Charlotte Church - ‘I was totally exploited. I was a commodity’

Summary

Podcast Summary: How To Fail With Elizabeth Day — Charlotte Church: ‘I was totally exploited. I was a commodity’

Date: October 15, 2025
Live from the Forum, Bath

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Episode Overview

In this deeply candid live episode, Elizabeth Day sits down with Charlotte Church—former child musical prodigy turned activist, healer, and retreat founder—to explore the pivotal failures that shaped her multifaceted journey. Charlotte discusses growing up in the public eye, the exploitative nature of the music industry, and her evolving relationship with nature, creativity, and activism. Throughout, the conversation balances humor with unflinching honesty, offering personal insights into healing, patriarchy, and the challenge of becoming one’s wildest, truest self.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Musical Awakening and Fame

[04:02] - [06:30]

• First Song and Childhood: Charlotte recounts her first song as “Ride On Time,” which she performed with gusto at age three—eschewing nursery rhymes for pop hits.
  • “Apparently I was just, absolutely shredding that Right On Time riff and just having a ball.”
    — Charlotte, [04:19]
• Natural Talent: Her mother noticed Charlotte's unusual musical recall, knowing the lyrics to all the top 40 songs by nursery age.
• Surreal Teenage Years: Charlotte details bizarre, whirlwind experiences—performing globally, sitting a GCSE at the White House, and presenting with celebrities like Wyclef Jean and Eminem at age 14.
  • “My life has been such an insane tapestry of experiences. A lot, really. A lot for a young person to deal with.”
    — Charlotte, [05:52]
• Notable Encounter: Tom Cruise stood out as tremendously kind to Charlotte and her family, defying Hollywood stereotypes.
  • “He knocked on my dressing room door and he had his two kids with him…’You’re so wonderful.’”
    — Charlotte, [06:36]

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2. Nature, Psychedelics, and Reconnection

[07:57] - [11:51]

• Working-Class Urban Upbringing: Nature was absent from Charlotte’s childhood in Cardiff; connection came only through travel and motherhood.
  • “A lot of the time when you’re working class in a city, nature doesn’t really factor… even going on a walk would be, like, what?”
    — Charlotte, [08:24]
• Psychedelic Experiences: Ayahuasca and mushrooms played a pivotal role in her healing journey, linking her to nature and self.
  • “I found my experiences to be revelatory, to be hard, but I'm also really interested...[in] what psychedelic medicine can do to us and can help us with, particularly in terms of our mental health and our trauma.”
    — Charlotte, [10:21]
• Crucial Realization: Rather than being separate, humans are “woven into the web of existence which is nature.”
  — Charlotte, [10:02]

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3. Failure One: Creative Suppression in the Music Industry

[11:51] - [17:47]

• Lack of Creative Autonomy: The young Charlotte was feted for her vocal talent, but her creative instincts were suppressed.
  • “I was constantly getting to sing with orchestras… But it wasn’t what I loved, you know, because actually at that time, what I loved was the Spice Girls.”
    — Charlotte, [13:12]
• Industry Resistance: Attempts to break from classical crossover to R&B were quickly shot down. She wasn’t allowed creative input.
  • “My tiny little startings of writing and making my own music…that very quickly got sort of shut down by the people that I was working with in the industry.”
    — Charlotte, [13:19]
• After the Industry: Self-funded releases allowed for total creative freedom, but required learning the business side herself. She now feels “free and golden and just like, easeful and juicy” in music creation.
  — Charlotte, [15:50]
• Finding Creativity Beyond Music: Curating her wellness retreat, The Dreaming, proved her creative power and helped heal old wounds about artistry.
  • “That was the thing…that really first started to make me accept and realize that I was a creative being.”
    — Charlotte, [17:47]

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4. The Exploitative Music Industry & Self-Protective Lessons

[19:20] - [24:07]

• Exploitation & Contractual Abuse: Charlotte did not feel protected or nurtured—she was a commodity, not a child:
  • “I was not looked after, I was not nurtured. I was just totally exploited, like I was a commodity… I had 40% of my earnings taken from me by my manager at the time.”
    — Charlotte, [19:47]
• Industry Context: The industry’s “soil was full of shit… full of terrible chemical compounds…strangling lots of young women at that time.”
  • “And that soil was full of shit.”
    — Charlotte, [20:58]
• Message to Her Younger Self: Despite exploitation, Charlotte expresses pride in her poise and inner calm amidst chaos.
  • “I’m really proud of her. I’m really proud of the poise that she showed and the bravery and the calm in the storm.”
    — Charlotte, [21:19]

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5. Failure Two: Patriarchal and Colonial Conditioning

[24:17] - [36:09]

• Patriarchy as Internal Conflict: Despite active self-work, Charlotte recognizes the inescapable grip of patriarchal and colonial ideas.
  • “[Getting tattoos], I could just see it all, like. And my whole body was, like, reactive to the ways in which I was still allowing sort of patriarchal oppression in my life…from men, from women, from others, from myself.”
    — Charlotte, [26:30]
• Lilith Symbolism: Her aquatic coral water snake tattoos were inspired by Lilith, “the first woman,” reinforcing spiritual and feminine strength.
• Compassion for Men and Healing Polarization: She stresses the harm patriarchy causes all genders and the need for compassion and balance.
  • “Patriarchy is fucking terrible news for all of us…as women are rising, that is making a lot of men feel, like, threatened… It’s just that they’re so used to imbalance.”
    — Charlotte, [26:59], [28:55]
• Generational Loss: Men’s loss of brotherhood and community, she suggests, leads to extra isolation and mental health struggles.
• Radical Forgiveness and Rage: While Charlotte finds it hard to fully forgive those who harmed her, especially in the tabloid press, she advocates for “tending the rage”—keeping fire alive, not letting it consume.
  • “Have I forgiven? Not quite. Okay. I gotta keep a little bit of that flame, that fire.”
    — Charlotte, [36:49]

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6. Tabloid Betrayals & Phone Hacking

[36:09] - [36:59]

• Leveson Inquiry & Tabloid Intrusions: The press not only hounded Charlotte; they hacked the phones of extended friends and her family priest.
• Wounds beyond Her: Charlotte recounts her mother’s depression and suicide attempt due to relentless press attacks, adding generational trauma.

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7. Failure Three: The Elusive Wild Woman

[38:50] - [45:43]

• The Wild Woman Archetype: Charlotte aspires to be freer, less confined by societal or personal restraints—connected to nature, creativity, and intuition.
  • “She is pure creativity. She’s…lush… In so many ways I think…I feel really confined. I feel really not free. I’m doing my own fucking head in… I’m still, like, in these traps, in these patterns and traps of behavior.”
    — Charlotte, [39:02]
• Perpetual Healing & Self-Work: She warns against spending all one’s life in relentless self-work, advocating for circling in and out of healing.
  • “We need to be able to circle in and out of it…go in for periods of time…But that is what makes us advance, is suffering.”
    — Charlotte, [41:53]
• Care for Others’ Opinions: Charlotte doesn’t care “what a lot of people think”—except insofar as she wants to bridge divides, even caring what “fascists think” to heal society’s polarity.
  • “What else are we supposed to do in this age of polarity than to be a bridge?”
    — Charlotte, [42:47]
• Mainstream Mockery: A recent TV sound bath segment mocked her alternative spirituality, deeply touching old wounds about not being taken seriously.
  • “That pissed me right off… I was like, I really like you, Alison, but fuck you.”
    — Charlotte, [43:21]
• Dance Between Radicalism and Mainstream: Constantly oscillating between pushing boundaries and playing the publicity game, for the sake of her causes.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I was just totally exploited, like I was a commodity.”—Charlotte Church [00:18], [19:47]
• “That soil was full of shit. Actually full of shit. Wouldn't be too bad, would it? Full of terrible chemical compounds…strangling lots of young women at that time.”—Charlotte [20:58]
• “Have I forgiven? Not quite. Okay. I gotta keep a little bit of that flame, that fire.”—Charlotte [36:49]
• “She’s so tantalizingly close, the wild woman...I feel really confined. I feel really not free. I’m doing my own fucking head in.”—Charlotte [39:02]
• “Tend the rage.”—Charlotte [37:10]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Charlotte’s early musical memories, industry surrealities: [04:02] – [06:30]
• Kindest celebrity encounter (Tom Cruise): [06:36]
• Nature, psychedelics & integration: [07:57] – [11:51]
• Failure 1: Creative autonomy suppressed by industry: [11:51] – [17:47]
• Music industry exploitation & self-reflection: [19:20] – [24:07]
• Failure 2: Stripping out patriarchal & colonialist conditioning: [24:17] – [36:09]
• Tabloid and phone hacking trauma: [36:09] – [36:59]
• Failure 3: Becoming the wild woman: [38:50] – [45:43]
• Sound healing TV anecdote, handling ridicule: [43:07] – [44:33]
• Radical honesty, navigating celebrity and activism: [44:40] – [45:43]

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Episode Tone & Closing

True to the spirit of “How To Fail,” the tone is raw, reflective, and empowering—equal parts laughter, vulnerability, and hard-won wisdom. Charlotte’s openness invites listeners to reconsider the meaning of failure in their own lives, reminding us that amidst rage, wounds, and societal shaming, healing and wildness remain possible.

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Recommended for: Anyone curious about fame, creativity, healing, activism, or simply seeking inspiration to be braver and wilder in the face of life’s adversities.

Transcript

[Elizabeth Day]

Welcome to this super special episode of How To Fail with Charlotte Church. This episode was recorded live from the Forum in Bath.

[Charlotte Church]

I was just totally exploited, like I was a commodity. I really don't give a fuck what a lot of people think. Oh, God, somebody. I'm gonna get cancelled.

[Stephanie Van Bismarck]

Hi, How To Fail listeners. Do you find yourself overwhelmed by the reams of advice about how to live your life that you scroll through every day? Me too. I'm Stephanie Van Bismarck. On my podcast, How Do We Manage? We tackle life's challenges with expert guests who bust myths around everything from AI to hormonal health and online dating to child protection. All with some great practical tips to help us find balance. How do we manage this out every Tuesday? Why not make it part of your week? Get it wherever you're listening to this.

[Jonathan Van Ness]

It'S Jonathan Van Ness from Getting Better. With Jonathan Van Ness, it's easy to feel hopeless, but we don't have to stay there. I'm all about finding places where we can turn that energy into hope and into action. One of those places is Americans United for Separation of Church and State. Americans United, or au, is this quiet but mighty force working every day to preserve freedom without favor and equality without exception. I am so obsessed with that tagline. And let me tell you something, honey, that wall between church and state, paper thin. It's got a leak, honey. It's one of the last safeguards protecting so many of our rights. So right now, from bodily autonomy to LGBTQ + rights to the future of public schools, to me, this is about creating a world where everyone gets to live as themselves. As long as you're not harming anyone else. Now is not the time to curl up and hide. It's the time to link arms and stand together for a better future. Join Americans United for Separation of Church and State and their growing movement. Because church, state separation protects us all. Learn more and join the [e-mail] better. Let's go. Americans United.

[Elizabeth Day]

My guest tonight has lived many lives. As a child, Charlotte Church found global fame as the classical singer with the voice of an angel. The by 22, she had sold 10 million records and performed for popes, presidents and princes. She then pivoted into pop music and TV, presenting her own chat show for Channel 4, earning her a British Comedy Award. In 2006, appearing in front of the Leveson inquiry into phone hacking as a victim of unscrupulous tabloid practices awakened church politically. She went on to support Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the Labour Party and has lent her voice to Myriad causes, including Welsh independence and a free Palestine. She is also a mother of three children. And now Charlotte Church has entered what is arguably her most powerful evolution yet. Her healer phase, opening a wellness retreat in the Paris Valley. The Dreaming aims to reconnect people with community, nature and the healing power of sound and music. Singing, Church says, is humanity's most powerful tool for healing and connection. It transcends language and culture and has the ability to unite and uplift.

[Charlotte Church]

Bath.

[Elizabeth Day]

Please unite and uplift and welcome to the stage the one and only Charlotte Church. It's so lovely to have you here. Thank you for being here with us.

[Charlotte Church]

Thank you so much for having me. It's wonderful to be in Bath, so thank you.

[Elizabeth Day]

I wondered if you can remember the first song that you ever sang.

[Charlotte Church]

The first song that I ever sang was Ride On Time. Yeah, yeah, that one.

[Elizabeth Day]

And it was just like that, wasn't it?

[Charlotte Church]

When I was about three on the dance floor, some family party and I was on the dance floor and apparently I was just like, absolutely shredding. Shredding that Right On Time riff and just having a ball.

[Elizabeth Day]

I love that. It wasn't a nursery rhyme or anything like that.

[Charlotte Church]

No, no. Because my mother said that the way she first knew that I had, like, unusual musical ability was that when I'd come home from nursery, I knew all of the lyrics to all of the top 40.

[Jonathan Van Ness]

Wow.

[Charlotte Church]

So she'd be like, what? This is bizarre. I just absolutely sucked up all that music.

[Elizabeth Day]

And obviously singing took you to some extraordinary and surreal places when you were a teenager. And I don't want to dwell too much on that because you are in this new evolution of self, but I wonder if you could just indulge me and tell me what one of the most bizarre experiences you had during that time was. I mean, I know you sat one of your GCSEs in the white House.

[Charlotte Church]

Yeah, it was such an evolving mental, as you say. Actually, surreal is a really good word for it, just because I was having to adapt at such a rate. So, like, on one day I'd be in Japan having to learn a Japanese song to do a commercial in a day. There was one trip where I went from the MTV Awards in America, so I was presenting an award with Wyclef Jean to Eminem. So I was just like, oh, my God, I was 14. I was just like, oh, my God, I'm just dying of embarrassment and excitement and all of it. But I was there with my mother, which was horrific. And then having to go from there early, which I was fuming about, because then I had a gig in Geneva where I was singing in a really spooky castle for Henry Kissinger and John Major. Oh, my gosh. Honestly, like, my life has been such an insane tapestry of experiences. A lot, really. A lot for a young person to deal with. A lot for an adult to deal with, but a lot for a young person to deal with, but it has given me quite a perspective on things.

[Elizabeth Day]

Who was the kindest person you met that we might have heard of during that time? Who was really kind to you?

[Charlotte Church]

Weirdly? Tom Cruise. Tom Cruise was so sweet. So we met him, we were doing a big TV show in la and we were told, tom Cruise is coming in, he's signing a motorbike for charity. Don't look at him, don't look at his face, don't look at his eyes. Just leave him alone. Don't even breathe around him sort of thing. So we were like, all right. Boom. And then he knocked on my dressing room door. He knocked on my dressing room door and he had his two kids with him, and he was like, we listen to your record every night before bedtime. My kids love your music. You're so wonderful. My mother had just gone out for a cigarette, so she's behind Tom Cruise at the dressing room door. Just like, introduce me to Tom. Introduce me to Tom. But it was so obviously surreal back then as well. He was like. It was right at the height of all the Mission Impossible stuff. He was one of the biggest stars in the world. So to have then, you know, Tom Cruise knock on your dressing room door. It was.

[Stephanie Van Bismarck]

Yeah.

[Charlotte Church]

And it was just very, very sweet.

[Elizabeth Day]

Did you introduce your mum to him?

[Charlotte Church]

I did.

[Elizabeth Day]

Thank goodness I did.

[Charlotte Church]

She was fine. She was happy as Larry. Then.

[Elizabeth Day]

I want to get into your failure shortly because I said to you before we started, they're really good and they're really deep, and I want to leave enough time for them. But before we do that, I want to talk to you a little bit about nature.

[Charlotte Church]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Day]

Because obviously this new era that you're in is all about reconnection with nature, but that was not something that you necessarily grew up with, was it? Yeah. So can you tell me a little bit about growing up not being connected with nature, and then how you came to realize it was important?

[Charlotte Church]

Sure. So I discussed this a lot in. I did a podcast with my family called Kicking Back with the Cardiffians, and that is.

[Elizabeth Day]

It's a great name.

[Podcast Guest or Contributor]

Yeah.

[Charlotte Church]

And that is really all about championing working class voices and stories. I think so often nowadays, all we get reflected back to us is the insane, you know, insanely wealthy lifestyles of the rich and famous and the hyper wealthy and not really of our own experience. But in that I talk a lot about what it is to grow up working class. And a lot of the time when you're working class in a city, nature just doesn't really factor. And it certainly didn't for my lot. I mean, like, going on a walk, like, even going on a walk would be like what, we go to the beach once a year and then through many different, you know, it wasn't a sort of light bulb moment. It was many different experiences over time. Some of those being when I was traveling when I was younger, seeing Niagara Falls and these incredible natural wonders that some of. Some of which I got to see whilst I was traveling and then having kids quite young myself. I had my first baby when I was 21 and then starting to go, oh, don't. Don't we mothers go outside and stuff? Are we in parks and looking at birds and such? And so then just sort of like, oh, I think this is what we're supposed to do to. Then having some psychedelic experiences and falling deeply, deeply in love with nature. And really then starting to understand who I was in relation to nature. Because I think that so many of us are feeling that we are separate from nature and we are estranged somehow, when really we are right at the center, we're right at the beating heart. We are woven into the web of existence which is nature.

[Elizabeth Day]

I want to hear a bit more about the psychedelic experiences.

[Charlotte Church]

I imagine you do.

[Elizabeth Day]

What's been the most transformative trip you've ever been on? We're in Bath. Come on.

[Charlotte Church]

I think so. I've done plant medicine and I've done ayahuasca. I've had a number of very transformative experiences with ayahuasca and with magic mushrooms. And I think that it's really incredible what we are learning now from the sort of neuroscience perspective of what psychedelic medicine can do to us and can help us with, particularly in terms of our mental health and also our trauma, the traumas that we're carrying. So I found my experiences to be revelatory, to be hard, but I'm also really interested. There's a lot of new studies coming out at the moment, which is really looking into areas like psychotherapy and such, but always going into our traumas in a super safe, super held, super comfortable place where in first nations communities, a lot of this healing and a lot of this trauma work would be done with plant medicines and within a ceremonial ritualistic context, which often included pain.

[Elizabeth Day]

Well deflected. Thank you.

[Charlotte Church]

What a pro.

[Elizabeth Day]

Well, let's get into your failures because it will lead us into some fascinating territory. Your first failure is your failure to truly allow your creative voice and the music in your soul to reign supreme.

[Charlotte Church]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Day]

So tell us about that tension, the music in your soul and the music that for many years, I imagine, you were producing and selling. Did. Did that tension feel difficult at times?

[Charlotte Church]

So I suppose at the beginning I loved singing and I loved music so much, and it was just so very natural to me. But then to sort of have everything handed to me on a plate in terms of, like, you know, all. Like a record deal and all of this success and travel and glamour and all of that, I didn't have a chance to become ambitious or hungry. And also, what was really wonderful about doing the music that I did then was that I was constantly getting to sing with orchestras all over the world. I was like, yeah, wherever I was going, I would be singing with the National State Orchestra of Pennsylvania or Chicago or wherever I was. So that's a wonderful thing to be held in that sonic sphere as a vocalist. As a singer. But it. But it wasn't. It wasn't what I loved, you know, because actually, at that time, what I loved was the Spice Girls. Yes. You know, and. And Pizza on Trip.

[Elizabeth Day]

No, that's fine. That's acceptable. Mysterious girl. It's not really acceptable at all.

[Charlotte Church]

Amongst others. And then as I grew older, actually, all of the music that I loved was sort of new soul. People like d', Angelo, Angel Scott and India Ari. And so as soon as I was allowed to break away from the sort of classical crossover stuff, and all I wanted to do was go and make R and B, and the record company were like, I don't think so. That's not gonna be happening anytime soon. General record company man. And it was like my tiny little startings of writing and making my own music and exploring my own soul, and that very quickly got sort of shut down by the people that I was working with in the industry.

[Elizabeth Day]

And how would they do that? How would they shut it down? And how would they not allow you to do things?

[Charlotte Church]

Well, they would just basically say that this song was no good. I spent a long time having to rehabilitate my creative self because for a very long time, I didn't think I was creative. I didn't think I was artistic. I knew that I was talented. I knew that I could sing. But the rest of it. I just, I just thought, oh well that's not me, that's these other people who are, who play instruments and who write music and you know, all of that sort of stuff. So I've lived with a lot of doubt around my own creativity and my own capacity to write songs and create music. And then in my 20s when I met my now husband, I started writing music with him. And so then I was starting to write some really fucking weird stuff which was sort of like pro R and B folk, polyphonic, I mean just like all over the shop. Very experimental music. But then because I'd been so badly wounded by the industry, I wanted nothing to do with the industry anymore. And so I self released it, self funded it all and that was really difficult as well. You know, then that's a whole area of the business. I'm like, oh God, I don't know any of this stuff. How do we do all of this? And so now I feel like I'm finally at a place I've been working for the last year on music that is feeling just so free and golden and just like easeful and juicy.

[Elizabeth Day]

That's so beautiful to hear. And I wonder if you feel that your singing is now in alignment with your purpose.

[Charlotte Church]

Interesting. Yes. I think that in a way my singing, because I had such a deep, genuine love for it and because it was before I had a chance to become like affected, you know, like lots of singers have sort of affectations in their voice and it's very stylized and not that that's a bad thing, you know, some of the best singers in the world are very sort of stylized. But my voice was always very like right from the center of my being.

[Elizabeth Day]

And do you now believe inside that you are creative? Have you worked on that piece of self worth?

[Charlotte Church]

Yes, absolutely. And I think that it really came from outside of music. So I think when I started to really go, hang on a minute, I am creative, I could do this was actually creating the dreaming because again it was so out of my sphere and frame of reference. And every time people would come in and look at the interiors and every time people have gone through the experience as well, that I have spent like meticulous time, love, energy, detail in curating and making it exactly as I want it to be. People are like, wow, this is like so incredibly creative and thought about and these interiors and I feel so held and this, that and the other. And I'm like, so that was the thing, the thing that really first started to make me accept and realize that I was a creative being and I was a creative person and that very quickly then has gone straight back into music.

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[Charlotte Church]

Talk to me a little.

[Elizabeth Day]

Bit about the music industry as you experienced it. I mean you were very funny when you did that impression of the, the standard man in the music industry. But I imagine it was such a specific time, you know, and you became famous age 12 from a TV phone in and then you're pitched into this industry that is incredibly male dominated at the time that you were in it. What were your experiences like? How do you feel about it now?

[Charlotte Church]

They were terrible. There's no two ways about it. I was not looked after, I was not nurtured. I was just totally exploited. Like I was a commodity and the industry was incredibly razor sharp. And you know, even from having like I had 40% of my earnings taken from me by my manager at the time. So even stuff like that, even stuff like the deals that I got into and that my parents signed on my behalf, but they were also totally green and naive. So we got massively taken advantage of without a shadow of a doubt. And you know, I've made my peace with it now because, you know, I understand the wider context. You know, I'm a deeply politicized person and so I'm not looking at myself from a victim mindset in terms of like, oh poor me, this thing happened to me. I'VE sort of worked through a lot of that stuff. And I can understand the soil in which I was growing. And that soil was full of shit.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yeah.

[Charlotte Church]

Actually full of shit. Wouldn't be too bad, wouldn't it?

[Elizabeth Day]

Full of chemical.

[Charlotte Church]

No worms is great. Full of terrible chemical compounds of which shouldn't have been there and were strangling lots of young women at that time.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yeah. What advice would you give to your pre fame self?

[Charlotte Church]

I would say, I mean, it's almost impossible. Just hold steady and actually, I'm really proud when I look back, you know, and I sort of do inner child work and I look back at my little self. I'm really proud of her. I'm really proud of the poise that she. That she showed and the. And the bravery and the. And the calm in the storm. There was like a. And I feel it still. I'm quite lucky to have a sort of quite calm center. And I think that I've always had it my whole life. But I think that really kicked in because, you know, when things started to get really heightened and even things like before a big show, so, you know, I'd be doing the Olympics or, you know, George Bush's inauguration, like insane world events, and my mother would be there, like, flapping, breathing, like, so nervous for me. And I would just be like, just super chilled because I had to be. But that also, I think, then helped me cultivate a sense of calm in.

[Elizabeth Day]

My life and a sense of self, because it feels like. I mean, I don't know you, although I feel like I know you, which must be the weird thing about fame. But it feels from my perspective, as though you haven't change. Your essence is not altered.

[Charlotte Church]

Yeah, totally. And I want, you know, I think that's probably the same for everybody in a way that we are with, you know, within us is that that's that same soul essence that has been with us since conception and that has absolutely grown in complexity and beauty and shadow and all of it, but is essentially the same person. You've got three children.

[Elizabeth Day]

I wonder if any of them want to be famous.

[Charlotte Church]

I mean, they don't want to be famous necessarily. I mean, it is funny sometimes when they're like, can we get on your Instagram or. And I'm like, absolutely not. I'm very protective, very lioness about, you know, as much as I possibly can, keeping them out of the limelight just because I know. I know what it means to not consent, I suppose. And so I want to make sure that if that is something that they choose for themselves that it is something that they have as much capacity and wherewithal to consent to. But they're both interested in lots of artistic things. My son does a lot of acting and my daughter does acting and singing. And she's set for world domination. She's studying power dynamics currently in the Western world. She's built herself a curriculum. She's amazing.

[Elizabeth Day]

And I imagine with a mother who has this protective force and this knowledge, I mean, they're going to fly. Your second failure. It's a big one.

[Charlotte Church]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Day]

Is your failure to totally strip the patriarchal and colonialist conditioning out of my person. Yes. I mean, and I feel like you're amongst friends here.

[Charlotte Church]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Day]

Because we can prompt all relate to that, I'm guessing.

[Charlotte Church]

Yes, absolutely. I think that it is a lifelong job, really. I thought that I was doing pretty well in those terms of. Particularly in the patriarchal terms. Maybe not so much in the colonialism and really looking at where colonialism was still alive and well in my own life and psyche, but particularly in terms of the sort of patriarchal stuff I thought that I was. I had done a lot of sort of self work. I'd done a lot of understanding the broader context of society and how what patriarchy was doing to both men and women in our society. And then I got these tattoos. They're aquatic coral water snakes. And I saw them in a meditation and they wanted a symbol on my body. And how it started at the beginning. The symbol was about making my body as strong as my spirit. That actually. And they would be a reminder of the discipline that it took to be able to wind tight and be intense and whatever else I needed to be. Oh. And then unwind and be super relaxed. So that's what I thought I was getting them for. But as soon as I had them, as soon as they were on my body, it was like where I was still allowing patriarchal constraints in my life. I could just see it all, like. And my whole body was, like, reactive to the ways in which I was still allowing sort of patriarchal oppression in my life. And whether that was from men, whether it was from women, whether it was from others, whether it was from myself. And that was a really interesting byproduct of these tattoos that I was really not expecting. I mean, however, they were also. They're the symbol of Lilith. Lilith being the first woman I'm obsessed with.

[Elizabeth Day]

Lilith.

[Charlotte Church]

Yeah, she's great.

[Stephanie Van Bismarck]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

Adam's first wife who refused to bear his children.

[Charlotte Church]

I think she refused to lay under Adam. And so then God banished her from the Garden of Eden, and then he condemned half of all of her children to die. But, yes, her symbol is holding two snakes. So in a way, I suppose it does make sense in the Lilith version.

[Elizabeth Day]

What does patriarchy mean to you is.

[Charlotte Church]

The dominance and oppression that has been shown towards the feminine and towards children and nature, this idea of dominance and control. And I think it is so, so deep in our subconscious and in our psyche. What I'm really passionate about is maybe trying to find ways in which to talk about it where we're not utilizing always the same language, where we're not always talking about toxic masculinity, and we're not talking, you know, and we're talking in other ways where we can bring men back in. That is my overriding sense, is that patriarchy is fucking terrible news for all of us. And, of course, the sisterhood must remain strong and connected to each other in order that we can protect each other from the excesses and the violence, because it does manifest in violence and rapes and domestic violence. And there's a lot of femicide going on in the world right now and a lot of repealing of a lot of women's rights. But I think that underneath all of that, we must also look to what is going on for men and how isolating and how isolated men are currently. Much like a lot of us, you know, the mental health epidemics are going on in all areas of society. But I see and I'm praying and dreaming in a world where everybody can start to feel what balance truly feels like. Because I think at the moment, as women are rising and women are feeling stronger in society, that is making a lot of men feel, like, threatened and feel like they're in the minority, when really it's just that they're so used to imbalance. It's difficult, because part of me wants to say if we can be gentle with it, you know, if we can be as loving and caring in this transition, in this change as we possibly can, to bring everybody who is struggling or conservative or traditional or along with us. But then again, there is this sort of glaring blaring alarm in the background that's like, time's up, guys.

[Jonathan Van Ness]

Come on.

[Elizabeth Day]

I think you've expressed that so brilliantly, and I think there is so much power to be had in compassion and in the solidarity that comes through vulnerability, which is really a lot of what this podcast is about. And I think you're also touching on the point that those values or qualities have traditionally, wrongly been seen as Somehow feminine.

[Charlotte Church]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

And patriarchy traps us in believing that that is weakness. Yeah. And it's weak for a man, therefore, to admit vulnerability. This. And it brings all this misbehavior face, shame. And I think that there are two things going on. One is if you're still lucky enough to be born into a world made in your image, and if you are a straight white man, you kind of are, Then you're less likely to think of a failure as a verdict on your character. You think of it as an overcomeable obstacle on your path to success, to guarantee success. But I think the other thing that's going on is that idea that to admit to calling something a failure, patriarchy tells you that that's weakness.

[Charlotte Church]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

And that's changing a lot alongside the kind of alarm bells and what's going.

[Charlotte Church]

On in America within the sisterhood. Like, we. We have these mycelial networks of interdependent relationships and which. Which enable us to be in almost constant communication. The ways in which men have lost. Lost the community of men and the brotherhoods is much more serious and much more isolating than the ways in which women have. And so I think that often there's just not the sounding board there for men to even talk about what failure is or could mean or how that looks or whether something might have been to even have those conversations. And I know we're making generalizations here, and there are thousands and millions of, you know, men and sons and uncles and friends who are engaged in brilliant dialogue about their lives. But I suppose, you know, when we're talking about generationally or within, you know, the broader societal context of what feels like a total breakdown of society, then I think that really we have to, or at least I really want to start to turn my attention and my efforts to nurturing men within a balance that helps them feel not so threatened, because I think that this polarization is going to get us into some really, really bad situations. And so there has to be forgiveness and there has to be compassion and there has to be. I love the book. Conflict is Not Abuse. So there has to be this idea of being able to sit. Sit with people in really awkward, difficult conversations and situations where you are essentially reaching out your love and your empathy and your understanding and doing a bit of eye gazing. Very, very simple, but so powerful.

[Elizabeth Day]

Well, I think it's incredibly generous of you to want to express, extend that nurture, given what you experienced at points when you were incredibly famous at the hands of men, but also of patriarchy. And I just wonder if we could chat a bit about that and how that's informed you. We've touched on the music industry, but we haven't really explored sort of how demeaning and sexualized some of that might have been for you as a teenager.

[Charlotte Church]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was really extreme, you know, really extreme to be constantly made a figure of, fun, of fodder, not taken at all seriously in any way in my art, in my thoughts, in what I had to say. But then also being betrayed on a very personal level by my first boyfriends, the first men I had sex with, with, and you know, them all, selling stories and making a lot of money. And that being a deeply, deeply wounding, shameful thing to happen. And then also witnessing my mother going through that and being like absolutely torn apart by the media and blackmailed at the hands of the media to the point where, you know, she tried to take her own life and it's massively affected her mental health ever since. So, you know, the women in my family have had their fair share. And then also I also reflect on the idea of just to bring a bit of the colonialism into it. And don't get me wrong, like this is nothing, not a patch on the colonialism that is, you know, has been seen throughout the world. But in terms of my own specific experience of it, when I've looked back on those newspaper articles and such, so many of them talk about me being Welsh in a way that was really also very demeaning. And it's a subtle one, but it's definitely there. It's definitely present all of those things together. And then of course, in terms of more broadly colonialism and not being able to strip colonialism out of my person entirely, I think that is the deepest work of our time for us collectively. And I think that the deepest wound that colonialism leaves is separation. Separation from self, separation from our relationships, our interdependent relationships with each other, separation from the land, separation from our ancestors and our idea of this sort of spiritual continuation. Yeah, I am deeply involved now in decolonial work, really trying to educate myself as much as I possibly can, you know, of where the oppressor within my own psyche still lies. Because so much of this stuff starts with us. Where is the colonialist, patriarchal oppressor within your own life, no matter what gender you are?

[Elizabeth Day]

And so much of it is hidden and insidious. And this is my ham fisted link to asking you about something that I read that I can't quite believe, but I'm sure is true, that the tabloid press hacked the phone of your family priest, Father Richard.

[Charlotte Church]

Yeah. So they hacked Father Richard's phone. I mean, it was literally everybody who knew us in Cardiff. It was all of my teenage friends. It was like my teenage friends, Nana. I mean, it was just like. It was crazy. Like, when the police first came to us with the Leveson inquiry and such, we were one of the first families they came to because our names appeared so regularly on all of the private investigators list. So we were particularly targeted. Even dear old Father Richard. Poor old Father Richard.

[Elizabeth Day]

Poor you. Have you forgiven?

[Charlotte Church]

Have I forgiven? Not quite. Okay. I gotta keep a little bit of that flame, that fire.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yeah.

[Charlotte Church]

That fierceness alive. Just tend the rage somewhere.

[Elizabeth Day]

Oh, my gosh, Charlotte, I love that phrase. And I want it on a T shirt.

[Charlotte Church]

Tend the rage.

[Elizabeth Day]

Tend the rage.

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[Elizabeth Day]

And it brings us on to your third failure, which is. I love this. We've never had this before. Failure to be a wild woman. Tell us about this one.

[Charlotte Church]

So the wild woman's an archetype, you know, she's outside all the time. She is so deeply embedded in the world, in the shadow, in all of it, you know, in all of the feral, primal. She's sexual. She's like. She's desire itself. She is pure creativity. She's. Yeah, she's lush, you know, in so many ways, I think that, you know, I talk a good game. You know, I've been in the public eye for such a long time. Lots of people feel like they know me. But, you know, the truth of it is I've still got such a long way to go, as do we all. And it's never done, you know, this sort of. This evolution of self. But, yeah, I feel really confined. I feel really not free. I'm doing my own fucking head in. In so many areas of my life where I'm still, like, in these traps, in these patterns and traps of behavior. And I'm so, like. She's so tantalizingly close, the wild woman. The woman who can just, you know, leave all of the tech and just have her hands in the soil from, you know, dawn till dusk. So she is who I am really wanting to move towards in my life. But there's just. There's so much to get through. There's so much to work through. And I think the other thing that I'm learning as well, because I've been, you know, really focused on this healing and this spiritual path. I think that we can often. And I certainly have fallen into the trap of just constantly doing the work. You know, you're just constantly in the shit of it all. And actually we need to be able to circle in and out of it, you know, go in for periods of time and understand what it is, who we are, you know, have a. Have some realizations go through. And also, it's not just like our own personal realizations. Like, life just comes and absolutely smacks us in the face with stuff, whether it's a grief, a loss, all sorts of different things that can happen in our lives that make us advance somewhat. Even as painful as it is, but that is what makes us advance, is suffering. So, yeah, what I'm still failing at on a daily basis is to break free of these shackles, of the confines of my mind. Modern life, bad habits, all of it.

[Miu Miu Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Charlotte Church]

And that's annoying.

[Elizabeth Day]

I can relate. Because the wild woman, for me, one of the things that I find so aspirational about her is that she doesn't give a fuck what other people think.

[Charlotte Church]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

Now, where are you on that journey? Do you care what other people think?

[Charlotte Church]

I care about what certain people think. I really don't give a fuck what a lot of people think. But really, they're the people that I am, not that I don't feel like. Well, even still, I was going to say they're the people that I don't feel like are in my tribe. So generally that would be like, fascists. I don't give a fuck what fascists think.

[Elizabeth Day]

That's fair enough.

[Charlotte Church]

Yes. However, there is a bit of me that's like, yeah, but you do give a fuck what fascists think because you.

[Elizabeth Day]

Want to try and reach them in a way.

[Charlotte Church]

Yeah, absolutely. Because it's like, you know, what else are we supposed to do in this age of polarity than to be a bridge? So in a way, I suppose I do give a fuck what fascists think and. Well, actually, we should all give loads of a fuck what fascists think because they got all the fucking power right now. But do you?

[Elizabeth Day]

Because you speak so truthfully and there's a certain courage to that. And when you go on this morning and Alison Hammond can't keep a straight face when you're doing a sound bath, does that bother you?

[Charlotte Church]

Oh, that pissed me right off.

[Stephanie Van Bismarck]

Did it?

[Charlotte Church]

That pissed me right off.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yeah, I felt for you.

[Charlotte Church]

Yeah. I mean, yeah, I've met Alison Hammond a number of times and she's a wonderful woman. I think that part of it was. It was a misjudgment on my part to go, let's do a five minute sound bath on national tv. That makes loads of sense. Yeah, let's go for it. So I think it was a misjudgment on my part, but I think that what annoyed me more than anything else was then, was that then I'm given the opportunity to display and demonstrate and represent somewhat this amazing art of sound healing or sound ceremony or however people want to describe it. And then it's made a figure of fun then that really did actually touch quite a deep wound for me. I was like, I really like you, Alison, but fuck you. Yes.

[Elizabeth Day]

Because it reminds you of all those other times that you felt you were made fun of.

[Charlotte Church]

Yeah, totally. So. And I'm in this dance with celebrity, which is where I probably shouldn't say this. My daughter's always saying that I say too much and that I'm too honest and that I need to keep some stuff back and be like a bit more of a diplomat about things.

[Elizabeth Day]

I mean, you're safe here, is what I want to say that I don't. I am really enjoying your openness.

[Charlotte Church]

Yeah. But, yeah, I think that there is. There's an element of. I came away from the spotlight and from fame and from the excesses of. Of it all and I have to sort of rehabilitate some more. And then. And then. But then I'm like, oh, okay. Well, I'm going to have no platform now for the things that I really care about and the things that I do want to change and the changes that I do want to see in the world and any influence that I do have. So I'm constantly in this dance of pushing it, being radical, coming back, doing something that's very mainstream, you know, so that is a thought process for me of pushing it as far as I can and being as radical as I can, not just for radicalness's sake, but just because that is genuinely who I am and how I feel, but then also having to go, oh, God, I'm gonna get cancelled. And. Yeah. And so then just being in this sort of dance of power, I suppose, and influence.

[Elizabeth Day]

Well, I love your Lilith qualities. I really admire the way that you turned your rage and that you are so honest and truthful with your journey. And I think it makes us feel included and invited. And I said to you before we came on stage that everyone that I've spoken to who knew I was interviewing you without a fault said, oh, my gosh, her retreat looks amazing. I really want to go.

[Charlotte Church]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Day]

And so I actually think you're doing something very powerful and very necessary. But for now, I would really like you all to say the biggest, most rousing, most feminine, powerful thank you to the amazing Charlotte Church.

[Charlotte Church]

Thank you.

[Elizabeth Day]

I wanted to mention our subscriber podcast Failing with Friends, where my guest and I answer your questions and. And we offer advice on some of your failures too.

[Charlotte Church]

That completely uncontrollable, ferocious grief gave me such a joy, such a connection with nature.

[Elizabeth Day]

Please do follow how to Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever.

[Charlotte Church]

You get your podcasts.

[Elizabeth Day]

Please tell all your friends this is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.

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[Charlotte Church]

Is that guy with the binoculars watching us?

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