Kristin Scott Thomas – ‘Having children allowed me to see where I’d gone wrong’

Summary

How To Fail With Elizabeth Day

Guest: Kristin Scott Thomas
Episode: ‘Having children allowed me to see where I’d gone wrong’
Release Date: June 24, 2026
Host: Elizabeth Day
Production: An Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Original

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Episode Overview

In this deeply candid episode, Dame Kristin Scott Thomas joins Elizabeth Day to discuss the transformational power of failure. With warmth, wit, and vulnerability, Scott Thomas explores the personal and professional setbacks that have shaped her acclaimed career and personal identity—including parental loss in childhood, her circuitous route to acting stardom, and the emotional lessons gleaned from motherhood. Throughout, she reflects on grief, identity, aging, and the uniquely female experience in the arts.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Reclaiming the Narrative: From “Tragic” Childhood to Joyous Storytelling

• Scott Thomas shares her frustration with media fixation on her “tragic” childhood and explains how her directorial debut, My Mother’s Wedding, offered a means to reclaim and reframe that narrative:

  • “I got a bit fed up with seeing that every single profile always had a little paragraph about my tragic childhood. And I said, oh, hang on, it wasn't that bad. And then looking at it, you think, well, actually, that is quite serious. Serious damage could be caused by that.” (05:15)

• Discusses using animation in the film, especially for childhood memories:

  • “The lovely thing about animation... painting on glass… gives a sort of looseness to it and it's sort of not precise, and it's not exactly real… I just felt that that was the right way to go.” (08:21)

2. The Joy and Healing of Later Life

• Talks about feeling more joyous at 65 than earlier in life:

  • “Yes, no, I do, I do. And I think it's because, well, I found love, which is a very lovely thing to happen... I feel I've sort of done Tragedy now. I feel I've sort of done it and I've emptied the bag. There's no more left.” (06:09)

• Highlights how playing tragedy on stage (Elektra) was personally cathartic.

3. On Co-Writing and Casting My Mother’s Wedding

• Shares the dynamics of co-writing with her husband:

  • “We sort of compliment each other. He's... able to hold a lot of things in place… I'm much better at dialogue than he is. I could hear the voices, but he could sort of build a structure.” (07:29)

• Reflects on assembling a star cast (Scarlett Johansson, Sienna Miller, Emily Beecham, Frieda Pinto, James Fleet) and what it’s like reuniting with colleagues across decades:

  • “It’s really nice... when there's somebody you work really well with and I work really well with James [Fleet]... you just... relax, and it just sort of clicks.” (10:48)

4. Failure 1: Her “Disastrous” First Film Role (with Prince)

• Describes her casting in Prince’s Under the Cherry Moon:

  • “I got called up to go and do this audition… Then there was this person dressed and it was really him [Prince]. I'd never met anyone as famous in my life... I really was sort of gobsmacked...” (14:09)
  • Humorous anecdote: Prince nervously launches a bread roll across a hotel dining room. (15:41)

• On what fame looks like up close:

  • “It's a weird energy around people who are incredibly talented and precious because they bring in a lot of money.” (16:11)

• On how that experience shaped her perspective on fame:

  • “No, that did not shed any light on that, on my particular brand of fame… it was, you know, extraterrestrial.” (16:18)
  • Finds herself accepting audience appreciation more as she’s grown older: “If people enjoy it, it's okay, it's good, it's nice.” (17:40)

• On revisiting the film:

  • “Well, only snippets of it, because it really does... But, you know, the soundtrack is amazing, the photography is amazing... it is what it is. It was an 80s film... And I'm very grateful for it, to be honest, because it taught me a lot.” (23:42)

5. Artistic Radicalization and Women’s Stories

• On landmark female characters (e.g., Belinda in Fleabag):

  • “When it arrived in my letterbox, it was just like, oh, this is… at last. Someone is saying these things. Thank God." (19:17)

• On the need for more female playwrights:

  • “It's not that male critics don't understand. It's that we need more women playwrights so that it becomes more normal for women to stand up on stage and talk about our bodies, about our experience of childbirth, about our experience of menopause, about our experience of life, full stop.” (19:54)

• Describes becoming more impatient and radical with age:

  • “I just get impatient with… why are we still doing this? Why is there only… of medical research goes into women's bodies.” (20:37)

6. Failure 2: Not Processing Grief in Childhood

• Details the “unnecessary failure” to address profound grief, having lost both her father and stepfather by age 11:

  • “There really wasn't any kind of pastoral care or… therapy... And I just started a new school, it happens again. And that was much more than anybody could really handle, I think, by themselves.” (28:06)

• Acknowledges her eldest child “bossiness” comes from family responsibility:

  • “That's why I get this sort of bossy. I'm so good at being bossy, is because I had lots of practice.” (30:26)

• Discusses how suppressed grief shaped her as an actress:

  • “I was very good at holding it in, at not letting anybody. Don't cry in class. Don't do this, don't do that, don't keep it all back. Be the funniest in the room. Be this, you know, show off... I was able to connect and communicate a kind of inner sadness because I had this thing called a camera that wasn't going to judge me.” (31:53)

• On cinema as communal healing:

  • “The whole point of cinema, if you want my opinion… is that you... sit down and share with a whole lot of other people you will never, probably never see again in your life... and you're all going to be going on this roller coaster together.” (34:13)

7. Navigating Grief as an Adult

• Explains the impact of her mother’s death:
  • “Grieving for my mother was just like being run over by a tank. I just could not… that was a massive shock.” (42:03)
• On mourning her mother as “the woman, Deborah,” not just as “mum.” (46:57)
• Using psychoanalysis to avoid passing on grief to her children:
  • “The turning point was when I had children. Cause I just didn't want to pass it on. Because I think it's a duty as a parent to get your stuff sorted out before you start bringing them up.” (39:12)

8. Identity, Dual Nationality, and Aging

• Reflects on her Anglo-French identity:
  • “It's the hardest question in the world that. Because I really don't know.” (52:22)
• On aging and personal growth:
  • “I certainly enjoy things more. I'm able to enjoy things more. I'm allowed to enjoy things more now. And I'm not quite sure what that is to do with, whether that is just maturity or what it is, but I feel much more... brave enough to try things out and brave enough to accept things and brave enough to sort of do new things.” (53:15)

9. Failure 3: Football Fandom Fiasco (A Lighthearted Close)

• Self-deprecatingly recounts her “bad luck” as a Leicester City supporter—having become involved thanks to her now-husband, a passionate fan:
  • “I think I bring them bad luck... I'm maybe solely responsible for their decline.” (49:35)
• Enjoys rugby more and the unique agony of watching England vs. France as someone with dual nationality. (51:50)

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On the legacy of her parents:
  “I am the result, I am part of that person is me. That's really, really helped me, particularly with my father and my mother.” (46:11)
• On mothers and grief:
  “Now I'd got over all those things and I'd accepted the fact that one is able to grieve… grieving for my mother was just like being run over by a tank.” (42:03)
• On costume as a gateway to character:
  “The first thing you do really is get the costume... I remember when we did the English Patient. The costume designer... got me into the dressing room, said, right, take off your clothes.... She made me stand on a box... It was utterly humiliating.” (36:58)
• On the power of cinema:
  “It's a safe place to go and have all those feelings. And I think that that is such a loss because we don't go to the cinema anymore.” (34:13)

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Major Timestamps

• 05:15 – Reclaiming her story with My Mother’s Wedding
• 08:21 – Artistic choices in film (animation and memory)
• 14:09–16:18 – Auditioning for Prince; lessons on fame from Under the Cherry Moon
• 19:17 – Receiving the monologue in Fleabag and the radical power of truthful female storytelling
• 28:06–39:12 – Parental loss, grief, and the role of psychoanalysis after motherhood
• 42:03 – The shock of her mother’s death
• 49:35 – Football “failures” and the lighter side of life’s missteps

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Tone & Final Impressions

Throughout, the episode offers a blend of humor, insight, vulnerability, and the particular grace of a survivor reflecting on both wounds and triumphs. Kristin Scott Thomas’s steady candor demystifies both the “tragedy” of the past and the high-profile glitter of her profession, encouraging listeners to find meaning—and, ultimately, joy—in imperfection.

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For listeners seeking solace, inspiration, or simply a frank conversation about art, loss, identity, and growth, this is an episode not to miss.

Transcript

[A]

I was very good at holding it in, at not letting anybody don't cry in class, don't do this, don't do that, don't keep it all back, be the funniest in the room. Having children allowed me to see where I'd gone wrong and where I was beating myself up and where I was, you know, doing unnecessary sabotage and damaging. And of course, because I'd been used to father's time and I've kind of grown up with it and got over it and as I said, kept going. Grieving for my mother was just like being run over by a tank.

[B]

This episode of how to Fail is brought to you by Dove Whole Body Deodorant. Welcome to how to Fail, the podcast that looks beneath the hood of success to see the failure that lies underneath. Before we get started on this episode, please do remember to subscribe, follow and like so that you never miss a single conversation this Father's Day do more with dad and spend less with low prices guaranteed at the Home Depot, get him fired up with a new grill and accessories like the next Grill 5 burner for just $299 so you can spend more time together while he becomes the grill master he was always meant to be. Or build memories with savings on top brand power tools so you can tackle projects side by side, gift more and do more together. This Father's Day with help from the Home Depot. Exclusions apply to. New summer arrivals are at Nordstrom Rack stores now. Get ready to save big with up

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your favorite Rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack. We all have our favourite dame Kristin Scott Thomas performance. It might be the brittle but heartsore Fiona in Four Weddings and a Funeral. Or the married woman who experiences a sexual awakening with an enigmatic Hungarian count in the English Patient. Perhaps it's her turn in the Horse Whisperer, which she acted in despite being terrified of horses. Or her role as the businesswoman in Fleabag, who delivers a memorable monologue about women being born with pain built in. Maybe it's one of the riveting performances Scott Thomas has delivered in fluent French, the lead in thriller Tell no One, or the doctor released from prison in I've Loved you so Long. Or it's the icy Diana Tavenner, deputy Director General of MI5 in Apple TV's Slow Horses. Then there are her stage performances. She won an Olivier for her turn in The Seagull in 2008. It's a hugely successful career and yet it almost ended in failure when teachers at the Central School of Speech and Drama discouraged her from acting, improbably saying that she lacked talent. Instead, she moved to Paris as an au pair and restarted her training there. Her childhood had been beset by both happiness and tragedy. Her father, a Navy pilot, was killed in a plane crash when she was 5. Her mother left, widowed at 28 with four children, remarried one of his colleagues, only for him to die in a near identical accident when Scott Thomas was 11. It's an unimaginable experience she has used as inspiration for her directorial film debut, My Mother's Wedding, in which she also co stars and which she co wrote with her second husband, John Micklethwaite. The film tells the story of three sisters who return home for the wedding of their twice widowed mother. In bringing it to the screen, Scott Thomas says, I wanted to take my past and make it into something positive and to show that, yes, catastrophe at a young age can be disastrous. And sometimes it just makes you who you are. Dame Kristen Scott Thomas, welcome to how to Fail.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

It's so lovely to meet you in this studio. And I'm also aware that writing a potted introduction like that can be rather emotionally bruising, I imagine, to hear again and again and again your life story sort of rehashed for the purposes of journalism.

[A]

When you hear it over and over again, as I have, because I've been doing this a very, very long time, it does. You sort of think, but it's so boring. Everybody knows that. But actually lots of people don't. And then when they do find the sort of. The kind of catastrophic element, they're often quite kind of flummoxed by it. And I guess that's why it's in all the articles, because people can't quite believe what they're reading.

[B]

The film that you have directed, starred in and written, is that an attempt to reclaim that narrative for yourself?

[A]

Yeah, absolutely spot on. I just got a bit fed up with seeing that every single profile always had little paragraph about my tragic childhood. And I said, oh, hang on, it wasn't that bad. And then looking at it, you think, well, actually, that is quite serious. Serious damage could be caused by that. And then I had a think and I thought that that perhaps could be shared and understood by lots of other people and turn it into a story with a kind of positive rather than just under the label tragic.

[B]

Yes. And it is a very joyous film.

[A]

Yeah, I think so.

[B]

Do you feel more joyous now at the age of 65, which I can't believe looking at you, but do you feel more joyous now than you did 10, 20 years ago?

[A]

Yes, no, I do, I do. And I think it's. I think it's because, well, I found Love, which is a very lovely thing to happen. And I've also managed to kind of complete things in my career. And when I say that, I mean I've played. I've sort of done Tragedy now. I feel I've sort of done it and I've emptied the bag. There's no more left. And I think I did that when I did Elektra. I think that's what I thought. Ah, don't have to do that ever again. I don't have to weep for a dead father ever again. And so that was. That was quite healing, I would say, playing that. So there's a lot of stuff and, you know, time and lots of work. I've done lots of work. I've never made a secret of that. I've done lots of work with therapists and people, you know, psychoanalysts, to keep myself on track. And it's worked.

[B]

You mentioned Finding Love and you co wrote, as I said in the introduction, this film with your husband, what was it like working together? It was great.

[A]

It was really fun because we sort of compliment each other. He's a very. He manages to hold a lot of things in place at the same time, whereas I'm totally scatterbrained and find that quite difficult. But I'm much better at dialogue than he is. I could hear the voices, but he could sort of build a structure. So anyway, I could hear the voices. I don't know whether that's a good thing to admit to. I hear voices.

[B]

You take that to the psychoanalysts.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

There are so many things I want to ask you about the film. One is the decision, which I found a very moving one, to use animation, when there is one sister in particular, played by Scarlett Johansson, who has these memories and those memories are shown through animation. Why did you choose to use that form?

[A]

The reason I chose animation was because my memory is that, you know, I was five. I'm not sure how true they were. And so the lovely thing about animation and the drawing and particularly that technique, which is painting on glass, which is why it has that sort of quivering feel that gives a sort of looseness to it and it's Sort of not precise, and it's not exactly real. And none of the characters have eyes, and that's because they're not alive. And I just felt that that was the right. Right way to go. I think you can be very emotional with. It really can be piercing animation. You can get a lot done with a drawing.

[B]

Yes. Did playing the mother character give you new insights into how you feel your mother might have felt?

[A]

Gosh, I'd never thought about that. No, not. I mean, they're so. So different. I mean, it certainly gave me insights into how I was as a mother, but. Or what the ideal. I think she's the ideal mother.

[B]

Really.

[A]

I think she's fantastic.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But, yeah, I mean, it was just about. It was funny enough, the scene that everybody says, what a wonderful scene. Because you really. That was written by my husband.

[B]

Very generous of you to say that. Is that the one with the children line? Yes, yes.

[A]

We won't give away too much, but

[B]

it's very, very good. And you got a phenomenal cast together. So. The sisters are played by Scarlett Johansson, Sienna Miller and Emily Beecham.

[A]

I know, it's unbelievable.

[B]

I mean, how terrific.

[A]

And Frieda Pinto and.

[B]

You know, it's unbelievable. And James Fleet.

[A]

I love him.

[B]

Who you're reunited with.

[A]

I know. Again.

[B]

Wait, so you did. You was your first.

[A]

I've been married to him before, you know.

[B]

Okay. Yes. So you. You first professionally worked together on For Weddings and a Funeral. Yes. Okay, that's. And how many times have you been reunited?

[A]

I think that was only the third time we've worked together, but we were married in the Three Sisters. Oh, Chekhov's Three Sisters. So, you know, we've been down that road.

[B]

Yeah. And is it nice being reunited with someone who's known you for so long?

[A]

It is. It is. I mean, we're not friends outside. I mean, we're always pleased to see each other, but, you know, I don't have very many friends in this business, actually, funnily enough. But it's really nice to be able to. There's something that happens when there's somebody you work really well with and I work really well with James, is that you just. They bring out the best in you and you can sort of relax, and it just sort of clicks. And you don't. You don't have to feel you have to pull the scene in any one direction. It just has its own life. And that's. That's a really fun thing to happen. And that doesn't happen all the time. You know, it can Happen. When it does, it's great, but it's not all the time.

[B]

Where are most of your friends from if they're not from the business?

[A]

I don't know. I keep trying to think, do I have any friends? Yes, I do. No, a lot of them are in filmmaking, but not necessarily actors, but there are actors that I love and I'm always really happy to find again. But because we live such nomadic lives, it's quite difficult.

[B]

Let's get onto your failures. There's so much more I could ask you about, but let's hope they come up as part of your failures. Your first failure is your first ever film.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

With Prince.

[A]

I know. Can you believe that was a failure? It was. It was awful.

[B]

Oh, so at this time, you've gone to France as an aupair, you've kicked. Started your training as an actress. You get a part in a French play and that gets you on audition?

[A]

No, the French play, by the way, was a huge hit, even though it was tiny, tiny, tiny. But I got my first ever proper review, which was the best review I've ever had, and it was tragic that it should be my first. Anyway, and then the reviews come for the film that we do with Prince, and they were not good, but. So I was doing this show in a field in Burgundy and creating a bit of a fuss and it was all brilliant, riding high. And I get called up to go and do this audition and it's. They're shooting in France and they need local actresses to play, you know, bit parts. Girlfriends, girlfriend one, girlfriend two. And so I think, great, that's fantastic. Trot along. Go to this amazing hotel called the Crillon in Paris, which is just beautiful. I'd never been anywhere like that. Never even been in a hotel, actually, to be honest. And I walk into this thing and do my interview and my interview, my audition. And because the roles were so short, they gave you the lead, you know, to read, because it was only like, exclamations, oh, Mary, you look great. You know, this sort of thing. And so there was no sort of content. There wasn't enough content to find out whether you were any good. So they gave us this other scene and I did it. And there was a bit of a kerfuffle behind the camera and I was getting a bit worried and somebody poked their head up and said, would you like to audition for the lead? Yeah, I would. I'd love to. So off I go and I do that. And as I said, I'd never been in a hotel before. I Got asked which hotel I wanted to stay in in Nice. I met Prince. That was incredible.

[B]

What's that like, meeting Prince for the first time?

[A]

You know, I was a massive fan. It was, what, 1982, 83, something like this. And I was listening to the record of that summer on my Walkman, you know, listening to it non stop on a loop, and just loved it. And there I was with this man and, hello, how'd you do? And there were three other men around him already. Men, for me, was something a bit scary, to be honest. But, like. And then there was this person dressed and it was really him. I'd never met anyone as famous in my life. You know, I really was sort of gobsmacked, but, you know, you have to keep going. So you put one foot in front of the other and you go and sit on that chair and you're sort of a little bit trembly and the rest of it. And then he blew it because he was also a bit nervous. And he. Because we were kids, you know, I was 23, he was 24. And he makes. And it was in a very impressive dining room. And he goes. He makes some sort of movement with his hand and this bread roll, this nice crispy bread roll goes skedaddling across this polished floor. Anyway, it was all a bit odd. And then the next day, niece, hair, makeup, you know, the whole shebang and costumes and dancing lessons, and I just really couldn't believe. Could not believe it was happening to me.

[B]

Was he mesmeric in his charisma?

[A]

Yeah, but I'm not sure it was him or whether it was just the thing around him, which is this monster of fame and talent and. And people protecting him like crazy. So it was a very weird vibe where everyone's laughing hilariously at anything vaguely funny he could say, and everybody's sort of making sure everything's all right all the time. And it's a weird energy around people who are incredibly talented and precious because they bring in a lot of money.

[B]

Did it teach you how to deal with fame when later you became famous?

[A]

No, no, that did not shed any light on that, on my particular brand of fame that was out there. I mean, it was, you know, extraterrestrial. It wasn't anything that. I've never encountered anything like that since, really.

[B]

I want to come back to Prince and Under the Cherry Moon, the movie that you did together. But I'm intrigued as to how your take on what fame is and whether you find it boring.

[A]

Yeah. Do I think it's boring? No. I think. I mean, I think it's actually the older I get. And I think this is what you were talking about in the beginning is if. Am I happier? Yeah, definitely is that I've come to terms with the fact that if people enjoy what you do, it's not bad. I think there's some sort of old bit of bad Catholicism in me or something that makes me think that wanting people to like me is a bad thing, or wanting people to enjoy or I'm showing off or something. There's always something sort of a bit iffy about that for me, or was. But now I've come to terms with the fact that if people enjoy it, it's okay, it's good, it's nice.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I think that's because I do more theatre. So I understand more what it's like to be in a room with people who've bought a ticket for that night. They've got this contract with the theater. They're going to come and they're gonna have a really good time. And they might cry, they might laugh, they might, you know, get bored. But they are. They've decided to come, and they've decided to come for a reason. And often you are part of that reason.

[B]

Is there a character in the lexicon of characters that you've played that feels to you that it speaks most to your soul?

[A]

Well, if I tell you that when I played Irina R. Kardona in the Seagull, my children said, oh, well, no acting required then.

[B]

Okay, okay.

[A]

But I did love Bridget in. I think she was called Bridget in Phoebe's Piece.

[B]

Oh, fleabag.

[A]

Fleabag, yes.

[B]

Love that. Belinda.

[A]

Belinda, not Bridget. Bridget was someone else. Bridget was in Belinda. Bridget. Bridget was in Salmon Fishing in the Yemen. I loved playing Bridget.

[B]

Belinda, I know I'm getting off on a tangent, but we just have to talk about Belinda because that monologue was so seismic. It's brilliant, isn't it, for so many women. And Phoebe was my first ever guest on how to Fail. FYI. She's a very good friend of mine, and I'm so grateful to you for doing that justice. And it felt so radical at the time. Did it also reflect your experience of getting older as a woman in terms of the radicalization of it?

[A]

I can't even tell you how this thing, when it arrived in my letterbox, it was just like, oh, this is. At last. Someone is saying these things. Thank God.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Loved it. And there was no way I wasn't gonna do that, you know? Yes.

[B]

You also recently read an Extract from Giselle Pellicauld's autobiography. And you've said some very interesting things about male critics not really understanding the depth or nuance of the female experience. Do you feel that you've become more radical as.

[A]

I don't. Can I just make a little correction about that? It's not that male critics don't understand. It's that we need more women playwrights so that it becomes more normal for women to stand up on stage and talk about our bodies, about our experience of childbirth, about our experience of menopause, about our experience of life, full stop. So I just think that I don't know how many. What the.

[B]

What the.

[A]

Relate. What the ratio is, male to female, but I think that that that argument was misconstrued.

[B]

Okay, well, thank you for clarifying. But I definitely feel that I'm becoming more radical as I get older, more impatient.

[A]

I just get impatient with the. I'm just impatient with. Why has. Why are we still doing this? Why is this not. Why is there only. I mean, hopefully it's changed, but I read somewhere that there was. Of medical research goes into women's bodies. Yeah. I mean, it is extraordinary.

[B]

Extraordinary, Yes. I mean, this is.

[A]

Stuff like that.

[B]

Yes. It's deeply irritating. And that sense of shame that we were touching upon is so often internalized by women when they go through some sort of medical experience that is so underfunded and under researched. And in my personal experience, what I bring to that is the experience of miscarriage or infertility, which I went through, and there's so little money and research devoted to that. I mean, but I think you're completely right that it adds to this feeling that we have to be silent about what we go through.

[A]

Yeah, well, we haven't been very silent, thanks to people like Phoebe and thanks to women writing plays. You know, it all comes back to. We just need to be able to say more. Giselle Pellicot, what she did writing that book is fantastic. Thank you, Giselle, for writing that. You know, it takes a lot of guts to do that.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So, yeah, I mean. But I don't really think of myself as being, you know, a campaigner or anything like that. I just. Sometimes I just lose patience with it.

[B]

Your early performances, and this was one of the things that lazy journalists like me used to say were notable for their restraint. Do you think that that was a reaction to being too much in under the Cherry Moon? And I mean restraint in a good way?

[A]

No, I think I. No, I think that. I don't think it Was. It wasn't consciously that anyway, but it was just doing things the way I wanted them to. I wanted to do them and it seemed to work. So if I wanted to be restrained, I could be, and they seem to like it. So I'll go and be restrained again. I mean, lately my performances have got a lot more extravagant.

[B]

Are you enjoying Diana Tavener?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Why?

[A]

Well, you've watched it, haven't you?

[B]

Of course.

[A]

Well, there you go.

[B]

Well, part of what I value about Diana Tavener and Slow Horses is the lack of private life. We don't know that much about her.

[A]

Nothing at all.

[B]

So top secret, which is really important as playing a female character, to have

[A]

some sort of background.

[B]

No, it's actually important not to. In a way, it's a sort of privilege that has been afforded to male

[A]

characters that we don't care whether she's got, you know, six kids at home and has to go do the shopping and. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. No, it is. It's true. That is one thing I'd never thought of that. And I think you're quite right. It's a good point.

[B]

Oh, thank you.

[A]

Yeah, no, good.

[B]

Let's just end the interview there. Let's quit while we're ahead. Have you ever re watched under the Cherry Moon?

[A]

Well, only snippets of it, because it really does. But, you know, the soundtrack is amazing, the photography is amazing. Some bits are acting. You know, Francesca Anis is acting a sox off and she's brilliant. It's, you know, it is what it is. It was an 80s film in the period of Dynasty and the rest of it. And. And I'm very grateful for it, to be honest, because it taught me a lot. I mean, literally, I did not know you had to do the same thing twice. When they have a wide shot and a close shot. I didn't know it. I knew nothing. Nothing, nothing, nothing. There was one scene where I was being kissed and it was in a. I don't know where it was. Racetrack or something, lying on the ground and. And I had my hands by my side because it never happened to me before. I'm lying there waiting. And then the kiss happens and the script. Very nice. Script supervisor comes over to me, said, kristen, could you just move a bit? You look a bit stiff lying there waiting. Oh, bless.

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Compatibility and availability varies 18 plus. Let's get onto your second failure. It's a big one, I know, but thank you for talking about it, because so many people will get a lot from this, I think, and it's your failure to deal with grief as a young teenager.

[A]

Um, yes. Well, I think that that is a failure that needn't have been a failure, an unnecessary failure. It wasn't really me sabotaging anything. It was because there was, at the time, this was in the 1970s, there really wasn't any kind of pastoral care or There wasn't any therapy or anything like that, canceling. Call it what you like. And there I was, a small girl made, you know, orphaned. My father died when I was nearly. Well, I was five and a half. And then when I was 11, and I just started a new school, it happens again. And that was much more than anybody could really handle, I think, by themselves. And I know terrible things, believe me, I know. No one was doing it to me on purpose. It wasn't cruelty. It wasn't. It was just fate. So I know that it's. But everybody deals with their own stuff differently. But I wasn't able to get over that, really, for a very, very long time. And it needn't have been the case. So it wasn't genuinely my failure, I suppose. But I do wish that I'd been able to at least look at it as a young girl. And, in fact, I didn't really do anything about it until I was 30. And by then I had two children. And having children allowed me to see where I'd gone wrong and where I was beating myself up and where I was, you know, doing unnecessary sabotage and damaging, just because of this enormous sadness that had never been allowed out.

[B]

I'm so sorry you went through that.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Was there part of you as the eldest child, that felt a responsibility?

[A]

Oh, definitely, definitely. And that's what I try to put in the film. I try and get that across with the character played by Scarlet, the eldest sister, Catherine. This idea that I'm in charge and I have to make sure everyone's happy and everyone does the. And that was definitely, definitely because there were five of us. So I definitely felt a sort of stiff upper lip. Come on. And I think that's why I get this sort of bossy. I'm so good at being bossy, is because I had lots of practice, you know. Yeah, yeah. And now looking back at it as a human, I mean, not a human. Children are human. But as a grown up, I think, you know, I See myself as somebody else's child. You'd think, oh, God, poor little thing, somebody help her. But that wasn't available. And I think that not being. Having. I think the only thing that has been. I mean, one of the reasons. And I've said this before, so forgive me if it's not completely original thought, but I've. One of the reasons that I was good at playing these characters who are. Who have a sort of secret longing or secret sadness or a secret. A secret is that I was very good at holding it in, at not letting anybody. Don't cry in class. Don't do this, don't do that, don't keep it all back. Be the funniest in the room. Be this, you know, show off that actually I was able to connect and communicate a kind of inner sadness because I had this thing called a camera that wasn't going to judge me, that I could just sort of do it. So I'm afraid to say it came out.

[B]

Sorry. That's so beautiful. And I'm just thinking of your performance in the English Patient, which I rewatched this weekend.

[A]

God, it's good, isn't it?

[B]

Oh, my God, Chris. Such. So good. Such a good film. It's so good. I mean, Anthony Mingueller, I think, is such a genius. I love all of his films, but the way that you act that part is there's so much repression, but there's so much fire beneath the surface. And I think that that's nice.

[A]

Yeah, I haven't. I haven't watched it for a very long time. I haven't watched it in 10 years, but I know that it's. It still has an incredible effect on people, which is the proof of a good film, isn't it? And the role was so beautifully written. I mean, most of the successes that I've ever had is all down to the writing, to be honest. You know, anyone can say those lines and be brilliant. So it was. It was very, very, very good writing and good directing and good. Not bad. Partner, Acting partner.

[B]

I don't know what's become of him,

[A]

what he does. The other day I went to. I went to a rehearsal for an opera he was doing in Paris. And it's so wonderful to see your friends. He's my friend.

[B]

He's your friend?

[A]

He's my friend.

[B]

Oh, that makes me happy to see

[A]

your friends sort of suddenly take off in another direction. And watching him direct these singers and getting them to perform in a way that just brings chills to you. Unbelievable. So, anyway, I was Very happy about that. So what we're talking about, not Rafe.

[B]

No. Grief and the sort of cathartic process of the camera being non judgmental.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So I think that that served me well in, you know, it was useful. And I think, you know, there again, now I'm able to look at that and think, that isn't me just being indulgent or self indulgent or whatever. It's not, you know, nasty. It's actually great because a lot of people can see that, can empathize, can feel something, can. The whole point of cinema, if you want my opinion. I do, Is that you go into a. You buy a ticket, you go and you sit down and you share with a whole lot of other people you will never, probably never see again in your life. Or maybe two of them you will, or three of them, or one of them you might, but they're all strangers and you're all going to be going on this roller coaster together and some will sob and you can feel somebody sniffling in the next row round. And it's a safe place to go and have all those feelings. And I think that that is such a loss because we don't go to the cinema anymore.

[B]

I know. And I love the cinema so much.

[A]

It's so nice when you go with a load of people and the lights go down and the thing is about to begin and then people get cross because they're rustling their popcorn and then it stops because you're all watching the same thing and you're going through hell or you're going. You're the edge of your seat or you're ducking or whatever you're doing. It's just such an adventure.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I love that.

[B]

Is it annoying when people ask you about Fiona in Four Weddings and a Funeral?

[A]

No. What do you want to know?

[B]

Everything. What memories do you have of playing that part?

[A]

Oh, having to beg for it.

[B]

Did you?

[A]

Yes, yes. I'd met Hugh on a film called Bitter Moon that we made with Roman Polanski.

[B]

Hugh was in Hugh Grant.

[A]

Yeah. So we got on very well and he said, you should go up for this. It's a film I'm doing next. The way he is. Grump, grump, grump. And so I managed to get myself a copy and I thought, oh, I can definitely do this. And now I.

[B]

So.

[A]

Well, if you can come to England, we can give you an audition, but we're not sure. And so I had to do, like two auditions to get that role.

[B]

Well, thank goodness. Thank goodness you got it.

[A]

And such great hats.

[B]

The best hat.

[A]

I love a hat.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. That pink hat that you wore with the polka dots.

[A]

Yeah, polka dots, yes.

[B]

This is my tribute to you. I didn't bring the hat in, even though it is how to fail pink in so many ways.

[A]

Such a good thing.

[B]

And I suppose that highlights another thing that you bring to roles, which is this innate sense of style. How much have you enjoyed over the years playing with clothes?

[A]

It's the best thing because clothes are so important. When you're making a character, the first thing you do really is get the costume because they have to be made and it takes months. So you go in and you talk to the costume designer and they whip out some colors and have a look at it, and you stand there and you're in your knickers. I remember when we did the English Patient. The costume designer on that is a woman called Anne Roth, who's an absolute miracle. Anyway, she got me into the dressing room, said, right, take off your clothes. What do you mean? Just pants and bra. She made me stand on a box in the middle of this room. It was vaguely humiliating. In fact, it wasn't vaguely. It was utterly humiliating. But I didn't, you know, it's just the way things go. And she walked around me.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

I said, yep, it's the tush.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. Wow. Do you think of that sometimes when you need a little fillip?

[A]

Yeah, I need a little, like, you know, I think, well, you know, might work.

[B]

Have you ever got to keep anything, any.

[A]

Yes, loads of things. Do you have that jacket in the English Patient? No, that disappeared criminal. And the wonderful thing happened the other day. I say the other day. It wasn't the other day. It must have been a year or two years ago. I was wearing one of those great big coats they give you to keep you warm. And I put my hand in my pocket and there's a piece of paper in it. I pull it out and it's the sides from the English Patient.

[B]

The sides.

[A]

The sides. Okay. Sides are a piece of paper that you get with your words for the day on it.

[B]

Huh? From the English face. Wow.

[A]

I don't know it was my coat or not, but it was in there.

[B]

What have you done with them? Did you take.

[A]

Oh, I just chucked them out.

[B]

But what. Guys, stop it. You're so one sentimental.

[A]

Isn't that amazing?

[B]

That's incredible. Back to this failure and that repressed grief that you carried for so many years. And then you said, the turning point was when you had children and you

[A]

went to psychoanalysts, the turning point was when I had children. Cause I just didn't want to pass it on. Because I think it's a duty as a parent to get your stuff sorted out before you start bringing them up. In fact, before you start thinking about having them, really. But. So I wanted to do that. And yeah, I went into psychoanalysis quite seriously for about six, seven years. And then she died.

[B]

Oh, God.

[A]

I had to find another one.

[B]

I'm sorry. That's awful for someone with, I imagine, a fear of abandonment.

[A]

Yeah, it was quite. It was quite difficult.

[B]

Was that in French that you did psychoanalysis?

[A]

No, it's in English. Bazaar English speaking. An American woman in. Well, actually two American women in Paris.

[B]

How do you feel now about your fathers? Are you able, in a way to connect with them without the obfuscation of a kind of unexamined grief? If that makes sense.

[A]

It's such a funny thing. I mean that the thing in the film is really quite sort of on it. That's on the money. That thing about what she says to her children when they've got to get over the fact that their father has died. I see my father. My father was what, 36, I think, when he died. I remember him as a sort of beautiful young man. Daddy. Who I was madly in love with because I was five. But actually now he'd be 80 something. Quite old, very old. And my stepfather, I knew less because I was away at boarding school when my stepfather was around. But, you know, he brought us all up. So I just feel admiration for him, admiration and gratitude towards him. And, you know, I'm pretty amazed that someone would marry a woman with four children. Small. The smallest was only like 18 months when they were married because Mommy was pregnant when she. She was widowed. But the. So I feel admiration, gratitude for that man and just a sense of. I don't know what the word is, but I. Half of my. Half of me is my dad. So he's here, wherever he is. Yes, he's this.

[B]

Yes, yes. And your mother, Tell me about her. She sounds completely.

[A]

My mother was extraordinary because she was. It's so weird to talk about her as was. She died four years ago. I'm so strange. Really is a thing, your mother dying. It's a huge thing. And of course, because I'd been used to father's dying and I've kind of grown up with it and got over it and as I said, kept going, grieving for my mother was just like being run over By a tank. I just could not, because now I'd got over all those things and I'd accepted the fact that one is able to grieve and all this, and so that was a massive shock. But she was such. She was an extraordinary person. She was so brave and so unprepared. I mean, how do you do that? You're 26 or 27, you're widowed, you've got three little girls, you've got another one on the way. That's bad enough. I mean, how you get over that, I just don't know. And she was on her own. Her parents didn't live in the same country. She was all on her own and she'd given up. She'd wanted to be an actress. My mum, she'd gone to Lambda. And then she met my dad and they fell madly in love. And in those days, you know, that's what you did. You got married and had children. And so she followed him down to Cornwall where he was based, and then he went off to sea and she was stuck in this tiny little house with pregnant, and then with me and then with another one. And then she managed to once. And then she really came into her own when my stepfather was killed, because I think that did mess her up quite a lot. I think I remember her being massively, massively, massively depressed and just never really leaving her room and being really. And not eating, you know, and other. It was amazing how people came in, you know, friends of hers, and how they all rallied round and looked after her. It was amazing. But we were both at school at that time, so I didn't see much of that, but. And then she sort of. I don't know, something happened and she just said, I've got to live everything. And she took us. She took us to Cyprus for the whole of the Christmas summer holidays. Somebody lent her a house. She managed to blag her way to getting tickets to Cyprus on a flight run by the RAF for, you know, service families, because you did in those days, you got pretty swiftly cut off. Anyway, she managed to do that. And we were out there for six weeks. We had an absolutely fantastic time. She'd already learned Greek because she thought she ought to learn some Greek before she took us there. And we whizzed around in a mini moke and had, you know, six weeks in this country that we. That the following year was in civil war. But it was pretty brave and she just never stopped doing things like that.

[B]

And when you went through this period of unraveling your own Knots how you felt in your 30s. Did you speak to your mother after that about what she'd gone through?

[A]

No, I'm afraid to say I didn't. I spoke to. It was a sort of non subject. You couldn't talk. She was from a very different generation. She got through it by not getting through it by just not going there. And so I knew that opening that door would be very difficult for her. And so, I mean, you know, during my therapy I talked about me non stop.

[B]

If you had any advice for someone who is going through the ravages of grief right now, what would you say to them?

[A]

God. Well, there's a very hackneyed phrase which is, you know, time is a great healer. Well, that's absolutely true. I think people who've lost parents. The thing that's really helped me is what I was saying earlier about being, you know, I am the result, I am part of that person is me. That's really, really helped me, particularly with my father and my mother. Wow, what an amazing woman. And I. I really miss her. I don't miss my mother. I mean, I've sort of got over missing my mother, but missing the woman. Deborah.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, she was great. She was such fun, you know, she was great. I often find myself wishing, I do like Instagram, wishing I could send her a, you know, a funny video or something. I love all that. And every time I get into the car to go to the market on Saturday, I think, oh, just call Mum. No, you won't. Still, four years ago she died, so it is a thing, but it just gets. It does get less and less and less painful.

[B]

Do you have a belief in an afterlife? Does any of that Catholic faith still reside in you?

[A]

I'm still wrestling with all of that. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. So it's pretty wavering. I'm not sure about afterlife, but I do think that there are. Yeah, I'm not sure I believe in. I'm not going to say what I believe in because I'm not even sure I believe it. But there are nice thoughts to be had that are reassuring about. Spirits, souls.

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[A]

Grab that boho.

[B]

Look for that rooftop dinner, those sandals that can keep up with you. And hang some string lights to give your patio a glow up.

[A]

Spring's calling. Ross.

[B]

Work your magic. Your final failure. There's no seamless link, Kristen.

[A]

I know. I'm sorry about that.

[B]

No, it was brilliant because I knew nothing. I knew nothing. I still know nothing. There's very little context for this, but your final failure is being a football supporter.

[A]

I'm rubbish.

[B]

But as in your rubber, you don't support football.

[A]

I think I bring them bad luck.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It's not a support I don't think I support. I think I'm maybe solely responsible for their decline. No, because what happened was that in 2015, I read an article about how Leicester had come up and won the Premier League. I think it was.

[B]

I remember that. Yes.

[A]

And it was at the same time as finding Richard iii, which I'm obsessed

[B]

with that whole story.

[A]

There's a wonderful article in the Guardian about how the Leicester was really, you know, amazing. I loved this idea of this little city winning. The thing, you know, it's the David and Glyre thing. I loved it, loved it, loved it. And became a little bit more curious about football and started to watch the World cup and stuff like that. In 2019, I meet a very lovely man who says he's very interested in football. I hadn't quite figured out how interested in football. But anyway, very interested in football. And that he supports a team that are doing really well. It's called Leicester City. And I knew all about Leicester City because I'd read up about it.

[B]

Aw.

[A]

And so he took me to a couple of games and I missed the Wembley because I gave the ticket to his son, because I knew that his son would appreciate it more. I understood so much. I understood why they have mad haircuts, because then you can see them. Never realized that I hadn't either. It suddenly occurred to me. But then I got into trouble because I thought that the Arsenal goalkeeper was our goalkeeper. Because they Both had blonde hair and they were both very tall. Schmeichel, his name was, anyway. Might not have been Arsenal, I can't remember. But so now I've been to games and it's fun and. But I obviously, you know, do them no good at all.

[B]

Is the lovely man now your husband? Yes. Okay, great. Okay, so that's good. That's one good thing that's come out of it. Do you enjoy watching football?

[A]

I do, yeah. I do. Not as much as I enjoy watching rugby.

[B]

I have to say, I also wonder on this whether there's something quintessentially British about definitely rugby. And because you have this duality to you, the Frenchness and the Britishness.

[A]

Oh, but watching the France play England, oh, it's agony.

[B]

Yes. Who do you support?

[A]

Well, I normally do. You know what? I don't, but that's the thing about rugby is that you find that you don't really. They'll probably be slaughtered for saying this, but you don't really support anyone because it's such a wonderful game to watch. You, You. You're just, you know, whoever wins the point is brilliant, you know.

[B]

How French or British are you feeling right now in this phase of your life?

[A]

I'm about to go back to Paris for a bit, but I suppose I feel, oh, it's the most. It's the hardest question in the world that. Because I really don't know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, when I was in France, everyone said, oh, a little, you know, oh, she's very French, you know, and it's just. I just don't. I don't know.

[B]

And how are you feeling now in your 60s with this extraordinary career? It feels to me as an outsider that you are only just getting started, that there's this energy and vitality and joy that you're bringing to what you're doing now. Does that feel accurate? Does it feel accurate to you?

[A]

It certainly. I certainly enjoy things more. I'm able to enjoy things more. I'm allowed to enjoy things more now. And I'm not quite sure what that is to do with, whether that is just maturity or what it is, but I feel much more and brave enough to try things out and brave enough to. To accept things and brave enough to sort of do new things.

[B]

It's been such a pleasure talking to you.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Thank you so much for trusting me and for coming on how to Fail.

[A]

A pleasure.

[B]

Thank you so much for listening and watching. This episode has been brought to you by Dove Whole Body Deodorant. Please do follow how to fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends this is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Your call has been forwarded to voicemail.

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Hi, this is Zoe Deutch and Nick Robinson. Our brand new movie Voicemails for Isabel is all about those little moments that feel like the universe is looking out, feeling homesick. Then your sister calls, hearing that perfect song exactly when you need it. Please stop. Sometimes life rigs things in our favor,

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