Alex Hassell - Rivals, Rejection and Taking Acid at Alton Towers

Summary

How To Fail With Elizabeth Day

Episode: Alex Hassell – Rivals, Rejection and Taking Acid at Alton Towers

Date: December 10, 2025
Guests: Elizabeth Day (host), Alex Hassell (guest)
Live episode recorded at the Barbican, London

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Episode Overview

This episode features actor Alex Hassell, most recently acclaimed for his turn as Rupert Campbell-Black in Disney's TV adaptation of Jilly Cooper's Rivals. Speaking live in front of an audience, Hassell reflects with candor and wit on his three personal ‘failures’: grappling with self-confidence, living with a severe onion allergy, and his self-professed inability to get into trouble. Throughout, Hassell and Elizabeth Day delve into the insecurities, peculiarities, and life lessons wrought from these failures and his acting career, weaving in stories about his upbringing, marriage, therapy, and even a psychedelic trip at Alton Towers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Life Imitates Art: On Rivals, Fame, and Vulnerability

• Portraying Rupert Campbell-Black
  • Hassell reflects on playing such an outwardly confident and "irrepressibly attractive bounder" (03:13) and the tension of embodying a character so far removed from his own self-image.
  • He humorously details the practicalities of the role—like frequent spray tans and the infamous tennis court scene.
    • “I smelt like biscuits for seven months.” (06:16, Alex)
  • The tennis court scene, where Rupert is completely nude, represented an existential milestone for Alex.
    • “Taking all of my clothes off and literally having nothing to hide behind. It’s like, either I am Rupert or I’m not.” (14:45, Alex)
• Cast Chemistry & On-Set Experience
  • The Rivals set was unusually congenial, partly due to a deliberate casting ethos of checking references to ensure "no assholes."
    • “They phoned four or five people that every one of us had worked with before to make sure that we were nice people and good to work with... If there’s no assholes on set, you’re the asshole, but I hope that’s not true!” (10:01, Alex)

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2. Failure 1: A Lifetime of Self-Confidence Struggles

• Roots in Bullying
  • Hassell discusses being picked on at school, especially regarding his sexuality, and how those formative years embedded self-doubt.
    • “I thought that I was just a piece of shit in that sort of way…” (15:43, Alex)
• Slow-Burn Career and Internalized Rejection
  • He shares the grind of the acting world, expecting early success, but finding instead “a slow drag up a steep hill.”
    • “Every time I’d get a job that I would think would, like, cross over some line and get me somewhere else, it just sort of didn't.” (16:27, Alex)
• Therapy, Growth, and Empathy
  • Therapy has been instrumental, both personally and professionally:
    • “I think I might have stopped acting had it not have been for my therapist.” (07:42, Alex)
  • The paradox of needing both a “thin skin to be a good actor, and a thick skin to withstand being an actor” is a recurring theme. (07:46, Alex; 08:35, Elizabeth)
• On Choosing Difficult Roles
  • Alex is consistently drawn to parts that intimidate him, seeking creative, personal courage at the “edges” of his own talent.
    • “I want to know how good an actor I am and find the edges of that out.” (21:50, Alex)
• Learning from 'Failure'
  • Encourages reframing vulnerability as a unique strength:
    • “If I have anything to offer as an actor... it’s my vulnerability, it’s the fineness, it’s the sensitivity... the things I wish I didn’t have so I could feel stronger to be an actor are potentially what help me... hopefully a good actor.” (45:50, Alex)

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3. Failure 2: The Allium Affliction—Life Without Onions (and Garlic, and...)

• The Awfulness of an Allium Allergy
  • Alex is allergic to all alliums—onions, garlic, leeks, chives—causing severe physical distress.
    • “God, I love onion and garlic. Fuck you. That’s what I’m thinking.” (29:20, Alex, joking)
  • Discovery was gradual, following childhood stomach problems and continued issues into adulthood.
  • The allergy frequently derails social and professional situations—he recounts an infamous incident vomitting on a churchgoer as a child. (30:55, Alex)
  • Perpetual vigilance is required at restaurants and on set. On a film set, gas and air was the only thing that mitigated the pain:
    • “I did the rest of the day totally off my tits, but I didn’t, I wasn’t puking. And actually, it was one of the best scenes in the film.” (32:56, Alex)
• Social Perceptions and Navigating Dining Out
  • He humorously rails against the suspicion and skepticism food allergies often inspire:
    • “It’s not an affectation!” (32:07, Alex)

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4. Failure 3: Not Being (Badly) Behaved

• Painfully Responsible, Perpetually Early
  • Alex admits to being “very obedient,” overly concerned with others’ comfort, and never quite matching the ‘cool’ profile expected now that he's famous.
    • “Since Rivals has come out... have been invited to sexy events and I’m always the first person there.” (34:46, Alex)
• Family Background
  • Raised by a vicar (father) and a hospice nurse (mother) who fostered children: a context of kindness, care, and service.
    • “I wonder, weirdly, that I’ve had like a Jesus complex in terms of, like, wanting to put my needs behind those around me.” (37:12, Alex)
• Work Ethic and People-Pleasing
  • Describes trying to avoid disrupting crew members’ jobs, hanging up costumes to help others get home early, and ensuring a positive on-set environment.

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5. Psychedelic Youthful Rebellion – Acid at Alton Towers

• Naughtiest Moment
  • When pressed for his most rebellious act, Alex admits:
    • “I did acid at Alton Towers. That was really interesting. When I was 16 or 17… we went in the 3D cinema and on like roller coasters. It was nuts.” (43:04, Alex)
• Self-Reflection on Growing Up
  • Recognizes that his twenties, “painful in my pain,” shaped a more cautious self but hints he’s eager to reclaim enjoyment and pride.

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6. Family, Death, and Acting as Empathy

• Family Response to Risqué Roles
  • Family was proud but “it was quite weird for them to watch some of it”; mother is unfazed—“I saw you when you were young. You looked exactly the same.” (41:41, Alex, quoting his mum)
• Lessons from a Vicar and a Hospice Nurse
  • Talks openly about constant family conversations around death—a backdrop to performing and seeking connection on deeper themes. Acting, for him, is about shared humanity and empathy:
    • “If I can play parts that people see aspects of themselves reflected and they feel a bit better about their experience or less alone... I think I want that for myself and therefore want to attempt to give it to other people.” (37:57, Alex)

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7. The Factory Theatre & Embracing Risk

• Improvisational Theatre as Artistic Crucible
  • Co-founded Factory Theatre, dedicated to maximal risk-taking on stage—random props, unrehearsed blocking, shifting roles.
    • “We played a festival at four in the morning when everyone, including us, were high as kites.” (23:28, Alex)
  • Recounts emotional moments—like doing Hamlet’s “what a piece of work is man” while holding his infant nephew, moved to tears. (24:39, Alex)

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8. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “To be a good actor, I think you have to have a very, very thin skin, and to withstand being an actor, you have to have a very, very thick skin.” (07:46, Alex)
• “Acting can be a bit like being in an abusive relationship… sometimes you feel like the most important and the best and the most sort of seen and loved... and then it’s just taken away.” (08:55, Alex)
• “I want to know how good an actor I am and find the edges of that out.” (21:50, Alex)
• “It’s not like I’m a massive nervous wreck all the time. It’s definitely not, you know, I’m capable of working… Please employ me if you are a director and here—I’m not that much of a mess.” (20:38, Alex)
• On his allergy: “God, I love onion and garlic. Fuck you. That’s what I’m thinking.” (29:20, Alex, making the audience laugh)
• On work ethic and decency: “I want to hang my costume up at the end of the day so that they [crew] can go home as early as I can go home.” (37:57, Alex)
• Stage superstition facts: “So, why you don’t say good luck, you say break a leg... The piece of wood on the crank for the curtain was called a leg. So if the play went so well, you had to bow so many times, they’d bounce the curtain so much that it would break the leg.” (46:25, Alex)

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Important Timestamps

• 03:13 – Introduction and background on Alex Hassell’s career and Rivals role
• 05:39 – On season two of Rivals and set experiences
• 06:16 – The tribulations of spray tans
• 07:46 – On therapy’s role in acting and the paradox of actor's ‘skin’
• 10:01 – Describing the camaraderie and casting philosophy on Rivals
• 13:40 – On self-confidence as a recurring challenge
• 14:45 – Vulnerability of the tennis court nude scene
• 15:43 – Recounting school bullying and its impact
• 21:50 – Fascination with difficult, intimidating roles
• 22:30 – Factory Theatre’s philosophy and memorable moments
• 29:13 – The severity of Alex’s allergy to the allium family
• 34:46 – On his law-abiding, early-arriving persona
• 37:12 – Family upbringing’s influence on his sense of responsibility
• 41:26 – Family reactions to Rivals and his roles
• 43:04 – Tripping on acid at Alton Towers as a teenager
• 45:50 – How vulnerability is the root of his acting strength
• 46:25 – Origins of “break a leg” and other stage superstitions

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Tone & Atmosphere

• Warm, humorous, self-deprecating, and candid.
• Hassell is thoughtful and articulate about fear and vulnerability, but lightens the conversation with comic timing and vivid anecdotes.
• Day balances admiration with relatable self-revelations and supportive curiosity, fostering an open and safe environment.

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Conclusion

This episode is a nuanced, funny, and poignant examination of failure—not as something to hide, but as a foundation for creativity, empathy, and (eventually) self-acceptance. Alex Hassell’s openness about insecurity, physical and psychological vulnerabilities, and his earnest desire for connection both on and off screen, offers a version of success that rings far deeper than public acclaim. Listeners come away with not just stories of audition fiascos and dietary disasters, but an argument for why it’s okay—even necessary—to embrace our not-so-perfect selves.

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[End of episode summary]

Transcript

[Alex Hassell]

Genuinely, I think the tennis court scene.

Taking all of my clothes off and literally having nothing to hide behind. It's like either I am Rupert or I'm not.

[Elizabeth Day]

Hello and welcome to how to Fail.

This is the podcast where each week.

I ask a guest about three times.

They failed in life and what it.

Taught them about doing things better.

This week we have the actor Alex Hassell on the podcast.

Now many of you might know him.

As Rupert Campbell Black from the Disney TV series Rivals, the adaptation of the terrific giddy Cooper novel. He did me the honour of sitting down opposite me in front of a live audience at London's Barbican and we spoke about three of his failures in life. Spoiler alert. It involves being allergic to onions. I hope you really, really enjoy it. I am so excited about the news that the second season of Rivals is currently being filmed.

I can't wait.

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So my guest tonight is the actor Alex Hassel. Yes, and he is thoroughly deserving of those. Whoops. You'll have seen him most recently in the smash hit TV adaptation of Jiddy Cooper's Rivals. And when I say seen him, I really mean you will have seen him. All of him. Hassell played the irrepressibly attractive bounder Rupert Campbell black and managed to give that somewhat dastardly character a soulful quality that left both taggy and and a legion of viewers absolute putty in his strong, spray tanned hands. Hassell's own life is a far cry from Rupert's debauchery. He was born in Southend on Sea in Essex, the son of a. Yes, big up the Essex massive. The son of a vicar and a nurse who had four children and fostered more. Hassell was 12 when he went to watch a local musical and realized acting was was his future. After school in Chelmsford, he studied at Central School of Speech and Drama where he met his wife, the actress Emma King. Before Rivals, Hassell appeared in a number of theater roles including Henry V for the Royal Shakespeare Company in the next door Barbican Theatre. Ten years ago he was also in the TV adaptation of the Miniaturist alongside Anya Taylor Joy and the BBC HBO fantasy series His Dark Materials. His recent film roles include Young Woman in the Sea with Daisy Ridley and he is the co founder of the Factory Theater Company which he set up partly to be able to act when the roles weren't coming in. Rejection is of course a given in any actor's life. When asked recently how he coped with it, Hassell replied, therapy and a really good marriage. London, Please welcome to the stage Alex Hassell.

Oh Alex, are you. Are you sick of people objectifying you?

[Alex Hassell]

No.

[Elizabeth Day]

Okay, good, good. I'm glad to hear it. So, Alex Hassell, tell us about season two of Rivals which has just been commissioned. We're very, very excited.

[Alex Hassell]

Well, unfortunately Rupert dies in the first episode. No, no he doesn't. There's not much I can tell you, probably because I actually don't know anything because they won't tell us because they don't trust actors to Keep secrets. But I'll probably be on a horse. I'll probably take my clothes off again. I don't know how many, how much. We haven't had those conversations. But, yes, I believe most of the cast, without spoiling anything, are back. Some of them may not be. Who knows? But, yeah, just very, very much excited about doing it.

[Elizabeth Day]

How many spray tans did you have to have for season one?

[Alex Hassell]

I smelt like biscuits for seven months. I mean, weekly spray tans. I got to know my makeup artist extremely well. I bet she would have to spray time. The only time, the only bit that she wouldn't spray was when we did the tennis court scene. So I had to spray myself. But I've never done a spray tan before, so I don't know how much one should do. So there was a fear that I might be too dark or too light. I wasn't sure. I think we got away with it.

[Elizabeth Day]

Depends on the surface area.

[Alex Hassell]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Elizabeth Day]

Now, I wanted to end on that quote about therapy and a really good marriage because your wife is also an actor. And I wonder if it helps being married to someone who gets it, who understands the pressures.

[Alex Hassell]

Yes. Obviously, I don't know different, but I would feel that it does. Yes. I mean, it is a very, at times, obviously, wonderful and can be extremely glamorous life, but it's a very unusual, odd one. You're away from home a great deal of time. You know, I had to pretend to have sex with lots of people. So there are. Yes, there are very sort of individual, sort of challenges and peculiarities about the gig. And I think it definitely helps to be with someone who understands this. Yes. The what? Your mindset, I guess. And. And also understands that you'll have to go away. And that kind of, you know, we're kind of used to it, I suppose.

[Elizabeth Day]

And does therapy make you a better actor?

[Alex Hassell]

Oh, that's a really good question.

Yeah. Well, there are two aspects of acting. There's acting and then there's being an actor, which are, I think, often diametrically opposed. To be a good actor, I think you have to have a very, very thin skin, and to withstand being an actor, you have to have a very, very thick skin. So definitely, therapy has helped me be able to be an actor. And also I am very inquisitive into myself and the way that I think and the way that the relationships I'm in work, and that can only help empathy and sort of understanding the human condition and the ways that brains work and emotions work. So, yes, I think I might have stopped acting had it not have been for my therapist. So I'm very grateful to him if he's listening.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yeah, that's such a sophisticated and interesting answer. And I relate to that idea of having a thin enough skin to let the world in and to feel empathetic, but a thick enough skin to withstand the exposure. And it's almost like we need something breathable but protective, like Gore Tex, like that's the ideal kind of skin for anyone.

[Alex Hassell]

I think I've said before that I think that acting sometimes can be a bit like being in an abusive relationship, in that you can sometimes get this light shined upon you very, very brightly and you feel like the most important and the best and the most sort of seen and loved and witnessed. Like every part of you can be witnessed, even the sort of grubby, shameful feeling bits depending on the part you're playing, and then it's just taken away and no one wants you and they don't. They're not interested. And it's like you're a piece of shit. And so trying to weather that and sort of take. Undo one's sense of self from that has been a real task. And I think I'm a great deal better at it now. And I think also somehow being better at it has allowed me to find greater levels of a career and stuff like that.

[Elizabeth Day]

Weirdly, I'm going to talk more about your role as Rupert Campbell Black, as it pertains to one of your failures, but I just wonder if you could tell me a bit about the filming of Rivals and how much fun it looks like it was. Was it that fun?

[Alex Hassell]

I think it was more fun, yeah. We genuinely all got on so incredibly well. The producers and all producers say this, but it was really true. They phoned four or five people that every one of us had worked with before to make sure that we were nice people and good to work with. And it really worked. There was. I mean, they always say that if there's no assholes on set, you're the asshole, but I hope that's not true. We just had such a laugh and as you know, as you can see, the cast list and guess you know, everyone has got a filthy sense of humor and which really helps in a show like that. And it's very game and really supportive and really kind and really funny and we just had an absolute blast. Yeah. And also we're in absolutely beautiful places, getting to pretend to be in the 80s in those sorts of costumes and, you know, riding horses. And it was a Real wish fulfillment, kind of. Yeah. Yeah. I genuinely. I'm so excited to go back and do the second season. Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

What was it like the first time you met Dame Gilly Cooper?

[Alex Hassell]

I was really nervous. I knew that she had approved my casting and everything, but actually, I'd forgotten this is the first time I met her. So we had this read through. You do it like a table read, which is when you sit round and as many of you are there as possible and you read the script. I think we read three scripts or something. And I had just come back from Mexico where I caught a terrible stomach bug and had been in hospital off the plane. I got wheelchaired off the plane. So I was like this gray husk of a man turning up. And I already was quite nervous about being Rupert, so I sort of, for quite a while, slightly wanted to avoid her in case I could see in her eyes that she disapproved of my casting. But after a while, I really felt endorsed by her.

[Elizabeth Day]

But you didn't choose to audition for it, did you? You didn't think you'd get it?

[Alex Hassell]

Yes, in this instance, I got sent, I think, just some scenes, one of them being the.

Post Concord shag scene.

[Elizabeth Day]

Which, if anyone hasn't seen Rivals opens the entire show.

[Alex Hassell]

Yeah. Spoiler alert. There is shagging.

And I think maybe the tennis court scene.

[Audience Member or Guest Interjection]

Actually.

[Alex Hassell]

I kept my clothes on and I just read it and thought, I'm never going to get that part. It said blonde hair and blue eyes and all of that sort of thing. But also, I just. As I'm sure we will talk about, I don't feel like that kind of person at all. And I felt that I would not get the job. There was no way that they would choose me to get the job. I understood that it was, you know, that lots of people would be trying to get this job. And it was a cool thing. And I just thought it wasn't worth it because I thought, I won't get it. And I also thought if I got it, I would feel so ill at ease that I wouldn't be able to pull it off. So I said, no, I didn't want to audition for it. And my agent said, shut up, Shut up. We've talked to the casting director and she thinks, like, she thinks you'd be really good and, you know, just do it. So I did it and didn't hear anything for four. I didn't expect to hear anything. Didn't hear anything for four months or something while they saw every other actor in the world. And then and then got a call to go and do those scenes with the producers and then with Bella as a chemistry read. Who plays Taggy? She'd already been cast. And then it was quite quick from there, but. And then I had to sort of get my head around it, which took most of season one.

[Elizabeth Day]

Your agent's here tonight.

[Alex Hassell]

Yes, she is, yes.

[Elizabeth Day]

So I just want to say a massive thank you to Anna.

[Alex Hassell]

I would also like to say a massive thank you.

[Elizabeth Day]

Thank you on behalf of all 1,900 of us here tonight. Your first, which follows on so seamlessly from this discussion, is a failure of self confidence.

[Alex Hassell]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

So when you did get to play Rupert, how much of a struggle was that to inhabit someone who is so arrogant in many ways?

[Alex Hassell]

I mean, I really wish this wasn't the case and it feels very kind of masturbatory to talk about it, but I did. Which is appropriate in some ways, but I did find it very intimidating. I did question. My wife will know very clearly. I spent a long time really questioning myself whether I was. I get, you know, acting is vulnerable for me anyway, is a vulnerable thing. And I am really drawn, for some perverse reason, two parts that intimidate me and that I think I'm probably not capable of playing. And so there is a. You know, you do live in a. I do anyway, for certain roles and for certain amounts of time, live in a very vulnerable place. And you fear that the people that have employed you are regretting employing you. Genuinely. I think the tennis court scene.

Taking all of my clothes off and literally having nothing to hide behind is like, either I am Rupert or I'm not. Like, this is it. This is what I am and who I am. And, you know, it was sort of freeing, actually, to. From then, I felt more easy about it somehow.

[Elizabeth Day]

You've spoken also very humorously about the fact that everyone else on set was told to treat you as a certain, like, physical specimen, which obviously you are. But did that help your confidence?

[Alex Hassell]

Yeah, yeah, it was. Going home was slightly difficult sometimes afterwards. Yes, it was extremely helpful. I really hoped that when we finished season one, a bit of Rupert would rub off on me and I'd be, like, strutting around. But unfortunately, that hasn't quite happened. But maybe two seasons.

[Elizabeth Day]

We just have to keep recommissioning it.

[Alex Hassell]

Until you get your life. Until my ego is enormous.

[Elizabeth Day]

Tell me where you feel this lack of self confidence started. When is the first time that you can remember feeling it?

[Alex Hassell]

Yes, well, I was picked on at school. That was, I think, a big part A really big part of it, I think. You know, unfortunately, I think they got into my head about my sense of self, like my sexuality and things like that, in a way that I just thought that I was just a piece of shit in that sort of way and.

That. And also I was really quite, in some ways, very confident when I was young and came out of drama school. And I think, as lots of people do, expected to sort of stroll into work and like high profile work. And it just didn't happen. It's been a very. I talk about it as being. And also, I want to caveat this by saying.

One'S career and how you feel about it is very much an individual thing. I'm sure people would look at my career and think I should fuck off in saying this, if you know what I mean. But it feels like a slow drag up a steep hill if, you know, it hasn't sort of. This is like a really big thing for me to be here and, you know, people know who I am and that kind of thing. I think I thought I was going to just sort of stroll into being successful and it just didn't happen. And I got jobs and stuff. And every time I'd get a job that I would think would, like, cross over some line and get me somewhere else, it just sort of didn't. Or it did in a much slower way than I. I think it did ultimately, but in a much slower way than was palpable. And one starts to question what's wrong with me? Like, why can't I get jobs? Am I crap? Am I not. Do I not look right? Or is there something uncharismatic or, you know, like it's difficult not to turn in on yourself in that aspect.

[Elizabeth Day]

Thank you for talking so openly about something that so many of us will relate to, that so many of us probably struggle to articulate. And to hear someone like you say it, who we have all seen on screen embodied this confident nature, we wouldn't necessarily expect that. But I think what it gave you was this soulful quality to Rupert.

[Alex Hassell]

Yeah, I wonder that that is true. I actually think, potentially, I don't know that when I got the job, I, you know, they were like, we gave you the job because you were so confident. I was like, I was auditioning for you. Of course, I was pretending to be confident. But I do think that they actually probably made a really good, maybe unconscious choice of casting someone who is very, very far from Rupert Campbell Black because.

You get the. Potentially the finer, more hard to express aspects, I suppose. Because that's where I sort of am and live more and I had to work to do the other side of it. Whereas if you cast someone maybe, who was more like that, it might have been harder, potentially for them to have found the other stuff, I guess. I don't know.

[Elizabeth Day]

The school experience, what do you think it was that was being picked on as someone who also was picked on at school? When I was at school in Belfast, obviously I don't have the accent, so I didn't fit in. But what do you think it was about you that made you this target?

[Alex Hassell]

Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, now I think maybe it actually was because I did have lots of good qualities and.

I didn't fucking care about what they wanted me to be like. I didn't. I hated being at school in Essex and I didn't. Sorry for those who shouted out about South Ed there. It wasn't South Eddie. I felt very much a fish out of water. I felt, I guess, very artistic and sort of vulnerable and fine spirited, I suppose, and that, you know, school in Essex can be blunted out of you a bit.

Or in the 90s, anyway. But that's definitely not how I felt at the time. I thought there was something deficient in me that they were picking up on, like, so many people, like, my whole year, like, almost it was sort of. Well, that's what happens with kids, isn't it? They can jump on a bandwagon about that because it's easier. And I understand that and I, you know, I'm forgiving of that, but it wasn't a great experience.

[Elizabeth Day]

I'm so sorry you went through that. I wonder if any of those school bullies have been in touch since you played Rupert Campbell Black.

[Alex Hassell]

I've got some. I mean, one amazing thing that happened is when I think, also partly because people that know me know that I'm not like that and know that I've been working really hard to try and, you know, get somewhere. And I got so many incredibly lovely messages that make me want to tear up, you know, it was so gratifying and it means so much, but it's so fascinating. It's, you know, really a big impact in that apart from Reba Campbell Black, most of the characters I play are evil, horrible, violent murderers. And I think there is a desire to say, I would fucking kill you if you, like, came near me again, like, unconsciously. Obviously I wouldn't. I would be able to punch them very close to the face. Yes, but not in the face.

[Elizabeth Day]

In. And of itself a skill. Yeah, not everyone, but I agree with you that I think fuel is fuel and sometimes what drives us is wanting to prove people wrong.

[Alex Hassell]

Yeah, I do think that's a massive part of it. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think that drives me hugely, I think, wanting to prove them wrong and prove myself wrong, I think. And in therapy the other day, my therapist said something. I was talking about feeling. I was talking about what I would talk about here and I talk about failures and stuff and I was talking about confidence. And he was saying that obviously I do actually have a really massive sense of confidence. Otherwise I wouldn't be sitting here talking about my failures in front of you. I wouldn't be putting my taking all of my clothes off in front of everyone. I wouldn't be being an actor. I wouldn't. You know, I obviously believed that I could do it and can do it. So there is that. And I want to get more in contact with that part of me because. And it's not like I'm a massive nervous wreck all the time. It's definitely not, you know, I'm capable of working, I'm capable of like, please employ me if you are a director. And here I'm not. Not that much of a mess.

[Elizabeth Day]

Well, there was this very interesting quote.

That I read that you gave about loving difficulty. You said, I regret almost immediately that I'll take a job and I'm really drawn to something that I don't know how to do and I'm not sure I'm good enough to do. Then I get massively insecure about it along the way. But is there a sort of creative aspect to that difficulty that you thrive on?

[Alex Hassell]

I think I want to know how good an actor I am and feed. Find the edges of that out. I think I want to go. I don't think I. I just. I think maybe I could do that and I want to find out if I'm capable of doing it. I want to be in the mindset of someone else that doesn't exist, but like a different mindset of my own. I find that really interesting to explore. The idea that I could get through the other side. Yes, it means a lot to me, I suppose.

[Elizabeth Day]

And there's an exploration to the unknown, but the unknown in and of itself is quite fear inducing a lot of the time, I imagine. But tell me about the factory group, because I'm fascinated by this because that speaks to what we're talking about.

[Alex Hassell]

Yeah. So that's. That is entirely about being put in the most terrifying acting situation. So in a very, very quick summary of the work we do, I'll explain the first show that we did, which was Hamlet. And because we didn't have any money and we didn't want to try and make and raise any money, we didn't want to spend time doing that. So that meant that we had to have a cast that shifted. So we all learned a bunch of parts. So I knew 13 parts in Hamlet by the end of it. We all worked really, really, really hard on the verse pattern. So there was a sort of structure that would hold this chaos. If we were playing here, we would do maybe act one on the stage. Act two, we would put all of you on the stage and we would be in the balcony, Act 3 would be in the bar, Act 4 would be in the road, and Act 5 would be on the roof. And we wouldn't have planned that. Someone would have planned it, but none of us actors would have known. We didn't have any costume or set or props. And the audience would bring random objects with them, which we would then incorporate into the show.

So. And also sometimes we would say, right, we'll start on the stage here and then the actors will just decide. So you'd be playing Hamlet and like cajoling a thousand people into a different part of a building and stuff. It was so terrifying. It was so terrifying. But such an incredible crucible of learning. Like, if you aren't sucking in that environment, that means that you are capable of something and being able to hold people's attention. And I had some of the most revelatory sort of moments of connection to a text that I've ever had in those instances, because it was all accidental. We didn't have any blocking either, so we didn't know where we were going to go, obviously. So it was incredibly. We also was anti interpretation. We weren't allowed to decide what our characters were like or what they felt about stuff or what they thought. You just. This, this night, this is what it's like. And it was wild. Yeah. So we played in clubs. You know, we played a festival at four in the morning when everyone, including us, were high as kites. And like, we played in like the globe and we played in art galleries and it was kind of this underground thing for a while.

[Elizabeth Day]

And didn't you use your baby nephew as a prop?

[Alex Hassell]

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So people would bring like their dogs and like, my dad was the ghost once and stuff like that, for example. And so Henry, my brother bought Henry, who was Four weeks old and we weren't allowed to plan. Like if you saw something in the audience that you thought you wanted to use, you weren't allowed to decide, like early on, oh, I'm going to do that, because that would sort of kill the serendipitous feeling of it. Anyway, so I happened to pick him up for. What a piece of work is man. How noble in reason, how infinite in faculty, in form and moving, how express and admirable. In action how like an angel. In apprehension, how like a God. The beauty of the world, the paragon of animals. And yet to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me. No, nor woman neither. And I burst into tears while saying man delights not me. Because I was holding this incredibly innocent. Well, I didn't really know why, but thinking about it afterwards, because I was holding this beautiful, innocent child, full of promise and full of. And I just desperately didn't want him ever to feel like that, I suppose. And what was so wonderful about that is I couldn't have faked that, you know, that would have been bullshit. And it really communicated to me and to everyone in the room because it was totally accidental. Yeah, it was very scary. And I definitely think the experience of doing the factory really, really, really helped me in, you know, later jobs in terms of a feeling of a sense of self and a sense of I, you know, I do have something to offer.

[Elizabeth Day]

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[Audience Member or Guest Interjection]

Hi, everyone. It's JVN from Getting Better with Jonathan Van Ness. This season we've been talking a lot about hope. Not the fluffy kind, but the grounded, gritty. We're actually doing something kind. One of the places I term for that is Americans United for Separation of Church and State. They're this quiet and mighty force that's been working to keep religion and government separate so all of us can live as ourselves and believe as we choose, as long as we don't harm others. Church, state, separation touches so many of the things we care about. LGBTQI plus rights, marriage equality, reproductive freedom, and abortion access. Americans United is out here being one of the vital voices of reason, fighting in the courts and in Congress and pushing back against Christian nationalist efforts to force everyone to live by one narrow set of beliefs. You can learn so much more about what AU does and how to support their work at au.org/getting better. Your support, no matter the amount, helps to safeguard our freedoms. Americans United is fighting for freedom without favor and equality without exception. You can start a chapter in your hometown today. You can volunteer money or time, get involved in your community. Learn [e-mail] Better close your eyes.

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[Alex Hassell]

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[Elizabeth Day]

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[Elizabeth Day]

1-800-Contacts. We're going on to your second failure, which is equally profound and philosophical in so many ways, because your second failure is. Is your failure to eat onions.

[Alex Hassell]

Yeah, to be fair, it's onion, garlic, leek, shallots, spring onions and chives.

[Elizabeth Day]

Allium.

[Alex Hassell]

Allium. The allium family. And you are all thinking now, God, I love onion and garlic. Fuck you. That's what I'm thinking. And you're also thinking, but that's the first two ingredients in every single meal that you make. And fuck you again. That is true. Yeah, it's really a toad. Total bastard. Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

When did you discover this phage?

[Alex Hassell]

I think I had it as a kid. I had operations on my stomach when I was a kid and stuff. I had what my family would call a dog belly, which was like a massive, distended belly 100% of the time. Till I was in my 30s. You can see it in early jobs I did and stuff in the, you know, the bottom of a shot. I didn't know what it was like. Food allergies weren't a thing when we were young. So later on I was sort of shamed by a producer because I had this massive belly and decided to just stop eating everything and slowly reintroduce stuff and. And thankfully worked out what it was. And now if I do avoid them, I'm completely and utterly fine, but it's extremely difficult to avoid them. And I'll roll around in pain for a week. I'll projectile vomit. And it's awful, like the number of times and events that I ruined by puking on things and on people. Like when I was young. Yeah, the one potentially the worst. But it was a church fate when I was young and I, like, felt really, really ill. But we saw there was nothing to do about it and I was like, I'm gonna puke. So I thought, I know what I'll do. I'll go over to this side thing here and puke over that because that will be safe. It was three flights up on a, like, stairway and it went into slow motion as I puked and it hit this old lady, like, full on her whole back. And I had to go around and apologize to her and everything.

[Elizabeth Day]

Oh, Alex, that's low key trauma.

[Alex Hassell]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is a bastard. I missed two shows of Henry Sam, who's here, he went on as my understudy. Thank you, Sam. It's glib to talk about, but it is. It is actually of all sort of. It's a bodily failure, of course, but it's the most frequent thing that I'm in contact with all the time. It's like every single meal.

[Elizabeth Day]

And I mean, it sounds like it's very difficult to avoid.

[Alex Hassell]

Yeah, I just want to. Yeah, yeah, I get ill. Not that much, but, yeah, too much, really. Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

So when you go to restaurants. Sorry to get into the nitty gritty, please. But are there many restaurants that cater for that?

[Alex Hassell]

Well, we often try and phone in advance and stuff, but the number of times my wife and I have been like, in a different city. Oh, I will go to a restaurant. Wouldn't that be great? And then it's a bit too late. We probably should have gone half an hour ago. And then we'll go find a restaurant, be like, this looks great. And we'll sit down and it'll be like, this is lovely. And then they'll say, you cannot Eat anything in this restaurant. Like in Paris. I said, I can't eat gluten either, or onion and garlic. And he's like, why are you here? Like, why? Why are you in Paris? Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Elizabeth Day]

And there's some people who are like, that Alex hassle. What a Mariah Carey.

[Alex Hassell]

No, I do also say. I often say I can't include. I can't eat onion. It's not an affectation.

[Elizabeth Day]

Right, that's what you said.

[Alex Hassell]

It's not an affectation. But it's so annoying because I have to, you know, I phone up in advance and then I say it when we order and then. And they bring it and I say it and they're like, yes, definitely. 100%. 100%. And then the other day we were in a restaurant and we were like, great, excellent. This is lovely. I ate it, put it down. And they came over and went, oh, I'm so sorry. And I was like, ah, no. So I had to go home and drink salt water and put my fingers down my throat and, like, it's just absolute agony. Yeah. Woe is me.

[Elizabeth Day]

I'm so sorry. What's on set? Catering, like, for you, then?

[Alex Hassell]

Well, I have to just. Yeah. I mean, they take it really seriously, but I have to just hound them all the time. Yeah. I did get ill on a film set once, and the only thing that has worked, actually, so if anyone could, like, back black market, get me some of this, I would really appreciate it. But gas and air worked.

[Elizabeth Day]

Okay.

[Alex Hassell]

So I was. I did the rest of the day totally off my tits, but I didn't. I wasn't puking. And actually, it was one of the best scenes in the film.

[Elizabeth Day]

What was the catering like on Rivals?

[Alex Hassell]

It was all right.

[Elizabeth Day]

Okay.

[Alex Hassell]

Yeah, it was good. It was great. Okay. I think it'll be better in the second season.

[Elizabeth Day]

Okay, got it.

Just thinking about that, because we're of a similar generation, and when we were growing up, allergies were very much seen as not really real. And it sort of makes me think about Rivals as well, because it is a period piece, Rivals. But I imagine it was quite difficult sometimes to tread that line. There is a sexual assault halfway through the season.

[Alex Hassell]

Well, there's a sexual assault in the second episode by me to the person who ends up being my love interest, who is like 18 years younger than me.

[Elizabeth Day]

Was that awkward? Were you ever worried about treading that?

[Alex Hassell]

Really worried about that, yeah. And there were discussions about taking out or not taking out. And I think it's so important that they didn't I think that is what happened to lots of people and still does happen to people. I think it was a really bold thing of them to do. And I think partly, potentially what's connected with people is that it is a period piece. So all of those things do happen in the show. There's lots of smoking, there's lots of sex, there's casual misogyny and racism. And that it is not sanitized, it is not condoning any of those things. I think it's really clear to me that the show is not condoning those actions, but it is exploring how far we've come or not come by showing them.

[Elizabeth Day]

I think, okay, your final failure. This is such a good one. I can't wait to get into it. Is your failure to get in trouble.

[Alex Hassell]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

So are you a very well behaved man?

[Alex Hassell]

I'm so painfully worried about other people and they're like, recently, since Rivals has come out, you know, have been invited to sort of sexy events and I'm always the first person there. Like, I forced my wife. She's like, we could leave a bit later and I'm the first person there. And no one expects you to be there for like an hour and a half because you're supposed to be cool and I'm not cool. So, yes, I am. You know, I'm very obedient. I want to be on time and I want to be thought of as professional. I just worry about people and their feelings. I mean, obviously that's good, but maybe a bit too much.

[Elizabeth Day]

Do you want people to like you?

[Alex Hassell]

Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. I. It's not that as much really as I don't want to make people feel uncomfortable. I. My dad was a vicar, you know, Like, I. I think that's probably part of it. I was grown up to be responsible. People come around the house and like, you'd have to be sensitive. And I didn't rebel against my parents really very much. I've got older brothers and sisters and they'd sort of done everything in terms of getting in trouble and stuff, but work and being good at my work is really, really, really important to me and. And therefore I am sort of a bit obsessive with it, and therefore, you know, when we were shooting Rivals, it's such an amazing group of people, but I'd be like, going to bed and getting up early and working out and like, making sure my skin was good, like all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, I'd love to be more rock and roll and like, and more just feel less Worried about that stuff.

[Elizabeth Day]

I'm fascinated by your upbringing. Your dad was a vicar, your mum ended up as a hospice nurse and they fostered children.

[Alex Hassell]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

Before you came along.

[Alex Hassell]

Came along, yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

So clearly incredibly decent people.

[Alex Hassell]

Yeah, yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

Was there a pressure that you felt to be as good as them?

[Alex Hassell]

Not like they didn't sort of, you know, really, they're really lovely down to earth, you know, loving people, you know. And my dad became a vicar when he'd already been like, really late on in life. He'd already been an accountant, he was a Quaker, in fact, and he had a calling, essentially, and two years later was training to be a vicar. So he'd led a whole life and everything. So it's not like he was super dogmatic or any of that sort of thing. But I wonder weirdly, that I've had like a Jesus complex in terms of, like, wanting to.

Put my needs behind those around me. And it's really important to me that when I'm working that other people are enjoying the environment that we're in and feel comfortable and feel seen. I think I've realized recently that I think people feeling seen and me feeling seen and like the really, you know, partly why I wanted to come do this, I think to have the chance and the bravery to throw light on stuff that is quite vulnerable and difficult to talk about and maybe lots of people don't do it out loud.

If I can play parts that people see aspects of themselves reflected and they feel a bit better about their experience or less alone or something like that. This is very highfaluting. I know. And I'm like in Rivals. It's not like.

I think I want that for myself and therefore want to attempt to give it to other people. And therefore I want to be on time in case I fuck up this person's job who, whose time, you know, job it was to do the timekeeping. I want to, you know, hang my costume up at the end of the day so that they can go home as early as I can go home. All of those sorts of things.

[Audience Member or Guest Interjection]

Yeah.

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[Alex Hassell]

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[Elizabeth Day]

And I wonder if I could talk a little bit about your mother and that experience of working in a hospice. Do you think you learned from her and from your dad about life and death? And I know that's such a huge question, but I'm so interested.

[Alex Hassell]

Well, I mean, there are some things that in my family we just talked about all the time, like at the dinner table, you know. Yeah, death was just. That was my mom's job and my dad's job. I think actually my dad being a vicar has had a massive impact on my idea of me as an actor. Somehow I remember really clearly that I realized, like the factory, for example, we would do often in like church halls, it would be on a Sunday. It cost very, very little to come. It was like really egalitarian. People could bring their, like, people could walk around, people could bring their kids, people could be involved people. And essentially I was filtering this like, bigger idea and like this text that is this bigger text and trying to do it really rawly and openly. And I remember really clearly that my dad, when he would do sermons, would always use the same voice that he spoke to me at home in. He just had, you know, his John Hassell voice. He didn't like, turn on a performance. So the idea of trying to talk to people as a human being, I think I learned that. And I think that was a really big and I think empathy and the idea of accepting people as much as possible. And a lot of that I think has come out in my work in some way.

[Elizabeth Day]

So what do your family think of you as Rupert Campbell Black? What have they said to you about Rivals?

[Alex Hassell]

They're really, really proud. They're so proud. I Mean, yeah, I think it was quite weird for them to watch some of it. My mum was like, oh, it's fine. I saw. You know, I saw you when you were young.

I looked exactly the same.

And, yeah, they really took it in their strides, actually. Yeah. And I think they're so. You know, they've been alongside the difficult, slow drag up the hill, and I think they feel very proud of that. I've managed to sort of peek over the edge a little bit more.

[Elizabeth Day]

How old is your nephew Henry now?

[Alex Hassell]

He's 17. Now, is he 17? I think he's 16 or 17, yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

So has he seen Rivals?

[Alex Hassell]

Yeah, he has, yeah, they all have, yeah. Yeah, they all have, yeah. And, like, show me tiktoks of me and me and Bella and stuff like that, which is mind bending.

[Audience Member or Guest Interjection]

Yeah.

[Alex Hassell]

And, like, their friends, you know, I send their friends voice notes and things like that occasionally. Yeah. It's nice.

[Elizabeth Day]

Now, I don't want to sound Theresa May, but. Not a sentence I ever thought I'd say. What's the naughtiest thing you've ever done?

[Alex Hassell]

I ran through a wheat field once.

Was it a wheat field? Yes, with Theresa May.

[Elizabeth Day]

Oh, my gosh. Were you fully clothed or.

The image.

I know, sorry. It's eradicated.

[Alex Hassell]

I mean, the. No, I mean that. I think that's probably too personal. I did a bunch of, like, drugs and stuff.

[Elizabeth Day]

Okay.

[Alex Hassell]

I did acid at Alton Towers. That was really interesting.

[Audience Member or Guest Interjection]

What?

[Alex Hassell]

Yeah. When I was 16 or 17. Yeah. Mom, if you're listening, I think she knows this, actually. Yeah. And we went in, like, the 3D cinema and on, like, roller coasters. It was nuts. Wow. It was nuts.

[Elizabeth Day]

I bet it was much.

[Alex Hassell]

I was, like, much cooler and naughtier when I was young. I think that's the issue.

The failure. What I felt of as massive, glaring, painful. You're, like, obviously not where you think you are. Painful in my pain, in my twenties really transformed the way that I saw myself in a way that I'm still trying to get over now. And I'm really trying. And I really want to take this and the success of Rivals and what people think of Rivals as being like, come on, Alex, get over yourself, for God's sake. Like, enjoy your. Whatever you cut through the world being or are or whatever. And it has really, really helped. I mean, I'm so. It meant so much to me that people didn't think I was shit and gross and, you know, had a tiny penis.

Like, it meant an enormous amount to me that it's a part about which I Felt so vulnerable. You couldn't see that I felt that vulnerable. I think that has really, hopefully, is sort of tectonically changing aspects of myself.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yeah, Well, I often think that the art of pretending to be confident is a really important muscle to flex in order to get to be confident.

[Alex Hassell]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Day]

And I had this realization in my 30s where I felt a neurotic mess of insecurity and still do. But I wrote a male character in a novel who was incredibly bombastic and never questioned his decision. And I thought. And I had great fun writing that character. And I thought, well, if I can write that character and imagine what it is to be him, surely that lies within me, and if I could be just sort of 2% more him, maybe that would help. And so I wonder, not only Rupert Campbell Black, but are there other roles that have helped you flex that muscle of confidence? Henry V, for instance.

[Alex Hassell]

Yeah, I mean, I guess things have helped me flex a thing of confidence in terms of that. In terms of. Of feeling like people appreciated my work in complex roles, but also what I think is really important. And again, thank you. My therapist said that he thinks. And as soon as he said it, like, of course that's true. That what if I am. If I have anything to offer as an actor? What that is is because of all of these things that I struggle with. It's the stuff. It's my vulnerability, it's the fineness, it's the sensitivity. It's, you know, all of those. The things that I wish I didn't have so I could feel stronger to be an actor are potentially what helped me to be a. Hopefully a good actor.

[Elizabeth Day]

Is there a dream role that you have that you are aspiring to play one day?

[Alex Hassell]

I'd really like to play the Scottish King. I mean, I'm not, you know, superstitious, but it feels. I shouldn't say it.

[Elizabeth Day]

We shouldn't say the name on stage.

[Alex Hassell]

Yes. The Scottish King of Shakespeare.

[Elizabeth Day]

Okay. Rhymes with Megadeth.

[Alex Hassell]

Yeah, exactly.

[Elizabeth Day]

That was such a bad rhyme. Wait, tell me. You told me before we came on stage, because I love my facts and my trivia. You know the story behind why actors say break a leg before they go on stage.

[Alex Hassell]

That's right. So why you don't say good luck, you say break a leg, is that. It's got nothing to do with your legs. I believe in the old days, you would have these massive, heavy red curtains, and if the play had gone really, really well, you'd get to do loads of bows. And that would mean that they would bounce the curtain which you'd bow. They'd bounce the curtain. They'd bring it up, they'd bounce the curtain. And the piece of wood on the crank for the curtain was called a leg. So if the play went so well, you had to bow so many times, they'd bounce the curtain so much that it would break the leg.

[Elizabeth Day]

I mean, it's just a great fact.

[Alex Hassell]

Yeah, that's cool, isn't it? Well. So why you don't say the name of. Of the Scottish Scottish king is nothing to do with the witches and all of that? It's actually. It was in the olden days, the unspecified olden days, it was the most successful play in any rep anywhere. So if you had a play, you'd have a rep where you do a bunch of plays. If you put on a play and it was failing and was a massive turkey and no one wanted to come see it, you'd whip it off quickly and put that play on. So the reason that you don't say it is because you're damning your production to fail.

[Elizabeth Day]

Oh, my gosh. That is just the most perfect thing to draw this segment of tonight to a close. But I want to ask you, before I do that, what this has felt like for you.

[Alex Hassell]

It's been really, really, really great, really interesting. I'm very in sort of in touch, as you can probably tell, with my sense of failure and, like, attempting to, you know, like, move past it and all that kind of thing. So I. It's vulnerable to talk, you know, openly about these sorts of things in front of lots of people. But I also think, partly for me, I think that's part of the job of the actor. Not necessarily to talk about it, but to be someone who goes, I will get up in front of all of you and do the stuff that maybe other people can't show in front of loads of people or don't have. You know, that is usually confined to closed doors. I think that's part of it.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yeah. There is this quality of you that is very present, and I really appreciate it and I want to thank you so much for sharing it not only tonight, because I do really believe that vulnerability is the point of all connection. It is how we understand what makes us human, and it is what helps us reach out to someone else. And this has been such a beautiful example of that on stage tonight, but also in the way that you play your roles. But for now, please show your appreciation for the amazing Alex Hassell.

[Alex Hassell]

Thank you very much.

[Elizabeth Day]

Please do follow how to fail to.

Get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever.

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Please tell all your friends this is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.

[Alex Hassell]

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