← How To Fail With Elizabeth Day
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- [00:00]
Elizabeth Day
I know from experience that starting your own business can be super intimidating and can feel really isolating. So I empathize with those of you who are currently feeling that way. However, I've got a tool for you that can simplify everything and make you feel less alone for millions of businesses. That tool is Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Mattel to brands Just getting started. Get started with your own design studio. With hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store to match your brand style. Turn your big business idea into With Shopify on your side, sign up for your pound one per month trial and start selling today at shopify.co.uk fail go to shopify.co.uk fail fail.
- [01:02]
State Farm Announcer
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Checking off the boxes on your to do list is a great feeling. And when it comes to checking off coverage, a State Farm agent can help you choose an option that's right for you. Whether you prefer talking in person on the phone or using the award winning app, it's nice knowing you have help finding coverage that best fits your needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.
- [01:28]
Elizabeth Day
How to Date is proudly sponsored by Morrisons. Welcome to this very special bonus episode of how to Date. You've been with us for eight weeks now and you'll know that this is the podcast that helps you navigate modern romance. I'm podcaster and author Elizabeth Day.
- [01:48]
Mel Shilling
And I'm Mel Shilling, relationship coach. And for this bonus episode we reached out and asked you what burning questions you have when it comes to dating.
- [01:59]
Elizabeth Day
Just say we had a very full post bag. Thank you to everyone who wrote in. We're going to be answering just as many as we can today. So should we get started?
- [02:07]
Mel Shilling
Mel well, I'm ready if you are.
- [02:10]
Elizabeth Day
Let's do it. Okay, so the first question we have is from Peachy. What a lovely Instagram username. I love that Peachy And Peachy asks how as a fearful avoidant, I hyper independent through many, many letdowns person do you learn to be open?
- [02:31]
Mel Shilling
Oh, what a description. Wow. I'm sure there's lots of people who can relate to a self description like that one. Oh gosh. I guess the first thing that comes up for me Peachy. Reading your self description is you've got a lot of pain, haven't you? I can.
- [02:49]
Elizabeth Day
I can hear this.
- [02:50]
Mel Shilling
I can feel it from the way you're describing Yourself. And I wonder if the first question back to you, Peachy, would be, do you actually feel like you're ready to be open? I don't know. I don't know. I would ask you to perhaps reflect on that, because if you are describing yourself in this way, would you rather spend a little bit more time on you?
- [03:15]
Elizabeth Day
Yes. Gosh, that took me so deep so quickly. Mel, I was like. And this is why she is who she is. Thank you for answering it like that. I also want to say, peachy, I'm so sorry that you've had so many letdowns. And that's such a horrible experience when you feel that you put your faith in something or someone and it doesn't turn out how you expected or in the way that you hoped. And so I think we both want to acknowledge that feeling of disappointment and, as Mel says, of pain. And I think Mel's totally right, that. That we don't have to bounce back immediately. If you've experienced rejection or letdown, there will be a necessary period of grieving, that of mourning what you've lost. Not every loss is as big or as small as the last one. So I think it's up to you to work out an appropriate amount of time. And sometimes we never get over rejection or loss. Sometimes it becomes part of us, but. But it can be part of us in a really beautiful and helpful way. It can become part of us that makes us more vulnerable. It can become part of us in a way that might meet that need in someone else. Maybe someone else has also experienced similar things, and that will be the point where you connect, and that might make whatever relationship comes from that stronger. And so I think it's really important not to beat yourself up about the way that you're feeling first off. And then the second thing I would say, and we've touched on this during the podcast, that again, you don't have to make the big decisions straight away. You can start small. Once you're ready, you can start experimenting with small tiptoes into the direction of being more open again. Whether that is, as Mel said on a previous episode, saying hello to the barista who makes your coffee in the morning, smiling at someone who is walking their dog in the park, having a chat with the postman. Just having those small moments of interconnection and vulnerability can really help you build up again to trusting that there are good people out there.
- [05:27]
Mel Shilling
Couldn't have said it better myself.
- [05:29]
Elizabeth Day
That's the ultimate compliment. Peachy, thank you so much for writing in. And we Wish you the best of luck.
- [05:36]
Mel Shilling
Our second question today comes from Kate. Does age matter?
- [05:42]
Elizabeth Day
Kate, we had so many questions, actually, about age and life stage. And I suppose my answer to this is multifaceted. On the one hand, I think, no, it shouldn't matter in the sense that I think you fall in love with the person and the context in which you meet them and how that has shaped them. But. But it does matter if you are at vastly different life stages. And so I think that's what you need to get honest with yourself about. It's about whether you think that there will be a deeper conflict beyond what the number is attached to how many years you've been on this earth. That is to do with the stage you are at in life and the stage that your potential partner is at in life, and is that ever overcomeable. And that's something that only you can decide in conversation with them.
- [06:37]
Mel Shilling
I think you've hit on such an important point there. It's not about age, it's about stage. You know, you could have two people who are exactly the same age, but one might be ready for a family, the other might be ready to travel the world. You know, you might not have those things aligned. And it can be helpful here to look at four ifs. We love an F word here at how to date.
- [06:59]
Elizabeth Day
Yes, we do.
- [07:00]
Mel Shilling
If you think about things like finance, family, fitness and freedom.
- [07:06]
Elizabeth Day
Oh, that's so good.
- [07:08]
Mel Shilling
Where are.
- [07:09]
Elizabeth Day
And fuckability number five, let's add that in there too, for good measure. And the feel good factor, we'll add in that too.
- [07:16]
Mel Shilling
Where is each partner at in regard to those things? And those tend to give you a good sense of life stage. You know, if you just take finances, for example, one person might be at a stage in their life and career where they're ready to get serious, maybe to invest in property or something else. Maybe they're saving for something important, whereas the other person might be wanting to just go out and drink and buy clothes and have a totally different set of values where it comes to finance. And you can see if you go through each of those same with family, freedom, fitness. So it can just be a nice little self test to kind of check in and see where are we both at in relation to these big ticket items?
- [08:00]
Jonathan Van Ness
Hey, everyone, it's Jonathan Van Ness. If my dogs could talk, they'd be like, excuse me, Queen, where's my ollie? You better make it rain, diva, because we are not going to cuddle with you or anything if you don't get us our ollie and Honestly, I can't blame them. Listen to titles of these little foods. It sounds like it'd be on a brunch menu. Fresh beef with sweet potatoes. Fresh turkey with blueberries. My dogs are eating better than I do and I'm obsessed with that. Here's the best part. Ollie is the only fresh dog food with unlimited health screenings. You better screen your dog. Dogs deserve the best, and that means fresh, healthy food. Head to ollie.com better tell them all about your dog and use code better to get 60% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today. Plus, they offer a happiness guarantee on the first box. So if you're not completely satisfied, you'll get your money back. That's O l l I e.com better. And enter code better to get 60% off your first box. When you listen to Nobody Listens to Paula Poundstone, the comedy podcast, you learn stuff.
- [09:08]
Mel Shilling
I've been learning to throw a boomerang.
- [09:10]
Elizabeth Day
Cause this is the kind of thing that really gets the listeners engaged.
- [09:13]
Jonathan Van Ness
You know, interviews with people who will make you smarter.
- [09:17]
Elizabeth Day
Does the amount that you learn protect you from cognitive decline? Paula, don't catch that. Can't people just listen to the show? Can't they just enjoy a delightful treehouse full of information? And I think I'm bleeding.
- [09:31]
Jonathan Van Ness
Join us and be a nobody.
- [09:38]
Elizabeth Day
Okay, one here from Maria. Do exes deserve a second chance in your life?
- [09:44]
Mel Shilling
Oh, Maria, I love this.
- [09:46]
Elizabeth Day
Such a good question.
- [09:47]
Mel Shilling
And this is one we hear all the time. And I love it because if you were to jump into everybody's WhatsApp group messages, I think this one would come up a lot. Or at cocktails or at coffees. This is such a hot topic because there's this sense of what if I've missed the potential greatest love of my life? You know, and people have these ideas of fast forwarding to the end of your life and being on your deathbed and looking back and thinking, oh, did I miss the great love of my life? So there's something, I think very romantic and almost fantasy like tied in with this idea of going back to an ex. But let's be real here. It's not just fantasy. There's a whole lot of realness as well. I think you've got to start with, why did you break up? Because it's very easy to get those rose colored glasses on down the track, isn't it? And to look back and think, oh, I only remember the nice times. But, but there were reasons that you broke up. So I think it's important to keep Those top of mind. And then to ask the question, have those issues that led to the breakup changed? Are they still there? Are you essentially dipping into the definition of insanity by trying to do the same thing and get a different outcome? Or do you know that both you and your former partner have done some work, have moved on, have addressed some of those issues that led to the breakup? If that's the case, maybe it's worth another try.
- [11:17]
Elizabeth Day
There is a very human tendency to think, well, what if, and especially if you're feeling unhappy or dissatisfied in some way in your current status, whether that's in a relationship or single, it's only natural that you might look back at past relationships and think, oh, what if I had, we had made a different choice, made a different decision, Maybe that was it. Maybe that was the solution. And Mel is right, it is a story you are telling yourself. And stories can be very blinkered to facts. And first of all, I want to salute you for having an imagination that is capable of telling this kind of story. What a wonderful quality that is. But just remind yourself that ultimately, if that relationship were going to work, I'm a firm believer that it would have done that you would therefore still be in it. The fact that you're not in it speaks to me that something went awry and that one or other of you or both of you were not the right fit. And ultimately, if someone has acted in a way that has hurt you, I don't think that you can separate their actions from their character. The only mild exception to this rule, I think, is if you had a teenage relationship that because of where you were at in terms of life, stage and maturity, maybe didn't go anywhere. Like maybe you left school, just passed and crossed again. Sometimes I think maybe those exes might deserve a second chance.
- [12:46]
Mel Shilling
Or it's an ex where you have both done the work, whatever led to the problems have been solved and you've moved on.
- [12:54]
Elizabeth Day
True. Brene Brown says that you can have five marriages with the same person. And I don't think she means that literally as in getting divorced and getting married again. But you're right, maybe you did split up and maybe you have done the work and maybe you're in a slightly different place now and you've evolved a bit as individuals.
- [13:11]
Mel Shilling
Number five comes from Jo tips on dating a same sex partner who's not ready to come out.
- [13:19]
Elizabeth Day
Jo, thank you so much for writing in with this. This is a very, very tricky one to navigate. Yes, on the one hand, I think it's incredibly important to Be supportive of your partner and respectful of where they are on their journey with their own sexuality. And as long as they are showing up as themselves with you and you feel confident in that, I think that it is not only okay, but advisable to give them a bit of time. And it's really up to the two of you, I think, to navigate that within your relationship. And I would be as clear as possible, in as loving a way as possible, saying to your partner how this makes you feel, because the potential is that it might make you feel, Jo, like you are a grubby little secret or someone that they are ashamed to be with. And I'm pretty sure that that's not what's going on for them. What's going on for them might be any number of triggers from the past, dysfunctional relationships within their family unit. And the. They are taking some time to work out how to handle that. And so I think it's about clear and loving communication, but also making it very clear that you don't want to live as a secret in their lives forever. And maybe flagging that and giving a time limit on that that you, you don't even need to vocalise it, but just that you're aware of in your head that you would have liked to have seen some evolution, some that makes you feel at the centre of their love.
- [15:10]
Mel Shilling
That was beautiful. I think the only thing I would add would be for you, Jo, thinking in terms of your own priorities and values in your life. How important is it to you to have a partner who is out and proud with you? If this is something that is of utmost importance, is that going to lead to, you know, heartbreak for you? If it's not that high on your priorities? For example, if something like being in a beautiful, positive, loving relationship is more important than that, then this might be something that slips down the priority list. So I guess just thinking about that in terms of all those big important things in the relationship, how high on the hierarchy would your partner being out sit?
- [15:59]
Elizabeth Day
Yes, it goes back to those global personal red flag deal breakers that we discussed in episode five. We wish you luck, Jo. Thank you for writing in. Okay, this one's from Anonymous. If I'm meeting someone for the first time and they're already inside ordering a drink or they're already looking at the menu when I arrive, I immediately write them off as a no. Am I too judgmental? Yes. Next.
- [16:30]
Mel Shilling
What'S going on here? Anonymous? Let's try and understand this. So is Anonymous feeling that he or she is not important enough for them to wait.
- [16:41]
Elizabeth Day
Oh, that's interesting.
- [16:43]
Mel Shilling
Do you think?
- [16:44]
Elizabeth Day
Or are they thinking that their date is gluttonous and just needs to get the drinking food down them? That's. I think that's. Yes. Your psychological insight is far more acute there, Mel. And maybe that is what's going on. Maybe. I think that's so interesting because, Anonymous, what that flags is that maybe you need to look at what response that's triggering for you. Like, where is that coming from?
- [17:08]
Mel Shilling
Your own sense of self worth.
- [17:10]
Elizabeth Day
Yes, exactly.
- [17:11]
Mel Shilling
Yeah.
- [17:12]
Elizabeth Day
But I do think there's so much judgment in modern dating. There's so much kind of fear of the ick where as soon as someone does something or wears the wrong kind of sock or whatever it is, we write them off. And I wonder if that's getting something slightly more deeper rooted, which is we live in a culture where there is an illusion of endless choice. And that can feel so overwhelming sometimes, especially if you're on the dating apps. Especially if you believe that we exist in a sort of swipe right, swipe left society where everything is transient and we're constantly looking for the thing that is perfect or better. Maybe that's also playing into this.
- [17:55]
Mel Shilling
So I think there is something there for Anonymous, isn't there, about judgment?
- [17:59]
Elizabeth Day
Yes.
- [17:59]
Mel Shilling
I think there might also be something about self talk. I wonder. Anonymous, when you're arriving to this restaurant or cafe or bar and you're seeing this person already getting on with the business of having dinner, what are you telling yourself? What is the story that you're telling yourself? Are you actually saying, oh, well, why should I even bother? He or she's already having dinner. It's not like it matters whether I'm there or not. Or are you saying they're a glutton?
- [18:29]
Elizabeth Day
Look at them.
- [18:30]
Mel Shilling
All they can do is eat. They don't care about me. What is it that's going on for you, and are you overthinking it?
- [18:37]
Elizabeth Day
Yes.
- [18:38]
Mel Shilling
Is it just a hungry person who's waiting for you?
- [18:40]
Elizabeth Day
Yes.
- [18:41]
Mel Shilling
You know, sometimes a headache is just a headache.
- [18:43]
Elizabeth Day
I wonder, is it also that you think that's rude or impolite in some way?
- [18:49]
Mel Shilling
Right. Is this a values clash?
- [18:51]
Elizabeth Day
Yes, exactly. And I'm not judging you, Anonymous, for thinking that's rude, but who has told you that that is rude? And is it someone whose life you want to emulate?
- [19:00]
Mel Shilling
Mm, good question. Is this from Family fm? Do you know I love this. One of my mentors taught me this. When you're thinking about your own self talk going on in your Head. And sometimes it's your family's expectations and the shoulds showing up. You can just change the station.
- [19:20]
Elizabeth Day
Yes.
- [19:20]
Mel Shilling
Change it from Family FM to me.
- [19:22]
Elizabeth Day
FM could take it to DAB. We're in 2025. Exactly.
- [19:26]
Mel Shilling
The world's your oyster.
- [19:27]
Elizabeth Day
Yeah. It's really made me think about whether. Cause I went for dinner the other day, totally platonic, and the person I was meeting was running slightly late and I ordered myself a drink. Is that rude?
- [19:39]
Mel Shilling
Anonymous might think so.
- [19:40]
Elizabeth Day
I know Anonymous. Was it you? Was it you who I went for dinner with? Brian? Did you write in? Oh, that was so funny. Okay, well, thank you so much for writing in. Okay, the next one is from Aish.
- [19:52]
Mel Shilling
I'm 30. And always immediately, subconsciously try to figure out if they are the one. And those words were capitalised thoughts.
- [20:02]
Elizabeth Day
Oh, Aisha, I think we've all been there.
- [20:04]
Mel Shilling
Yes.
- [20:05]
Elizabeth Day
Again, it goes back to the previous questioner. First of all, I want to salute you for having a wonderful, fertile imagination and a brain that is capable of telling you brilliant stories, because that means that you have it within your power to. To imagine your future and possibly to manifest it. So that's a really, really wonderful superpower. I also, secondly, want to say, don't shame yourself for having these thoughts. The very fact that you can acknowledge them, that you are aware enough to realize that's what you're doing, is a really healthy sign. And actually, I think, again, it's very human to be a certain age and to think, can I see myself with this person? Particularly when you're entering your 30s, there's this myth that you turn 30 and then that's your decade for sorting everything out. And both Mel and I can speak to the fact that we met our people in our late 30s, and so life actually isn't a race. But your 30s, particularly if you are a cisgendered woman and you want to have children, they are a really difficult decade to navigate, trying to silence that voice that society has placed in there. And our own biology is placed in there, which tells us that. That we need to find someone to settle down with and to have our family with. And I would encourage you as much as possible, to slightly separate that, because sometimes it can cloud your judgment when you do meet someone and you decide to ignore all of the red or pink flags because you are so, so keen to make it work in time. And actually, I want you to know that we have been sold this myth that age diminishes us as women. And my experiences, absolutely the opposite. I feel more and more powerful and more and more myself. And that's something to bear in mind as well.
- [21:58]
Mel Shilling
Yeah, absolutely. I love that you're self aware enough to reflect and realize that this is the thought you're having going into a date. Not everyone's aware of that. So that's good. This is a good thing. It also tells me that you know what your dating goal is. You want a relationship. You want a serious, committed, long term relationship with. Great. That's half the battle won in many ways because now that you know what you want, you can essentially retrofit the steps that you take back to where you are now. So check in on your self talk. Are you so fixated on the potential of this person being the one that you're not actually enjoying the moment? That would be my question for you. Because it's easy to become preoccupied with the future at the expense of the present. So give yourself that opportunity to enjoy the moment, to just be curious and get to know this person as they are in front of you in the moment. I think a challenge here would be to somehow separate out what you want in the future from what you're experiencing in the present. It probably feels very natural to conflate those together and that can be very confusing. Try to separate them.
- [23:11]
Elizabeth Day
And I would also say if someone is going to be the person that you want to pursue a long term relationship with and who does offer you the things that you've identified that you want. The decision about whether to be a one is not yours alone. So you can't approach something with magical thinking and determine that this person will be the one. If only you do all of these things. And therefore, as Mel says, you need to stay curious in the present and you need to allow the other person space for them to come forward. And it's going to be a co created thing if you are each other's ones. How helpful. Mel, just a question from Eday Listener Is this entire concept of the One.
- [23:55]
Mel Shilling
I personally don't think it's that helpful because it's that binary thinking of all or nothing and I think it can lead to people putting a lot of pressure on themselves and on their partner or potential partners. Whereas if you look at it as though, you know, in a lifetime there might be a handful of wonderful people that I can connect with on a really, really deep level and have beautiful, highly compatible relationships with, then it takes a bit of that pressure off and I think it keeps your feet on the ground.
- [24:26]
Elizabeth Day
Yeah. And I think that might also help. So thank you, Aisha. For your question. And actually that's a sort of seamless link into the next question because we got so many questions from people who are d. Post divorce. A lot of people who are navigating, dating with children and finding that understandably challenging. And one here from Amy, who says dating post divorce alongside turning 60. Most men of my age want a nurse.
- [24:57]
Mel Shilling
You don't want to wipe anyone's bum.
- [24:59]
Elizabeth Day
No. I mean, unless it's a consensual sexual practice.
- [25:02]
Mel Shilling
No kink shaming here. But, Amy, I don't think that's what you want.
- [25:06]
Elizabeth Day
No.
- [25:07]
Mel Shilling
And I. I do hear this from people, not just women, people of a certain age who are looking around at their peers and getting the ick.
- [25:17]
Elizabeth Day
Yes.
- [25:17]
Mel Shilling
You know, particularly if you're a person who is very young at heart, who's really virile and energetic and, you know, you still want to travel the world, and all of a sudden you've got your life back, perhaps your kids have moved out, they've become more independent, and you've got this whole freedom and future opening up before you. You don't want to be tied down to someone who is ready to hang up their boots.
- [25:42]
Elizabeth Day
No.
- [25:43]
Mel Shilling
It's about stage again, isn't it? What we were talking about earlier, not necessarily age, because we know, you know, that once you. You are 60 and above, people age at very different paces, don't they? Depending on health and wellness and so on. You wanna be with someone who shares the stage of life you're at and the. The goals, I guess, in life.
- [26:04]
Elizabeth Day
Yes. And the mindset. You're so right. I think also there's something about dating post divorce because many of the people who've written in have been married for sometimes, you know, 20 plus years. And I know I can completely empathize. It feels so scary because you feel like you're navigating an entirely new world. And then if you have to factor in children as well, there's a whole layer of complexity. So, first of all, I just want to say well done for showing up vulnerable and taking this chance that something different might happen next. Another way of packaging that is to look at it as opportunity, that these are uncharted territories. And that is also a blank canvas on which you can paint a different kind of future. And actually, the flip side of anxiety can sometimes be excitement. And perhaps it's time to get excited about what happens next.
- [27:02]
Mel Shilling
I love this for you, Amy. You have a really exciting opportunity here. And I think the very fact that you've written in and you're Engaging with us here tells us that you are really enthusiastic about making this work. I have an idea for you, Amy. Wouldn't it be amazing if you could surround yourself with some hand picked people? Let's call it your dating squad. And imagine if you had someone in their 50s, their 40s, their 30s and their 20s obsessed with this idea. Wouldn't this be great to get advice from all of those people of the different decades and generations? Because you're new to this current dating world, aren't you, in terms of the rules, the roles, the tech. Oh, the tech. And maybe there's a child or a grandchild that you can include in there who can help you out with some of the technical side of it. Wouldn't it be great to just get get all of that wisdom from all of those generations about dating to give you a head start as you jump into this next exciting chapter?
- [28:05]
Elizabeth Day
Yes, that's a great idea. I also just wanted to add a thought here about dating with kids. I think just be open about it from the outset. Don't do what they do in Married at First Sight. Well, I imagine the producers are saying why don't you just reveal that you've got a kid after you've got married at the altar? Don't do that because I just think if someone has an issue with that, then they're not for you. And so just to be upfront and straightforward about it from the off.
- [28:41]
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- [29:11]
Elizabeth Day
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- [29:17]
Jonathan Van Ness
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- [29:18]
Elizabeth Day
Roger, wait. Is that an enterprise sales solution?
- [29:23]
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- [29:44]
Elizabeth Day
The next one is a really serious one. It's from Rajeev who asks about dating with a long term health condition, e.g. m or living with a catheter. How do you approach this in a relationship?
- [29:56]
Mel Shilling
Oh, Rajeev, this is a really tough one, but I'm so glad that you've brought it to us and I'VE gotta say, you know, given my recent experience with cancer and going through chemo, I've had a real taste of what it feels like to be living with a serious health issue. And whilst I wasn't dating during that time, I certainly thought about what would it be like? You know, there were times when I was in on the ward having, you know, infusions with a dozen other people and watching each of them with their loved ones coming and going and being a behavioral scientist or sitting there trying to figure out what their relationships were. And I did get to thinking about, how would it be if I was feeling like this in my body at the moment, which, by the way, didn't feel like my body at all. How would it be if I was dating, if I was putting myself out there? And I guess one of the things that came up for me was it felt like there were two of me, you know, the real me and the illness, as though they were two separate things. And I do wonder what that would be like if you were dating. And, of course, my experience with cancer has really been quite short, you know, compared to that, that a lot of people go through. And then if we're talking about Ms. Or Parkinson's or something that's degenerative, then, you know, you're living with that for the rest of your life. And in many ways, it is something that might be immediately noticeable. It might not be. I guess what comes up for me here, and I guess this is just sort of coming off my own experience recently, would be that I would lead with it straight away.
- [31:48]
Elizabeth Day
Would you?
- [31:48]
Mel Shilling
Yeah. I think there's something very disarming about saying to someone, this is what I'm going through, and this is my world. This is me right now. You know, when I started on my chemo process, people would constantly say to me, oh, you look so healthy. You look great. And at first I'd say, oh, I am great. I'm doing really well. And, you know, I just wanted to appear as though I was strong and coming off like I was managing everything. And as things progressed and I became more and more fatigued and sick, I made this conscious effort that I was gonna be honest when people asked me how I was doing. Having an illness is part of you, but it's also separate to you. So you can make a choice about the degree to which you bring that into your dating life. But wouldn't it be great if you could start with the end in mind? You know, you want to be with someone who has respect and compassion and empathy for You. So why not put it out there to start with and see straight away how they respond.
- [32:57]
Elizabeth Day
I'm so moved by that. I really am. I just want to have a moment of acknowledgement for what you've been through and how amazing you are to be able to talk about it in that way, which is modeling what you're suggesting, which is modeling this very empowering vulnerability that allows other people the chance to connect with you on that level. And I have nothing to add other than there are a couple of episodes of how to Fail that I think might help Rajeev. There is one with Miranda Hart where she talks about living with a chronic illness and she actually met her now husband whilst suffering from this. And her husband was the mould inspector who came to her house.
- [33:46]
Mel Shilling
So sexy.
- [33:47]
Elizabeth Day
I know. So there are actually still ways that you can meet people. And she said something very powerful in that episode, which is really what you have just echoed, which is she felt her illness was so difficult in so many ways and it also taught her that she just didn't have energy left over to pretend to be anything other than she was. The other episode I would point you to is Louise Thompson, who went through a series of incredibly serious health challenges after giving birth to her son and now lives with a catheter. And I think again, she is someone who just every single day lives in such a powerful way. Exactly as you say, Mel. It's part of her, but it also exists separately from her. Thank you. What? What an incredible exchange. Thank you for writing in, Rajeev. And thank you, Mel, for sharing.
- [34:37]
Mel Shilling
Okay, this next question comes to us from Talash. How to support or advise a friend who is perpetually single and has bad luck with dating.
- [34:47]
Elizabeth Day
This is such a good question and so generous. First of all, you sound like a lovely friend to lash. So gold star for that.
- [34:54]
Mel Shilling
Absolutely.
- [34:56]
Elizabeth Day
This is one that I do feel qualified to answer because I cannot tell you, you cannot conceive of what a jungle dating is unless you have done it in the last four to five years. I would say. I think it's so tough out there. And I think the best way to support your friend is to give them space to talk about what they're experiencing beyond the realms of humorous anecdote. Their responsibility is not to package everything up for your entertainment. Definitely try not to be sympathetic. I think empathy is always the way forward, but try not to come from a position of condescension. I don't know what your situation tash is, whether you are in a long term fulfilled relationship, but sometimes it can come across as a bit judgmental. If you're saying, oh, I wish you could, why can't you find someone? So actually, just being there to listen, being there as a sounding board is super helpful. Mel has spoken multiple times during this podcast about the necessity for people to check in with their friends and also being someone that your friend can have fun with and that, you know. Often the most difficult time when you're single is the weekend when it feels like all of your friends have their partners, they have their family lives involving your friend in some way, inviting them to things that you might not think of inviting them to because you might think they're couples only. I just think bringing a bit of fun and relaxation into their life away from dating, which can be a really exhausting experience. All of those are things that I think would be helpful. Plus the fact that you're listening to this podcast, hopefully that gives you insight too.
- [36:40]
Mel Shilling
I love that I can remember being single for a very long time. My entire 30s. And Sunday nights were the hardest for me, particularly when all my friends were coupled up and I knew that they were having a Sunday night dinner that was really difficult. So I think having a friends and family dinner once a week doesn't have to be Sunday night, but bringing a group of people together, including this single friend, so they just feel like part of the group. You know, it's very easy to feel separate and invalid as a single person because we live in a couple society.
- [37:17]
Elizabeth Day
And you don't always have to invite them round. You could just send them a text or a voice note and say, I'm thinking of you and I love you. That, I think, is very helpful, brilliant, and finally. I can't believe I'm saying finally, but it's a good one to end on, actually, because we don't want this to end and yet we know that it must end. This one is from Anonymous. What is the best way to tell someone you don't want to see them anymore?
- [37:41]
Mel Shilling
Oh, Anonymous, do you know what? I believe in a thing called dating karma. And this is about giving that person the feedback that they need to move on and have a more positive relationship next time round. This is hard. You gotta steel yourself for this because it's very tempting to just give a little bit of a polite explanation and move on, or to ghost them, as many people are doing at the moment. But wouldn't it take a little courage, a little bravery to actually say, things haven't really worked out the way we had hoped? I really enjoyed doing this with you. I think maybe in your next relationship you could think about perhaps not doing this next time. Wow. Sending love to you. And I wish you all the best with your future relationships.
- [38:34]
Elizabeth Day
That sounds brilliant. And yes, I'm confronted by it. At the same time, I'm feeling a.
- [38:39]
Mel Shilling
Little bit sick as I'm saying it.
- [38:41]
Elizabeth Day
Yeah. But I think what's so good about that is that you led with love and you ended with love. Every experience is worth something.
- [38:48]
Mel Shilling
And keep in mind that dating is not a solo pursuit and it doesn't happen within a social vacuum. It's a community. And if you have that community mindedness, then the idea of giving a little piece of feedback, real meaningful feedback, means that you could be actually making a sister or a brother's next date with that person even more positive.
- [39:11]
Elizabeth Day
That is a great place to end on dating as community because we really feel we've been part of such a special community doing this podcast. But really the most wonderful relationship of all. Mel, has been with you, my darling co host. I have loved every second I spent in your company. Thank you, thank you, thank you for sharing your expertise, your wisdom and your kindness. Oh, thank you so much.
- [39:36]
Mel Shilling
For me, the idea of coming here to sit with you as your partner in love and crime has been incredible.
- [39:44]
Elizabeth Day
I completely agree. Partner in love and crime, Mel Schilling. Thank you so, so much. And if you want any more information about how to date, then follow the website info that we will put in the show notes. There is a website that you can go to to download all of Mel's brilliant worksheets. And this is not the end. Let us just say farewell rather than goodbye. We're still with you in spirit. Good luck out there. Good luck in the dating pool.
- [40:11]
Mel Shilling
Signing off for now.
- [40:12]
Elizabeth Day
Lots of love. Lots of love. Bye. Bye.
- [40:15]
Mel Shilling
Bye.
- [40:18]
Elizabeth Day
How to Date is proudly sponsored by Morrisons. Thank you so much for listening to how to Date. This is a Daylight Productions and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast.