D (2:33)

Yes, absolutely.

A (2:34)

Can I just ask you about the concept, Mel? Do you think it's a useful one?

D (2:40)

I do, and I actually look at red flags in a slightly different way. I like to break them up into global red flags and personal red flags. Because if you think about it, there are some that are global. You know, some of those behaviors that a person might demonstrate on a date or even on a dating app that any rational person would say is a red flag. So things like being abusive or talking about violence in a glorified way, or you know, maybe you see a date being disrespectful to someone. You know, these are those kind of global bad behaviors that can only indicate that they're probably not going to lead to a positive relationship. So I think it's really helpful to think of the global red flags, but then also the personal ones. Personal ones will be much more linked to your own values and they'd be different for you and I. So if your highest value is, you know, around integrity, watching someone sit across from you at the table and lie is going to be a red flag.

A (3:41)

Yes. And I suppose, I mean, you've made it very clear there, but we should define what a red flag is for anyone who doesn't fully understand the concept. It is one of those signs, something that you pick up on in a relationship or in the early days of dating that just triggers some kind of uncomfortable response and that might signal that this relationship is not going to work out for whatever reason. Do you think that's an accurate definition?

D (4:07)

Yeah, and it's really a non negotiable for many people. And I think it's really smart to get very clear on what your deal breakers or clear red flags would be before going into relationships so that you're, well, firstly on the lookout for them. Not so that you can necessarily get too focused on them because it's easy to do that, but just so you've got a conscious awareness of them so that if they show up, you'll spot them straight away.

A (4:36)

So I want to tell a quick little story about a red flag that appeared in. I wouldn't even categorize this person as an ex, but someone that I was dating, which initially sounds trivial, but I'm going to explain why it isn't.

D (4:49)

Okay.

A (4:50)

This person was very full on from the off in a way that at the time I experienced as someone being into me. And I thought that was so refreshing and nice, but at the same time it made me feel under a lot of pressure. So by day three, he was talking about, you know, going on holiday together, what our lives would look like. And I thought that's sort of what I'd wanted, but it was making me feel uncomfortable even though I didn't admit that to myself. It all came to a head on the night of our, I think, third or fourth date when he came back to mine and he had stayed over before and he had decided that my bed was really uncomfortable. And he had lower back problems so he didn't want to sleep in my bed. So he turned up in his parents car bearing a camp bed. No. So he buzz not. He buzzes on the door. I let him up and he is carrying this sort of futon camp. He's like, listen, I just know that I'm not gonna sleep well. And so I've brought this camp bed. And so we had sex. And then he literally like rolled off and slept on this camp bed like a sort of faithful dog on the floor. And I woke up halfway through the night thinking, I cannot date. This, this man cannot be my boyfriend. He's brought a camp bed to sleep over. Now on the one hand I was like, isn't it good that he knows himself sufficiently, that he knows that he's got these lumber issues, that he has taken the measures necessary. On the other hand, I was thinking this is, this is a bit odd.

D (6:27)

Oh yeah.

A (6:28)

And a bit unusual and I need to pay attention to it. Combined with that feeling of being under overwhelming pressure. And the next morning I broke things off and he said something to me that I will never forget. He said, as long as you don't change your mind in six months because by that time your ovaries will have dried up and I won't be interested. And I was like, oh, now that.

D (6:48)

Is a red flag.

A (6:50)

And so sometimes I do think it's about paying attention to those moments, moments of intuition, they don't have to be camp beds, but those moments where you don't feel settled.

D (6:59)

Right. And we've talked a lot on this podcast about confidence and that sense of belief in your own intuition, haven't we? And that's a really classic example of where you need to do it if something like you were saying, it sounds like you were maybe being love bombed a little bit. He was really inundating you with these so called positive messages about how he felt about you, but you were feeling slightly off about it. That's one of those first warning signs that things are not quite right. I mean, I've got a quick anecdote. It's nowhere near as interesting as yours, but it was very clear for me in terms of a red flag. And this would be something I'd consider a personal red flag, not a global one. So it was very simple. We were walking down a street in St. Kilda, in Melbourne, going out for dinner. And this is a street where there's loads and loads of cafes, restaurants, you've got so much choice. And I said to him, we could do this or we could do this. I gave a few options. He could not make a decision. And it got to the point where he kept crossing the road, crossing the road, crossing the road. And I was just toddling along next to him going, for God's sake, will you make a decision? And for me, having a value around, you know, someone who's ambitious and driven and knows their own mind and seeing him not able to even make a decision, incapable of making a decision about where he wanted to eat, was the biggest turnoff for me. Now that might not be a turn off for you.

A (8:24)

Yeah.

D (8:25)

So I think, you know, it's really important to understand what are the ones that are just personal to you and hold to them. They're still absolutely important if they're linked to your values. But also be aware that there are some others that are just don't go there, sister kind of moments.

A (8:38)

And that man is still wandering the streets of Melbourne. He's still trying to make a decision.

D (8:42)

And you see him now with a very long beard.

A (8:46)

Well, as we find out, there's so much to talk about. And we are lucky enough today to be joined by a true expert in the field who is the anonymous sex, dating and relationships expert. La la la. Let me explain. Lala is a qualified social worker. She's also the agony art for Ok magazine and her 2022 book Block, Delete, Move On. It's not you, it's them. What a title. Brilliant. Was a Sunday Times bestseller. She joins us here. Lala, welcome to how to Date.

D (9:15)

Hello.

A (9:16)

Thank you for being here. Do you think I was right to dump the camp?

B (9:19)

Oh, without a doubt. No question.

A (9:23)

Thank goodness. Okay, so Lana, will you explain the red, green and pink, maybe sometimes even amber flag system and how helpful you think it is when it comes to dating?

B (9:36)

Oh, I mean, I think it's really important thing to think about. Exactly. As Mel said at the start there, before you are entering the dating scene or before you meet someone, think about what means what to you? What have you experienced in previous relationships that have not been right, that haven't worked out, that have maybe felt a little bit scary? What have you learned from them? What were the flags then? What were the flags? Or what were the good qualities that you experienced in previous relationships that maybe didn't work out? Get to know what those things are and then approach dating in a way that's not out there looking always for flags unless they're green, but to acknowledge and be aware that there are going to be certain warning signs, possibly when you're Dating people that are important to look at and to think about and to run from sometimes. So I categorize it red, pink and green. You said amber, but I guess my pink is just amber, basically.

A (10:35)

I don't confuse. It's not a London underground tube map. No, no, no.

B (10:38)

And you can call them what you want. You don't even actually have to call them flags. But I think that flags are a really good, good way of looking at it. You know that guy saying your ovaries are going to be dried up in six months? That is him holding up a red flag. And if you can kind of visually imagine that. But the way I see it is green flags are good qualities. Things that people should be showing up as on dates. Things that we're like, this is very attractive and this feels safe and this feels nice. Pink flags are things where you wouldn't necessarily run a pink flag might be something like they say, I don't have any social media whatsoever.

A (11:15)

Yeah.

B (11:15)

Now that's not necessarily something that you would need to write. They might well have. No. So, I mean, bit odd, especially if you've met them on a dating app. But they may well not have any social media. And that could be a really, really healthy thing. But that might be something you should sort of pay attention to a little bit. Then if you have another pink flag. So they won't invite you to their house, but they really want to come to yours, you've now got two pink flags. You don't want to keep adding more and more pink flags to that. You're getting a big indication this person is probably in a relationship. The red flag would then be turning up a date with a wedding ring on.

A (11:53)

Yeah. Interesting because there are some, I suppose, lighter colored red flags that are more serious than pink. But what I mean by that are things like ghosting, which we mentioned in a previous episode. But I'm very interested in the ick because the ick can sometimes be judgment based rather than objective. And is there a thin line between the red flag and ick?

B (12:23)

Mel's example of that man just being completely indecisive. Crossing the road over and get. That's almost an ick as well. Yeah, that's like, this is a real. Oh, I'm turned off by this. And sometimes we are turned off by things that actually we probably shouldn't be. You know, I went to a comedy night with a guy once and he was a really, really sweet guy, but throughout the whole set he was like. And I was like, oh, my God, I just can't look at him anymore. I just can't. And that is an ick. You know, I can't say, sorry, I've left him because his laugh during this comedy set was incredibly embarrassing. That's not you. That is something that I could have overridden. However, sometimes it is your gut saying to you, yes, because if you really like a person, then actually that laugh at the comedy can be like, oh, that was so cute. You know what I mean? It was hilarious. So sometimes I think those icks can be gut, intuition, and sometimes ick is evolutionary. That's what a lot of people say, is that it actually comes from a place of us going, oh, this person might not be a great father for my babies. Or the other way around if you're a man. So ick is something to pay attention to, but also pay attention to why you're getting it. Are you just being a bitch because he's wearing the wrong shoes or whatever? Can you get through that? Or actually, is this ick telling you something else? That actually this discomfort is something you should pay attention to, even if it seems like a silly little thing.

A (13:56)

Very interesting. And, Mel, do you think that the only way to discern that is time?

D (14:01)

I think you can categorize them. I mean, if you think about what you're looking for in a relationship, there are criteria on which to rule someone out. Some of them will be deal breakers. So that's what I would call the red flags, the absolute no go zone. If this thing shows up, I'm out of there because this means it's not going to be a positive relationship for me. So that would be the things that link to your values and your deeper self. But then there are relationship preferences, and these are the ones that are flexible or should be flexible. So when people come to me and say, I will not date someone who wears white shoes, I go, is that a deal breaker or is that a relationship preference?

A (14:41)

Right.

D (14:41)

It's something to be flexible on. And I think this is where, you know, you mentioned about being a bitch or being, you know, a little bit too quick to jump to judgment. Sometimes that's coming from a place of fear. And sometimes there's a bit of humor in there as well. But often it's about self protection. And so I think if an ick cuts comes up, it's a good idea to first ask yourself where it's coming from.

B (15:05)

Yeah, sometimes it's self preservation, isn't it? It's like that, like self sabotage. I'm gonna get the ick for this. Because this person might leave me. So actually, if I've already thought that they're a bit disgusting anyway, then cool. That's a bit of protection for me, for my ego.

A (15:17)

So true. Can we talk about love bombing? Because I think as a society and if you're of a certain generation, as I am, there's part of me that's been socially conditioned to believe that love bombing is romance. If someone's, if someone's coming up to you and saying, let's run away to Rio tomorrow, you're the most amazing thing I've ever seen. It took me years to get out of that conditioning and thankfully I am out of it. But I think there might be some people listening to this who believe that it sounds quite nice. What is love bombing A red flag? Lala.

B (15:51)

Yeah. Love bombing is, is, is hugely a red flag. It's really difficult, isn't it? Because you will have some romances that do play out like movies. You might have friends or family members who had a whirlwind and it worked out and they have got the most wonderful, loving relationship ever. But every movie, every song, everything that we've been conditioned to know is that this is how love goes. It's, you know, big and, and huge and straight away when actually love bombing is probably the biggest red flag out there and the one that if you are able to recognize and deal with, you are potentially saving yourself, maybe saving your own life, especially if you are a woman, but potentially saving yourself from abuse. Now, as you say, love bombing can be really difficult to spot because if somebody's coming at you with intensity, affection, saying all the right things, doing all the right things, if you also kind of feel like, yeah, I want this too, from that, but I really like them too. And also if you feel like I deserve this, like, like, yeah, I'm great, like, I expect this. It can be really difficult to identify that this is actually a sign of danger. Now I've got a good example actually at the moment. One of my friends is dating a guy. They're on the sixth date, she really likes him, they've got on incredibly well. And he's just told her that he has told his daughter's mum about her. Now she came to me as if that was like, this is really great. And I'm like, okay, that you need to take a step back because why after seven days is this man trying to hook you in, in this way? That means that you are now indebted to him in some way. Look at the risk I've taken. I'VE told my daughter's mum about you. Now I can't now untell her about you. So, you know, you now owe me a little bit. And this is often how you can characterize love bombing because the intensity and the whirlwind doesn't last for long before the mask slips and the devaluation stage begins. So they get you completely hooked on it. You want this. You're in a just a constant dopamine rush with this person. Wait until the point that you are dependent on that and that you would be very sad for any of this to end. Then they have that shift. The mask will slip. They will do something like get annoyed with you for something that you've said or done. And then you will feel like you need to apologize your way out of that. Even if you feel that you haven't done anything wrong, that you are then responsible for repairing things to make them go back to that whirlwind intensity. You cannot love someone after three dates. You might feel loads of, like, chemistry and lust and all of these things, but you cannot love. So love bombing is just wanting to be with you all the time, declaring really strong feelings for you, never being out of your sight. And then it's the mask slipping. But it might not be straight away. It could be four months, six months, eight months. But then when the mask slips, it's so hard to get out of.

A (19:13)

If only I had met you when I was 29. You could have saved me a lot of difficulty. That is so riveting, that kind of matrix where they hook you in. But part of that is making you feel responsible for their happiness and their ability to continue providing the supply of kind of addictive love. And I suppose I'd never really understood before how love bombing coexists with narcissism, but I guess this is how. Is that right, Mel?

D (19:44)

Yeah. And often it is one of the behaviors that. That narcissists demonstrate. You're absolutely right. It is essentially getting a hook, big hook out and hooking you on with all of the positive and affirmative behavior around you that's apparently lifting you up. And then, like you say, lala, they drop it. And all of a sudden your need becomes almost unbearable. This is where a lot of people get into that, that sense of devaluing themselves. Who am I if I'm not getting daily flowers from this person? What's wrong with me? And it becomes this cycle. It's incredibly manipulative.

C (20:25)

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B (21:33)

I've been learning to throw a boomerang because this is the kind of thing that really gets the listeners engaged.

C (21:39)

You know, interviews with people who will make you smarter.

B (21:42)

Does the amount that you learn protect.

A (21:45)

You from cognitive decline?

B (21:49)

Can't people just listen to the show? Can't they just enjoy a delightful treehouse.

A (21:54)

Full of information and I think I'm bleeding.

C (21:56)

Join us and be a nobody.

A (22:05)

What about someone who doesn't believe in relationships or commitments? Who is. And I'm laughing again because I've been there.

D (22:12)

I've dated him, too.

A (22:13)

Me too.

B (22:14)

Me too.

D (22:16)

We've all been there.

A (22:17)

The kind of emotional avoidance. Is that a red flag?

B (22:23)

It's a red flag if you are looking for more. If what you're looking for is a relationship and. And you start speaking to someone who is very much, like, not really sure what I'm looking for, but you really fancy them and you really like them and you get on with them. What you can sometimes end up doing is getting into this space where it's like, I really want this person even though they're not offering me exactly what it is that I want. But let me just go at their pace so that I can keep them and so I don't lose this. And, yeah, let me give them sex because that's what they're looking for. And then maybe they might fall in love with me as a result and let me keep showing up for them. And you can often start really showing up like you're in a relationship with somebody who is very clear with you that they don't want a relationship with you but are very happy to continue sleeping with you. So, you know, if you're finding yourself matching people online, make sure it is with people who are saying that they want the same thing that you want. If you're looking for a life partner or a long term monogamous relationship and the guy has in his bio short term fun, if you stick around trying to change that, that is absolutely on you and you. And you've wasted your own time and energy.

D (23:35)

People show you who they are every day.

B (23:38)

Yeah.

D (23:38)

And our job is to listen.

B (23:39)

Yeah.

A (23:40)

Can I ask, and maybe we're not best placed to answer this, but I wonder how neurodiversity plays into this conversation because I imagine that there are certain people with neurodiversity who maybe don't account for themselves in the way they would like on apps or through technology or in person. And that can sometimes be misconstrued as a red or pink, pink flag by the person they're dating. Do you have any insight into that?

B (24:06)

Well, I mean, certainly I've got a lot of insight into ADHD and dating. I, I have been diagnosed with ADHD and it is really impacted my dating life on a basic level. Like in terms of what you're saying about communication and stuff, I might open up a message and I don't reply like a normal person. I'll just give like four words. You know, they might say, how was your day? Great. You know, I'm like, no, about. And sometimes I, I now use chat GPT to help me to formulate things and it's so different. You know, what I was intending to say was like, you know, some absolute rubbish. And then chat GPT will help me to speak like a bloody human sometimes. And I know a lot of autistic people who use chat GPT to formulate conversations as well because sometimes you do miss you Certainly autistic people will miss things like sarcasm. Take things quite literally. People with ADHD are going to be dopamine chasing and maybe want things to happen faster than they should. Certainly for me as an ADHD person, I'm very much like, this must happen, we must have complete momentum, no gaps, you need to reply, you know, and this is stuff that I have to work on. But definitely neurodiversity has a massive impact. And I guess if you on neurotypical, then yes, you may be speaking somebody online who's coming across completely differently. And yeah, Maybe you do have to give room for the fact that maybe people are neurodiverse. But then again, like, I think that's a whole other big conversation about compatibility and stuff. I might be more compatible with a man with ADHD because he's just like me, whereas a neurotypical man might not ever work with me in a relationship because I'd be too chaotic for him.

A (25:54)

Thank you for sharing that. That was so insightful. I. I love the idea of using Chat GPT to almost express something that you want to express, but being able to say to Chat GPT, can you do this with more vulnerability? Can you say it in a way that has an open ended question? I think that's a top tip.

B (26:13)

Thank you. It really works for baby dads as well. My, I've been arguing with my, my baby dad and my original response on Chat GPT is you absolutely. This is never happening. And Chat GP has me sending. I'm very disappointed.

A (26:27)

It's great.

B (26:28)

Really works well.

A (26:29)

That's so interesting because you are a single mother and so red flags for you, particularly if we move on and talk about the really serious ones are something that you have to take into consideration not just for you, but for your child.

B (26:41)

Yes. Yeah. And I think, you know, the sad reality is that when you're dating as a single parent, you can't allow yourself room for the same mistakes that you would have done when you were 25 and single and reckless and didn't have any investments in anything important. You can make mistakes. I mean, you probably shouldn't for your own life, but you can. And you can up your own life as much as you want to. Really, when you have a child, you can't do that anymore. You are responsible for this person's safety and you can't get into situations that even look like they might be potentially. And that's not just because you're potentially putting your child in danger. It's because it's impossible to parent when you are heartbroken and on the floor. I remember being at a football camp with my son. He was like 3 years old. And I got a text from a woman at the time and I had been with this man for six months. I was in love with him. He was my boyfriend. And I got this text during this football camp from this woman who sent me all these photos and she was like, the man that you've been with for the last six months is my boyfriend. Boyfriend. He's my son's father. We live together. And I remember being in this football class and just shaking. And then like my son coming over and trying to show me something and me being like, no move. You know, like. And for the rest of that day, I was just obsessed with texting this woman, getting as much information as possible. And I remember putting him to bed that night and thinking, I've just been the worst mom in the world. So of course you can't always avoid that. And being in relationships means being open to hurt and heartbreak and turmoil and all of those things. But if you as a single parent are putting yourself at risk of that happening knowingly, then actually you are just not serving yourself or your child well, because it is just so hard to be in emotional turmoil and show up as a good parent at the same time.

A (28:38)

Well, I think we've heard an example there of like a super red, like a crimson magenta flag. What a horrible experience you go through. And I'm so sorry. I suppose that leads me into thinking about really, really serious things like controlling behavior, like financial dependency, someone being in a relationship with someone else. Gaslighting. I know that term can be somewhat overused, particularly by the contestants who are married at first sight, but Mel, can I ask you a bit about those red flags and what to do or how to spot them? Some, I suppose, is a better question.

D (29:21)

Okay, well, probably the first thing to say is this is emotional abuse that we're talking about here. You know, I think with all these buzzwords and, you know, TikTok getting involved, it can come across as a bit light hearted. But it really is not, you know, it is emotional abuse. And one of the things we know about people who get involved in emotional abuse is it can escalate and often does to forms of physical abuse and so on, or financial abuse, you know, the whole array. So I guess the first thing is to take it seriously. You know, if you are noticing that someone is being manipulative towards you, that they're controlling you, that they're belittling you, that they're lying to you, that they're using those confusional techniques that we actually see a lot in Married at first sight as well. But I hear a lot from people in relationships talking about this as well, where the person is turning a situation around even though they're in the wrong and making you believe that you're in the wrong. And I think a really good litmus test is to ask yourself, do I feel like I'm going crazy? Because that's something that we hear so often. You probably hear this too, lah lah, people saying, I feel Like, I'm going crazy in this relationship.

B (30:31)

Yeah, absolutely. And emotionally abusive relationships are just as harmful as physical. I mean, the two really go hand in hand. You're not really going to get a physically abusive relationship relationship without coercive control. They're very much hand in hand, which is exactly as you said. The coercive control very often leads to physical abuse. And the things that you really do need to look out for are controlling jealousy. And that can be so subtle. And again, a bit like with the love bombing. It feels nice.

A (31:02)

And I know that we're speaking here as three straight CIS women, but I'm sure there are incidences where women do this too.

B (31:13)

Absolutely.

A (31:14)

And are manipulators and are abusers. And I just wanted to say that for anyone listening, to be aware, not just to think of it in terms of a binary gender issue. This can happen in multiple different kinds of relationships. And one of the things for me that I remember from a past relationship that was deeply dysfunctional and emotionally abusive was I wanted to record our arguments because he would always remember it differently in a way that painted me in the worst light. Obviously, I never did it because I was too scared to do it, actually. And if you are at the point where you're thinking, I want to record the conversations we have, that to my mind is a red flag.

B (32:00)

Oh, absolutely, yeah, very.

D (32:03)

And I think that's helpful for people listening, you know, in terms of what to look out for in your own reactions. Because if we take the example of jealousy, that's not a binary thing. You know, there's a whole continuum of jealous behaviors at one end where it is just, you know, maybe someone feeling a little bit insecure and they really are falling in love with you. And so the fear is bubbling to the surface and they're behaving in a way that's a little bit awkward and, you know, they're showing their hand a bit through to a really controlling, jealous, aggressive style of behavior and everything in between. So I think it's important that, you know, we don't necessarily jump straight to, if someone's being jealous, throw them out, throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. There's gotta be an acknowledgement of all the nuance here. And I think this is where, you know, having friendship groups or family members you can talk to to just do a bit of that reality checking. Because, you know, often when you're in that limerence stage, the early stages, the relationship, everything is all a little bit blurred because you're so excited and there's oxytocin flowing around and everything looks great, but it can be confusing. It can be hard to get that touch point of reality. So I think I would really encourage you listeners to if you're noticing things come up that seem like they could be red flags, talk about it, don't overthink it, get it out there, have a chat with someone you trust and just do a bit of exploration of. Okay, here are the different types of behaviors this person's demonstrating. What do you think?

A (33:39)

Do you have any practical tips you could add to Mel's very wise advice to check in with your friendship group? If you've spotted a red flag, what should you do?

B (33:49)

It's really difficult because I mean, if it's a red flag, a genuinely red flag, you actually do need to do the hard thing and show up for yourself and choose yourself and choose to not put yourself in a situation. And that looks like it's going to be extremely risky. And it is difficult. It's very hard to show up for yourself and to be decisive and to make the right decision because of all those nuance factors like limerence. Like this is the first person that's come along in a really long time and I really want this to work out. I mean, if you're spotting them in these early days, remind yourself that actually walking away is potentially saving your life. Think about what could be at the end of five years of this behavior manifesting and developing and growing and can.

D (34:38)

I jump in there? Because I think that's a really good point. Looking for patterns? Yes, a one off behavior, benefit of the doubt. But if you're starting to see these little behaviors 3, 4, 5 times, it becomes a pattern. And that's where you can start to, I guess, make predictions or hypotheses about if I was to stay in this relationship and this pattern of behavior continued for five years, what might that look like?

A (35:04)

Is this happening to everyone? Because I think again, when you're dating and you're going through a series of really difficult experiences, sometimes that feel very rejecting and very dispiriting, you can turn that inside yourself and believe that it's you that's at fault, that it's a personal attack on you from your experience. Lala is this a widespread problem?

B (35:30)

Oh my God, yeah. Dating is hell. It's really difficult, especially because of social media and dating apps and just the way that the world has changed so significantly in the last few years. I think it's very easy to internalize that and to blame yourself for all of the failures or all of the awful things that people might say to you on dating apps or the terrible encounters that you have. I think there are two things to remember. One is that it is happening to everyone. No matter how hot, how, how successful, how wonderful you are, you are going to face some problems. If you go out onto dating apps, there's going to be red flags. You're going to see them. You need to have a bit of a thick skin. You need to not take anything personally. But I think back to Mel's point that also if there are patterns that are being repeated, then maybe you do have to look at yourself as well. If every single thing is turning out the same, then yes, dating is a show. But also what are you doing here? What do you need to look at within your own behavior that is helping to create the shit show for you?

A (36:36)

Yes, I think that's a really good point because red flags or pink flags are not an excuse just to dump all of the blame on someone else every single time unless it's warranted. So let's move on to the pinkish flags. And we discussed at the top of the episode, Mel, that distinction between global and personal flags. And I suppose there's one that could be red but could also be pink, which is a disagreement in terms of politics, morals or religion. The big three.

B (37:08)

Yes.

A (37:09)

How would you navigate that, Mel? If someone is. If we go back to 2016 and someone was a rabid Brexit supporter and you were fervently remain, is that what kind of flag is that?

D (37:23)

Well, I don't think it has to be a flag at all, to be honest. You know, I think those beliefs about the world can create so much colour in a relationship. For me, in that equation, if the communication was all wrong, that would be the red flag. So if you have two people who have politically opposed views, yet they communicate in a respectful way and they love that their partner votes differently. I mean, Gareth and I, he's, he's a pretty right wing guy, he's pretty conservative and I'm kind of a raving lefty and we can have some right barneys about it, but it's about the way we communicate with each other. And we've actually gotten to the point now where we like hearing each other's views and we laugh at each other. You know, it does often end up in a bit of a fun kind of light hearted discussion, but fundamentally we have pretty different views on politics and the way the world should be run. So if I was to look at that early in our relationship and go, oh, that's a pink flag. That's hedging towards a red flag. I could have walked away very early in the relationship. He also loves heavy metal music. I mean, I thought that was a deal breaker. I thought that was a red flag for me. I had said for years. Cause I went to school with a lot of boys who were into heavy metal, and I thought it was revolting. And so when he showed up wearing a heavy metal T shirt one day, I was nearly out the door.

A (38:54)

It's very interesting that, because I think it highlights listening, how important listening is. And that's such a good way of putting it that actually if you can communicate through your difference of opinion, it can bring you closer. But one of the things that I noticed when I was dating and on not all of the apps, but some of the apps in my late 30s, I decided Tinder was too scary for me at that point was that I asked all of the questions a lot of the time. And the person I was on a date with would sometimes end up saying, gosh, you ask a lot of questions. Don't you feel like I'm being interviewed?

D (39:30)

Yeah, it's like you're a professional interviewer.

A (39:32)

I know, exactly. And I would make a joke of it and say, sorry, that's an occupational hazard. But internally I was thinking, well, you could ask me some mates. But I'm just having to, like, carry the flow of the conversation here. And I wonder if you feel that that's a pink flag if someone doesn't show interest in you. Lala.

B (39:50)

Oh, a massive. I'd say that's a red flag. And I experienced this a lot on dates with men is that they just. I can sometimes leave a date and think, that was fantastic. And then I reflect on it and I'm like, that was fantastic. Cause I was funny. I was carrying the date. I was asking all the questions I've left there. I know how many siblings he's got when his parents got divorced. He doesn't even know what I do for a living, you know, and this happens all the time. And I think it's really important to know if they're not genuinely curious and interested, then really what are they here for? But I just want to go back to the politics thing because I think, yes, I completely agree with you on subjects like Brexit. I think you can have a remainer and a. And a lever and you can argue, but respect respectfully and you can debate, and that can be really healthy. I think if you are a trans person and your person you're on a date with voted for Trump, I think that you need to be very clear that that is potentially harmful to your safety. If you are a woman and the person that you are on a date with is saying that they're really into Donald Trump's policies around female reproductive rights, this person is potentially going to be dangerous to you. There is politics that we can all kind of go, look, I don't agree with you, but I respect you and I hear you. There is other politics that is genuinely harmful to my safety, and maybe not mine, but safety of people who look like me and who, if I lived in this country, I would be unsafe. And you're supporting that is a red flag. I think in some circumstances.

A (41:32)

Yeah. I totally agree. It's that sense of someone wanting to eradicate your own existence through the policies that they support.

B (41:40)

Yeah.

A (41:40)

And actually, so much of what we talk about on how to date is self worth and building that up and taking time to understand and respect yourself. And so you can't date someone who fundamentally shows a complete absence of respect for who you are and what your identity is. I think you're right.

B (42:00)

And even for a whole other group of people. So if I was dating a man who's deeply homophobic, I mean, that's not gonna affect me. I'm heterosexual, I'm a woman. But actually, his views and how he votes is going to harm people in my life who I love. And actually, that is a red flag.

D (42:19)

Well, I would argue that it's a global red flag.

B (42:21)

Absolutely.

D (42:22)

You know, as you say, it doesn't matter if you're gay yourself, but if you are having a drink with someone and they're being homophob, that's a sign of lack of respect, you know, Are they also starting to show racist tendencies, transphobic tendencies? You know, these. What underlies these behaviours is lack of respect and lack of acceptance. So those are the questions you need to ask yourself. Do you want to be with someone who is disrespectful regardless of the target?

B (42:49)

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D (43:23)

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A (43:53)

Let's talk a little bit about nudes. Okay.

D (43:56)

You say nudes.

A (43:58)

Love it. I have confessed this before, but I've never been sent a dick pic. And I'll be honest, I'm slightly offended.

D (44:06)

I think you should be grateful.

A (44:08)

Yeah, you should. Potentially, I think that if someone had sent me a dick pic, I would consider that maybe a pink flag. Literally. It depends on the. Oh my God. Anyway, yes. What is, what's your take on sending news?

B (44:28)

I mean that's a whole podcast in itself, but I mean it depends on context. I've been speaking to a guy we've never even met up before. I was sat in actually a library at the time and he was, he was actually asking me what I was reading and then I told him what I was reading and then he said, I'm sure you'd prefer to read this. And then this dick, actually it was a beautiful penis. Which was such a shame because I just thought if you'd have let me discover that on my own, I'd been thrilled by this. But just sending this penis to me in my inbox totally uninvited, I can't take you seriously now. But also you are very clearly showing me what your intentions are, are where you want to go with this. I mean, it is a sex offense to just randomly send your genitals to people that haven't asked for them. So absolutely a red flag in, in terms of somebody sending them without asking you. If they have asked for consent and it's appropriate and you are in a sexual discussion at the time, then then of course if you want to send and receive nudes then then that's fine. But I certainly would say that if you are on dating apps and people are trying to go down territory, sex talk territory, bringing every, the whole conversation coming back to physical attributes and sex kind of stuff, then then they are showing you their intentions very clearly. If you don't just want a one night standout of this, then get yourself out of this. But also in terms of sending nudes yourself when you are in something trusting, just be really, really careful. I would always advise never Put your face in it. If you've got a big tattoo or something, don't show the tattoo. Nothing. That's an identifying feature that could. To blackmail you or. Or harm you at some point in the future.

A (46:16)

Yeah. And I think that's really important for teenagers to hear as well, because they are growing up in a culture where it is so visual and so online and you can do things and be encouraged to do things that you will end up regretting later and that don't make you feel safe. And it is okay to say no. Not only okay, it is entirely appropriate to say no. Mel, have you ever been sent to Dick par?

D (46:39)

I have.

A (46:41)

Have you?

D (46:42)

And that's how. This is how I responded.

B (46:44)

Oh, you look gleeful.

D (46:45)

No, no, I was laughing at it, not with it. And as were all of my girlfriends. That's how seriously I took it. Like it was an absolute write off. You know, it wasn't a serious relationship. It was a very casual thing. I was in with this guy and he sent it and I was just like, that's hilarious. But I've also certainly talked to people, clients and friends who've received them, and it wasn't so funny. You know, like your example. You were in a library. You know, I've had someone open it with their child sitting right next to them when they are unsolicited, when there is no consent. It is a form of abuse. And it's actually a really aggressive act to send to someone, isn't it?

B (47:29)

Oh, yeah. Cause it's no different to somebody just getting their dick out in a, you know, in a. In a public place. And there is something I. I think to be said for that, that if. If it's totally out of context, you haven't asked for it, you're not having a sexual conversation. What is behind that? Do they want to shock you? Do they want to make you feel a bit vulnerable? Are they so deluded and arrogant that they think this is what all women like? Well, again, that's a red flag for me because you haven't spoken to any women. Clearly you're not listening to women. You're not out here learning about the people you're trying to date. And that's what's led you to think, yeah, women. Women love this. So it's a gay boys.

D (48:06)

We don't.

B (48:07)

Yeah. Yes, we do not.

A (48:09)

And also, we don't need your tip. Sorry, I can't. I'm on one now. Thank you so much.

B (48:17)

You are very good. Thank you, guys.

A (48:21)

Okay, let's move on to where we've all wanted to get to, which is the hallowed territory of green flags.

B (48:30)

Oh, we love a green flag.

A (48:31)

I feel a sense of relief when I say that. I think for me, one of the most important green flags is emotional availability.

B (48:38)

Yes.

D (48:39)

Sing it, sister.

A (48:40)

Yes. Now, sometimes, in fact, most of the time, I think it's harder to spot than its opposite, emotional unavailability. Probably because the unavailability or the fuck wittery that we are used to is more prevalent than someone who is emotionally available. And my experience of meeting someone who is emotionally available, Justin, was that it felt so unfamiliar that I didn't quite know what to do with myself. And I didn't recognize it for what it was at the time, which was someone who was a clear communicator, didn't feel the need to communicate all the time. Wasn't love bombing. Far from it. Was very much living his own life, had his own independence and agency. Big believer in pacing. Took him six months to say that he was in love with me. Because when he said it, he said, well, that's a commitment now. That's how much I believe in it. But I, as someone who was used to having the pacing warped and kind of taken out of my hands, it was almost. It was in someone else's gift. I just wasn't used to any of that. So emotional availability. What does it mean to you, Mel?

D (49:47)

Someone who is not afraid to show how much they like you? And I know that this is a. A tricky topic because we've been talking.

A (49:59)

About love bombing, but, like, rather than love, which I think is important.

D (50:02)

Yeah, absolutely. And again, this is a continuum. You know, there are absolute extremes of this type of behaviour and there's all the nuance in the middle. But I think for me, someone who can not play games, who can just sit in their strength, know who they are and what they want, and just openly, without fanfare, just tell you that they like you and they enjoy spending time with you. That, I think is a certain type of vulnerability that we're not used to because we're used to game playing or love bombing or acting like they're unavailable or not calling for three days. So when they do call you straight after the date and say, hey, thanks very much for tonight, I really enjoyed your company and I'd actually really like to do that again often. Certainly clients of mine, when they've heard things like that have gone, whoa, red flag. This guy's weird. No, he's not. He's actually being really normal. Yes, that's really good.

A (50:58)

I'd like to see you again. That's as simple as it gets. What. Who is this strange traveler from another land? What does emotional availability look like to you, Lala?

B (51:12)

Much like Mel, I want somebody who is able to be vulnerable and who can share that and take that, who can accept my vulnerabilities and maybe not even serious vulnerabilities, like, you know, you know, the things. Just like being a single mum. I wouldn't necessarily. I mean, that is, I guess, a vulnerability.

A (51:30)

But.

B (51:31)

But people who are able and willing to share freely their fragilities and their vulnerabilities. And to be honest about that, for me, consistent is really important. And then communicating. If you're unable to be consistent, it's a bit like, you know, the. The early dating stages, that kind of flakiness or that. Not, you know, like, if you're going out on a date with someone, say you've got a date scheduled for Friday and it's now Friday morning and you haven't heard from them since Wednesday or Thursday and you're there like, oh, like, oh, should I text? Should I find out? Are we meeting tonight? I mean, I've kept Friday night free. Like, I don't want to be in that situation, to be in a situation where I just know where I stand because you've been really clear and really consistent and you haven't used games to make my head spin. Just be a. Normally be normal.

A (52:28)

Yeah, just be straightforward. Actually, it's so interesting hearing you talk because I'm thinking of a green flag in my dating experience. That was actually an ending where we had been on, I'd say about three dates and it'd been great. He was really good company. We had good conversations, he was funny, we had fun. In between those dates, he would err on the side of the emotionally unavailable. And I found myself in that situation that you described. Lala. Should I text? Should I not text? Should I will it look over keen? And it's just a horrible feeling. I'm getting triggered just now thinking of it. And then we went for a drink and he was really upfront with me, but in a very sincere and kind and he said, I'm not in a place in my life now. And I was a bit older than him and he knew that having children was important for me and all that sort of stuff. And he just handled it with real care and clarity and I left feeling fine about it. And he's still in my life and actually I have a lot of respect for that and I think that there's a way of, of showing your green flags in how you also handle calling things quits. Yeah, it comes back to communication again, as everything does. Are there any other fail safe green flags for either of you?

B (53:55)

Oh, I don't know about fail safe. I mean, kindness, yes. Kindness is just really important. And not just kindness to you. Like, are they being kind to them. That waitress who I think kindness and generosity, but not just generosity of money, generosity of your time, generosity of your love. And I don't mean like, you know, romantic love, but love for the world. I think that those things are really important, like the causes that they believe in and the things that they're willing to fight for, to me are really important green flags.

A (54:28)

Beautiful. Mal, I think, you know, we've talked.

D (54:31)

A lot about emotional safety today and I think if a person is cultivating that safe space for you by showing empathy, by not blaming you, by not judging you, you know, making it okay for you to share that you've made a mistake or that you have this big dream that might be unrealistic, but you have hopes for it anyway. If someone is creating that environment for you to do all of that and to feel supported and held, then that's a huge green flag. Leg.

A (55:02)

I'm so glad we've ended this episode on that note because I just, yeah, I just feel so relieved and emotionally safe myself. Oh, Lala, you have been an absolute joy. Thank you so much for coming into her today. We've loved chatting to you and we are going to leave you lovely listeners with one of Mel's excellent exercises. So, Mel, what is the exercise for this week?

D (55:24)

So this one is gonna build on everything we've talked about today to do with your flags. So rather than just having this unconscious feeling about what might be a red flag or a green flag, we're gonna get you to get really practical with it here. So in this worksheet you've got the red flags, that is the global and the personal, your pink flags and your green flags. And what I want you to do is to jot down under those three categories all the examples you've experienced so far. And then in the next column, all the things, the behaviours you're gonna be on the lookout for in future relationships.

A (56:01)

Perfect camp beds not welcome. And as ever, Mel, those worksheets and exercises are available for listeners to download right now@thepodclass.co.uk link in the show notes. This has set us up beautifully for next week's episode, Mel, which is all about taking it to the next step. So we've sorted through the collation of flags, we've assessed that there are lots of lovely green flags and we want to take it to the next step. How do we do that? And how do we know it's the right time?

D (56:32)

Big questions.

A (56:33)

We can't wait to see you again. Then next week, taking it to the next step on how to Date. Thank you so much for tuning in. I've been Elizabeth Day.

D (56:41)

And I've been Mel. Chilling.

A (56:46)

How to Date is proudly sponsored by Morrisons. Mel and I are on a mission to revolutionize dating. We want to make make it better for everyone. And what better way to do that than to get you lovely listeners to sign up to a good dating pledge. Mel and I have designed 10 dating commandments. Things like I will communicate clearly and with kindness. I will not ghost or breadcrumb. I will always ask consent. And you can go and sign up just by putting your email in. That's all we ask. You can go and sign up at the podcast co UK that's the podcast. P-O-C-L-A-S-S.co.uk let's make dating better for everyone. Thank you so much for listening. Please do like, follow and share with everyone you know who might want to listen to and who knows, one of them might even turn out to be your future romantic partner. This is a Daylight Productions and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast.