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Denise Welch - I Got Sober For Love

How To Fail With Elizabeth Day

Wed Oct 22 2025

Summary

Podcast Summary: How To Fail With Elizabeth Day

Episode: Denise Welch – I Got Sober For Love
Date: October 22, 2025
Host: Elizabeth Day
Guest: Denise Welch

Overview

In this deeply honest and engaging episode, Elizabeth Day is joined by actor and mental health advocate Denise Welch. The conversation centers on Denise's life, marked by professional success and personal challenges, notably her mental health struggles, addiction, motherhood, and finding love and sobriety later in life. True to the podcast’s premise, Denise reflects on failures—personal, professional, and societal—and the lessons, resilience, and joy she has found through them. Their discussion is heartfelt, humorous, and unflinching in examining stigma, shame, and hope.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Denise’s Outspokenness and “Hun” Status

[03:57–06:29]

Denise discusses embracing her reputation for directness and why, despite being a people pleaser privately, she’s unafraid to voice her beliefs publicly, especially on platforms like Loose Women.

"If I think I'm right about something, I don't care what people think of me.” (Denise, 04:18)
The two explore “Hun culture,” social media, and Denise’s delight at being at the “cool” wedding of Charli XCX and George.

Motherhood and The 1975

[06:40–10:11]

Denise fondly recalls her son Matty Healy (lead singer of The 1975) starting the band at their home, the chaos and pride of that time, and what it’s like now to see him on stage in sold-out arenas.
She describes the emotional side of parenthood and the unique “guest list stress” that comes with having a famous child.

“Sometimes when there's 20,000 people... I want to scream, you're all here because of me. 42 hours of labour, pushing him out. Thank you.” (Denise, 09:13)

Failure 1: Not Becoming a 'Domestic Goddess'

[10:27–15:48]

Denise admits she's never succeeded at being the image of a traditional domestic hostess and pokes fun at her low bar for domesticity (“maybe cleaning the kitchen and wiping the benches”).
She reflects on generational expectations, her late ADHD diagnosis, and relates her “failure” to lessons of self-acceptance.

“I'm what Lincoln calls a sloth... I can sloth out for nine hours at a time and possibly not even go to the toilet.” (Denise, 12:04)
Denise and Elizabeth discuss dissolving the myth that a marriage ending equals failure:

“I refuse to think of it as a failure because we have two wonderful children that came out of that.” (Denise, 13:58)

ADHD and Its Overlap With Depression

[15:48–19:41]

Denise shares her late-in-life ADHD diagnosis, how it made sense of many struggles—especially alongside depression—and links between ADHD, postnatal depression, and self-medication.

"Depression had always been my illness... it’s only on my second attempt at medication ... I realized how I had completely underestimated the impact of ADHD running parallel with my depression.” (Denise, 17:04)
She acknowledges the support and perception she received from colleagues and the resonance it has for others.

“People listening to this will feel so seen and held in your words.” (Elizabeth, 19:22)

Failure 2: Not Getting Sober For Her Children Sooner

[21:05–32:21]

Denise is candid about alcoholism, self-medication, and the guilt of not having gotten sober earlier in her life.

“If someone said to me, you need to lose a limb and if you do, you will never have depression again, I would have offered both arms.” (Denise, 00:00/32:21)
She opens up about the pressures of fame (Coronation Street), the lack of mental health support at the time, and the stigma surrounding postnatal depression.
Vivid recounting of her experience with severe postnatal depression and postpartum psychosis, including a moving story about her mother’s support and her own feelings of emotional void.

“The depression was so thick, it was... I couldn’t move my hands or my mouth.” (Denise, 35:03)
Denise describes how stigma and ignorance about mental health still persist and passionately advocates for better support for new mothers.

“She Lays Down” and Family Impact

[37:28–44:46]

Elizabeth brings up her son’s song “She Lays Down,” which Matty Healy wrote about Denise’s depression. Denise shares her reaction and the complexity of hearing her struggles reflected in his art.

“Depression is always described so wrongly... as extreme sadness. It couldn't be further from the truth. Depression is the inability to feel extreme sadness.” (Denise, 39:38)
On sobriety’s impact on her sons, Denise admits her regret but notes her children’s pride and support.

Failure 3: Getting Sober Without a Higher Power

[45:44–52:21]

Denise and her husband Lincoln got sober for each other, not following the traditional 12-step or higher power approach.

“To a lot of people, AA is a wonderful, necessary, important anchor. To us, each other is our anchorage... No higher power stopped me drinking. Willpower stopped me drinking.” (Denise, 50:06)
Denise is frank about her doubts with AA’s premises and emphasizes their unique approach as a couple, appreciating that this is rare.
She feels immense gratitude for her marriage and this “second act,” crediting sobriety with opening new possibilities, though not erasing depression.

Final Failure: Not Landing a 'Bonnet Drama' Lead Role & Industry Challenges

[52:57–56:47]

Denise humorously laments never starring in a period drama but finds joy and pride in her return to acting with roles in Waterloo Road and new TV projects.
She reveals how being targeted in the press and management betrayals derailed her career for a time, but expresses new confidence moving forward.

Playful Closing: Sweets and Family

[56:49–59:19]

Denise likens herself to an Opal Fruit/Starburst: “made to make your mouth water.”
She fondly recalls her drag-performer father, Raquel, and growing up in a confectionary family, ending the episode on a note of humor and familial warmth.

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

On depression's depth:

"If someone said to me, you need to lose a limb and if you do, you will never have depression again, I would have offered both arms like that. To be honest, I still would." (Denise, 00:00/32:21)
On breaking generational gender roles:

"My mum, she wasn't the best cook... but she didn't really do guilt, my mum, if she felt she was right about something." (Denise, 13:07)
On her marriage ending:

"I refuse to think of it as a failure because we have two wonderful children that came out of that." (Denise, 13:58)
On her drinking and impact on her kids:

“My behaviors did impact on him. Of course they fucking did. So grow up and accept it.” (Denise, 44:41)
On sobriety and marriage:

“My marriage is the bedrock of my life. If my marriage is good, everything else works for me. Giving up alcohol didn’t cure my depression, but it stopped compounding it.” (Denise, 50:06)
On her father as a drag act:

“Our surname is Welsh, my dad went out as Raquel... I was taken to the Black Cap at Camden Town to watch the drag reviews." (Denise, 57:49)

Timeline of Important Segments

[03:57] Introduction – Denise’s reputation, authenticity, Hun status
[06:40] Motherhood anecdotes, The 1975 origins
[10:27] Failure 1: Domestic goddess myth and redefining womanhood
[15:48] ADHD diagnosis and mental health intersections
[21:05] Failure 2: Struggling with addiction, mental illness, and motherhood
[25:03] Raw recounting of postnatal depression and psychosis
[37:28] “She Lays Down” – reflections on her son’s song and depression’s true nature
[44:41] Reckoning with her children’s perspectives and legacy of addiction
[45:44] Failure 3: Sober without higher power – unique journey with Lincoln
[52:57] Final failure: Period drama dreams, career resilience and revival
[56:49] Sweet metaphors and family anecdotes (drag act father)

Tone & Language

Conversational, honest, witty, and compassionate—Denise’s warmth, candor, and humor shine through as she tackles serious topics with vulnerability and hope. Elizabeth provides empathetic, insightful guidance throughout, celebrating Denise’s honesty and irrepressible spirit.

For Further Listening

Listeners interested in discussions about mental health, overcoming addiction, motherhood, and rebuilding after public and private failures will find this episode particularly resonant, insightful, and inspiring.

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Transcript

A (0:00)

If someone said to me, you need to lose a limb and if you do, you will never have depression again, I would have offered both arms like that. To be honest, I still would. I don't know the person that I was. Now that I'm 13 years sober, I'm 67 years old, and I'm driving along thinking, my God, I'm driving. I've actually passed my test.

B (0:21)

Hello and welcome to how to Fail. This is the podcast that believes that most failure can teach us something meaningful if we let it. And before we get into this episode and this conversation, I I would love it if you could follow and subscribe to the show because it really, really does help. So just tap that button now and I will be forever grateful.

C (0:42)

It's Jonathan Van Ness from Getting Better. With Jonathan Van Ness, it's easy to feel hopeless, but we don't have to stay there. I'm all about finding places where we can turn that energy into hope and into action. One of those places is Americans United for Separation of Church and State. Americans United or AU is this quote unquote quiet but mighty force working every day to preserve freedom without favor and equality without exception. I am so obsessed with that tagline. And let me tell you something, honey, that wall between church and state, paper thin. It's got a leak, honey. It's one of the last safeguards protecting so many of our rights. So right now, from bodily autonomy to LGBTQ + rights to the future of public schools, to me, this is about creating a world where everyone gets to live as themselves. As long as you're not harming anyone else. Now is not the time to curl up and hide. It's the time to link arms and stand together for a better future. Join Americans United for Separation of Church and State and their growing movement because church, state separation protects us all. Learn more and join the fight@au.org better. Let's go. Americans United this episode is brought to.

A (1:48)

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B (2:08)

Denise Welsh grew up in Whitley Bay in a family of confectioners. As a child, her habit of turning up to birthday parties with large bags of mixed toffees made her a popular guest. The popularity has lasted and grown into her adulthood, even if the sweets haven't. After years as a successful and Award winning actor appearing in long running soaps such as Coronation street and Waterloo Road, as well as in acclaimed theatrical productions. Welsh became a regular panelist on ITV's flagship panel chat show, Loose Women. She won Celebrity Big Brother in 2012 and after speaking openly about her own experiences with depression and addiction, is also open a mental health ambassador. She's been married three times, has two sons, one of whom is Mattie Healy, the frontman of the 1975, and is now with the contemporary artist Lincoln Townley, whom she credits with helping her get sober. But this potted biography can only go so far because there's something else about Denise too, something more intangible. It's a warmth and an ability to voice what many of us are thinking, combined with a sense of having seen it all before but never having lost her joy or sparkle. It's the knowledge that she's lived through hard times but kept her fabulousness intact. It is, in short, that she's a total Hun, as one interviewer put it, the grande dame of Hun culture. Some people won't be outspoken about something because they're so terrified. Welsh says if I think I'm right about something, I don't care what people think of me. Denise Welsh, welcome to how to Fail. Thank you.

A (6:40)

Well, that's it. I mean they. Mattie started the band at high school. He was at Wilmslow High School, which is in Cheshire. And so we'd moved down from the northeast. I used to live in London. We moved back to the northeast when I was pregnant. Then everything went tits up. That which I'm sure we'll. We'll cover and. And then Coronation street took me to Cheshire. And so when they were about 12, Mattie started the band and we had these kind of garages and sort of outbuildings and they were. So for years we had. I'd wake up in the morning and I'd be stepping over bodies and Matt would go, oh Mum, this is. This is Airship. Who were another band, you know. So I'd step over Airship to go to work. This is you and me at 6 or something. And I'd step over you and me at 6. And they started there, they would eat there. What was lovely was that because that was the hub of their band rehearsals, even though it was years before anything happened, they would. All the girlfriends came there, whereas often with boys, the boys go to the girlfriend's house and without having a daughter, it was quite nice. And then, of course, Louis, there's 12 years between my boys, same dad, 12 years in between. And then, of course, they've got this little toddler who's trying to knock on and standing longingly outside the rehearsal room, wanting to be in the band. And then when they were about 22, 23, chocolate, one of their signature songs and one of the first songs Mattie and George wrote, took off and there was no, oh, you're going to university. You know, we know a year in advance what's going to happen. They were just gone. And they were gone internationally. And then that was tough. Obviously, I had. I had a little one as well, so that kind of filled the gap, but it was. It was hard because I knew that life would never be the same. They're not going to come back at weekends and have their washing done. Well, it wouldn't have got done, but in principle, they would have brought it back.

A (21:05)

Earlier my kids would say to me but you're sober now, mum. And have been for 13 years. And I am so grateful that I found the strength and found my husband, Lincoln, and we did it together. Cause we were both in a very dark place for different reasons. And Also, we were 15 years apart. I'm 15 years older than him, you know, so I was in my late 30s when I was doing Coronation Street. And it was an incredible job. You've got to remember, it was the job that everybody wanted. And I was very lucky to be there in the iconic days, you know, when Vera and Jack were still there. I just bumped into Bill Roach the other day and Mike Baldwin and Barbara Knox and Betty Driver and Phyllis. You know, it was the proper Corrie era. But it was incredible, incredibly hard work. And I think coping with an intermittent illness, coping with a job that you couldn't just ring up and say, I can't come in. I mean, I was used to that in theater. But in Coronation street, you're working seven in the morning till seven at night. And bearing in mind in those days there was 21 million people watching an episode. You couldn't go anywhere. You were more famous than anybody. You could put any American movie star in the same supermarket as you and you'd be the one that was mobbed. That's a third of the country watching you four times a week. And you're making the equivalent of two movies, you know, in a week. Because you know how long a movie takes. And it was very hard work. And now having an actual, what we used to call a nervous breakdown, I would have been kinder to myself, but I didn't. And you think, well, if I'd had a horrendous kidney condition, if I'd had a horrendous heart condition, I would have been removed and nobody would have died. But because then, and I hope that I've played a role in changing the landscape of how we talk about it. I was one of the few people talking about it. And remember, we only had four television channels. There was, you know, there was no. I think sky was just starting. We had no social media and all of this type of way. And I would go on Lorraine. And I remember doing Lorraine from down the line at Coronation street on the cobbles, and talking about the horror of hospitalized postnatal depression. And I remember Lorraine, who I see on a weekly basis now, saying to me, we've never had as much response in any of the get up and give appeals that we've done over the years, which is always about a physical condition than we have had with you talking about mental Illness, because it was still a stigma. In some areas it still is, which is ridiculous. And I remember being sort of berated because I'd said once, I wish that. Well, they'd taken the nub of the quote and not continued it. I said, I wish that everybody in the world could experience clinical depression for 15 seconds. 15 seconds, and then it would go and never darken their door again. So that nobody would ever say, well, what have you got to be depressed about? You know, the difference between the illness and how we all. It's like we use ocd. Oh, I'm so ocd. No, you're not. People go, I know I had postnatal depression for a week after. No, you didn't. You had the baby blues. And that's all. That's all also horrible. I'm not taking that away. But with someone like me, it started after Mattie. And never. When people say, how long did your postnatal depression last? I say, well, 30, 36 years.

A (25:09)

I can. I was on the verge of postnatal depression and postpartum psychosis, so I was in and out of lucidity. I had a wonderful pregnancy. I'll try and pray to you this. So I had an incredible pregnancy. Those ones where people say, the blooming woman in pregnancy. My skin was fabulous, my hair was great. I loved being pregnant. I loved every day of being pregnant. I had a husband, we had some money in the bank. We weren't worrying about the financial aspect of having a kid. My husband was a successful actor. I knew I was in a position that if I wanted to continue work as an actress, I could. We were having a much wanted child and skippity do. And even when I was overdue, I still was thinking, oh, I love being pregnant, love being pregnant. So I was the little. Anybody ever mentioned about postnatal depression? Didn't cross my mind. So I had my baby privately. Tim was a bit of a, I say this with love, a champagne socialist. So he was a bit begrudging. But the hospital I was allocated, National Health, was just. It was a disaster. And I had him in, what I didn't know at the time was a natural childbirth hospital. I'd just gone because someone said, it's a great private hospital. So I went there and in one of the classes, they were talking about this natural childbirth. And I remember saying, yeah, obviously, if it's agony, you will give us some pain relief, won't you? And they said, oh, Mrs. Healy as I was then, Mrs. Healy. It's not the Victorian times, of course, of course. We will fast forward to Hit me over the head with a spiked fucking mallet. No pain relief. So. And Matthew, true to form, was, you know, in there listening to the radio, having a fag, thinking, I'm not hurrying, there's no rush on here. 42 hours later, natural childbirth. Not gas and air, nothing. Out he came. It was wonderful. It was just wonderful. He was the first boy. My dad was so thrown because he thought he'd have a girl, I'd have a girl. And it was all fantastic. And they said I was the most unanxious mum in the hospital. There's only probably about six other moms in there. I didn't pull the anxiety cord, nothing. Feeding him, wanted to try breastfeeding, wasn't fixated on it. My mum had been amazing. If it doesn't work, love, don't let them pressure you, you know, bottle fed, babies will be fine. So she was fantastic and got him home. And this was on the Wednesday, so I had him on the Saturday, got him home on the Wednesday, and I opened all the cards that had arrived and I dissolved into this emotional state of hormonal chaos. And I was aware that I had the baby blues, so it didn't frighten me, it was just. I couldn't open a card without crying and looking at this child and feeling this wave of huge responsibility. But I was all right, right? Two days later, my mum and dad arrived from the Northeast. And it was a moment that I had dreamt of for years. I can remember feeling devoid of feeling something I'd never felt before. Not depression, just a very void feeling that when my mum was saying, oh, my God, you know, I knew I'd love my grandchild, but I was unprepared for this overwhelming love I feel for him. I couldn't cry, I couldn't feel anything. And I went to bed that night and I had the first panic attack that I'd ever had. I wasn't thinking panic, I wasn't anxious. I just woke with the only thing I can. The sort of analogy is that you're driving along in your car and a lorry cuts you up and you think you're gonna die and. And you pull over to the lay by and you stop and your heart is racing like it's going to come out your chest, but the danger passes and eventually you calm down. It was like that, but never the danger passing. And I'd gone to bed with huge breastfeeding Bazookas. And after the panic attack, so I'm talking just hours, I had no milk and I had spaniel's ears, boobs, to put no finer point on it. I'd lost all the milk. And this community midwife came round who I'd never had before, and she was bloody awful, Elizabeth, if I'm honest with you, and I'm a huge respecter of the NHS and wonderful people in that organization. And I said. And she went, oh, that is not normal. She said that. Really. I've only ever seen that happen if a spouse dies or a parent dies, or indeed if the child dies. You're gonna have to go out and get some bottles. That's really not it now. Now, the flag that would be waving in front of them would be hormonal. This is a hormonal disaster. Something has gone seriously wrong in this woman's hormones. Obviously, there is a chemical chaos, you know, when your hormones are righting themselves. But nobody knew anything. Tim went out and they got the bottles and they brought them back. And there was the Milton with the bottles in at the top. And we had this long kitchen. And to this day, if I smell the perfume that my mum wore, because she came down for three days and had to take leave of work as a psychiatric nurse, she had to take leave of work to look after me. And if I smell the perfume that she was wearing, which was Yvoir de Balmain, it will. Or if I smell Milton in someone's house. So that was maybe the Thursday, Friday. On the Saturday, Mum said, let's take him out for a walk. And I wasn't depressed, I just was odd. And we went for a walk in Crouch End in London, and I'd lived there for 10 years, so it was somewhere I knew very, very well. And on the way back from this coffee, we went into a corner shop to get some milk. And on the radio it was announcing the horrible Hillsborough disaster, April 15, 1989. And I came out the shop and I remember saying to Mum, there's been this awful disaster. 96 people have been crushed and died. It's terrible. And we got half a mile home and Mum asked me a question about it, and I remember saying, that was a dream. And she said, no, no, sweetheart, you just told. And I said, oh, my God, why are you trying to make me go mad? That was a dream. I dreamt it. And my mum thought, oh, okay, this is not good. We got in the house and my mum said that she walked out of the bedroom and I was on the Windowsill, trying to open the window. Now, the press picked that up, as if I was trying to take my own life. I wasn't. I didn't know where I was or what I was doing. So there was no conscious decision to do that. And I then just spent three months pretty much in the corner of a sofa wanting someone to give me an injection. And my mum was so brilliant and she knew that keeping the contact with my child was really important. So every four hours she would make me walk to the bottles, make the bottle, which was like she'd said, go and climb Everest. And I would make the bottle and I would feed him. And I had no bad feelings towards this child. I just had, why have I got this child? And then the blackness started and it was like it started from my feet and rolled up like a blanket. And it meant that the depression was so thick, it was, it was so thick that I couldn't move my hands or my mouth. And so when you then have an illness where people say, you've got to snap out of it, you know, you've got a beautiful baby who's healthy, you've got an amazing family, people have got no idea, you know. So all I've tried to do in my kind of mental health advocacy role, unelected, but, you know, that's what I felt I should do, is just try and explain to people that this is an illness which is as serious as any other illness. You just can't, you just can't see it. And there's not enough, there's not enough help for women who are going through that because not everybody is lucky enough to have the family that I had. So when I read a headline about someone who has recently had children and they've taken their own life, I completely understand it. And these headlines are, how selfish, how utterly selfish. No, it's not fucking selfish, it's desperate because you think that you are just a drain on everybody else's life is how you feel. And that, of course, led to the rocky road of self medication, which when you are so desperate, you would do anything. If someone said to me, and again, you'll get the flak going, that's so disrespectful to people who've had to have that done. If someone said to me, you need to lose a limb, and if you do, you will never have depression again, I would have offered both arms like that, to be honest, I still would. You would never say to a person, so say, for example, when my mum had cancer, she lived so brilliantly and courageously with cancer for 20 years. And most of that time she didn't look poorly. You wouldn't say to my mum, annie, we know you've got cancer, but you've been in bed for what, a month now. Get up, get some trainers on, show everybody that you've got a bit more about you and get on with you. Wouldn't say that to somebody, but I would have that said to me every single week of life, you know, but. But I will add that living with a mental illness, the times in between and how I've managed it with help, I still consider that I've had a wonderful, a wonderful life and I still do have huge lengths of time of great joy. Great joy for me is feeling normal. It's not being frightened of the mornings. Because with a depressive, you are frightened of the mornings a lot of the time because you have no idea what the morning's gonna bring. So when I wake up and it's about 11 o' clock before I think, oh, I'm all right, that's a really good day.

A (38:11)

I. He didn't tell me that he was writing it. And because he probably knows that I would have said, what you gonna say? What are you gonna say? Why did you say that? You know, because when you've got a child who's a as well, I would be like this outside his door when he was playing guitar in his teens, thinking, oh, my God, is he going to sing about his scarred childhood? Let me have a listen. And it wasn't until it came out. And in fact, the first time I heard it, I saw. I rely on social media to know sometimes where my children are, you know, like, where, where is he now when he's on tour or he's in Denver. And I remember my. My Twitter feed going wild at some point. It said that Mattie had burst into tears on stage and found it hard to continue. So of course my heart goes like that. And it was. He'd sang she lays down about my depression. So the she lays down is because when he was old enough, obviously when they were children, when he was a child, Mummy would just be in bed, not well, and Daddy would protect them from that. They didn't need to, didn't want to understand mental illness as much as they did when they were older. But when both of them subsequently were at an age when they could understand, I would explain to Matthew that I would lie down next to him and pray to be able to love my child with the love that I had felt when I had him. Cause it wasn't that I wished any harm on him or had any negative feelings towards him like some poor women do. I just couldn't feel anything. And I think the thing with depression is that people don't understand. It's always described so wrongly in everything I read about it as extreme sadness. It couldn't be further from the truth. Elizabeth Extreme sadness is what I felt when my mom and dad died. It's what you feel when something makes you extremely sad. Depression is the inability to feel extreme sadness. You can't feel happiness, sadness, nothing. It depresses everything about your life. So if someone knocked at the door and said, you've won 18 million on the lottery or whatever, or your whole family have been wiped out in an aircraft disaster, nothing. And that's when you read the tragic headlines. And so I said, I used to lie down. And he said, and I told him again years later, when he was a grown up, when he was a tot, like eight one year to 18 months. His dad was doing a series in Australia called Boys from the Bush and I felt so awful, so I flew to Australia and surprised Tim. And I got so poorly the night before I went. And I remember thinking on the plane, I just wish it would go down. When these quotes are taken out of context, you can see how I've been plagued with, you know, press that have taken stuff out of context. It's because you will do anything to stop the pain. And you think if it's taken out of my hands because I won't be able to be, you know, all of this. But, you know, Mattie has had his own. I don't really try not to talk too much about my kids because apart from that, I love them and I'm so proud of them because it's not fair. But I think I can say, you know, Matthew has had his own dealings with the. With a tendency to the dark side. And if you listen to the lyrics of his songs, you can hear that. So that is his version of what I told him when he was older.

A (41:49)

I was gonna say about the failing to get sober quicker. I think my drinking and using. Not so much with Louis, because Louis was nine when Lincoln and I got sober. He's never ever seen Lincoln have a drink. He doesn't remember Mum having a drink. And I'd also like to point out to the viewers and listeners that I wasn't the kind of alcoholic that woke up in the morning and pretended to get the fruit juice out and was doing this with a vodka bottle from under the sofa. If I drank in the morning, that was because I was still drinking from the night before and I was still holding down a job. I don't believe there is such a thing as a functioning alcoholic, because you physically going to work, but you're functioning on about 10% of your capability. But was I staggering around the West End during the day, living on the streets? No, I wasn't. I was also going home and bringing up, you know, two children. But I wish that I could have found the strength to not rely on those things earlier, but I couldn't. And it was like I was living two separate lives. I was at home in the Northeast at this point, where the family home was, and then I would be in London and I'd be away, and obviously I'd always made sure that everything was sorted and looked after. But then many years later, when. When Mattie would tell me something that had impacted him from my Drinking days. I would get incredibly defensive and it would be like, oh, you know, oh, yes, what a terrible childhood. Oh, yes. We just let you all be in the garage. We paid for everything. We bought you the first van, da, da da defense because I couldn't bear it. And then I had to have a real. In an irreligious, come to Jesus talk with myself. And to think my behaviors did impact on him. Of course they fucking did. So grow up and accept that you're not, you know, there's no way ever that either of my children have ever done the old, you know, we're scarred because of you or whatever. But obviously, if your mum is. And the household was crazy, what Matthew's also said before is, but if you hadn't been a bit rock and roll, I wouldn't be the person that I was. So there is balance to that, to the, you know, what Louis might say, considerably boring household, you know, with the most exciting thing was having, you know, two crumpets as opposed to one, which is how my nighttimes are now.

A (45:59)

Well, him first. I gave him an ultimatum first. So we'd got together at a nightclub. We were both. We didn't go, hi, I'm Denise, I'm an alcoholic. It didn't start like that. I was a party animal. He was a party animal. Lincoln is now an internationally successful contemporary artist, as you kindly said in the introduction. But when I met him, he was the PR and marketing manager of Stringfellows. So he was living an incredible nocturnal life. And so we. My marriage was over. Tim and I had both decided that it was mutually. But the press didn't know that it was. I was hacked for many, many, many years in quite a well known hacking case where they put bugs in my hotel room as well as just hac. I was really, really targeted. And at the time, when you don't know, you don't trust anybody because you had no idea that you were being hacked. And so it was a very, very hard time for me that every single thing I did was out there in the papers. So when the press discovered we'd broken up, I was kind of forced, not by Loose Women, but by my hand, was forced to announce publicly that we'd broken up when I wasn't ready to really. And of course I was the flippity jibbet and I was the one having the affair and everything. Cause that's the narrative they wanted and. And I just had to suck it up, I suppose. And then we realized that we were getting very, very fond of each other. And the one time that we argued that was ruining everything was when we drank. And I saw a side of him one night that I didn't like. Not a physical side or anything, but a side that I didn't like. And I gave him an ultimatum and he gave up drinking the next day. He was so frightened of losing me. And I was doing a tour of Steel Magnolias, the wonderful play with Sherry Lungi and Isla Blair. And I didn't think therefore that I had as much of a problem because I could only have a couple of beers after the show and blah, blah, blah. Anyway, fast forward to this one night and I woke up the next morning and I had no recollection of the night before. I was on the front of the Evening Standard, screaming and shouting in the street. And Lincoln said, I'm going to come and pick you up from work tonight and I don't want you to say anything, I just want to talk. Let me do the talking. And he picked me up at Richmond Theatre, drove me all the way back to his little diddy flat in Kensington he had at the time. And basically he said, it's going to be so hard for me because I don't know who you're going to be when you Walk in the door. And I just thought, I can't do that to him. I'm going to lose him. And that was April 18, 13 years ago. Not very good at maths and I've never had a drink since.