Erin Doherty - ‘Lean Into Your Truth’

Summary

Podcast Summary: "How To Fail with Elizabeth Day – Erin Doherty: 'Lean Into Your Truth'"

Date: March 12, 2025
Host: Elizabeth Day
Guest: Erin Doherty (Actor - The Crown, Chloe, A Thousand Blows)
Production: Elizabeth Day & Sony Music Entertainment

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Episode Overview

In this intimate and insightful episode, Elizabeth Day sits down with actor Erin Doherty to explore the failures that have shaped her path. Together, they delve into Erin's journey from aspiring footballer to acclaimed stage and screen performer, unpacking lessons learned through rejection, evolving friendships, and personal identity. With humor, vulnerability, and wisdom, Erin reflects on the interconnectedness of creativity, relationships, and staying true to oneself—even, or especially, when failing.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Nature of Acting and Self-Expression

• Escapism & Confidence:
  Erin describes acting as a lifeboat, allowing her to channel complex feelings and overcome social anxiety:

  "For me, it's 100% a form of escapism. There's something really freeing about portraying someone else... If that wasn't there, I think I would just—I don't know how I'd get it out. So yeah, it's always kind of been a lifeboat for me in that sense." (04:43, Erin Doherty)

• Learning from Roles:
  Each character becomes a mirror, offering life lessons and self-discovery:

  "...once you've embodied someone for a year sometimes...they stay with you and you get to really learn things from them...it's a really gorgeous opportunity to just try things." (05:23, Erin Doherty)

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2. Key Roles and Their Life Lessons

• Mary Carr in 'A Thousand Blows'
  Erin relished playing such a grounded, real character, exploring historical female criminality and drawing psychological depth from limited sources:

  "...knowing that I could be this woman who, on the page, she's so grounded and just earthy—I'd give my right arm to play someone like that." (07:29, Erin Doherty)

• Princess Anne in 'The Crown'
  This role taught Erin the value of unvarnished honesty:

  "What she gave me was this kind of resilience at just needing to be honest...she wouldn't compromise...particularly as a woman, I found that really empowering." (08:40, Erin Doherty)

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3. Personal Reflections on Failure

First Failure: Musical Theatre and Drama School Auditions

• On Early Rejection:
  Multiple failed auditions led to heartbreak but ultimately clarified Erin’s path:

  "I didn't get in anywhere...it was still really heartbreaking because someone's telling you no." (14:36, Erin Doherty)

• Resilience and Drive:
  Perseverance was rooted in having "no other option":

  "...It's nothing to do with, I will be successful at this thing. I just don't know how I get to—I'm gonna live my life without this as a part of who I am...So I'll just keep going." (16:19, Erin Doherty)

• Rejection as a Teacher:
  Erin reframes rejection as necessary fuel:

  "...I've learned to really love rejection and really use it as a positive thing. When someone says no, you have to lean in times ten." (17:07, Erin Doherty)

[Failure Segment Starts: 14:20]

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Second Failure: Keeping Friends

• Transient Friendships:
  Erin talks candidly about her struggle to maintain long-term friendships, often feeling like an outsider or "perfectionist" who avoids labeling relationships to escape pressure:

  "I'm a perfectionist. I hate the idea of being a really awful friend, so I'll just be the person you can meet for coffee every now and then." (24:19, Erin Doherty)

• Different Metrics for Friendship:
  Elizabeth and Erin discuss generosity of spirit and that true connection can exist without constant contact:

  "For me, in friendship...the most important metric I look for...is generosity of spirit. We don't have to talk often, but we hit relational depth quickly." (25:35, Elizabeth Day)

• Romantic vs. Platonic Attachment:
  Erin’s experience with love is "all in," yet friendships are looser and more forgiving of distance:

  "Romantic wise, I'm all in. Like, it's everything to me. But at the same time, I have to really, really work on that idea of people can come and go..." (27:22, Erin Doherty)

[Second Failure Segment Starts: 22:29]

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Third Failure: Big Social Gatherings

• Social Anxiety:
  Erin confides how large groups overwhelm her, preferring intense one-on-one interactions:

  "I'm awful, awful at [big gatherings]... I love one on one. That's my thing...I crave that kind of communication. You never get them in big social gatherings." (39:09, Erin Doherty)

• Connection through Art:
  Paradoxically, performing on stage or screen feels less exhausting than mingling at parties:

  "...if you've done your job correctly, people will watch this thing and they'll connect...but I'm not as exhausted by the process." (40:42, Erin Doherty)

[Third Failure Segment Starts: 38:59]

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4. Personal Identity: Coming Out and Sexuality

• Journey to Embracing Her Identity:
  Erin shares the belated realization and immense relief in finally accepting her sexuality:

  "...it took me a really, really long time to finally get to the point where I was like, oh, I'm gay...But I think...no one in my life had shown me that that was an option, so I just never applied it to myself." (30:12, Erin Doherty)

  "I was 24, 25 before my first relationship with a woman...and it felt like I had come home." (31:38, Erin Doherty)

  "Just lean into your truth. Because there was something so monumental about that moment of going, whoa, this is me..." (32:05, Erin Doherty)

[Identity Segment: 30:05–32:40]

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5. The Work Ethic and Roots of Resilience

• Family Influence:
  Erin credits her father and her experience of parental divorce for her outlook:

  "...we would always talk about my next step and my next step. I've not questioned that. You just—you work and you work and you work until you get to where you want to be." (17:59, Erin Doherty)

  "...when you watch something break down and you've experienced it, you kind of go, all right. People can go, but it doesn't mean they don't love you." (18:41, Erin Doherty)

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6. Relationships with Roles and Others

• Intensity in Work and Love:
  Erin confesses to pouring herself obsessively into roles and relationships:

  "...the addiction and commitment to honing in on one person and wanting to do it justice...when characters come into my life, I have to give it all—my body and soul and heart and guts and blood and everything." (37:45–38:51, Erin Doherty)

• Role Models in the Industry:
  Admiration for actors like Olivia Colman and Stephen Graham, who "smash it" with authenticity and groundedness:

  "...if you always come back to your why, you'll be safe. And [Stephen Graham] kind of—he's driven that home for me." (44:06–45:02, Erin Doherty)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Coming Out:

  "There was something so monumental about that moment of going, whoa, this is me. And just embracing it and not applying anything else to it. I just think we all deserve that."
  (32:05, Erin Doherty)

• On Friendship:

  "The one person I have is my sister."
  (24:19, Erin Doherty)

• On Role Intensity:

  "I fall in love with them. My girlfriend will attest to this. The minute anything comes into my sphere, the blinkers go on."
  (37:19, Erin Doherty)

• On Failure and Rejection:

  "When someone says no, you have to lean in times 10...If you're not going to be your own cheerleader, no one else is going to be."
  (17:07, Erin Doherty)

• On Sexual Identity:

  "I just hope that I get to offer that to other women or men...just lean into your truth."
  (32:05, Erin Doherty)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [04:43] – Acting and Social Anxiety
• [07:09] – Discovering Mary Carr and 'A Thousand Blows'
• [08:40] – Lessons from Princess Anne
• [14:20] – First Major Failure: Drama School Auditions
• [17:07] – Learning from Rejection
• [22:29] – Second Major Failure: Keeping Friends
• [27:22] – Romance vs. Friendship Attachment
• [30:05] – Identity and Coming Out
• [38:59] – Third Major Failure: Social Gatherings
• [45:02] – Navigating Fame and Industry Role Models

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Tone & Atmosphere

The conversation is warm, honest, and full of gentle humor. Erin's humility, introspection, and authenticity shine as she and Elizabeth foster an atmosphere of mutual respect and curiosity. Even in discussing loneliness, anxiety, or mistakes, Erin’s persistent optimism and empathy pervade, making the episode both relatable and uplifting.

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Summary

Erin Doherty’s appearance on "How to Fail" is a compelling exploration of how failure, identity, and creative passion interweave. By “leaning into her truth,” Erin models the courage and self-acceptance that the podcast so joyously champions. This episode will resonate with anyone seeking comfort, solidarity, and inspiration on their own imperfect path.

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For more: Listen to "How to Fail with Elizabeth Day" wherever you get your podcasts.

Transcript

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[Erin Doherty]

Welcome.

[Elizabeth Day]

To how to Fail, the podcast that treats all failure as data acquisition. Before we get onto the episode today, I just wanted to give you a quick reminder about my subscriber podcast Failing with Friends where my guest and I answer your questions and offer some advice on your failures too. This week I'm joined by the actor Erin Doherty and here's a taster of.

[Erin Doherty]

What you can expect and I just hope that I get to offer that to other women or men like whoever you are like just lean into your truth.

[Elizabeth Day]

Do join in by following the link in the podcast notes where you can email me or look out for my monthly call outs on Instagram for quick fire questions. Erin Doherty grew up in Crawley, West Sussex, in the shadow of Gatwick Airport, where her father worked in air transportation and her mother was a doctor's receptionist. In fact, Doherty's early talent for football, she was scouted by Chelsea Women, meant she might never have been an actor at all. It was her dad who, sick of having to drive his daughter both to drama class and to football practice every Sunday, asked her to make a choice. Since then, her course was set. She ended up at the Bristol Old Vic Theatre School and after graduating, her early parts on stage moved one theatre critic to describe her as having star wattage as bright as anything. Her big on Screen break came in 2019, when she was cast as Princess Anne in Netflix's the Crown. Now, after acclaimed performances in Chloe, a BBC Amazon thriller about a parasocial relationship, and the movie Firebrand alongside Alicia Vikander and Jude Law, she returns to our screens in In A Thousand Blows, a Disney drama about the Victorian underground boxing scene in which Doherty plays the real life Mary Carr, leader of an all female criminal gang. She's also currently on stage at London's Garrick Theatre in Unicorn, a play written by Mike Bartlett, who, in a neat twist of fate, also wrote the first play she ever saw at the age of 19. I've always been quite socially anxious and insular, doherty says, but I guess acting became a way I could express myself. I don't know what I would do without it. Erin Dougherty, welcome to how to Fail.

[Erin Doherty]

Thank you for having me. I'm really, really happy to be here.

[Elizabeth Day]

I'm happy you're here. And you just told me that you are actually performing a matinee today of Unicorn.

[Erin Doherty]

Yep, that's happening.

[Elizabeth Day]

That's happening in a couple of hours, but we'll just bash this one out first.

[Erin Doherty]

I'm really buzzed to be here, though. I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Elizabeth Day]

Oh, that's so kind of you to say so. And I'm thrilled as well because I've been fangirling before we started recording over ch, which was the first thing I ever saw you in and is an amazing, amazing piece of television. But I wanted to end on that quote, that idea that you might be socially anxious, but acting's given you the confidence. Because I think sometimes there's a misapprehension that actors do it for attention.

[Erin Doherty]

Yeah. And it has always kind of bugged me. And I suppose there are people out there who are just more socially adept than me. But yeah, for me it's 100% a form of escapism. And there's something really freeing about portraying someone else and expressing and experiencing those emotions through, like the weird safety of a script. And if that wasn't there, I think I would just. I don't know, I don't know how I'd get it out. So, yeah, it's always kind of been a lifeboat for me in that sense.

[Elizabeth Day]

So do you think every role that you've played has taught you something about who you are?

[Erin Doherty]

I think so. I'm a definite believer in parts finding the actor and someone being in a headspace and things cross their paths when they're ready to explore it. And so there's definite, kind of. It definitely correlates with where I'm at in my life, the characters that I choose to play at that moment in time and what I'm ready to explore. Yeah, and I do. You do kind of. Once you've embodied someone for a year sometimes, which I did with Mary Carr on A Thousand Blows, they kind of. They stay with you and you get to really learn things from them and try things on for size and go, oh, no. Actually, I feel really good when I just say things how they are. Like, it's a really gorgeous opportunity to just try things. And, yeah, I love my job.

[Elizabeth Day]

Let's talk about Mary Carr in A Thousand Blows. So A Thousand Blows, written by Peaky Blinder's creator. What I love about Mary Carr, I mean, what a role. But the 40 elephants, the criminal gang that she's part of, was a real criminal gang.

[Erin Doherty]

Yeah. I had no idea that they even existed. So when the script came through in my emails, I was like, hold on a minute, this is based on real people. And so I went and did loads and loads of research. Yeah, I was just flabbergasted that no one had told this story before. But actually, when I spoke to Hannah and Stephen about it, they were like, yeah, that was like. Steven Knight was actually sitting on that story about the 40 elephants for a while before they brought Hezekiah Moscow to him. And he was like, I know exactly how I'm gonna interweave these stories. Because he knew years back, I think, that he wanted to tell that story, but he just didn't have the right machine, I suppose, to drive it home. But, yeah, they're fascinating people.

[Elizabeth Day]

It's fascinating. And it's such a rich tapestry of London in that era. So Hezekiah, who you mentioned, turns out from Jamaica, he wants to be a lion tamer. He ends up as underground boxer. But Mary Carr, I mean, were you just so thrilled when you got that role? I mean, you so deserve it. But explain that character for us.

[Erin Doherty]

I mean, yeah, I was chomping at the bit to be a part of this series, but knowing that I could be this woman who, on the page, she's so grounded and just earthy, and I just. I. I'd give my right arm to play someone like that. So when I got it, I was, yeah, over the moon. There's not that much out there about her as a human being, which was kind of freeing in a way, which I loved. So I kind of got the backbone of things she did. Like finding out they robbed Harrods she, like, kidnapped a kid. So I kind of. That created a backbone. And then I was like, oh, okay, well, who psychologically would this woman be, like, in order to make these choices? Yeah. And it was an absolute gift of a role.

[Elizabeth Day]

Was it nice to act with your own accent?

[Erin Doherty]

Yeah. Oh, my God. And it took such a long time after the crown for people to be like, oh, so you're not, like, of a certain ilk, which was. Yeah, I think all actors get it, like, when you just get pigeonholed when you first kind of break out and people go, you're that person. And so it takes a while to really break that mold.

[Elizabeth Day]

And what did Princess Anne teach you? You said that you take something from every role.

[Erin Doherty]

Yeah, Princess Anne. What she gave me was this kind of resilience at just needing to be honest. Like, she had just this thing about her where she wouldn't compromise. And I found that really empowering. Like, not in a. I don't know, it wasn't in a spiteful way, but she was just adamant that when she was sat in front of someone, she would give them the unvarnished truth. And that's really empowering, particularly as a woman, but also from my lens of. I've definitely grown up being a bit of a people pleaser, so I've always kind of been tuned into how some things may be received, whereas she just didn't buy into that. And I've definitely taken a little slice of that with me, which is so freeing.

[Elizabeth Day]

And the hairspray. Do you know, are you better at using hairspray now, if I'm honest?

[Erin Doherty]

Honestly, like, the smell of it for me brings back such strong memories of sitting in a chair for hours on end. I don't do it anymore. I'm a big fan of Dry shampoo. That's my. My closest link. Honestly, I'm just lazy when it comes to it. So. No, that's my kind of, like in there. But, yeah, it's a lot of hairspray.

[Elizabeth Day]

I've got two more slightly weird questions before we get onto your failures. Go on. One is, how did you feel when the Queen died?

[Erin Doherty]

Odd. I was doing a play at the time. I was doing the Crucible at the National Theatre, and so everyone was talking about the big queue. Like that was. People were queuing up for her funeral, so. And I remember we were actually in rehearsals when they were like, we're going to have to cancel, or we had to push our press night because of this huge thing. And I just remember, in a way, because it had been so many years since being a part of that whole world, I just kind of let it go. So until that point, I didn't realize how, or maybe I'd forgotten how integral they are to our culture and how just how much people love this woman. And quite rightly, like, I do. Like, I look back at the things she has done for our country and who she kind of is as a human being. I find her so brilliantly inspiring. But it took all those years later to really kind of sit back and go, oh, wow, like, I got to be a part of this. This show that is honoring this incredible woman, essentially. But, yeah, I kind of grew up not really being aware of the royals. Like, no one in my family is a royalist. So it was just. You'd get the days off when someone was getting married, and that was a result, like, that's all they really meant to me. So it was. It was. It was a really odd experience to kind of then years later, be quite moved by this person that I've never known. But you, through process of osmosis, you feel like you do have a relationship with this woman. So it was quite a bizarre thing to grieve someone you've never met.

[Elizabeth Day]

This must be so intense because of the way that you've spoken about how you prepare for roles. It's like psychologically getting in tune with the part that you're playing. So psychologically, you had got in tune with the Queen's daughter.

[Erin Doherty]

Yeah, so.

[Elizabeth Day]

So that must be.

[Erin Doherty]

Yeah, it was really odd. Like, I really felt like I had this kind of. This link, which was odd as well, because obviously, at the age that I was portraying Princess Anne, it was quite. There was a lot of friction there between them. So it was also, I suppose it was quite therapeutic to work through that. And then sadly, when she did pass, it kind of left me, in a sense.

[Elizabeth Day]

And I know that past interviews I've read you said that you'd never met Princess Anne. I just wondered if that's changed.

[Erin Doherty]

Never. And honestly, if she's out there and willing, I would love it. I've not lost my admiration for who she is and what she represents and the way she's tread her path. I just think, yeah, more power to you.

[Elizabeth Day]

Well, I know she's a regular listener to Housefellow. I'm kidding. I don't.

[Erin Doherty]

I would love it. Wouldn't that be great?

[Elizabeth Day]

That would be.

[Erin Doherty]

So, yes, it was because of you.

[Elizabeth Day]

I said I had two weird questions. The second one is that we have something in common.

[Erin Doherty]

Go on.

[Elizabeth Day]

We Both used to play the trumpet.

[Erin Doherty]

Yes. No way. I've never met anyone. Everyone thinks I'm a weirdo for playing the trumpet.

[Elizabeth Day]

Ditto. It's so rare. It's so cool. And it's so rare for women.

[Erin Doherty]

Yeah. Why didn't we follow that through?

[Elizabeth Day]

Can you imagine? I know there's one amazing female trumpeter, Alison Balsam, isn't there?

[Erin Doherty]

I don't know.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yeah. But otherwise it's yes. So when did you take it up and when did you stop?

[Erin Doherty]

It was basically, it was just like in school. I don't know if this was. Basically they were just like, right, we're doing like music lessons and you can pick an instrument. And my sister chose the clarinet. And I was like, nah, I just wanted. I don't know, I was just gunning for that trumpet. I knew that I wanted to play the trumpet. I don't know why. I was just like, there's no other option here. I'm going for that trumpet. And it was only me who chose it. So I had like one on one lessons with this dude after school. But yeah, there just came a point, in all honesty, I just couldn't be asked to bring in the. The case every day.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yeah.

[Erin Doherty]

Because I'd also. Yeah. And I'd rock up to school. Like, you'd, like, you'd play football before the school bell went off, before you went into class. And so I'd. It just messed with my flow because I'd have to put it down. Like when everyone put their bags to make the two goals and I was like, what do I do? I can't, like, I can't put my trumpet there. Like, what if someone knocks over my trumpet? So I just, I gave it up so I could play football at school in the mornings before I went in.

[Elizabeth Day]

I'm so glad we have that in common.

[Erin Doherty]

I've never. Oh, my God. That is like. That's the connection I never knew I needed, actually.

[Elizabeth Day]

And our initials are the same. Ed. Come on.

[Erin Doherty]

Oh, my gosh, what is this? I'm gonna leave here today. Like, I've just had a spiritual experience. I love it.

[Elizabeth Day]

Anyway, let's get onto your failures. So your first failure is musical theatre and drama school auditions.

[Erin Doherty]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

So at the stage we're talking about, you've made the choice that you want to act rather than be a footballer.

[Erin Doherty]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

Drama school auditions. Tell me about this process.

[Erin Doherty]

It was really awful. So basically on the weekends when I was doing football, I was also going to like a musical theater thing afterwards. So I grew up doing musical theater. So for a long time I was like, that's what I'm gonna do. So the first. My first year out of sixth form, I auditioned to all these musical theater colleges and I just very quickly realized that it wasn't the life for me. Like, these people, I have such admiration for the work that goes into what they do. But I was looking at them like before, like, you'd have to go up and do a dance call and do a singing thing. And I was just like, so unavoidably awkward and just disarmed by my own nerves. I was just like, this is not. There's no point in doing this. Cause I'm not having any fun here. And yeah, so I didn't get in anywhere on that first year, which was no surprise to me. But it was equally. It was still really heartbreaking because someone's telling you no. But, yeah, so then I went and did. I stayed on at my secondary school and did a year of working there as a PE technician and a drama technician and earned some money. But by that time I'd made the decision that I was just going to go for drama schools and I didn't get in anywhere that year. But maybe like a couple of months after finding out that I didn't get in Guildford School of Acting, I think just by chance or whatever, they sent a letter to my mum's address, being like, we're doing this foundation course. And I went in an audition for that and got that. And that was kind of the start of the snowball of the whole thing for me.

[Elizabeth Day]

Wow. What do you think kept you going during that time of rejection?

[Erin Doherty]

I think having no other option, like, I've always just been fascinated by people. And I think from that first experience of going on the weekends and doing this musical theatre class and understanding that it's a way of expressing yourself, I think it just became part of who I am. And so there's never been another option, like, without being. It's nothing to do with. I will be successful at this thing. It's just. I don't know how I get to. I'm gonna live my life without this in my. Like, as a part of who I am. So I think it was just, no, I have to. So I'll just keep going and do those experiences now.

[Elizabeth Day]

Have they helped when you've been rejected in other situations?

[Erin Doherty]

Hugely. Like, in a way, I've learned to really love rejection and really use it as a positive thing of when someone says, no, you have to lean in times 10. Like, I just think it's really given me that strength of spirit of going, well, if I decide to do something, it doesn't necessarily matter if straight away no one else wants to jump on board, but if I'm going to commit, then I will make it happen. And eventually people will go, oh, yeah, like, I'll buy into that. Or, yeah, come over here and we'll let you do that over here. Like, I think if you're not going to be your own cheerleader, no one else is going to be. So sometimes it just takes a couple of years for everyone to jump on board, essentially.

[Elizabeth Day]

That also makes me think you have a very strong work ethic. And, yeah, you're nodding. Does that come from your parents, do you think?

[Erin Doherty]

I think so. I think I've always kind of grown up. I've had such a. And still do have such a beautiful relationship with my dad. And he. When I first was like, I'm going to try out for drama schools, he was like, you probably should go to uni, like, just to have this, like, back. So he's very much been this person of, like, we would always talk about my next step and my next step. I've not questioned that. You just. You work and you work and you work until you get to where you want to be. And he's kind of given me that beautiful gift of believing in what you're doing and just. Yeah, not giving up.

[Elizabeth Day]

So your parents got divorced when you were young?

[Erin Doherty]

Yeah, yeah, really young. I was four. Again, it's a gift of really understanding people and relationships and not applying any immense pressure for everything to work out in. In my own life. Because when you watch something break down and you've experienced it, you kind of go, all right. Like, people can go, but it doesn't mean they don't love you. Like, it's still. So it's offered me that, which has.

[Elizabeth Day]

Been, gosh, that was beautiful.

[Erin Doherty]

Yeah, it's. It's taken me a while to get there.

[Elizabeth Day]

That's so wise.

[Erin Doherty]

Yeah. Well, I just think again, I. I think I'm an inherently positive person. Like, I'm constantly seeking out, and I genuinely do believe it. I feel like there's a lesson in everything, whether you're ready to hear it and believe it, it will get you eventually. And you'll be like, oh, that's what I was supposed to take from that. I just think that's the wonderful thing about life is that it's cyclical, and you'll go on these circles until you receive what you're supposed to receive, and then you'll move on.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yeah. I could not agree more. There is a lesson in everything, and you're so right, that sometimes the lesson isn't immediately apparent, and sometimes the lesson is just, well, I survived that. So I was stronger than I think.

[Erin Doherty]

Yeah. Which is amazing. Like, what a gift to be like, oh, my gosh. And then. Because then you're gifted with compassion and empathy for seeing someone else and being like, whoa, you can recognize it. I feel like it's such a wonderful thing in a way, to have experienced immense hurt and pain because you can. It gives you just an awareness and a sensitivity to others. And what a wonderful thing to be able to sit in front of someone and go, are you okay? And genuinely ask that question and want to know how they're doing.

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[Erin Doherty]

I've been learning to throw a boomerang because this. This is the kind of thing that really gets the listeners engaged.

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You know, interviews with people who will make you smarter.

[Erin Doherty]

Does the amount that you learn protect.

[Elizabeth Day]

You from cognitive decline?

[Erin Doherty]

Can't people just listen to the show? Can't they just enjoy a delightful treehouse full of information and. I think I'm bleeding.

[Jonathan Van Ness]

Join us and be a nobody.

[Erin Doherty]

Prime delivery is fast. How fast are we talking? We're talking puzzle toys and lick pad delivered so fast you can get this puppy under control fast. We're talking chew toys at your door without really Waiting fast pads, cooling mat and peg hammer. Fast and fast. And those training T R E A T s faster than you can say sit fast. And now we can all relax and order these matching hoodies to get cozy and cute.

[Elizabeth Day]

Fast, fast.

[Erin Doherty]

Free delivery. It's on pr.

[Elizabeth Day]

Okay, let's get on to your second failure, which is keeping friends.

[Erin Doherty]

Erin? Yeah, I know.

[Elizabeth Day]

What a great one to choose. Thank you. Because I'm fascinated by friendship.

[Erin Doherty]

Me, too.

[Elizabeth Day]

So tell me why you chose this one.

[Erin Doherty]

I think for that reason, there's a bit of a taboo around it about, like, well, if you can't keep friends, are you a good person? And that's been like, my mass. My thing again, like, something I've, like, grappled with is I've always just. I don't know whether. Whether it's because I've. I always grew up basically at school. I never really committed to the idea of it. I. So I always was like, I'm going to go to drama school. I never liked any of the subjects that I was studying, so I never really committed. So I didn't gain those integral friendships that most people savor until they're blooming 80 years old. Like, a lot of these friendships are formed at that moment in time, and so I just never got that. And then when you become an actor, you do a job and it's the most wonderful, intense thing for like a year or a couple of months, but then you move on. And so these people enter your life, but then they go again and always just kind of gone, oh, okay. People can come and people can go, but you don't need to. Like, it's just not been a lesson of mine that you have to hold on and really nurture these things, which I am. Like, there's. There's a sadness that I haven't gained that ability, but there's also something gorgeous about being in the present moment with someone and just diving in and then letting them go and then sending them a text every now and then, being like, I'm thinking of you, or do you want to meet for a coffee? Like, that's as far as it goes with me. I don't have these. Like, I don't. I just don't have these people. The one person I have is my sister.

[Elizabeth Day]

So do you. Is it partly because. Do you ever feel overwhelmed at the idea of having to constantly communicate?

[Erin Doherty]

That's definitely a thing. Yeah. I'm really bad at my phone. Like, I think. I think that feeds into it. I really. I'm just not that way. Inclined, Like, I'm really bad at picking it up and text. Or if someone does text me, I won't, like, read it and reply. I'll, like, look at it and put it away. I just don't. I don't know what it is. So that's a tough one because, again, a lot of the people that I would stay in touch with or meet, like, don't live anywhere near me, like, because of. Or people are away doing a job in Morocco or whatever. Like, so it's. That's a big issue. I guess what it is is I'm a perfectionist. And so I hate the idea of being a really awful friend. So I'm like, right, well, I just won't commit to that. And I'll be the person that they can meet for coffee every now and then, but I don't have to put that label on it because then I'm under no pressure to be this shining beacon of hope for friendship. Like, I just won't put myself under that stress.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yeah. So insightful.

[Erin Doherty]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

I think that there are many different metrics to friendship. And because it's friendship, we don't accord it enough space in our mental lives to give it a language.

[Erin Doherty]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

So we do that with romantic love, but never really with platonic love.

[Erin Doherty]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

And so there's this assumption that there's one way to be, quote unquote, a good friend.

[Erin Doherty]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

And being like, good is moralizing language.

[Erin Doherty]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Day]

And actually it's about being true. I think for me, in friendship, and I'm like you, I think the most important metric I look for in my friends is generosity of spirit. So that idea that we cannot see each other for months or I hate talking on the phone, so we'll never have a phone call, but I will send a text 7 months after I last spoke to you, being like, I'm thinking of you.

[Erin Doherty]

I love that.

[Elizabeth Day]

And when we do meet up, we can just hit that relational depth really quickly.

[Erin Doherty]

Yeah. It doesn't. There's no awkwardness. And I've always loved that. And I think because as well, growing up, I kind of did this summer school thing, and so there would be people that I wouldn't see for a year, but the minute that you were in the same room with them, it's like no time had passed. And I always just thought, well, this is brilliant. Like, that's not. Yeah. It doesn't take away from my love for this person. But I'm just a very of the moment. What am I doing now? Okay, I'm here With you. Let's do this thing. I just. Yeah. I just can't have that, like, continuous thing. But like you say, it doesn't necessarily equate to me loving that person any less.

[Elizabeth Day]

We can be friends, by the way. We can be friends forever and never speak again. Yes. That's my gift to you.

[Erin Doherty]

I love that. Honestly, there's this weird pressure of. I don't know where it's come from. I suppose it is just in our culture. Yeah. Of like, keeping that up and keeping that communication up. But. Yeah, that's brilliant.

[Elizabeth Day]

I wonder also because of what you were saying about your parents divorce and understanding that love still exists even if you're not with someone all the time in a conventional way.

[Erin Doherty]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

Can I ask how this plays out with romantic relationships?

[Erin Doherty]

I mean, for me, like, I love love. I am a hopeless romantic. It's everything. But yet it goes the opposite direction again. I can see as I'm saying these things out loud, I'm like, oh, God. That's why I do that. I go 100% in. Like, my person is my person. Like, I just, I. I adore being in love and I adore nurturing this thing. But I think that alongside my work, my brain would explode if there's anything else aside from my family. Like, I adore my sister, but sometimes she'll. She'll let me go for six months and she's like, I got you. Like, it's fine. I know that you're doing this and this, but. Yeah. So romantic wise, I'm all in. Like, it's everything to me. But at the same time, I have to really, really work on that idea of people can come and go. Like, I think it's. It's a part of life, is that sometimes people are for you at that moment in time, but then you have to relinquish that and go, okay, well, then it ran its course. But I'm very, very wholeheartedly into love.

[Elizabeth Day]

There's this line that keeps coming back to me from the first episode of A Thousand Blows Uttered by Mary Karr that I can't get out of my head. And I know that she's talking about men, but it seems to me to be relevant in so many areas where she says, I am beyond men. And there's something about that that feels so apt for this conversation. That you kind of exist beyond what you are being told is appropriate.

[Erin Doherty]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

In terms of how to express your love as a friend or romantic partner, does that resonate with you?

[Erin Doherty]

Really? Really. This is great. This is like, therapy.

[Elizabeth Day]

Biggest compliment you can take, honestly.

[Erin Doherty]

Yeah. That's amazing. Oh, my God, it's so true. Like, and I think, yeah, it's kind of this weird belief that I've carried around of being an outsider. And so I've witnessed the social norms, but always, thank goodness, felt so much on the outside that in a weird way, I've never really felt the pressure of not buying into it and so going, oh, okay. I understand that people say that you're supposed to have this solid group of friends or, you know, like, you're. You're supposed to, I don't know, have these social airs and graces, but actually, I've. I've never felt. So. I've just never felt the need to abide by them because I've not felt in the thick of life in a weird way, like, I have. It's such a weird thing to say out loud, but I've just kind of grown up with this Outskirts outlook.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yeah. And I don't want to be making an inelegant leap now, but how does that play out with your sexual identity?

[Erin Doherty]

Yeah. It took me a really, really long time to finally get to the point where I was like, oh, I'm gay. Like, But I think again, because I kind of grew up doing the social thing of going, oh, okay, well, I'll. I'll have a boyfriend and I'll do this thing. And I never questioned it. Knowing who I was in my heart of hearts, in my soul. It took me a really long time to. I suppose no one in my life had shown me that that was an option, so I just never applied it to myself. So it took a while to really go, oh, this is something that I can have, which also kind of leans into the whole kind of people pleaser thing. And I kind of never really was ready to carve out that path for myself, even though I always, now looking back, always knew that my relationships with men weren't satisfying in that wholehearted way that I. I wanted them to be. But, yeah, it took me a while to get there, and now I am there. I'm, like, just so adamant about being vocal about it because hopefully it may offer someone else that. Just that little outlook that it can be for them, because that's all I needed.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes. And how did you. What age were you when you felt you had got there? Cause you're still so young.

[Erin Doherty]

It took me. Honestly, I was. How old was I? 24, 25. Before my first relationship with a woman. And yeah, as I say, it was mind blowing. And it felt like I had come home. Like, I was just like, wow. Like, this is a part of who I am that I'd never got to meet, which was just so crazy. And again, like, I wouldn't change it because it's really made me adore that part and really cherish it and really. And I just hope that I get to offer that to other women or men. Like, whoever you are, just lean into your truth. Because there was something so monumental about that moment of going, whoa, this is me. And just embracing it and not applying anything else to it. There's. I just think we all deserve that. Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

So I just want to take a moment that was so beautifully put. Oh, it's like coming home. It really was so moving.

[Erin Doherty]

Oh, I love that.

[Elizabeth Day]

Thank you for sharing that.

[Erin Doherty]

No, not at all. Race the rudders. Raise the sails. Raise the sails. Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching, over. Roger, wait. Is that an enterprise sales solution?

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[Elizabeth Day]

So I wanted to ask you about Chloe in reference to this failure because I wrote a book about friendship and there is a chapter in that book about ghosting and I quoted Chloe quite a lot like that. Just it's such an amazing show that I know it's got lots of attention, but I still think it's really underrated. And it's so about female friendship, parasocial relationships kind of played out on social media. So that sense of illusion and what you're imagining and the devastation of being ghosted and then that being a kind of metaphorical death. And then I'm not giving too much away, but it's followed by an actual death. And so anyway, I'm doing a very bad job of explaining why I was obsessed with it, but I was. And I wonder if it taught you anything about friendship. Playing that role ironically.

[Erin Doherty]

Like I met Pip, Pippa Bennett Warner on that job who is I would like. She is one of My closest friends, but we never see each other. Like, I met her on that job. So, yeah, it definitely. It opened my eyes, like, because I. Again, I'd never. I'd never been close enough to have the experience of someone. Friendship, platonic, wise ghost me in that sense. So I. It took for that job for me to really understand those emotions and to really know the devastation that something as maybe minimal and flippant in someone's eyes can do for someone else. I met Pip on that job and we still. Like, I've got a voice note from her again, I'm that person. She sent it to me maybe two weeks ago. I haven't played it because I'm just like, I will get back to you, but my brain just doesn't work that way. But she's, she's the same. She's literally like thinking of you. But yeah, we, it was. That was one of the reasons why I have such fond memories of that job was because we did that together and we found each other.

[Elizabeth Day]

It's also a role that allowed you to be transgressive in so many ways. Just within the role, you're adopting different roles and I mean, yeah, that was the start of my Erin Doherty standom. So thank you for that.

[Erin Doherty]

Thank you.

[Elizabeth Day]

Before we get onto your final failure, I read somewhere in an interview that your last best friend was in primary school and she broke up with you.

[Erin Doherty]

Yeah, well, she left.

[Elizabeth Day]

She left and you'd never gotten over it.

[Erin Doherty]

I know. I never have. Amy Smith, she was my best friend. I know. Wherever she may be. So we were like besties. Like, I've always, I've always been like a one person type. Like, that's just who I am. I can't. I can't be like the six friends type of gal. So I grew up being best friends with Amy Smith. She was the one, like, we first went to. We found this football club, Crawley Wasps, together, and we went and we. Like, she was the goalkeeper. I was sent amid. Like, we did everything together, but then we went to different secondary schools and it just died out. Which I think again is another thing of, like, it was just a moment of understanding that you can live in someone's pocket and adore the pants off them, but then they can go. And, yeah, I had to let go of my best friend.

[Elizabeth Day]

It feels like your characters are friends too. So that sort of obsessive nature that you have where you're like, I love this person. I'm a one person person. I need to. Everything about them you apply to your Characters.

[Erin Doherty]

I do. Yeah, I do. I fall in love with them. Yeah. And my girlfriend will attest to this. At the minute, like, I just. The minute that anything comes into my sphere, I'm like, like, the blinkers go on. I don't. Like, at the minute, she's like, what are we doing on Sunday? And I'm like, absolutely. I don't know. She's like, she's trying to broaden my social circle.

[Elizabeth Day]

Wait, are you embodying Mary Carr at the moment or the character in Unicorn who's part of a throuple?

[Erin Doherty]

I'm a bit. I'm a bit of everything at the minute. So I think that's why my days off on Sundays, I'm like, absolutely lying there on the sofa, just an absolute shell of anything because. But, like, yeah, the addiction and commitment to honing in on one person and wanting to do it justice and wanting to. It's the workaholic thing as well, of just going, well, I can walk away from that knowing that I gave it everything I've got. And it's also something to do with, I don't know, being an artist. People are always going to have an opinion on something you did, and you have to just accept it. But I can only accept it if I know I gave it everything, because then I'm like, okay, well, then it just wasn't for them. Like, but that was my all. But, yeah. So I think when characters come into my life, I have to give it all my body and soul and heart and guts and blood and everything. Because I'm like, this person has, for whatever reason, come into my life, and I'm gonna serve them as best I can because then you can let it go at the end of the job.

[Elizabeth Day]

So well expressed. Thank you.

[Erin Doherty]

Not at all.

[Elizabeth Day]

Your final failure. We've touched on it a little. Your final failure is big social gatherings.

[Erin Doherty]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

So you have said that you like being part of a team, whether that's football or on stage or on set. Yeah, but that doesn't translate to a big social gathering.

[Erin Doherty]

No, I'm awful, awful at them. Like, even this weekend, gone. Like, we were supposed to go to something on Sunday and I was just like, I can't. I can't do it. I just have an immense amount of anxiety about being in those types of environments. I don't know. Like, I love one on one. Like, that's my thing, I think, because I just. I'm so. I just want to be with you, like, in this moment and have this chat. And I love, like, really Getting into the nitty gritty of what's going on in your life and then exploring something in my own. I just think I just crave that kind of communication. And you never get them in big social gatherings. It's very much just kind of like, how are you? What are you doing? It's just very surface. And I find it emotionally and physically so draining. And I don't get to walk away from it with anything. I never feel. I'm always like, oh, I never really got to speak to that person or whatever. Like, I just never feel like I gain anything from it. So I avoid it at all costs. It's really, really a problem.

[Elizabeth Day]

I think it sounds completely logical that you crave connection and the deepest connection you can have is one on one.

[Erin Doherty]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

But it also makes sense of why maybe you like being on stage or filming because you are still doing your connection. Like you are able to offer this connection to a. To a broad audience of people without it being surface. And that's the difference.

[Erin Doherty]

Yeah. And it's not as exhausting. So then when you. And that's the dream in a way. Like, it's not why you do it, but hopefully if you've done your job correctly, people will watch this thing and they'll find, like through the screen or through the stage, they'll connect with this thing and you'll have offered them something. But I'm not as exhausted by the process. And then if someone wants to come up and chat like in the supermarket about something, then it's amazing because you're like, oh, wow. Like we've got this thing that you've offered and it's hit something. But yeah, to physically do it in a room, I just. I get overwhelmed by the prospect.

[Elizabeth Day]

Do you think you would like being super, super famous? Like a sort of global face you're making is like you're about to throw up.

[Erin Doherty]

No.

[Elizabeth Day]

Because I imagine that would be. That would be hell then, given how important that connection.

[Erin Doherty]

Yes. I think I'd have to lean in even more to, like. I'd have to get better at my friendships and at carving out time of. Please. I'd just be that person who would invite people round or I'd get them to invite me round or go and meet up. I would just have to make it happen more because I feel there's something really. And the whole fame is a whole other subject that I'm like. The whole thing baffles me and it makes me so uncomfortable because I just. It's such an odd concept of people not knowing who you really are, but kind of feeling like they have the ability to place these things on you and go, oh, you're this person or you're this. It's just such an. It's just bizarre to me. But I think, yeah, if ever I did have to navigate that, I'd have to just get better at honing and nurturing friendships.

[Elizabeth Day]

So it's not. You wouldn't ever turn down a part because you were worried about the level of fame that would come with it?

[Erin Doherty]

No, not again. I think I would just be interested purely in the part. And if it's necessary and I'm completely. If it speaks to me. There's something weird that happens when you read a script and you're like, I have to do this. It's just. It's one of my joys of the job is that weird aligning and that weird moment where you're like, this is mine. I'm. I am going to be a part of this thing. So I would never. I would never turn something down for fear of what it may mean in the future. If something feels right in the moment, I'm going to jump on it. But I think, yeah, I would just have to. The thing is, what's wonderful is that the longer you're in this industry, the more you meet people who are successful and you see them rocking and you're like, oh, that's how you do that. And you just pick up little lessons along the way. And I. Not, like, I've always loved her, but getting to see Olivia Colman just absolutely smash it. She's smashing life, she's smashing career. Like, she's just doing everything as it should be done. In my eyes. Like, she just. She doesn't buy into any of the faff, but she loves her job enough to lean in. And I think that's all it is, is if you lean in, you do what you have to do, but ultimately you can still be a normal human being and be successful. You just have to really, really remain grounded. And, yeah, it's one of the great privileges of my life to watch her do it.

[Elizabeth Day]

And Stephen Graham, I guess, would be another one who navigates that really well.

[Erin Doherty]

He is, I think, one of the most incredible people I've ever met in my life. He, honestly, he's just. He's got a heart of gold. He's the most generous spirit. Him and Hannah, his wife, who are. They're both the producers on A Thousand Blows. They're just, yeah, two people who have entered my life and I'M like, wow, I don't know who I'd be without you now. They're the people that come in and just change things. And again, as you say, they kind of show you how to do it, because he is so who he is whilst this. He's like, at the. He's in the eye of the storm of this crazy, incredible career. But nothing's changed about him. Like, he's rooted in why he does it. And I think if you always come back to your why, you'll be safe. And he kind of. He's driven that home for me.

[Elizabeth Day]

Oh, Erin, it's been such a pleasure to talk to you because, I mean, it almost sounds like Stephen and Hannah are your friends.

[Erin Doherty]

I would call them my friends, and even they would say I'm really bad at responding.

[Elizabeth Day]

Okay.

[Erin Doherty]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

But I kind of trust that. I kind of trust the bad responder, because when you do respond, it's really heartfelt.

[Erin Doherty]

Oh, yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes.

[Erin Doherty]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

I can imagine a day when you are in your 80s and you're a dame. You're like Maggie Smith. That's what I imagine for you, and that's what I feel for you. And when that happens, if this is still going, I want you to come back.

[Erin Doherty]

Hell, yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

Okay.

[Erin Doherty]

I mean, we've got to come back and we got to do the trumpet podcast, but, you know, and then. And then I'll come back first, and.

[Elizabeth Day]

Then we'll do that and then bring our trumpets in.

[Erin Doherty]

Yeah. Oh, my God. Do you think you could still do like that?

[Elizabeth Day]

No, I tried. I've lost my embouchure.

[Erin Doherty]

Oh, no.

[Elizabeth Day]

The reason I stopped. I know. The reason I stopped doing the trumpet. I did it all through school and then at university. I thought I wanted to carry on, and I tried out for a jazz band, but I'm. I couldn't improvise because I found it so scary. Because you're just, like, out there. Everyone can hear when you split a note, and I just couldn't do it. And I put the trumpet away and I never really picked it up again since.

[Erin Doherty]

I think we should.

[Elizabeth Day]

We should rectify that.

[Erin Doherty]

We should.

[Elizabeth Day]

Did you have a Yamaha trumpet?

[Erin Doherty]

No, I didn't. Okay, but you like. Way more serious than that. No. Never too niche. Never too. We've already hit trumpet. We can't get any more niche than that. We're fine.

[Elizabeth Day]

Erin Doherty, fellow trumpeter. It's been such a pleasure to have you on how to Fail.

[Erin Doherty]

Thank you for having me.

[Elizabeth Day]

And you're sticking around because you're going to answer listener questions on failing with friends, so I'll see you over there. Please do follow how to Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends this is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.

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