Katherine Parkinson – ‘I’m Still Learning How to Be Me’

Summary

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Podcast Summary: How To Fail With Elizabeth Day

Guest: Katherine Parkinson – ‘I’m Still Learning How to Be Me’

Date: May 20, 2026
Host: Elizabeth Day

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Episode Overview

In this deeply candid and engaging episode, BAFTA-winning actress Katherine Parkinson joins Elizabeth Day to discuss her personal and professional failures, the lessons she has gleaned from them, and how these experiences have shaped her sense of self. The conversation is wide-ranging: from class dynamics at Oxford to surviving a traumatic assault, motherhood, and the importance of embracing imperfection. With her trademark warmth and wit, Parkinson offers both vulnerability and insight, making this episode a meaningful meditation on resilience, growth, and self-acceptance.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Recent Success and Reflections on “Rivals” (04:00–13:30)

• Katherine’s BAFTA Win:
  Parkinson opens up about her surprise win for Best Comedy Actress, admitting she’s still processing the achievement:

  “A surprising win, I think. Fair to say. Everybody was surprised. Most of all me. I am still a bit drunk…” [03:58]

• Filming “Rivals” & Portraying Lizzie Vereker:
  Katherine explores the complexity and intelligence of the show and her role:

  “I think it’s such a smart, craftily written show… There are really funny jokes… It’s quite gently political, I think.” [05:37]

• Class and Identity:
  Insightful discussion about navigating British class structures, especially during her time at Oxford:

  “I don’t want to ever suggest that I’m from a lower class background than I am, because I’m absolutely middle class. But… the jump to suddenly living with three wonderful, hilarious boys that all had been to Eton… I felt that my classiness was absolutely dependent on me being quite chaste.” [06:46]

• On Set Camaraderie:
  The “Rivals” cast is full of laughter, which Katherine credits for the show's success:

  “I don’t think I’ve ever been in a company where everybody makes me laugh so much, and that is literally all I care about.” [11:03]

• Grieving Dame Jilly Cooper:
  Her passing deeply affected the cast, aligning eerily with scenes being filmed at the time:

  “She just wasn’t the sort of person you expected to die… she had that writerly ability to make you feel very regarded.” [12:30]

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2. Failure #1: Failure to Be Organized (15:16–26:08)

• Academic Chaos:
  Katherine candidly describes her struggles with organization during school and university:

  “I remember a headmistress saying at my school, ‘the key to life is organization.’ And I thought, I’m screwed… I just didn’t pull myself together and it was all a bit of a disaster.” [15:41]

• Toll on Mental Health:
  Periods of disorganization led to breakdowns during exams:

  “I could call it a meltdown, but a breakdown is probably a truer definition.” [16:17]

• Desire to Please & Social Pressures:
  She reflects on how people-pleasing and academic pressures compounded her difficulties:

  “Whenever any of these boys came in the door, I wanted to be funny and charming and ready. So I really just couldn’t focus.” [17:54]

• Acting as Refuge and Self-Discovery:
  Acting offered subjectivity and freedom lacking in academia:

  “With acting, the subjectivity of it… I find that a safer space to be. I think I struggled with the pressure I put on myself… but when I loved the subject, when I was into the philosophy… it was fine.” [23:02]

• MI5 Anecdotes—Humour & Self-Perception:
  Playful interlude about the fantasy of being recruited as a spy:

  “I was literally walking around with my shoulders like, come on, tap me, tap me…” [21:47]

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3. Failure #2: Failure to Acknowledge Trauma (28:16–42:52)

• The Assault [28:57]: Katherine recounts being violently assaulted while on a theater job, an event she hadn’t fully processed or spoken about publicly before:

  “He knocked me out cold and broke my nose… But he was… arrested… I remember being in the hospital that night and hearing the… I think what I find upsetting about it is… the nurse said, ‘oh, she’s a nice girl.’ And the sense of shame I felt…” [28:57–30:26]

• Shame & Societal Judgement:
  There was implied blame placed on her, both by others and, initially, by herself:

  “There was a sense that I had brought it on myself… There was a sense that I was a sort of cheaper commodity…” [30:26]

• Lasting Effects & Parent Anxiety:
  The trauma continues to shape her approach to parenting:

  “I’m really neurotic when it comes to my daughters about walking anywhere on their own.” [32:24]

• Changing Attitudes & Generational Shifts:
  Katherine recognizes the benefits of modern openness about trauma, referencing Michaela Coel’s “I May Destroy You” as influential:

  “The wisdom of therapy, I think, has bled into our culture in a way I find quite helpful.” [32:24]

• On Recalibration After Trauma:

  “A literal smack in the face makes you—it changes you. I’m giving myself… a bit more license to realize that your experience informs who you are.” [34:28]

• Women and Safety in the World:
  Both Elizabeth and Katherine share stories and observations about the pervasive nature of female vigilance and vulnerability:

  “Most women are thinking this when they walk home… We’re all, like, looking behind us and getting our keys out…” [39:09]

• Acknowledging (vs. Burying) Trauma:

  “It is very Northern Irish. Yes. But we will march every summer.” [40:12]

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4. Failure #3: Failure to Play the Oboe (44:13–47:54)

• Humorous Take on a Childhood "Failure":
  Katherine’s struggle with the oboe becomes a charming story of maternal bonding and acceptance:

  “My mum loves the sound of the oboe… I had really protruding front teeth… why this didn’t occur to my mum as a potential problem in learning the oboe…” [44:21]

• Lessons in Embracing Imperfection:

  “My mum has always said to me, ‘you’re not afraid to fail.’ Which is kind of… I was like, what do you mean? I don’t know if I like that… But I feel like for the purposes of this podcast… I don’t mind being bad at things.” [46:27]

• Creativity and Failure in Acting:
  She relates a willingness to look silly or fail to her freedom as a performer:

  “You have to be prepared to fail as an actor. The ones that aren’t going to necessarily do different performances are maybe sometimes the ones that are a bit too controlling…” [47:03]

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5. Self-Acceptance and Happiness (47:57–49:03)

• On Happiness and Self-Acceptance:
  Katherine offers a moving reflection on midlife and contentment:

  “I do think I’m happy. That’s a question I actually don’t think I’ve been asked. I know I’m happy… I think getting to this age has brought an acceptance of myself, which you hear a lot of people say. But I would dare to say I like who I am now.” [47:57]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I don’t think I’ve ever been in a company where everybody makes me laugh so much, and that is literally all I care about.” – Katherine Parkinson [11:03]
• “My mum has always said to me, ‘you’re not afraid to fail.’” – Katherine Parkinson [46:27]
• “The wisdom of therapy, I think, has bled into our culture in a way I find quite helpful.” – Katherine Parkinson [32:24]
• “I’m giving myself… just a bit more license to realize that your experience informs who you are.” – Katherine Parkinson [34:28]
• “You have to be prepared to fail as an actor… you want to just sort of be free. And that’s the beauty of it.” – Katherine Parkinson [47:03]
• “I would dare to say I like who I am now, which I don’t think I’d have said before.” – Katherine Parkinson [48:43]

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Important Timestamps

• 04:00 – Katherine reacts to her BAFTA win and discusses “Rivals”
• 06:46 – Class, shame, and sexuality at Oxford
• 11:03 – The camaraderie of the “Rivals” cast
• 12:10–13:24 – Grieving Dame Jilly Cooper
• 15:16 – First failure: lack of organization
• 17:54 – Student life, pressure, and breakdowns
• 21:47 – MI5 and being tapped for a different life
• 28:57 – Second failure: not acknowledging trauma (the assault)
• 34:28 – Impact of trauma and recalibration after injury
• 39:09 – Women, safety, and vigilance in public spaces
• 44:13 – Third failure: the oboe and accepting imperfections
• 47:57 – Happiness and self-acceptance

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Tone and Language

The episode balances raw honesty with dry humour and warmth. Katherine’s narrative voice is self-deprecating and thoughtful, often punctuated by Elizabeth’s empathetic, supportive questioning. Topics of trauma and recovery are handled with sensitivity and a shared understanding between host and guest.

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Final Thoughts

This episode stands out for its frankness about shame, trauma, and embracing imperfection. Katherine Parkinson’s willingness to discuss her failures publicly, with both laughter and vulnerability, exemplifies the ethos of “How To Fail” – that sharing struggles can lessen their burden, build connection, and foster self-acceptance.

Transcript

[A]

Do you know, my mum has always said to me, you're not afraid to fail. Which is kind of. I was like, what do you mean? I don't know if I like that. I was literally walking around with my shoulders like, come on, tap me, tap me. I remember being in the hospital that night and hearing the I think what I find upsetting this episode of how

[B]

to Fail is supported by Dove Whole Body Deodorant because feeling fresh all over gives me the confidence I need. Hello and welcome to how to Fail with Me Elizabeth Day. This is the podcast that believes that all failure can end up teaching us something meaningful in the fullness of time. Before we get cracking on this episode, please do remember to like subscribe and follow so that you never miss a single conversation.

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[A]

Oh, thank you for having me.

[B]

I'm so delighted you're here. And we're gonna get onto the second season in a minute, but I just want to say, first of all, congratulations. This is literally hours after you've won your bafta.

[A]

You are here and. And a surprising win, I think. Fair to say. I think everybody was surprised. Most of all me. I am still a bit drunk and I realised the last time I saw you I was also drunk because it was at Gilly's memorial. I saw you across the church.

[B]

Oh my gosh. Gilly's memorial.

[A]

Wasn't that the most beautiful day?

[B]

It really was stunning in Southwark Cathedral, the sun coming through those windows, the Queen in attendance.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then everyone stayed and champagne was served endlessly.

[A]

I don't think, think I've ever been stocious in. Is that a word? No, I made it up.

[B]

Oh my gosh.

[A]

My name's Drunk. I think. I think I've heard my dad use that word for drunk.

[B]

Your dad's Northern Ireland, isn't he? Yes, it's another. We've gone totally off on a tangent already. I grew up in Northern Ireland.

[A]

I remember reading that.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Did you? Well, I was. I was in Belfast every single school holiday. I used to love the Ice Lollies, hot shots and Mr. Frosty's. Do you remember those?

[B]

I remember them very, very well. Okay, let me get this back on track. But not before I've asked you all about Rivals because I've been lucky enough to see the first three episodes of the new season and of course, like everyone else in the world, loved the first season. This one's even better. It's so, so fantastic and so Smart. And that's the thing that I often think people downplay because it's vastly entertaining and it's funny and it's sexy, but it's actually very, very smart what it does as well. And I think your character really epitomizes that. And what drew you to Lizzie Vereker in the first place?

[A]

Well, I completely agree that. I think it's such a smart, craftily written show. So just when you think people can kind of not dismiss it, but put it in the category of a lightweight sort of entertaining romp, you know, Bonkbuster, rather like Gilly, the writing is actually far cleverer than. You just can't sort of dismiss it. There are sort of really funny jokes. It's quite gently political, I think. And I think Laura Wade and Dominic Treadwell Collins, you know, if you know them, are just about the cleverest people in any room you're in. So I never had any doubt it was going to be a show with depth.

[B]

And Laura and Dominic, as you say, but Laura particularly is so adept at writing about class, as Dane Gilly was. And there's something in the second season as well where it really sort of unwraps all of that. And I wondered how much that appealed to you as someone who grew up surbiton Northern Irish dad and then ended up at Oxford. Do you think you've got a particular interest in class and observing it?

[A]

How interesting you ask me that. I've never been asked that before and sometimes I sort of feel like I have to be careful because it's such a sort of hot potato, isn't it? Because, of course, I don't want to ever suggest that I'm from a lower class background than I am because I'm absolutely middle class. But the jump to sort of have never met anybody, from even private school to suddenly living with three wonderful, hilarious boys that all have been to Eton. And that is quite a big difference. Yeah. Grammar school and public school. So boarding school and grammar school. I mean, I hadn't even been away from home, really. So when I got to Oxford, I met these, you know, wonderful bohemian public school educated girls, were very open about their sexuality, had, you know, explored all sorts of different avenues and it hadn't compromised their essential classiness. Whereas I felt that there was my. My classiness was absolutely dependent on me being quite chaste.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I felt like I couldn't get away with being. Not get away with. But I couldn't be sexually active, particularly even because I felt that I would quickly be seen as cheap And I look back and I think that's quite. That's a shame. And clearly it's something that I think has changed. I think that women are. Girls are. There was a lot of shame for me. I don't know if that's the Northern Irish thing, but it's certainly not something I felt was anything to do with my parents. It was something to do with how essentially different I felt in the company I was in at university and how I had kind of earned my place at the table by being quite. I was like a mascot sort of thing. But God forbid I sleep with anyone.

[B]

That makes complete sense.

[A]

I feel awful saying it because I don't want to say it with any judgment about the company I was in, because they were some of the best people and the best times I had.

[B]

I don't think you're judging them. I think you're analyzing yourself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is how you perceived you might be judged, rather than anyone making you feel like that. Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And just to bring it back to Rivals again, you know, I love the character of Lizzie and I love her affair with Fred Fred. And Fred Fred is there, played by Danny Dyer, previously of this parish, stands in there. He, his character and his wife are the kind of nouveau riche and sort of looked down upon in so many ways. And yet here is this soul in Fred Fred that we gradually see unfurling and we see this intimacy blooming between the two of you. And I just think it's played so beautifully, and I'm not sure I have a question. I just love watching it. I love watching the two of you.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I was speaking to the magnificent Felicity Blunt, who was saying, you know, this. That it's clever, because in this series, I think the audience is almost invited to slightly judge Valerie ourselves, and then shame on us at the end.

[B]

And Valerie is Fred. Fred's wife. Yeah. And Felicity, I should say, is exec producer on Rivals and a mutual friend.

[A]

Yes. And I think it's. You know, in Julie's books, those characters are sort of written with that sibilance which I definitely had when I was growing up. So I did one to shake that. But I feel like there's a lot of compassion in the TV show for, you know, we're. Not that it's telling a truth of snobbery in this country, that I wonder what the Americans make of it. I wonder what the equivalent is in America. But there is an awful lot of snobbery in this country. And I suppose what I'm saying is I did feel it at university.

[B]

Final question on Rivals for now. Is it as fun as it looks when the cameras do? Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, because everyone I've met who is an actor on Rivals seems utterly delightful.

[A]

I don't think I've ever been in a company where everybody makes me laugh so much, and that is literally all I care about.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's all I've ever cared about. So, Daddy Danny Dyer, as you know, is hilarious. Then we've got Claire Rushbrook, David Tennant, all these people. Lisa McGrillis, Emily Atak. There isn't actually a person in that cast. Gary Lamont, Hubert. That doesn't make me. Alex Hassel, Bella. They're all funny. So I feel like it's. I think, you know, that basically is why it's so fun. Okay.

[B]

I said it was my final question on Rivals. I did lie because we started off talking about seeing each other at Dame Gilly's memorial. And of course, there's a tremendous sadness that must have come with filming this series because she died so unexpectedly and suddenly. How did you, as a cast and a crew, handle that?

[A]

It was such a shock. And I think. Yeah, I know. That's. I know. Obviously, she was the age she was, but she was in such fine fetal, so it was very upsetting.

[B]

And

[A]

oddly, it sort of chimed slightly, as you'll see, with things we were filming, so that sort of made it weirder as well. And, yeah, she just wasn't the sort of person you expected to die. So I think it's still, you know, people like Dominic Treadwell Collins and Felicity Blunt are just. Were extremely close to her. So you want to sort of respect that because their grief is sort of more personal. But she was. She was very present, Julie, and she had that writerly ability to make you feel very regarded when she. When you were in her presence. So, yeah, she's very missed. And I think they're still. We're all still a bit shocked. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I'm so sorry. This season is such a beautiful tribute to her, her spirit and her work.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Let's get onto your failures.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

This podcast is all about speaking the truth, honest, transparent storytelling, and embracing our perceived failures to discover what we've learned from them. Every week, I'm lucky enough to speak with some of the most impressive and inspiring people from around the world. But while those conversations are always a joy, they do sometimes take me out of my comfort zone. And when I'm feeling the pressure, there's always the risk of getting a bit hot and bothered before my Esteemed guest arrives, which is why I'm so pleased to have Dove Whole Body, helping me feel calm and confident. Dove Whole Body Deodorant delivers all day odour protection and is designed to be used beyond underarms on areas such as the chest, back, thighs and feet, helping you feel fresh from head to to. It even comes with added skin care, so it's suitable for my sensitive skin to help reach those trickier spots. Dove Whole Body Deodorant comes in a spray, in a stick and in a cream format with three fragrances to choose from, including raspberry and rose lavender and chamomile, and sea mist and peony, my personal favourite. Go about your day with confidence with Dove Whole Body Deodorant, available at major retailers in store and online. Your first failure is a failure to be organized. Katherine Parkinson. So what do you mean by organized? What, what for you, what would a perfectly curated and organized life look like?

[A]

So I was worried about offering this up as a failure because I thought I'm failing to have interesting failures because this is such a boring failure. And also, you know, I should say, in many ways I am organized. I think my head is quite organized. Although people say that I jump around in conversation and it's a nightmare.

[B]

I haven't experienced that. You seem very organized. You were here on time.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Incredibly eloquent.

[A]

Yeah. I have been known for lateness in the past. That's a sort of, there's an optimism, I think, with this organization. So I sort of think, oh, we'll be fine, we'll be on time. Because there's a world where we could be. When I was a student, I would be like, okay, I'll stay up all night, I'll take some Pro plus and I'll read three Euripides plays in the original ancient Greek. No, you're not gonna do that. So, you know, I remember a headmistress saying at my school, you know, the key to life is organization. And I thought, I'm screwed, you know, because when I was a child, I couldn't color and keep in the line. It's like a. There's. I'd like, I cannot. I haven't sought out any kind of diagnosis, by the way, but there are just patterns of behavior and very impulsive. I change my mind all the time. My agent has to be very patient with that. So there's a, there's a room in our house that my husband calls the chaos room, which is my, my little room. I feel like I know where everything is. But the Reason if I feel it's a failure in my life is because my. I had a couple of times during exams in my A levels and then my mods at university that were kind of the worst times of my life. And I could call it a meltdown, but a breakdown is probably a more, you know, a truer definition of it, because it was pretty awful. And it was because I had not been organized. I was, you know, had all the right things going on in terms of liking the work and all the rest of it, but I just. I don't know, I just didn't pull myself together and it was all a bit of a disaster. The reason I qualify it is because I ended up being fine and my finals were great and everything was fine. So it's a qualified failure. But it was a failure emotionally because I lost it.

[B]

And when you say you lost it and it was dark, what did that look like?

[A]

Well, I. I just. It. Honestly, it's almost like those periods of time are slightly blocked out. And, you know, I do remember. This is terrible, but I do remember falling asleep in one of my exams and waking up and just seeing I had a green Biro and just. And they were, you know, they. Obviously I didn't pull off good marks in those mods, but it was fine in the end. But I think I was. It's part and parcel of what we were talking about earlier. I was in student digs for the first time. I was in a student house. I didn't have a lock on my door. I was so such a bloody people pleaser. So whenever any of these boys came in the door, I wanted to be funny and charming and ready. So I really just couldn't focus. I can remember instead of a normal lamp, I had a red light, so I couldn't really see the words on the page. I would go to tutorials and the tutor would say, have you read the Xerox? And I didn't realise she meant a photocopier. I'd be like, yes, I love Xerox. And I was just such a fraud for that period of my life. But I think with hindsight, so I don't know if this ties into disorganization, but with hindsight, I was trying too hard to be this person to these new people that I had met. I'm blaming it on the Etonians. I was trying too hard, to be honest.

[B]

Even Etonians blame it on Etonians. I think we're fine there.

[A]

They were like the funniest, best people that I'd met and I really wanted them to like me and I knew they did and I wanted to keep that up and so I didn't manage to have a split focus. When I was in my final year I was living in college in an all female college with lovely friend girlfriends walking me around the grounds like a sort of. I was in a sort of sanatorium and I listened to the music I liked and you know, sort of in. Smoked in my room and had a. And really fell in love with modern philosophy particularly and had a, had a, had a beautiful time in that final fourth year. But there have been, there were chaotic times where I, yeah, my A levels I, I wasn't myself, you know and I, I, yeah, it was a dark time.

[B]

I'm sorry, I, I had a similar thing with my A levels too. It's interesting and I wonder. This lack of organization. The word that's coming up for me is a kind of fear. And I wonder if it's almost like you don't let yourself think, actually I'm really great at this subject, I'm going to nail my exams.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Does that, that's.

[A]

That is very familiar to me. I think there's. I really used to want to do well. I was listening to the amazing Chris Hoy saying that, you know, it's important to concentrate on the task at hand. I think sometimes in the past I was end gaming it and thinking. If I'm honest, I think I really wanted to go to Oxford and it wasn't that the odds were stacked against me. I was academic but I wasn't the most academic girl. I wanted to go to Oxford because I wanted to be an actress and that's the only kind of. I know that seems mad but that was the route I saw. I thought if I go to Oxford I can make that weird choice and it won't. Whereas if I go anywhere else I'll have to do the. Not to denigrate all the jobs that I, you know, but I didn't think they were gonna suit me maybe as much as. But you don't know. It's an instinct. And then it sort of seems, it seems like a sort of naive kind of, you know. I also wanted to be an astronaut. I'm a very silly person.

[B]

And your biggest disappointment is not being tapped up by MI5. Me too, by the way. I'm so gutted.

[A]

I was literally walking around with my shoulders like, come on, tap me, tap me. And you were you studying? I did Russian.

[B]

I didn't do Russian at university, but I have done Russian in the past, I'm like, surely. But I am.

[A]

What's going on?

[B]

The thing is, I am very indiscreet.

[A]

I do want to tell people I'm very indiscreet. And I'm not sure I blend as much as. So, yeah, I did actually do the MI5 exam. Did you? And, you know, I. I didn't. I'm not in MI5, Elizabeth.

[B]

Well, that's what you would say.

[A]

But my brothers are.

[B]

What?

[A]

My brothers think I'm in MI5. Do they. No matter how many times I say I am not in MI5, I'm quite. I'm an actress. Haven't you seen anything? I'm in. If.

[B]

If you are, though, will you tap me up, the two of us?

[A]

Why do you think I'm here? Okay, fine. Could we do that? Okay. Afterwards. Yeah.

[B]

When we're not recording. Yeah. Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Anyway. Right. So disappointment's not an astronaut, allegedly not a spy. But that is what she would say. The acting piece. I'm so. I do think that we are sometimes born with an instinct as to what we want to do. And clearly acting was your thing. How does your lack of organization play into that? Is it actually helpful? In certain ways.

[A]

I think that with ac, you know, I kind of love that in. With. With academia, you're just a number and. And you do an A paper. I remember going into exam schools when I was doing philosophy. And you. You know, it's a joint school, so you'd have people that were doing maths and you had people that were doing ppe. And then you'd have the classicists, and we'd all answer it differently, but it would all be kind of the right answer. But it's like an. You're not talking your way around anything. They don't know who you are or whatever. But I also really struggle with the slightly kind of black and white. You're a 70% person and you're an 82% person. And I kind of love with acting, the subjectivity of it, you know, like, some people will love your performance and other people won't. And I find that a safer. I find that a safer space to be. I think I, to be honest, with hindsight, and I really should have therapy, but with hindsight, I think that I. Because therapy, I think, would gets clarity on these things quicker and better. But I think with hindsight, I struggled with the pressure I put on myself because I didn't have pressure from my parents. Once I got into grammar school, that was job done, you know. But I put A lot of pressure on myself to get really high marks rather than kind of loving the subject. And it was then that I lost my way when I loved the subject, when I was into the philosophy or had these brilliant tutors and got excited about it, it was fine. But I think if you're end gaming it just to get a kind of mark out of 10, that's when I

[B]

wasn't happy and that it sounds therefore the acting has been really good for that because you don't endgame it. You love the process. And if you win a BAFTA brilliantly.

[A]

Everything's been easy since I sort of dared to become an actress, like, because it's difficult because a lot of people want to be an actress. So I thought, am I just being unimaginative in my, you know, sort of notion I want to do this? But I, I have found everything much less stressful and I haven't, you know, that if I have sort of stress dreams, they're still about exams, they're not about forgetting my lines. So I think that I felt like a fraud when I was. Because, you know, not to bang on about my. But I do feel like I had a bit of a. Because it was a long degree and, you know, that, that life, I felt like I was pretending to be something I wasn't. This life, I don't. Whereas you hear a lot of people say I feel like I'm a fraud or whatever as an actor, I feel like, thank God I, I dared to do it because I feel, I feel like I'm doing the thing that I am.

[B]

Yeah, beautiful. And how ironic that you literally are pretending to be people you're not. And that is the purpose that enables you to live an authentic life.

[A]

And Obviously, working for MI5.

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

Let's get onto your second failure because I'm aware I want to give this the time and the acknowledgement that it deserves and I'm very grateful to you for talking about it. I think it's probably the first time that you have really spoken about it and so I want to acknowledge that and say I'm sorry for what you went through. And if at any point you want us to to stop, we totally can. I'm also so aware that you haven't had therapy, which I find completely fascinating in and of itself because so many people who come on this podcast have and I'm really intrigued given what happened. So your second failure is, however you put it, failure to acknowledge trauma. And there's a specific incident, isn't there?

[A]

We were in a town out of London and I had last minute disorganized, booked my digs for I think it was 12 quid an hour. It was the cheapest digs I could find because I had this idea, you know, I wanted to prove I could be financially viable as an actress because I had to be. And I didn't know then whether it was gonna work cause I hadn't had any telly jobs. So I wanted to save some money from this theatre job which was optimistic of me. Booked the cheapest digs I could find was walking home one night with a colleague from the theater and a who had previous form of doing this, got into a bit of a disagreement with this colleague of Mine. And I said, leave her alone. And he knocked me out cold and broke my nose and everything else. But he was, I think, immediately arrested, or he certainly went to, you know, went to prison for ABH and all the rest of it. Anyway, the reason I. So I was back on stage next week. I remember being in the hospital that night and hearing the. I think what I find upsetting. I think what I find upsetting about it most is that I remember hearing the. Oh, God, sorry.

[B]

No, don't apologize at all.

[A]

I do remember hearing the nurse in the hospital say, oh, she's a nice girl, you know, as well. She's a nice girl. And the sense of shame I felt that I'd. There was a sense. I remember somebody saying to me, you know, what were you doing to get. There was a sense that I had brought it on myself. And it made me think of. You know, at the time, I was still hanging around with my university friends, and they were saying, parker, you. You walked from the station. We're gonna go and pick up so and so and so and so, you know, and I did sort of. There was a sense that I was. I did sort of think that I felt like I was a sort of cheaper. Cheaper commodity when, you know, I was just as vulnerable, you know. So I think it's good with hindsight to acknowledge it and acknowledge the legacy of something like that, because what I have found is that I'm really neurotic when it comes to my daughters about walking anywhere on their own. And, you know, I was chatting to somebody at the school gate who said, you know, sometimes it's things that have happened to us. Has anything happened to you? I was like, no, no, no. And then you. And then you think, God, yes, it has. I just sort of have this kind of. I think my generation, our generation. I think there was a sense of just getting on with it. And I think that I want to be able to. I mean, my mother's generation, the things that they have tolerated and put up with. And I think there's a lot to be said for getting on with things. But I also think, although I haven't had therapy, the wisdom of therapy, I think, has bled into our culture in a really a way I find quite helpful. Watched In Lockdown Michaela Cole's show. And I found that really, because it's about confronting your.

[B]

I may destroy you, isn't it? It's extraordinary. Yeah.

[A]

And I think that made me. That helped me, actually. And I sort of think I need to acknowledge that I did have quite A serious assault that had repercussions that are basically. I'm not gonna be cross with myself for being a really neurotic mum.

[B]

Oh, my goodness. Thank you so much for talking about that, and I'm so sorry. It's horrendous. There's one thing that I absolutely have to say to you, which is you have no cause to feel any degree of shame. You did nothing wrong. That is all on the perpetrator's shoulders. And I know that at some level, you know that, but there's probably another level which doesn't. Which hasn't taken it in. And I want you to know that beyond doubt that you survived something so appalling, so out of the blue, so violent, so shocking, that it must have required such recalibration of how you felt about the world around you and its relative safety. It was a huge thing to go through. And you sort of sped past the fact that he went to jail and you were in hospital. That's horrendous. But I think you're so right. Our generation, it's a very specific generation. Yeah, we grew up analog. We transitioned to digital. We were carrying a lot of sort of shame.

[A]

Yeah, shame.

[B]

Our mothers fought an amazing battle, but there was still a sort of legacy of shame as a young woman. And we were given lots of conflicting messages. And I remember at that time, there were a lot of news stories about women who, quote, unquote, brought it on themselves or wore the wrong thing. And. And I'm so happy that we are unpacking that as a culture. But you were a product of that. And I also don't want you to beat yourself up about internalizing it, but I want to just absolve you of any remnant of that.

[A]

Thank you. And that is so true. There were a lot of stories back then about that, and I think I probably didn't present as, you know, I wore liquid eyeliner and short skirts and shamefully smoked and all the rest of it. But I know how vulnerable I was, and I suppose it did just because I. You know, it ties into my disorganization as well, because I've got a terrible sense of direction. So part of it was because I didn't know how to get back. But anyway, I just think that I'm giving myself in now. I'm 48. Just a bit more license to realize that your experience informs who you are. And, like you say, your recalibration in a world where I used to just feel so confident and sure, unfortunately, a literal smack in the Face makes you, it changes you. And so I think it's. But you know, I would also say I remember thinking in the sort of 48 hours after that I experienced more kindness from. But you know, I had a terribly messed up face for a while and I did feel a judgment walking around. You know, I carried on, I put an eyepatch on and was on stage in a different city the next week. There was also an expectation back then. There was no counseling, there was no sense at the theatre that, you know, might have been, you know, not. They weren't responsible. Of course they weren't. But there was no real pastoral care. Was. Yeah, it was a, it was, it was a bit embarrassing, I think, for people to see and that I felt a judgment with this messed up face that I, you know, from people that didn't know me, that I was a hard person that lived a hard life and that couldn't have been further from the truth. So I think just, you know, I mean, just talking about it is good. Actually.

[B]

I'm very honored that you have, and you've mentioned your self stated neurosis when it comes to being the mother of your daughters. How do you feel in the world around you? Did you have a period of extreme sort of vulnerability and not trusting the surroundings?

[A]

I mean, I didn't actually stop. You can't stop, can you? I've always, you know, traveled a lot and been on my own and you know, being a theater actress, been traveling late at night. So none of that stopped. I suppose I was a little bit more. I am more. I have been more anxious in situations since. I've gone straight to a very anxious place when I wouldn't have done that previously. But I am aware that I am, as my children are getting older, I am not. And I don't seem to be moving on to the stage I'm supposed to be doing.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, When I was 10, I was getting three buses or whatever to the school. I don't seem to be. So, you know, and when I say I haven't had therapy, it doesn't mean I'm not going to. I just haven't yet. So maybe I, maybe that's the sort of thing when you can see it's manifesting in a way that probably is damaging to people you love. Then you think, think maybe I need to do something to, to sort of.

[B]

Yeah, I offer this not because there's any equivalence because what you went through was so extreme. I was mugged on the street in my 20s by four young men and One of them, like, hit me around the face, but it wasn't actually painful and it didn't require anything approaching.

[A]

You're doing what I do.

[B]

No, but I don't want you to. But I. That sense of vulnerability and neurosis. And I don't have children, but I'm very neurotic about my cat. So I do sometimes think, gosh, in a way, it's quite lucky that I don't have children, because I'm not sure I could cope with the level of anxiety about sending them out into the world. I mean, it's not an irrational thing. I totally get it. And I remember for weeks after that mugging, when I would walk, it happened on my street. So when I walked to the tube each morning, I would have my bunch of keys. Do you remember we used to be taught that, like, you can use your keys as a weapon. I mean, as if. And I temporarily took up smoking. Cause I was like, if I smoking a lit cigarette, then I can just stab it in their eye. And it's so awful that we are made to feel that that is how we need to show up in the world. Because stuff like this happens.

[A]

Yeah. And I think even the people, you know, even speaking to my husband not that long ago, you know, when awful things happen in the media, as they have done in recent years, but things that I can't. I think a lot of us can't stop thinking about, you know, And I really. It is amazing subjective experience, because you can. So close to somebody that, like I am with my husband, but they. I still had to say to him, no, no, no, no, darling, this is what mo. Most women are thinking this when they walk home. Sorry, sorry if you didn't assume that. No, no, no. We're all, like, looking behind us and, and getting our keys out, you know, in London or otherwise. And yeah, I think that's. I, I, I think a lot about things that have happened in recent years. So I don't know. I don't know. It's neurosis. But maybe, like you say, it's based on experience and the world. So I don't know whether I'm just gonna carry on not letting them do anything.

[B]

Yeah, it's fine. Totally fine. Yeah, it's very Northern Irish. Let's just bury the trauma.

[A]

It is very Northern Irish. Yes.

[B]

But we will march every summer. I had almost exactly the same conversation with my husband.

[A]

Right. Yeah.

[B]

And it was fascinating to me for those reasons. He's such an amazing man. He's such an extraordinary feminist, but he was like, oh, my gosh. That's what women think all the time. Or if they're getting a taxi on their own and the driver seems a bit off or a bit aggressive. Oh, that's what you're thinking. I was like, yes.

[A]

Yeah. It's like that Nagel essay. One of the few things I remember from my degree that I seem to be talking about a lot with you today is there was an essay of what's it like to be a bat? And how it's not what's it like to be a bat, but what's it like for a bat to be a bat. And I always think, you know, you can empathize, but you don't know until you're actually this. That person with that person's vulnerabilities and experiences walking in. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I think. I think it's good failure to acknowledge trauma. And I've kind of unpicked it. I've acknowledged it with you today. So I've turned a failure into a non. Failure.

[B]

Thank you for choosing to talk about it. And can I ask why you chose to talk about it?

[A]

It's a privilege, really, to acknowledge trauma. And I think basically by acknowledging what happened to me, I'm giving myself permission to carry on being a really controlling mother.

[B]

Okay, thank you. But you're also modelling for your daughters not to carry the shame. And I'm actually quite struck by the fact that there was no anger in your telling of that episode in your life. There was no anger that I could discern directed at the perpetrator. And again, that's so interesting. Cause in one way, it's enlightened and lovely, and in another way, there's so much fuel and power that comes from anger. And so many men, because patriarchy, have been taught that anger is their birthright, but we're much less used to expressing it.

[A]

I remember being shocked at how little instinct I had to fight back, actually. And that was a bit of a shock. I was like, exactly the same. Okay. I'm, you know, hypothetically, with this sort of youthful swagger. I would think, you know, if that ever happened to me, I'd, you know, give as good as I got or whatever. And no, not. Not an instinct in me to. And that was sort of not disappointing, but quite kind of a bit of a realization of the, you know, the physical difference that we're. We're, you know, that we have to acknowledge and know. Yeah.

[B]

Thank you, Katherine.

[A]

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[B]

is there your final failure. There is no easy seamless link here, but it is your failure to play the oboe.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, yeah. My mum loves the sound of the oboe, so. But when I was younger I had really protruding front teeth. I mean I had to have the Victorian head brace, the leather head brace and dress leather. They wanted me to wear it at school. I was like no way. But I wore it at night. It was like a sort of harness,

[B]

like a gimp mask.

[A]

I wore a gimp mask at night only. And what I had and the railway tracks and the plate and everything else. No, it's fine.

[B]

Perfect. Smile.

[A]

NHS orthodontist. Orthodontist, thank you very much. Not Dr. Mr. Neville Upson of Kingston. Anyway, so I had a really sticky outy teeth and why this didn't occur to my mum as a potential problem in learning the oboe where you have to put your lips over when to get the reed. So I used to go to these lessons and I would spend a whole hour with the really lovely teacher. Just saying we just can't even get you in the right mouth position with the reed. Anyway, I did. I could play Joan, you know the Miss Marple theme tune, the Joan Hickson one. I played that once in a music thing at school and really thought nailed it and got a very low mark. Yeah, the. So I don't think it was a success, but I remember loving going to the lessons because my. I'm. I'm lucky to have a very, very close relationship with my mum. And we used to go to a chocolate shop that made like those truffles, white truffle chocolates with a sort of mockery inside. And it was sort of quality time with my mum. So I, I didn't really let on how little progress I was making because I enjoyed that time so much. But, yeah, I don't play the oboe very well.

[B]

Do you think you learned anything by being bad at it or not as good as you hoped?

[A]

Do you know, my mum has always said to me, you're not afraid to fail. Which is kind of. I was like, what do you mean? I don't know if I like that, but I feel like for the purposes of this podcast, it's like I thought, yeah, no, I don't mind not being. Once I got out of the academic world, I don't mind being bad at things.

[B]

Do you actually find that there's a sort of creativity in being bad or appearing comic and stupid? Not that you. I'm saying that, but there's a clownishness.

[A]

I think that you have to be prepared to fail as an actor. And the ones that aren't going to necessarily do different performances are maybe sometimes the ones that are a bit too controlling, that are kind of. I mean, I think it's probably useful to watch a monitor sometimes, but you don't want to be too aware. You want to just sort of be free. And that's the beauty of it. And that's when you're in flow with it, like when you're. Why I love working with Danny so much is, you know, he is very instinctive and just turns up and is. Is going to lock on with. With you and be in flow. And that's when you feel like you're living this different life briefly. Like it actually feels like you're living a. Somebody else's life with somebody else, you know, And I think you can only do that if you're not afraid to feel. Fail.

[B]

Yes. Do you think you're happy?

[A]

I do think I'm happy. That's a question I actually don't think I've ever been asked. I know I'm happy, actually. Yeah. But I think it's taken. There's been. I think I have. I think I am happy of a happy disposition. Disposition. But I do think that it's taken to this. It's taken. Can I think getting to this age has brought an acceptance of myself, which you hear a lot of people say. But I think, you know, I would dare to say I like who I am now, which I don't think I'd have said before.

[B]

Well, I love hearing that, and I think it's the perfect place to end, really. Does Lizzie get her happiness? Do we know? In Rivals? What can you tell us?

[A]

Does Lizzie get her happy ending?

[B]

Yes. I mean.

[A]

I mean, it's complicated.

[B]

Okay, okay. We'll leave it at that. But, Katherine Parkinson, you are such a wonderful talent on screen and on stage, and it has been a real delight to discover the warmth and the loveliness in person. Thank you so much for coming on how to Do.

[A]

I have loved talking to you. Thank you very much for having me.

[B]

Thank you so much for listening and watching. This episode has been brought to you by Dove Whole Body Deodorant. Please do follow how to fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends this is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.

[A]

Spring just slid into your DMs. Grab that boho, look for that rooftop dinner, those sandals that can keep up with you. And hang some string lights to give your patio a glow up. Spring's calling, Ross. Work your magic.