← How To Fail With Elizabeth Day
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- [00:00]
A
I know from experience that starting your own business can be super intimidating and can feel really isolating. So I empathize with those of you who are currently feeling that way. However, I've got a tool for you that can simplify everything and make you feel less alone for millions of businesses. That tool is Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Mattel to brands just getting started. Get started with your own design studio. With hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store to match your brand style. Turn your big business idea into With Shopify on your side, sign up for your pound one per month trial and start selling today at shopify.co.uk fail go to shopify.co.uk fail fail. Abercrombie Kids is bringing the ultimate first day energy back to school. It all starts with on trend outfits for that front door photo shoot, plus the coolest tees, shorts and jeans to take them through the rest of the year. Get them ready for their close up and keep them comfy too. Make this grade their best one yet. Shop all things back to school in store, online and in the app how to Date is proudly sponsored by Morrisons. Welcome back to how to Date, the podcast that teaches you what you need to know about navigating modern romance. I'm podcaster and author Elizabeth Day.
- [01:45]
B
And I'm Mel Schilling, relationship Coach. And every week we aim to give you the skills you need to show up as yourself on the apps and in real life.
- [01:56]
A
And I just wanted to let you know that if you don't want to wait each week for new episodes, please join our wonderful community of subscribers where you can binge all episodes now ad free all at once. Just follow the link in the show notes. Mel I cannot believe it, but this is our last episode.
- [02:16]
B
We have arrived. This has been the most incredible journey.
- [02:19]
A
It really has. I have loved spending time with you, number one. I've loved dating you.
- [02:25]
B
Well, it doesn't finish here, my friend, I tell you. That's for sure.
- [02:29]
A
That's so true. And actually, that segues perfectly into today's topic. Because although we are leaving you, and we hope, dear listener, that we are leaving you equipped with the skills that you need to navigate dating, we're also always going to be here. We're always going to be here in your back catalog. And we want to leave you with the idea of constant evolution. And part of that evolution is our relationship with ourselves, isn't it, Melissa?
- [02:55]
B
Yes, absolutely. You know, in thinking about this final episode, I did put quite a lot of thought into what could be one really clear message that we could leave our listeners with. And what I arrived at was this. There is one thing you can control in a relationship, and that's yourself. Let's focus there.
- [03:18]
A
And we started this podcast asking the question, are you ready to date? And part of that is obviously unwrapping your own sense of self and where you're at with your self esteem. Last episode we heard from Michelle Ellman about the knocks that your self esteem can take through heartbreak and rejection. And so this episode, that's what we're going to discuss. We're going to discuss how to accept yourself and how to love yourself. Now, you and I were giggling before we started recording. Cause I hate that phrase.
- [03:49]
B
Why do you hate it?
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A
This is the thing. I'm like, why am I so triggered by the idea of falling in love with yourself? I suppose I'm of a generation and one might say a nationality, which might believe that falling in love with oneself is just self indulgent and spoiled.
- [04:07]
B
You're so British.
- [04:08]
A
I'm so British and completely messed up.
- [04:14]
B
No, I get it. In Australia, we'd say you're up yourself.
- [04:17]
A
Yes. Yeah, we have that here too.
- [04:19]
B
Yeah. Okay. Yeah, let's not be up ourselves. I think we can borrow a leaf from the American book here. I think the Americans are very good when it comes to being open and proud about self love. I think we can really take some of that on.
- [04:33]
A
It's also that it reminds me of masturbation, which, which is, again, it's a different podcast. I mean, I'm totally here for it, but that's maybe a different subject. But tell me what that phrase, falling in love with yourself means to you, Mel, from a therapeutic perspective.
- [04:48]
B
I love the idea of this concept, falling in love with yourself, particularly after a breakup, you know, and this flows very nicely after our chat with Michell. I think there's something here about putting the pieces back together and starting to love the bits that, you know, the wobbly bits, as we like to say, loving the wobbly bits in yourself. The bits that maybe previous partners have criticized or that, that you haven't enjoyed in the past. Coming back to that place of, I guess, equilibrium. And a big part of that is self love. And if we break that down, what is self love? You know, you could look at it from a number of perspectives, but from a psychological perspective, I really look at it in Terms of, well, firstly, self worth. So what is the worth that you place on yourself? And for those of us who've been knocked around in relationships a little bit, that can take a bit of a tumble. You know, you can sort of see yourself as not deserving of love or of happiness or of success. So getting back to that ground zero point again, resetting and going, I actually am worthy of great love and great happiness. And you might not believe it at first, but this is where things like affirmations can come in and can be really, really powerful. You know, put it on your wallpaper, on your phone, or write it on your mirror with lipstick. I am worthy. That's step one. And once you start to believe in that worth and really believe it, you know, not just have the words there, but actually take it on and have a belief that you do des a great relationship, you can then move into acceptance. So accepting your oblivious, you know, there are parts of yourself that may not be perfect, that may make mistakes when it comes to relationships, who may even repeat those mistakes. You know, we all do it at times, but just accepting that that's okay and that you don't actually have to be perfect to go into your next relationship.
- [06:50]
A
It's so interesting, that notion of self acceptance, because I think you're completely right and so wise. And I think for many, what I struggled with was the fact that there are parts of me that I think are really unlovable and unlikable. And I think the penny dropped for me when I had a session with a therapist who said, yeah, that's fine. There are these shadow sides to everyone. And actually, one of the least healthy things you can do is live in a state of denial because you're so ashamed of them that actually what makes you you and what makes you unique is an acceptance and acknowledgement of these sides. And by accepting and acknowledging, you can then choose whether to react to them, whether to respond to them or not. But what are some practical tools for other than the affirmations for those things that feel so grubby and that maybe you have been conditioned to believe are grubby by a parental figure in your life? How can we start unpacking that?
- [07:56]
B
I think exactly what you and I are doing right here, sitting with a friend and talking about them and even laughing at them. You know, I think humor can be such a great tool here, you know, particularly if it's something that you're feeling a little bit of shame about, bringing it out into the light with a trusted friend and just chatting about It. Laughing about it, you know, maybe talking about where this particular issue or character flaw has brought you undone in the past. I mean, the. The value here is in learning the lesson, you know, so that you don't fall into that trap again. You know, that aspect of yourself. Let's say you have a selfish streak, you know, who doesn't? But maybe that did rear its ugly head in your last relationship. Maybe chat to your friends about, okay, when does my selfishness come out? Is there something that my partner did that really triggered that side? Was it coming out, for example, when I was feeling a bit threatened or maybe a bit fearful? Was it coming out when I was feeling insecure? So what we often find is if you dig a little bit deeper beneath one of those ugly, wobbly bits, there's often some real vulnerability there, and that's where the good stuff is. So if you can actually get to that point of, okay, when I was behaving like the proverbial bitch in that relationship, what was actually going on was I was feeling a little bit scared that my partner was going to leave me. That's where the value is.
- [09:23]
A
Because very often I can think I'm feeling one thing, but when I sit with it, when I think I'm feeling sad and then I sit with it and I take myself off and I have 10 minutes just closing my eyes in silence thinking, why am I feeling sad? Very often it's actually masking another feeling that I'm responding to from decades ago. Very often it can be anger that has this acceptable, social, socially acceptable face of sadness. And that is something that you can only get to know once you spend time with yourself. And you're right. As our queen Brene Brown says, shame thrives in silence. And it's a quote that I come back to again and again. Therefore, the antidote to that is to bring it out, as you were saying, Mel, into the light and to find someone trusted that you can speak to about that. And sometimes that trusted person will end up being yourself. And that's really where we want to get to, isn't it?
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B
Yes. And this is why I love journaling so much as a tool, you know, I think. And that doesn't have to be sitting with a book and writing it, you know, I know a lot of people who use voice notes in their phone and just have a little chat to yourself in a way of opening up, exploring things that are coming up, looking at it from different perspectives and trying to understand it, you know, or you might write or, you know, you might just Go for a long walk and be with nature and meditate. Or maybe you sit on a yoga mat and do that. You know, we all have our own way of going internal, but I think not doing that comes at a great risk.
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A
I've never thought about voice note journaling, which is ironic, given I'm a podcaster. Yes. That really appeals to me. Yes.
- [11:03]
B
It would suit your style.
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A
It would, wouldn't it? Yeah. What if someone has in the past lost themselves in a relationship or a series of romantic relationships? How do they ensure that that doesn't happen again?
- [11:20]
B
I would suggest that this is probably one of the most common things I hear from people. I lost myself in that last relationship. And whilst it means something slightly different for everyone, it can be quite a subjective experience. Overall, I find it tends to mean when I sort of unpack it with people, I forgot to be me.
- [11:44]
A
Yes.
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B
I was so focused on pleasing the other person or holding onto them so that they wouldn't leave or, you know, whatever they were doing that was focusing on the relationship and the other person that they forgot to focus on themself. So, again, as women, we are trained from, you know, from the time we're little girls to serve everyone else's needs before our own. And when people become parents, that becomes magnified because the child must come first. And so when you talk to women, for example, who are single mums and are dating, this becomes such a big issue. They put all of their energy into maintaining that family unit, that their own needs come last. And if they do go out dating, they're not putting the time to think about it and to really nurture themselves through that process. I think we need to do a lot to support our sisters who are single parents and dating.
- [12:45]
A
Can you talk a little bit about with or without you?
- [12:49]
B
I love this, and I learned it very, very recently. Imagine coming to a relationship and saying, probably not out loud, because that would be weird, but in your mind, saying to this person, I'm going to have a great life with or without you. It is so empowering, it is so calming. And it's very much saying, I'm stable. I'm standing firm here in this, or rather on this path to a positive life. It would be really great if you join me, but if you don't, I'm going to do it anyway.
- [13:29]
A
It blew my mind when I heard you say that. And also that you can apply it in business settings as well.
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B
Absolutely.
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A
Imagine coming to the negotiating table with that energy.
- [13:39]
B
Yes.
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A
In hand.
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B
Yes.
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A
There's something really, really beautiful and empowering about that because it gives you agency and it's so respectful. Yes, that's the key, isn't it? It comes down to self respect.
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B
Absolutely. And it takes the desperation feeling out of the equation. Because if you're saying that this is something I'm doing anyway.
- [14:05]
A
If the person.
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B
Comes along and joins you, that's a bonus.
- [14:08]
A
Yeah.
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B
As opposed to desperately grabbing onto them and holding on in order to have a positive life. You're gonna have a positive life anyway.
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A
So what does it look like? What? When someone is dating with this kind of self love. She said, cringing as she used the phrase, you can do it, I can do it. I can do it as part of my self acceptance. What might someone like that look like?
- [14:32]
B
Well, in previous episodes we've talked about the whole idea of attachment theory and attachment styles. And I guess someone who has developed and preserves a good level of self love is going to be securely attached. So you're not going to see that clinginess, that desperation to hold on to the person. Also, you're not going to see that putting up all the walls and pushing someone away to keep that distance and preferring not to be vulnerable. You're going to see someone who is quite grounded. I kind of, when I think of someone who has self love and who is also securely attached, I think of them with bare feet and getting grounded into the earth. You know, it's that kind of sense of, I have my own roots here. These roots are supporting me to live the life that I want to live. And if you want to come along and be a beautiful branch to add to this tree, then that's an absolute bonus.
- [15:29]
A
Another great metaphor there. I think a really crucial part of this is that when you truly know and respect yourself, it gives you the courage to make difficult but necessary decisions. Can you talk a bit about decision making, Mel, and how it plays into this?
- [15:49]
B
Yeah, I think having that self knowledge for starters, but also a real trust, a deep trust in yourself enables you to listen to your intuition when it comes up. You know, I speak to people all the time who have been in relationships that have messed them around and really pushed and pulled and had them feeling like they don't know whether they're up or down. You know, that confusion that comes from perhaps a person who's giving mixed messages or who's maybe being manipulative. And it's very easy to come out of that kind of relationship not trusting yourself. What's key here is to be able to look at a new situation and have a Real belief that you're going to step into that situation and make the right decision. And that really just comes from experience, so from doing it. So if you come out of a relationship and you are at that point where you're doubting your decision making ability, what would be really good is to do some little social experiments and to put yourself in situations where you need to make decisions about things that are reasonably low stakes. So where, you know, no one's going to be upset or hurt, you know, maybe it's about, you know, you might start with the type of coffee you're going to have, but essentially getting some practice at listening to what that little voice inside you is telling you to do. But then also coming back to what Emma was talking about in a previous podcast about the wise mind. So balancing the rational, so the really practical side of things with the emotional, because both are really, really important here.
- [17:25]
A
Yes, that idea of starting small can be incredibly potent actually, can't it? And you can start small in terms of acts of self love too. You can start small by saying something, just one tiny thing that you like about yourself. I'm punctual, like, you can start there and build from that. And as you're talking, I was reminded of a past relationship of mine which in many ways was a really nice relationship. It wasn't toxic by any measure, but I did not know myself. And I really remember him asking me, where do you want to go for lunch? And I had no answer. My response would be, I don't know, where do you want to go for lunch? I want to go where you want to go for lunch. That would make me happy. And genuinely, after years of doing that, you. Then I lost touch with my own desires. One loses touch with what one actually, actually wants. And it took me a really long time to build up from that again. And in the interim, I did get into a toxic relationship which did exploit that part of me. And when I eventually left that relationship, I did it because my instinct kicked in. And it was as though I had hit a wall, an emotional wall where I didn't know why, but I knew I had to leave. And that's why I always say to people who are struggling in a relationship, I don't know whether to leave or not. I'm just not sure. I think that at some point your clever psyche will take over if you let it. Your instinct, as you say, will just kick into gear if you let it and if you respect it enough. And that goes to the heart of what you were saying about having then the resilience and the self knowledge to understand that you can do that. And there's something to be said for responsible quitting there, where having made the decision to leave that toxic relationship, and I probably left it too long, but I did leave. It's made me feel more empowered to leave or quit other things.
- [19:34]
B
Brilliant. I mean, what you're describing there is a very definition of confidence. You know, you've had the runs on the board in the past, so you've actually had those small wins and some bigger wins. So you can go and draw on that internal data of, I've done this before, so I know I can do it again. And so this is where I think if you are coming out of a relationship and you're feeling depleted in this way, absolutely put yourself in those situations where you can start making decisions again and building them up to bigger and bigger decisions so that you're not. You're not vulnerable in that way, because.
- [20:10]
A
You'Re allowed to do that. You're allowed to work out what it is that you think will make you happy, fulfilled, safe, and then act accordingly. And you're also not only allowed, but we are encouraging you to communicate that to your significant other.
- [20:28]
B
Oh, consider this your permission slip, our gorgeous listeners. Ask for what you want.
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A
Yes.
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B
That's your job.
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A
Yes.
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B
To ask for your needs to be met.
- [20:38]
A
Yes. And it's so often said in sort of old sitcoms, I'm not mind reader, you know, love. But it's also true your mind cannot be read.
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B
That's right.
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A
And in fact, it shouldn't be able to be because it's your mind and you get to live there. Can we talk a little bit about celibacy? That's something that's come up on Married at first sight a bit. In the most recent UK series, we had Sasha, who had opted not to sleep with anyone until she found her next serious relationship. Do you think that that can be a powerful tool? I mean, it's not for everyone, right?
- [21:11]
B
It's not for everyone. And I guess there is a bit of confusion around the terminology here too. And we found that, you know, as we were talking to Sasha about it, I guess celibacy is really a decision for life, whereas abstinence is more of a. This is where I'm at right now for a season, if you like. And I think really what. What she was talking about was abstinence. So this is where perhaps someone comes out of a relationship and feels that they've been giving, giving, giving so much to the other person that they feel a bit drained and just want to put the energy back into themselves, and that includes their sexuality. So this can be a really strong, empowered choice. This can be about. I'm not giving of myself to anyone at the moment. I'm just investing back in me. And that might be whilst you're dating. You know, you can absolutely go on a dating journey and choose to abstain from sex as long as you're open and upfront about it. Yeah, you know, you don't want any surprises. You don't want to find yourself in a situation where someone's going to be pressuring you to do something you don't want.
- [22:16]
A
You don't need to check into a nunnery just yet. Not yet. And actually, by the same token, you could be going through a process of loving yourself and being in a really important relationship with yourself and also be having sex with people.
- [22:30]
B
Oh, of course. Yeah, absolutely.
- [22:32]
A
I think I've done that in the past. Like, I think I've actually found that helpful in terms of that thing that we keep going back to, that idea, idea of data acquisition. The things that don't work actually end up being learnings in a really powerful way. And maybe that is about exploring that side of yourself that is sexual and that is romantic and that will give you a closer sense of who you are and a more validating sense of self worth too.
- [23:00]
B
Yeah, I think if. If you are in a position where you. You do have your feet on the ground, you are having that sense of groundedness and feeling centered, then going out and exploring your sexuality is a fabulous thing to do. Particularly if you're confident enough to communicate exactly where you're at with all of your partners. I think as long as you're not putting yourself in a situation that's gonna lead to confusion. You know, if you can be upfront about this stuff, go for it. That's fab.
- [23:29]
A
And it's important most of all to remain upfront and open and aware of yourself and accepting of yourself within a relationship too. Isn't it, Mel? I mean, that's really what we're coming to with this podcast. It's this moment where we are happy with ourselves and we are able to continue that relationship with ourselves within a romantic relationship with someone else.
- [23:57]
B
It's the ultimate goal, really, isn't it? You know, we can, we can talk as much as we like about self actualization and all the work that we can do on being the best individual that we want to be. But we, but you and I, we're here to Talk about relationships, aren't we?
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A
We are.
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B
So imagine if you could take that self love, self acceptance, self respect into a great relationship.
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A
Well, although I do feel that I'm in a really lovely relationship with you now, Mel.
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B
That's great.
- [24:25]
A
It is. It's so great, and it's so emotionally fulfilling, and I feel that I'm showing up as myself. Yes. But we want to talk about this idea of being ourselves in relationships. And so we can't do that alone. Can we melt?
- [24:37]
B
Sadly, no.
- [24:38]
A
But we do have some very special guests for you today, dear listener.
- [24:43]
B
Very special and very secret guests.
- [24:50]
C
Hey, everyone, it's Jonathan Van Ness. If my dogs could talk, they'd be like, excuse me, Queen. Where's my Ollie? You better make it rain, diva, because we are not going to cuddle with you or anything if you don't get us our Ollie. And honestly, I can't blame them. Listen to titles of these little foods. It sounds like it'd be on a brunch menu. Fresh beef with sweet potatoes. Fresh turkey with blueberries. My dogs are eating better than I do, and I'm obsessed with that. Here's the best part. Ollie is the only fresh dog food with unlimited health screenings. You better screen your dog. Dogs deserve the best, and that means fresh, healthy food. Head to ollie.com. better tell them all about your dog and use code. Better to get 60% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today. Plus, they offer a happiness guarantee on the first box, so if you're not completely satisfied, you'll get your money back. That's O, l l I e dot com. Better. And enter code. Better to get 60% off your first box when you listen to.
- [25:54]
D
Nobody Listens to Paula Poundstone, the comedy podcast. You learn stuff.
- [25:58]
B
I've been learning to throw a boomerang connect.
- [26:01]
A
This is the kind of thing that really gets the listeners engaged.
- [26:03]
D
You know, interviews with people who will make you smarter. Does the amount that you learn protect.
- [26:09]
A
You from cognitive decline? Paula, don't try to catch that. Can't people just listen to the show? Can't they just enjoy a delightful treehouse full of information and. I think I'm bleeding.
- [26:21]
C
Join us and be a nobody.
- [26:27]
A
So we are very excited to announce.
- [26:31]
B
The most special of guests.
- [26:33]
A
The husband. The husband. Welcome.
- [26:37]
E
Nice to meet you.
- [26:38]
A
Absolutely. We have Justin, who is my husband.
- [26:41]
E
Hello.
- [26:42]
B
And Gareth, who is mine.
- [26:44]
D
What about you?
- [26:45]
A
This is the first time I've met Gareth. I'm thrilled by that. And the first time you two are sitting on a sofa together. We've already Discovered that you've plenty to bond over. You're not only married to us two fabulous women, but you both had a protein shake for breakfast. Breakfast we discovered on the side. Not the same one though, wasn't she?
- [27:03]
E
That's later.
- [27:05]
D
Absolutely.
- [27:06]
A
Well, you're looking very cozy. Never say never. Anyway, Mel and I have been talking throughout this podcast really, but specifically on this episode about the most important relationship you can have, which is firstly with yourself. Because you can only show up as yourself within a romantic relationship if you've taken the time to work on your self worth and self acceptance. And we would love to hear from you, Justin and Gareth, how you worked on your relationships with yourself before you met us. So Gareth, could I start with you?
- [27:40]
D
Absolutely.
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A
What age were you when you met the wonderful Mel?
- [27:43]
D
38.
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A
So what kind of work had you done on yourself?
- [27:47]
D
Well, just a small bit of background. So I went to Australia with my now ex wife. I was sponsored to go out there, did the whole thing, went to work one Wednesday morning and there was a note on the kitchen table, an old Dear John letter. She'd gone home, couldn't settle in Australia, expected me to go back. I wasn't for going back. I had settled there and was enjoying my life. And you know, in hindsight, the relationship had gone stale and whatever else now, you know, so you kind of expect then you damage your confidence and whatever else. But it was kind of the contrary. And I was kind of okay after a couple of days. This is probably the right thing to happen, you know. So interestingly, I stopped worrying about what other people thought, stopped worrying about, you know, no fear of rejection anymore because, you know, what's the worst that can happen kind of scenario, you know. So really after it was a year of kind of regressing back into my.
- [28:42]
A
20S, don't worry, Justin did the same thing.
- [28:44]
D
Yeah, I just became a mad shagger, basically, you know. But the interesting thing is when you're in your 30s, you don't have those kind of hang ups that you had before. You know, you're more comfortable in your own skin. But really it was a case of I wasn't really looking for a long term relationship. I was looking to establish myself in a new country, in a totally new environment. And it really kind of developed from there now, you know, I didn't feed the impending midnight crisis, so I wasn't a good place to start really.
- [29:12]
A
So would you say you were more intentional when it came to dating Mel or when it came to the point where you met her, that you had Been more deliberate with your choices than you might have been when you were 29?
- [29:24]
D
Not really, to be honest. It was exactly. I was never really looking for a long term relationship, but there was no real substance to what I was doing, you know, so friend of mine who was recently divorced recommended online dating, which I thought was for losers. I'm gonna be totally honest, like at the time Mel approached me, which, you know, she doesn't like to talk about.
- [29:42]
B
But anyway, so he says, it's perfectly incorrect.
- [29:45]
D
I should have screenshotted it. But anyway, like the mad thing was that it was like six, six weeks of chatting, which I'd never done before.
- [29:52]
A
Because it was long distance, wasn't it?
- [29:54]
D
Yeah. You know, the weirdest thing was, was, you know, it definitely wasn't something I was looking for. I was looking for a woman with a bit more substance, if I'm totally honest.
- [30:03]
A
But no, he doesn't mean then me. No, no, no. Oh my God. He means then the women who were seeing but you couldn't find one of them.
- [30:18]
D
That's exactly it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Right. But. But yeah, it's just not something I'd ever experienced before now. You know, you kind of get really into the nitty gritty of things now. You know, the real depth of it. So we almost established a relationship before we met, which was the weirdest thing.
- [30:34]
A
That's so interesting. And Justin coming. I feel like I should hand the questioning over to Mel here. But how much work had you done on yourself before meeting me? Because you, like Gareth, like me, had gone through a divorce and you found yourself single in your early 40s.
- [30:53]
E
Yeah, that's right, yes. So, yeah. Had been in a relationship for 17 years. Long time. You know, I hadn't really dated since sort of my early 20s. Right. When, you know, Internet dating didn't exist. There were no apps and you, you met people. So when I got divorced, it was a sort of confluence of several things. You know, my father died at the same time or a similar time. You know, my business was really starting to scale and actually, you know, I went back into therapy to deal with a lot of that. And that gave me an opportunity to sort of reflect and think about, you know, who I was and the way that I was wired and what I thought, you know, would make me happy going forward. And so I did quite a lot of work whilst also dating. So, you know, I would, I mean, it was just a mental time, but I would, I would do like therapy from 7 till 8, leave the therapy and then go on a D oh, therapy dating. Yeah, it's just mad. Anyway, I wasn't in a particularly stable mindset given everything that was going on and I was dating a lot and, and I felt that that was an important thing, you know, having not really dated for ever really, I wanted to take that opportunity to basically acquire data.
- [32:16]
A
Will you tell us quickly about the funnel theory of dating? The Justin Bussini funnel theory trade?
- [32:22]
E
Well, not yet. Well I, I think it's just generally and you talk about it a lot around failing is about data acquisition. And I think, you know, my advice to anybody and my advice to my kids is, is, you know, go and have lots of relationships, go meet a lot of people. Right. You have to, I think, give yourself the opportunity to work out what you really like and what is good for you and to get the information that you need to make a smart decision, especially about probably the most important decision of your life, which is who you're going to be with for the rest of your life. And I think certainly if you don't give yourself that opportunity, you end up sort of potentially defaulting into something which actually over time maybe doesn't meet what you need. And had you given yourself a little bit more time to collect more information. And so that's the funnel, so lots of people in the top and then you sort of of, you know, use all that data to find the diamond, find the person like you or Mel that you know is going to really work for you and that sets you up I think for the best opportunity to have a relationship that's going to be really meaningful.
- [33:33]
A
That's what we were talking about before, weren't we Mel? Where as long as you are clear about that with yourself and with whoever you're having these experiences with, then that can be a really good way of understanding who you are and what you want and need.
- [33:47]
B
Absolutely. And the idea of going out there and having some light hearted casual encounters is such a great way of acquiring some of that data as well. You know, as long as you're in a good place yourself and you're able to do that in a way that you know, protects your own self esteem and you know you're communicating really clearly with the other person. This is what I want from this experience and that all culminates in this picture of what I want, what my ideal partner is going to be a la this guy.
- [34:20]
A
We have touched on the nature of our communication, how important, and it's a question for both of you, is it to you that our relationships are interdependent rather than codependent, by which I mean that Mel and I can show up as ourselves, Gaz and Justin can show up as their selves, and we choose to be together, but we can also function incredibly well on parallel lines. Gaz, can I start with you?
- [34:45]
D
Yeah, absolutely. I think my sort of whole didn't experience like 95% of it was casual really now, you know, it was never, never really sought out, a long term relationship. Had two or three casual relationships and whatever else now, you know, so I never really had that dependency on anybody now, you know, I never really looked for that. But like both of my wives, you know, I don't want to sort of dwell on the past. Had that same sort of straightforwardness, that same courage, that same. They were both alpha females really now, you know that they were completely independent in totally different ways. You know, Mel had her own business, you know, she'd gone out there on her own. She was utterly fearless as far as I could see now, you know, so that was the. That was the building block really of the whole relationship. And you know, I always saw myself as a man's man and go out and be the breadwinner and whatever else, but. But that isn't the case at the minute at all, you know, and that's like our relationship is based on, you know, we've had to really duck and dive and change and you know, we've been through so many sort of experiences in terms of Mel's career and, you know, I've gradually taken a step further and further back and become the main parent in terms of rip, Matty and so on. Now, you know, I shouldn't say main parent, but you know what I'm trying to say. So our whole relationship has really been based on that kind of equality and, you know, the fact that we can take a step back and be ourselves at all times. We don't need to be in each other's face all the time now, you.
- [36:11]
A
Know, that fluidity sounds so enlightened.
- [36:17]
B
And I was reflecting on it the other day and essentially for our whole relationship, we've been apart for a quarter of that time because three months of every year I'm away filming. And so that's a quarter of our relationship.
- [36:31]
D
Certainly since Maddie was born.
- [36:32]
B
Since Maddie was born. So the last 10 years. Y.
- [36:35]
A
And so that's.
- [36:36]
B
I think that's really helped in many ways. It's tough, don't get me wrong, it's really tough, particularly now that Maddie's getting older. It's tough being away, but it does ensure that we do have our independence as well as the interdependence when we come back together.
- [36:49]
D
Yeah. You know, to have that time, you know, like that 95% of men wouldn't have, fathers wouldn't have, you know, it's just incredible. And just molding this little person, you know, who's just, you know, it's the probably my proudest achievement, I've got to be totally honest, you know.
- [37:06]
A
Justin, what are your reflections on that interdependency versus codependency? Because codependency was definitely something that I struggled with in, in my past experiences. And one of the things that you were so good at.
- [37:18]
E
I think the key thing for me is that I think it is not good for a relationship when you just assume that it is going to continue. And so every day I think to myself, you know, that thing that we've talked about, Elizabeth, which is, you know, we're walking together and, you know, that is a. A decision that we make every day. And I see it in, in our relationship, you know, when we haven't been together, for example, we are slightly misattuned with each other and we need to work to bring that back together. You know, I'm sure when you're away a lot, you know, you then need to work to like, bring. Bring yourselves back on that path together. And I think that is actually, you know, quite a healthy thing to just remember that you've got to work at it every day, walking your own path, but holding hands.
- [38:08]
A
Oh, so good.
- [38:09]
B
I love that.
- [38:10]
A
So good. And actually, you're so right. The daily work, the daily recommitment is the romance. And you were also incredibly helpful from a very early stage with me, Justin, saying things like, I'm really good at accepting feedback, which might sound like I'm in a business meeting, but actually, for someone who was so worried about saying what she felt or what she wanted and that that would drive someone away or trigger someone's anger, it was such a relief to hear that. And actually, when we do have those moments of feeling slightly distant, I will often say I'm feeling a little disconnected from you. And you accept that and we understand. I think that when one of us says something like that, it's because we have our love and the relationship at the center of our minds. So tell me about you two, Mel. How do you cope with those moments of disconnection?
- [39:08]
B
Well, there's always a transition period, isn't there? When I come back from being away.
- [39:11]
D
We'Re in it at the minute we're.
- [39:12]
B
In it right now, and we think we're doing well this time, don't we?
- [39:15]
D
Yeah, I think so. It's. Look, obviously what's happened in the past year has really. It sort of informed that, you know, it's just been. The whole dynamic has changed in that respect. I think for you as well, you.
- [39:26]
A
Know, talking about Mel's health issues, talking.
- [39:28]
D
About the cancer and the chemotherapy and all that kind of thing, it's just. It really, you know, it puts things into a massive perspective, you know, and just, you know, even if I didn't hear from her in a particular day, I was thinking we should get sick again or just really just odd things now, you know, like, you know, I think we'll probably come on to it. But, you know, the whole nature of love changes so radically, you know, when something like that happens now, you know, like, love for me has been going into a quiet room and crying, you know, because I'm just so worried about her health all the time. And then having to be happy with my daughter all the time now. You know, just having that kind of dichotomy in your life and it's just, you know, feeling almost like it's just too much for you now, you know, just having that constantly sort of wearing away at you, you know. But, yeah, so it's made it. I think we've made much more of an effort this time, you know, because, you know, it's the whole. You're talking about the kind of interdependency and whatever else, you know, when Mel came back, things were going in a certain way in the past now, you know, and then it's like there's a bit of a clash because we're independent people.
- [40:30]
B
And I'd come in and try and take over.
- [40:31]
D
Well, absolutely, you know, and then there would be, you know, with Maddie. Then, you know, Mel obviously has the mama guilt, and then I don't want to let go of that and whatever. Whereas this time, I think we've all been more mindful of it. And because my daughter's now 10 and just incredibly perceptive little person now, you.
- [40:46]
B
Know, it's okay to call her our daughter.
- [40:48]
D
What?
- [40:49]
A
She's not just yours.
- [40:53]
D
Let's get into your language kind of set. But yeah, she's, you know, been mindful of it. Even the dog has been much better with you this time.
- [41:01]
B
He has been. He's still making eye contact with me.
- [41:03]
D
Yeah, well, he now gets involved in family cuddles of a weekend. You know, we'll call a family cuddle no matter where we are in the house and then everybody comes around, the dog jumps up and we all of a big cuddle then. We're quite a tactile family in that.
- [41:15]
B
Respect, but we're huggers.
- [41:17]
A
Yeah, I found that so moving when G said love for me has been sitting in a room crying and then being happy for our daughter. I can't even imagine what that's like for you to hear as well. That's just so beautiful. No question. Just. Yeah, wanted to say that.
- [41:43]
D
Race the rudders.
- [41:44]
E
Raise the sails. Race the sails.
- [41:46]
A
Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching. Over. Roger, wait.
- [41:51]
D
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- [42:12]
B
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- [42:42]
A
So we've got some more fun quick fire questions. Good seamless link. What was the thing that you think most scared you when we started getting serious? Was there anything that scared you? Justin?
- [43:02]
E
Well, the thing that was and has been the most challenging in our relationship is, you know, our fertility journey.
- [43:11]
A
Yeah.
- [43:12]
E
You know, that has been frightening at times for, I mean, mostly for you. But you know, as a sort of part of that, it's been, I, you know, we've been, I've been through experiences with you that I have never been through with anybody else. And, and going through that has, it's very, very challenging and emotional and difficult to go through.
- [43:35]
A
I think one of the things that might have been most frightening was the idea that I would perpetually be unhappy because I was engaged. We were engaged in this sort of fertility struggle. And I imagine that at points it felt like there was no end in sight and that this could either way make me somehow unbalanced or feel like our relationship wasn't enough. Or does that.
- [44:05]
E
Yeah, I think so. But it's more the fact you don't, I, you know, I don't want to watch somebody who I love in pain all the time. And that process was incredibly painful emotionally, physically, requiring huge resilience and so there's a certain amount of trepidation that that is going to be a permanent sort of situation rather than something that will resolve one way or the other.
- [44:34]
A
And how do you feel about it now, just for anyone who's listening, who's going through that and has the same fear?
- [44:40]
E
Well, I think if for somebody going through it, I mean, it is, you know, the way I think about it is. Is it. It was an honor and a privilege to go through that with you. You know, I definitely see it as, like, I'm glad that I went through that with you in. In, you know, in a way, even though it was incredibly painful. And, you know, I think you. You making the decisions that you've made, you know, I deeply respect that because, you know, you had to lean into some very, very, very difficult things and, you know, you've resolved that. That for the time being. And, you know, these things are never necessarily permanent, but for the time being. And you. You are in a. In a much happier place than I've seen than. You're just getting better and better and happier and happier. I think having gone through that, come through to the other side, done the work and made the decisions that you've made.
- [45:38]
A
Thank you. I like to think we've made the decision, so.
- [45:43]
E
Yeah, we have, but, yes, we. Of course we have made the decisions, but. But it's. It's. It's fallen on your shoulders to actually have to do the work because it's you. I mean, it's obviously both of us, but it's you having to give up that dream and move on from that. And that's been an amazing. I mean, I deeply respect you for having, you know, made those decisions and been able to get to the other side of that.
- [46:09]
A
That.
- [46:09]
E
Because it's. It's very, very hard.
- [46:12]
A
Thank you so much. There's no one else I would have wanted to go through that with. I didn't think you were going to say that. I thought you were going to say that you were scared about moving in together in case I was angry that you'd leave teaspoons on the counter, which was never. Never, actually.
- [46:27]
E
Yeah, that was the second.
- [46:29]
D
That was the second one.
- [46:29]
A
Okay, Gaz.
- [46:31]
D
Okay. I'm gonna introduce a little bit of levity because it kind of ties in with what you're talking about. So two months after we'd met and Mel invited me to a corporate day at the races to come wealth bank or something like that, and, you know, you know what the races are like, you know, particularly In Australia, everybody gets leathered. So we're walking out of the races. Mel bursts into tears and says, what if I can't have any children?
- [46:54]
A
What if I can't have.
- [46:55]
D
What if I'm not going to be enough? Would never mention children, by the way. Never mention moving in. It's like probably our third or fourth date, you know, I'm like, Jesus. Woman's 38. She's never been married. Okay. So she's obviously a complete psychopath. So at that point I'm like, okay, I need to take a step back.
- [47:15]
A
Yeah, swear away.
- [47:16]
D
Okay, step back here, you know. But look, in terms of, of the fear, it was really just I'd established myself in Australia, I was in Adelaide. I was really loving my life then. It was just that other disruptor now, you know, it was like, I think I'm too old for it to have any kids. You know, I was 38 at the time now, you know, and you know, you were 42 then when you had, when you had Maddie. But at the time I was like, I might, I might think I'm okay where I am. You know what I mean?
- [47:43]
A
Yeah.
- [47:43]
D
Like I'm falling for a bit of stage, but I'm like, maybe I'm okay where I am, you know, so there's, I think it's probably a natural fear that every bloke like that point when it's going to be your second huge relationship, you know, just diving in there and whether, you know, everything just seems so perfect here, despite the cries at the races, you know, but there's that just that kind of overall fear, like, I'm okay where I am, you know, I can cook my own, I'm an independent man kind of thing, you know?
- [48:10]
A
Yeah. Why would you introduce something, some new substance into your already well balanced protein shake of life. But what I really enjoy about that anecdote is that Mel Schilling, for so many of us is this extraordinary powerful woman, a relationship guru that liked of.
- [48:30]
E
Which we've never known.
- [48:31]
A
She's a clinically qualified, completely brilliant or married at first sight. Just wonderful. Even more wonderful when you meet her and so enlightened and yet even she, at some point, even though she can teach us how to date that at some points you just have to let yourself be yourself. Absolutely.
- [48:52]
B
And fall into a puddle of tears in a pub.
- [48:55]
D
Absolutely.
- [48:56]
A
Yeah.
- [48:56]
D
She's a lightweight though. Like two or three directions away, that's all it takes.
- [48:59]
A
I can't wait for us to go out and celebrate. Okay, I could talk to both of you. I actually would like to. This is so therapeutic. Several more hours. Yes. I wonder if we could start drawing this to a reluctant close by asking about happiness. Because I think for many years I was under the mistaken delusion that it was my job to make my romantic partner happy. And I now realize that it isn't. What do you two think about that? Is it your job, Justin, to make me happy?
- [49:34]
E
No.
- [49:35]
A
Why not?
- [49:35]
E
You have. It's your own job. It's everybody's job to make themselves happy, comfortable, confident, self esteem, all of that. And for a lot of people, including myself, you know, that, I mean, think for everybody, that is a journey, but that, that, you know, I think it's, it's. It's your own responsibility as an individual to do that and to get yourself into the right situation. And if you do have that right mindset, you will, I think, be much more effective in a relationship. Now that's not to say that I also don't think that there's a responsibility to, you know, bring happy moments and lightness and fun and, you know, things that we enjoy together into the relationship. And I think we both do that. But fundamentally, it's your responsibility for yourself to be happy and it's my responsibility. And if we do that, we walk together.
- [50:27]
A
Such a good way of putting it. Because the distinction between making someone happy and introducing happy things into our joint life. I remember there was one specific weekend a couple of years ago when Justin was super stressed at work, had lots going on, and I said, what is sparking joy in your life right now? And he said, I can't think of anything. I was like, right, I need to take action. And I booked a karaoke booth just for the two of us on a Saturday afternoon. Oh, my gosh. Double day. Double day. And now we do that when we need to introduce that levity. We absolutely loved it. And it was like, it was completely transformative. And I think that's such a good distinction. I'm going to come to you next, Mel, and then I'll come to Gaz about this idea of happiness in a relationship. Whose responsibility?
- [51:14]
B
Firstly, I just want to say you should see us doing a rendition of paradise by the Dashboard Light by Meatloaf. Oh, yeah. Niche.
- [51:21]
A
That is so niche.
- [51:22]
B
Very niche. Yeah. And we are pretty amazing as a duo.
- [51:26]
D
Just building it up.
- [51:29]
B
Back to happiness. I love the way you've described it, Justin. I think that's really cool. And I noticed that you were with making the hand gestures of your parallel lines again. I love that because that's what it needs to be. That's what interdependence is. And we see relationships all the time where it is one person desperately requiring the other person to make them happy, outsourcing their happiness really to the other partner. And it's just a recipe for disaster.
- [51:56]
A
I think.
- [51:57]
B
Well, something we've grown into is getting happiness from each other's good moments or successes, don't we? I can see that that's gradually developed over time. And I can see, for example, if I have an achievement, I can look to you and I can see absolute deep happiness in your eyes because you're living it with me. And similarly, when either of us has had difficulty or grief, you know, we definitely know that the other person is experiencing it right there alongside each other.
- [52:30]
D
Yeah, I think, you know, people just think about television. When you're in television, you've made it and whatever else. No, you know, Mel gave up a really successful career. She'd spent years and years building this career up. And it went against every instinct of mine to back her in on this, but it did because I could see who she was as a person, who she could potentially be. But most of all, I could see that this was her vocation at last life, this is where she needed to be. That's not really so much saying, okay, you know what, it's my job to make her happy. But it's more I could see what made her happy. I could see what ultimately was going to make her happy. And I backed her in, in that respect. Now, you know, I think a lot of the time in a relationship, particularly, you know, 13 years we've been together, you got to get back to why you fell in love in the first instance. Now, you know, you know what it was about that person, you know, because you get bogged down in the day to day life now. You know, like one thing we haven't been so good at recently is having a date night, you know, just getting a babysitter, going out on a Wednesday night, going to a show, just chatting, you know, as a result, then it makes the other person happy, you know, because it's then you're connected again. You're remembering who you were, you know, rather than who you were coming.
- [53:38]
A
I think that's such a good point to end on because we've come back to the idea of dating, but dating within a long term relationship in order that we can continue showing up for each other and showing up as ourselves and reconnecting as ourselves with each other on those parallel lines. But hand in hand. I have absolutely loved this chat. Thank you so much to both of you. Yeah. How's it been for both of you?
- [54:06]
E
Have you enjoyed it though? Loved it.
- [54:07]
D
I'm now comfortable in the tiny sofa. Yeah.
- [54:12]
E
Dying for a pretty shake now.
- [54:14]
A
Yes. You're low on the protein. Okay, one final, very brief thought from each of you. For anyone listening to how to Date who is stuck in the wilds of dating and they feel dispirited and drained and like it's not worth it and it's not going their way, what one piece of advice would each of you give to that listener?
- [54:34]
E
It's a journey and you don't have to be on that journey all the time. It is, it is tiring. There's no doubt about it. You're putting yourself out there. You're having to put your best clothes on and be entertaining and all of that sort of stuff. And that does take it out of you. And so it. I think you need to, when you're tired or in a difficult, you know, you've run out of steam, take some time away, take some time for yourself. You retool, take six months off. Dates will still be there. Tinder's gonna still be there. They're all gonna be there. Right. You get yourself into the right mindset, then. Then go again.
- [55:11]
A
Great advice.
- [55:12]
D
Yeah, look, I can only echo that. I think the only other thing I would say is don't try and be who you think people want you to be on a date because it's completely inauthentic and it's never going to lead to a long term relationship. You know, you've got to be yourself, not completely warts and all because, you know, there are certain aspects of your personality that are going to irritate your future partner.
- [55:32]
A
Sort the genital warts out first. Absolutely. Part of self love promise.
- [55:37]
D
Not to mention. Yeah, be honestly, you just gotta be yourself. I think, like, take your time, have one day at a week. Have one day every couple of weeks, you know, but be yourself at the, at the core, really.
- [55:50]
A
Mel, I just want to say from a personal perspective, what a joy it's been working with you and getting to know you and learning so much from you. Thank you so, so much for making how to Date your first ever podcast. I'm so privileged and thrilled. What are your reflections on the series?
- [56:10]
B
Well, firstly, thank you so much for having me and allowing me to be your partner in this because. Wow, talk about a privilege. You're someone I've admired for so long, so thank you so much.
- [56:23]
A
God, I feel the same. Sorry, Gaz. Do you mind giving us a moment? Thank you finally to our wonderful community of listeners. We have loved being in your company. Thank you for all of your comments, all of your messages. It is the last episode of our eight week podcast, but we are going to come back. Oh yes. With a very special bonus where we answer some of your questions. So we're not going just yet, but we hope that you have found enough to be encouraged by, enough to be educated by. And we hope that you enjoy falling in love with yourself first and then, hopefully, surely, the rest will follow. Thank you so, so much for listening to How To Date. And it's a goodbye from me, Elizabeth.
- [57:10]
B
Day, and from me, Mel Schilling.
- [57:16]
A
How to Date is proudly sponsored by Morrisons. Mel and I are on a mission to revolutionise dating. We want to make it better for everyone. And what better way to do that than to get you lovely listeners to sign up to a good dating pledge? Mel and I have designed 10 dating commandments. Things like, I will communicate clearly and with kindness. I will not ghost or breadcrumb. I will always ask consent. And you can go and sign up just by putting your email in. That's all we ask. You can go and sign up at thepodclass.co.uk. that's ThePodClass. P O-C-L-A-S S.co.uk Day let's make dating better for everyone. Thank you so much for listening. Please do, like, follow and share with everyone you know who might want to listen to. And who knows, one of them might even turn out to be your future romantic partner. This is a Daylight Productions and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast.
- [58:15]
E
That was good.
- [58:18]
A
That was absolutely incredible.
- [58:21]
D
I love Australia.
- [58:24]
A
Thank you. I know.
- [58:35]
D
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- [58:41]
E
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D
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