← How To Fail With Elizabeth Day
How To Fail With Elizabeth Day
Gugu Mbatha-Raw - ‘Have I ever worked with an awful co-star? Maybe one or two’
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- [00:00]
Elizabeth Day
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- [01:03]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Checking off the boxes on your to do list is a great feeling, and when it comes to checking off coverage, a State Farm agent can help you choose an option that's right for you. Whether you prefer talking in person on the phone or using the award winning app, it's nice knowing you have help finding coverage that best fits your needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.
- [01:37]
Elizabeth Day
Welcome to how to Fail, the podcast that believes that most failures can teach us something meaningful. Before we get onto the main episode today, I just wanted to remind you of my subscriber podcast Failing with Friends, where my special guest and I answer listener questions and offer our advice on your failures. This week I am joined by the one and only Gugu Mbata Raw.
- [02:01]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Ultimately, do you still feel energized by it or is it actually, you know, consistently getting you down?
- [02:08]
Elizabeth Day
Do join in by following the link in the podcast notes where you can send me an email or look out for my monthly call outs on Instagram for quick fire questions. Gugu Mbata Roar is an actress who firmly resists typecasting. Growing up in Oxford, the daughter of a South African doctor and an English nurse, she started ballet at the age of four, but it wasn't until starring as Dorothy in a local drama production of the wizard of Oz that she decided she wanted to be a performer. After graduating from RADA in 2004, she has taken on a fascinating range of roles. Her West End debut was as Ophelia in Hamlet. While on screen, she's tackled everything from Belle, the biracial daughter of an admiral raised in 18th century England in Amma Asante's movie of the same name, to Hannah, a Victim of sexual assault in the hit Apple TV drama the Morning Show. Now Gugu returns to Apple TV with the second season of psychological thriller Surface, in which she reprises her role as Sophie Ellis, a woman piecing together her life after losing her memory in a traumatic incident. She's also, for the first time, an executive producer on the project. Alongside acting, she's a global goodwill ambassador for the un, influenced perhaps by her father's years as an ANC activist opposing apartheid in South Africa. Early on in her career, she came under pressure to change her name, but refused, as she puts it, because you don't give away your identity that easily. I'm the first Gugu I know of in this industry, and it's a gift to be able to celebrate and that originality. Gugu Mbata. Roar. Welcome to how to Fail.
- [03:58]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Oh, thank you. It was so wonderful hearing all of that.
- [04:01]
Elizabeth Day
Oh, well, it's so wonderful to have you in the studio. I don't normally say this, but looking at vision in crocus yellow.
- [04:10]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Come on, Spring. Yes.
- [04:12]
Elizabeth Day
You are willing it. You are manifesting it into existence. I wanted to end on that quote because I wanted to ask you about the meaning of your name because I know it's got a very specific meaning.
- [04:21]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Yes. Gugu is short for gugulehtu, which means our pride in Zulu.
- [04:27]
Elizabeth Day
And what better reason than that for sticking to your name?
- [04:31]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Right? Exactly. Exactly. You gotta be proud of it. And it's funny, just looking at this mug which says fail better on the back that you have here, it just reminds me of my dad always said to me, great men try and fail, but they never fail to try. That was one of. And it just. When you were talking about my dad just then, it reminded me of that quote. So anyway, I agree.
- [04:53]
Elizabeth Day
How beautiful.
- [04:54]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Yeah. What else did he teach you? Well, that was when I failed my driver's test, a driver's license test. You just reminded me of him. I mean, he taught me so much, I think resilience and I guess in a global awareness. You know, growing up in Oxfordshire, I think him coming from South Africa and what he went through just gave me an awareness of the world outside of my town and outside of my experience quite early.
- [05:21]
Elizabeth Day
Did he talk much about his time in the ANC and as an activist against apartheid?
- [05:26]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Not really. When I was a child, I didn't really understand it. I think he would talk about discrimination, but I think it wasn't really, actually until I worked as a goodwill ambassador with UNHCR and refugees that he started to talk more about his experiences, I think, because UNHCR had helped him and I didn't even know that that was something he held very, very close to him. So, yeah, I think it was, as my cousins would say, a kind of ancestral call bringing me into that world for refugees, as he considered himself a political refugee himself.
- [06:07]
Elizabeth Day
And how had they helped him?
- [06:09]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Well, it was to do with him getting a visa, I guess, or a sort of passport when he was finishing his medical training in, in Zambia, I think, long before I was born. But, you know, when he. He fled South Africa as a medical student, so he had to get all of his papers in order and. And to finish to become a doctor.
- [06:33]
Elizabeth Day
Sorry, I got off track. Yes, because we are partly here to talk about Surface, which I just told you, my husband and I have binged.
- [06:39]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
I love that.
- [06:40]
Elizabeth Day
And it's very rare that our TV interests coalesce. So thank you for that gift. And you play this fascinating character of Sophie Ellis, who, without giving too much away, if you haven't seen the first season, but you lose your long term memory.
- [06:54]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
That's right.
- [06:55]
Elizabeth Day
What I find fascinating about the characters that you gravitate towards and that you choose, including Sophie, is that they are often women trapped in social constructs whose life is affected by unspoken power dynamics. And often those power dynamics are to do with gender. And I wonder if you've intentionally thought about that or it's a coincidence or whether that is something that really you gravitate towards.
- [07:26]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Yeah, I mean, that's a great analysis. I think it's chicken and egg, really. Sometimes I think, you know, I look at some of the projects I've done and a lot of them do explore identity. And certainly Sophie is grappling with her identity, not least this other Persona of Tess that she believes people know her by. But I think those are really interesting areas to explore. I think ever since I did Belle, which was very much sort of the collision of, you know, identity, race, class and gender, and would talk with Amara Sante about those themes. I think that they are really interesting subjects to explore in drama and I think if you are a lead as a woman on screen, those help but intersect with the story somehow. So, yeah, I don't know if it's conscious or not, but I seem to magnetize those kind of stories.
- [08:25]
Elizabeth Day
And how do you feel playing those roles has impacted your own sense of self? And how do you think maybe that's also been helped by getting older?
- [08:37]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
I think you grow in confidence. And I think certainly on Surface, I'm now an executive producer on the show, which has been an amazing thing that has come with experience and also getting the chance to work with hello Sunshine, Reese Witherspoon's production company, and that. That being the ethos of their company, I would say it's one of the most diverse crews that I've worked in. And so looking at that, you do feel a sense of getting older or just a sense of the industry changing beneath your feet, but also kind of a pride that you have also been part of that.
- [09:13]
Elizabeth Day
Yes. It feels like your choices are very intentional, not just in the roles that you take on, but the people that you work with. I'm very struck by how many female directors you've worked with. For instance, are you always thinking about that?
- [09:26]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
I think initially it was female directors that just gave me the best roles without sounding like, kill me that I know, I know. You know, when I think about Belle with Amara Sante, when I think about beyond the Lights with Gina Prince Bythewood, you know, working on Fast Color with Julia, working with Ava DuVernay, I feel like that those stories, it was sort of a meeting of not just the story itself, but the point of view. And I think for me, you can have a great female role, but it can still be with the male gaze. What was really interesting with those directors that I was working with, certainly in my first leads in film, is that it very much felt like it was the female gaze, you know, and that the perspective of the story was coming through this woman's. You know, the way this woman was seeing the world and how the world was seeing her.
- [10:22]
Elizabeth Day
Let's get onto your failures. Your first failure is your failure to be a ballet dancer.
- [10:28]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
That's right.
- [10:28]
Elizabeth Day
So when did you start learning how to dance?
- [10:30]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
I mean, I was probably always leaping around the living room. There's pictures of me as a child in a tutu. But I feel like I probably first had ballet lessons when I was 4, you know, and I was an only child. My mum took me to ballet initially, I think, because, well, she went to ballet as a little girl and, you know, and she was a nurse, and I think she probably would have loved to have done something more creative. But also I just had so much energy being an only child. It was a way to kind of burn off my energy after school. And then I wanted to go to tap, and then I wanted to go to jazz, and then I wanted to join the musical theater club, so. But I loved so much, I think, because of the discipline. I think that there was so much structure to it. You know, you started with the bar work and your plies. And by the end of the class, you were leaping across the room in a sweat. And I took it really seriously. At a certain stage, around sort of between 11, I mean, I remember age 11 coming to London and being fitted for my first pair of pointe shoes in Covent Garden. You know, it was so magical. But I took about five ballet classes a week. You know, between 11 and 15, you do all your grades, grades one to sort of seven or eight. Then you do pre elementary and then you do your elementary and that elementary. Even though it sounds like so such a beginners, it's actually sort of the semi professional. If you pass your elementary, you can get into the Royal Ballet and you can go to ballet school and all the other grades. You'd get sort of, you know, a whole pass, merit, distinction. There was a. You know, but the elementary was just pass or fail. And I'd always got distinction from all my other ballet grades. And I did my elementary and I failed. And I was 15, and I was such a high achiever at school. I was, you know, a student just doing, you know, school in my spare time and, you know, dance and drama after school. And it was the first time that I'd really failed at anything. And I guess aware that that's a real privileged position to be in. But for me, it sort of was a huge moment of reassessing. Oh, right. Like, it's not just gonna be one smooth trajectory to the Royal Ballet. You know, actually, that was tough. And, oh, wow. Like, I'm not gonna be a ballet dancer. I have to actually think about what I love about dancing and can I do something else that's close to it. And then I was like, oh, well, I like being on stage still and I like musicals. And there's dancing in musicals, you just have to sing and do a bit of acting as well. So, you know, and it sort of opened me up to that. And then I became a huge musical theater nerd and thought I wanted to do that for another three years and then. But then that brought me to acting. And I think at the time then I was doing my A levels and was doing art and English literature and just got introduced to Shakespeare. And so it sort of led me to an awareness of plays and literature and acting and sort of finding my voice as opposed to just expressing myself physically. So in a way, I'm really thankful to that first failure, because if I was a ballet dancer, I'd be retired by now, long retired, wouldn't be sitting.
- [13:59]
Elizabeth Day
Here talking to you so interesting for a number of reasons. I'm a big believer that any rejection is redirection. And I think you've expressed that so beautifully with that anecdote. That first experience of something not going according to plan when you've put in so much work is heartbreaking.
- [14:19]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Yes.
- [14:19]
Elizabeth Day
And do you still. Can you still access that feeling that you had?
- [14:23]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Oh, yeah. And I think stories that we're sort of told, this sort of, you know, this narrative of beginning, middle, end, and it's all going to go in a certain trajectory. But, yeah, I absolutely kind of think I'm still quite a physical performer. I think things have got more and more distilled, and I think, you know, from theater to being on screen, stillness is valued more in a way, but you can still have all of that stuff fizzling underneath. But still, now I'll do things and I'll sit in a certain way or I'll, you know, even doing a fight scene or something, and a stunt coordinator will be like, did you used to do dancing? Because, you know, you just pointed your toe and we really want you to actually kick some ass, not, like, point where you point your toe and, you know, the muscle memory is. Is deep, you know, or how you sit in a chair and move, how you carry yourself. I think it really. It's still within me somewhere.
- [15:14]
Elizabeth Day
When I was doing research for this interview, I watched a video of you being interviewed on Facebook. And I don't always look at comments, particularly not on social media, but for some reason, I did on this one. And the first comment was from someone who went to school with you.
- [15:26]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Oh, okay.
- [15:27]
Elizabeth Day
And said the loveliest things about you and said you were so. You were always so lovely and kind at school, and it's so wonderful to see you succeed. And what were you like? How do you recall school?
- [15:37]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
I mean, this is probably not popular, but I loved school.
- [15:43]
Elizabeth Day
School loved.
- [15:44]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Nobody ever says that stuff, but I loved school. I think I. I was an only child, like, I. And I was sort of vivacious and enthusiastic, and at school, I got to be around my friends, like, and I got to be around people, and I think I just found it fascinating and fun. And I think I. I was quite a hard worker. And I wasn't popular at school. I wasn't. And I wasn't sort of nerdy or bullied or excluded. I was one of those, really, in between people. I ended up being head girl at my school and I went to my local comprehensive, you know, so that. That meant, you know, you were sort of voted for by Your you, the teachers in your. The sixth form at your school.
- [16:36]
Jonathan Van Ness
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- [17:44]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
I've been learning to throw a boomerang because this is the kind of thing that really gets the listeners engaged.
- [17:49]
Jonathan Van Ness
You know, interviews with people who will make you smarter.
- [17:53]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Does the amount that you learn protect.
- [17:55]
Elizabeth Day
You from cognitive decline? Paula, don't try to catch that.
- [18:00]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Can't people just listen to the show? Can't they just enjoy a delightful treehouse.
- [18:04]
Elizabeth Day
Full of information and I think I'm bleeding.
- [18:07]
Jonathan Van Ness
Join us and be a nobody.
- [18:11]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Race the rudders. Raise the sails. Raise the sails.
- [18:14]
Jonathan Van Ness
Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching.
- [18:17]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Over. Roger, wait. Is that an enterprise sales solution?
- [18:22]
Jonathan Van Ness
Reach sales professionals, not professional sailors. With LinkedIn ads, you can target the right people by industry, job title, and more. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Get started today at LinkedIn.com results, terms and conditions apply.
- [18:40]
Elizabeth Day
We've spoken about your father, and I'm just aware that I'd really like to speak about your mother, just so to give her equal billing. And I get a strong sense of her already from who took you to ballet classes and that was important. What's she like?
- [18:53]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Oh, my mum. She is wonderful. She's one of the best friends in life that I have and she is hardworking. She was a nurse when I was growing up, working really hard and creative and artistic, and I think she would have probably loved to have had more of a creative life than she did. In some ways, that wasn't really accessible to her. And she's always supported me, but she's never pushed me. I think, you know, I've always. She would often worry that I was taking on too much, so she's always really given me confidence.
- [19:30]
Elizabeth Day
And your parents split up when you.
- [19:31]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Were very, very young? Yes.
- [19:33]
Elizabeth Day
So would it be fair to describe her as a single mother or was your father?
- [19:35]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Yes. No, 100%. I grew up pretty much with my mum and I saw my dad regularly, but they. I don't really remember them together. I think there is that quite intense only child, single mom, mother, daughter vibe, which is that you certainly, as you get a bit older, you sort of become a team. And I realize now, as I get older that it's quite intense. Like, I think it's maybe more intense than some other dynamics that you might have if you've got siblings or if there's a dad in the house on a daily basis.
- [20:10]
Elizabeth Day
What an amazing woman. And I just. I can't even imagine how proud your parents must be. I mean, to see. See you thrive in the way that you are.
- [20:20]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Oh, yeah. No, they are really still supportive and I think they keep me grounded as well. You know, there's certain things. You go home and, you know, certain things that don't change, and they treat me exactly the same.
- [20:31]
Elizabeth Day
So before we get onto your second failure, you are redirected into acting and you end up at RADA.
- [20:37]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Yes. Yes.
- [20:38]
Elizabeth Day
What was RADA like?
- [20:39]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
I was 17 when I auditioned and I got in when I was 18, and I'd never left home before. So a lot of people that were there were maybe 21 had been to university, and I came straight from my A levels. In fact, I came straight from Japan because I was doing national youth music theater in Japan when I got the call from my mom on the landline from the hostel that we were staying at in Japan with the youth theater company to say that I'd got in and I only had sort of two weeks after I got back from this Japan tour to sort of move to London, and I had nowhere to live. I ended up living in a hostel that was run by nuns in Marylebone. Like, it was. So sort of. I realize now probably I was young to go there, but I. I was quite determined and, you know, and I just sort of figured it out. And I think so many people at RADA had much more life experience than I did. For RADA, you kind of. It was like a 12 hour day, like nearly every day, you know. And I think for me, coming straight from school, that wasn't as hard to get into because I'd already been doing so many extracurricular things. So, yeah, I mean, I love Drago. It was very much a theater training. You know, there wasn't certainly when I was there, there was a sort of TV term course in the second year, but it was very much like you were just recording a scene with a friend. Considering how much film and television I've actually done in my career, the technique of all of that I learned on the job. I mean, I remember the first or third round audition. I remember the sort of deputy head of RADA at the time who's not there anymore, said, don't smile so much, you shouldn't smile so much. And I remember that really was sort of. And I hadn't even got in yet, but that was a really weird thing. And I thought, oh, that's. I didn't know I was smiling and is that wrong? And what does that mean? But I. And perhaps a rather blunt thing to say to an 18 year old, but I think I was just so enthusiastic and I think perhaps what he was really trying to get at was that kind of keeping the lid on the bubbling pot thing of, you know, and again, very English kind of restraint, withholding something or having that, that secret underneath is, is more mysterious perhaps, and more, more interesting as a performer than just being so thrilled to be there and, and giving everything away.
- [23:18]
Elizabeth Day
That's fascinating. But I'm still hung up on the hostel run by nuns. Sorry, yes.
- [23:24]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Oh my gosh, yes. What, what do you want to know? Well, you know, I got, I got there, I got to Radha. And as I say, I had two weeks before it started term started. I had nowhere to live in London and they don't have. Unlike university, there's no halls of residence. You're just in London figuring out. Super expensive, super expensive. And there was the bursa, Pat Myers, who is a legend, you know, she. I got a scholarship to go there as well. And you know, so we were going through, okay, I've got a scholarship, but now I need somewhere to live. And she was going through the list of sort of dig the digs list or whatever. And then she's like, well, wait a minute, I. You're Catholic, aren't you? And I was like, well, I. Yes, I mean, kind of. I went to, you know, Catholic primary school. And she's like, well, if you're Catholic, there is, there is a hostel in Marylebone and there is another girl in your year called Amy who also needs somewhere to live just for the first term or the first few weeks. You could be roommates there and if you become friendly, you can then get. Get a house together or whatever. So. So yeah, it was in Marylebone, in quite a bougie area, I now realize, but it was. It was run by nuns. I mean, the problem was there was a curfew and it was so early. It was something like you had to be back at like 11. And I was 18, just moved to London. I mean, every weekend I was kipping on somebody's sofa because I didn't get home in time. My friend Amy one time had to break me in to the hostel. Getting back too late. I mean, it was kind of. Kind of. It sounds so, I guess, naive and sort of idyllic. Now we would walk along New Cavendish street from Marylebone to RADA every day. It was always a temporary measure and I think it was just until I sort of found my feet in London as a teenager. And, I mean, I'm still really good friends with Amy to this day. We shared a room and everything. And by Christmas I'd figured it out and I joined a flat share in North London with some third years. And then I was away. I was, you know, living in a different apartment every six months pretty much. But it was an amazing start, I think, to being in central London. Cause as I say, I could walk everywhere. And apart from not being able to. To come home like crazy late at night, it was sort of an enchanted time, really.
- [25:41]
Elizabeth Day
Yeah. Failure to be a nun is not one of your failures. However, the next failure is your failure to be a painter.
- [25:49]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Yes. Yes.
- [25:50]
Elizabeth Day
Tell me why you picked this one.
- [25:52]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
It's because alongside the love of acting and dancing, I really was obsessed with art growing up. And I think I sort of was at school and did my GCSEs along the time of the young British artists, Tracey Emin and, you know, Damien Hirst and Jenny Saville, who really caught my eye, who just painted these figures that were so fleshy and, you know, like Lucian Freud, kind of meaty human flesh and bodies. And I just found that such a compelling way to express yourself through painting. I just thought it was real and it wasn't trying to be beautiful. And I, again, I tried. I tried to get into Goldsmiths actually to do drama because of them, because of the young British artists and because of that whole scene. And I thought. And they rejected me. But I. I also just. I loved painting because it sort of. And I didn't really realize it at the time, but I. It gave me a headset space to go into where I would really sort of lose track of time. I guess I now sort of know that as the flow state, or, you know, essentially a very focused but challenging but flowy state of mind. But I knew I could be very solitary when I was painting and drawing, and I didn't need anybody. And somehow acting felt like it would bring me out of myself a bit more. So I sort of. Even though I knew I was sort of talented at art, I sort of let it go and I sort of pursued acting. And so it wasn't really until the pandemic where I kind of. I couldn't act anymore. I was in the middle of filming Loki, first season of Loki in Atlanta, and we were on hiatus for five months in the end, and I was digging out an old cupboard, and I found a set of paints that had been neglected. And I just started painting. And it felt like it was my creative expression in that time of having all of this creative energy that couldn't go anywhere with the acting. And so I sort of sprung a leak back into painting. And it had been years since I'd done it, and I really had this very focused several months of doing portraits of my friends and doing portraits of, you know, figures in culture and in the news and things that were really just inspiring me at that time. And it just reminded me of that focus that I'd had and just what a sort of therapeutic experience it was to paint.
- [28:39]
Elizabeth Day
You mentioned there that you started off painting pictures from. I think it was your phone library for family and friends. And then your attention was drawn to the news and specifically, Black Lives Matter.
- [28:51]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
That's right.
- [28:52]
Elizabeth Day
And the horrendous and tragic murder of George Floyd. And you painted a portrait of him and then of other people. Breonna Taylor.
- [29:00]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Yes.
- [29:01]
Elizabeth Day
And what was it about them that made it important for you to paint their faces?
- [29:08]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Well, I was painting every day at that point, you know, and I was in the rhythm of sitting down and painting, and as you said, you know, from my camera roll of friends that I wanted to see but couldn't see because we were, you know, also isolated at the time. And then I think in that time, it was such a crazy time, but such a focused time as well. And I felt like seeing that murder that happened and, you know, all the imagery around it, the most natural way for me to process it was to. To paint it. It just felt like that was a way also of slowing down everything that was seemingly happening in the world and just this veil that had been pulled across or away from the idea of America and the idea of the world we're living in. And actually just the cracks beneath all of that were being revealed. And so for me, it was sort of a way to. To process that and also just slow time down and sort of metabolize those ideas. Whilst we couldn't leave our homes, we couldn't really walk along the street. And people would cross the street to avoid you if you were just taking your daily walk. I mean, it was such a bizarre time, but it was also an opportunity, I think, for me to sort of raise awareness for that issue. You know, I auctioned some of the paintings for those charities, and it just felt like a way to be active, creatively active in a time when we were, you know, so separate from each other.
- [30:46]
Elizabeth Day
I think you put that so beautifully. And I wonder if part of it also is when someone finds themselves at the center of a news story and then a global movement. You can sometimes forget their individuality almost. They become a political moment rather than a human person. And I think that you're. Portraits, from what I've seen of them online, really did such a profound job of giving them back their individuality.
- [31:17]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Oh, well, thank you. Yeah, it's. I hadn't thought of it in that way, but I think there is something about portraiture. It's kind of weird and unnatural, the intensity of which you will look at somebody when you're going to paint them. You would never look at somebody that intensely or for that long in real life.
- [31:33]
Elizabeth Day
Yeah.
- [31:34]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Staring at an image, staring at somebody's face for sort of four hours, you would never do that. It's too weird, it's too intense. But to be able to do that, it's. It's intimate. It's like a connection with that person. You see the details, the grooves in their eyes and their forehead and the light, how the light catches in their irises and all of those kind of details in a way, like acting. It's. You know, you are still kind of painting a portrait of somebody. Just you're using your. You're not using a brush. It's not going onto paper or a canvas. You are using yourself. It's a portrait of a character that you're creating. So I sort of see the link of that, you know, the. The psychology of somebody and. And what makes them tick and how their face can tell a story. I think they're sort of connected in a way. Have you ever painted a self portrait not for ages. I used to do that a lot when I was. When I was doing my art A level. I have had a massive self portrait that I did of myself kind of in a box, like trying to push out of this box, I think. And it was such a big. A big portrait. And I was like naked in this or nude in this box. And yeah, it was so big I didn't even take it home because it wouldn't have fitted in our house. So I think it still belongs. It's still at the school or. I don't know if they recycled it or I just left it in the art block in the end.
- [32:59]
Elizabeth Day
Isn't it interesting that I started your introduction saying that you defy categorization as an actor and there's this clearly this recurring theme, this part of you which is like, don't box me in. Yes.
- [33:11]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Oh, my God. I hadn't thought of that. I hadn't thought of that. And I was doing that when I was 17.
- [33:16]
Elizabeth Day
Wow. Did you feel boxed in? I mean, I know I'm taking this.
- [33:20]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Super literally and it was like our A level. No, no. But I think it did come from some, you know, we were studying the Expressionists at the time and I think, you know, it was coming from an expression of emotion. And I think I probably felt like I was ready to leave my hometown. You know, I mean, I was ready to leave my hometown when I was 12. I did ask my mum if I could go to drama school when I was 12.
- [33:39]
Elizabeth Day
Have you ever felt boxed in in your professional life in this industry, which I imagine it takes quite a long time to change? I mean, we spoke at the beginning about how you feel the change is now coming and it's positive. But I imagine there must have been times along the way where you did feel you were being offered certain parts or did you feel boxed in in that way?
- [34:01]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
I mean, never boxed in, but I think probably frustrated at the pace of change at times. I think that when I did Belle, I was sort of. It was such a life changing role for me and such a life changing lead role moment. And I did beyond the Lights after that, which actually didn't come out in the uk, but was out in the us and then I was sort of like, okay, where's my next lead role? And it didn't. You know, I think the next couple of things I did, I sort of played the wife of two big movie stars, you know, like Matthew McConaughey and Free State of Jones and Will Smith in Concussion. And as much as that Those were great jobs and I learned a lot from working with, you know, actors and movie stars of their caliber. The roles themselves weren't as meaty as I had hoped. You know, after Belle and Beyond the Lights, I had hoped that, well, then there'll be more of the same. And similarly to passing that ballet exam, you just sort of expect that that's the next step. And that sort of felt like not a sideways step because those were big movies in their own way. But I think certainly I made a promise after those films that I wasn't going to play any more wife roles in that way. And, you know, and both movies had interesting conversations around them, you know, and, you know, reconstruction in the time of slavery and, you know, basically brain damage in the NFL and, you know, so there was, there was stuff to talk around the projects, but I think I was very, very much looking for the next meaty role. And that didn't come as easily.
- [35:56]
Elizabeth Day
No. And it's a brave decision to make in many ways because it opens you up to not getting those roles. You have to have a certain level of self possession to be able to do that and to navigate the course of your career. And so that's very impressive.
- [36:12]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Oh, thanks. Well, I think I just also have this awareness that, you know, we don't have endless amounts of time. And I think when you commit to a film or a TV project, sometimes you're getting up at 4:30 in the morning or earlier, you know, you're living away from home and you're committing hours and hours of your life to tell a story. And so you want that to be worth it. At the end of the day, you've.
- [36:39]
Elizabeth Day
Worked, as you mentioned there, with some amazing co stars. Will Smith, Matthew McConaughey, but also Jennifer Aniston, Kiefer Sutherland. You don't have to name names. Have you ever worked with a terrible co star? Like who? Like. No, I just can't carry on doing this job.
- [36:55]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Yeah, I can't. I can't name names, but I've. I've. I've met a couple. I've worked with maybe one or two people who I've. I've seen behavior, you know, just behavior where. And you can see how it happens where people get surrounded by other people that nobody ever says no to them, that they are given a sense of sort of grandiosity and then, you know, they'll be tired or ready for lunch and suddenly somebody will snap and it'll be, you know, in front of a child actor or something, and you're Thinking how can that level of awareness, how can you not realize that that child is absorbing everything you're doing and idolizes you and you have just, you know, had a tantrum in front of them. There's only been a few moments like that. But I'm always very aware, certainly as an actor and as a leading actor now that I am a leading actor, you know, on a TV show, you know, everybody's looking to you to set the tone. And I think. And it's, it's in a subconscious way. You know, you set, you set the pace, you set the energy, you set what's acceptable on set. You, you know, you set all of that and end and, and if you allow, you know, a certain kind of energy or a certain kind of behavior, it sort of, it trickles down from the top in that way. And I've seen it happen.
- [38:20]
Elizabeth Day
Very interesting because as someone who's never been on a set, it's, it's so interesting to understand that the magnitude of that, of that lack of self awareness and I know exactly what you're describing because I've sort of been in that. Not me personally, obviously, but I've been adjacent to that sort of bubble of entitlement. And it's a very specific flavour. And you seem to me to stand in total opposition to all of that. And so I imagine it's a great set surface. Must be a great set to be on.
- [38:51]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
I hope so, I hope so. I mean, it was challenging because we had a five month Oliver Jackson Kerwin.
- [38:56]
Elizabeth Day
Was he a nightmare?
- [38:57]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
A nightmare?
- [38:57]
Elizabeth Day
Absolute nightmare.
- [38:58]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Yeah, nightmare. But, you know, it was tough, you know, because we did have a long hiatus with the actors strike, the SAG strike and the writer's strike right in the middle of filming for five months to be able to feel like team leader, to kind of pick the momentum up again and say, okay guys, we're going to finish this. You know, we're still here. And, and you know, knowing at a time in the industry where, you know, after Covid and then the strikes, you know, a lot of people were losing their jobs and just leaving the industry because they couldn't be without a job for a month, not able to pay the rent, not able to kind of, you know, exist when a lot of shows shut down, not knowing when they were coming back. So I do feel a sense of responsibility in that way, not just to the other actors, but also to the crew. Eczema isn't always obvious, but it's real. And so is the relief from Evglis after an initial dosing phase about 4 in 10 people people taking EBGLIS achieved itch relief and clear or almost clear skin at 16 weeks, and most of those people maintain skin that's still more clear at one year with monthly dosing.
- [40:12]
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- [40:46]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
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- [41:24]
Elizabeth Day
Your final failure. It's such a brilliant one and I hate to name drop again, but I'm going to Jamie Dornan had the same one when he came on how to Fail. Yes, he's the only other person.
- [41:35]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Okay, don't worry.
- [41:37]
Elizabeth Day
It's a good group to be in. It's your failure to stay still. But I wonder if you mean it in a different way. What do you mean when you say failure to stay still?
- [41:46]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
I think that I am very busy and I think that I am very curious and I think that sometimes I wish I could slow time down a little bit. And you know, and I, I, I've meditated and I've done yoga and written in a journal and you know, I've done all these things that help me kind of slow time down a bit. But I also realized that I am maybe just a little bit more sort of antsy and restless than a lot of people. Not a lot of people in our industry, but. But I feel like I. I sometimes think, how on earth did I get through school? Because I can't really even barely sit in a chair now with. Without, you know, for a day or, you know, if I have to sit on Zoom or sit in front of a laptop, I don't know how to do it. I'm so, as I say, not restless in. In a sort of a flippant, irritable way, but, I mean, I guess I'm just curious about the world and I feel like I've still got so much to do.
- [42:57]
Elizabeth Day
Yes, I know exactly what you mean. And that's different from Jamie Dornan, so you'll still. Unique.
- [43:01]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
How was his?
- [43:02]
Elizabeth Day
His was literally just I jiggle my leg loose and it drives my wife mad. Okay.
- [43:08]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
That's the kind of nervous energy that's not going somewhere.
- [43:10]
Elizabeth Day
Yes, yes. But I completely relate to what you're saying. And to me, it sounds like. I mean, I don't know if this resonates, but this is, I think, where I come to with my own drive. I suppose it is. Is a curious. A sort of relentless curiosity combined with an awareness that life is finite.
- [43:28]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Yes. And it can be great, but it can also be a problem. I think it can force you to kind of overachieve and not appreciate the time, you know, or not, you know, and so I'm very aware of it. But I also feel like there is. It's also. I feel like the work sometimes is a place to sort of channel my rage as well. You know, I put it all in there. I put all that. All of the energy that I have goes into the work that I do because I feel, you know, there's certain things in the world that I can't control. But I feel like, you know, the stories that I tell and how I spend my energy is down to me and the energy I bring into a space. So. Yeah, I don't know if it's a. A failure exactly, but it's sort of. It's. It's one of those things that I'm sort of curious about myself about, like, why am I like that?
- [44:22]
Elizabeth Day
But does it give you time to pursue relationships, other relationships in your, like, friendships or.
- [44:27]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Yeah, and I work really hard at that, I think. You know, I'm very aware, Having lived in LA for nearly 10 years, you know, between 2010 and 2020, pretty much, you know, I Became very aware and sort of going into these projects where sometimes you're in New Orleans for six months doing a TV show and then you're, you know, in Albuquer, you're in Bristol, then you're in Jamaica or, you know, wherever, wherever you are, that if you don't make the effort with your friendships, they will fall away. And, and so I, I have been very committed to, to making the time for my friends and my family when, when I'm around and you know, trying to kind of stay, stay in touch. Not just stay in touch like in terms of being together, but just be in each other's lives, you know. And really. And it's, it's a challenge sometimes because I think it's, you know, the make believe world can be intoxicating. And then the other side of the industry, you know, when you've made the project, the publicity and the red carpet and the fashion and, you know, all of that side of things is, is almost like another job as well and sort of takes you away from reality sometimes.
- [45:45]
Elizabeth Day
What I appreciate about your three failures is that they are so positive. Ultimately the outcome is so positive. Your failure to be a ballet dancer has made you the actor you are, which we're all so grateful for. Your failure to be painter isn't really a failure because you are a painter. I mean, you have been painting.
- [46:01]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Yes.
- [46:01]
Elizabeth Day
And your failure to stay still is the, is the thing that keeps you question. So basically, in summary, you're a perfect human.
- [46:10]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Not true. Not true. Well, I, again, and it's, I think it's all about how you look at these things, isn't it? It's all about how you frame them. And I think things that maybe felt like a failure in the moment, you know, I love what you say about redirecting you because I think that is something I've really learned in life. Not to say that there isn't ever such a thing as a failure. But I think some things, I truly believe some things are meant for you and some things are not meant for you. And I think you have to kind of cultivate that as an actor because there's just so much rejection. You're like, all right, it wasn't meant for me. The stars weren't aligning. And you know, so I don't know if it's just self preservation to have that relentless positivity, but I, I feel like, you know, and I've had some crushing disappointments and you know, you don't get to this point in life without going through sad and challenging and weird things, but I choose to sort of try and learn from them and try and try and see what they were there to teach me.
- [47:18]
Elizabeth Day
Beautiful. And you're dispensing more advice like that on Failing with Friends because you're going to stick around and answer listener questions. But for now, I. I can't thank you enough for coming on how to Fail. Thank you so much.
- [47:28]
Gugu Mbatha-Raw
Thank you for having me.
- [47:29]
Elizabeth Day
Please do follow how to Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends this is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.