Jilly Cooper: On Failure, Love, and Literature

Summary

How To Fail With Elizabeth Day

Episode: Jilly Cooper: On Failure, Love, and Literature

Release Date: October 6, 2025
Guest: Dame Jilly Cooper
Host: Elizabeth Day

---

Episode Overview

In this heartfelt and humorous episode, Elizabeth Day is joined by Dame Jilly Cooper—legendary author, journalist, and beloved chronicler of British society. The conversation explores Cooper’s life through the lens of her failures, from her struggles with hoarding and infertility to self-image and her comical attempts at driving. The themes of resilience, joy, and honesty run throughout, with Cooper generously sharing both wisdom and wit. The episode is especially poignant, as Day notes Cooper's recent passing, and it stands as a celebration of a remarkable life and literary legacy.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jilly’s Early Mischief and the Start of Her Career

• Jilly was dubbed "the Unholy Terror" at school for her naughtiness, a quality that latterly served her well as a writer and journalist.
• Her professional break came when she regaled the Sunday Times Magazine editor with stories at a dinner party, leading to an immensely popular column and interviews with public figures ([03:13]).
• Cooper’s transition to novelist led to international success, especially with the Rutshire Chronicles (notably Riders, Rivals, and Polo).

2. On Class and British Society

• Cooper is as adept at dissecting class as she is at writing sex scenes.
  • "We were so broke we were going to have to sell our house in Fulham. And then I wrote this book Class... was there for 20 weeks and saved our house." (Jilly Cooper, [06:49])
• On whether class is still relevant: "Probably not much, but I still think people look up and down at people... It just tilts, goes on secretly." (Jilly Cooper, [07:18])

3. Responding to Literary Snobbery

• Her books were often dismissed as "bonkbusters", but Day challenges this, highlighting the literary depth and social commentary in Cooper’s work.
  • "Do you actually think you don't write literature or have you been made to feel that you don't?" (Elizabeth Day, [06:04])
  • "I don't know what literature is... When things become literature, is it time?" (Jilly Cooper, [06:09])

4. The Real-Life Inspirations Behind Her Characters

• Discusses how her most famous hero, Rupert Campbell-Black, was an amalgamation of several "gorgeous men" she knew, including Andrew Parker Bowles ([08:13]).
• Cooper confesses to being "unnaturally obsessed with beauty" ([09:50]).

5. Family Dynamics, Grief, and Her Mother’s Struggles

• Jilly opens up about her mother's depression and a suicide attempt:
  • "She hated moving house... Every time she moved house she had a bit of a nervous breakdown." (Jilly Cooper, [12:27])
  • On discovering her mother's attempt: "He said, 'mummy, you know, she's had to go into a home. She tried to commit suicide.'" (Jilly Cooper, [12:38])
• Cooper’s desire to make people happy seems rooted here ("Yeah, I like making people happy. I mean, I'm a picture behind their backs. But I do like making love." [13:04])

6. Failures and Resilience

Failure 1: Inability to Throw Anything Away (Hoarding)

• "I always make about 15 drafts of everything I write, and I keep them..." (Jilly Cooper, [13:36])
  • Shared story of losing a manuscript for Rivals on a London bus, having to rewrite it from scratch ([19:01]).

Failure 2: Infertility and Adoption

• "I was married and we made love a lot... and nothing happened." (Jilly Cooper, [23:29])
• Candidly discusses the pain, stigma, and personal acceptance around infertility, and the ultimate joy adoption brought her:
  • "I could never love any much as I love them. So I was incredibly lucky..." (Jilly Cooper, [24:22])
• Encourages listeners facing similar challenges to consider adoption: "I'd say go absolutely for it's been wonderful. It made me so happy..." (Jilly Cooper, [25:24])

Failure 3: Diets and Self-Image

• Though a celebrated beauty, Cooper shares lifelong body insecurities.
• "[When] I get a little bit thinner, I get smug." (Jilly Cooper, [27:56])
• The roots stem from hurtful comments in youth: "She just said I was ugly and fat. And that's clearly stuck with you. It did. It did." ([29:44])

Extra Failures

• Cooper also admits to failures with technology ("Oh, God. Awful...I don't use a laptop...I can't do any of that." [32:52]) and delayed driving proficiency ("Passed my [driving] test for the second time. Everybody fainted at home..." [35:37]).

7. On Friendship and Fame

• Friendship is central, but as a writer, she resists "droppers in" when in her creative flow ([36:38]).
• Reflects on fame: "In the old days everybody recognized. Now they don't anymore." (Jilly Cooper, [37:29])
• Discusses the changing nature of fandom and correspondence in the digital age: "The internet's different, don't you think?... they don't say who they are..." ([38:17]).

8. Reflections on Aging, Success, and Self-Acceptance

• Cooper, in her 80s, exudes gratitude for her family and life, expressing only some longing for her late husband, Leo:
  • "I'm very happy, but I mean, I miss Leo, but it's fine. I live in a lovely house and... my children very near..." ([30:39])
• On being honored with her damehood, she says:
  • "When I got the letter about being a dame, I mean, it arrived at home and I opened it and I thought, oh, somebody's fooling around." ([38:48])

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "I'm sort of frivolous... I don't write literature, but I hope my books have given people joy." – Jilly Cooper ([04:46])
• "I love beautiful people. I'm unnaturally obsessed with beauty, I think." – Jilly Cooper ([09:50])
• "The good marriage was kept alive by creaking bedsprings, more from laughter than from sex." – Jilly Cooper ([13:15])
• "I had this fantasy about some bus conductor writing the novel of the century." – Jilly Cooper, on losing her manuscript ([19:08])
• "You dust yourself off and carry on. Would that be fair?" – Elizabeth Day ([20:39])
• "I'd say go absolutely for it... It made me so happy." – Jilly Cooper, on adoption ([25:24])
• "I'm hopeless [at technology]... but Shakespeare did all right, didn't he, without these things?" – Jilly Cooper ([32:52])
• "I think I was mean." – Jilly Cooper, on early correspondence and the nature of modern social media ([38:38])
• "I want to cheer people up, that's what I like to do." – Jilly Cooper ([39:28])

---

Important Segment Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | Description | |-----------|----------------------------------------|----------------------------------------------------| | 03:13 | Opening biography and intro | Day summarizes Cooper's career trajectory | | 06:04 | Literature vs. popular fiction | Their exchange about literary merit and labels | | 06:49 | Reflections on class | Cooper recounts writing "Class" and saving her home | | 08:13 | Inspirations for iconic characters | Cooper discusses men who inspired Rupert Campbell-Black| | 12:27 | Mother's struggles and resilience | Talking about her mother's depression and recovery | | 13:36 | Hoarding and drafting process | Jilly discusses her writing habits | | 19:01 | Losing her “Rivals” manuscript | The infamous London bus story | | 23:29 | Infertility and adoption story | Candid story about discovering infertility | | 25:24 | Advice to those considering adoption | Warm encouragement to listeners | | 27:29 | On diets and self-image | Cooper’s lifelong struggle with body image | | 32:52 | Failing at technology | Tales of typing, typewriters, and aversion to tech | | 35:37 | Driving test misadventures | Late-in-life driving lessons | | 37:29 | Shifting nature of fame and public | Cooper reflects on public recognition | | 39:28 | Essence of her legacy | Her mission to bring joy and champion kindness |

---

Tone & Atmosphere

The conversation is intimate, full of warmth, humor, and self-deprecation, with Jilly Cooper’s infectious laugh lightening even the more difficult subjects. Elizabeth Day’s admiration is palpable, and together they create a candid, uplifting examination of legacy, resilience, and the unlikely gifts of failure.

---

Summary Takeaways

• Legacy through joy: Despite critical dismissals, Cooper’s books have made a generational impact, offering both escapism and shrewd social truths.
• Resilience: Whether in the face of professional, personal, or bodily failure, Cooper models acceptance, humor, and persistence.
• Honesty about insecurity: Her admissions of self-doubt and lifelong feelings of inadequacy resonate powerfully, especially for women.
• Power of reinvention: From hoarder to bestselling author, and from failed fertility to joyful adoption, Cooper reclaims her story at every turn.

---

Closing

This episode stands as a tribute to Jilly Cooper’s irrepressible spirit and her ethos of delighting and comforting readers, even—especially—in the face of failure.

Transcript

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

I, like many of you, I'm sure.

[Elizabeth Day]

Was so sad to hear of the death of Dame Gilly Cooper at the age of 88. I was so lucky to get to interview her for how to fail in October 2024. And I say I was lucky for myriad reasons. She was a hilarious guest, someone who had such a Z and twinkle for life. But she's also someone that I hugely admire as a writer, someone who is a shrewd observer of class in her books, someone who historically spoke openly about her inability to conceive biologically and who really made women feel seen both on the page and in life. I'm so, so glad that her work got the resurgence that it deserved with the TV adaptation of Rivals, and we also delve into that in this conversation. I hope that you enjoy enjoy it, and I hope that you listen to it and remember the remarkable woman and writer that was Dame Giddy Cooper.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

I know from experience that starting your own business can be super intimidating and can feel really isolating, so I empathize with those of you who are currently feeling that way. However, I've got a tool for you that can simplify everything and make you feel less alone for millions of businesses. That tool is Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Mattel to brands Just getting started get started with your own design studio. With hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store to match your brand style. Turn your big business idea into With Shopify on your side, sign up for your pound one per month trial and start selling today at shopify.co.uk fail. Go to shopify.co.uk fail.

[Elizabeth Day]

This episode is.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Brought to you by Squarespace, the all in one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online. Squarespace is here to support entrepreneurship and help turn your passion into a business. It does so with cutting edge design, seamless checkout for customers, with simple but powerful payment tools. It helps you turn leads leads into clients, allowing you to grow and communicate with your audience.

[Elizabeth Day]

Their customers include the Dusty Knuckle Bakery.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

And Cafe in East London and if.

[Elizabeth Day]

You know, you know their bread is amazing.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

They're a Squarespace customer and a brilliant.

[Elizabeth Day]

Example of how to do it right.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Their training program provides young people who've been excluded by society with the basic skills for work and life. Go check them out. Head to squarespace.com fail10 for a free trial and when you're ready to Launch use offer code FAIL10. That's FAIL1 0 to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

[Elizabeth Day]

My guest today was so naughty at school, teachers dubbed her the Unholy Terror. Over time, this naughtiness has served Dame Gilly Cooper rather well. When, as a newly married young woman, she found herself sitting next to the editor of the Sunday Times Magazine at dinner, she regaled him with stories of her husband and and he promptly commissioned her to write for the paper. She became one of the Sunday Times most popular journalists, writing a column for over 13 years and interviewing everyone from Margaret Thatcher to George Best. But it was as an author that she would become famous. She published her first book, how to stay married, in 1969 and since then has written or contributed to another 44 works of fiction and nonfiction. She is probably most well known for for the Rupture Chronicle series, which includes the bestsellers Riders, Rivals and Polo. Her books were wrongly dismissed frequently as mere bonkbusters. In truth, they are full of memorable characterisation, taboo busting action and humorous insights into everything from the British class system to whether a woman should shave her legs. I gobbled up the whole lot as a teenager and have never forgotten how fearlessly thrilling Dame Gilly's writing felt. Her books have sold over 11 million copies in Britain alone.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Now, an eight part Disney adaptation of.

[Elizabeth Day]

Rivals, starring David Tennant, Adrian Turner, Emily Atak and Danny Dyer has just hit our screens. Despite her success, Dame Ginny has never been one to take herself too seriously. I'm sort of frivolous, she has said. I don't write literature, but I hope my books have given people joy. I hope they make people happy. Dame Jenny Cooper, welcome to how to Fail.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

You are lovely. I want to cry now. Nobody's ever been so nice about me.

[Elizabeth Day]

Well, you've made me very happy through your books and I'm extremely happy that you're sitting here opposite me today. Thank you so much.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Lovely.

[Elizabeth Day]

Thank you for blazing a trail for the other female journalists starting out on newspapers who've then gone on to write books.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

You really were Catherine Whitehorn. There were some great ones.

[Elizabeth Day]

I mean, there were great ones, but you did a fantastic job. So thank you. And I wanted to end on that quote because I think I'd like to take exception to the idea that you don't write literature, given that riders made the BBC list of 100 most important English language novels in Love, Sex and Did it.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

I couldn't find it. You're sure it's there?

[Elizabeth Day]

Well, it comes up Again and again in press cutting. So I think it must be.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

That's a cheer up. I'm very pleased.

[Elizabeth Day]

Do you actually think you don't write literature or have you been made to feel that you don't?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

I don't know what literature is. I remember I have a best friend called Joanna Trollope. He was always described as a literary author and I was described as a popular author and I used to feel bit sad. I don't know. When things become literature, is it time? I mean, if something is read 100 years time, then I don't know what the definition. Do you?

[Elizabeth Day]

No, I've never asked myself that question. Maybe as you say, it becomes literature if it stands the test of time. Your books are famous for their sexual content, but I'm fascinated by your insights into class. When was the first time you can remember being interested in the British class system?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

We were so broke we were going to have to sell our house in Fulham. And then I wrote this book Class and went to Trace in the bestseller, was there for 20 weeks and saved our house. I think class is interesting because people do behave in a peculiar way. I mean, in my book I had Harry Stokerat who was the aristocrat and then there was the nouveau Richards who were the nouveau riche. People like that. You have fun with glass, I think.

[Elizabeth Day]

And do you think it's still as prevalent as it was when you wrote that book?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Probably not much, but I still think people look up and down at people. I mean, it's rivals book. Lots of the couples who look down on each other. I think it just tilts, goes on secretly. I don't think people talk about it quite so much.

[Elizabeth Day]

Are you excited about the TV adaptation of Ryan?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Yes, very. I can say it's absolutely wonderful. Gorgeous actors. Aidan Turner from Poldock who's up to.

[Elizabeth Day]

Heaven and he's not even playing Rupert Campbell Black.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

No, no, no, no, no. Man called Alex Hassel, who's done all for Shakespeare, he's playing with become black. And then David Tennant in it, who's wonderful too, he's playing the baddie Lord Baddingham. So, I mean, there's a fantastic cast.

[Elizabeth Day]

Rupert Campbell black stalked the corridors of my teenage imagination.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

I hope he did. I hope he did.

[Elizabeth Day]

He really did.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Gilly.

[Elizabeth Day]

The first one of your books that I read was Polo and he just blew me away. And he is renowned in your books for being the most handsome man in England. Who was he based on?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Three men, really. Andrew Parker Bowles is definitely a great friend for a long time And Anne Camilla, his darling wife. So he's very like Rupert because he was beautiful and blonde and stunning. And then there was a man called Mickey Suffolk, who was absolutely wonderful, very, very funny. And then there was one called Rupert Lysa Green, who was marriedly carried into Betjeman. And they were all these gorgeous men I met. So it was an amalgam of all of them, really.

[Elizabeth Day]

So Andrew Parker Bowles, you mention, is now the Queen's ex husband?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Yes, that's right.

[Elizabeth Day]

And you describe yourself as middle class. Isn't that interesting that you're now friends with the Queen?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

No, I don't think so. I mean, I'm sure the Queen's got lots of friends. She's got lots of dogs.

[Elizabeth Day]

And Rishi Sunak, our former Prime Minister, is a big fan of yours as well.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Met him the other day. I went to his. Went to his house, Downing street, and he's gone now, poor darling. But he was so nice. We had half an hour together and he's very attractive. We had a really, really nice chat and he said the sweetest thing at the end. Sorry. No, that was wrong. So I got the wrong story. No, that was Prince Charles when I got my damehood.

[Elizabeth Day]

It's an understandable mistake. Okay, so you confuse the now King with our former Prime Minister, but what did then Prince Charles say to you?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

No, no, he was so sweet. I said, he's got to stay well because the country loves him so much. And he said, by the way, we've got two rather good horses running at Ascot this week.

[Elizabeth Day]

Did you put money on them?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Yes, they didn't really, did you? I think they did.

[Elizabeth Day]

The next week, I wondered, when I asked you the Rupert Campbell Black question, whether you were going to mention your father and your brother, having recently been lucky enough to get a preview of the BBC documentary that's coming up about you. Both your father and brother were incredibly handsome adults. Very gorgeous.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

I'm obsessed with beauty. Why? I just love it. I love beautiful people. I'm unnaturally obsessed with beauty, I think.

[Elizabeth Day]

Tell me more about your father. So he was a brigadier?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

He was a brigadier. And he was absolutely. He was a wonderful, lovely, lovely man. And he got first Cambridge. He played ragafil, the army. He was very glum.

[Elizabeth Day]

And were these early male figures, did they embody that kind of masculine, macho energy that comes across in your books like macho men?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

I'm afraid Leo, my husband, was macho.

[Elizabeth Day]

How would you describe macho?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

My father went off to work and my mother looked at home after Us. I don't think this is necessary at all because I think it's lovely women who go out to work. But I do think men being strong and happy about their masculinity and women being happy about being feminine is lovely.

[Elizabeth Day]

So what do you think of the age that we're living through now where some people might think that that view is outdated?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

I long talk to my granddaughter, but she's at a boarding school at the moment and she says the boys are very bossy. From that view, it seems boys still are very macho.

[Elizabeth Day]

Do you think you're a strong woman?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

No. Weak.

[Elizabeth Day]

You don't strike me as a weak person. A weak person couldn't have written the books that you've written or had the success that you've had or saved the house that you were living in. Twice we'd say, Putnam's Glass.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

We moved to Gloucestershire and then we asked the bank manager to stay for the weekend and we took him, introduced him to lots of royalty and he sat on the terrace on Sunday night. Oh, lovely old properties, lovely old properties. What a tragedy. You're going to have to sell it. I said, what do you mean? What do you mean you wouldn't have to sell it? Don't think your dirty little book writers will get you out of it. And it did. Sold and sold and sold and sold. So V signed bank managers.

[Elizabeth Day]

Exactly. And you moved bank afterwards, didn't you?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Day]

It sounds to me like you have with understood a lot of sexism over the years, not just from that bank manager, but also from people who have dismissed your books as Bonkbusters.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Rivals is interesting because Rivals, actually, there's a lot of screwing in it, obviously, because people are sort of carrying on as they do. There's an awful lot of other things. I mean, in the old days there was 15 different television stations around the country. Every five years somebody would try and take it away from the incumbents and that meant the regional television was really, really strong and powerful and built up the regions, which I think is very important. Now. It's all London based.

[Elizabeth Day]

So it's also. Your books are about power.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Power. LAUGHTER A bit. And nature. I like nature.

[Elizabeth Day]

I'd love to talk to you about your mother a little bit because I understand that it was her who started reading to you at a very young age. You started reading at the age of four.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Yeah. She's wonderful. Very, very beautiful.

[Elizabeth Day]

I read somewhere that she struggled with depression.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

She did. She hated moving house. Every time she moved house she had a bit of a nervous breakdown. With Daddy in the army, that was a bit difficult.

[Elizabeth Day]

Very difficult.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

But she was absolutely divine.

[Elizabeth Day]

How old were you when you became aware that things were difficult?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

We moved from South Yorkshire to London. I remember coming home and seeing Daddy looking very miserable. I said, darling, what's the matter? What's the matter? He said, mummy, you know, she's had to go into a home. She tried to commit suicide.

[Elizabeth Day]

I'm so sorry.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

By the end, she suddenly got really strong. When he. He got vaguer at the end, she was really strong, but she died at 91.

[Elizabeth Day]

Do you think that's partly why you have this desire to make people happy?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Yeah, I like making people happy. I mean, I'm a picture behind their backs. But I do like making love.

[Elizabeth Day]

And is that the secret to writing a great sex scene is to leave.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

The humor in besides the marriage? I said that the good marriage was kept alive by creaking bedsprings, more from laughter than from sex.

[Elizabeth Day]

Let's get onto your failures. Your first one is your total failure to throw anything away. Are you a hoarder?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

I always make about 15 drafts of everything I write, and I keep them in case there's an absolutely brilliant paragraph in draft 13 that I might want to go back to. And so, as a result, when we moved to the country, I filled up the gazebo on the garden with all my crud, my 15 drafts. Then I moved up to top of the house. Then Leo died. I moved into his study. Leo's lovely office on the ground floor is filled up with notebooks, files, drafts, the photographs of people. I'm just terribly untidy.

[Elizabeth Day]

Leo is your beloved late husband? Yes. Do you miss Leo?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

I do. With Parkinson's is so vile. You're horrified when you actually say, please, God, take him, because it's so cruel. Then you feel absolutely bald.

[Elizabeth Day]

I'm so sorry you went through that. How did he feel about being Mr. Giddy Cooper, or how did he feel about your success?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Well, the thing Elizabeth Jane Howard, you remember, was married to him.

[Elizabeth Day]

Kingsley Amos.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

That's right. And she came up to Leo at the Hatchard's Author the airport, and said, hello, Leo. How are you enjoying being Mr. Gilly Cooper from Lorne? He wasn't pleased. I think it was difficult for him. I think it is difficult for anybody. I think it's difficult. You go to any party and the people rush up to somebody you're with. And then, because I was with Stanley Tush at Wimbledon the other day and love is Stanley, and everybody saying, get out of the way. Get out of the way I want to sell for his Stanley. So I think it is difficult. It must be difficult.

[Elizabeth Day]

Let's go back to why you don't throw things away. So is there something about the past beyond the idea of the fact that you might have written the most exquisite sentence in draft 13? Is there also something about cherishing the past?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

No. But also, everybody's so kind. They're always in my presence of. I'm not good at being tidy. I like to be, but I never have been.

[Elizabeth Day]

Have you ever been sent pants?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

No. Who? You?

[Elizabeth Day]

No. I'm actually kind of offended now. And I got divorced in my mid-30s and then I started dating again. Don't worry, I'm married to a lovely, lovely man now and no one has ever sent me a dick pic.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

A dick pic? Yes, that's what they're called.

[Elizabeth Day]

Literally a picture of their penis, which apparently is quite common in current.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Is it current occurrence now? Is it?

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Extraordinary thing. Extraordinary thing to do, don't you think? Completely up or down.

[Elizabeth Day]

I've never been sent one, so I don't know. I think maybe half tumescent, but not fully erect.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Tumescent's a good word too, isn't it? It is. It's one of those words having a crossword, you know, where they say, which is tumescent.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes. It's also one of those words that would be terrible in a sex scene.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Yes, it would. It would.

[Jonathan Van Ness]

You guessed it, it's me, Jonathan Van Ness from Getting Better with Jonathan Van Ness. Okay, babes, can we just take a moment to talk about how special our dogs are? My babies are not just pets, they're my family. Which is exactly why I switched to Ollie. Ollie delivers fresh, protein packed meals made with real human grade ingredients backed by vet nutritionists and crafted with culinary experts. And let me tell you, even the pickiest eaters get excited at mealtime. My pups run like the bulls during in Sierra when they hear that Ollie pouch open. Plus the Ollie app offers on demand health screenings so you can actually tap real experts for peace of mind. That's so iconic. Head to ollie.com. better tell them all about your dog and use code. Better to get 60% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today. Plus they offer a happiness guarantee on the first box. So if you're not completely satisfied, you'll get your money back. That's O l l I e dot com. Better. And enter code. Better to get 60 off your first box. It's Jonathan Van Ness from Getting Better with Jonathan Van Ness. It's easy to feel hopeless, but we don't have to stay there. I'm all about finding places where we can turn that energy into hope and into action. One of those places is Americans United for Separation of Church and State. Americans United, or au, is this quiet but mighty force working every day to preserve freedom without favor and equality without exception. I am so obsessed with that tagline. And let me tell you something, honey, that wall between church and state, paper thin. It's got a leak, honey. It's one of the last safeguards protecting so many of our rights. So right now, from bodily autonomy to LGBTQ + rights to the future of public schools, to me, this is about creating a world where everyone gets to live as themselves. As long as you're not harming anyone else. Now is not the time to curl up and hide. It's the time to link arms and stand together for a better future. Join Americans United for Separation of Church and State and their growing movement because church, state separation protects us all. Learn more and join the [e-mail] better. Let's go. Americans United.

[Abercrombie Kids Ad Voice]

Abercrombie Kids knows how to make outfitting easy. Mix and match sets or their outfit ultimate outfit hack for fall. Their sweatshirts and sweatpants are super cozy and they always have the cutest colors and patterns. Shop fall's easiest outfit at Abercrombie Kids in the app, online and in stores.

[Elizabeth Day]

So you can't throw anything away.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

No, no.

[Elizabeth Day]

And has it ever happened that you have gone back to draft 13?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Can you imagine? I lost Rivals on a bus.

[Elizabeth Day]

This is one of the most terrifying stories I've ever heard about any writer. Please tell it to us.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

I was halfway through writers. I'd written about 400,000 words and I took it out to lunch to sort of fiddle around with the full stops and put photo adjectives in and tart it up. I went to lunch in soho, obviously got a bit pissed. Then I went to Selfridges and bought some centers. One does all the way. And I got on the 28 bus to go home. And. And when I got back to Parliament, it was gone. So I had this fantasy about some bus conductor writing the novel of the century.

[Elizabeth Day]

So you had to wait then for a few years, didn't you, before you could?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Yes. This was in 79.

[Elizabeth Day]

You rewrote the whole thing?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

I had to, Yeah. I think it was better because it was a bit more developed, because it was finished in 84, something like that. So it was a long time to wait. It was awful.

[Elizabeth Day]

There's another story around public transport that comes up when one researches Dame Judy Cooper. And it must have been a very shocking and scary one.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Paddington train crash.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

We went trundling along, just getting into Paddington. The train just crashed and all around us were people who did Romy. And I was sort of pulled out and I was all right, really, but I was going to a conference about the Holocaust. It was one of my books. Of course I got to this conference, the Holocaust. Everybody happened that was far, far, far, far worse than me in a little crash at Paddington. And then I. So I sort of cheered up and everybody was very nice to me and I got back to my house in full at the time and my children said, mum will miss her dogs. So they thrown the dogs into a car and driven them up to London to meet me. Was that sweet?

[Elizabeth Day]

That's so sweet.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

So sweet. There they were.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes. It strikes me, talking to you, that you have been through some difficult things, but you're not self indulgent. You dust yourself off and carry on. Would that be fair?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

I mean, for a journalist, as you know, or a writer, you've got to meet a deadline, haven't you? So you've got to do something about it.

[Elizabeth Day]

Do you think of your life as meeting a deadline? Are you. Are you sort of ever aware that it's final?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

No, but I always think. I always think I might need some more money. I'm always worried about money still.

[Elizabeth Day]

And how do you feel about death?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

There's two things I love. The thing that when you die, all your favourite dogs at your past come running towards you across the sunlit dawn. Your favorite dogs leading the pack. Isn't that lovely? And I'd love to see Leo again and I'd love to see my parents again, but I just think all them all up now. I'm worried about the clouds holding them up.

[Elizabeth Day]

Oh, chilling.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Do you know what I mean?

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes. I should say actually, before we move on to your second failure, that you are one of the very generous guests who've given me several failures, not just three, because you said that you failed so many times, you can't just limit it to three.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

No, no.

[Elizabeth Day]

Do you think this is something that a lot of female guests say to me? And I think it's possibly because women of a certain generation, myself included, are brought up not to believe in themselves fully and so they often think that they fail, whereas someone more self confident might think, well, you know, there's an obstacle that I can navigate, but eventually I'm guaranteed success. Do you think you've Always felt insecure.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

I wasn't very clever at school, but I failed Oxford because I went for an interview at St Hilda's. It was all in tweed suits and sort of bossy boots, running around saying, what do you think of this? What do you think of that? I was there and I suddenly thought, I don't want to go to Oxford. I don't want to go to Tilda's with these sort of bossy women in tweed suits. And so I lied. I said, I'm terribly sorry, I've just heard my mother's ill and I've got to go back to Yorkshire. And I went back to Yorkshire and of course I didn't get in.

[Elizabeth Day]

Have you ever regretted that?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

It would have been lovely to get a degree. I mean, I would have been very proud. I hate that I didn't go to Oxford, but, I mean, wasn't that an awful thing to do?

[Elizabeth Day]

No.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

They just weren't my kind of people as women.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes. And how interesting that you tell me that story in response to that question, because actually, that shows to me that you really knew yourself. You sort of knew where you were happy, in a way.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

Okay. So your second failure, which we know isn't really a failure, but it's such a moving thing to talk about. It's about not being able to give birth to your children. But it had this miraculous outcome because you adopted your children. Would you mind telling us, Gilly, how you discovered that you wouldn't be able biologically to conceive?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

I was married and we made love a lot. Great deal. I was 24 then, Leo was 27, and he already had a daughter. And we wanted to have children. And nothing happened. Of course nothing happened. And nothing happened. And nothing happened. Went from gynecologist to gynecologist, and I had an ectopic pregnancy. And the doctor just said afterwards, no, I'm sorry, I just want to come out. And he said, I think you should think about adopting because I don't think you're likely to conceive. I mean, I wasn't that maternal. I'm not berserk about babies. So it wasn't a real terrible senior heartbreak for me, but I desperately wanted children. Of course, that was when we first adopted Felix. And it was difficult because Leo was divorced. And so they were a bit sort of iffy about then. And then, of course, there's a lovely adoption society. First they found us Felix, then they found us Emily. And miraculous. I could never love any much as I love them. So I was incredibly lucky I wonder.

[Elizabeth Day]

If I could wind back a little bit and ask you whether you felt like a failure. You said that you weren't particularly maternal. But as someone, I've also been through fertility challenges and even though I know on a logical level I'm not a failure, it was very difficult not to internalise the sense that my body was letting me down and partly.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

And you were letting your husband down too. Yes, exactly. There is that because Leo's first wife, very, very beautiful and had six children by five different fathers and all beautiful. And I think I was jealous of the fact that she was being so wonderfully successful. Also, I wanted children. I longed for children. I love Leo and I just wanted some children. So. It's horrid, isn't it?

[Elizabeth Day]

It is horrid. How old were you when Felix came into your life?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

I was 31. Okay. And Emily was about 33 years.

[Elizabeth Day]

If anyone is listening to this and they are going through a fertility struggle and they are considering adoption, but maybe they're scared of it for various reasons or they're intimidated by the length of the process, what would you say?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

I'd say go absolutely for it's been wonderful. It made me so happy. Feels literally within the house for five minutes. Totally, totally in love. The same with Emily. It's absolutely miraculous. We've had this amazing present. I recommend anybody to do it. It was wonderful for us.

[WhatsApp Ad Voice]

When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn [e-mail].

[Home Depot Ad Voice]

The holidays have arrived at the Home Depot and we're here to help bring the excitement with decor for every part of your home. Check out our wide assortment of easy to assemble pre lit trees so you can spend less time setting up and more time celebrating. And bring your holiday spirit outdoors with unique decor like one of our Santa inflatables. Whatever your style, find the right pieces at the right prices this holiday season at the Home Depot.

[State Farm Ad Voice]

This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast. Smart move. Being financially savvy. Smart move. Another smart move having State Farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with a personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is There prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state.

[Elizabeth Day]

Your final failure is your failure to keep to a diet. Tell us about this, Julie.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

I probably have a very good diet. In the middle, I would have tangerine for breakfast, Then I have something like sort of broccoli or something for lunch. Then I have dinner, but not very much in the evening. And suddenly I think, smug. I'm really thin now, so I'll trot off to the larder and get chocolate biscuit or bit of camper solar or something, and then three glassier mints or something. I lapse and so I have to start dieting again the next day. As soon as I get a little bit thinner, I get smug.

[Elizabeth Day]

Why do you feel you have to diet?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

I've got weighing skills. If I'm nearly nine stone, I get worried. If I'm nearly eight and a half, I'm happy.

[Elizabeth Day]

But why? Why?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Because a lot here.

[Elizabeth Day]

You look amazing.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

No, no. Very big thighs.

[Elizabeth Day]

No, you don't.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Fat size.

[Elizabeth Day]

This really upsets because you do look amazing and you always have and you've always been a very thin.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

No, but I've always had to watch my weight like mad.

[Elizabeth Day]

What's your fear about not watching it? What's the ultimate fear? If you didn't diet, what would happen? That would be awful.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Something fat.

[Elizabeth Day]

Why is that awful?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Perfectly. What other people. I just don't want to be fat myself.

[Elizabeth Day]

I know why. What's the root cause?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

And also, I'm not trying to pull anybody to seven either. Just I don't want to be. And also because now I have to. Now with Rivals, I've got to go on sort of programmes and do television and things like that and look, not too bad. I'm trying to be a bit thin.

[Elizabeth Day]

How much of this do you think is wrapped up in the era you came of age? You know, I came of age in the 90s and that was still pretty toxic for women in many respects. And I still have that kind of internal narrative, which is like, should you be eating that? Which I reject, I strive to reject every single day. Because as women, we are so much more than what we weigh. How much of how you feel do you think is wrapped up in the culture rather than in the gilly?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

I've always sort of thought I was 11 and a half stone when I left school.

[Elizabeth Day]

And was someone critical of you?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

No, not particularly, but I just felt very fat. And I remember going to France. I Was in love with the host's son. It was absolutely gorgeous. He said, this is Julie over there. And then she said, l. A trailade. Oh, no. Nay part. That means very ugly. Ver lad Egrosse.

[Elizabeth Day]

Egros. And fat.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

No, no, no. This was the daughter of the heavenly man. She just said I was ugly and fat.

[Elizabeth Day]

And that's clearly stuck with you.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

It did. It did. I don't want that back. I don't mind anybody else being any size. I just don't want to be that myself. I can't get in my clothes anyway, things like that.

[Elizabeth Day]

Is there any age that you've been where you have been fully happy with your physical self?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

No. I think it'd be pretty smug if one was.

[Elizabeth Day]

I suppose there's this desire, Well, I have one, anyway, that the older I get, the more I'll feel accepting of myself.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

You must be accepting. Why are you not accepting yourself?

[Elizabeth Day]

Oh, all the normal, boring insecurities about. I mean, lots of things, am I lovable, all of that sort of stuff. But now that you're in your 80s, what do you think of yourself? Do you think you accept yourself, love yourself?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

I'm very happy, but, I mean, I miss Leo, but it's fine. I live in a lovely house and I live in a beautiful part of the country and I have my children very near, so my grandchildren. I'm very lucky.

[Elizabeth Day]

You should eat what you want, Gilly.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Okay.

[Elizabeth Day]

And drink what you want.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

No, I don't think I should drink when I want. Much better than I used to be. But we used to drink much. Everybody used to drink much more. Don't you think?

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes, well, when I first started out in journalism, that was sort of early 2000s, and we still went for incredibly long Tuesday lunches with loads of booze.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

You had long lunches, didn't you?

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

That was lovely. And then you came back to the office and you couldn't remember anything but what you'd done. It was awful.

[Elizabeth Day]

Tell me what Margaret Thatcher was like to interview.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Oh, sweet. Amazingly, amazingly. I was quarter of an hour later and I collapsed into her office in floods as usual, and said, God, I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry I'm late. Sit down, Julia, sit down. Don't worry, don't worry. I want Julia a cup of tea. And she said, now, my dear, I gather you would like a. Why don't you come and see me for two hours in Chelsea next week? So how can I not love her for that?

[Elizabeth Day]

And did you go and see her in Chelsea?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Lovely, lovely time. Chatted. And then I interviewed her again later. But I thought she was lovely. I mean, a hell of a job being the first woman to be Prime Minister.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

I mean, she's bossy boots, but I think the men put her through it, don't you?

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

She had a lovely husband who adored her.

[Elizabeth Day]

Well, he, rather, like Leo, was used to being the husband of the more successful. High profile.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Yes, but Leo's much Leo's match. Dennis wasn't like that. But Dennis was absolutely sweet, gentle and lovely. I thought he was charming.

[Elizabeth Day]

Have you met our current Prime Minister, Keir Starmer?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

No, have you?

[Elizabeth Day]

I have, actually, yes.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Nice.

[Elizabeth Day]

Very nice.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Really?

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes. Maybe you should send him some of your books. Get invited back to 10 Downing Street.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

I don't know. Like animals.

[Elizabeth Day]

I actually didn't ask him if he liked animals, which is now a real failing of mine. I feel like that should be a question in every single interview that I do.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

What?

[Elizabeth Day]

Do you like animals? Animals, yes. No, I know you do. I'm saying it should be a question. I should have asked Keir Starmer that and I failed.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Yes, you should.

[Elizabeth Day]

I mentioned that you had given me many more failures, so I'd love to touch on some of those. Your inability to understand anything technical.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Oh, God. Awful. Monica. My typewriter. I've typed. Manual typewriter. He's got a pair of scissors attached to one side of her and a pen to the other. And I used to just sort of cutter all the books since Riders or Monica, and now I don't use a laptop. I don't use. I can't. I'm not very good with. My telephone's cocked up now and I can't use all those lovely oblongitis things that people use. You tell them facts, you know, press a button and they'll tell you who Shakespeare married and things like that in five seconds. So wonderful. I must learn those. I can't do any of that. So, I mean, as I said in that piece, I mean, Shakespeare couldn't have had any of those aids. He did all right, didn't he, without these things? But I can't.

[Elizabeth Day]

Will he be able to watch Rivals? Will someone come and set up the television for you?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Oh, no, we've got a television. I can press the television button. I can do that and press that on wireless. It's awful. Monica's typing comes out so rare than my hair now, so I can't really read her.

[Elizabeth Day]

Are you writing something at the moment?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

I wanted to write A book about Sparta. Because Sparta, ancient Greece and all the men, that's macho men in Sparta.

[Elizabeth Day]

Can I ask you a bit about your writing process? When it comes to writing a new book, where do you start? Do you start with planning or with writing?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

At the moment I'm sort of thinking about Sparta. I've got a hero. I just thought myself making character notes of characters and then notes of chapters and then notes and then funny remarks. And I might fit in that character. I just sort of mess around for about six months and then I get started.

[Elizabeth Day]

Right.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

How do you do it?

[Elizabeth Day]

I am not very good at planning. So I need to start writing to understand the character. And then I'll sort of retrofit the plan around that. Then I do do a bit of planning, but I have things very clearly delineated in my head and I can sort of drop myself into the world and remember the characters. Do you have that because you have this cast of recurring characters now? Over 11 novels of the Rutcher Chronicles.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

I think we're up at 60 now.

[Elizabeth Day]

Right. But do you remember them very easily? No, no.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

I had to read Rivals again the other day. I couldn't remember. Slightly shocked by some of the language.

[Elizabeth Day]

Who's your favorite fictional creation of your own? If you were stranded on a desert island and you have to choose one of your characters.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Yeah, I mean, rather tiring. My age. No, but I love Taggy. I love lots of the characters and I love the animals too. I love Gertrude and Rival's dog.

[Elizabeth Day]

And your final failure of the five that you sent me is driving. So when did you learn to drive?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

I mean 60, I think. I started and was a lovely driving stretcher called Peter Clarkson. Took a year and a half driving around the country together. And then I went. I passed my test for the second time.

[Elizabeth Day]

What happened the first time that you failed?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Oh, I just ran into someone else or something. Ran into someone else? No, I didn't. But I did pass a second time. Everybody fainted at home. I think the whole family were completely horrified. My children were so mean. I mean, they literally used to cross themselves every time they got into my car with me.

[Elizabeth Day]

Why do you think?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Because I was a terrible driver.

[Elizabeth Day]

What was it? Were you scared?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Age of 50 something and not even taking a test is ridiculous, isn't it?

[Elizabeth Day]

I don't think it is, but I suppose it feeds into your inability to understand technical things as well. You're just a creative. You're an artist.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

I'm hopeless. But then I gave up. I had lovely white polo Which I.

[Elizabeth Day]

Loved, I feel, hearing you talk. You're very mean about yourself, but very lovely about other people.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

I'm quite lost with other people sometimes too. Are you?

[Elizabeth Day]

Just when you're not. Not when you're recording a podcast.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

No, don't mean to be mean, it's just people are funny, aren't they? So you have to laugh at them.

[Elizabeth Day]

How important is friendship to you?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Very.

[Elizabeth Day]

How many friends do you think you have?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

I don't know, but though I have got lots, they will write to me and say, julie, we must get together. I do mean to, but I always. We all must find this, you know, a hate droppers in. Because if you're a writer, you hate droppers in, don't you? Just get to the best bit in the paragraph or book, then suddenly some idiot comes, wants to drink and everything, and you've lost the plot.

[Elizabeth Day]

But friendship, what do you think it's given to you over the years?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

I had to write a friendship piece for the Sunday Times, big double page spread. They were really kind, they liked the piece and so they said I could have a party and give me lots of champagne, I could invite my friends to it. And it's a lovely picture of us all on the lawn in partly having a nice time.

[Elizabeth Day]

I wonder how you feel being a sort of institution now, because it must be difficult for you to go out on the street in London, is it not?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

No. In the old days everybody recognized. Now they don't anymore.

[Elizabeth Day]

And what was it like when everyone came up to you and recognised you.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

And I didn't mind, really. I mean, it was just something that happened. Not everybody recognized me. They did. And I would sort of put on a bit of makeup before I went out and things like that. First thing in the morning was with black rings under your eyes and sort of red veins, your cheeks. That wasn't very attractive, actually. That looked very nice.

[Elizabeth Day]

And how do you feel when people pay you compliments, when they say, gosh, your books meant so much to me.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

It was lovely. I used to get in the sun times, you'd get 100 fanlesss a week and things like that. Did you keep them somewhere? And that's probably why the place.

[Elizabeth Day]

And they were important to you?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Well, they were nice. They were lovely to have. I mean, it was important. I don't mind not getting them now, but I mean, I think the Internet's different, don't you?

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes, it is different and I think.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

I think the social, whatever they call it when it was beast is horrid.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes, horrible. Don't bother with social media either.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Awful. Why? I mean, it's cheating because they don't say who they are, do they?

[Elizabeth Day]

Exactly. They can do it anonymously. Whereas in our day when we were on newspapers, people had to make the effort of putting pen to paper and finding a poster stamp and walking to the post box. So there was a barrier.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

I think I was mean.

[Elizabeth Day]

So my final question is, if you look back to 14 year old Gilly, what would she have thought?

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

I might have been very proud of myself. I would, wouldn't I?

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes, I think so.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

I mean, I'm terrible. I love it. I love the backstop. I sound so ungrateful. I'm so grateful. I mean, I mean, when I got the letter about being a dame, I mean, it arrived at home and I opened it and I thought, oh, somebody's fooling around. So I put it. What? What? And Felix came in and he said, what's the matter, Mummy, what's the matter? I said, I've got a letter. What's a letter? God, who's died? Who's died? I said, no, no, look. He was thrilled too, but I mean, look. But I mean, you don't expect it, you know what I mean? You don't think it's really you, but it's very nice.

[Elizabeth Day]

We started off talking about literary acclaim versus sales. Do you ever feel that you've been overlooked by a literary establishment and does.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

It matter as long as people read them and enjoy them? I said, I want to cheer people up, that's what I like to do. Or just sort of make them feel if they've been cruelty to animals or cruelty to children. I'd like to make people stop doing cruel things. Animals and War was one of the most important books. I read the Imperial War Museum and that was a lovely book and it was the saddest book I've ever read. God, it was awful what happened to all these animals. I'm glad I wrote it because it made people aware of how wonderful animals were. I hope. I was proud of that.

[Elizabeth Day]

Dame Jenny Cooper, thank you for cheering people up over all of these wonderful books that you've written. I am loving watching Rivals and even better for our listeners, you're going to stay on and you're going to cheer them all up because they've been writing in with their problems and failures in failing with friends and they are desperate to get your advice. But thank you so, so much for coming on how to Fail.

[Dame Gilly Cooper]

Thank you, thank you. Lovely, lovely.

[Elizabeth Day]

We would love you to follow us to get new episodes as they land.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or.

[Elizabeth Day]

Wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends and share a link with everyone you know. This is an Elizabeth Dayne Sony Music Entertainment Original Podcast. Thank you so much for listening.