now all of a sudden, it looks higher end and more custom. And so I think turning these negatives into opportunities can help you bridge that gap of. Of the frustration.

[E]

I think it also makes you more creative.

[B]

It makes you more creative. It pushes you. Pushes your limit and adds more detail. It adds that next layer of detail.

[A]

Yeah.

[E]

So I will feel like just watching clients, like, I'm not going through a massive renovation like Stephanie, but watching clients go through this, it's always the same up and down, up and down. They get really excited. They lose their sanity, and you gotta, like, you gotta talk. You gotta talk about the cliff. And, like, I. I'm like, I promise you, at the end, you'll completely forget about all of this.

[B]

It's like giving up.

[A]

Like, what's my next renovation?

[E]

What's my next renovation?

[C]

It's like giving me same thing.

[B]

It's really birth.

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

I want to do it again now. Yeah.

[E]

See?

[A]

Yeah. Wait. Okay.

[E]

It's emotional.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like giving birth. Right? You. You are so overwhelmed. You know, you're getting those labor contractions. You're so overwhelmed. You know, you're getting the bad news. You're so overwhelmed. The process is awful.

[C]

The.

[B]

I. I don't know if this is everybody's experience, but those last two weeks before you go into labor, you're like, every time creeps by so slowly. It's the same with the renovation, right? Like, the time creeps by so slowly. It's. You know, you're in the middle of, like, headaches and heartaches, and your budget is overblown and you're crying and you're

[C]

emotional, and it never goes the way you saw it on hgtv.

[B]

It goes the way you saw it. It never goes the way you thought it. Your birth plan's out the window. I mean, it's. It's. It's very similar to the experience I had giving birth to my children. And then you. Do. You forget about, like.

[A]

Then you're like, I wanna do it again. I want five kids.

[B]

You get to the end, you get this dopamine hit of walking. Beautiful house. And sure, maybe it's not exactly perfect and everything, you know, like, this little drywall has a crack, and there's still some punch to do over here, but there's still that huge dopamine rush. And so then, like, a year later, two years later, you're like, I want to do that again.

[E]

We have a client right now, actually, that she. They just. We actually just finished their renovation, like, last year, and then they moved.

[A]

No.

[C]

Oh, my gosh.

[E]

And so now we're doing their house there. And she was like, I don't know if I want to do a renovation. And then. And something about the faucet was leaking or something. So now we're like.

[D]

She was like, let's do it.

[E]

Let's. You know, they have a. There's another house. They bought two, then we're renovating that one.

[C]

So it's, like, amazing.

[E]

It's. You know, it's, like, addictive sometimes.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I think that dopamine hit, like you said, it's the. It's finally, like. And. And everything you do is so visual

[B]

in the sense of, like.

[C]

Like, again, it's impacting how people are living their lives every single day. And it's there in your face. And so when it's working, you're like, wow. That, like.

[B]

And I think similar to. Similar to our analogy of birth. I think, like, if you can do mental prep work, you know, my husband and I have this conversation this morning with our builder. If you could do the mental prep work of saying, here is what's going to happen. What? To the best of our ability to plan. These two months are gonna be really painful. These two months are really painful. And here's why, like, here's what's gonna happen in this two months. And you could kind of mentally start prepping yourself for, you know, you can't plant, you can't guess everything that'll happen, but you can kind of know, okay, during this phase of the project, this is gonna be the most challenging aspect. And here's why. You could start kind of, you know, what are my coping mechanisms gonna be? You know what? The same way you go into any kind of difficult mental. I just, I don't think we can under estimate or under communicate how these are really big mental loads that you're taking on. When you're building a house, you're spending the most amount of money you might ever spend in your life. You're, you know, dealing with some super emotional attachments and situations to the place you're going to live and possibly raise your children in. Or. So it's a lot going on in your mind. So, yeah, you need like a therapist. You need mental coping mechanisms.

[A]

That actually is a great question to ask your contractor. What are going to be the hardest months of this renovation? And then like, plan your. Or not plan your life around that.

[E]

Right.

[A]

Like, don't sign your kid up for soccer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Don't, you know, don't try to plan a girls weekend.

[B]

I mean, or don't try to live through it. Like, maybe it's not a good idea if you have two really small children and you've got all this going on and you have a career. Maybe not a good idea to try to live through a kitchen renovation and a bathroom renovation or xyz. You have to budget and pre plan for the idea that you're gonna have to live somewhere else for three or four months.

[A]

What would you say are the hardest time periods? Would it be like, demo? Is it the end?

[E]

It's the end.

[A]

Okay.

[E]

I think I feel like that's when most people lose their sanity is at the very end.

[B]

I think it depends on what the reasons are. I think if you're trying to live through. So what we were specific to, what I was referring to is we're trying to live through the second portion. So for us, and particularly for my husband, knowing him, the prepping him is the most. The most challenging part is gonna be when you, like, can't access your front door. Everything's a muddy wreck, everything is a disaster. You're trying to get Your kids out of the car, you know, just pre prepping that that's gonna be emotionally taxing, trying to live through that portion. But for a lot of people, the end is really hard because the. You've. You've already spent a lot of money. Things have already gone wrong. You might already have maxed out your 20 to 30% overage budget that you needed to have. And there's still bills coming in really frustrating and you're tired and you're ready to be done and it's still not done. And that crack in that drywall hasn't been fixed yet. And like it's that. That's where I think that people really tip over the edge. So it depends on. I think there's like different. Like you said, the emotional roller coaster, different ups and downs.

[E]

I think a lot of the times too, it's like there are stages that things that have to happen in order. It has to go in order. And I think clients don't that. So they'll have like days that are LS that nobody's working on their project. But that is just something we have to really like make sure that they understand that nobody's been here for two weeks.

[B]

And why has nobody been here?

[E]

We are waiting on somebody. Yeah, we have to get this done prior to us.

[B]

Like the tile guy went to visit his mom and he's not been back for two weeks and we can't get another tile guy. You know, it's that kind of stuff.

[C]

Or they're supposed to come out and approve this. The city has to come out and approve this.

[B]

Or you have inspections and rating on.

[C]

We can, all we can do is

[B]

sit here like, like it's true.

[C]

Like we can't do X without them here. So like we have to approve this.

[E]

But that's why it's nice for us to like understand that because that's how we help gauge our clients and make them understand that this is normal. Like don't.

[B]

And. And I think a huge portion of what contributes to this is. Were all your materials on site?

[A]

Did you. Did you pick it out? Because are you going to pick out

[B]

something that's delayed or not? Because if you delays. If you haven't. If you haven't picked it out, if you didn't do the pre planning work and took the time to do the pre planning work and you just like went into it with the scheme done, maybe your cabinets picked out in your countertops, but like I didn't pick out the hardware. Then you are stuck with the choice of But I don't want this faucet. But this is the only one available. And so I think. Or you're stuck with we have to wait and then that cascades. But you can't. You can't get it this installed yet. You can't get this installed yet. So I think going back, the. The more pre planning you can do, the less likely to have lulls you will be to have.

[E]

I was gonna say, like, if you wanted an unlacquered grass like faucet, a lot of those are 21 days. Days.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[E]

From order date.

[B]

Which is great now because when we first started during the pandemic, even since six months, I mean, you know. So how.

[A]

What percentage of your materials do you think you should have. Physically. Physically have in order to start demoing?

[B]

I, for this second phase, want a hundred percent of my materials on site because I absolutely don't want. We're trying to live through it, so I don't want lulls. So if you're trying to live through it, a hundred percent of your materials need to be on site. Site.

[C]

But she has a place she can put it until there's doors locked.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

You can't. I can't put my faucets though. Like. Yeah. So we've been storing them at our rental.

[E]

If you're working through a vendor, they will hold or that the plumbing, like a lot of our clients, like we have. You want something is ready before demo.

[B]

You want them 100% accessible. Let's put it that way.

[A]

Like it doesn't have to be at the house.

[B]

My appliances aren't on site. Like, like sub zero. Still got my appliance, you know, that kind of stuff.

[C]

But they're ordered warehouse.

[E]

Like they're, they're, they're ready to go and ready to be templated.

[B]

Yes. Your. Your stuff's marked or like some. Your tile I would say is delivered or your tiles at a warehouse in it. In here.

[E]

I think it really depends on the tile. Yeah. Sometimes we wait. If it's something that they stock, then we'll probably wait to make sure our tile quantities are exact. If it's something that they don't stock and we're waiting four to six months for. Yeah, we're gonna go ahead and guesstimate and probably order a little extra.

[A]

Extra.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[E]

Just in case.

[C]

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's all the variables.

[E]

It's the variables.

[D]

Yeah.

[E]

So I mean, even like your cabinet hardware, we've had to wait like nine months before on some hardware.

[A]

So you gotta really want that cabinet hardware.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, you gotta really love it.

[E]

Beautiful.

[B]

Gotta really love it.

[A]

It's gotta be really special.

[E]

This is a little bit more time towards the pandemic. They were a lot better.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It was more expensive, but still some

[E]

of them are about six months.

[A]

Yeah. Taryn, what about you? What was the hardest part in your renovation? Like? Were there certain time periods where you were like, oh, this is really awful. I'll never make it. And we also have to revisit your comment from earlier.

[C]

It's like, it's like you said, I don't. I don't remember anymore. So it was all. It was all hearts and rainbows, right? Yes.

[E]

It's beautiful.

[A]

Now you forget, did I complain? The good part is, is we recorded

[C]

a lot during that period. So I probably go back with everyone else in here, every week's trial and triumph.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I distinctly remember when the guy told me, he was like, no, we painted that newel post. I had like new posts custom made. And he was like, they came and stained them to match the floors. And I walked in as they were halfway done with this like hand carved thing and it was a different stain. And I was like, that's not the same stain. He was like. He was like, no, it is. This is your stain. And I was like, that's not my stain. That's not. And it was.

[A]

What if you had layer too?

[E]

Is it.

[C]

Well, it already.

[E]

I mean, is it the same wood species?

[C]

Yes, it was the same wood species.

[B]

But even that can sometimes change the color.

[C]

But he couldn't. It was a different. It was a darker tone in the floors. And so like. And it was stained.

[B]

It just. That happened. As you go through this, you kind of intuitively know, okay, well, wood species different. You know, even the same wood species sometimes absorb things differently. And so. So you're a little less surprised by it. But for someone who's not, there's a lot of hand holding that needs to happen through that. Cause it is hard. It's a gut punch. I mean, that's a. That's a gut punch. When you've like pictured this railing and the floor and everything matching.

[C]

No, I designed that.

[B]

And you designed to be perfect.

[D]

And it was custom made.

[C]

Yes. I think it's because I didn't do so so much. This was like a one thing I was like, felt strongly about. And of course that was the one thing that got ruined. That they were like, of course, like, we'll pay for you to get another one. And I Was like, I. And this was one. I had been waiting. We could not move in because I had two very small children. And there were no railings. There was no railings on any staircase until somebody would die, even if. So we had to wait. And so, yeah, then they were like, no, we can have it remade. And I was like, so that I can go to this woodworking guy to make another one, to buy the wood for it, to sand it down and make these carvings. No.

[B]

Like, no, just.

[A]

Now it's ruined.

[C]

Thank you.

[B]

So that's a big thing that I think we talk to clients about, is when you reach that point in the project, the lesser of two evils. Do you. Oh, yeah. And this is. There's no. There's no right or wrong answer here. But it's like, do you wait and have it done the way you wanted it, or do you push forward, accept the way it is, and just live with it? And that has been my. That's been a big challenge. There was one tile that was cut incorrectly in my son's bathroom. And nobody else will ever notice. And no one cares. And everyone's like, why do you care so much? But I see it. And I still. This is a year later. I'm still talking about this one time. I can't get over it because I see it. I'm like, it ruined the whole bathroom for me. It ruined the whole bathroom. The whole bathroom is ruined.

[A]

It's trash.

[B]

It's all trash now.

[A]

Okay, on that same note, though, but would you think that. I would think that there would all. There would be some things like that where you're like, this. I'll never not think that this is ruined. But then I would also think there might be some things where you maybe don't even notice. You're like, oh, yeah, that was wrong. But, like, I don't even care. Or like, it doesn't impact me the way something. And how do you know which one it's gonna be?

[B]

It's the emotional investment you put into the thing. The floors, in the closet. Like, who cares, right?

[A]

Do you still think. See that Newell post?

[C]

I can only think of that one because there was emotional investment. Because I also. The guy I went to was like, just design me a beautiful. And I, like, gave him a tear. And he's like, you design furniture for a living. Please draw me exactly what you want. And I was like, I don't want to. And so I like. I drew it exactly to, like, dimension, right? And I got the cap to match the stale railing. Like, I Picked up the stair railing shape and profile. Had to get the big fat topper. Anyway. It was a whole. And I think because I was so invested in how that looked, that to then just ruin it with that one last thing you needed to do, you know, like, it was all in place. It was perfect.

[E]

Perfect. Yeah.

[C]

It was like the last thing.

[B]

So. Yes.

[C]

Emotional investment. I think.

[A]

So you still walk past every day and think it's ruined.

[C]

Yeah. Cause I can tell. I don't think anyone else has ever been like, wow, this is kind of darker up here and then lighter down here. No one else ever said anything, but I'm like, well, I feel like my clients do.

[B]

You never know. You never know what's going to be.

[E]

They're going to be very particular about.

[B]

Because I don't. I sometimes am. I'm not able to always predict with a client what they're emotionally invested in their mind. Right, right.

[C]

It doesn't always.

[A]

Probably some things that they are just like, whatever.

[B]

It's.

[E]

Yeah. There would be things that I'm more emotionally invested.

[C]

And then they're like.

[E]

And they're like, oh, it's fine. And I'm like, no, it has to be. I will fight my ground on this.

[B]

I think for me, the reason the tile in the bathroom is still. Is always. Is just always going to be ruined to me is because I did decide to fix it. I, like paused everything. I was like, we're rip. We're taking these pieces of tile out. We're fixing it. But then the new tile that was shipped to me had the wrong veining. It was just a bad. It was a bad veining lot that. And that was what I was left with. And so it's just. It was just like the problem that kept getting worse. So finally I just said, we have to move on. And I will never not. See that just looks bad.

[C]

See. Yeah.

[E]

That is the one thing about if you do or like tile early and what if you need more the dialogues. If you're doing natural stuff, making sure, you know.

[B]

Yeah. I think one of our big pushes with clients is always as natural materials as we can get. So, like, what's the most natural material? Because that will age with your house. And I think we haven't gotten into this topic, but in terms of satisfaction long term with a project, you know, people do a renovation, they do a quick renovation. Sometimes if you pick the trendiest thing and you are, you know, know, going with the option that's the most budget friendly option and the most trendy and it's that perfect. Like, Venn diagram juxtaposition of fitting the two. That's gonna go away in the next five years. And so five years from now, you're living in this space. You look back and go, why does this look bad all of a sudden? And it's like, well, all the. All the stuff you're being sent through Instagram or through beautiful magazines or through tv, all the stuff you're being sent is like, we've moved past this. So your brain's now like, well, this is no longer. This is no longer the thing. So then you're dissatisfied with something you just spend a lot of money on. So I think we push a lot of natural materials, things that will age, things that are timeless.

[A]

Yeah.

[E]

Authenticity.

[B]

Authenticity. And that's kind of where the, like, history background, art history background come in and pulling things like, hey, you know what's always been in marble? It's always been in Rome's built out of marble.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's damaged. It's cracked. It's like. Like, you're not. You're not going to scare me with etching. You're not going to scare me with some, like, divots. You're not going to scare me with some issues with the marble, because Rome's built. Rome streets are built out of it. And it's still beautiful. You know, like, the floors at Chatsworth are 400 years old, and they're black and white. Checkerboard marble. Like, that's always going to be a

[E]

thing, which we always love. Yeah.

[B]

So that's kind of, I think, pulling from those things when you're doing a renovation, that would be another big, big thing I would tell people to think about is, like, if it. Is it gonna age? If. Yes, then 5, 10, 20 years from now, you're probably still gonna like it if it doesn't age. I'd question what. What that means to the future of your materials.

[C]

That's great.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[D]

That's solid advice.

[E]

Thank you.

[C]

Especially, like, you're just. If you're starting to dive in some deep end.

[B]

You've gotten a lot out of this.

[D]

Like, my notes are expensive.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

There you go.

[A]

What are your big takeaways, Liz?

[D]

Oh, my gosh. Okay. Well, first of all, binders.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Because I'm an office supply girl, so.

[E]

Yeah.

[D]

Kidding.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Starting with binders.

[B]

I'm real happy about that.

[A]

I will say, Karen, I remember, did Google spreadsheets and had, like, tabs for every. Like, she had a paint.

[C]

I have that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you're not a paper person.

[E]

We also send it to them digitally smart. And we also send it and we have it on site.

[C]

So you definitely want to.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[D]

You want that.

[C]

You want the one so that they

[E]

could open it, drive, and, like, have them all and, like, labeled and, like,

[B]

under no circumstances hop on. That Instagram trend where people are doing the QR codes. They will never do that. Like, no.

[C]

Oh, like, scan people do QR codes.

[B]

Yes. There's this trend. My builder and I were laughing at this. There's this trend on Instagram that. That certain builders are pushing where they're like, look, we've created this QR binder, and you have to scan it, and it all pops up on your phone. Phone. And I'm like, they won't even open the binder that I've handed to them. No, they are not sky.

[E]

No.

[D]

Nobody.

[A]

Liz and I know this better than anyone.

[B]

No one uses a QR code.

[A]

No, guys. They're never going to use it, period.

[C]

I feel like the best we did was painter's tape and, like, Sharpie.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Like, on this here.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, and it was just written on tape, but, like, it was measured out, and we would measure and tape things. And when the walls weren't finished, we were, like, writing on the drywall, like.

[D]

Yeah.

[E]

So for, like, sconce placements. And, like, I will go and write on the drywall.

[C]

Yes.

[E]

And I will, like, here. And here's the measurement. Here's where you're.

[A]

Do you do that for paint too? Like, go.

[B]

Pain.

[E]

I would prefer to just take, like, a. The paper has the paint swatch on

[B]

it and tape it on the wall.

[E]

Tape it on the wall.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Sorry.

[A]

Binders. Okay.

[D]

No, so, yeah, so bind binders is step one to get those. And then asking chat GPT. Like, even before I meet with my architect and just kind of say, like, what are. What are the things that are going to be my biggest question points? Pain points.

[E]

All of.

[D]

Just kind of all of that. Figuring out my appliances. Oh, yeah, yeah.

[C]

That was the first thing we ordered. I remember we, like, chose our builder, and I think they literally were like, you need to go. And this was pandemic times, but they were like, like, you need to literally go today and, like, pick your appliances. And I was like, that feels kind of crazy. Like, and they were like, it was 18.

[E]

Design the kitchen. We have to have it.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And at the time, it was 18

[C]

months at the time, I think ours. I think it was 18 months when we did it. And I think it took that long.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

Yeah.

[D]

But then figuring out which appliances you want, not just like, which fridge do you want, but like, do you want, you know, a microwave drawer versus, you know, the countertop talk?

[E]

Double oven versus A, you know, range or.

[D]

Yeah.

[E]

Gas.

[B]

What features?

[D]

Like. Yeah. Induction versus, yeah.

[A]

But also I feel like there are certain appliances that are so expensive to fix. Like I have.

[D]

Right.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I had. I have two friends who both have had Sub Zero fridges in their house that the previous person had put in. Right, right. Right now they're 15 years old, and so they have to get them replaced and they're like, it's like $10,000 just to replace this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I can't get a new fridge because it will. Like, it was custom fit for this fridge.

[D]

Right.

[A]

So.

[D]

Or there.

[A]

How does one take out that knowing, like, I'm a huge.

[B]

We're huge Sub Zero fans. I genuinely believe that they are the premium best product on the market for refrigeration. Like, that's.

[A]

I've.

[B]

I have drinking the Kool Aid. I've guzzled that Kool Aid.

[C]

Like, I love.

[B]

I love me some Sub Zero. Huge. Sub Zero went up to their factory too.

[E]

Yeah, it's amazing.

[B]

It's. I mean, like this whole story behind it. You know, if you go in, I have a history person, right. So I like the history. The whole story behind it. Like, you know, this guy invented this so that he could help his son who had diabetes and they could refrigerate his medicine. Like, way back before that was even a thing. I bought the whole education. Did have an education. I bought the whole story. I think they're. I think the best American market.

[C]

Market.

[B]

The. The thing for me with Sub Zero is that they can almost always be repaired. If you contact both Sub Zero, they can almost always be repaired and they will last like 20. I mean, we. We pulled refrigerate. We've pulled sub zeros out of kitchens that we've renovated that are still in perfectly good operating condition that charities will take and they will still get another, like, good 5, 10 years use out of them. And there's amazing. They're really good product. So I highly recommend Sub Zero.

[E]

But they are pricey.

[B]

They're very pricey too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Very pricey.

[E]

Yes. Yeah, they are pricey, but, yes, they're good products anyway.

[D]

Yeah, well, I think that there are trends in appliances too. Like, like, okay, so I don't have a dishwasher right now, so I sometimes just go and look at them and.

[A]

Sure, girl. Oh, my God. I love my boss.

[B]

Why don't you have a dishwasher right now?

[D]

Because I have a 1930s home that still has the 1930s kitchen.

[A]

Cool.

[E]

Oh, wait, that's really cool.

[B]

And you're gonna redo that, though. Oh, that's so cool, though. We'll talk maybe not as cool.

[D]

We'll talk in more detail later.

[B]

She's got a cool old home.

[C]

She's got a cool one. Yeah.

[D]

There's really not. There's nothing. There's.

[B]

Yeah, okay.

[D]

It's. It's the type of kitchen where all of the countertops are like. They're more furniture pieces versus. Yeah, I mean, we'll talk later. It's not that cool.

[E]

But.

[D]

But, like, there's. There are dishwashers that, like, I think Cafe has one that is drawers.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

So a lot of people really love the drawers.

[B]

They like the drawers. That's a thing right now.

[E]

Go ahead.

[D]

That seems to be, like, something. If that breaks down, like, is that difficult to replace?

[B]

Like, I don't know the answer to that yet, though, because I don't think

[C]

they've been in the.

[D]

They're so new.

[A]

No.

[E]

The drawers still the same size as a dishwasher. Dishwasher. So, like, they're about 4 inches the width on them. And, like, sub zero does not make them. Because when I was up at that, well, everybody was like, can you please make the drawers? But they are kind of safer, if you ever think about it, because if you have this. This dishwasher that comes out and goes on the floor, if you have toddlers or you're washing dishes and you back up and it's really easy to trip over.

[B]

Or if it's that door. Have you seen the new countertop dishwasher? Like, it goes in your countertop. I'm putting one of those in my scullery. I'm real excited about it.

[C]

No.

[E]

Oh, my gosh. I feel need to do more research.

[B]

It's a new appliance. It's a new appliance. So, like, fixability. I have no idea. I could be totally messing myself over for later. But it's this thing where, you know, it's trendy right now to wash your fruit. I mean, well, I know we all wash our fruit, but it's trendy right now to, like, we're supposed to be washing our fruit.

[C]

Wait, I know that it's trendy right

[B]

now to, like, really wash your fruit and vegetables. It's a thing that everyone's saying. You can't just wash your. It with water. You Guys, it's not good enough, apparently. So this little in a counter dishwasher does the dishes, but it also has a fruit and vegetable washing set like setting and you could just stick everything in there and it washes it for you. It goes in your countertop.

[C]

I am going to go after this cuckoo.

[E]

Yeah, it's crazy.

[B]

I mean, I'll let you know. Contact me in a couple years. I'll tell you how it's going.

[C]

I bet you can be like loving it, loving it.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm so pumped about you.

[C]

That's so fun.

[B]

So. But yeah, with new products, I think that is. You're taking a little bit of a risk because you don't know, right?

[E]

Yeah, but they do. I think they're making them like 18 inch if it's like a smaller space and then they have the 24. So a dishwasher is always standard 24 inch width. I don't care. Okay.

[D]

Love that.

[E]

Any across.

[D]

You've just totally sold me.

[A]

Like, I'm good.

[E]

Bosch is really good. I love Bosch dishwasher co's and we sell a lot of askos.

[B]

I like my Bosch dishwasher a lot, lot.

[A]

I really like the. The top tray.

[C]

I love silver way.

[E]

That is really.

[A]

That trash.

[D]

Both of my sisters have bosh. So yeah, I'm super known for their.

[E]

Their dishwasher. They're for laundry.

[D]

They're really good.

[B]

Does anybody here use their sterling silver? Do you use it like on a day, day to day basis? Do you have it? Do you use it?

[C]

I use it and I put it in the dishwasher.

[A]

I have it, but I don't use it daily.

[B]

Every day. It's just, it's our. It's what we use. Yeah, yeah, we have the dishwasher. Does it look as pretty as it once did? But I highly recommend for. I feel like the demographic of people that might be listening to this podcast might have some sterling silver sitting around somewhere. I'm just telling you, girl, put that in your drawer. Use it every day. Yeah, just use it every day. It's not doing anything for you sitting in the closet in the box. Just use it.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You could take it to a silversmith later and have it repolished up to its perfection. But I've never regretted deciding to use it and put it in the dishwasher.

[E]

Sure.

[A]

It does, like feel better.

[B]

So much better. Food tastes different off of silver.

[A]

Yeah, it really does. It does. I like, I really. I get really weirded out by overly heavy silverware. I hate that.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So that I love about that. About Sterling. Like, it's light, which is nice.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, sorry. Continue with your list of appliances.

[E]

Yes.

[D]

Start with your limitations. So go with, you know, what you either have for budget or what you have available to you. We talked about stone a lot. Okay. Looking at your calendar and figuring out when the biggest pain points of your. Of your renovation are gonna be and kind of plan around that. I love that. I'm just really just doing a whole recap of this.

[A]

No, I love this.

[E]

I was gonna say. I would say one thing. When you're planning a renovation, if you do not want. Ls just think about Thanksgiving and Christmas because there's gonna be lots of lulls during those two months.

[B]

You're almost gonna. You're gonna have very little things happening between.

[E]

Zero things happening.

[A]

Got it?

[B]

Yes.

[E]

Like month and a half. So. Okay. Just be forewarned.

[B]

Yeah, that's a hard.

[A]

I mean, to kind of dub also.

[E]

But think about that, because. And, you know, everybody wants everything for Christmas and. Or the holidays.

[B]

Oh, right.

[E]

You need to start in July.

[B]

Yes. Or earlier.

[E]

So we can make sure that.

[A]

Or January.

[E]

Yeah, January is great.

[B]

January is a good time. And I would say on that, when you're talking about calendaring, if you can get a contractor. If a general contractor you're working with will say, sure, I'll put together a schedule for you that shows you that's. I would say that's a. That's a big green flag for a good contractor, because most of the time they will. And they take notes. Most of the time they refute. They will not. They will absolutely not give you a schedule which prevents you from even doing some of those things that you're talking about.

[E]

Right.

[B]

But yeah, big green flag when interviewing contractors is will they give you a timeline?

[D]

Oh, that's awesome.

[A]

Okay, keep going.

[D]

Okay. Keep going.

[E]

Okay. I apologize.

[B]

No.

[A]

Love the note. Jump in. Yeah, we like that.

[D]

I mean, well, the calendar is super important too, because you have to budget and plan for those times that you will have to move out of the space. Even if it's for. If you're trying to live through it, even if it's for a shortened period

[B]

of time, you have to budget and plan for the times that you have to pay your bills. I mean, I think that's a huge thing. That's frustrating and difficult when you're trying to get a schedule and they won't give you a schedule and you're like, well, when are you going to bill me for this? Because I need to know.

[A]

Yeah.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

There's money available to give to you,

[E]

you know, operate where, like, it's on. Depending on what they've done, that's when they get their next payment. So you should know, kind of like, understand.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

Is it this month or is it in three months? Or is it, you know, just. Wow.

[D]

Okay. If you're living through the renovation, have a hundred percent of the materials either on site or on standby and ready to install, and I think that wraps it up. I think we've. I mean, we covered so much. This has been so helpful.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, of course.

[E]

Anytime.

[B]

Yeah, Happy to do that.

[E]

I feel like we're. We're always still learning on renovations, too. You're always like learning something.

[B]

I think if you. I think my last thought and kind of talking with what you were laying out there is as you go into your kitchen renovation, I would say as you're planning your team and you're getting your contractor together and talking to your architect, ask them to give you materials list. You know, if you're designing this yourself and you're working through the. Trying to do the binders and everything yourself, chat will help you. But ask them what they're going to want to know. And sometimes the builders will even give you a schedule of when they want to know decisions by. And that's really helpful. But. But still, go ahead and pre plan all that. Don't wait for their deadlines.

[E]

Right.

[B]

Because their deadlines are usually like, well, I need to know this faucet because it's going in next week. So you don't want to wait until,

[A]

you know, a month before that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because you got to order it.

[B]

Yes.

[E]

And even though it changed constantly, I

[D]

feel traumatic for you.

[E]

So, like, maybe this plumber could actually get out two weeks early. And they told you you didn't have it for two weeks. Weeks. And then you're getting phone calls and you're having to make really fast decisions really quick.

[A]

Yeah.

[E]

Happens a lot.

[B]

Yeah, it happens a lot. The one thing I don't think we went through is like, red flags on contractors.

[A]

Yes. Give us those.

[B]

I would say. I would say my biggest red flags with general contractors are if they don't have a clear how they charge. So, like, if they're not either telling you, we are cost plus. And in my contract, it says, I'm going to show you my cost, and then I add my 20% or whatever it is. That's kind of industry standard on top 10 to 20 different. If that's not what they do, I'd be A little bit weirded out. You know, if. Or. Or at least lay it out really clearly in their contract with you on how they're charging, because the industry has so many professionals in it. Some really amazing, some that might do okay work, but I'm not sure the ethics behind some of the ways they're charging. So I would be. I would just be super clear in the contract. And if you feel any ick at any point in time with your contractor, I would really, really dial in why that is and not be afraid to walk away. And I think that's the biggest thing that people have. They get in the middle of a. Of a situation or they're in the middle of a renovation and something has gone. Something the contractor's clearly done, something that doesn't feel like that. People with the way they're charging or something, and they're afraid to walk away. Don't be afraid to walk away, because that's. That's my biggest red flag. What's your biggest.

[E]

I wasn't gonna. I was just gonna bounce off of that. I was gonna say, I feel like if we're. The designers are, like, one of the first people to hire. I would say. I say, like, a lot of my clients have had me read the contract.

[B]

Yes.

[E]

With the contractor and, like, look at allowances and be like, does this look right? Usually allowances do not.

[B]

Yeah. Laying that out, I would say another.

[E]

Understanding it.

[B]

Yeah, understanding that. And then another red flag is, you know, that they won't. That they're really not able or willing to give you any kind of timeline or time understanding. I think that is. Makes me a little uncomfortable because if you can't even give me any type of basis for. Yeah, I'd like to start this around this time or we're waiting on permits. Permit should be about this time. And then we can start here. If they're not willing to have that discussion, that. That makes me uncomfortable. And then another huge red flag is if they don't. If they themselves are not keeping a small enough amount of projects where they can be on site a lot, they either need to. They need to have a supervisor who's able to be on site. And if they can't do either of those things, then I kind of question how many issues we will have during the project. It's kind of my.

[E]

I was going to say my number one rule with contractors is to never assume.

[B]

Yes. Never assume.

[E]

I will. I always, like, reiterate that multiple times. To never, ever, ever assume that that is what the answer is. Because it'll usually come back and bite you.

[A]

Like, do you mean in terms of picking choices? Do you mean like.

[B]

Oh, yeah, for sure. Don't leave it up to them. If you're like, I don't know what HV is that? I don't know if hvac. Then I want you just put whatever you want up there. No. No. What?

[E]

No, when I say don't wear a suit, it's like, like you be like, well, surely the tile guy knows how that I like, I'm trying to say

[D]

like that you want something centered, where

[E]

to start the tile.

[B]

Yes.

[E]

Like, cuz, like it's his job. Right. Like, don't assume. No, you need to be there and be like. Or we do a lot of tile. We do tile diagrams.

[B]

We do tiles.

[E]

So we show them where to start it. That's another binder. Okay. Tile, tile, tile, tile.

[C]

There's a lot of Assuming the tile.

[E]

There's a lot of assumptions.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Any kind of.

[E]

And don't assume like, you know where they're gonna place like electrical outlets or like, do you want a cell light? Do you want. It's.

[B]

I, I think that's the biggest.

[E]

Don't assume that everybody knows what you were thinking and that was like how it should be done because they might have a whole different way of doing it. Right. Is that a better way to.

[A]

Yeah, no, I. No, I think that helps. Like assuming where the tile should go. That seems to your point, like a duh kind of thing. Like you would assume that they would assume. That's a good point.

[B]

Yeah. Or assume the grout color. Assume that they know what grout color should go with this tile. I think that's a big but.

[E]

I feel like that's a selection. This is more like a but I

[B]

feel like I'm always surprised by how many people execution are willing to allow their contractor to select some of these things that they didn't even know they're supposed to select. You know, they'll be like, I didn't. I don't care. Like, just put the grout color. Because they've seen a million pictures of this particular tile they've chosen with this. It always has the same grout. So like, well, surely they'll use that.

[E]

Don't ever assume. Or even like, it's like we have all these plans. Like, don't assume that they've read these plans.

[B]

They've read the plans.

[E]

Yeah. So make sure that they have. Like, I don't. Even though we do have these plans on site. I. Maybe it's just like a troll thing for me. I don't know. But I like to go over it with this and make sure, Just double check.

[B]

Yeah, that is kind of in picking your team. If, if, if a contractor we're working with doesn't happen to have a supervisor that's willing to be on site and they aren't them, are themselves not on site all day, every day, then that's kind of where teams like ours or other teams who are offer project management services come in where you are on site and you're filling that gap. So that's kind of something to take into account. If you don't have someone on your side that's willing to project manage for you or you can do it, your, it really becomes critical that the, the contractor's doing that. I think the other thing for me that's a major red flag when working with contractors is do they work in tandem with the other people you've chosen? Like, are, are you, is this some random guy that your architect's never heard of before? Why is that? You know, that doesn't mean he's bad. That doesn't, that doesn't mean they're bad. But I, I'd ask those questions and I'd be asking for references of other people they'd worked with and trying to understand because we all want to save money. So sometimes we, we really want to go with the lowest bid. You know, this guy has told me he can get it done for, you know, 30% less than these other bids that I've gotten. Yeah, you have to know why. Yeah, you have to know why. Because oftentimes I find the reason that this bid is so much lower than these other bids is because they have not taken into account a lot of conditions you're going to run into. I, I, we've played this game with clients you have. There are some really expensive contractors for sure, and they are just more, they're just more. That's, you know, you're getting a different level of service, you're getting a different experience. It's just, it's a different thing. You get what you pay for. But if you got the middle bid guy and then you've got this lower bid guy and they're still off by like 10 or 15%. I gotta ask why? And what has this guy not taken into account that this guy has? And a lot of times it's the detail work. Like, oh, yeah, I've always worked in, here in Atlanta, Ansley park. And I know that the floors and the foundations always have these issues. So I've already factored into your budget that we're gonna have to correct this before we can do your kitchen renovation. But this guy never worked at Ansley park, kind of up and coming guy. He didn't factor that in. So at the end of the day, if you actually take what you spent with the lower guy and what the upper guy, sometimes it's actually more. It's actually.

[A]

We've talked about.

[C]

That's a really good. Like finding someone who's done your. Again, if you have a 1930s house

[E]

in life, I find somebody that knows.

[D]

That knows historic homes.

[A]

Yeah.

[E]

Just like the 1920s, 1940s house that we're doing. Like, you have to have somebody because there is a lot of trials and tribulations that come with sore columns.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

If you get a really low bid, I would really wonder what he didn't include as opposed to are his prices just that much less? Because labor is. Labor is labor. You know, it's. So that's where we've done that exercise with multiple client projects where we go back just for our knowledge and we price. We like take pricing out.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And sometimes it's more. Because also maybe this new up and coming guy, he didn't. He's never worked with marble before. He usually has only his subs work with ceramic tile and floor and decor stuff. And that's great and that's fine. But you've actually specified this like $30 a square foot marble. And he didn't. He doesn't know some of the nuances to that. And like, you need to put self leveling down. You need to do some of these things. And so now you've got a mess on your hands and you go, but you. But you didn't know. And he goes, oh, yeah. I mean, you know, what do you do in that circumstance?

[A]

And every other thing that you want to put into your kitchen relies on that guy. So you then settle because it's like, well, do I need to?

[B]

Exactly.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, God.

[C]

You did remind me.

[E]

Yes, I know. Reminding me.

[C]

They laid the tile in our downstairs bathroom and we were like.

[B]

Like this.

[C]

This one is all up and down. This one is for the floor. And we got there and the one little inset for your shampoo, they were like, we put that tile up there.

[B]

And I was like, I did. I didn't tell you to do that.

[C]

I did not want that to highlight it. I did not want that nook, like, more decorative. I wanted it to blend with. And it was one of those that they were like, well, we can redo it. And you're like,

[A]

island. Yeah.

[C]

You reminded me that, actually.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I mean, and. And I think they had a little fun.

[C]

That was my. And I was like, no one told you that fun.

[B]

And if you, if you try, you're

[A]

not here to make design choices.

[E]

No. Yeah.

[B]

Why do I think that they should.

[E]

That's what I was going to say is like, when you were talking about. It's the project manager. But there are things that change on site. Yeah. And maybe this is my control, but like, I want to make sure that I'm making those decisions, not somebody else. And then I come in. I'm like, because it's a lot more expensive to go put it back.

[C]

Oh, is that good? We'd have to go find more of the marble. And it was going to match. And I was like, no, we're done. It's now done. You did this. Thanks.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think that's.

[E]

There are things that happen like that too. And like, it's like, why did you do this?

[B]

A good team is important because communication. If we're working with a contractor and we. And he. He's. We're out of state. We're out of state and we're trusting that he's going to call us about those things. The Nashville project or the Key west project went so well because the builder actually did. Like, they didn't make decisions on their own. They called and said, hey, we've run

[E]

into this problem Kentucky builder. He calls.

[B]

So they call and they ask the question. That's, you know, that's needs to be communicated to the builder. Like, you are not responsible for making any decisions. I need you to call me or call my. Whoever is doing this for you. Like, that's a.

[E]

That's.

[B]

That needs to be communicated.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And if, If a. There should be a pre construction meeting with every team member there at the same time. And you're all going over these things. Pre construction meeting, very important.

[D]

Writing it down.

[E]

Another advice is to retain 20% of your budget.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Whatever your budget is. Take 20 to 30%.

[E]

And then I say 1930s home. Am I returning 30%? But.

[D]

Okay, that's.

[C]

Yeah. Well, that helps.

[D]

No, it's. It's.

[C]

You'd rather know now?

[E]

I'd rather know that you're gonna find. Because we can't X ray the walls. We. We have no idea what's behind them.

[A]

And.

[B]

Or if the foundation is like, foundation.

[C]

You know, it's more than likely wrong.

[E]

And.

[D]

Oh, believe Me, Believe me, when we first bought the house, every contractor that came through would. Would say, like, huh. Oh, I've never seen that before.

[C]

So you might be 35.

[B]

Just give your. Okay, 35. I'm just saying.

[E]

I. Yeah, I mean, like, that's what we had to tell our client, especially in this 1920s, because it was also not taken care of very properly.

[B]

Right.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

How well was taken care of?

[E]

The 1940s one was taken care of. So there had been some renovations, but this one had not been. And so I was like, you probably want to reserve 31st it. Just because there's a lot more that we just don't know what's behind.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

You got extra budget.

[B]

Well, and. And you want to be really careful. Right. Because you don't want to. You don't want to start dipping into that 20 to 30% you've reserved before construction starts. Like, that truly is during construction, because that's where your budget comes from.

[C]

If you.

[B]

If somebody messes up your tile and you're like, no, I will never be able to live with this. We need to get this fixed. Like, that's where that.

[D]

That.

[B]

That's where.

[C]

That's a good point.

[B]

Yeah. We've.

[E]

We've opened up floors and found that the. The structural supports, you know, like, I don't.

[B]

The spacing's wrong.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The joists.

[E]

It was. The beam was. It was kind of. It was out here, which, you know, they're always like, the post and the beam are supposed to be.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[E]

So we had to replace all of that. And that was what was holding. That was the main part of the house. Holding up the house. So I was like, it was maybe lucky that we did this renovation and we found this, because you. You never know what it could have happened in, like, so. Or, you know, anything.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Well, thank you so much for this reality check.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

Yeah.

[E]

Thank you. Any time. Can we tell you all the things.

[A]

I love it, man. I. I'm still keep. I need you to explain your comment about wanting to do it again or come back to that in another episode.

[C]

Yeah, we'll unpack that later.

[B]

Also, like, are you. Do you want to change your house again now, like, after?

[C]

No, I want to. I.

[A]

She wants to build another house.

[B]

Oh, yeah. That's.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

It's just so fun.

[C]

You didn't even.

[E]

You would know even now, like, really know.

[B]

Right.

[C]

That's what I mean. It's like, I learned so much, but, like, I'm not going to build another house.

[E]

No.

[C]

Yeah. But then I keep seeing lots around the neighborhood, and I'm like, could that

[B]

be our 2026 fun plan?

[A]

I really like it there.

[C]

Just like, live there and so are. It's like, what if we like it even more?

[B]

What if I want to try a different style?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

What if I realize I don't like tall ceilings?

[A]

I'm feeling bored.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

Inspired.

[A]

So come build over. I love it.

[C]

Or that. That would probably that make more sense.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

You can get your fix at my house.

[B]

Come on.

[C]

It's.

[B]

It's like a draw.

[A]

Stephanie, Ashley, thank you all so much. This was wonderful. Oh, my gosh. I feel like we covered so much. Graphic.

[C]

We did. Covered so much.

[A]

And thank you for sharing the unvarnished, you know, trials and tribulations of renovating with us.

[B]

My pleasure.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

All right. Tell everyone where they can find you, follow you and see your work.

[B]

You can find us at www.studiowellington.com or you can find us Studio Wellington on Instagram. And that's our show.

[A]

You can find all of the show notes on our blog howtodecorate.com podcast.

[C]

To send in a decorating delay, email your questions to podcastallarddesigns.net so we can help you with your space.

[A]

And of course, be sure to follow us on social media.

[C]

AllardDesigns.

[D]

Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts so you never miss an episode. And please leave us a review. We'd love to hear your feedback.

[A]

Until next time, happy decorating.