Podcast Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: How To Fail With Elizabeth Day
Episode: Jane Goodall on Optimism, Hope, and Conservation
Date: October 2, 2025
Host: Elizabeth Day
Guest: Dr. Jane Goodall

This episode is a profound conversation with Dr. Jane Goodall, the pioneering primatologist and conservationist, reflecting on her lifelong work, her philosophy of hope, and the role of failure in her journey. Jane discusses what she’s learned from chimpanzees, her personal failures, the power of hope and optimism, her activism, and the importance of childhood influence, all with a warmth and wisdom that is both accessible and inspiring.

Key Themes and Insights

1. The Nature of Hope and Optimism

[06:21–08:43]

• Innate vs. Learned Hope: Jane believes people may be born with optimism or pessimism, but one can acquire hope through life experiences, often requiring conscious effort.
  • Jane Goodall: “I think we can probably acquire it, but I think people are born. You know, there is an innate optimism or an innate pessimism, but I think the experiences we go through in life can change that. But we might have to work on it.” [06:21]
• Optimism vs. Hope:
  • Jane Goodall: “Optimism can be. Oh, I just hope it'll be okay. And hope is when it is tied in with action.” [07:41]
  • She uses the metaphor of a long, dark tunnel with a star of hope visible at the end, emphasizing that hope requires action and perseverance, not passive wishing.

2. The Indomitable Human Spirit

[08:43–10:50]

• Jane Goodall: “I have met people who have tackled tasks that seem utterly impossible and people who've overcome really daunting physical disabilities. And most people would just give up at that point. But these incredible people battle on.” [09:19]
• Example: Chris Kock, born without arms and legs, who inspires others with his zest for life and resilience.
• Jane credits the encouragement from supportive family—especially her mother—as critical to her own spirit.

3. Origins: Childhood, Family, and First Dreams

[10:50–15:36]

• Jane’s childhood dream at age 10 was to go to Africa, live with animals, and write about them—unusual and laughed at in 1940s Britain except by her mother.
  • Jane Goodall: “If you really want to do something like this, you're going to have to work awfully hard, take advantage of every opportunity, and if you don't give up, maybe find a way.” [11:03]
• The story of saving money as a waitress and the importance of a mother's support in overcoming societal barriers.

4. Bringing Empathy to Science

[12:25–15:36]

• Jane’s lack of formal scientific training was an advantage: she gave names, not numbers, to chimpanzees and was open to recognizing animal personality, mind, and emotion—less reductionist and more empathetic.
  • Jane Goodall: “Would you have declined to give them names and given them numbers… Would you not have dared to speak about personality, mind and emotion? …that was my dog, Rusty. You can't share your life in a meaningful way with a dog, a cat, a horse… and not know that, of course, we're not alone.” [13:31–14:42]

5. Breakthroughs and Setbacks in Chimpanzee Research

[15:43–21:11]

• It took months to gain the chimpanzees’ trust; a chimp named David Greybeard was the first to accept her, leading to the historic discovery of chimpanzee tool use—overturning scientific dogma.
  • Jane Goodall: “I named him David Greybeard… I saw him using and making tools to fish for termites. That changed everything. …at that time, science thought humans and only humans used and made tools.” [15:43–17:07]
• Jane describes the exhaustion and challenge of fame, deciding to use it for advocacy.

6. Grief, Loss, and Living in the Moment

[21:11–22:22]

• Grieving animals: Jane describes a different sadness when animals disappeared (like David Greybeard) versus finding their bodies (like Flo and Melissa).
• Jane Goodall: “My worst grief over an animal death was losing Rusty. That was terrible.” [21:42]
• Her ability to live in the present moment helps her cope with grief and stress.

7. Failure in Chimp Societies and Human Life

[22:22–24:41]

• Chimpanzees react differently to hierarchical failure: some persist despite setbacks, others never try again—mirroring human resilience.
  • Jane Goodall: “Some of them will get attacked by their superiors and that's it. One bad attack and they stop trying. Others, …and they never stop and they win. They get up to the top.” [22:33]
• Jane sees herself as someone who keeps getting back up—a “weighted doll” that always bounces back.

8. Personal Failures: Languages, Boards, and Correspondence

[24:41–53:02]

A) Failure at Languages and School
[27:26–31:07]

• Jane struggled with languages (possibly linked to mild face blindness) but believes school failures can be transformative.
  • Jane Goodall: “Maybe my first real failure was leaving my primary school and all my classmates… But into that class came a French girl… She became my best, best, best friend. And it was she who invited me to Kenya. How I met Louis Leakey.” [24:50–25:56]

B) Failure to Convince Her Own Boards
[35:47–40:39]

• Roots & Shoots, now a global youth empowerment program for environment and animals, was initially dismissed by her boards as “not about chimpanzees” and faced strong resistance.
  • Jane Goodall: “Oh, because it's nothing to do. We're here to save chimpanzees, right? It was just so narrow minded.” [38:16]
• She prevailed by gradually changing the team and demonstrating the initiative’s success.

C) Failure with Correspondence
[47:59–51:06]

• Jane receives thousands of letters and emails and cannot answer them all, leading to feelings of guilt.
  • Jane Goodall: “I cannot do it all. So I try to do the most important ones, and then what happens is I put them aside because I really want to think about them, and then they get lost in the deluge that comes afterwards. So it's a failure.” [48:23]
• She refuses to allow her institutes to write fake personal replies, valuing genuine communication.

9. Science, Spirituality, and Mystery

[40:39–45:12]

• Jane feels her life has a sense of mission and often senses a greater intelligence or pattern.
  • Jane Goodall: “There has to be something behind all of this. There's so many scientists today, top scientists, who have all agreed there is intelligence behind the creation of the universe.” [41:13]
• Mystical experiences (including posthumous dreams and feelings after her husband Derek’s death) reinforce her belief in something beyond death.

10. Parenting, Society, and the Modern World

[53:02–54:19, 51:06–52:34]

• Jane reflects on her own parenting, feeling she wasn’t always present but believes that having a consistent, supportive adult figure is key.
  • Jane Goodall: “I think the key thing is… there’s a tiny circle… who are always there for them, who are supporting them, who they can rely on.” [53:30]
• Critiques constant connectivity and the societal shift away from imagination and in-person relationships.

11. Activism, Fame, and Influence

[54:19–57:25]

• Memorable encounters with world leaders (such as President Gorbachev) and celebrities (e.g. Leonardo DiCaprio) who support conservation.
  • Jane Goodall: “Leonardo DiCaprio is passionate about the environment and he is a real friend. …I answer his emails.” [54:42–55:06]
• Advocates for activism through storytelling that appeals to people’s hearts, not direct confrontation.

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On What Hope Is:

  • Jane Goodall: “Hope is when it is tied in with action. The way I see our human race at the moment is as though we're at the mouth of a very, very long and very dark tunnel. And right at the end … is a little tiny pinprick of light, a little star. That's hope. …We've got to gird our loins and crawl under, climb over, work our way around the tremendous obstacles that lie between us and that star.” [07:41]

• On Empathy for Animals:

  • Jane Goodall: “You can't share your life in a meaningful way with a dog, a cat, a horse, …and not know that, of course, we're not alone.” [14:42]

• On Fame:

  • Jane Goodall: “I thought, well, this has happened. I didn't want it to happen. It just happened, so I better make use of it.” [17:35]

• On Resilience:

  • Jane Goodall: “I think I'm like one of those dolls with weighted bottoms. You hit them over and they bounce up. And that's because I'm obstinate and I'm not going to give up. …I'll spend the last of my days fighting corruption, fighting climate change, fighting loss of biodiversity, fighting poverty.” [22:33]

• On Board Resistance to Roots and Shoots:

  • Jane Goodall: “Because it's nothing to do [with chimpanzees]. We're here to save chimpanzees, right? It was just so narrow minded.” [38:16]

• On Spiritual Belief:

  • Jane Goodall: “When we die, well, either there's nothing which is fine, or there's something. I happen to believe there's something… I can't think of a more exciting adventure than finding out what that something is.” [44:32]

• On Consoling the Hopeless:

  • Jane Goodall: “What you do may not seem important, but do it and get some people to help you do it. …Work at that, you’ll find you’ve made a difference and that’ll make you feel good. …Act locally, feel good about it, know that other people all around the world are doing the same thing, and then you dare think globally.” [57:40]

• On Imagination and Childhood:

  • Jane Goodall: “Storytelling has just always been. …Before the days of television and social media, we sat around and we talked and we told stories and we laughed and we had fun. …We no longer have the power of imagination.” [31:39–32:59]

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |------------------|------------------------------------------------| | 06:21–08:43 | Hope versus optimism, the necessity of action | | 09:19–10:50 | The indomitable human spirit, family influence | | 10:50–15:36 | Jane’s childhood, getting to Africa, mother’s role | | 15:43–17:07 | First contact with chimpanzees, tool use, groundbreaking discoveries | | 22:22–24:41 | Resilience and failure in chimpanzees and humans| | 24:50–31:07 | Personal failures at school and with languages | | 35:47–40:39 | Roots & Shoots—struggles and eventual success | | 40:39–45:12 | Spirituality, mystical experiences, view on afterlife | | 51:06–54:19 | Reflection on correspondence, digital society, and parenting | | 57:40–End | Advice to the hopeless, power of acting locally |

Final Reflections

Elizabeth Day closes with gratitude for Jane’s wisdom and perseverance, and Jane responds with characteristic humility and humor, confirming she’ll be reunited with her beloved stuffed chimp Jubilee once the exhibition is done.

Dr. Jane Goodall’s legacy, as captured in this episode, is one of hope rooted in action, resilience through setbacks, and courage in living a life true to her passions and empathy—for animals, people, and the planet.