Jennette McCurdy on Reclaiming Her Voice

Summary

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Podcast Summary: How to Fail with Elizabeth Day

Episode: Jennette McCurdy on Reclaiming Her Voice

Release Date: February 18, 2026
Host: Elizabeth Day
Guest: Jennette McCurdy

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Episode Overview

In this emotionally resonant and enlightening episode, Elizabeth Day sits down with writer and former actress Jennette McCurdy. The conversation delves into McCurdy’s ongoing journey of self-discovery through failure, the complexities of her upbringing in the Mormon faith, her battles with eating disorders, her evolution as a writer, and her pursuit of healthier relationships. The episode is characterized by warmth, candor, and mutual vulnerability as the two women reflect on the liberating power of telling the truth, the lessons hidden in setbacks, and the reclamation of one’s own voice.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Writing as Truth and Liberation

• Writing Honestly, Not Socially: Jennette explores how she channels “the 90% of my thoughts that you really shouldn't say out loud” into her work, where honesty is not just accepted but celebrated.
  • Quote (05:03):

    “90% of my thoughts are things that you really shouldn't say out loud in any sort of social setting…yet writing them down, they're then sort of hailed as, like, so brave.” — Jennette McCurdy

• The Cost of People-Pleasing: Both women connect over societal expectations for women to be agreeable, discussing the toll and frustration of accommodating everyone else.
  • Quote (05:58):

    “Be accommodating at the expense of your own feelings… I'm really sick of that.” — Jennette McCurdy

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2. The Success and Reception of ‘Half His Age’

• Jennette reflects on her debut novel’s critical and commercial acclaim, and her relief at being met with respect, not skepticism.
  • Quote (06:45):

    “I thought there would be a real, you know, kind of arms crossed, skepticism… and that hasn't been the case at all.” — Jennette McCurdy

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3. Growing Up Mormon: Guilt, Expectations, and Self-Perception

• Discussion about how Mormon upbringing instilled guilt, particularly sexual and self-effacing guilt, shaping her tendencies toward people-pleasing.
  • Quote (08:47):

    “There’s a lot of inherent guilt to the culture, sexual guilt, and just kind of almost a guilt for existing.” — Jennette McCurdy

• Jennette offers a nuanced view, acknowledging the comfort and community she experienced even as she now recognizes the harm in restrictive gender roles.

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4. From Memoir to Novel: The Creative Process

• Jennette shares the story of abandoning a previous novel—her first “failure”—to write ‘Half His Age,’ propelled by an unstoppable bodily instinct.
  • Quote (15:47):

    “It's the honeymoon phase. Yeah. You're dating, you're having sex a lot. Like, it's great. And then it becomes work. Inevitably becomes work, and the honeymoon phase kind of fades.” — Jennette McCurdy

• She reflects on the importance of trusting her instincts and bodily knowledge, after years of dissociation from her own body.
  • Quote (19:43):

    “It had to be birthed. Like, it was so in my body, you know…” — Jennette McCurdy

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5. On Age-Gap Relationships and Empathy for Complex Characters

• Jennette discusses her own age-gap relationship at 18 and how a personal connection to the subject matter informs her fiction. She’s careful to craft Mr. Corgi, the antagonist, as a rounded, believable character, not a villain—because “nobody ever thinks they're the bad guy.”
  • Quote (22:06):

    “Ultimately, I do believe that people are trying their best and failing miserably. Everybody.” — Jennette McCurdy

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6. Family Dynamics and Writing as Processing

• Dysfunctional families are a recurring theme—both in McCurdy’s writing and personal experience. She uses fiction to process and seek closure for familial wounds.
  • Quote (25:12):

    “I think family dysfunction or complicated family dynamics are something that I will always explore. I just wouldn't know how to write, you know, clean, kind of healthy family dynamics.” — Jennette McCurdy

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7. The Value of Failure—Resilience, Character, and the Universe’s Plans

• Elizabeth and Jennette connect over how failure dismantles ego and social scripts; they both see failure as a teacher and a way to a more authentic self.
  • Quote (28:53):

    “I'd rather not have to be resilient. Wouldn't it be great? Or like, oh, you know, challenges build character. I could afford less character.” — Jennette McCurdy

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8. Eating Disorder Recovery: Slips, Shame, and Self-Compassion

• Jennette details the genesis of her disordered eating, rooted in maternal influence and family dynamics, and the shame associated with the shift from anorexia to bulimia.
  • Quote (31:59):

    “It was as gross as it is to say it was a bonding opportunity for us. I perceived it as a bonding opportunity for me.” — Jennette McCurdy

• Recovery was non-linear, full of slip-ups. She emphasizes the importance of reframing setbacks as learning opportunities, not proof of failure.
  • Quote (41:59):

    “He emphasized the importance of not letting slips become slides… When you have a slip, you sit with yourself… What can I learn from this?” — Jennette McCurdy

  • Quote (43:51):

    “All failure is data acquisition.” — Elizabeth Day

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9. Listening to the Body: Reclaiming Intuition and Voice

• Both women share their struggles and revelations around tuning into bodily signals, overcoming people-pleasing, and reclaiming their “no” alongside their “yes.”
  • Quote (46:08):

    “If I feel constricted or if I feel my body feels a no… now I listen to my no’s.” — Jennette McCurdy

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10. Rage as Power and Women’s Emotional Expression

• The conversation returns repeatedly to the idea of righteous anger, so often suppressed in women, as a source of clarity and creative energy.
  • Quote (50:03):

    “There's always quote, hell hath not—what is it hell? What is it? — Helth? No fury like a woman scorned. It's like, yeah, damn fucking straight.” — Jennette McCurdy

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11. Relationship Failures: From Dysfunction to Safety

• Jennette candidly discusses her patterns of tumultuous relationships, the discomfort of personal and mutual dysfunction, and her long journey to a secure, healthy partnership.
  • Quote (51:55):

    “I wanted something healthy, I wanted something sturdy. I wanted something that felt like we were both growing separately as individuals and together.” — Jennette McCurdy

• Both Elizabeth and Jennette talk about "Walkaway Wife Syndrome"—emotionally checking out after exhausting all attempts to repair a relationship.
  • Quote (54:06):

    "It's sort of this idea that you have cried so many tears throughout the course of the relationship that by the time you are ready to leave, you're wiped out. You're almost stone cold." — Jennette McCurdy

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12. Healing and Lasting Love

• The episode closes with Jennette describing her lasting, healthy relationship—one that finally brought her calm and ease, unlike the urgent chaos of previous relationships.
  • Quote (57:59):

    “He’s my best friend….I was instantly extremely attracted to him, but had a sense of calm in my body. There was zero urgency.” — Jennette McCurdy

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Notable Memorable Moments & Quotes

• On Resilience:

  “I don’t need to be resilient. I can afford less character. Let’s go, baby.”
  — Jennette McCurdy (28:58)

• On Trauma and Interviewer Sensitivity:

  “It can be challenging when…people will ask questions about the memoir, which I wrote years ago…Can we just. Not for a second?”
  — Jennette McCurdy (15:03)

• On Women’s Intuition:

  “There is nothing more powerful than a woman's intuition…Our bodies have inherent knowledge.”
  — Jennette McCurdy (17:38)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Writing Honest Truth & Social Expectations: 05:03–06:37
• Reception to ‘Half His Age’: 06:45–07:49
• Growing up Mormon & Guilt: 08:47–12:01
• Transitioning from Memoir to Fiction: 15:10–17:14
• Body Denial and Intuitive Creative Work: 17:14–19:43
• Empathy for Flawed Characters: 22:06–24:01
• Family Dynamics & Writing: 25:12–26:04
• Value of Failure: 26:09–29:15
• Eating Disorder Origins and Recovery: 31:59–43:56
• Listening to the Body: 46:08–47:11
• Rage and Women’s Emotional Expression: 49:44–50:15
• Failures in Relationships & ‘Walkaway Wife Syndrome’: 50:25–55:52
• Finding a Safe Relationship: 57:59–59:39

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Closing Reflection

This episode stands out as a healing, deeply honest dialogue about how confronting our failures—rather than shrinking from them—can be the most transformative act of all. Through Jennette’s stories and Elizabeth’s empathetic questioning, listeners are offered a blueprint for reclaiming agency, learning from mistakes, and stepping into an authentic self.
The episode is both unflinching and uplifting, full of laughter, mutual recognition, and testimony to the profound power of vulnerability.

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Transcript

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I think oftentimes a woman is perceived as difficult if the person around her can't meet her standards. Growing up in that religion, there's a lot of inherent guilt to the culture, sexual guilt and just kind of almost a guilt for existing challenges. Build character. I could afford less character. Like I don't need to be resilient. I can afford less character. Let's go baby.

[Elizabeth Day]

I feel this interview is just. It's so serendipitous. Like everything that you are saying is feeding directly into my soul. Welcome to how to Fail, the podcast that believes all failure is a portal to self discovery. Before we get into this conversation, please do remember to subscribe and follow so that you never miss a single episode. Hello, this is Elizabeth Day from the how to Fail podcast. I wanted to share something I'm genuinely excited about. One of my favourite UK wellness brands, Ancient and Brave, has just launched in the us. I've used two of their products in my daily routine and they've made a tangible difference. The first is True Creatine Plus. With added taurine, vitamin D and magnesium, it supports physical performance, energy and cognitive function. It's easy to take at home or on the go, whether I'm working out or not. I also use their clinically studied True Collagen, a pure, potent and powerful staple that supports skin elasticity and hydration as well as whole body health. It's EU sourced, so free from growth hormones or antibiotics, plus it's neutral in taste and dissolves effortlessly into coffee or smoothies or a cup of tea. I would say that as a Brit, wouldn't I? Ancient and Brave are proud members of 1% for the planet, meaning that 1% of their sales go to environmental causes, wellness that feels good and does good too. Go to ancientandbrave.com planet and use the code howtofail. That's how to fail. No spaces or one word for $10 off any purchase. Masterclass is the streaming platform that makes it possible for anyone to watch or listen to hundreds of video lessons taught by more than 200 of the world's best. Whether it be in business and leadership, photography, cooking, acting, music, sports and more, Masterclass delivers a world class online learning experience. The classes that excited me the most were the ones on writing. So there's a session with actual Malcolm Gladwell, author of Blink and the Tipping point. He's done 24 classes on how to find, research and write stories that capture big ideas and it's totally inspiring. I love that you can turn your commute or workout into a classroom with audio mode so you can listen to a Masterclass lesson anytime, anywhere. Right now, our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual [e-mail] fail. That's 15% [e-mail] fail masterclass.com fail Jeanette McCurdy's novel Half His Age tells the story of a 17 year old girl called Waldo embarking on an affair with Mr. Corgi, her 40 year old creative writing teacher. It is an astonishing book, partly because of its empathetic refusal to judge its protagonists, but also because in her observation of adolescent female anger and insecurity, McCurdy takes Waldo on a journey through her discomfort to a place of powerful agency and self determination. In McCurdy's hands, rage transmutes into power. It's an impressive feat for a debut novelist and unsurprising that the book has been a hit on both sides of the Atlantic, becoming a Sunday Times number one bestseller in its first week of publication. But McCurdy did not start out as a writer. Growing up Mormon In Orange County, California, McCurdy was six when her mother decided her only daughter would become an actor. Soon she was supporting her mother and three brothers full time through work. It was a difficult and abusive upbringing, a story told with unflinching honesty in her 2022 memoir, I'm glad My Mom Died, which spent more than 90 weeks on the New York Times bestseller list. Writing, she says, has been such a profound source of identity for me. It's been the place where I have found myself. Jeanette McCurdy, welcome to how to Fail.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Thank you for having me. What a beautiful intro.

[Elizabeth Day]

I'm so honored to have you and thank you so much for the gift of your words. You have this rare ability to be courageous enough to tell the truth and to help readers see themselves and their experience on the page. So I want to start with that.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Well, it's so funny you say that, the sort of courage to tell the truth, because I feel that it is honestly something that people say a lot about my writing. And I've kind of been thinking about that recently where like 90% of my thoughts are things that you really shouldn't say out loud in any sort of social setting or capacity. And yet writing them down, they're then sort of hailed as like, so brave. Where if I just were to say the same things at a dinner, the forks would, you know, stop. Everyone would look at me and be like, okay, no, that's not what we say here. Yet, you know, in writing, it's sort of not only allowed, but really, really rewarded. And it's just. It's interesting to think about.

[Elizabeth Day]

It's so interesting. And I wonder if that truthfulness has felt like such a liberation for you. Because, I mean, as many women do, we've sort of been raised so many of us, to please others and to Be nice.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yes, 100%. Be accommodating at the expense of your own feelings. Make everybody else in the room feel okay, who cares how you're feeling? Just all you have to do is be there for everybody else, show up for everybody else, get them to feel the way that they need to feel. I'm really sick of that. I think it's time that women start speaking up for ourselves in any capacity. Not worrying about, you know, we're told, oh, don't be difficult, don't be too much, and, you know, you want to get ahead. So. But it's really actually counterproductive. And I think this messaging keeps us down. I think oftentimes a woman is perceived as difficult if the person around her can't meet her standards.

[Elizabeth Day]

Mm. What has been the most surprising thing for you about the reception to half his age?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

To be totally honest, the amazing critical response. I really, really. I don't wanna jinx it, but I thought there would be a lot of pushback, I guess, just because of the success of the mem. I thought there would be kind of a real, you know, kind of arms crossed, skepticism and kind of a like, okay, little girl, let's see what you got. Kind of snarky attitude. And that hasn't been the case at all. And it's. I stay away from reviews, but people send me nice stuff. So that's. That's been, you know, seeing reviews in the New York Times, in the Atlantic and, you know, Sunday Times and all these places where it's really my work is being respected and appreciated has been, like, beyond meaningful to me. I wanna sit here and go, oh, reviews don't matter. And, you know, and I definitely don't write from that. I'm never writing going, what are the reviews gonna say? That would be disastrous. But just to feel that the work is understood is ultimately meaningful. It does mean something to me. I am getting those articles framed like, that's the reality.

[Elizabeth Day]

You really deserve it. There's no seamless link to this next question, but you grew up Mormon.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Go for it.

[Elizabeth Day]

Great. I want to talk about Morm, because the Brits have a long standing fascination with Mormonism, really. But we don't really get it.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Okay. I saw that the play is going here.

[Elizabeth Day]

The play is going. Yeah. Book of Mormon has been a huge hit because we want to understand more. And I feel like Mormonism is having such a cultural moment in the most unexpected way. Like the real secret lives of Mormon wives.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yes, I've heard about this. I haven't seen it, but is this. So this is something. It's here as well. Okay, okay.

[Elizabeth Day]

That's here as well.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

It started on TikTok or something or.

[Elizabeth Day]

Exactly. It started as mom talk because there was a swingers scandal involved. These Mormon women who were all in their early 20s, but, like, married with kids.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Mormons have really changed. If there's, like, swingers happening, that is like quite the opposite of what the premise is. But.

[Elizabeth Day]

But can I ask you about Mormonism and whether you think that has shaped in any way your creative output?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Wow, what a. What a deep question. I. I think it is shaped. Certainly. It is. It is. It is really kind of shaped who I am or the way that I think about things. And by that I mean guilt. You know, there's a lot of sort of growing up in that religion. There's a lot of inherent guilt to the culture, sexual guilt, and just kind of almost a guilt for existing. I think a lot of those people, pleasing tendencies, specifically as a woman, really can be traced back to that, though. I think we've all kind of been told that in one way or another, Mormon or not, or wherever we've grown up. It's just we're told to be accommodating to others in that culture. Growing up, it was really, you know, these are the expectations of a woman, and it's that you stay home, you have kids, you do the dishes, you make your husband dinner, and you have it on the table at six, and you smile while you're doing it, and you're grateful that that's what you are able to do, what you are allowed to do. And if that's what somebody wants to do, amazing. That is beautiful. But if it's not what you want to do, and you're just being constantly told that that's what you've got to do, it's really, really frustrating. But you're not allowed to be frustrated. You know, you gotta be. As a Mormon, you've really got to be happy and grateful and just show up sort of with a smile on your face and find the positive in everything. And there's not always a positive in everything, you know, And I think finding reality is far more important and far more beneficial. And then you can find the positive from there, but just kind of living in a world where you're pretending everything's fine when some things really are not. I think it's a way to just kind of keep a person down. And I say this actually with a certain tenderness for the religion because it did feel like a safe environment for me. Now I see it as completely not that. But growing up, you know, in a household with so much chaos, there was something quite peaceful about just being in a pleasant, clean space. And I really appreciated that. And I did appreciate the sense of community. I did appreciate the morals, though. Of course, now I see there's. There's such a kind of complexity there, because how can you have certain morals while you're doing things that are so kind of harmful to certain groups? And that makes zero sense. But it certainly shaped who I am and how I think. But I don't think it has shaped my sort of creative output other than just. I mean, there's a character in half his age who's Mormon.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

That's really.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yeah.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I couldn't help but do a little nod.

[Elizabeth Day]

Do you still carry the guilt?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Let me think. Let me check in with my body. I think in some instances. And, like, I don't really have an example off the top of my mind, but certainly not, you know, there's not sexual guilt. And, you know, sex is really a theme that comes up in this. In this book a lot. And writing sex in an honest way was so important to me. Maybe I'm. You know, maybe there's some element of that, that. That. That early sexual guilt that sort of led to this path, but there's no kind of direct line that I can see. And then generally, I would say I don't. I don't have a lot of guilt. I think I live in a way that I have values that I try to make my choices off of. I try to let those values guide my life. But beyond that, if I'm doing that, then I don't think there's really much room for guilt.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes. My best friend is a therapist, and she always says that guilt is a signal that you've done something wrong. So if you haven't done something wrong, there's no need to feel guilty. Yes. Yeah.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I'm curious if she. There's. There's something I heard from a therapist which is if. If you feel resentment, it's time to set a boundary.

[Elizabeth Day]

Oh, that's so good.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Isn't that beautiful? Isn't that so good?

[Elizabeth Day]

That's so good. And can I just say how Much. I love hearing you answer questions.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Oh, thank you.

[Elizabeth Day]

We were talking.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I was like. I was so long wounded with a Mormon thing, I'm already judging it.

[Elizabeth Day]

Neither is guilt. Yes. Let me relieve you from the need to judge. That was an incredible answer and so nuanced. And we were talking before we started recording about how, as writers, we feel that it especially better to. Or easier to express ourselves on the page because we can redraft. But when we're in the moment and talking, there's that inner critic constantly saying, you could have said that better.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I hate 90% of what I say. Literally, after I leave here, I will go, why did I say that? Was too. I could have said that differently. I wish I would have done that. And it's exhausting. And I find writing so freeing in a way, because you can just get it right. You can say it the way that you want to say it. You can revise it until it's exactly how you want it to be said. And that's not the case with. With anything else.

[Elizabeth Day]

I also just want to acknowledge that in talking about your work, you are often asked by interviewers like me to trawl over really difficult trauma. And I just wanted to sort of say that because I know that it doesn't come without a cost. And I don't want you to feel that any of your experiences are being cheapened here. And I want you to feel held.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I'm quite moved by you saying that.

[Elizabeth Day]

Oh. Oh, Jeanette. Well, I'm moved by your response. And I just want you to know that I see you and it's important. No, please take your time.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Honestly, I really appreciate you saying that.

[Elizabeth Day]

You look so pretty when you cry. Is that an inappropriate thing to say? You really do.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

That is so kind. And it is so felt. It is so felt from you. The generosity and the depth and insightfulness that you ask with is. It's not always the case. And I understand that this is a part of the job. And, you know, I really want my. My. I care about my work. I put my heart and soul into, you know, into half his age for years. And this is a part of the job. And I want. And I'm grateful to have a platform where I'm able to do this, you know, these various press interviews and things, to be able to have a platform for the book. I want people to read it. I care about people reading. And I think it's really, you know, it's. It's worth their time. And I don't think. I think, you know, People really ought to value their time most of all. And I do think this is a book worth their time. But it can be challenging when, you know, when things can get personal or when people will ask questions about the memoir, which I wrote years ago. And it's something I'm so proud of. But ultimately, it's like to sometimes be kind of touted out and just be like, so that abusive mom of yours. It's like, can we just. Not for a second. And so I really appreciate you saying that.

[Elizabeth Day]

Of course. Let's get onto your failures. Because your first one is about the novel.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Day]

Because you were writing a different novel and this is your first failure is that you did finish it. So tell us about that novel that you didn't finish.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I was. And I think this is such a key kind of element of the creative process, and I hope it's useful for somebody, for any creative out there. But I was working on another novel that I really, really liked. I was about six months in, pretty deep in. I had had, you know, multiple drafts at this point, and was. Was really in the thick of it. And I think this thing happens with creative ideas where initially, you tell me if you feel this way, if you agree. Right. Initially. They're so attractive. Yeah. They're so sexy.

[Elizabeth Day]

Such a good way of expressing it.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yeah. It's the honeymoon phase. Yeah. You're dating, you're having sex a lot. Like, it's great. And then it becomes work. Inevitably becomes work, and the honeymoon phase kind of fades. And it's like, okay, now we're really in the thick. We got our pants pulled up and we're in there. And then every other idea you have ever had starts to look real hot. And you think, if I could just not be in this. If I could just date that other one for a little bit. It'd be so nice. Or they're so beautiful. If I could just. And so that's what happened here, where I was six months into this other process, and I was so deep in the project, and half his age was just really pushing itself up on me. And it was so intense that it got to the point where it was undeniable. And I said, okay, I will give half his age a week. I will. Because I can't stop thinking about it. I will put the brakes on this other idea for a week. I'll work on half his age. I figured I would get it out of my system and then return to the other one, sort of going, oh, I'm so grateful to be in this long Term relationship and we are meant to be together. And that is not what happened at all. And 30 days later I had a first draft of half his age. I just physically could not return to the other one. I'm very much a bodily writer and so, I mean, clearly I'm emotional and so I kind of have to just work with it. I can't work against it, it doesn't work for my life. I've learned. So I had to go, okay, the excitement's in. Half his age and we're get this out. I got the first draft out and then I went back into the second and third, you know, every subsequent draft from there and now, you know, nearly whatever, 20 drafts and two years later. This is clearly the one that was meant to be because it's the one

[Elizabeth Day]

that is so fascinating. So much I want to ask you about that. That idea of feeling it in your body and having learned that you have to pay attention to that instinct is so powerful. Do you think that part of the reason you couldn't ignore this is because you'd spent so many years in a kind of control dynamic where you weren't able to follow your instincts?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Oh my God. The only person who's put that, that is so brilliantly said, such a, such a wow, insightful connection. Yes, I think that's exactly it. I, you know, I had eating disorders from age 11 through my early kind of 20s, and there was so much body denial. And I really, you know, it's what I had to do for the time. It's an important part of recovery is really accepting like, you know, you did what you had to do and that's what it was for me. But it is so sad to me looking back on it, the amount of it was a real betrayal to my own body and a real denial because of feeling things so intensely and knowing if I would have literally come into contact with any of my emotions, all they would have been telling me would be to get out of all the situations I was in. And you can't do that when you're 14. So, you know, thank God I had some sort of defense mechanism, some sort of coping mechanism, it might sound strange to say, given that it was such an unhealthy one, but it really was important to getting me through kind of that phase. It was all that I had. But there was so much body betrayal. And now, you know, as a 33 year old woman who is in touch with her emotions, painfully and like so in touch with her emotions, it is so clear to me that there Is nothing more powerful than a woman's intuition. I believe that about all of us. I believe our bodies have inherent knowledge that if we try to kind of analyze our way. Oh, and we can, maybe. If we can. No, our bodies know. And denying our bodies is nothing but a disservice to our. To a better life path for ourselves. If we could just accept our emotions, allow our emotions, let them inform our decisions, I think 100% of the time puts our lives on a better path. And that's definitely something that I continue to kind of relearn over and over through the years.

[Elizabeth Day]

Wow. That is exactly what I believe. Thank you so much for putting it into words when this idea kept pushing itself against you. Does that work, that phrase? Yes, I think it does, yeah.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

It's like, it has to be. It had to be birthed. Like, it was so in my body, you know, it was just. It's time.

[Elizabeth Day]

You had an age gap relationship when you were 18?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Day]

When you first had the idea, did you think, is this another memoir? Was there ever a point where you thought, am I writing myself here?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

No, there was never. Never a point or a question in my mind about that. Because so much of kind of the book, the novel, is told entirely through the point of view of the protagonist, Waldo. And really, her voice was feeling very clear to me in who she is and what she wants and how she operates. And it is, you know, she's entirely her own character, and the novel is entirely its own sort of story. And I'm aware people will project me onto it because I just know that's gonna happen. I do think it would be a misread if people do that, but I get that that's kind of part of it. Although I will say, to your point of being in an early, you know, an age gap relationship when I was 18, I do find it really important that there's some sort of significant personal connection to whatever it is that I write, especially fiction, I would say. I think it's so important. There's something deep in my bones that I really, really understand about kind of the core of the subject matter that I trust myself to tell that story. I trust myself to carry that kind of story. And then also, it's just so much more fun to be able to build out and expand and get into various characters, points of view. And it's quite liberating to not be limited by life experience.

[Elizabeth Day]

And I read somewhere that you, in a later draft, had included more from Mr. Corgi's perspective, like, not in his Words. But you were kinder to him in later drafts, even though he comes across brilliantly, but ultimately is this kind of pathetic figure. It's Waldo who has the power by the end of it. There's this one scene, it's just so telling where he's left his marriage and he's able to blu tack up his poster of A Clockwork Orange and there's one corner of it that just keeps flapping down and Waldo sees it and it's such a metaphor for just how his life is just sort of flapping down. Yeah, but what was that like for you? Sort of setting yourself that challenge of seeing, of not demonizing him.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I'm glad you mentioned this, cause I think it does go back to kind of the not being finger wagging or moralistic. In earlier drafts. He was a bit more mustache twirly, villain, a bit more on the nose. And I would read those drafts back and feel I could feel myself kind of writing defensive, both wanting to defend Waldo, protect Waldo, rather protect Waldo, and then also I think wanting to defend myself. This is how I feel about this. This is a bad situation. This is how I, the writer, feel about this. Right. And I could feel myself kind of intervening. And it did not read well. You know, it didn't read well. He wasn't believable, he wasn't grounded. Ultimately, I do believe that people are trying their best and failing miserably. Everybody, I think that is just a part of life. It's who we are. It's who I am. It's who everybody I believe is. And I also think nobody ever thinks they're the bad guy. So I know we're gonna be reading this and we're gonna be most of us, if not all, if not 100% of us will be viewing Corgi a certain way and putting, placing that judgment on him. But he doesn't feel that about himself. He believes he is making the best decision that he can at any moment and that he has the best of intentions. And so I wanted that to kind of come through. And so I really had with the point of view of what is it like to be a 40 year old man who has really not fulfilled any of the things that he thought, hoped or expected that he would. And I did feel for him, as uncomfortable as that is to say, I do think it was important to writing him believably and ultimately to believing Waldo. Because she has to be a reliable narrator. The moment we discredit her as a narrator is the moment we're off knowing that we're all older than her. We're reading this thing from somebody 10, 20 years younger than us. You know, how do we make sure that we don't discredit her? And if she's painting him a certain way, we're going, well, then why did you fall for him in the first place? And it was so important to really make sure that Waldo was reliable.

[Elizabeth Day]

That's such a great point. How much, if at all, did that process help you recategorize or reanalyse your own age gap relationship?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Oh, I'm thinking now. I'm like, I don't even know if I was. I think I was so kind of in the thick of it that I wasn't really processing my own. I think ultimately some processing did wind up happening. Some closure was kind of found through the writing of it, but I wasn't really putting my own experience on it or kind of reflecting back to me. That might have been distracting or limiting. You know, in a way, maybe I would have put more judgment on it or something. I don't know. I'm working this out in real time here. But it really did feel like I was operating from. You know, I believe Mr. Corgi is a. He really feels real to me. Waldo feels so, so real to me. And so I was kind of just working out the dynamics through who these people are.

[Elizabeth Day]

The other relationship that I found so compelling in this novel is the relationship between Waldo and her mother. I think you paint that really beautifully. Why was that important for you to explore?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I think family dysfunction or complicated family dynamics are something that I will always explore. I just wouldn't know how to write, you know, clean, kind of healthy family dynamics. Like, I would have. Not the first idea. Yeah. I'm literally, like, trying to think of what a line would be with a healthy. Here's your dinner, sweetheart. Have a great night. How was school? Like, I'm bored. Yeah, I'm bored. Yeah. I think there's something sort of so much more juicy and interesting. And it's also just. It's what I know, and I think it is. Writing is oftentimes a way for me to kind of find closure and work through things that I don't have the answers to myself, sit with those uncomfortable aspects of families. And so I think that's just something I'll always write.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yeah.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I'm. So if I can ask, why are you so interested in failure? I'm really curious.

[Elizabeth Day]

Oh, what a lovely question. I think the short answer is that I think failure has stripped me of my Old certainties about how I thought life was going to be and introduced me to the truth of who I really am.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Wow.

[Elizabeth Day]

And what I mean by that is, like, so much of life is driven by ego and also by social conditioning. What we've inherited from our parents, what we've inherited from society or culture or the amount of rom coms we've watched. And so I grew up with this very sort of conventionality of what my life might be like. And it did not go according to that plan by some metric. And so I found myself feeling like such a failure at the age of 39. I'd gone through a divorce. I tried and failed to have children. And online at that stage, it felt like everyone had perfect lives on Instagram. And so I was interested in the disconnect. Cause it also made me feel alienated.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Wow. Wow.

[Elizabeth Day]

And since then, I've kind of become obsessed with it. I've learned so much through it, through talking to people like you, who are so brilliant and wise and smart. I learn every time I have a conversation like this.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Wow. So it's sort of a switch at about 39 and just kind of life events. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

That's why I think you're so ahead of your time. Like, you're 33. You are way ahead of where I was. I mean, thank goodness.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Oh, I don't know about that. That's why it makes so much sense. And I really. I completely agree. I love sort of the premise of the podcast. I do think that you know, the universe, whatever you want to identify it as, does know more than we do. And I think there are so many things, and I'm so sort of this. I'll set my sights on some. I'll set my eyes on one thing, and I'll just go, that's what it has to be. And it needs to be this. And I. And I think I know best. And I never do. Literally, I can treat anything in my life where I've thought, this is what's gonna be best for me. Life goes actually. No. And it shows me what is gonna be best for me.

[Elizabeth Day]

Absolutely. So moved by that. You've totally nailed it. And my not having the baby that I thought I always wanted has actually been, I think, the uncovering of my life purpose, part of it. I now strongly feel that part of my purpose is to speak for those people who don't and can't. Yeah. Yeah.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Day]

So things like that are just so meaningful and profound.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yes. You never really know why things are happening until after they've happened.

[Elizabeth Day]

So true. The thing that you do know is that you can have more faith that you're going to survive it because of how much you've survived already.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yes, yes. You go, oh, I can navigate this. Oh, you know what? I'm more adaptable. I'm more. This word can be kind of cringey or I find it kind of cringey. But resilient.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Because I always think like, well, I'd rather not have to be fucking. Can I say fuck A.

[Elizabeth Day]

Please swear. I love sorrow.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Okay. Yeah, I'd rather not have to be resilient. Wouldn't it be great? Or like, oh, you know, challenges build character. I could afford less character. Like, I don't need to be resilient. I can afford less character. Let's go, baby. But, you know, I guess these are. These just happen, you know.

[Elizabeth Day]

Jennette McCurdy could afford less character is the best. It's just the best line. You know those times late at night when you're scrolling and you see something online that you've been looking for and you just need to buy it right there? And then you click on the link, you add it to cart before hitting checkout. But then that sinking feeling as you realize you don't have your card anywhere near and don't want to get out of bed. But that's when you see it. That purple pay button that has all of your information saved, making checking out as simple as a quick tap of your screen. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and has so many benefits. You can set up your own design studio, use Shopify's AI tools that write product descriptions and even enhance advance your product photography. You can get the word out like you have a marketing team behind you. Easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling. See fewer carts go abandoned and more sales go. Sign up for your 1 pound per month trial today at shopify.co.uk fail. Go to shopify.co.uk fail.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

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[Elizabeth Day]

It's good to be white.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Hey, new girl.

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[Jeanette McCurdy]

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[Elizabeth Day]

seed has to die.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

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[Elizabeth Day]

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[Jeanette McCurdy]

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[Elizabeth Day]

Then add an extra pack to your subscription for just $1. No overpay saying no over committing. Just tournaments so crazy they'd be crazy to miss. Visit sling.com to learn more.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Sling lets you do that.

[Elizabeth Day]

Let's get on to your second failure. And I want to preface this by saying how grateful I am that you are going to talk about it. I know it will speak to so many people. And it's that early on in your eating disorder recovery, you had lots of, as you put it in, quotation marks, slips, or failures. Can we go back to the genesis of your disordered eating? Yes, and the first memory you have of it.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I woke up when I was, I think I was 11 years old and I'd had a lump in my breast. And I thought, oh, no. My mother had cancer when I was 2 years old. She, you know, it eventually recurred and she passed away when I was 21, but she had breast cancer when I was 2. And so I was always kind of hyper, hyper, hyper aware of. Breast cancer is a scary, looming thing. You know, it's hereditary. I could get it at some point. So I'm 11. I feel a lump in my breast. I think I've got breast cancer. I'm dying. Of course it was just breast tissue. It was just a little bit of breast tissue developing. And my mom kind of told me that I was, oh, you're getting boobs. And it was a very hysterical, intense reaction. She really, you know, had a lot of fear around me growing up. She didn't want that to happen, I think for a number of reasons. That's its own podcast, but so she taught me calorie restriction and she really struggled herself. I didn't know this at the time, of course. I just thought my mom had very specific eating habits, which included not eating. Most of the time, she'd just have a tea with nothing in it for breakfast every day. Yeah, she had these sort of corks around her eating that she then really taught to me. And it was as gross as it is to say it was a bonding opportunity for us. I perceived it as a bonding opportunity for me. It was like, like a fun sequence in the Parent Trap where they're, like doing hand jives, but we're like counting calories together. And it just seemed like this little secret that we have that nobody else knows about. And we do it in private. And how. Great, because that makes us even closer when we're best friends and we're so enmeshed and codependent. And so I learned, you know, how to calorie, restrict and was really, really intensely restricting my calories and very quickly developed anorexia and was hyper, hyper monitoring everything that went into my. My body until eventually I was at, you know, a doctor. And, you know, the. I. The doctor pulled my mother out of the room and said that she was, you know, concerned that I. I may have anorexia. It's the first time I've heard this word. And I thought, literally, my first thought was like, oh, that sounds like a dinosaur, like anorexia. But I could tell by the tone of her voice and how she was speaking with my mom that something was wrong. Cause I think, you know, as kids, we're so perceptive, and we pick up on these emotional cues better than many adults because by adulthood, we've stifled and suppressed and we're blocking. We're just avoiding at all costs so many times, so much of the time. But as kids, we're just hyper in tune with these cues. So I knew something's wrong, but I also couldn't go near the reality of what that wrong thing was, because my mom would never do that. And I needed my mom on that pedestal to survive. So it took a long, long time before I was able to kind of recognize that this is something that I recognized, you know, after my mother pass 21, 22. This is not something at 11. I'm like, well, got anorexia. You know, I didn't. I wasn't piecing it together.

[Elizabeth Day]

I'm so sorry that you went through that. And this is not a podcast about your excellent memoir, which, by the way, I listened to on audio. Oh, that was a whole experience. And you. You did an incredible job of narrating it. But that memoir opens with you at your mother's bedside as she's dying, saying, I've reached my goal weight. Because you felt like that was the thing that would most excite her and keep her alive.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Believe that. With all my heart. Yeah. And it's also funny. It's also darkly common, and it's hilarious.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I'm like, Mommy, I'm almost 86. But whatever it was, pounds.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yeah. So your mother died, and then you felt able to explore recovery. How did that happen?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I think because it had to. You know, it got to the point where I had kind of hit a rock bottom. I had lost a tooth from at this point, the anorexia had morphed into bulimia. So, yeah, from. From 11 until 23. And it was really, really. That was incredibly intense and. And complicated because people don't really talk about this, but sort of bulimia to. To any person with an eating disorder feels like a failure off the bat. That, like, you're. You've failed. You're never aiming for bulimia. You were aiming for anorexia. You failed at anorexia. You landed at bulimia. So you're constantly kind of just sitting in this cycle of shame. And there can be, you know, I say this with caution. This is. This is. There's truly nothing worse than an eating disorder. And I believe it is such a colossal waste of time and often happens to really smart people who have so many better things they could be doing with their time. So I say it with this caveat, but there could be a power to anorexia. There could be a real sense of, you know, accomplishment to it that was, of course, grotesque and deeply disturbed. But bulimia, there was none of that. It is just. You are mired in shame. You are walking around feeling like everything you do is just. You are a loser, a failure. It feels awful. And I think I could just. I couldn't tolerate that anymore. I lost a tooth from bulimia. This was on a flight to do a really intense press trip, and a number of things had kind of collided at once, and I think it was just like, okay, I have to deal. I can't avoid this anymore. I have to deal with it. It's body finally. Finally was just saying, I can't have you betray me anymore. Hey, you're gonna have to listen. I mean, thank God for my body. It finally said, we're done. We're done.

[Elizabeth Day]

Can I ask you what I hope doesn't sound like an ignorant question?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Sure.

[Elizabeth Day]

When you were in the grip of your eating disorders, did you feel physically weak?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yeah. Exhausted. I'd also be sort of, you know, during. During the bulimia phase. It was, you know, I'd run 13 miles multiple days a week. And so it was constantly kind of in this state of exhaustion, which I think was helpful in avoiding emotion because there was no time, there was no space to kind of face anything. I'd feel the anxiety build up and then a purge, and then I'd feel kind of a relief, and I'd feel so tired that I. I'd fall asleep, you know, and this would be. I mean, throughout. I would purge many times a day. This Is, you know, but there was just. I was operating from such a place of phenomenal exhaustion that there was no time to go, oh, wow, I really don't like much of my life and how do I put it on a path that I do like. And, you know, there was no space to consider anything else because it was just perpetuating the cycle, the addiction.

[Elizabeth Day]

Wow. Thank you for explaining it like that.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

So what was the first step in your recovery? Was it therapy, or was it a decision that you made internally?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

It was a therapist that wound up this. That did not kind of work out with that therapist, which I also think is key, is gonna find the right person. But then I did find the right person. I was on a shoot in Toronto and I found an amazing therapist who did a blend of dialectical behavioral therapy and schema therapy, or schema based therapy. I don't know. Know the exact name. And that worked really effectively for me. It's very pen and paper. You're very much, you know, a scientist experimenting with your life and just getting it all out on the page in terms of, like, there's a lot of different methods and homework every day that you're doing. And that. That was transformative for me. I don't know if I would have recovered if I hadn't had those forms of therapy. And I also, unfortunately, don't think they would work for everyone. But I think if you have a personality type similar to mine, that's the way to go. I think that therapist and those forms of therapy were transformative.

[Elizabeth Day]

Was this the therapist who asked you to consider what good your eating disorder was doing for you?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yes, that's exactly it.

[Elizabeth Day]

I found that fascinating, isn't it, so

[Jeanette McCurdy]

intriguing very early on in recovery, because I'm sitting there assuming, okay, or I've hated sort of my body for so long and I've hated it. Just there's so much. There's so much complexity there. How do I then turn this eating disorder into the villain so I can get over it? That's what I thought would be the case. Instead, he's saying, maybe the first session, you know, what value does your eating disorder bring you? And I'm sitting there going, I'm paying you good money to get over this. I don't want to know what value it brings me. Like, help me get over it. And he's saying, well, it's actually very, very important that you find the value, because we need to find something of equal or greater value to bring in, because there will be a void. There is going to be a void in your life when this goes away. And it is going to be, you're going to need something to fill it. And it was fascinating to sit there and go, okay, what value has it offered me? And to piece that together and to really, I mentioned earlier sort of appreciating it and that was a key part of recovery.

[Elizabeth Day]

Is it appropriate to ask you what that was?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Let's see if I can remember. Well, you know, I sort of touched on this, but I didn't have space for my emotional experience, which I think was too much for me to carry at that time. I don't think I was at a place where, you know, certainly at 11, 12, 13, if I'm going to, if I accept the reality, okay, my mom taught me an eating disorder. My mom's teaching me that is like, honey, you gotta leave. Where to? Where, where do you go at 11? So it was kind of a, it was a protection. I think it was protection from the weight of fame, from the confusion of having an identity that was not my own. That was so public facing and feeling like my own identity was faced by no one. I mean, no, no parent, no adult figure, no, there was, there was no one. I think that's while anecdotal, I think it's very common for people who grow up in the spotlight where it's just, you are a product, you are a good, and you are viewed as that. You know, even if people are well intentioned, it's just really, really, it's tricky for people to separate fame from a person. Like, it's, it's tough.

[Elizabeth Day]

I'm very moved by that. This failure, quote unquote, specifically addresses your slip ups in recovery. And I think that it's very important for people to know this, that it's not linear. Recovery, authentic recovery can never be linear. So tell us a little bit about those slip ups and what they taught you.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

So this is another kind of aspect. Early on in recovery, therapist had said, hey, give me a pamphlet and told me the importance of not letting slips become sleep slides. He said, this is not going to be, you know, one stop shop. You say you're, you're ready to recover and then that's all that it takes is just conviction and determination and a strong, you're good discipline. Discipline, yeah, yeah. Especially you know, to a person with an eating disorder. Like there is that discipline is so much a part of kind of the dysfunction of it that to assume that discipline is all you need and then to have a slip up, it's so common Also, black and white thinking is really common for people who experience disordered eating. It's so common for that person to go, oh, I've had a slip. I'm a failure. It's all gone to waste. Okay, I'm off the wagon, so I might as well just have another slip and another and another, because now I'm a failure. So this is how I identify. So I'm a failure. So I'm a failure.

[Elizabeth Day]

So.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

And you're just, again, perpetuating that cycle, and you're stuck in it and just kind of mired in it. And he emphasized the importance of. Of not letting slips become slides. So when you have a slip, you sit with your. You sit with yourself and you go, what can I learn from this? If you have a slip, a failure, you go, what is this telling me so that I can prevent it from happening again? How, What. What is all the information that I can glean from this? This is actually useful for me. That truly, yeah, change changed my life. Um, there were slips. There were many slips. But being able to go, I don't have to let this become a slide every single time. What can I glean from this? I will take my slip. I would literally sit and I'd say, okay, I had four slips this week. Let's get to the bottom of them. And we would explore all of those slips in depth. And, you know, what were the vulnerability factors surrounding those slips and why did this happen when. And it was such a useful part of the process.

[Elizabeth Day]

All failure is data acquisition, I often say, and that's the perfect example of it.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Brilliant. New Year, new me.

[Elizabeth Day]

Cute. But how about New Year, new money?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

With Experian, you can actually take control of your finances, Check your FICO score, find ways to save and get matched with credit card offers, giving you time to power through those New Year's goals. You know you're going to crush.

[Elizabeth Day]

Start the year off right.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Download the Experian App based on FICO Score 8 model offers an approval not guaranteed. Eligibility requirements and terms apply subject to credit check, which may impact your credit scores. Offers not available in all states. See experian.com for details. Experian. I'm Craig Melvin. Cheers.

[Elizabeth Day]

Cheers.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Cheers. I've always been a glass half full kind of guy, and now I'm talking to some people who look at the

[Elizabeth Day]

world that way, too. Some really fascinating folks who share their

[Jeanette McCurdy]

defining moments, their triumphs, their challenges. Their stories are funny and quite candid. So I hope you'll join me each week. And who knows, you are you Might just come away with your own Glass Half Full.

[Elizabeth Day]

Search Glass Half Full with Craig Melton From Today on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Infamous is the gossip show. That's smart. We talk about Tyra Banks and bringing down Top Model. We talk about Jenna Jameson and how she dominated the 90s.

[Elizabeth Day]

You know, she's horny and she's in charge.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

She just was very smart about marketing herself. We. We talk about celebrities who maybe shouldn't be celebrities, like the Beckham guy. Brooklyn is their first kid. He's had a little bit of the Nepo baby curse. We investigate orgasm cults.

[Elizabeth Day]

A woman's erotic power can unlock many other powers in her life.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

And of course, we discuss people who have gotten into lots of trouble. My name is Molly McLaughlin. I am one of Jen Shaw's many victims. She was defrauding the elderly, and her tagline was, the only thing I'm guilty

[Elizabeth Day]

of is being shamazing.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Listen to Infamous, the gossip show. That's smart. The show's called Infamous.

[Elizabeth Day]

How do you feel today? You are in alignment with your body.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Checking in with my body. It's sort of buzzing right now. It feels pleasant. It feels safe. That's great. Feels really safe. I notice, you know, if I feel constricted or if I feel my body feels a no.

[Elizabeth Day]

Oof.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

And so much of my life, going back to kind of the accommodating and the people pleasing and all of that was about suppressing my no. And how can I. Oop.

[Elizabeth Day]

I feel it.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I feel the rage. I feel it in my face. This is how I'm in touch with my body. I started listening to it and then it's like. Like, it's tricky when you start telling your bot. When you start really listening to it, it goes, okay, here you go. And it like throws you so much and you go, oh, can I handle this? Yes. And we can. You know, we can, but it's. But it doesn't mean it's not intense. And so, you know, thinking back to those. Those times when it would be so much about, you know, how can I turn my no into somebody else? It was more important to make my no into anybody else's. Yes. Didn't even matter if I respect that person, liked that person. It was just about accommodating them and being more convenient for them. And now I listen to my nose.

[Elizabeth Day]

That is so fucking incredible. I feel this interview has just. It's so serendipitous. Like, everything that you are saying is feeding directly into my soul.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Oh, my God. I'M so glad to hear it. Oh, my God.

[Elizabeth Day]

I. Thank you. I feel like not only do we speak the same language, you elevate the language that I try to speak.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Oh, my God.

[Elizabeth Day]

Oh, my God.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Is there a no coming to mind? Whether or not you want to share it, but is there something coming to mind? Okay. Okay, great.

[Elizabeth Day]

Wow. For years, I didn't have a voice. I thought I did, but it wasn't my voice. And I was in a very dysfunctional, emotionally abusive, romantic relationship. And I used to get tonsillitis a lot. And it was only afterwards that I made the connection that I was like, oh, that's because I literally kept losing my voice. And. And recently, I was lucky enough to go Bear with me. To this Swiss wellness clinic.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Okay, I'm in.

[Elizabeth Day]

And this woman, she was a bioenergetic medical expert. I don't know what that means, but she was amazing. And I walked into her room and she said, oh, you're very tight here. And she, like, clutched her own neck. She's like, you're so tight here. You're breathing from your chest. You're not breathing properly. And she basically identified something that I'd lived with all of my life without knowing, which is that I wasn't sufficiently in my body. I wasn't fueling my body with enough air in order to be able to speak. She said, you actually have a very deep voice. And she got me to do these rounds of breathing and my voice, literally, I became like Old Man River. I was like. But it felt so rooted.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Embodied. Yes.

[Elizabeth Day]

Embodied as the word yes. And I was like, this is my voice. And I feel so at one with the earth.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Wow.

[Elizabeth Day]

It was an extraordinary revelation.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Wow. So was your voice quite different before? Was it sort of like.

[Elizabeth Day]

Well, I feel like it's got deeper. Maybe Hannah the producer can tell me what. But it just felt trapped in my chest. It was like I was scared, literally scared of going deeper.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

It's like coming from a sturdier kind of place.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Wow. Wow.

[Elizabeth Day]

And like you, although we have different life paths, I was just an extreme people pleaser, and it meant that I lost all connection with my own desires, and I ended up saying yes to really unhealthy things. And, spoiler alert, that ended in divorce and, like, all of that sort of stuff. And now I'm remarried to someone who I really feel able to communicate with, and I haven't had tonsillitis touchwood since.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Wow. Wow. It's incredible what our bodies tell us. Yes. Wow.

[Elizabeth Day]

And that piece around rage again, I Thought I was sad for so long. And then my best friend, the therapist was like, do you think you're sad or do you think it's an acceptable mask for what you're actually feeling?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Day]

Which was anger.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yes. Certain things are allowed, but heaven forbid a woman feel rage. There's always quote, hell hath not. What is it hell? What is it?

[Elizabeth Day]

Helth? No fury like a woman scorned.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yeah. It's like, yeah, damn fucking straight.

[Elizabeth Day]

I know ye.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yes. Watch out.

[Elizabeth Day]

Watch us. Exactly.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Instead it's just this thing that's like, oh, it can't be a scorned woman. No, we are scorned.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

We're angry.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes. Fucking right. Okay. Oh, Jeanette, this is the most amazing conversation of all time. Thank you. Thank you. Your final failure is relationships.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Day]

I can't wait to get into this because it's got such a happy ending. Spoiler alert. But failed relationships, what did they teach you?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Oh, my God. Well, at the time, you know, there's so much. I would have this kind of this feeling when I would be at the, on the cusp of a new relationship where it'd be this instant attraction and it was this all consuming. I have to be with that person now. Now, now, now. More, more, more. Please, please, please. And the relationships would really start out with a deep, deep intensity. There's also a real kind of certain kind of person I would, I would tend to fall for, but there was just so much dysfunction. So much dysfunction. Like an amount that's embarrassing to admit that I think. I actually think a lot of us experience this level of dysfunction. But I think again, we're kind of just tiptoeing around it and not really talking about it. But it was real chaos and real kind of shameful behavior. I think on both of our parts. Certainly on mine, I'll own mine. But I just had this feeling like something's not right. Ultimate. Like underneath I was just like, this is not how I want a relationship to look. This, this, this is too reminiscent. Not, you know, not where my parents relationship, it didn't go that far, but, but it went too far. And it didn't feel like what I wanted from a relationship even remotely. I wanted something healthy, I wanted something sturdy. I wanted something that felt really

[Elizabeth Day]

like

[Jeanette McCurdy]

we were both growing separately as individuals and together. And that was not the experience. I finally just started getting like, honestly, self help books. And I would just kind of see myself in all these relational patterns and, you know, taming your. I think there's one called like taming Your outer child and books on whatever codependency, all these different kind of potential issues in relationships. And I took that really seriously. And as I remember the relationship that I was in when I kind of started getting all these books, and I could really feel the fear in him as I was getting these books because it was like, oh, you could sense kind of a threat. Oh, what does this mean? And I completely understand that. I empathize with that. It can be, oh, this person's changing. Will I be safe? You know, but ultimately, I remember taking kind of I love a list and I had taken a list to him of like, here's the things that I wish were different. I wish it was this, this, this. I wish I were more this way. I wish we were more this way. And. And then he said, well, I kind of see a path too for the relationship. And he just like drew me a little figure. And it was like. It sounds really. It's. I was gonna say it sounds worse than it, than it was, but maybe that's not the case. It was literally like a doodle of, just like a rainbow. And it's like. And then, you know, we're there at the end with kind of a pot of gold. He's. He's sounding worse than he was. He was really, really, really. He was a deeply kind person. But right then it was just like that sinking feeling in, in my gut and I knew, okay, this has got, this is not gonna. This is not somebody who wants to do the work, who's willing to work with me. I'm not saying that a relationship has to be, from the get go, perfect roses and daisies, but I'm saying it has to be somebody who's willing to find a common, a common language and a common engine that will, through conflict, you have to be able to resolve conflict effectively as a couple or it's just not going to work. Because there is going to be conflict. And people say, there's people who I know who say, like, oh, we never had conflict. You're hiding, you're suppressing. You are.

[Elizabeth Day]

You are in denial.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

You are lying. And also there's this element of. Have you heard of walk away wife syndrome?

[Elizabeth Day]

No. Tell me more.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Okay. It's sort of this idea that you have cried so many tears throughout the course of the relationship that by the time you are ready to leave, you're wiped out. You're almost stone cold.

[Elizabeth Day]

Oh, my God.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Right?

[Elizabeth Day]

I was a walk away wife. Right.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I feel like it's so common for us women because we've Tried everything we can. We've said what we need. As many ways as we know how, as many times as we know how we have said it and said it and said it and said it. Then we feel needy and we feel like we're too much for saying, uh, can you. Can you can what if you just please. Or how about. And then you're trying to change yourself to be more accommodating for him. Him. Meanwhile, no changes are happening. I mean, not always the case, but a lot of the times. And then it gets to the point where it's okay, you know what? I'm so emotionally exhausted and depleted that I have literally nothing left to give. So I guess now I have to leave because I feel nothing for you anymore. I feel nothing. And that was the case for me. Every relationship that I left, it got to a point where there were no tears left, there was no pain left. It was just a very kind of almost stoic breakup that was confusing to them. Cause then they're going, wait, what? What's happened? And it's. What's happened the past year and a half has happened. Have you not been here? You were here too. It's been so painful. It's been so painful. And of course there are great moments as well. You wouldn't be in it. But there's so much pain. That's just brutal. And so I think those realities, the walk away wife syndrome and then that I need somebody who can kind of resolve conflict with me and be willing to be in the trenches with me, was transformative and also somebody who's compatible. Like, it's so basic and yet I think we overlook it and think that we can wedge ourselves in or maybe potentially get them to wedge into what we need. And it just doesn't. It's just, you gotta be similar in some key ways or it's not gonna work. I really.

[Elizabeth Day]

I believe that the walkaway wife syndrome has explained something to me that I really struggled with in myself. Because I have felt shame around the fact that I was able to leave. And you are so right to identify that numb. It wasn't a lack of feeling. It was having felt too much for too long.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yes, you're wiped out. Yes, you're exhausted.

[Elizabeth Day]

Let me ask you something else about therapy adjacent, which I think part of my journey has been parenting my inner child. I think part of the reason I'm not a parent in the conventional biological sense is potentially. Cause I needed to do that work before I was ready for the romantic relationship that I'm now in which is one of equals. Do you feel you went on that journey too?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

100%. Yeah. Inner child work was. Was key for me. Have you ever done the Artist's Way?

[Elizabeth Day]

I haven't, and I've got an inner resistance to it, and I'm not sure why.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Really.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes, I know. You've done it several times, haven't you?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Wait. Yes, I'm so. I've done it three times. I'm like. I'm embarrassed. The third time, I did it with a friend and she, like, stopped, you know, six weeks in or something, and she's like, I stopped. And I was like, me too. Because I was too embarrassed to say that I was doing it for a third time.

[Elizabeth Day]

I think it should. Do you have to get up and write three pages?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yes. Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

The thing is that my life already, I have so much writing and so much work in it. Not that it's Work would. It's so interesting. The resistance I have is interesting.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Fascinating.

[Elizabeth Day]

But that's another podcast episode, so I'm really curious.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

I hope to offline with you about that. But, yeah, the morning pages are very much just like stream of consciousness. The idea is if you can't even. Just don't even pause your pen, just kind of keep it flying, it can be complete. I took a sip of tea. Why am I writing this? I hate that I'm writing this. This is so boring. I. I have to write so much for work already. This is, you know, whatever. And you're just kind of getting the idea of being. You're getting out of your system. The things that will be rattling around all day anyway, so might as well get them out on the page. Ultimately, the way I view it is really a course in inner child healing.

[Elizabeth Day]

What can you tell us about your partner who you've been with for nine years?

[Jeanette McCurdy]

He's my best friend. I'll check in with my body. He's my best friend. I mentioned earlier sort of this instinct that I'd had with my. With previous partners. It doesn't even feel like the appropriate term, to be honest. But with people that I'd been with, where there was that instinct of, like, I have to be with him now, it was this urgency. I met him through a mutual friend, and I was instantly extremely attracted to him, but had a sense of calm in my body. There was zero urgency. This is from somebody who'd had a hijacked nervous system their whole life. Like, for there to not be urgency is odd. That's why I noticed it. No urgency. And this sense of this person is very significant to my life. I don't know how. I don't have to know how. I don't have to know when. That's fine. This person is significant. And then we were friends and we'd kind of hang out in group settings and then we'd actually lost touch for over a year. And then he called me out of the blue. I thought it was a butt dial because I hadn't heard from him in so long. I thought, that's so random. And then he called me a second time and I, um, I honestly can't remember whether I picked up when we spoke then or whether we reconnected later. But then we got coffee and we talked for like four hours and we've been together for nine years. Nine years. That's crazy.

[Elizabeth Day]

I'm so happy for you.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Thank you.

[Elizabeth Day]

It makes me feel calm when you talk about him. I'm lucky enough to have met him because he's actually here. He does have a very calm aura, doesn't he? Yes.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Yes. Really? He's a really sturdy person. He's that person for all of his. He's the person that every, every one of his friends goes to for. Like, I need advice. I need advice. Like, he's, he's everyone's sort of rock.

[Elizabeth Day]

Jeanette, I've adored every second of this conversation. Thank you so much. Thank you for trusting me and for opening up in your beautiful, eloquent, compassionate, heart led way. I don't for a second take it for granted and I am so grateful for the existence of you.

[Jeanette McCurdy]

Thank you. You too. You too. Two Good and Co coffee creamers are made with farm fresh cream, real milk and contain 3 grams of sugar per serving. That's 40% less than the 5 grams per serving in leading traditional coffee creamers for a rich, delicious experience. Whether you enjoy your coffee hot, cold, bold or frothy, two good coffee creamers

[Elizabeth Day]

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[Jeanette McCurdy]

Find them at your your local Kroger in the creamer aisle.

[Elizabeth Day]

Please do follow how to fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends this is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.