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- [00:00]
A
I know from experience that starting your own business can be super intimidating and can feel really isolating. So I empathize with those of you who are currently feeling that way. However, I've got a tool for you that can simplify everything and make you feel less alone for millions of businesses. That tool is Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Mattel to brands just getting started. Get started with your own design studio. With hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store to match your brand style. Turn your big business idea into With Shopify on your side, sign up for your pound one per month trial and start selling today at shopify.co.uk fail go to shopify.co.uk fail.
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B
Abercrombie Kids is bringing the ultimate first day energy back to school. It all starts with on trend outfits for that front door photo shoot, plus the coolest tees, shorts and jeans to take them through the rest of the year. Get them ready for their close up and keep them comfy too. Make this grade their best one yet. Shop all things back to school in store, online and in the app.
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A
Welcome to how to Fail, the podcast that believes that failing better is a path to succeeding better too. This week I'm so excited to say we have actual Kate Hudson and I just wanted to give you a reminder before we get onto the main episode to join us for Failing with Friends, our subscriber episode where Kate Hudson gets to act as your agony aunt and we answer listener questions, requests for advice, and some insights into listener failures too.
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B
You just have to be okay not being there for everybody all the time.
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A
Do join us by following the link in the podcast notes and if you have a question or a failure that you'd like me and my guest to discuss, look out for my monthly call outs on Instagram. Or you can follow the link in the show notes to contact us there. Thank you so much. Kate Hudson was once described by an admiring journalist as the human equivalent of chicken soup when you're ill. And it's certainly true that as an actress she has starred in some of my favourite feel good watches over the years. She rose to prominence for her luminous portrayal of Penny Lane in Cameron Crowe's Almost Famous, for which she won a Golden Globe and was nominated for an Oscar. Her comedic turn as wisecracking magazine journalist Andy Anderson in How to Lose a guy in 10 days made that movie one of the greatest romantic comedies of the noughties, which is my opinion, but it's also correct. And her performances in everything from Bride wars to Glass Onion have each been scene stealing in their own way. Raised by actors, her mother is Goldie Horn. The man she calls her father is Kurt Russell. Hudson acknowledges that storytelling is in the family blood and turned down a place at New York University to pursue acting. Her 40s have so far proven to be a decade of intense creativity. This month, she returns to the small screen in Running Point, a new Netflix comedy from Mindy Kaling. Hudson stars as a reformed LA party girl unexpectedly appointed president of the family's professional basketball team. Last year, Hudson also released her first album, Glorious, which entered the Billboard charts at number 10. It's a multifaceted output that stems perhaps from her admission that in life, I just feel everything.
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B
It's so true. Is it? It's true. Oh, my God. When did I say that? I do. I feel everything.
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A
You said it in an interview where the journalist quoted your teenage journal at you and apparently you had written this journal ent country when you were. Sorry, this is that creepy. I love it. Well, I sound like a stalker.
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B
I love it. I, I, because you forget these things, you know what I mean? That was probably a, a little bit a while ago.
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A
Yes.
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B
But I do remember and I now I want to remember what journalist that was because I actually remember that.
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A
I'll send you the link.
- [04:40]
B
Oh, send it to me.
- [04:41]
A
But let's focus on this interview.
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B
Okay.
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A
And first of all, let me welcome you officially to how to Fail. Kate Hodson.
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B
Hi. I'm so happy to be here.
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A
I'm so happy to have you. That idea of feeling everything, is that hard sometimes?
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B
I mean, yes, if you're, you know, I, I wouldn't cons like, I'm, I'm empathetic, you know, I think real hardcore empaths, like, carry the world on their shoulder. They don't know how to escape their empath empathy. Yeah. Which is also, in a weird way, can be very debilitating and hard to live with, you know, if you're. And hard to be friends with people who just, you know. But they're also incredibly important in this world to be a real, like, empath. I, I feel things strongly. I see it in my daughter. Like, it's like I walk out into a day and I, it's like I just can't wait to see what the day is going to bring. I look at a sky and I can, I, I can feel everything about the beauty of a Even like the most terrible days. Right. So it's like, I think, I think it's. My senses are very keen and aware, and so I just feel.
- [05:55]
A
I feel it all that's so well expressed, and I relate to a lot of it. And I find it difficult because I think I am empathetic. I find it difficult when people criticize me, not to take it very personally. Now I'm a little podcaster, but for someone who is as famous as you are, that must have been tricky. At one point in your life, I'm guessing, like, did you make a decision about what to let in and what to keep out?
- [06:24]
B
At some point I learned. I mean, because I grew up observing and being a witness to it and like the ups and downs of it. Like, not only just sort of my family, my family has had extraordinary careers. Very few downs, you know, but, but, but their friends, their friends and people who work in the industry like you do really grow up realizing that it's a very tumultuous machine. Like, one minute you're at the top, and the next minute you're trying to figure out why you're not getting paid to write this movie or direct this movie. It's just constantly. You're constantly at the whim of executives and financiers. So it is tumultuous and you can't always be on top. So I knew that going in and I knew that, like, if you get into the arts, you just have to love it. If you love it, then you're going to be okay because you figure out that talent will always win and work ethic and all the other stuff is just noise. And then there's sort of age. So, so then like, let's take. Put age to the equation. In my 20s, when you're first entering success, it's like there's so much coming at you that you could get caught up in the new. The. The little nuances of it, get frustrated by it, how it makes you feel violated sometimes, you know, and. And it is, it's incredibly. Encroaches on your life. It's very intense. And then if you have a good sense of self, you realize that it has nothing to do with you, it's just the way it works. So you try to, like, have other things matter more than you. I had more, I think more perspective because of how I was raised.
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A
So there are so many things I want to ask you about, but I'm about to get on a tangent and I need to ask you about running point and glorious.
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B
Okay, okay. Yeah, let's just get that out of the way.
- [08:34]
A
Running. I loved both for. For different reasons. Running point is such a blast. Was it as fun to make as it is to watch?
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B
One of the best times of my life, making a show. Well, it was a show. I say movie, but working with people. We had so much fun. It was so much fun. And I would leave work because it's long hours. I didn't realize how long a show is. And when you're like starring in the show, it's like 5am to 7:30. I was not with my family hardly, and that was really hard. And I remember thinking one day when I was going home from. From work. Thank God. I love these people so much because this is some of the hardest hours I've ever worked on a show. And I can't wait to go to work in the morning. And if I didn't have that experience with these people, it would have been a disaster. Like, I just want to be home with my kids. But instead I was be like, bye, kids. I'm very happy to leave right now.
- [09:41]
A
There are some zingers in the dialogue. And one of the things that comes up early on is this idea. I'm going to get the phrasing. Wait, I've got it written down. Men can fuck up when they get big jobs. Women have to be perfect off the bat.
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B
Yeah.
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A
I was like, oh, my God, that. So that resonated deep inside me.
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B
Yeah, there's going to be a lot of lines like that, but not always just about, you know, like, women in. In the workplace. Like, it's just a lot of lines that you're gonna be like, oh, that totally resonates. And a lot of lines were like, wow, they got. Are they gonna get away with that? But, yeah, I mean, that. That is the world she's entering. And Jeannie Buss, who's the president of the Lakers, is what this is loosely inspired by. And she's one of our producers on the show, and it was really her idea for the show. And I mean, it's one thing to be like a woman in a man's world. Like, it's another thing to be the first woman to run a major basketball. Professional basketball franchise. I mean, there is not one woman in that. I mean, in the community, it's so male heavy.
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A
Do you think that you have been underestimated as a woman in your industry? But also as someone who is such a brilliant romantic comedic lead? I imagine that there are people who sometimes watch those movies and think that it seems Effortless and yet it's clearly not. There's so much talent that goes into that level of comedic timing.
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B
I think there is a thing about female comedic leads that are in, are really like what you would consider dramedy. They call them rom coms. But that sort of dramatic comedic line, it's not full comedy. It's. You're sort of walking this kind of line of comedy and accessibility and honest and like ground being, feeling grounded. It really isn't something I think everybody can do. And you see it in, I mean as a producer, like as I get older, you know, I, I can see it in some young talent and young girls. Yeah. I think that sometimes for sake of money that a lot of, A lot of the industry will sometimes shy away from really leaning into the right talent.
- [12:15]
A
I just again, another tangent, but Hash is a guy in 10 days. I, I don't know if you're sick of talking about it, but I just want to thank you so much for that movie. What you do in that film is so fun, beyond brilliant. We've got our love ferns in the studio today for you. I just wanted to thank you for that.
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B
Really.
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A
It's a great movie.
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B
We, you know, I, we just lost our producer on that. She passed in October. Yeah, but I, but we were, but you were saying, and I was thinking about this when you were, you know saying like have you ever felt underestimated? And I was so lucky to have women like Linda Obst. Really like she took me in at that, on that film from the very beginning, from the writing process, from writing to hiring the director to hiring cast to, from production design. She wasn't like I'm producing this movie. It's like we were absolute partners. We did everything together. And she was a very notable producer, has produced some great films and, and the fact that she took a 22 year old young girl and empowered me to be a partner with her was, is not often. So I feel like I was. Have been blessed with so many people who actually almost encouraged me to put my ideas out there to be like your ideas matter, what you think matters and you know, it. It's sort of as I, as I reflect on my career, I got very lucky in that way. So it's sort of something you pay forward, you know, as you get older, produce yourself, you know that you give younger women the courage to be like your ideas need to be heard in the, in this room, you know and, and not underestimate them because, because it's, because it's new. Because they're because it's new for them.
- [14:20]
C
Hey, everyone, it's Jonathan Van Ness. If my dogs could talk, they'd be like, excuse me, Queen. Where's my Ollie? You better make it rain, diva, because we are not going to cuddle with you or anything if you don't get us our Ollie. And honestly, I can't blame them. Listen, the titles of these little foods. It sounds like it'd be on a brunch menu. Fresh beef with sweet potatoes. Fresh turkey with blueberries. My dogs are eating better than I do, and I'm obsessed with that. Here's the best part. Ollie is the only fresh dog food with unlimited health screenings. You better screen your dog. Dogs deserve the best, and that means fresh, healthy food. Head to ollie.com/better. Tell them all about your dog and use code better to get 60% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today. Plus, they offer a happiness guarantee on the first box, so if you're not completely satisfied, you'll get your money back. That's O l l I e dot com. Better. And enter code better to get 60% off your first box. When you listen to Nobody Listens to Paula Poundstone, the comedy podcast, you learn stuff.
- [15:28]
B
I've been learning to throw a boomerang because this, this is the kind of thing that really gets the listeners engaged.
- [15:34]
C
You know, interviews with people who will make you smarter.
- [15:37]
B
Does the amount that you learn protect.
- [15:40]
A
You from cognitive decline? Paula, don't try to catch that.
- [15:45]
B
Can't people just listen to the show? Can't they just enjoy a delightful treehouse full of information? And I think I'm bleeding.
- [15:51]
C
Join us and be a nobody.
- [15:55]
A
Okay, Your first failure. And another reason I now love you even more is because of your failures. Your first failure. You just send it to me. Relationships.
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B
I was like, well, let's talk what I loved about your this podcast. I don't believe in failure.
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A
Me neither.
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B
Like, it is who we are. Like, it's such. The fear of failure is what stops people from making or doing great things. Like, period. Like, you can't do anything ever. If you, I mean, what's that great quote? Like, fail, fail again, fail harder, fail better. Yeah, well, it was like a president fail by Theodore Roosevelt or something. Whoever it was, just fail at it, you know, and, and the only thing that stops us from doing anything is the fear of failure. And, and, and then, you know, when you have those fears, I, I, I remember one of my exes said to me, I was doing something, he said, well, what are you scared of? And I'M like, I don't know. I'm just. I. He's like, what's the worst that can happen? Just. Just what is it? And I'm like, I'll fall. He's like, okay, I was doing something on a stage. I'm like, I'll fall. And he's like, so what happens if you fall? I was like, it was literally that dumb, you know, it was like, oh. I just literally said, my worst failure is that I would slip and fall. And he's like, and then you just, like, stand up and make it. I don't know. What. Is that really what you're scared of? And I was like, oh, it's so interesting. We. We work ourselves up because we're so afraid we're going to get it wrong. And then you're like, you know what? I'd rather not do it.
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A
Which is the worst failure of all.
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B
Yeah. Then. Then you always wonder what it would be.
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A
Yes.
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B
If you had the courage to make an album.
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A
Exactly that.
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B
To do something that is your great kind of fear of failure. If I fail at this, what will that do? And I think for me, making the album was really. I mean, the only reason why I never got into music is because I think that was the most vulnerable creative place for me. And if I would have put that out as a young girl, I don't know if I'd be prepared for the criticism or the. Or when people want in. Like, what I was talking about earlier, I don't know if I could have handled that well because it was. It's so personal to me, and I. I needed more time to, like, grow into myself or if it would have been, like, panned or not well received. I think it would have, liked, destroyed me, my spirit. And so, you know, there is a time, too, for things for you to be, like, ready for the move.
- [18:52]
A
Yes. And it also felt with glorious. Like the universe was telling you you were ready. Because I love the story of how it came about that it was. You were asked to perform firework and a fellow parent, Linda Perry. Is this right?
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B
Oh, well, that's not how it came about.
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A
Okay.
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B
No, really, what happened was I had. Before COVID I had such a fear of singing live. And I. I would get asked all the time, you know, will you come sing at this event or will you sing here? Because people internally know that I love to sing, but I would be, like, absolutely not. Like, terrifying. No way. And. And my friend was getting married, and she asked if I would sing at her engagement party. And I Didn't realize that this engagement party was going to be in this huge theater with, like, a big band and, like, every person in our industry. And when I got there, I just froze. And I was like, I can't do this. I can't. I was pregnant with Ronnie. I was like. And I hated myself for being so afraid. And the woman that was singing that night is this woman, Maya Sykes. I went to high school with her. We were in chorus together, and I was backstage, and I was like, I can't do it. I can't do this. I don't want to do it. She looked at me, she's like. And these are her. Her words. She's like, I don't know that Kate Hudson. What are you talking about? I hadn't seen her since, like, high school. You love. What are you talking about? What are you doing? And she really kind of snapped me out of it because my old, young self loved to sing and was never afraid of it. So then I was like, oh, fuck it. I'm getting. I can't. I can't. Now she's put it out there. Like, if I don't do this, then I'm. Then there's some. Then I got to, like, go into heavy therapy. I got to figure out what's going on. When I get on stage, it. Just the second I start to sing, everything goes away. And I'm so happy. And that's what happened. And then it was wonderful, and I had a great experience, and. And then I was like, I need to say yes. I need to get on stage, and I just need to be doing it because I love it. I love. I love it. So that was the beginning, and then Covid happened. And when Covid happened, it was the glaring. It was a couple years later, the glaring, like, red flashing light. Like, I'm creatively not happy with my output. I. I love making movies. I can't wait to make more movies, direct them, whatever, produce them. I love storytelling. But my love. My fur. My. My absolute love of writing music, I am, too. I cannot be afraid to put it out in the world because I'll regret it. I'll, like, die and be like, I can't believe I didn't have the guts to do it. And then it sort of unfolded, and I started, like, meeting, you know, certain people. I got involved in, like, the parent band at our school, which is, like, the most amazing parent band of all time, and. And they were like, you should really make an album. And I was still kind of like, I don't know, and then, yeah, I sang in lockdown in this thing with tour from Stargate, and Linda heard it and just cold called me and was like, do you want to come in the studio? And that sort of then became.
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A
Got it.
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B
That long, long winded version. But since I don't need the sound bite, that really is.
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A
It's amazing. And I can feel your love of music and performing, even in the way that you talk about it. I can feel that. And I'm so glad that you've done it was part of your reticence. And we're gonna go back to relationships now.
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B
I love that word.
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A
Was it about your biological father? Was there something there? So he was a musician?
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B
Yeah. I mean, I think that. I think that I always say I meet my dad at the piano because. Because my music that. I mean, I think it comes up from both sides, but, like, it's very Hudson. I think that, you know, you could. I mean, it's a little deep. I'm stretching here, but, you know, you could kind of look at this idea of like, you know, my father wasn't there, he wasn't around, and then all of a sudden, I'm going to be entering into the world in which he is and not really wanting to invite that in because I wasn't ready for it. Like, you could get that heady with it. I try to, like, not. Because there's also just, like, a time and a place in your life. There's the other side for me, which is I became very. Like, my success as an actor happened so fast and so young. And at the time, you didn't go from movies to music. So it was like that part or that idea or anything that I thought could have been something that I would have done now, for me was like, I can't. It's like the kiss of death. Like, if you fail at that, then, like, it's like you're basically just failing. And. And that wasn't how I felt about myself, but it was the perception of how Hollywood was at the time.
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A
So returning to this idea of relationships.
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B
Okay.
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A
I think from what you said that you and I have a very similar perspective on relationships, which is that a relationship is not a failure simply because it ends. And I speak as someone who is divorced and all of that.
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B
Yeah.
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A
But every bad relationship or every relationship that ended has taught me something really meaningful in the fullness of time. And I can still be in a relationship, in a sort of. In a relationship with the relationship in a way, because it's still part of How I perceive love and how I show up in the world. Is that right? Do you think the same or similar?
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B
Yeah, I. Very.
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A
No.
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B
Very. No, no, very similar. But I also think that it would be the hardest part about walking away from relationships is the feeling of failure.
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A
100.
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B
So, like, for. For me, that was the hardest thing, is letting go of the fact that it feels like a failure or.
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A
I.
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B
Couldn'T make something work or I couldn't fix something. And I think that you try. Sometimes it's like, you know, you're trying and it's like, you know, to fit a square peg in the round hole, and it's just never gonna happen. And it's like, if only I could have made it a circle, you know? And it does, especially for people who work really hard at things and love really big and love really hard. Like, it does feel like a failure. And you have to kind of convince yourself. And then you realize as it heals, you realize that then you start to realize, like, oh, this isn't a failure. You know, this was exactly what needed to happen. And. And then you can hopefully. Because if you look back and you're like, oh, what? What did I do? Why. Why was I. Why couldn't I do that? Why couldn't I give that person what they needed? Then you have to, like, do some real reflecting, you know, and really, like, go, like, figure out what that is. When I kept going through the process of relationships where it would end, and I'd be like, there's only one person here that's responsible for this, and it's me. Anybody who's pointing that finger out at other people because they're doing it to you, and they. And it's. It's always that person, and then it's that person and that person. Like, no, there's only one common denominator, and it's going to be you. And if you're not looking at what you're inviting in or what you're putting out, then you're not going to change the pattern. You're going to keep failing.
- [26:49]
A
And when did you get to that point?
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B
Oh, I mean, like, probably. I mean, I've got three dads, so. Second dad, I think, you know, three.
- [27:02]
A
Dads of your children.
- [27:03]
B
Yeah. What's so interesting is Matt, Matthew Bing's dad and I are so close.
- [27:10]
A
This is Matt Bellamy.
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B
Yeah, we're so close. Like, we. I love him. His wife, his family, the kids. Our kids are so close. Ronnie and his little girl, Lovella. They're so close. Like, we figured out how to have a very different relationship that isn't about us being together, but we weren't right for each other. And we tried really, really, really hard. And instead of, like, blaming or creating the argument or creating the problem, it was just like, I think you kind of have to get to that place. I did. Personally, I was like, okay, I don't want to keep doing. I don't want to keep going down this path. It's very easy for. For me because I'm an Aries and I like new things and I have the means to, like, take care of my kids by myself, so. But I want, like, to find the right person, the right fit. And sometimes you're just not. It's not like anyone did anything wrong. And that was for me, when I was like, I gotta kind of figure out my stuff. Like my. My personal. My relationship to my. To myself. Like, what. What is that? I'd never been alone. And then. Yeah. And then I was actually talked about this on do, you know, call her daddy.
- [28:35]
A
Oh, I've listened to it.
- [28:36]
B
Yeah. Yeah. And just, you know, then I just went on this sort of, like, exploration with our men. I did a year. I did a whole thing. It was like, you know, I took boys out of the equation and had to just kind of go through this process of feeling very uncomfortable with not having any connection to anything that could ignite my dopamine. My flirtatious. Because I am very flirtatious by nature. But anything that could be, you know, kind of feel like, oh, that's a good distraction. So he was. So my therapist was like, taking all of that away, all distractions away. And now we're gonna focus on what's going on and where you really get to the bottom of it and. Or to the core of it is when your mode, when you don't, like, you start your mojo goes down. You're sort of like, I have no, like, sexual energy. It's weird. Like, you start to feel almost like this. It was like, for me, this is my. My. I say you. Like, not everybody has just my experience. I started to feel this, like, kind of like. Like I felt yucky. I felt unattractive. I felt. But it was just like. It was almost like peeling away at all of the things that. That I, you know. Cause I didn't have any outlets for getting dressed up to, like, you know, oh, I'm gonna get dressed up and go flirt with a boy. Like, it just. I just took it away. And then it was like, I can't even explain it. I hit something. I hit this, like, core of an issue for myself. I had a absolute, like, almost like a childhood cry, and it was like a weight had been lifted off of me. And honestly, from that point on, like, I could care less about who was texting me. It was like my life became so happy, alone. I was so. I felt very connected to, like, what I wanted to do. My. My. My daily routine with my kids, my cozy time. I didn't care about putting anything on. And so when. Then I went kind of went back into the dating world, my relationship to dating completely changed, I think, you know, because when you're young, like, it's. You're. You're. You know, you've got that thing, and you're like, you want to, like, go out in the world and be seen and do. And at least I did.
- [31:10]
A
Be validated.
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B
Be validated. Oh, my God.
- [31:12]
A
You end up validating yourself. You end up flirting with yourself, and then you're ready.
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B
Yeah. And here's the thing. I thought I was really smart about that. I thought, for me, it wasn't, like, I didn't get it, you know, I was like, I know what my issues are. I know. I get it. Like, you know, what are. What are the relationships with father? You know, all of the stuff you talk about in therapy. And I. I got it. And. But it took me to actually really have to step away from even just being social. Like, it took me to actually have to delve into things that I hadn't even realized I had. I hadn't experienced. And, like, trauma is a great word that everyone loves on Instagram and everywhere and everything. And I think that there's, you know, inflicted trauma. There's, like, real sense of trauma. But I think every. When you go through certain things as a kid, there's all these trivial things that become these weird little traumas that you don't even realize were a trauma and, like, allowing yourself to feel that. I think that was one of the hardest things for me is that I always felt I'm so privileged. Like, I can't. I'm never going to complain about anything. Like, I'm so lucky. But then when you really try to do the deep work, you realize, like, I kind of have to give yourself permission to be like, that didn't feel good in my life at that moment, and work through that in order to get, I think, to the places that you need to get to.
- [32:45]
A
That is fascinating and exhausting. It's amazing.
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B
Yeah.
- [32:51]
A
I want to talk about this for, like, five.
- [32:53]
B
Because it's so fun, because we are complex creatures. You know, I also think there's such thing. And this could be controversial as therapy overload. I also think, like, do the deep work, and then I'm out. Like, I don't want. I don't want to do it right now. Like, I think you need to take breaks and go experience your life and not always be in, like, a therapy session. But that's. That's. This is my personal thing. Like, I did three years of intensive therapy, and I had a great therapist who was like, great. All right, you know, let's. If you want to check in every once in a while. And I was like, oh. And. And he's like, I don't want to be your therapist forever. And I thought that was so great, because I really do think sometimes you have to just go live and then go fail again and then revisit. You know, I mean, fail in the way we like to see failure.
- [33:45]
A
Yes.
- [33:46]
B
You know, go have experiences that are challenging and, you know, but continue to check in with yourself. But, like, you gotta let go, too.
- [33:56]
A
You know, you are now in a.
- [33:57]
B
Great relationship with Dani, who most of the days.
- [34:01]
A
Okay, so what?
- [34:03]
B
Still a relationship?
- [34:04]
A
You know, what do you think are the key things that makes this relationship with Dani different from your previous ones or makes you different within the relationship?
- [34:15]
B
It's such a good question. Well, I would have never ended up with Dani if I hadn't done. If I hadn't been in a place in my life where I was very happy alone. Because I would have never been open to Danny. Like, Danny was my best friend's stepbrother. He. You know, at the time, you know, he. He didn't live a life that were the circles or the people that I was hanging out around or we've had. We have two very different life experiences. And, you know, I would have never, like, been open to it, because my expectation of who I should be with I just threw out the window. So when he kind of asked me out, I didn't even realize we were on a date. And we went on this hike, and when I got into his car. Cause he came over, and I was like, oh, we're on a date. Like, I thought we were just gonna hang out. Cause I had known the family for so long. Oh, this is a date. And I was just so open that I was able to experience him and see something that was, like, real. Like, actually be with someone who really liked me. That there was no. There was nothing about it except that it was just as pure as can be of the connection. There was no, like, friends trying to set us up. There was no dating app involved. It was just, like. It just happened. And I have a lot of friends. Like, I was just having this conversation with my friend the other night, and she has, like, a laundry list of what she's looking for. And I get it. Like, if you put your vision board, you manifest. This is what you're looking for. And I'm not gonna do that again. I'm not gonna be with someone who doesn't have this, or I wanna be with someone who's. I'm not gonna date a short guy. I want a tall guy. Like. And you realize you're just limiting every. You're limiting your ability to love someone. And I. I think because I was so happy alone and because I wasn't looking, that the right person, you know, was right in front of me for 14 years. You know, I knew. Known. I knew Danny for so long. And I think the thing about Danny that has. Is where we match well, because I also think that not everybody's. What is it? Not every hat fits. What, like. Yeah, right, It's. Or every hat fit someone.
- [36:52]
A
Yes.
- [36:53]
B
What does it say?
- [36:54]
A
As jsk?
- [36:57]
B
Whatever. Whatever it is. I. I feel like. I feel like we. Where we're so suited is we have a very strong. Like, our value system is very similar. Like. Like, there's. It's so cozy. And like, when you have that kind of support system, like, his. His value of family is so strong. It's so. It's so solid that it just makes. All of the times that are. Can be hard or, you know, where you're. You know, where life challenges you, it just. It makes them so much easier.
- [37:40]
A
It sounds rooted.
- [37:41]
B
It's very rooted. And like, Esther Perel. Do you like Esther? Do you like.
- [37:45]
A
I am obsessed with her. She's why I got into podcasting.
- [37:48]
B
Yeah, she's. She's. Yeah. I like one. What a wonderful mind and woman. And. But she. She says this all the time, and I agree. It's like. Well, I don't agree. I do. What I think a lot of people do in relationships, men and women, is that you expect someone to have all of it. It's like, oh, you're supposed to be my best friend, and we're supposed to have sex, and you're supposed to, like, take. Take out, clean all of this up, and you're supposed to be the best father in the world, and you're supposed, like. It's like, we put so much pressure on our partners. To be everything. And it's impossible. Again, it would be setting yourself up to fail if you were constantly berating each other to be everything you expected them to. To be.
- [38:38]
A
Yeah.
- [38:46]
B
Race the rudders.
- [38:47]
A
Race the sails. Race the sails.
- [38:49]
B
Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching.
- [38:52]
C
Over.
- [38:52]
A
Roger, wait.
- [38:54]
B
Is that an enterprise sales solution?
- [38:57]
C
Reach sales professionals, not professional sailors. With LinkedIn ads, you can target the right people by industry, job title, and more. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Get started today at LinkedIn.com results, terms and conditions apply.
- [39:15]
B
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Checking off the boxes on your to do list is a great feeling. And when it comes to checking off coverage, a State Farm agent can help you choose an option that's right for you. Whether you prefer talking in person on the phone or using the award winning app, it's nice knowing you have help finding coverage that best fits your needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.
- [39:41]
A
Thank you for sharing your learned wisdom and expressing it with such eloquence and passion, because I know so many listeners will really relate to that.
- [39:49]
B
I have this thing sometimes where, like, people talk about there's, like, you know, a lot of open relationships, very hip.
- [39:57]
A
I could never do it. I'm just way too jealous.
- [40:00]
B
Never.
- [40:01]
A
I would love to be the person who could do it.
- [40:03]
B
I am not. I do not have the makeup to handle it. I just can't handle it. I would. It would. It wouldn't make me feel good, I don't think.
- [40:11]
A
No.
- [40:12]
B
That being said, I have so many friends that I love that have so much freedom in the way that they are in relationships that they're allowing themselves a very different human experience where they're not. They're doing what they're doing what they love and they really believe and that we don't possess each other. And there's a part of me that's like, God, that's so liberating. If you could live in that now, yes. Not for me. In this lifetime.
- [40:44]
A
Yes.
- [40:44]
B
Maybe next lifetime, maybe next one. But what a liberating feeling to really be like, I don't possess you and you don't possess me.
- [40:52]
A
And so much of it is social conditioning and what we have introduced onto this planet as a way of making sense of the chaos that surrounds us. So much of it is that. And it. And it makes us avoid the truth of our own instinct sometimes totally, completely.
- [41:11]
B
Also, it's like love can change form, you know, this idea that, like, it's supposed to be a romantic Partner forever. When you think about marriage or why we had marriage, I mean, most marriages, I mean, look, we're. We're in the country of, you know, where it was really about property ownership. Really. Right. It was, it was sort of people.
- [41:36]
A
Only lived until 40.
- [41:37]
B
Yeah. So you're kind of like, you're like. Well, you know, and they were. And let me tell you, we've read all the books and we're, you know, all the letters and all of the naughtiness going on where people were, you know, had, you know, whether they had lovers or mistresses or, you know, other partners, even though they had this arrangement.
- [42:01]
A
Yes.
- [42:02]
B
So the question becomes like, is it really what we're meant to do and how do we maintain that? It can change form, too. And I think, you know, without. We don't have to hide that anymore. So I don't know.
- [42:18]
A
Let'S blow open the institution of marriage. Kate Hudson okay.
- [42:23]
B
That being said too.
- [42:24]
A
Yeah.
- [42:24]
B
No, I'm talking too much.
- [42:25]
A
No, no, no, you're not talking enough.
- [42:27]
B
I also.
- [42:28]
A
Because you're not married. That's what's interesting as well. And your parents are married.
- [42:32]
B
But I do have. So I have very different. It's almost like I could write a book on what this is like with your children as well, because I also have the traditional mother, father unit. Doesn't have to look like that to have strong family values because I don't know how I did it, but somehow I've created a unit that is so strong and actually almost like more powerful in a way because there's more parents. Like, we are all on the same page all the time. We show up for each other. We're all in the same room. My kids feel so loved by their parents. And somehow we've been able to honor each other as adults to actually continue raising our kids as a unit. So, like, Matt and I go on vacations together. It's spring break. Do we want to do it together this year? Are you going to go? As the kids get older, it changes, but we've been so tight and that as a family, it's almost like a bigger version of a very strong unit. So there's, I think that it's how you. The relationship can fail, but you really can only fail at raising your kids. That I think could be your only failure is that you put yourself before what's in the best interest of. Of a unit for your. For your children.
- [44:10]
A
So well put. And it actually does bring us on to your second failure, which is moments of conflict with your children. Which I'm. I. I'm riveted to hear you talk about. We've never had this failure on this podcast before, but obviously it's something that. That so many people will have to navigate.
- [44:26]
B
So on. My brother and I have a podcast called Sibling Revelry.
- [44:30]
A
Such a good name, by the way. I love a pun.
- [44:32]
B
We. We. I'm giving. Oliver gets all the credit. He's good with puns. So we interviewed Dr. Shefali, who wrote a book called the Conscious Parent. And she kind of. That book spoke to me in a way that. It's sort of like my instinct for that felt like it was there. But when I read that book, it changed the way that I parented. Because you bring your own. I guess for. Again, the word trauma, but you bring your own issues to raising your children. And only when you realize that you actually could have gone too far, not said the right thing, not handled a situation in. In a way that is useful to your kids, that could be traumatic. Or when you show your kids that you made a mistake, that you went too far. A great example would be Ryder when he was about 17. I mean, just you. And you do this as a parent, like, you can lose it. And I just lost it. I just got so mad at him. And I went a little. I went too far in my own anger. It wasn't like, you know, I mean, it wasn't crazy, but it was. I just was like, I went too far and I said things that I didn't like and he didn't deserve me to. That wasn't. That was my own stuff that wasn't his. And I think I remember the argument was over, and I just went up to him and I was like, I handled that wrong. He's like, mom. Mom. Got it. It was like, fine, you know, he's 17. No. And my thing was I will not be that parent that doesn't let them know that there's better ways to figure out conflict, you know, like, that. That wasn't. I. I shouldn't have lost my temper on you, you know, it had nothing to do with you. And that was. There's better ways for me to have done that. Doesn't take away that. It really frustrated me that you keep putting empty wrappers in the pantry, but that just was a catalyst for me to lose it because I'm stressed out over here, and I'm like, my first time away, you know, But I could do that better. So I think that those. You know, you. You do fail. You will constantly fail as a Parent. It's just more about how you handle when, you know, you should actually admit that you made a mistake.
- [47:35]
A
And that doesn't make you weak. It's quite the opposite.
- [47:37]
B
No, it's like, it's like sometimes I see, you know, I, I had a friend situation where, oh, like a terrible kind of cheating thing, right? And it was like this guy couldn't admit that he hurt the mom. Like it's always like, well, we were doing that and all the dad had to do was sit his kids down and be like, I should have done that better. I didn't. I, I was led by this. But I, I did disrespect our union. And it would be so important for those kids to hear that coming from their father or mother, whatever this, whosever situation. But that sit. That particular situation, if he could have just said, you know, and you know, it would have done, it would have done wonders for the connection with the kids and, and, and him. They might be mad at him for a while. But, you know, you got to admit when you're wrong. Prime delivery is fast. How fast are we talking? We're talking puzzle toys and lick pad delivered so fast you can get this puppy under control fast. We're talking chew toys at your door without really waiting. Fast Pads, cooling mat, fast and fast. And those training T R E A.
- [49:04]
A
T s faster than you can say sit fast.
- [49:08]
B
And now we can all relax and order these matching hoodies to get cozy and cute. Fast. Fast. Free delivery. It's on Prime.
- [49:20]
A
What has your mother, Goldie Horn, taught you about mothering?
- [49:26]
B
My mom's not my only parents guy. So, you know, Kurt, it's their relationship. You know, they've been together 43 years, 42 years now. Honesty, I think again, same thing, like showing. I think my parents showed their flaws to us. They weren't afraid to, to be. Like, that was flawed, right? This experience and that argument or you know, this parenting moment. Like I was just saying, you know, we, we never grew up feeling like our parents were these sort of perfect, authoritative figures. I never felt like a heavy expectation of how I was, what, what I was supposed to be for them, right? Like this is what you're supposed to do. You're supposed to get straight A's. You're supposed to, you know, go to this school and try to get into that college and go to that university. Like that's just not. I had none of that as a very artist, like, free wheeling kind of family. And with that came all the flaws. And so I think having a Window into imperfection created would be similar to what I think. I think that made us feel like less pressure growing up, that we had to achieve this, like, you know, something significant, that we just needed to be happy and enjoy our life kind of, you know, as a. As a rule, first and foremost, are you feeling good in yourself? Kids. Do you have kids?
- [51:15]
A
I don't. I've tried and failed, But I have three step kids.
- [51:19]
B
Oh, fun.
- [51:20]
A
Yeah, I tried for 12 years. Fertility treatment, recurrent miscarriage, all of it. And I always thought I would be a mother, and now I'm on the other side of it, and I'm so at peace with not being. And I understand that there are different ways to.
- [51:35]
B
And I'm assuming you didn't want to do egg donor.
- [51:38]
A
I did egg donor.
- [51:39]
B
Oh, you did.
- [51:39]
A
And it didn't work. And then that just kind of tipped me into a place where, in order to keep going, it could compromise my relationship. And my relationship is so important to me and to both of us. And because my husband already has three children, it wasn't as key for him, and I was also respectful of that. And so we talked it through, and it just felt like the right fit for our unit.
- [52:05]
B
Yeah. Yes. And the unit is so important. You know, it's just. I mean, that. But I'm also sorry that you went through that, because that's so hard. I've had so many friends who've been through that, and it's just, like, the process is just so grueling, and.
- [52:24]
A
Thank you. That's really lovely of you to say. And I really value these conversations because there are so many different ways to parent in this world, and it's always really wonderful hearing what someone else is take on. It is.
- [52:38]
B
Yeah.
- [52:39]
A
And how you navigate it.
- [52:40]
B
And your kids are so different. Like, you don't. I mean, I know I don't. I'm not raising them all the same. They have different temperaments. Their nature is. If you listen to your children, it's another thing. Shefali. Like, they're. They're so. They're immediately their own person. And my mom's always said to me, I got very sad when I was pregnant with Ryder. I was so young, but I was really big, and I was really sad. And I. Mom, I don't know why I'm sad. She's like, because the second he comes out, he doesn't belong to you anymore. And I was like, oh, that's interesting.
- [53:11]
A
So why.
- [53:12]
B
Yeah, she's a wise one. She's incredibly wise, my mom. But she. But. But that was so, like, important for me to hear because spiritually, you know, we are. We. When we. When you bring up your children, they are their own people. We, you know, they will fight against their nature. Your. Your nurture, their nature can fight against your nurture. And there's a way to respect their individual nurture, I mean, nature and nurture it so that it's the out. That the way it's outputted is. Is healthy.
- [53:51]
A
Yes.
- [53:52]
B
And strong.
- [53:53]
A
Yes.
- [53:53]
B
You know, you could have a really unruly kid, which I do.
- [53:59]
A
Which one?
- [54:01]
B
He's. Why he's so fun. Yeah, he's not unruly. That's your middle child. But my middle. My middle is. He. He just. He's fierce. He, like, knows what he wants. And. But you know what? He. He needs to be active and doing things. And so you get that nature in a classroom, and it's just like. But you get that nature in the world or behind a drum set or like building something, and it's magnificent. So it's like. And then, you know, all of my kids are like the opposite. They all have totally different natures. So you can't raise them all the same. Just like we can't teach them all the same, you know.
- [54:47]
A
Okay, I could talk to you forever, but we've got you. We've got your final failure. We basically got two minutes and you've got to tell me why. Your final failure is business, which I'm shocked by as someone who loves fabletics.
- [54:57]
B
But it's not a failure.
- [54:59]
A
Right. So. Yeah.
- [55:00]
B
Right. But there have been failures. And. And I think business is very. Again, like children. You know, if you, you know, it's like being a parent. It's like it could go wrong if you're not on it. And you know, you can really. You can. You can mess up your kids and. And the same is with business. You can really mess up a business. And art. Little more subjective. You can kind of work your way around it. You can make excuses, you know, but in business, you're either. You're either working or you're not. I don't see the failures as the failure. I see them as the lesson. But it's so interesting to walk through different. Because I love being entrepreneur. I mean, I love new ideas. I love creating new ideas. Is. But as you see the operating aspects of business, so challenging, so hard. You get all these people who think it's so easy and they think there's some sort of formula, but every business has its own heartbeat. And I've Learned as much with the failures as I. As I have the success, like, successes.
- [56:18]
A
What's the number one thing you've learned through a business mistake or failure?
- [56:24]
B
Trust your gut. I mean, trust your gut all the way. If you got a. You know what I mean? If you have a good sense and you know that and it's kind of led you, you went against it, and you shouldn't have gone against it, then I think it's telling you something, like, always trust your instincts. I would say always know how to pivot. Like, pivoting is so key to business. And don't be afraid to, like, challenge people who don't want to pivot. If you. If your gut saying pivot and, like, be okay. Walking away from something, it's really hard. It's really hard. And it feels like a massive failure. And you feel like you're letting so many people down. And you are. But if you're an elegant leader and you care, everybody who you work with is going to know, and they're going to know everything that you put into it. And when it's time to walk away, like, give yourself permission to be like, it's time to walk away from this. It didn't work. And. And it doesn't mean that the next thing won't. It just means that you, you know, and then. And then. And then, like, don't I find, you know, I've met a lot of people in business with, like, both success and failure. And I would say always be weary of the ones who try to talk up their failures.
- [58:01]
A
Hmm.
- [58:02]
B
Like, it's okay for it to just not have worked and for you to explain why you think it didn't work. That didn't work. We didn't have the right management. We weren't coming up at the right time. We had this opportunity. I didn't take that opportunity. I should have taken that opportunity. Like, actually learn from the mistake. You know, when you get into business with people who are like, oh, yeah, I did this, and what happened with that? Oh, well, you know, this person came in and they really ruined this hangout here. Red flag, Red flag. Like, it's not someone else's fault.
- [58:35]
A
There's such a recurring theme here throughout our chat about taking accountability and being brave enough to be responsible for your own imperfections and flaws and owning that. And Kate Hudson. I don't want to walk away from this interview. I could talk.
- [58:50]
B
I know. This is so fun.
- [58:52]
A
Thank you so much for coming on how to Fail. You are going to answer a few list listener failures okay. But I just want to say a personal thank you from me. That was such an amazing conversation. Thank you.
- [59:04]
B
Thanks. Thanks for having me.
- [59:05]
A
It's my pleasure. Please do follow how to fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends this is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.
- [59:27]
B
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Fully electric Audi Q6E Tron.
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