Amy Jackson Westwick - I Was A Magnet For Narcissists

Summary

How to Fail with Elizabeth Day

Episode: Amy Jackson Westwick – "I Was a Magnet for Narcissists"

Release Date: April 1, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this heartfelt and revealing episode, Elizabeth Day welcomes British-Indian actress, model, and podcast host Amy Jackson Westwick. With over a decade of experience as a crossover star in Bollywood and a growing presence as a podcast host and advocate, Amy reflects on her most formative failures. The candid conversation explores her journey from a working-class childhood in Liverpool, through the pressures of early fame, to relationships, motherhood, and the essential inner work of finding oneself. The episode is structured around Amy’s three chosen “failures,” yielding deep insights into boundaries, people-pleasing, romanticization, and self-trust—all delivered with warmth, humor, and compassion.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Chasing Security, Not Fame

• Elizabeth spotlights Amy’s remark:
  "You're not chasing fame, you're chasing security." (03:53)
• Amy feels secure for the first time at age 34, crediting her peace of mind to years of personal growth and lessons learned from past failures.

  "If you don't have peace of mind, that security goes out the window. So I finally feel peaceful—not all the time, I've got two boys!—but that security comes hand in hand with a bit of peace." (05:37)

2. Failure One: Growing Up Too Fast

• Amy describes her early home life—her parents’ separation, her close relationship with her mum and grandmother, and the longing for more.
• She reveals her yearning for independence, which led her into modeling and, eventually, beauty pageants—driven, unexpectedly, by pettiness after her first boyfriend dated a Miss Liverpool.

  "I was a petty cow… It was pure pettiness. I thought, 'Right, what is this?'... and I found something... Miss Teen World." (14:26)

• The whirlwind that followed—winning Miss Teen World, getting scouted for Bollywood—launched her into adulthood at warp speed.
• The cultural shock and the pressure of performing in India as a teenager led to masking anxiety and losing track of herself:

  "For many years, even offscreen, there was a bit of performance going on... You lose yourself along the way because you actually don't know who you are." (06:56)

• Chilling lesson: The absence of boundaries and constant guidance from others (agents, directors) led to disconnect from herself.
• Memorable moment: Acting alongside Bollywood legend Rajinikanth—he gives Amy sage advice about mindfulness and not losing herself in the industry’s rush.

  "He really made me take a step back, breathe… enjoying it. And I think that was something I wasn't doing at the time." (26:28)

3. Failure Two: Romanticizing the "Perfect" Family Dynamic

• Amy traces her desire for a traditional, nuclear family to her parents’ divorce and the "lack"—not of love, but of unity.
• She owned the "hopeless romantic" label, clinging to the fantasy of domestic perfection and pouring herself into relationships, to her detriment:

  "I think I put so much emphasis on a relationship and I think that blindsided me a lot when it came to the idea of love and what love actually is." (29:28)

• Discussion on people-pleasing: Amy shares her therapist's insight that relentless people-pleasing can be a form of manipulation—an attempt to manage others’ responses and keep the peace.

  "She actually told me it's actually a form of manipulation... If I know that, then I'm just going to do and say as I please and see how that works." (30:40)

• Magnetic Attraction to Narcissists: Amy reflects on why she was repeatedly drawn to controlling, narcissistic partners—a mix of lacking self-worth and boundaries.

  "If I could just get hold of her, I’d say, 'Come on, you’ve got this. Where are your boundaries?' I didn’t know what that word actually meant... the red flags were on fire. What were you doing?" (32:28-33:04)

• The breakthrough came through motherhood—leaving a long-term relationship, not for herself, but for her son's wellbeing.

  "I wasn’t able to leave for myself. It was my son and having him at the forefront of my mind. But it was because I wanted to be a whole person, a whole mum for him." (35:24-36:09)

• Memo: The family she’s built now, though blended, is the healthiest it’s ever been for everyone involved—a real antidote to the "perfect" myth.

4. Failure Three: Not Listening to Yourself (Mind, Body, Soul!!!)

• Amy realizes in adulthood that she spent years disconnected from her body, emotions, and inner voice—largely due to people-pleasing and external pressure.
• She discusses the importance of tuning in to intuition, emphasizing the value of trusting one’s gut:

  "If it doesn't feel right, then it’s not right. And then you can communicate that… If only I used my voice more when I felt something niggling inside me." (54:32)

• Both Amy and Elizabeth note that societal conditioning teaches women not to trust themselves or even understand their own bodies (from menstrual cycle to menopause).
• Amy’s advice to her younger self and other people-pleasers: Pause, check in, and don’t be afraid to use your voice.

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Other Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Amy on performance vs. reality:

  "There was a bit of a mask, best foot forward… but the anxiety within my body that I wasn’t allowing out—it was a lot." (21:09)

• On the industry whirlwind:

  "There would easily be about 300–400 people on set. I must admit—if I’m honest with myself—the anxiety within my body... On the inside, it was a lot." (21:04-21:09)

• Amy on blended families and step-parenting:

  "My son is, I'm not gonna lie, my main priority… Ed wasn’t scared by that." (45:39)
  "With blended family... my little boy, he is very strong. You know, they say kids are resilient. He has resilience through and through him." (39:37)

• Humor and humility in setbacks:

  "I am not good with a basin and sink. That was an absolute disaster. I lasted all of a day there, Elizabeth." (12:32)

• Elizabeth’s affirmation:

  "The Amy that I have been lucky enough to meet is so likable, so loveable. We adore you all the more for your honesty and your realness and what you perceive as your imperfections." (55:56)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Intro & Amy’s Career Recap: 02:39–04:32
• Chasing Security Over Fame: 05:09–05:52
• Failure 1: Growing Up Too Fast (childhood, pageants, Bollywood): 08:15–23:24
• Rajinikanth & Bollywood Surprises: 24:37–26:53
• Failure 2: Romanticizing the Perfect Family (relationships, people-pleasing, narcissists): 27:01–40:26
• Blended Family & Step-Parenting: 44:35–49:56
• Failure 3: Not Listening to Yourself (trusting intuition, self-knowledge): 51:45–55:56
• Closing Affirmation & Goodbye: 55:56–56:18

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Tone & Language

Throughout the episode, both Amy and Elizabeth maintain a warm, candid, and slightly self-deprecating tone. Humor and humility thread through the toughest confessions, and both hosts share vulnerability in the service of connection and growth.

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For Listeners Who Haven't Tuned In

This episode is a rich resource for anyone grappling with boundaries, people-pleasing, self-discovery, or family dynamics—especially those with non-traditional or blended families. Amy's journey offers reassurance that failures, far from being endpoints, are waymarkers to deeper clarity, healthier relationships, and a truer sense of self. Her reflections (often shared in a Scouse lilt usually hidden from the screen) are both relatable and inspiring, offering actionable wisdom, reassurance, and a few well-earned laughs.

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“If it doesn't feel right, then it’s not right. Use your voice. Don’t be afraid to.”
—Amy Jackson Westwick (54:32)

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For more, follow "How to Fail with Elizabeth Day" wherever you get your podcasts!

Transcript

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

And I think I put so much emphasis on a relationship and I think that blindsided me a lot because I do empathize with my younger self. But if I could just get hold of her and say, come on, you've got this. Where are your boundaries? I didn't know what that word actually meant. When I look back now, I go, oh, Amy, the red flags were

on fire. What are you doing?

[Elizabeth Day]

Hello and welcome to how to Fail with me, Elizabeth Day. This is the podcast where we firmly believe that all failure is data acquisition. Before we get into today's conversation, please do remember to like, follow and subscribe. It really, really helps us and it helps other people find us. And that will also make sure that you never miss a single episode. Hello, this is Elizabeth Day from the

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[Elizabeth Day]

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[Elizabeth Day]

Amy Jackson Westwick is 34, but seems already to have lived several lifetimes. Born in the Isle of Man, raised in Liverpool, she started modeling age 14 and ended up winning Miss Teen World in 2009, the Bollywood director ALVJ spotted her and asked her to audition for the lead role in his new period drama. Despite having had no previous acting experience, Jackson Westwick got the role. She celebrated her 17th birthday on set in India and moved there full time aged 19. Over 14 years, she made a major name for herself in Bollywood, winning critical acclaim and awards and racking up over 20 credits. Having also starred in the CW Supergirl in 2017, she is recognised as one of the UK's most successful crossover actresses from Western to Indian cinema. Alongside her film work, Jackson Westwick is a patron for charities such as the Sneha Saga, orphanage for girls, PETA and elephant family. She was honoured with the UN's International Day of the Girl Child Award in 2018. And she's just launched a podcast, what's the Tea, Amy? Full of frank, honest conversations and interviews, including one with her husband, the actor Ed Westwick, with whom she shares a one year old baby Oscar and her son Andreas, from a previous relationship. With some 14 million followers across social media, Jackson Westwick is an example of global fame. And yet, as she said recently, her motivation was never celebrity for its own sake. As she put it, you're not chasing fame, you're chasing security. Amy, welcome to how to Fail.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

Thank you so much, Elizabeth. That was lovely. I need that pep talk in the mornings. Can I voice note you saying this

[Elizabeth Day]

to me 100%, I'll voice note it to you. You can have it as a ringtone.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

Thank you very much. I like that.

[Elizabeth Day]

It's always so interesting when guests have that reaction and it's often women who have that reaction because all I'm doing is stating a series of facts and that's your life. And it's an incredible one, Amy. It really, really is.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

Thank you.

[Elizabeth Day]

I wanted to ask, we get into that about that quote, chasing security rather than fame. How do you feel now? Do you feel secure?

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

For the first time in my life, I do. I actually feel very secure. I think it's been a long time coming and, you know, we'll get into

the failures, but I think those failures,

at that time, you almost think that you've ruined your life.

And it's only with time and, you

know, time is a, is a blessing that you realize, oh, gosh, this is how it was supposed to be. But I think security comes in. It comes in so many different forms and for me it's peace of mind. Elizabeth, if you don't have peace of mind, that security, I mean, it goes out of the window. So I finally Feel peaceful. Not all the time.

I've got two boys. But that security comes hand in hand

with a bit of peace.

[Elizabeth Day]

Do you find that with your podcast you're able to just be yourself?

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

So true. And it's so funny because when I started it, people didn't even know I had this accent.

Because obviously you're playing different roles and

you're playing different characters and you're performing to a certain beauty standard for that kind of world and the film industry in particular. So having a cup of tea and a chat, I mean it's as we

mentioned, just off camera, it's Scouse blood. We do that very well.

[Elizabeth Day]

Right.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

And it's quite liberating and it's nice to actually be myself for once.

[Elizabeth Day]

And I wonder as well if it's hard in some way when you have had such a kind of high profile existence from a teenager on the stages of Bollywood. Was it ever difficult to remain yourself?

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

It's a very good question. And I actually think back to when I started and I didn't know what I was doing. Elizabeth. I was 16 and I went over to India. I was kind of catapulted into it and truthfully I did not know what to do. So I did put on this facade and it would be this kind of overly confident, but on the inside I was like, oh my God, am I doing this right? Am I saying this right? Am I, you know, showing up the way I'm supposed to show up? It was all new to me. So I think for many years, even off screen there was a bit of performance going on. There really was. And really just winging it and hoping for the best. And actually I kind of. We'll get into it. But I, I, you lose yourself along the way because you actually don't know who you are, what you want, where you're supposed to go in life. You're kind of getting redirected by different people and you should do this, this is a really good look and, or take this role because this will do well if you perform next to this person. So there were a lot of outside, there's outside noise and that gets loud and then everything else gets quiet within you. And finally, as a 34 year old woman, I finally feel like I'm at that place in, in time and in life where I feel like actually I'm really happy being me. I'm really happy, you know, embracing who I am and actually not trying to hide it.

[Elizabeth Day]

Love that. Okay, let's get into it.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

Go on.

[Elizabeth Day]

I said before we started these Failures are so, they're so excellent. And the first one is, is growing up too fast. So I'd love you to take me back to your childhood. What was it like, your family growing up in Liverpool when you were, let's say eight or nine?

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

So I was born in the Alaman, like you mentioned, moved over to Liverpool at the age of two. We moved to Norris Green, which is North Liverpool, and lived with my grandma. Parents separated very early and truthfully, the memories I have of mum and dad too, together, very dysfunctional, lots of arguments. But individually as parents, to me they were bloody fantastic, which was very good. They were able to come together and, you know, be a partnership in that way. But I was just a regular Liverpool girl. I loved my horses, I loved my dogs.

My mom worked for the Riding for Disabled association.

So every weekend I would be there and I think that was a really good introduction to kind of growing up and independence and looking after something that wasn't just yourself. Incredible mom. But also she had problems with different situation. Very, very close to my grandma and unfortunately when she passed that kind of had a knock on effect on the whole family.

[Elizabeth Day]

I'm so sorry.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

Yeah. So we had to kind of navigate that and obviously, she won't mind me saying, but obviously going through a certain time in her life, teenage years, going through a certain time in my life, we would clash and there would be hormones running, riots. So it was chaotic, it really was. But she always remained my best friend, she always remained my anchor. But there was a certain point in time where I was like, okay, I need a break from this, I need to escape. And I think that's what made me want to rush my childhood and rush into independence and freedom and you know, as a child you think adulthood is bigger and better than everything and you can't wait to get there. It's independent, it's freedom, it's earning your own money. You know, we came from a very working class background, but I think I really wanted to earn my own money. I wanted to go into the world and, and do more. So I think I wanted to rush that. Little did I know though that, you know, adulthood is mainly responsibilities and a

lot of admin, you know, other than

[Elizabeth Day]

being a globally renowned Bollywood star and a legendary beauty, I feel like you and I have so much in common because.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

Go on, hit me with it. I love it. You are in a world of your own.

[Elizabeth Day]

I love it. It's so sweet of you, but I grew up in the countryside loving animals. Tomboyish.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Day]

And I felt like From a young age, I had a sort of sense of self which then growing older, gradually eroded. And I feel like I'm only just getting back to that person now. And similarly to you. I was so desperate to earn my own living and be independent. And my first paid job was age 12. And I remember feeling so thrilled at the money that I earned. And you're so right. Being grown up held this great allure for me. I was like, I just. Just need to be independent. So was it you who was driving, going into modeling?

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

So it was funny. I mean, my first job, I had

a Saturday job, I think.

I was not 12.

That's impressive. What was it? What did you do, by the way?

[Elizabeth Day]

Come on.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

I need to know.

[Elizabeth Day]

A loser. I got a job as a fortnightly children's columnist on a local newspaper.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

Destined. Destined for it, yes.

[Elizabeth Day]

Wait, so what was your first job?

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

My first job was working at Herbert's,

and Herbert was a hairstylist in Liverpool.

Like a celeb hairstylist. He was fabulous. He was a dandy. He was great. And it was just the glamour of Liverpool.

All the most, you know, influential women

would go in there and get their hair done. And I kind of wanted to be a part of it. Little did I know it was extremely hard work and I am not good with a basin and sink.

That was an absolute disaster. I lasted all of a day there. Elizabeth.

At the end of the day, I was rolling the towels up and she was like, you've been here all day

and you still don't know how to roll the towels? I was like, I didn't know I had that much in depth thinking behind it. But anyway, I got a paycheck of

£20, and I was so happy and elated with it, and I'm going to go spend it.

So I wandered around the Liverpool city center and treated myself to a nice cup of tea on my own at 14.

And I treated myself, I think, to something from Accessorise. And I thought, this is what it's supposed to be like.

[Elizabeth Day]

This is the life.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

This is the life.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Day]

Okay, so then how do you segue into winning Miss Teen World? How does that happen at that time?

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

I mean, how many years are we going back? Maybe I'd say 16. 16 years now. And pageants specifically were a really big thing in order to kind of get. Give you a platform to something else, whether that be modeling or acting or using that as a platform. And I think they have a little bit of a bad rep, and rightly so, in some kind of circumstances. But if you use the title, if you use the competition in a way to kind of a stepping stone, I suppose, into something bigger than what that actually is. It's not just the title, it's. It's. Yeah, it's a push in the right direction and I wanted that freedom and I wanted to travel. I've got a gypsy heart on me. I wanted to see the world and you know, my parents didn't have the means to be able to do that. When I was younger.

I don't think I've actually told anybody this.

I was, my first boyfriend, we ended up separating, was only like, you know, you know, young love, one of those. And he went on to date a Miss Liverpool and I was like, oh, what is this?

Well, maybe I need to do some investigation. I've never told anyone this actually.

So it was from a fuel or.

[Elizabeth Day]

It was pettiness.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

It was pettiness. I'm a petty cow. Me too. It was pure pettiness. And I thought, right, what is this?

And I found it, I thought, well, I'm too young for Miss Liverpool.

Is there anything else I could enter into?

And I found something and it was Miss Teen World and it had different segments. It was charity. That was great. Writing for Disabled Association. I do that on the regular. Anyway, with my mom interview, we were

talking about how Liverpoolians love a good chat.

I was like, fine, I can handle that.

And then obviously it was the stage performance and it was performing on stage

and we're in glamorous outfit and a pair of heels and it was all a package. Thought I'd really like to do that. It's in America. This is, you know, destiny, you know, it was, it was America and obviously that's where dreams come true, especially when you're younger.

That's what you imagine America to be like.

And as I say, you know, she comes from working class background, worked her whole life, minimum wage and nothing was too much trouble. And she saw this kind of fire in my belly and she said, let's do it.

So we scoured the charity shops for evening gown.

We signed up, we did the kind of preliminary applications and all of a sudden we were on a flight to

Texas, via Paris, via somewhere else. It was one of those really cheap flights, but we got there in the end.

[Elizabeth Day]

What an incredible story. And then you win and you're spotted by this Bollywood director. Now how on earth do you manage to get that part? What happens in the audition process and are you in this mindset of, well, I might as well say yes, this door has opened. Let's see what's on the other side of it.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

Back then I was ready for anything. So I got scouted to be a model and I signed with them maybe three months prior to when this audition came through. And alvj, like you mentioned in the intro, he was casting for a full British family to act in a film called Madrasa Pattanam. It was a 1940s period drama and he'd seen a picture of me in

the Daily Mail, of all places.

And I was on this swing with my Miss Teen World and I box dyed my hair red. And he said, I need to find this girl. This is what I've been told. We need to find her. I'd like her to come in for an audition. And I turned up on the day after a phone call from my modeling agency. You've got an audition. Do you want to go for it? I said, well, I've never acted before. Does he know that? Yes. Okay, do I need to prepare anything? Well, here are your scenes. Okay, well what do I do with this? Just read them through. So there's me and my mum and my dad, you know, practicing them. He drove me down to London. I'd never experienced London before. We drove down in his little rackety

car, think 5 o' clock in the

morning, got there for 10am and I walk into big hotel banquet hall on, on the Thames, and it is full to the brim of actors. And I think, oh my God, I'm really out of my comfort zone. I don't know what I'm doing. So we wait in line and eventually a couple of hours passed and I was taken in and it actually went

better than what I thought it would. You know, what I thought it would, would go like, except for the fact

that he asked me with the language barrier, I'd like you to mime this scene out. Mime. So I said, okay. So I thought, okay, you can't use words. You just kind of use your, you know, your actions and your emotions. And about two minutes in he said, that's great, but you know, you can use your voice, use your words. And I was like, multiplied.

I thought he wanted me.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

So we did it again. And it. And I think it was the fact

that I didn't put too much emphasis on it. I didn't know what to expect.

So I went in very openly and quite confidently in the way that, all

right, I'm gonna do it my way. And it worked.

[Elizabeth Day]

Your perseverance to get to that stage is pretty remarkable. But let's tie it back to this failure, this idea of growing up too fast. So you then go to India and you're on a film set. What's that like?

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

It blew my socks off. I think, you know, when you're exposed

to something that's so culturally rich and different from what you know and what you've grown up with. I mean, it broadened my mind. But instantly we got off the plane and it was actually before we even landed.

My mum said to me on the flight over.

Cause I took my mum, they really

believed in, which is great.

They have a really strong connection, especially the director himself. And family said, you must come with your mom. She can come be with you and you can do this together, you know? He realized I was only a teenager, but we were on the flight over and she said, bloody hell am I hope you can act.

And I said, I never thought about that. I said, I've never actually given it a thought. I was just like, this is an opportunity. I can't wait to tell the grandkids. We were just landed in India and we had the whole directorial team waiting for us. Vijay, his assistant directors, and. I don't know whether you've been to India, Elizabeth.

[Elizabeth Day]

I have. I've been to Kerala. Ngoa.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

So beautiful. But it's busy, right? Yes, it's really busy. And it's a bit of a shock to the system. We saw a cow crossing the road.

There was a snake on the side

on, like, a snake charmer. And I was like, this is like a movie. This really was something that I've never experienced before, because, I mean, beforehand, and we touched on childhood, and I'd never really been exposed to anything other than my immediate environment. It felt like I was supposed to be here. And not to say it wasn't difficult. I remember the first day on set and just the sheer colossal size of the sets and the amount of people

probably not all necessarily needed. I mean, in comparison, I knew no

difference at that point. But there would easily be about 300, 400 people on set.

[Elizabeth Day]

That's overwhelming.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

It was a lot.

[Elizabeth Day]

How did you cope with it?

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

I think I just got on with it. And I learned to put a bit of a mask on. So I didn't want to let anybody know that I was feeling extremely nervous or out of my depth. I didn't want anybody to think, oh, no, we've cast the wrong girl here. So I did put best foot forward. Bit of a mask. But I must admit, I think if I am very honest with myself, the Anxiety within my body that I wasn't actually allowing out. I wasn't allowing it to become my reality. But on the inside, it was a lot. A lot of sleepless nights, stressful, obviously, a new language, a new culture, away from people that I've known my entire life. Granted, I had mom, but then in the back of my mind, people really would love to be in that position. And in my mind, I had to keep reminding myself of that. But it didn't really help how I was actually feeling. Yes, it felt like it was an overload at the time.

[Elizabeth Day]

I think that's so well expressed. Why did you choose growing up too fast as a failure? I'm interested in how you think it

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

manifested entering into the film industry. You have to put on a performance and a role and you have to be something that you're not necessarily, you know, accustomed to. And I think a lot of it, as I mentioned, it was a bit of a facade for a long time and then you kind of lose sense of who you are. And for a long time, that had a knock on effect. And it's only just in the recent years that I've actually gone back and did the work to actually find out, okay, who am I? This is. It's gonna sound like a really first world problem, but when people are doing stuff for you all the time, you have somebody organizing your schedule. What do you want for lunch? Okay, you're wearing this today. You kind of lose sense of the outside world and what you're actually supposed to be doing for yourself. So I had to rediscover that side of life, and that took a while.

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[Elizabeth Day]

For details I'm interested in what was the craziest thing that happened to you as a Bollywood star? What was the most pinch me surreal moment where you goodness good or bad?

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

Either.

[Elizabeth Day]

Let's go good. Let's go good. Let's do bad later.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

Okay.

There is a legend. He is iconic. People have temples for him. His name is Rajini Khan and I got to act alongside him. He's been in the industry for over 55 years. And we had our promotional tour and I remember we were there with the director and we had it big and larger than life. It was in Dubai and I thought, how on earth have I gotten here? You know, going from Liverpool and a very quaint life into being catapulted into this kind of world. And I really did have to pinch myself. We took a helicopter over the Palm and landed on that.

I mean, I'd never seen any of this before.

I'd never traveled. I'd never seen sights like this. And we landed on the Burj Khalifa. But in the midst of it, Rajinikantha, he sat me down and he gave me a real heart to heart about life. And I don't think anybody has ever done that within the industry. I mean, he's so knowledgeable and, you know, so worldly.

[Elizabeth Day]

Can you remember any pieces of advice that he gave you?

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

At the time, I was back to back films and it was from one country to another, which sounds great, but actually on the other side, you kind of, you know, you lose yourself. You're in the midst of work, which is fantastic. It was something that I never dreamt of doing. But you're onto the next and you're onto the next and what else? And what should we do next year? So he really made me take a step back, breathe.

He was very much into yoga and his breathing exercises. We actually did one of those in the helicopter itself.

And it actually made me realize, you know, you've got to enjoy it. Humble approach. And I think that was very poetically

put by him because you get distracted

by the glitz and the glamour, but actually enjoying it. And I think that was something that I wasn't doing at the time.

[Elizabeth Day]

Did you get into yoga? I did. Are you still into yoga.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

I'm not very bendy, I've got to be honest, but I'm a lot better than I was before.

[Elizabeth Day]

Okay, let's move on to your second failure. This is the first time we've ever had this one. Really? Yes. And it's such a good one, it's such a powerful one because again, so many people will relate to it. It's romanticizing the perfect family dynamic. And my heart slightly broke for the younger. You reading that?

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Day]

Tell me where this romantic idea of what the perfect family dynamic first started. Was it as a result of your parents getting divorced? You wanted to kind of create something for yourself that wasn't that?

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

I think that definitely come into play. I think the phrase hopeless romantic, emphasizing

on the hopeless is definitely something I can lend my name to and associate with.

And I think a lot of it come from a place of lack, not from a lack of love. As I mentioned, a great relationship with my mom's best friend. Dad was very present. Love my sister. I was with her yesterday. But there's a nine year age gap as well. So the family unit was not necessarily there. But I always yearned for that family unit and I think I put so much emphasis on that even as a child. I mean, career wise, I didn't really have a plan and you know, I take every opportunity as it came, came my way. But with my personal life, I think I was 11 or 12 and I was like, I knew what I want and I can, you know, envision this beautiful family home with a loving partner and, you know, kids and all this, you know, happiness and fun and love. Love. I've got a lot of love and I was desperate to put that into something. So I romanticized that idea again for many, many years. And I think, you know, when you're a teenager and you go through that in your early 20s and that's the time now, in hindsight, you should enjoy single life and you should enjoy the world and seeing it. And I think I put so much emphasis on a relationship and I think that blindsided me a lot when it came to

the idea of love and

what love actually is.

[Elizabeth Day]

I completely understand what you're saying.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

Do you?

[Elizabeth Day]

Good. I 100%. To give you context, from the age of 19 to 35, I was in a series of back to back long term monogamous relationships because it felt too scary to be on my own and because I was absolutely trying to create that dynamic and I lost sight of my own desires in my rush to build that. And from what you're saying you'd already made a living in so many ways by performing perfection for others that you had to. That was your job. And I imagine the knock on effect for you as it was for me was people pleasing.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

Very much so. Debilitating, people pleaser through and through. And my body was in turmoil with it. I was speaking to my therapist about people pleasing and I'm so aware of what I was doing and why I was doing it. But she actually told me it's actually a form of manipulation.

And I was like, okay.

I was like, well, I'm gonna stop that then.

Because actually I'm doing it to make their life easier.

If know that, then I'm just gonna

do and say as I please and

yeah, see how that works. But I didn't actually realize I was doing it at the time. I just wanted to keep the peace. I think it stems back from childhood and wanting it to be easy and peaceful as possible. Mom and dad, you know, they had their, their arguments and their ups and downs and I didn't want to have an effect in any way to kind of, you know, emphasize that or add any of the problems. So I was conditioned by myself to become a people pleaser. And that fed into my relationships massively growing up.

[Elizabeth Day]

So I don't know if you, if this speaks to you, but I felt that in my romantic relationships until I got divorced at the age of 35, I was just outsourcing my sense of self to whatever I thought my romantic partner wanted of me.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

Exactly.

[Elizabeth Day]

And of course it wasn't necessarily what they wanted of me, but it's what I thought they would want. So I was trying to sort of shape shift and it meant that I never showed up as myself. I now realize that now. It wasn't that I was lying, it was just that I think I was scared that I wouldn't be loved or enough or enough as I truly was. And you have said that you were a magnet for narcissists. Again, hard relate.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

Good. Okay.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yeah. Why do you.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

Well, not good. I'm sorry. I'm extremely sorry.

[Elizabeth Day]

We're through it now. Yes. Why do you think that was in your case?

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

Again, not knowing my self worth, my lack of boundaries. And I, I, as we touched on.

And I'm glad you said it because

I do empathize with my younger self. But if I could just get hold of her and say, come on, you've got this. Where are your boundaries? I didn't know what that word actually meant. I really genuinely didn't. I thought it was just a word

that, you know, the la cloud through

about where are your boundaries? But coming back to your question about magnet for narcissists, I was. I was drawn to them and they were drawn to me. When I look back now, I go, oh, Amy, the red flags were

on fire. What were you doing?

I was romanticizing again. And I think, very charming. They talk a good talk. They swoop you in. And initially, obviously, they're a very controlling individual. But that control for me, I confused as almost love. And, well, he loves me. That's why he's saying this. That's why he doesn't want me to do it in this way or say that or. Or, you know, be a different person in that way and shape and form. But I think I confused that controlling behavior for somebody who was loving and caring. And in actual fact, it was the complete opposite.

[Elizabeth Day]

So well put. The most dysfunctional relationship I ever had. When it ended. I remember him saying, you'll never find anyone who lost me like you.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

Yeah, I was going to mention this. I can relate massively, Elizabeth and I think. How long did it take for you

to leave that relationship?

[Elizabeth Day]

Seven years.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

Yeah.

Are we mirroring each other?

I know.

[Elizabeth Day]

This is so weird. It is so weird hearing your experiences now looking back, I understand that is the definition of someone who is a narcissist, who love bombed who. But exactly like you, the control felt like safety. And it wasn't. It was absolutely the opposite. It was actually dangerous.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Day]

And now that I'm with the partner I'm with now, thank goodness, I understand true safety and true love being that measure of acceptance.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

Most definitely. I always remember when I first started to date my husband and I had a year of just figuring it out and doing me, and I actually went into single life thinking, oh, my God,

off the back of a conversation like

that, you'll never find another mate.

Oh, so I want another you.

[Elizabeth Day]

Thank you for eliminating yourself for my inquiries.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

I actually, I don't think I want another man as long as I live. I was really in that headspace, and that's with a range of different relationships that I've had.

But similar to yourself, I think I was very codependent and I went from a back to back monogamous relationships throughout my 20s. And unfortunately, it wasn't until I had my eldest, and I thought, okay, we come to a point and it's now or never. Like, this is going to be life, and this is not a rag on the past relationship. I really do believe, you know, I was a Grown adult. I had a responsibility to probably leave sooner or handle things in a different way. But I didn't have the coping mechanisms back then that I do now. And, you know, looking back at that relationship, the timing was right. I left at the time I was supposed to leave. And we are both great parents. And I wouldn't want to say anything that would be damaging because obviously he's a great dad. Their relationship is actually fantastic. And it's very different to our relationship, hence why we separated. But I think romanticizing that family dynamic, and I think that's why both of us, you know, stayed in a relationship for such a long time, because we wanted that family unit. But obviously, once our son arrived, I realized I didn't want that environment for him. And I also wanted to be a whole person. And unfortunately, I don't know whether it's embarrassingly, but it is. I feel a little bit of shame around it. I wasn't able to leave for myself. It was my son and having him at the forefront of my mind. But it was because of that and because I wanted to be a whole person, a whole woman, and a whole mum for him. You know, we went our separate ways, and it was tricky. It took a long, long time to feel like myself and get on the right path, as you say, and trust again. I remember when I first started dating Ed, and he was so nice. He was so nice. I thought it was like an act. I didn't believe that somebody could actually be nice to me and compliment me. And I was waiting for, ha, ha, you know, And I didn't. I didn't fully understand it. I'd never really experienced a relationship throughout my entire life. That. That was kind. It took a lot of getting used to, the communication.

I mean, being able to talk about feelings.

I've never had that in a relationship. And it was so difficult to actually, you know, kind of articulate how I was feeling at the start. So when somebody holds space for you in that way, wow, it opens up a whole other level of love.

[Elizabeth Day]

I'm so moved hearing you talk in that way. And there are two things I want to say. One is I want to remove that shame or embarrassment that you feel for, as you put it, not being strong enough to leave on your own terms. I actually think there's something so powerful about you as a mother that when your son was born, that gave you the strength to do it. That speaks so highly of you, I think. And actually that family unit, the quote, unquote, perfect family unit, which is a myth, but you've got as close as you can to it by allowing yourself to be whole, allowing your son to have these two terrific parents who aren't trying to make something work that was never destined to work. And that is the perfect family unit in so many ways.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

It definitely is now. And you just have a different vision when you're younger and a template, a perfect family template that just didn't work in this respect. But now, yes.

And it's taken many years and we've

actually got to a point where this blended family, we are the healthiest we've ever been, his dad and I. And he has a stepdad, he has a stepmom on the other side. And we are this blended family and we're a concoction of making it work. And you know, my little boy, he is very strong. You know, they say kids are resilient. He has resilience through and through him and I think that was when we both decided he is our main priority. And when all the noise and all the background and he sheds, she said. And the emotional side of things got put to one side, that's when we were able to to move forward with things. But it takes time.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes, how old is Andreas now?

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

He's six.

[Elizabeth Day]

Okay,

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[Elizabeth Day]

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[Amy Jackson Westwick]

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[Elizabeth Day]

Also, the other thing that I related to was you saying it took you a while to get used to Ed being nice to you. And Justin, my husband, it was so unfamiliar, the way that he showed up in our dating and then our relationship, that I thought there was something odd about it. I thought it was oddly.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

Me, too. Yes.

[Elizabeth Day]

Like, it's so consistent. Why is he getting in touch when he said he's.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

Exactly.

He said he was going to message and he messaged.

[Elizabeth Day]

How are our. I thought I was meant to be feeling anxious. It's so, so true. It's so unhinged what we do to ourselves.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

It's crazy. And I didn't know at the time,

but I was just conditioned to, as you say, a romantic kind of love. You know, you're living on the edge, and that's how it's sexy and romantic. But I was in turmoil.

I mean, I was not happy in any of my relationships beforehand, and.

And it's so toxic. And I played a part in that toxicity.

I really did. So, as you say, when you say it's unromantic when you actually get a message, when you're supposed to get a

message and they plan the next date, I was like, oh, well, this is new. Okay. And initially I took a little step back because I thought, oh, this is the real deal. This is like a genuine relationship. And it took me a few months to think, oh, he's actually being genuine and actually does want to take me out and compliment and do nice things and have meaningful conversations. And I was like, oh, this is actually really refreshing.

I could get used to this, but

it took some time. He is the world's best communicator. He is a cancerian.

He is very in touch with his emotions, let's say.

And he has brought that side out in me, which I didn't know was there. I mentioned I didn't know how I was feeling. I didn't know how to articulate that side of things. But when you get somebody who pries

it out of you, you know, in a very. In a very gentle way, it's liberating.

[Elizabeth Day]

Can we talk about step parenting Because I'm a step parent. Yes. Of three.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

Oh, wow. I need your notes on it.

[Elizabeth Day]

Oh, my God. And it's such. It's so complicated and it's so great simultaneously. And so many people don't feel equipped to have honest conversations about it because obviously it invol other people, other relationships and other families. But I wonder if you could share with us what the experiences have been like of blending your families.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

You know, initially, that was my main priority when I was dating and I met men. And I thought I would never, you know, want to or feel that I could introduce you as a stepparent. And that was a main priority for me. Andreas at the forefront, because, you know, there's two of you, it's not just you anymore. You come as a duo. And I think when I met Ed, I did bring that up on maybe the first or second date.

I threw it right in there.

I did not mess about. And I said, obviously, you know, my son is, I'm not gonna lie, my main priority, his happiness and, you know, making sure he is okay. And he then told us the story about his par and how his eldest brother has a different dad. But they were formed and, you know, Ed's dad came along and that is his eldest brother's stepdad. And they are a beautifully blended family. And I think his mom. His mom had a beautiful, beautiful relationship with her, and she was a child psychologist. She was very kind. She was very gentle. I think he was introduced to that at an early age, and he wasn't scared by it. I think it can be quite intimidating for men, specifically to maybe get involved with a woman who has a child and they're unaware of, you know, the ins and outs of it. That didn't scare him. So that gave me a lot of hope. It was six months down the line of our relationship, and we were at a point in time where we wanted to take it to the next step. And I thought, okay, how will I, number one, introduce him to Andreas, and number two, you know, talk to his dad about it and have an open, frank conversation and make sure everybody's on the same page. And it was a very calm conversation, and it went a lot better than I expected. Obviously, it's very difficult, obviously, introducing somebody else into your child's life. And he has a dad. He has a great dad. And I wanted to make sure that didn't get overshadowed or, you know, I was trying to fill that void or that space because that was very much filled. So I wanted to make a point of that, but also he was a huge part of our life and we want to take it to the next step. I remember Ed's first experience of meeting Andreas, and I think he was two and a half, three years old, which is actually a really. It's a good age because they kind of understand and they're open to the idea. But he turned up in these dinosaur

dungarees, head to toe with a dinosaur cassette cap.

[Elizabeth Day]

Ed, by the way, and not Andreas.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

I know Andreas is very chic when he picks his outfits out, and I just thought, wow. And it made me love him even. Even more. He wanted to make him feel seen. And he was very much into dinosaurs at the time and he was not afraid of getting stuck in there and,

you know, having fun and not taking selves too seriously. But you mentioned there, obviously being a step mom yourself, it does come with difficulties and some beautiful moments, but. But difficulties at the same time. And I think that's what he is realizing now because, as, you know, different stages of life for children and you come through different difficulties and different aspects of life for them. And Obviously, Andreas is six, so. Six going on 16.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes. And you've just had Oscar. Oscar. And I imagine that's a whole different dynamic.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

Different dynamic. He is actually. I didn't know how that was going to go, and it was a big age gap there, you know, it was five and a half years. It's actually served us well because he sees him as the baby, he sees him as the big brother, and he stepped into that role. And I think it's a really beautiful relationship that they've formed. I was very. I was very conscious and. And you'll understand that with the blended family situation, obviously Andreas has to go and spend time at Dad's house, which he loves. But that means Oscar's here at home with us. And I didn't want to ever make him feel that we're sending him off and Oscar stays there. I don't know how to kind of articulate that, but I didn't want the jealousy to creep in. So I do tend to overcompensate when he is around, which is great because Ed is able to take care of Oscar, which is very demanding. He's a one year old and he's here, there and everywhere. But we still very much have our mummy and Dre. Dre time. I've really made a conscious effort of that.

And Ed is navigating fatherhood and being

a stepdad, and it's difficult because obviously there are only certain ways you can Navigate certain situations when you are the step parent, and there are certain things

you can and can't say.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes. So interesting.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

Yes.

I'm like, you know, you can help me out. And he's like, I can't really help you out. This is a mom and dad thing. You know, you take control. I'm here, and I will talk it through with him. But. But, you know, it's. You have the final say.

[Elizabeth Day]

I want to say how grateful I am and how grateful every single step parent who's listening to this will be that you've just said that and you've been honest about both the joy of it and the wonder of it and the complexity. Because I think the more we have these conversations, the less isolated people feel, because it is one of those things that is so under explo. Under explored and so under talked about. And I completely understand what you're saying. So one of the things that Justin said to me on our second date, because we talked about children, and he said, well, the thing is, my kids don't need a parent because they have two great parents. And I found that very liberating. And it's certainly the case that I can be there as this kind of friendly adult. He's more like an aunt or a godparent. But there were years when Justin and I were trying to have a baby, and had that happened, I was very aware of the complexity, because one of the things that step parents struggle with is I like, am I allowed to tell my partner's child off? Am I allowed to set a boundary? And that's just a constant conversation. So I salute you both for being actively involved in that conversation and raising this wonderful family.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

We're trying.

[Elizabeth Day]

You are. You're succeeding. Okay. Your final one, which I feel like we've touched on throughout, is not listening to yourself. And then you put brackets. Mind, body, soul, exclamation mark.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

I think that's three exclamation marks, though. I didn't realize they would send them over in that format. It was my brain dumped to you.

[Elizabeth Day]

But I love that I can tell so much about someone so not listening to myself sooner.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

Yes. In so many different ways.

And, you know, the more I learn

about myself and about my body, I

just did not know much about my own body. I was never taught about it in school. I've only really just learned about my own menstrual cycle. And when those two days a month come and I'm like, oh, I know

what's happening, I swear, only within the last couple of years, I'm like, ah,

this happens every month. Okay, I know this now. Beforehand, I was ready to go away

and lock away the key. You know, I was like, throw me in there. But I think learning about your body

and about everything that impacts it, you know, the stress levels and the, the sleep and, and the skin and everything. And I did not know much about my own body. I was a grown woman. I didn't listen to myself. That people pleasing crept on in and it really throws you off that gut intuition, your gut instincts. I mean, as a woman, if we ignore that, you're completely off sync. The balance is just not there. And I've only just learned to home in on that. And if something doesn't feel right, right, it's usually not.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes. There are so many things going on there because as women just we've been culturally conditioned for centuries just to not trust ourselves and also not know ourselves as a condition of oppression in many ways and exactly the same. Menopause was never spoken about when I was a child.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

Taboo subject.

[Elizabeth Day]

Thank goodness for our queen Davina McCall and others like her who bring these conversations to the fore. Fertility. Again, nothing that I was ever taught about at school. Wish I'd known. And, and you're right that actually as we get older, that's the time that we start doing our independent research and we start kind of listening to ourselves so much more. So if you could give a piece of advice to your younger self, Amy, to the self that found herself on that film set in India celebrating her 17th birthday. And not even just to you, but to anyone who is listening to this and is feeling a bit trapped in people pleasing and doesn't really know what to do about it. What piece of advice would you give them?

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

I think going back to what we just said, if it doesn't feel right, then it's not right. And then you can communicate that. But you've got to actually know how you're feeling. I'm not afraid to voice it. I was afraid for so many years to actually voice how I was feeling and that it did me so many disadvantages in life. And I think if only I used my voice more when I felt something niggling inside me. I mean, it can go on and on and on and then eventually you blow up. It can be easily, easily saved in the short term if we just listen to ourselves and we're able to speak out and voice it.

[Elizabeth Day]

What were you afraid of?

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

Not being liked. Truthfully, not being liked and having a different opinion or I actually think this might be better. And, and you know, coming back to what you said, Elizabeth, you know, where are you going to go? Or I know you better than you know yourself, all of these things that you would listen to. And actually now I'm like, that's not true. Yes, I know who I am. I know what I want. But I think I was very impressionable as well as a young girl. And I think ignoring those gut instincts did not leave me in good stead and I just wish I had voiced it at an earlier age.

[Elizabeth Day]

Well, do you know what I want to say to you, Amy, is that the Amy that I have been lucky enough to meet is so likable, so lovable. We adore you all the more for your honesty and your realness and what you perceive of as your imperfections. It's been such a joy talking to you and thank you so much for coming on how to Fail.

[Amy Jackson Westwick]

Such a pleasure. Thank you so much, Elizabeth. That was wonderful. Quick break. One useful thing to share. I thought TikTok was just dances. Turns out it's where I learned how to save money, fix stuff, and get real tips. Short videos, real people download TikTok now.

[Elizabeth Day]

Please do follow how to Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends this is an elaborate Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.