← How To Fail With Elizabeth Day
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- [00:00]
Baz Luhrmann
I was embarrassed about being this geek from a small country town and I was ashamed. I love her and if she was gone tomorrow, I don't know what I'd do. The relationship works in a way in which it works for us. It's not traditional in so many ways, so I see my job as keeping fear out of the room. I take the fear on in the morning when I get up.
- [00:27]
Elizabeth Day
Welcome to how to Fail, the podcast that believes there is no growth or creativity without about failure first. Before we get into this conversation, please do remember to like, follow and subscribe so that you never miss a single episode. Hello, this is Elizabeth Day from the how to Fail podcast. I wanted to share something I'm genuinely excited about. One of my favourite UK wellness brands, Ancient and Brave, has just launched in the us. I've used two of their products in my daily routine and they've made a tangible difference. The first is True Creatine Plus. With added taurine, vitamin D and magnesium, it supports physical performance, energy and cognitive function. It's easy to take at home or on the go, whether I'm working out or not. I also use their clinically studied True Collagen, a pure, potent and powerful staple that supports skin elasticity and hydration as well as whole body health. It's EU sourced, so free from growth hormones or antibiotics, plus it's neutral in taste and dissolves effortlessly into coffee or smoothies or a cup cup of tea. I would say that as a Brit, wouldn't I? Ancient and Brave are proud members of 1% for the planet, meaning that 1% of their sales go to environmental causes, wellness. That feels good and does good too. Go to ancientandbrave.com planet and use the code howtofail. That's howtofail. No spaces or one word for $10 off any purchase. Masterclass is the streaming platform that makes it possible for anyone to watch or listen to hundreds of video lessons taught by more than 2 of the world's best. Whether it be in business and leadership, photography, cooking, acting, music, sports and more, Masterclass delivers a world class online learning experience. The classes that excited me the most were the ones on writing, so there's a session with actual Malcolm Gladwell, author of Blink and the Tipping point. He's done 24 classes on how to find, research and write stories that capture big ideas and it's totally inspiring. I love that you can turn your commute or workout into a classroom with audio mode so you can listen to a Masterclass lesson anytime, anywhere. Right now, our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual membership@masterclass.com fail. That's 15% off@masterclass.com fail masterclass.com fail Few contemporary directors are as instantly recognisable as Baz Luhrmann. For over three decades he has made films that feel less like traditional dramas and more like operatic spectacles detonated from a glitter cannon. His work is unapologetically maximalistic, spectacular and romantic, and the chances are your life has been shaped in some way by his vision. Whether it's watching the fish tank scene in his 1996 version of Romeo and Juliet Juliet or gasping when the 19th century characters burst into 20th century song in 2001's Moulin Rouge. Whether it's recalibrating how we think about Elvis Presley in Lerman's 2022 biopic, or using the Leonardo DiCaprio martini glass GIF from his Great Gatsby, or whether it's owning a sticky fingered copy of his debut film Strictly Ballroom on VHS as I did. Luhrmann's cultural influence extends far beyond the scre and world builder who once described himself as the Stanley Kubrick of sequins. Lerman's own story starts in Herons Creek, a small rural town in New South Wales, Australia. His father owned a petrol station and cinema. His mother had a dress shop and was a ballroom dancing teacher. Little wonder perhaps, that Lerman's fascination with spectacle and the nature of performance started so young. At 19, he changed his name from Mark, which he thought was boring, to Bazmark after his class compared his hair to Basil Brush. Lerman's latest film sees him return to Elvis, this time in documentary form. Epic Elvis Presley in Concert features long lost footage from the singer's Las Vegas residency. Variety has called it one of the most exciting concert films you've ever seen, while Luhrmann himself describes it as a tone poem on the shadow selves of person and performer. It's something he's thought about a lot once claiming that for artists or people with big holes in their hearts, the self medication is the creative process. Baz Luhrmann, welcome to how to Fail.
- [05:24]
Baz Luhrmann
A lot of homework there.
- [05:25]
Elizabeth Day
That was probably one of the longest intros I've ever written and I was nervous saying it out loud in front of you.
- [05:32]
Baz Luhrmann
Look, I mean I can't talk about the stuff in terms of the effect on people individually, but yes, quite often people do that sort of stuff and I go really? I don't think I ever said that. But you were dead accurate. I wouldn't deny anything you Said, oh, I'm so happy as far as the story goes.
- [05:54]
Elizabeth Day
I'm so happy to hear that. Well, let me see if I can make you deny anything over the course of the next 60 minutes.
- [06:00]
Baz Luhrmann
Go for it.
- [06:01]
Elizabeth Day
There were so many quotes I could have chosen from you to end on. I love the way that you talk about creativity, but that idea of creative creativity is self medication.
- [06:10]
Baz Luhrmann
Yes.
- [06:11]
Elizabeth Day
How's your self medication going, Baz?
- [06:13]
Baz Luhrmann
Yeah, well, right now I'm medicating heavily. And I mean that in that for someone at my stage in life I sort of was struggling a bit with. I often say when I make the last movie or something, this is it, I'm going to become a recluse. I've been saying that for so long and just go and read books somewhere. But then you get through them. And right now I'm more creatively busy, if it's possible, than I was when I was 28. Like, I've got, you know, I'm opening Epic. I'm working on Jeanne d', Arc, even. I just announced this lovely Belmont dining car because we do other things. I'm very medicated.
- [06:53]
Elizabeth Day
Okay. And is it helping you feel loved?
- [06:58]
Baz Luhrmann
I think there's all sorts of love. You know, I'm in the love business. If you see my films. And there's like, champagne, love is like a youthful love. It's like the giddy, intoxicated romance love. And there's love for children or your child. And there's a kind of love that is just that which is between friends or that is sort of a bond. There's so many different brands and kinds of love, but it's certainly fulfilling. I mean, what I mean is not that I go, oh, I'm so fulfilled. It's just I'm so consumed with it. A lot of negative vibes won't get in. I'm not spinning out. Look, when I finish a big project, I go in and kind of. I call it the methadone program. When I go and do everything. The opposite I do when I'm hugely responsible for giant things and which usually entails going on some journey and acting like a fool and getting smashed a lot, you know, and growing old disgracefully. So I'm not doing a lot of growing old disgracefully right now.
- [08:03]
Elizabeth Day
Okay.
- [08:05]
Baz Luhrmann
Hard as I try.
- [08:07]
Elizabeth Day
Elvis is clearly someone who fascinates you. And I feel, having had the privilege of watching Epic and seeing Elvis when it came out, that I could draw some parallels between the two of you. But what is it that you think draws you in to Him.
- [08:22]
Baz Luhrmann
Well, originally, look, he was very big in my life when I was young because when we did that cinema, we had the Elvis matinees, you know, that's where it started. And he was there present. But then fairly quickly after the 70s, as I was growing up, I went on to Bowie and Elton and you know, the Michael Jacksons and the Eltons and, you know, other artists musically. But Emma, Donna Pretty mentioned M. But when I came to doing a biopic, I'd always admired Amadeus, one of my favorite films. One of my favorite films. And you realize that that biopic is not about Mozart. You learn a lot. It's about jealousy. And I always thought, well, if I do a biopic, I want to use a life that is about something bigger and more universal. And Elvis is the perfect page on which you can explore America in the 50s, 60s and the 70s. And his life is almost perfectly broken into these three acts. So I started just recently to discover notes and things I'd put away on ELVIS, like literally 30 years ago.
- [09:29]
Elizabeth Day
And Epic does such an amazing job of showing him as this superlative performer and as a person and the moments in between. And I realized watching it, how little I'd seen both in a way, because so much of it has become cliche or caricature. I'm fascinated with how you did it. And I'm sure you've been asked this a million times before because it's. It's so hyper real when you're watching it. But you didn't use AI In a single frame.
- [10:01]
Baz Luhrmann
No, there's not a single frame of AI there's no visual effects. The only visual effect is the one he has on the audience. What happened was it was an accident. I was making Elvis the Movie and Ernst Jorgen, who's this great professional on Elvis the expert, said, look, there are these lost reels from the 70s concert in Vegas. I thought, oh, maybe I can find them, use them in the movie. So I had the resources to actually literally send a guy into the salt mines in Kansas City where MGM kept all its footage, and he sort of kicks the door open. I didn't go. But then I get these pictures back of like. It was like Raiders of the Lost Ark, you know, these dusty 67 boxes of footage. And then this moment happened when we found this 45 minute tape of Elvis in this really unguarded way, just talking about himself, which in any Elvis materials he really doesn't do. It's always someone talking about him or there's a film in which there's a Voice impersonator speaking A script that was written, but not just spontaneously. And so we thought, well, what if we get out of the way and Elvis just comes to you in a kind of dream concert and sings and tells his story to you in a really intimate way? And that's why what you're experiencing. I'm hearing this a lot. People who don't care about Elvis have been seeing the film going, who is this guy? He's so funny, he's so vulnerable. He's so good at making everyone feel relaxed. And on stage, you just feel you're the only person in the room.
- [11:37]
Elizabeth Day
Before we get into your failures, can I just ask you about a few key moments that just live in my brain rent free? The fish tank scene, the aquarium in Romeo and Juliet. How did you come up with that idea?
- [11:48]
Baz Luhrmann
Okay, here it goes. So I'm working with Craig Pierce, my high school friend, who I'm writing. Eventually we're writing the Romeo and Juliet together, Sam. And a few of us are down in Miami. And I'm working on that actual sequence. I can't. Thinking like, well, how do we. We know we're gonna meet Juliet, but how does Romeo meet Juliet? And yet you surprise them. And I'm out at this nightclub called the Dome. It was a restaurant nightclub in Miami, in Florida. And, you know, I was only about. I think I was 29, 28. And so. Well, I'd had a few Sherry's, let's be honest, you know, might have had a tippling. And I went into a bathroom and came out and I grew up doing fish tanks, actually, I had. Dad made sure we all had little businesses. And I sold tropical fish. And there's this beautiful tropical fish tank in front of me. So I'm washing my hands and I look up and I see a girl through the tropical fish tank combing her hair. And this nightclub had worked out this idea of you couldn't see the stalls or anything, but while you were washing and doing your reflection, you could see each other through the fish tank. Really? To hook up, I think, or to flirt. And in that moment I went, that's it. All I have to do now is work out why is Romeo going into the bathroom. And that had something to do with Queen Mab. I'm not sure what it was, but whatever he took made him feel queasy.
- [13:13]
Elizabeth Day
A couple of Sherry's.
- [13:14]
Baz Luhrmann
Something, something magical.
- [13:17]
Elizabeth Day
Music is a hugely important part of your work. It's the sort of fabric of your storytelling in so many ways.
- [13:22]
Baz Luhrmann
One big part of the fabric. Yeah.
- [13:24]
Elizabeth Day
That song Everybody's Free to Wear Sunscreen, which came out in 1999. I remember exactly where I was when I heard it for the first time. I listened to it again on the way into this interview, and it still makes me well up every time I listen to it. How did that come about?
- [13:38]
Baz Luhrmann
Oh, gosh. I do a lot of music, actually, and I was learning to produce music. And although I work with great producers, I'm literally in there. I mean, on Elvis, I'm in the studio and I love it. It's one of my great joys. But I was trying to learn. I was making this charity album with a guy called Anton Monstead, who was my music supervisor and he was my assistant, and now he runs music at Amazon and I love him and he's dear, dear friend. There was this thing called the World Wide Web. That's how long ago it was. And there was this speech on it by. And it was apparently ascribed to being by the author of Slaughterhouse Five and Kurt Vonnegut, who I was maybe going to work with and found out there's a hoax. But I went like, hang on. But it's really meaningful. Why didn't I record it as a spoken word? So I do it, it's like seven minutes long. And I use the choirs from Romeo and Julietta on. It's like 11 minutes long. So I finish the album, go down the local radio station, they won't play it. They go like, oh, terrible. The whole album, it's too weird. And so I go on the arts program that night and I say, yeah, on one condition. You play this 7 minute long spoken word song. So they play it, and just like in a movie, there's a guy tapping on the glass while we're in the student's playing and he's pointing and all the lights are lighting up on the dashboard. And the next day they went, wow, this is an amazing response. They play it the next day, and by the afternoon, cars are stopping, listening, and by 48 hours later, it's the biggest song in the country. I then go to the U.S. same thing happens. The label said, no, it's too long, it's too strange. So I went into college radio, played it, Boom. Next thing, it's huge. It's gone gold. In, like, we bring out the guy that did the voice and he's on all the chat shows. And actually it ended the charts in England at number one. And the thing was, I recorded it probably in 97. And then I thought, well, what if they needed class of 98, class of 99. I did to 2000, thinking by 2000 no one would care. So I ran out of beginnings. But it has just endured. And I think it's because what is said in it, my whole point was, does it matter whether it was Vonnegut or not or this lovely writer from the Herald Tribune? What's in it affects people. And in this dark time, I reckon they should remix it and re release it because it does seem to cut through ugly noise.
- [16:09]
Rachel Hampton
It does.
- [16:10]
Elizabeth Day
Thank you for that. We'll talk more about your films as they pertain to your failures. But your first failure. And thank you because I can tell you've really thought about these.
- [16:19]
Baz Luhrmann
Yeah, yeah.
- [16:21]
Elizabeth Day
Your first failure is that you went to the National Institute of the Dramatic Arts in Australia, but you felt that you lost your instincts.
- [16:30]
Baz Luhrmann
Yes, so true.
- [16:31]
Elizabeth Day
Tell us about that period of your
- [16:32]
Baz Luhrmann
life before I went. I mean, I've always done this and I'd been in movies with Judy Davis and I had my own little theater company. You're going to remember all of this now, but I kind of had just done this. I mean, even in high school I was running off, you know, I barely graduated because I was mainly running my little theater company and, and all of that. And even in the tiny country town I was making films and shows. But I auditioned for nida. Actually, I didn't get in and eventually I became so successful, I think they're embarrassed and they just basically said, turn up and we'll let you in. So because I was very well known by then, so I go to NIDA and I think, God, now I'm like a serious actor, serious creator. What does a serious person do? Well, they isolate themselves. And I was having actually this relationship with someone, but even that I kept secret. And I guess I was acting out being an actor. You know, you do that. Drama schools are invariably these kind of hot houses where everyone thinks, oh, that one's a star. And you know, you think that's the universe and it's not very real, but. And it's useful. I mean, I loved the history of theater and you had an opportunity to do a lot of plays and things. And indeed I even devised Strictly Ballroom. But I got so self conscious that when I came out I really lost who I was. And I was having a relationship with someone and she came out and I thought I'd just pick up where I left off and be even doing more things. Suddenly I had nothing. Nothing. And I fell into this. She was actually in a movie with a very famous English actor and I thought, wow, it's all gone horribly wrong. What have I done? And I fell into one of these rare, deep depressions. I was so dark and so lost. I couldn't get out of bed. And I remember just dragging. Eventually, I dragged myself down to this old 1930s swimming place by the ocean. And I'd just sit there all day, staring. And then I added reading the paper to it. I think I used to eat an ice cream, and I wanted to get in the water, but I was so depressed, I couldn't even swim. And then one day I did swim, and I felt better. So what am I gonna do? I've got this idea about. This is a crazy idea, this Russian ballet dancer. Cause it was during the Soviet Union, washing up and he meets. It was sort of Macbeth set in surf clubs or something. It was nuts. But I thought, I'm gonna get all my friends back together and just do a little show. And I did it. I did this little show. And at the end, there was this kind of tsunami wave. And we did black, like theater. And we just did this one workshop of it. And it went crazy. It was so nuts. I remember I got everyone to go out and get fresh fruit because the audience were actually in the foyer. And I still hadn't finished the show. But they came and it was. Kind of went really well. And this agent for directors and creators saw it called Hillary Linstead, and she said, this is one of the craziest, coolest things I've seen. And then all of a sudden, I just started to make things again. And then I got an invitation to go to a drama school to take Strictly Ballroom. We took it, and there were all these great artists from the Soviet Union there. But we won. And from that moment on, I've been doing what I'm doing ever since. But what I learned there was that I was embarrassed about being this geek from small country town. And I was ashamed that I liked people, that I really liked people. And I really liked being with people and connecting with people, and that I was kind of quite affable. And that just didn't seem cool enough. And I learned from that. I had a natural affinity with observing people in a room, being in a gas station, people coming by and you're sort of invisible. And I'm quite good with that. But I learned not to get too focused on myself.
- [20:49]
Elizabeth Day
I remember a writer called Johann Hari saying that the opposite of addiction is connection. Because when you are experiencing a degree of isolation and alienation, which is what fuels addiction, actually reaching out and having that moment of connection can save you. And I think that's such.
- [21:06]
Baz Luhrmann
I couldn't agree more. And I think we're living in a world where and with our kids, we'll look back and we'll go, hang on. We put this thing called, you know, a smartphone in their hands. And look, I'm not going to get into like, I'm blanketly against it all, but we just live online and internally so much that loneliness and disconnection is a really big issue. And I think connection connecting with people. But what we're seeing is that younger people actually want to go out and commune more. That's why touring is so big.
- [21:36]
Elizabeth Day
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- [22:46]
Rachel Hampton
Hey, psst. You didn't hear this from me, but Normal Gossip is back for its ninth season. Join me, Rachel Hampton, as I share the juiciest gossip from the real world with some very special guests. This season, we're bringing back some old friends, a Radiotopia buddy, and for the first time ever, a Nobel laureate. That's right. We have Malala. On season nine, Normal Gossip is out on all your favorite podcast platforms.
- [23:17]
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- [23:45]
Elizabeth Day
Can we go back a bit in your childhood and talk about whether you felt connected as a child? So you were from this. Yes, you were from this little town. But it sounds like this extraordinary gallimorphary of technicolor experience.
- [23:58]
Baz Luhrmann
Yeah, I mean at the time it didn't see it that way, but now I realize like dad and mom in a different way. But we were in Sydney, we go, they buy this rundown gas station and dad absolutely transforms it and we have a farm, a pig farm. And then we have. And we all had to have businesses and mom had dress shops and he bought a place nearby. Then we were running a cinema and then artists come to live with us. And then dad was just like nonstop, literally. We were doing ballroom dancing and commando training and breeding. I was breeding fish and I had koi carp and I had my own business and it was non stop and I think that doing magic and putting on shows. I had a radio station that I used to run at the gas station with this one record called One is the Loneliest number by John Farnham. And then I got my brother to read the sports page. He went on a bit. Yeah, we were so connected. And I was also invisible because I was like the 10 year old that was pumping gas and so people would do stuff in front of you and there were always this panoply of fascinating human beings. But then dad being the kind of, you know, he just made worlds, this world building. And so we had a restaurant where we had sizzle plates and I used to wear a white shirt and a bow tie and serve people food. And then there was Len's International snack bar. So looking back, we were kind of the renaissance players of this Herons Creek. We were learning lots of skills. Photography. I was filming things. He never said no. He was always an enthusiast and he drove us the kind of two hours every night to learn ballroom dancing.
- [25:38]
Elizabeth Day
I'm fascinated by your dad because he was a Vietnam veteran and I wonder if this world building was an attempt to escape that or move on from what he'd witnessed.
- [25:53]
Baz Luhrmann
Yeah, I think he absolutely like he built a house when we were in Sydney, when we were very young, before he left the navy after Vietnam. And it's a beautiful mid modern house. And when I look back, I was born on the sand in front of that house. And when I look back, he learned how to build it with his own hands out of a book. I mean how do you do that? And mom was pregnant with us and she used to put Bricks on a conveyor belt. And he was always sort of hustling too. Cut to me and my brothers, if there was free blue metal or something up the road, we'd get up and shovel it in. And he'd invent a pathway. It was quite inventive. He'd invent machines and things and he transformed this gas station into this kind of caravancia of fascination. And it became really famous. People would stop not just for the snacks or the way it looked or to see the plants or. But there was always. We'd have copper corn night and events. So it was a kind of. It was a world in itself for sure. And he built that with us on the wing.
- [27:03]
Elizabeth Day
It's beautiful. Your parents got divorced when you were 12 and I imagine that was shattering.
- [27:09]
Baz Luhrmann
It was enormously tumultuous because, well, of course, any 12 year old, any kid, your parents are the center of your life. And dad and mom, mom her own way too. She was off going, doing theater and stuff. And she went through quite a transformation too. Like she's still incredibly vital. I mean she's nine, you can lift the truck. She's really strong. But she split. Herons Creek was too small for her. She took my little sister in a lamb. It was really tumultuous. And then dad remarried this woman who had kids. And this woman actually was a really lovely, kind woman. But for us, our world had been shattered. And so eventually I ran away too, reconnected with mom, had my own apartment out the back. So I love that. But I went for this really forward thinking school in Port Macquarie that was experimental and it was co ed boys and girls to this really oppressed Christian Brothers school. Which actually is the location in the Great Gatsby of Gatsby's mansion. We use it with visual extensions. So that was a shock. That's where I got the drop. Because dad kept our hair very short. We were sort of beaten up for that. Now I was being beaten up for having crazy curly hair. And they used to go me Bazilbrush, which became Baz. And in an act of defiance, I put the two names together. I thought, you know, I'm going to be someone. So I need a brand name Bazmark, which is on my passport. And I've had it ever since.
- [28:47]
Elizabeth Day
This idea of connection and those early experiences of the most important relationship in your life really being ruptured. Do you think that informed how romantic your style is? Albeit it focuses quite a lot on doomed romance in the Red Curtain trilogy particularly. I'm just Interested in how much you think that romanticism and that lens was informed by what your parents went through and what you went through.
- [29:14]
Baz Luhrmann
Well, I think both things. I think dad put us in a world and encouraged us to invent, create. There was no cap on what you could do with your imagination. And then the rupture, I'm sure, left a kind of feeling of trying to put the world back together again. I think if you. Without getting too serious about my own pain, because there are people that lose parents forever and go through much greater pain than I did. But I think if you have pain in your life, you tend not to want to make films about pain. You want to make films that either have happy endings or are heightened or escaped. You want things to be. I mean, romanticism, which I used to rail against being called a romantic, but now I accept that I am a hopeless romantic. Romanticism just means things are more than they possibly can be. They're heightened. And I am drawn to that. And I even create a romantic world around the act of making the films. It's not just that the films have a romanticism. Anyone who comes into my world, they come into a complete. That's why they take so long to make a world in which the outside world doesn't count that much. Only what we're making together does.
- [30:37]
Elizabeth Day
Talking about collaboration, it remains incredibly important to you.
- [30:40]
Baz Luhrmann
Yes, it's everything.
- [30:41]
Elizabeth Day
And you don't do a normal audition process. You do these collaborative workshops with actors. Can you tell us a little bit about that process, how it works?
- [30:49]
Baz Luhrmann
I learned this. I mean, I've acted myself when I was young and I was with Judy Davis and things like that. And what I don't do is let someone come into my space. And everyone else might roll their eyeballs and go, no, definitely not. And I just go, my job is to get you the job. One and two, I don't do it that often. So if we spend a half day on it, I want to learn something about this scene through you. It's a privilege that I've got you in front of me. Let's work on the scene. And don't you be thinking about, are you right for the role? I won't be thinking about it. I'll be thinking, what can we learn out of the scene? And then I'll go away and I'll go, and we'll do more. And what it usually reveals itself. I mean, with Austin Butler Butler, it just revealed itself. Like he was already down the road when he came in. And by the time he says, I forgot to tell him he had the job, which I want to do because I just keep doing it, but it was more we would just eventually start doing it, you know, and same thing just recently with Gendarme, I saw some wonderfully talented young actors who I didn't know. And by doing the workshops, which I actually did, I think I can say it in the Chiltern. After it was burned out, Andre lent it to me because it was a secret, nice environment to do it in place where I'd had so much fun. But there we were doing scenes out of Jeanne d'.
- [32:08]
Rachel Hampton
Arc.
- [32:08]
Baz Luhrmann
But Isla Johnson, who's playing that role, it came out of that process where we were just focusing on what can we learn about this character in this story. And I feel so precious and privileged. And it's so my look. Children play act really brilliantly. It's called a screenplay. You know, we are but players. But if you scare a child, they can't play. So I see my job as keeping fear out of the room. I take the fear on in the morning when I get up, and I really allow everyone to play and fail, as they like to say sometimes, oh, it's a safe environment. You can fail, but you really can't. But with me, I want you to go so far that it does go too far or it goes too wrong. Because then we're gonna find a third idea. Not yours, not mine. A third idea. I never say no. Really? Oh, I never say no.
- [33:10]
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- [33:59]
Elizabeth Day
Experian Experience.
- [34:02]
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- [34:31]
Elizabeth Day
Your second failure takes us forward a few years. And there's the Australian bicentenary in 1988, and there's a huge grant offered for a young artistic director to create a theater company. And you get it, Baz?
- [34:46]
Baz Luhrmann
Yes, I get it.
- [34:48]
Elizabeth Day
Why is this a failure?
- [34:49]
Baz Luhrmann
Well, it was 1988. By then, I think I was quite well known. I'd been in films. I had my own Bond Theatre company. I'd been in nida. I think I was known. Ish. But everybody wanted this gig. I mean, it was a lot of money being thrown around because of Bozentenary and the most important theater company in Sydney. The Sydney Theatre Company was run by this artistic director called Richard Werrett. And he was a great guy and he was a great director. But this giant grant came where some young person could have their own theater company. And out of everybody in the whole country, I got the gig. I was the artistic director. But what happened? And again, it was me kind of stepping on my own instincts. But the technical things I tried to do, like, originally I was just going to do it in an open space with flowers and mirrors, but the technical things I tried to do was so high end, you know, with amplified voice. I got lost again. And the opening up was so catastrophic. Very well known. People came and sort of left and the reviews were beyond. I mean, there was a lot of jealousy about. I mean, I had long curly hair and was probably, I don't know, 22 or something. So there was a bit of, like, how he only got it because he had long, curly black hair. But, you know, I was really. It was the first time I felt I was actually super attacked in the press, like. And I felt it and the reviews were absolutely scathing. And it sent me into this dark, dark depression for the second time. And we did that show, which was failure. And then the second show was this other person who was a dramaturg who wanted to do their show and this other writer. And it was kind of a mess. And the third show, the final show, I went, well, I'm gonna bring back that piece I did called Strictly Ballroom, because that is actually me. So I did it, extended, it added in the sort of Spanish, you know, the sort of immigrant plot line. And we went to this festival 88. And at the end of it, I also went, look this. I actually just put on this joyous kind of event at the Sydney Theater Company, which was called Coca Cola Bottlers Dance hall, whereby everyone had to go and learn to dance if you've got a ticket. And we recreated 1945 Victory Night. And I did all these cabaret numbers and it was just for fun. And it blew up. And then the next day, the guys from the Australian Opera saw my Strictly Bore and offered me my own opera company to do an experimental opera. My life went from being completely dead creatively. And then this guy, this lovely guy and his wife called Ted Albert said, look, I saw your Strictly Ballroom. I want to start a film company. I have this band, acdc, rather famous. Yeah, we'd like to buy the rights of your play Strictly. We want to make a film. I said, well, no, I'm going to make a movie of it. And they went away and he came and said, hmm, okay, you can do it. And I never stopped. Wow. And I learned from that. Again, my instincts has always been, it's not, are they my friends? It's that, am I having a conversation with someone? And there's more to have. And I don't really read CVs a bit, but I really go, is there more to a conversation? And that means I can really work with someone. And with cm, for example, or Craig, or anyone I've worked with for a long time.
- [38:31]
Elizabeth Day
Wife.
- [38:31]
Baz Luhrmann
Yeah, my wife, Catherine Marner, of course. Cm. She came in. I was looking for someone to work as a designer in that company. She had this other partner she worked with. I went back to my drama school and she came to this place I lived at by the brothel King's Cross. And I had like two sticks of furniture and I had to offer a croissant. And we started talking about Bertolt Brecht and Madonna. And supposed to be an hour and the conversation went on for three hours or something. And we're still having a conversation today. So that's how I realized that this whole idea that you are to I just not me, I have to have some connective tissue, some connectivity with primary collaborators. And that's how I decide. Is the conversation going on? Is the music going on?
- [39:22]
Elizabeth Day
People have a weird fascination with your marriage.
- [39:25]
Baz Luhrmann
Yes.
- [39:26]
Elizabeth Day
Does it annoy you? The fascination, I mean.
- [39:28]
Baz Luhrmann
Well, I can understand it. I mean, my stuff is really camp and our relationship is, well, camp in one regard. Like, I use that theatricality and there's a sort of underlying seriousness to it. And Sim and I People say, well, when did you get married? I said, I don't remember. I just know we've always been together, and it's a truly real relationship. I love her, and if she was gone tomorrow, I don't know what I'd do. But we also are very distinctly different individuals. We understand each other. The relationship works in a way in which it works for us. It's not traditional in so many ways. My kids make lots of jokes about me.
- [40:13]
Elizabeth Day
What kind of jokes?
- [40:14]
Baz Luhrmann
Oh, you know, I mean, they just kind of mock me a lot. It keeps me very grounded. Sometimes they call me RuPaul. I mean, I don't know, like, in a fun way. But we are this absolutely real relationship. But we also have our commitment to each other, which is, I think, what real marriages are, which is they're contracts with each other that, you know, are good for each other, and there are things you can change and things you can't. But weddings are actually advertisements to everybody else that you're together, you know, and, you know, CM does her stuff sometimes, and, like, epic. I did that. That's my gig. She's got her homewares, but then on the visual language stuff, on the films. We work very, very closely together. But, you know, I think really deep love, and love transforms over the years is the person that you can have the most trust with. So there's a profound trust. She's the person I would turn to, and I'm the person she would turn to when you really got things you can't say to anyone else.
- [41:28]
Elizabeth Day
You know, One of my favorite pieces of Baz Luhrmann footage is actually a TikTok video. You know where I'm going with this?
- [41:37]
Baz Luhrmann
I do.
- [41:37]
Elizabeth Day
It was. It was just casually iconic. It was so funny.
- [41:41]
Baz Luhrmann
Yeah.
- [41:42]
Elizabeth Day
Did you have you. What happened?
- [41:44]
Baz Luhrmann
What happened? I was taking the kids. It was Mardi Gras. And we always go, I take the kids. And we were buying ice cream, actually, in Newtown, and I turned around, and this kid, she was sort of being kind of cheeky, asking me questions, and I'm like, I wasn't gonna go. And it became pretty clear that she had no idea who it was. So she was asking pretty straight up questions, and I just gave my honest answers.
- [42:10]
Elizabeth Day
Yeah.
- [42:10]
Baz Luhrmann
Yeah. And I think what happens is she goes home and someone says, you know, that's Baz Luhrmann. And she didn't know. So I don't know. I thought it was kind of fun and charming.
- [42:23]
Elizabeth Day
Well, I loved your response because it just shows how open hearted you are to the world. And Actually, it's a lesson to every interviewer to just ask the direct questions.
- [42:31]
Baz Luhrmann
It was brilliant. Yeah.
- [42:33]
Elizabeth Day
Final question on this failure. Did it teach you how to deal with criticism?
- [42:38]
Baz Luhrmann
Yes. I mean, well, when you first get re. Yes. Did I mean, when you first get really criticized publicly, you actually think that everybody in the street is pointing you and going, like, there he is. That terrible. He's the one, right? And you're so embarrassed and ashamed. But then as things go on, you learn. As Elvis says in Epic, he says, well, you know, you can't please everyone. And you learn. It still hurts if someone viciously attack something that you and a bunch of people have really given your heart and soul to. And you think like, well, couldn't you just say why it's not working? As opposed to somehow, we're bad people? Whatever that is. But what you learn to do is understand that they've got a job and they're. You know, they're criticizing, and some criticism is really, really good. And somebody go like, yeah, I kind of get that. But you curate that. I mean, early on with the press, I'd read everything, I'd write, I'd do everything. Oh, did I get it right? And you feel really compelled to sort of explain yourself completely, like it's your biography in one interview. Then as you go through this, I never look back at this stuff. I just sort of tell it from the heart. And, you know, in print, sometimes people are really lovely to be with, and then they, you know, they've got editors, and editors know that, you know, a headline is gonna get clickbait or whatever, but I just don't take it. I've got this little mantra which is, you know, focused, simple. Simple, focused, humble, and it's not that deep.
- [44:13]
Elizabeth Day
Your final failure. I'm so happy we're going to talk about one of my favorite films of all time, Strictly Ballroom. But as you say to me, it wasn't a failure, it was a success. But you never realized its full potential.
- [44:25]
Baz Luhrmann
Well, I'm actually talking about that. The stage version.
- [44:28]
Elizabeth Day
Oh, okay. Can we talk about the movie afterwards?
- [44:31]
Baz Luhrmann
No, no. Well, the movie was a whole journey and actually great dramas because we finally. No one wants it. We finally get the money. That lovely man, Ted Albert suddenly dies on the eve of us about to make the film. His incredible wife steps in and says, we will. My husband, new talent. And even though the family's saying, we're in the music business, no, she funds it. When we screen Strictly Boring, the one cinema we have canceled, say, it's the worst film they've ever seen. I go up the coast, think, well, this film thing's not going to work out because they say it's too theatrical. And they also say the woman playing the mother in it is the worst performance she's ever given. You've ruined her career. I get a phone call and this guy's got a French accent. He says, my name is Pierre Roussillon. I'm from the Cannes Film Festival. I just saw your film Strictly Ballroom. I'm going to offer you or 12 o' clock screening. We go, rest is history. It still has the record for the most amount of sales in 24 hours. And off we go. And I remember a security guard grabs me because a crowd gets there. And he says, monsieur, from this moment on, your life will never be the same again. He was kind of right. But years later, years and years later, I do this relationship with Carmen Pavlovich, who's a great theater person to do. And we're going to do Strictly Boring. Millennial Ro. So I think I'll do the Strictly Ballroom because, you know, it's a way of being back in Australia. And I was very distracted and I couldn't get there. And it's not like the play was a complete failure. I just know that it's the first show I'd done in years where I was kind of off keel on it. And when I did it, I realized I should never go back and try and repeat the past. To quote a line from Gatsby, I just couldn't be me when I was 28. And I realized that's not the right thing. So the next time with Moulin Rouge, I was sitting at a dinner party at friend of mine in New York, and Alex Timbers, whose work I really loved and seemed to be like a nephew of mine in kind of his style. I just said to him, hey, would you like to do Moulin Rouge? And he went, are you kidding? Now I'm so glad he did it, the theater show, because I would turn up and see runs and give some notes, but I was more like Uncle Baz and he did things. And like, with all the new music, I probably wouldn't have done that because I would have gone with the fans. And you see, I love that. I don't want to go back to my old works and captain them. I'm happy to support someone else reinterpreting them. And I'm not precious about them as long as the essence is there. I love the way that someone will take something I did and reinterpret it. Because that's like Shakespeare, you know, you take Shakespeare and you recode it and rediscover it for a certain time in a certain place.
- [47:26]
Elizabeth Day
You know, there's this forward momentum but also this sort of presenteeism in you.
- [47:30]
Baz Luhrmann
Yeah, I agree with you.
- [47:31]
Elizabeth Day
You're fully present.
- [47:32]
Baz Luhrmann
Yeah, I'm fully present, but I'm always moving forward. I made all my films for the future not to be hip in the moment.
- [47:39]
Elizabeth Day
Say that again.
- [47:40]
Baz Luhrmann
I always made my films for the future not to be sort of hip in the moment or right in the moment or get the ticks and crosses, you know. I know there would have been a way of doing certain things where the critics will all go like, yeah, this is really on point. But like for example, in Romeo and Juliet, you can't date it because, you know, early on I realized there must be nothing you could date in it or even strictly borum. It's kind of vaguely 90s, but there's nothing in it that really perfectly dates them because I want them to have a universality and I wanted them to move through time and space and grow as they time.
- [48:18]
Elizabeth Day
Although you don't look at, you're in your 60s now, I think, well, I've got.
- [48:22]
Baz Luhrmann
I've got sunglasses on, I'm holding my bags.
- [48:25]
Elizabeth Day
No, you've got excellent skin.
- [48:26]
Baz Luhrmann
Oh, well, thanks.
- [48:28]
Elizabeth Day
You don't make films quickly because they are these beautiful collaborative processes.
- [48:33]
Baz Luhrmann
Well, I really live them. Once I go inside the world, I live them.
- [48:37]
Elizabeth Day
Have you thought about how many films you have left to make?
- [48:41]
Baz Luhrmann
There's been a bit of talk about that. Sam's been saying, look, he's only got like she said 10. And I think sky said, kidding, three at the most. I keep thinking I've got one couturier. Like it's like a fashion house in a way. The big films are like couture. Then we do all these other creative adventures. But I think I will do. I have this one large piece and there's many, many, many, many. I never have to think of a new idea. I've always got them, they're there, sitting there. But I just think this is the right time. And I was always going to do Alexander the Great. I worked on that for a long time and then for various reasons I didn't do it. But I just feel the story of this 17 year old dark world where she says, we've got to peel this world away from the knobbly old hands of these old men. I mean, could there be, could there be need for a Clearer hero than a generationally changing young person who says, what you're doing to this world is not right. And I've got a vision and I'm here to lead us, our generation, into a new time and a new place.
- [49:50]
Elizabeth Day
Jeanne d'.
- [49:50]
Baz Luhrmann
Arc.
- [49:50]
Elizabeth Day
That's your next film. I can't wait. A very superficial question, but one that I've always wondered about. You know that our version of Dancing with the Stars is called Strictly Come Dancing?
- [50:00]
Baz Luhrmann
Yeah.
- [50:01]
Elizabeth Day
Did they ever give you royalties for the title?
- [50:03]
Baz Luhrmann
No. What happened was, actually, I found out the woman who did it, she was a bit worried about it. We weren't. But she wanted to do Strictly Ballroom and she didn't. So she came up with this idea, Dancing with the Stars. Come. Strictly. Strictly Come Dancing. And it's a great success and only kind of helps the. So once, actually, when I was doing the Blu Ray of Strictly Ballroom, you know the older gent who was the judge?
- [50:25]
Elizabeth Day
Yes. Len Goodman.
- [50:26]
Baz Luhrmann
There's an American version called Dancing with Stars.
- [50:29]
Elizabeth Day
Yes.
- [50:29]
Baz Luhrmann
And I went on that to promote the Blu Ray. Took his gig for a depp. I was terrible. I'm terrible on those shows because I spent my whole life lifting people up. I'm not very good at saying, you know what, listen, Mr. UFC cage fighter, your cha cha sucks. You know, it's not me. So that's terrible.
- [50:51]
Elizabeth Day
Baz, this has been such a joy. And I know lots of other people, including myself, have opinions of your work and your brilliance. How would you like people to think of your work or remember your work
- [51:05]
Baz Luhrmann
if one person gets affected or. Look, I was growing up in a very tiny country town and I was a fan. Whether it was a Bowie or an Elvis or a movie or an Apocalypse Now. As I got older or whatever it was, discovering Bergman and constantly opening my mind to all sorts of creativity, whatever, I was a fan. And those things that touched and affected me sometimes didn't just thrill me for a weekend or stayed with me, sometimes they were my guide. So if something I've made helps one person have some kind of epiphany or uplift, or even if it's just escaping from a difficult time for a couple of hours into the cinema and come out and feel renewed, which I actually think Epic is doing to a lot of non Elvis fans, they just sort of go in and in this very dark world we're in, if there's one thing about Elvis, he's a uniter. And he's also really empathetic and funny, and his music and the way he performs lifts you up. So getting out of the way in this case and providing that, I just hope if one person has that, then I feel like I'm kind of useful.
- [52:24]
Elizabeth Day
Baz Luhrmann, thank you so much for coming on how to Fail.
- [52:27]
Baz Luhrmann
It's really. I didn't know how I'd go on this, you know, talking about failure, but I really enjoyed the therapy session. Dr.
- [52:34]
Elizabeth Day
Thank you so much. That's the ultimate compliment.
- [52:36]
Baz Luhrmann
I'm glad to pay you for my therapy.
- [52:38]
Elizabeth Day
No, you've paid me already in the culture you've produced. Thank you so much.
- [52:41]
Baz Luhrmann
No, it was beautiful. Hey, y'.
- [52:45]
Maddie
All, I'm Maddie.
- [52:46]
Baz Luhrmann
And I'm Poodle. And together we host the podcast Reality Castle. We are two ridiculous homosexuals who love nothing more than talking about reality television and tearing in a new one.
- [52:55]
Maddie
So whether it's 90 day fiance love
- [52:57]
Baz Luhrmann
is Blind Love After Lockup or any
- [52:59]
Maddie
other trash TV show about lonely hearts
- [53:02]
Baz Luhrmann
looking for love, your gay besties got you covered, y'. All. New shows every week. Follow and listen to reality gays. Wherever you get your podcast,
- [53:16]
Elizabeth Day
Please do follow how to fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends this is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.