← How To Fail With Elizabeth Day
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- [00:00]
Elizabeth Day
Hello and welcome to how to Fail. This is the podcast that believes a fail is simply a first attempt in learning. Before we get onto this episode, please do remember to like subscribe and follow so that you never miss a single conversation.
- [00:15]
Mo Gilligan
But it was only until probably I think I left school at like 16. I was like, oh, this thing is called dyslexia. I find it hard to listen to praise about myself. I find it very, very hard.
- [00:28]
Elizabeth Day
How bad did it get this debt spiral? Hello, this is Elizabeth Day from the how to Fail podcast. I wanted to share something I'm genuinely excited about. One of my favorite UK wellness brands, Ancient and Brave, has just launched in the us. I've used two of their products in my daily routine and they've made a tangible difference. The first is True Creatine plus. With added taurine, vitamin D and Magnes. It supports physical performance, energy and cognitive function. It's easy to take at home or on the go, whether I'm working out or not. I also use their clinically studied True Collagen, a pure, potent and powerful staple that supports skin elasticity and hydration as well as whole body health. It's EU sourced, so free from growth hormones or antibiotics, plus it's neutral in taste and dissolves effortlessly into coffee or smoothies or a cup of tea. I would say that as a Brit, wouldn't I? Ancient and Brave are proud members of 1% for the planet, meaning that 1% of their sales go to environmental causes, wellness that feels good and does good too. Go to ancientandbrave.com planet and use the code howtofail. That's howtofail. No spaces or one word for $10 off any purchase. Masterclass is the streaming platform that makes it possible for anyone to watch or listen to hundreds of video lessons taught by more than 200 the world's best. Whether it be in business and leadership, photography, cooking, acting, music, sports and more, Masterclass delivers a world class online learning experience. The classes that excited me the most were the ones on writing, so there's a session with actual Malcolm Gladwell, author of Blink and the Tipping point. He's done 24 classes on how to find, research and write stories that capture big ideas and it's totally inspiring. I love that you can turn your commute or workout into a classroom with audio mode so you can listen to a Masterclass lesson anytime, anywhere. Right now, our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual membership@masterclass.com fail. That's 15% off@masterclass.com fail. Masterclass.com fail. My guest today was born in Lambeth, South London. His parents separated when he was five and he and his two older sisters were primarily raised on a council estate by his mum. He struggled at school, but found refuge in drama and making his classmates laugh. When he started taking his comedy online, uploading satirical sketches of London geezers and British MCs to Snapchat and Instagram, the they went viral and Mo Gilligan's career path was set. Soon he was performing, set out stand up tours and by 2018 had migrated onto television with Channel 4's late night entertainment show the Big Nasty. In 2019, he fronted his own format, the Latest show with Mo Gilligan, which won him the first of three baftas. He was so chuffed, he named his Cockapoo Baffy. Netflix specials followed, as did world tours, primetime TV and a podcast. Now in 2026, Gilligan is launching the biggest year of his career to date with a global tour, a major new partnership with Netflix and a feature documentary which will offer a glimpse behind the scenes of the 37 year old who cites his comedy heroes as Dave Chappelle and Lee Evans. It's not bad for someone still three years shy of his 40th birthday and for whom success was never guaranteed. Just 10 years ago, Gilligan was broke and grappling with credit card debt, taking every retail job he could just to make ends meet. I always worked in retail, Primark, the Apple Store, Reese, he recalls. It's all about how you sell the product to them. When you do stand up, it's like selling a piece of clothing, except that you're selling yourself. Mo Gilligan, welcome to how to Fail.
- [04:50]
Mo Gilligan
Oh wow, that was so nice. Hearing it all back and I was like, oh wow, like I've done all that stuff and that is me. Because it's quite easy to forget a little bit.
- [04:58]
Elizabeth Day
You were able to reflect.
- [05:00]
Mo Gilligan
Yeah, I really appreciate that. Thank you.
- [05:01]
Elizabeth Day
Oh, well, thank you for being so appreciative. Well, it's interesting that, because reflection is something that you struggle with and it pertains to one of your failures. But we'll come on to that later.
- [05:14]
Mo Gilligan
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [05:14]
Elizabeth Day
I wanted to start with you selling yourself. So if you're an item of clothing in Reese, how are you going to sell yourself to me? What is it that makes Mo Gilligan Mo Gilligan?
- [05:29]
Mo Gilligan
I think it's a combination of things. I feel like you need a bit of charisma. I think charisma is definitely the thing that gets people's attention. I feel like you can make anything can add a bit of charisma and a bit of jazz to whether it is a black suit, but you make it look cool with a black shirt and you open up the tie and you do a black pocket square. So already you're like, oh, this is all black. But I see these little details in it and I feel like that's what I've always tried to add to whatever I try to do. Do you know what I mean? Like, when it comes to comedy, I want to make people laugh, but I also love a bit of music. I'm not a musician, but I want to add that little jazz to it just to make something so simple just seem so seamless and quite fun. Transparency. I feel like when I worked in retail, the more I was transparent with a customer, the more they would buy. And I think that's how people buy into you, you know, the more trans. You know, I'd have customers in some of the places I worked at and they'd say, I really want to get this item. I'd be like, listen, I'll be honest, man, this one's basically the same. You know, it's half the price. And they sit there and go, what, are you serious? Like, you shouldn't say that. And I'm like, yeah, but I'm just here to. I'm here to give you what you've come in for. And that's just customer service. That's all I do. And I think it's the same with my stand up. I've always tried to be transparent with my audience when I'm on stage. You know, when I talk about my special, I talk about going to la, and I was like, whoa, I'm in la, here I am. But then quickly you're like, I don't know if I can fit into this mold. I don't know if I'm cool enough. Because you have to be very cool and there's the parties and you have to be great at networking and going to something. And yes, I'm great on stage when it comes to my craft and writing material. But telling me to go in a room and go and network with everyone by force, I can't do that. I just want to just talk to people. Hey, what's up? What'd you do? Hey, how you finding the event? So I think transparency is always in there. And then lastly, I guess it's just, I guess it's just old fashioned charm. It's the smallest thing. I learned it actually, weirdly, when I worked in Jo Malone. Jo Malone when we used to sell a product, they used to put this tissue paper in and spritz it. And it was like, so jazzy. But you put it in and you tie the bow. And customers would be like, why'd you do that? And was like, so when you. And so what we do is, let's say they bought a candle which is like lime, basil, mandarin. So you'd get that scent and you spray it on the. On there. You put it in a bag, you stuff it and put a bow on it. And then customers say, why do you. Why do you spritz it with that? Is that because when you open it, you know what it smells like straight away? And that. Things like that used to make me sit and go, wow, that's so charming. That's so nice to do for a customer. You don't have to. But those little things I always wanted to implement just within myself. But also what I do on stage have a bit of charmer. I have this segment when I jump on the stage and I ask people where they're from, and I say, I need single guys. Cause single guys don't ever make noise. And there's always one guy who goes, yeah. I'm like, oh, who are you? What's your name? And I talk to him and I say, listen, I hope you enjoy the rest of your show. And throughout the rest of the show, like, all the drinks are on me tonight. So it's about making someone feel really cool and special in that moment. Because I think the audience see it as like, oh, he's going to get him, he's going to get him. But it's kind of. It's like a uno reverse. He's like, I am going to get him, but I'm going to make him feel like the coolest person in the room. And it goes back to retail, like, selling yourself. You've bought this item and now you feel like a million dollars. Hopefully you'll then go back and tell your friends and say, oh, man, I met this guy. And, you know, he said to put the pocket square and open the button. Oh, he's just mad cool. And I think it's that I learned a lot of that, I'd probably say, in retail as well.
- [09:29]
Elizabeth Day
That is such an amazing answer. It was like you had.
- [09:33]
Mo Gilligan
Sorry, it was a bit long. Was it a bit long?
- [09:34]
Elizabeth Day
You know, it's amazing because when I was thinking of what my first question was going to be, I was like, that's quite a tough one. You just nailed it. But that reminds me of Something that I read that you said about performing comedy to the black community. And I think you were asked a question about whether you sort of poke jabs at the audience and you said, no, no, no, because my community, they get dressed up nice to come out and I would never disrespect them like that. I thought that was so interesting.
- [10:03]
Mo Gilligan
Oh, yeah. I think my audience are predominantly a working class audience. I know they're the audience who wait a long time to come to shows. They are like, I've got a babysitter, you know, Shanice got her nails done, Tyron got his hair cut and we've planned to come to this event. We even got a meal before. I feel like I'll be doing that audience a disservice, going out there and being like, hey, like, let me get you, let me get you, let me get you, let me get you. Because that's just never where I've found my joy on stage. Don't get me wrong, there's sometimes I've, I've done this, this craft and there is someone who says something and I'm like, well, I've got to say something back. It's just the art of stand up. It's the, it's the, it goes back to the old fashioned. Like, you know, you're the, the, the, the, the jester performing to the king a little bit. You know, if your audience see that you can't handle the pressure, if someone says something, then it's like shoop off of your head. So I have to really prove to you and say, oh, no, no, no, this still a boundary here. But also I really want to make people feel cool. I think it's the nicest feeling ever. As opposed to like, ah, well, if he's gonna get you, he might get us, so let's not look at him. So I've always shied away from being a comedian that just wants to poke fun at my audience.
- [11:31]
Elizabeth Day
Let's talk about where your comedy started because it brings us to your first failure.
- [11:36]
Mo Gilligan
Yeah.
- [11:37]
Elizabeth Day
Which is dyslexia. But specifically asking for help in school because you didn't realize that's what you had. And that sort of, my understanding, is what led you into wanting to make people laugh.
- [11:52]
Mo Gilligan
Yeah, yeah.
- [11:53]
Elizabeth Day
Tell us about school. First of all, I'm so excited I get to speak to you because I live in Lambeth and I've also interviewed Ashley Walters, who I know is sort of is part of your story. So tell us about school and what that was like for you.
- [12:07]
Mo Gilligan
School was great. I Went to a really good primary school, which is Dog Kennel Hill. So diverse. Like, when I think of it now, I grew up with kids of all backgrounds, faiths, religions, and it helped because my mum worked there as well.
- [12:21]
Elizabeth Day
So what did she do?
- [12:22]
Mo Gilligan
So my mum was a teaching assistant, but all the kids would come up to me and be like, oh, yeah, your mom's so cool, man. And the older kids would be like, hey, hey, you're right. Oh, yeah, yeah, I know your mom's cool, man. And that was like a. Oh, wow, man. Like, people really like that, you know, On a Saturday, people would see my mum and just want to say hi. You know, the kids would be like, hi, Hello. Yeah, hello, Mrs. Gilligan. And I'll be like, yeah, that's. That's my mom. Like, I definitely had learning difficulties at that time as well. I didn't really know. I did. I used to just talk. And it's probably. Until I probably got about. I'd say about eight, nine, when the teacher then would say, yeah, you've got to sit on this table. And everyone else on the table had learning difficulties. I think that was the first time I really knew, like, I knew that I kind of needed help. And then as I got a little bit older, I would then sit with a helper who sits with us. He would sit with us and all the other children needed help. And that was like my first indication of like, oh, I want to. I want to be on that table. Them lot of doing the work by themselves, but we're kind of. We. We kind of have like a child minder on our table a little bit. But I'd always give credit to a primary school teacher that I had called Ms. Styatt. She had a son who had a disability, so when it came to dyslexia, she was great at having learning and teaching methods that was different I'd never seen before. It was incorporating colors. And I always remember she used to tell these really. We'd have this story time. And I think that was the beginning of my, like, creativity because it was towards, you know, we'd have this. It was called silent reading. And it was like, okay, silent reading, everyone must. And I was, I want to talk, man. I want to, like, tell this Biff Chipping Kipper story to someone I'm sitting next to. But I never forget she used to do this thing towards the end of the lesson and she told me she'd read a book and she'd tell a story and it was great because I started learning about. So Many books, but it was the way she would act out the characters and the imagination that for me as a kid was like, oh, this is really cool. There is a book called. It might be called the Railway Children, I think, and I remember her telling us that book. But she would act out the voices and everything. And I was like, wow, this is so insightful the way that you're turning this into a thing. And it's interesting how once I'd got to secondary school, you get a little bit more freedom now. And I've got some new friends. I think early on I then got to. It's like, well, I've got art. I do like a bit art, but I like talking and I like having a laugh with my friend Troy that I sit next to. And Troy is quite like me. That freedom mixed with the stories of like a Ms. Diet who tells these vivid. Imagine these stories from a book, you bring that together and it was this me wanting to entertain people where I can talk and I can. And I think that's where the neglect of not wanting to learn subjects I just wasn't interested in. I think anything I was interested in, I was really. I was there for it.
- [15:39]
Elizabeth Day
Did you know you had dyslexia then?
- [15:41]
Mo Gilligan
No. So I only really knew what dyslexia was once I'd left school. And I was like, ah, there's a thing for this. Because other than that, we just. It was just called learning difficulties. So I used to go to this place in my school which was for kids who had learning difficulties. But it was also this hub where if you got sent out, you could go in there and be like, oh, Miss I got sent out. They'd be like, oh, it's all right, you can go on the. Go on a computer. So it was that. All right. So sometimes you'd be like, I don't really want to learn French man. Because it was a lot of the teaching assistants who was in. Who was in this learning center was like his own room and they were so chill. It just felt like you was in this room and it was just like all your mum's friends, you'd be like, you're right, Mo, how are you? Oh, man, I got kicked out of French man. It's all right. Go on Google if you want. Really? And you just go on Google images and type like, type, type Lamborghinis like. And then you'd be in there with all the other kids that clearly had learning difficulties. And some of them might show it with being disruptive in class. You might Be talking. You might be a student who, you know, was going through something, but a lot of the teachers didn't have the patience. So they said, listen, get out. And we'd all just end up there in this hub of. But it was only until probably, I think I left school at like 16. I was like, oh, this thing is called dyslexia. I didn't know that when I was 14.
- [17:11]
Elizabeth Day
The reason that I mentioned Ashley Walters is because you were at Pimlico Academy.
- [17:15]
Mo Gilligan
Yeah, he went to my school and
- [17:16]
Elizabeth Day
that's where he went to.
- [17:17]
Mo Gilligan
Yeah, yeah.
- [17:18]
Elizabeth Day
And you both had the same drama teacher.
- [17:20]
Mo Gilligan
That's right, yeah. Ms. Simpson. Yeah.
- [17:22]
Elizabeth Day
Tell us about Ms. Simpson and the impact she had on you.
- [17:24]
Mo Gilligan
Oh, Ms. Simpson is incredible. She is a drama teacher who felt like she knew the students. Like, and I'm not saying that the other teachers didn't because there's some other great teachers in the school. Mr. Fern, he was our form tutor, art teacher, Matt, he was just like mad cool, just like so relaxed. But Ms. Simpson was different because it felt like she knew the kids environments and she knew what they could excel in and she wouldn't force the kids who didn't want to do the lessons to do it. It was like, oh, like if you don't want to do drama, that's okay, but maybe you could help of setting up a scene. How about that? And that's showing a child that like, hey, you know, you're directing but they don't know that. You don't know that when you're 13, 14. She always would just give everyone a job. And it was the first teacher that really like planted a seed in me at a really young age and she held me back. We had performed in our, in our, in our hall for one lesson. I used to love doing any of the plays where I could be like a character. One of my early inspirations was Robin Williams. I thought Robin Williams with like voices and impressions and Jim Carrey. They were like my two favorites. And I'd probably say Eddie Murphy. And I used to love doing anything that was like a character or, you know, especially because we got to get the mats out. So if there was that time to get the mats out, it was like, all right, so you're going to hit me and I'm just going to fall and that's, that's going to be the thing that I get to do. Everyone got to leave in this one lesson. It was like, okay, cool, guys, go to lunch. And she said, oh, wait, I want to speak to you. And I thought, I'm in trouble. And she said, look, Mo, you're about to choose your subjects for GCSE and I think you should really look at choosing drama. And I was like, oh. Said, I really like drama. And she's like, yeah, you know, you're very, very good at it. But also like, I feel like you have something with this and you should look at pursuing it. And that was the first teacher that had told me, like, and said, you're really good at this. And that moment has never left me. I remember it very vividly. I was. I really liked it. I was just buzzing. I'll never forget it. And, yeah, she's the reason why I am in the place where I am right now, because I'd never had anyone tell me that before.
- [19:48]
Elizabeth Day
You were good at something.
- [19:49]
Mo Gilligan
It definitely changed my life because it was a point in my life where I was. Wasn't. Wasn't good at maths, wasn't good at English, didn't have the confidence of a child when it came to education where I felt like, oh, I'm smart. I didn't. I've always felt like I'm quite bright and I was all switched on. But at that age, I never felt like, oh, I'm. I'm like a smart kid too, you know, it was like, you're either academically smart or other. That was like the first moment of feeling like, oh, I belong. I don't have to just be book smart.
- [20:28]
Elizabeth Day
Teachers can be superheroes and I think it's so special that you've paid tribute to two of them there. You know those times late at night when you're scrolling and you see something online that you've been looking for and you just need to buy it right there and then you click on the link, you add it to cart before hitting checkout. But then that sinking feeling as you realise you don't have your card anywhere near and don't want to get out of bed. But that's when you see it. That purple pay button that has all of your information saved, making checking out as simple as a quick tap of your screen. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and has so many benefits. You can set up your own design studio, use Shopify's AI tools that write product descriptions and even enhance your product photography. You can get the word out like you have a marketing team behind you, easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling. See fewer carts go abandoned and more sales go. Sign up for your 1 pound per month trial today at shopify.co.uk fail. Go to shopify.co.uk fail. Are you dreaming of the perfect prom? But there's just one thing holding you back.
- [21:53]
Mo Gilligan
Speak English, Mom.
- [21:54]
Elizabeth Day
Welcome to Ethnosync Ethnic Modification.
- [21:57]
Mo Gilligan
What is this place? We help you reach your true potential. How are you feeling?
- [22:04]
Elizabeth Day
It's good to be Hawaii.
- [22:06]
Mo Gilligan
Hey, new girl.
- [22:07]
Elizabeth Day
Hey.
- [22:08]
Podcast Advertiser/Host
Look at what you've done to yourself.
- [22:09]
Mo Gilligan
For a new plant to grow, the seed has to die.
- [22:13]
Elizabeth Day
Slanted Rated R. Only in theaters March 13th. Side effects may occur.
- [22:17]
Mo Gilligan
I'm Craig Melvin. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. I've always been a glass half full kind of guy, and now I'm talking to some people who look at the world that way too. Some really fascinating folks who shared their defining moments, their triumphs, their challenges. Their stories are funny and quite candid. So I hope you'll join me each week. And who knows, you might just come away with your own Glass Half Full. Search Glass Half Full with Craig Melton From Today on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.
- [22:47]
Elizabeth Day
I'm also interested in your parents.
- [22:51]
Mo Gilligan
Yeah.
- [22:51]
Elizabeth Day
And your childhood away from school. We started off this conversation talking about charm and you chatted about your mum. But it sounds like your dad was very charming too.
- [23:02]
Mo Gilligan
Yeah, my dad is very smart. He's a very smart man. Like, I'm talking about book knowledge smart. He's very confident. But also, like, I think when it comes to, like, things like fitness, I always get that from my dad. Cause he used to do a lot of long distance running. And people would just see my dad in, around, like southeast or southwest London because he'd wrap up his locks, he'd put on like a Nike tracksuit. And I say, yeah, tracksuit. And you're talking like 25, 30 degree heat. And you just see him running in south London and people like, yeah, I see your dad. I see a dad. I see a dad running. Yeah. But I definitely think I get my charm from my mum more so because my mum was very like, my mom is very charismatic where my mum kind of talks to people like she knows them.
- [23:55]
Elizabeth Day
It sounds like a childhood safe in the knowledge that you were loved.
- [24:01]
Mo Gilligan
Yeah, but was it? Yeah, yeah.
- [24:02]
Elizabeth Day
Was it safe in other ways?
- [24:04]
Mo Gilligan
Yeah, Like I was. I lived in an area where everyone was kind of in the same environment. So a lot of working class families on a big council estate and you had a lot of other council estates just next to it, basically, and in and around the area. And yeah, everyone kind of looked out for each other.
- [24:25]
Elizabeth Day
And what is Fatherhood, like, for you
- [24:27]
Mo Gilligan
now, fatherhood is great. Fatherhood is so, like, it's the. The one part of life I never knew about. Until you experience it, no one can tell you. You can't learn it in a book. It is experiencing it in real time. I think knowing that I am my children's universe, like, they learn from me, they see it from me.
- [24:52]
Elizabeth Day
That's beautiful.
- [24:53]
Mo Gilligan
When they grow up, it's whatever I tell them and they experience that they're only going to see from me. And I think that is such a gift that I didn't know I needed to have. And. And it's interesting with, like, my children where, you know, my daughter, she's so young. She's like six months. But, like, congratulations. Oh, thank you. Like, her thing is just touching my beard. And there used to be a time where I'd be like, oh, okay, cool, I got comb. And now I'm just. I just don't care. Just like, she just wants to just touch it until she can grab it. That's all she wants to do. And it realized. You're like, well, this is what this is for. For her to just touch daddy's beard. Do you know what I mean? And, like, my. My son is. He just turned 2 and he's at an age where, like, he's kind of, you know, he's talking and stuff, but, you know, went to take him to get his haircut for the first time last week. And I, you know, the barbershop is a place that I spent many Saturdays where my mum would do a shop and leave me there. And I'm like, I'm here with all the grown folk and taking my son to get his hair cut. And even before going in the shop, he was like, oh, no, I'm scared. I scared. I'm like, oh, okay. So just sitting with him and seeing him experiencing, you know, the barbershop, essentially, which is a hub for, you know, the black male community, where as a child you hear conversations that you're like, oh, wow, these are some grown conversations. But everyone gets treated the same. Once you're in the chair, you can be an elderly man, still get a haircut. You can be a young kid, you still get your haircut. And seeing him scared, but also knowing he just, you know, grabbed onto me and I'm his universe. I'm bringing him into my universe. So he's experiencing this in real time. And it's just those little, like, gifts of life that you sit there and you go, wow, this is. This is an exciting Moment in, you know, you get to see, experience it. I don't know. For me, it's like an out of body experience. If you ever watch a, like a wildlife documentary, you see the elephant going to the water, to the waterhole for the first time and it gets stuck and it's like, it's all right because the mum elephant or the dad elephant knows how to get it out, but this elephant doesn't know yet. And it's like that elephant, it's, it's. This is the universe and I'm going to show you how to do this and you'll learn in real time so the next time it happens. And I think that's what I really enjoy about fatherhood at the moment. I really, really, really enjoy that.
- [27:25]
Elizabeth Day
That's lovely.
- [27:26]
Mo Gilligan
Oh, thank you.
- [27:27]
Elizabeth Day
That really is. It's very moving. Your second failure is not learning about money as a teenager and where that led you to. So tell us about this Mo. Sorry for the, for the seamless link from the beauty of fatherhood to credit card debt. So you Left school at 16?
- [27:50]
Mo Gilligan
Yeah.
- [27:51]
Elizabeth Day
And was it after that that you started getting into money trouble?
- [27:54]
Mo Gilligan
No, I think at 16 I'd, I'd stayed at school, I went to sixth form, which was great, sixth form. We had this thing called EMA. So you get a little bit of money, 30 pound every week. And then college. And then once I'd left college, it was probably university that I'd get this, you know, get the student loan. And I think because I stayed at home when I was at uni, I think if I would have got the experience of being on the campus and having to understand that I need a bit of money for my books and a bit of money to maybe go out and have a drink. And this is what it's like to be broke. I had the comfort of being at home. So when I got my student loan, I come from a mentality of being, I wouldn't say addicted, but it's definitely those shiny things that you are drawn into. It's like a magpie mentality of like, oh, I need that, that's shiny and that's those materialistic things that you grow up never getting. But the minute you get money, that's the first thing you, you, you go straight to that. And that started when I was probably in uni because the minute I got my student loan, the first day I got it, me and a friend of mine, Steven, we went shopping. That was the first thing we. Oh, my God. We got our money straight to Oxford Street. We went to every shop you could think of. And I just have in bags of bags. And, you know, like, now I'm at a place where if I ever get a lot of stuff and I go to a shop, I'm like, just chuck this all in one bag. Also, most of the time I'm like, let's just get this all online anyway. But this was at a time where I was like, I've got a French Connection bag, I've got H and M bag. Do you know what I mean? I got J.D. sports, I got. And I'm walking around. Yeah, it was just like fulfilling the things I couldn't have as a. As a child of like, I want those Air Max nights. I want to go in the shop and not really look at the price because I can just get that thing. And I think. I wouldn't say it started from there, but the money management was definitely the origin story from that point. I'd probably say. I think being in the job of stand up didn't help because when you first start, you get paid cash in hand, which is amazing when you first tell a joke and a promoter says, oh, great, thanks a lot, man, there's 50 pounds. And you said, oh, my God, I've just earned this money in my hand from telling some material. But because the job is so volatile where in your head you're being told you're going to get paid £200, and the day before the show the promoter says, we didn't sell enough tickets, shows cancelled. And now you're like, oh, I kind of got a phone contract out, though, and I kind of needed that money and there's nothing you can do. You can't. There's no, there's no union. You just say, all right, all right, can you get in for the next one? When you've got to go to a show and you are in the middle section, you're only going to get paid £100 and £50 of that is going to be on a train ticket. The other 50 pounds is for that phone bill for the last month that you was meant to get. But now you're. You're behind. So I think the art form that I chose also doesn't help. For money management, you can definitely go down a bit of a kind of black hole. So, yeah, you then get a credit card. Yeah. And that just feels like free money. But you're like, it's not free because I should use this credit card for the emergencies of. You know, I didn't get that gig where I was gonna get £200, use a credit card, pay the phone bill. But again, it's like, well, didn't do that gig, use a credit card. Can now get some trainers and pay the phone bill and worry about the rest later. And then I think you just end up playing catch up.
- [31:40]
Elizabeth Day
Also, I think because the career that you had chosen, I'm imagining there were very few role models that you could reach for and think, oh, well, that's how they did it. I mean, I, I don't know how many stand up comics you actually knew.
- [31:56]
Mo Gilligan
Yeah, there wasn't anyone. That's a great point. Actually. I think stand up is this, this illusion where you just, you see on stage and that's it. There isn't. It's only now probably the last 10 years that it's documented how much, you know, some of the top 10 comedians earn. But I think it's always kind of communities don't really talk about that. You know, they're not trying to be the 20 million pound. Sorry, 20 million a movie?
- [32:25]
Elizabeth Day
Yeah.
- [32:26]
Mo Gilligan
You know, an actor. That's not something that's spoken about within the depths of comedy. It's like, no, your job is to be funny. Also, you have to dress down as a comic. I was also told that it was like, no, no, no, don't dress up. You've got to give the appearance to your audience that, you know, you can't be too flashy. But then I also had the black circuit where I came from, where it was like, no, you kind of have to be a bit flashy because you can't be raggedy. Yeah, like you, you have to like, you know. So I had, you know, comics telling me, yeah, you want to wear a shirt and like some, some shoes. So then you're like, all right, I've got up my game. I gotta buy some shoes, get a shirt for my performance, some nice jeans, a T shirt. At a time when you're like, I'm spent all my money on this outfit and I can't really wear it at the next one.
- [33:10]
Elizabeth Day
How bad did it get, this debt spiral?
- [33:14]
Mo Gilligan
It got bad in terms of. Once I got the credit card, I didn't really understand the credit card. And plus I got a credit card, which it was kind of aimed at someone like me. Do you know what I mean? When it's like we're talking like, I don't know, the interest was something stupid. It was ridiculous. 250 APR or something like that. And you're like, oh, at the time, you're like, it's Minor, man. It's only until a year it kicks in. But then I'd borrow money from like a money lender, which was super easy to do because again, it's aimed at someone who doesn't have money. And then I'd borrow money from another lender to then borrow them, pay back the money. And then when I'd get money from a gig or a show, then I'd have to pay that money back out plus interest. So it wasn't bad in a sense that I was crippling in debt, but it was definitely playing catch up where you're like, I really need this show to come through. And it was just hoping you're like, please don't let it snow. I remember once I was like, it's gonna snow and it snowed and all my shows got canceled. And you're like, oh man, I've missed out on £300. And that's at a time where I probably owed £300 back to like a money lender. So it's not. I never got into like, you know, the masses of debt, like 10 grands of worth of debt. But I was always big into things like trainers and a lot of street wear, fashion places like supreme and
- [34:49]
Elizabeth Day
a
- [34:49]
Mo Gilligan
ton of like Jordan crepes and they're things I've just liked and collected. So it got to a place where it was just like, I've got to sell those nice trainers that I've always liked to make some money and pay back whoever I need to pay back or I need to get to this gig and I don't have the money. So let me sell this really nice coat that I got because I can get the money back. So I did have an element of hustle at the same time. And not just I need to borrow money, I need to also hustle in a sense of I'm going to camp out for these trainers because chances are they're probably going to be worth over a thousand pounds. And that money, it's at that flip of they only cost £200. I can maybe make a thousand pounds for those trainers, pay back some of the debt to the credit lenders and still have money for myself. So yeah, it's like a level of hustle, but it's also not great at the same time.
- [35:46]
Elizabeth Day
When was the first time you can remember not worrying about money?
- [35:54]
Mo Gilligan
So I was on the bus and I just finished probably the first leg of my tour. 2016 was when everything really. No, 2017 is when it happened. 2016 was like the spark of doing A video that went viral. But at 2017, everything happened so quick. I quit my job. I went to America for the first time for a brand partnership.
- [36:19]
Elizabeth Day
Sorry to interrupt. And the video that went viral was at the MCs. One that Drake.
- [36:24]
Mo Gilligan
Different types of MCs. Yeah, yeah, that was the one. Yeah, yeah.
- [36:28]
Elizabeth Day
Incredible.
- [36:28]
Mo Gilligan
Yeah.
- [36:28]
Elizabeth Day
So that went viral. You quit your job?
- [36:30]
Mo Gilligan
That went viral. 2016. December of 2016. Still working in retail. Last place I was in was Levi, and that was just due to getting the chance of, you know, small opportunities. BBC One Extra was like, oh, why don't you come in and do, like, a. It's kind of like a demo to be a radio, and they train you how to use the desk. And I was going in there once a week, and that was like, oh, that. I could see that being my career path again. All the videos keep going viral, but I'm still working in retail. And I just said, look, can I change some of these dates? And they just wasn't having it, you know, the manager at the time. So I said, look, I'm just gonna quit. And it was definitely this moment of, like, am I doing the right thing? Because part of me was like, if I'm gonna do this, I have to do this. I can't have the comfort of having a retail job right now. But I just knew there was something that was gonna happen for me. And I did have this. I had this show that I used to do with my friends in Brixton in the Ritzy cinema upstairs. And it was mainly their show, and I'd hosted it, and I put it on my social media. I was like, oh, I'm gonna be hosting this show. And for the first time, like, it, like, sold out. And my friends were like, oh, the show sold out. Okay, well, let's, like, split the money. And I'd earned, like, £500 through just splitting the money with my friends. And I was like, wow, I've just earned a lot. So I started doing my own small comedy shows, which I was still doing that before, and then that sold out. And I was like, oh, my God. Like, I've earned more than I used to when I was even working at retail. And these are just my small shows that I do in Shoreditch. And, yeah, 2017. I then met. I went to a meeting with Live Nation, had an idea for the tour and how I wanted it to be and where we could go to and how we could grow it. And I was very transparent and being in those rooms of saying, look, I have an Idea of how this can work. I'm not a social media act. I'm a stand up comic. And they were like, cool, we've worked with social media people before. It doesn't really work. And I was like, trust me, I have this idea. Small places, we start off up and down and then we just see what happens. Tour went on sale. London sold out in like two minutes. And in my head I was like, nah, it must be like a fake thing because I used to never believe that whole tour sold out two minutes. I was like, nah. Only now that I know it works how it works, I get it. But that year I had all this viral success but I was still technically broke. I didn't have any money. And between the time of me putting the tour on and being on tour, that is the most brokers I've ever been. I couldn't put on any shows, didn't have any trainers to sell. It was like rock bottom. The worst financial place I think I've ever been. Even when I was in debt, I was still able to keep my head afloat. And I said to my manager, I was like, look, I'm doing all these shows. This is great. But I am so broke. And now the credit card debt is really starting to pile up. And. And it did actually, at that point. And she was like, okay, cool. You know, we see. Because obviously, like what we can do in, in terms of giving you like an advance. I say in advance. It was the tickets already sold and through my main current account. And then I get this text which was like, oh, you are. I was basically level of my overdraft limit. And I was like, well, never got this text before. Your overdraft limit is at zero. I got this text and I was like what? It's always been like in the minus. And then I checked my account and I was like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. And it definitely felt like a Willy Wonka moment. Like I've got the golden ticket. And that was like. I'd say that was like my first big check.
- [40:23]
Elizabeth Day
Wow.
- [40:24]
Mo Gilligan
And yeah, I don't think I've definitely had money worries, but not since that time. It's never been as bad as it was when I was younger.
- [40:38]
Podcast Advertiser/Host
Sabrina Corinne. I have been listening to a new show from the binge called Fatal Fantasy. I am obsessed. Oh, my. Wait, I need to know more. Tell me. Tell me everything. Okay, I will. It's very shocking. It's this like ultra weird crime story of a murder for hire plot that. What? Yeah, wait for it. Leverage the dynamics of the underworld and underworld being a medieval fantasy game. Wait, so it's live action role playing gone wrong? Horribly wrong. And you can binge all episodes now? Oh my God, that sounds so good. I know what I'm doing on my drive home today. Search for fatal Fantasy and subscribe to the binge podcast channel on Apple podcasts or@getthebinge.com and then once you're done, you can listen to one of the over 60 true crime and investigative podcasts a part of the channel while you wait for the next month's drop. I really need to know what happens. Selfishly, you do, so that we can talk about it. So whenever you listen, search for fatal fantasy and hit subscribe to the binge to get all episodes all at once ad free. I want to tell you guys about a podcast that is near and dear to my heart and I cannot believe it already came out a year ago. And you can all go listen to it ad free by subscribing to the binge podcast channel. What podcast, Corinne? Tell us. Oh, it's called Blink Jake handle story. I created it about a man named Jake who I met who is the only survivor of a terminal brain injury illness brought on by heroin use. But there is a lot of mystery and medical malpractice and true crime elements that are very shocking and surprising and even some supernatural elements. So this is definitely an amazing story and it's very unique. Did such an incredible job telling the
- [42:21]
Elizabeth Day
story and sharing it with the world.
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Podcast Advertiser/Host
So if you have not listened to it yet, my goodness, where have you been? Because Blink is so freaking good. Thank you. Search for Blink wherever you listen and subscribers to the binge will get the entire season ad free. Plus you'll get exclusive access to the over 60 other true crime stories on the binge podcast channel. Hit subscribe on Apple podcasts or head to getthebinge.com Infamous is the gossip show that's smart.
- [42:48]
Elizabeth Day
We talk about Tyra Banks and bringing down top model. We talk about Jenna Jameson and how
- [42:53]
Podcast Advertiser/Host
she died dominated the 90s.
- [42:55]
Mo Gilligan
You know, she's horny and she's in charge.
- [42:58]
Elizabeth Day
She just was very smart about marketing herself. We talk about celebrities who maybe shouldn't be celebrities, like the Beckham guy. Brooklyn is their first kid. He's had a little bit of the Nepo baby curse. We investigate orgasm cults. A woman's erotic power can unlock many other powers in her life. And of course, we discuss people who have gotten into lots of trouble.
- [43:22]
Mo Gilligan
My name is Molly McLaughlin. I am one of Jen Shaw's many victims.
- [43:28]
Elizabeth Day
She was defrauding the elderly.
- [43:31]
Mo Gilligan
And her tagline was, the only thing
- [43:34]
Elizabeth Day
I'm guilty of is being shamazing. Listen to Infamous, the gossip show. That's smart. The show's called Infamous. You talk a lot in your comedy about code switching and you do it in a very funny way, which is lucky, isn't it, given you're a comedian. But obviously there is, as with all the greatest comedy, this serious underlying point. And I suppose I wanted to ask you how important it is for you to be a noticeably successful black British male comic. All of those things.
- [44:13]
Mo Gilligan
Yeah.
- [44:14]
Elizabeth Day
At once.
- [44:15]
Mo Gilligan
It's a lot. Sometimes. There are times where I do have like a. This is. This is a tiring job at times because I've been doing this job for almost in terms of on. On a mainstream platform anyway, just over 10 years. And sometimes it does feel hard because you still have to feel like you have to prove yourself in a place where you're like, oh, like, no, I've had my own show. And like, yeah, but then if you can do the Brits. No, I've hosted live TV shows. Yeah, but I don't know if you can host a PrimeTime show on BBC, though. Is that. No, no, I've got a Bafta. Yeah.
- [44:54]
Elizabeth Day
Got free, mate.
- [44:55]
Mo Gilligan
Yeah. And it does feel like you do definitely have to keep constantly proving yourself, because the minute I started getting success, it was almost this. Yeah, but you're only there because you're ticking a box, essentially.
- [45:10]
Elizabeth Day
Who's saying that to you?
- [45:11]
Mo Gilligan
This is. These are things that you would see online, you know, if you get, like, for example, when you win a bafta, you'd get some people that would say, ah, yeah, but, you know, you just ticking the box. That's why you've got to. You know, and those things are sometimes hard to muster because you're like, no, like, I'm really good in my field, you know, like, not even trying to hype myself up. But I put a lot of time and effort into the execution of something that feels so seamless and so effortless when it's displayed on television. And that is sometimes quite hard. There is also the pressure of being on platform tv, knowing that you have to represent your community in a space that isn't always represented. But also, you're in the forefront of mainstream television on a Saturday night where little boys and girls up and down the country are not seeing someone that feels like, oh, my God, he looks like my dad or my uncle or like, he looks like my neighbor. Oh, wow, that is. I've not seen this on television. There is a lot of pressure that comes with that. But also sometimes I do lean into that pressure, because I think it is that pressure that is sometimes the fuel that lights the fire in me. Sometimes. Yeah. You know, there are times where you do sit there and you're like, oh, I need to just chill out. I just wanna have some time off and just chill out a little bit, you know, because sometimes when you are doing a press run and, you know, the first time going on the red carpet and it was like, mo, let me ask you, you know, drill music and, you know, knife crime, like, what do you think about that? And you're like, why? Why are you asking me this floor, bro? Why? Like? And I'm like, I don't know why I'm getting asked this, because I know any of the other counterparts that are on this show are not going to get asked that. But also knowing that I am also a voice for a community that doesn't also get their voices heard as well, that feels like a lot of responsibility. But at the same time, it's also quite enriching as well to be on a show and be unapologetically myself. That's also the privilege that comes with the pressure.
- [47:24]
Elizabeth Day
Beautifully put. And I often think that the metric of true success is that ability to be yourself and show up as yourself in every single part of your life. And you have had the most deserved and astonishing decade.
- [47:41]
Mo Gilligan
Oh, thank you.
- [47:41]
Elizabeth Day
It was a pleasure doing the research this interview, because I was like, I don't think I've ever had a triple BAFTA winner. But your third failure, it's such an interesting one, is almost your failure to appreciate those moments, as you put it, not appreciating my career breakthrough moment as it was happening. Yeah, almost because you were too busy, you were too driven. Tell us about that. Do you struggle with it still, that acknowledgement piece?
- [48:12]
Mo Gilligan
Yeah, I do a lot. I think I'm always trying to move on to the next one and when the next one. When is the next one and the next thing. I don't know where that comes from. I think maybe because, again, it's the pleasure of being myself. I don't have to put on a mask or pretend to be someone I'm not. It's just like I'm being myself. And I also want to take myself to this space and that space and that space and that space, and this is how I'm going to execute and do it. So I think that's why I don't enjoy those moments. Of reflection of, you know, a big high, a big show, a success, a win at times. Only recently, I have had to really stop myself and say, no, Mo. Like, enjoy that, man. You've enjoyed that. At the time I had that last year, actually had a show at the O2 and I was on a high for, like, two weeks. And that does not normally happen. Normally it's like, oh, that show was great last night and all right, we go back to the next one. So I am trying my best to really live in the moment and be in the present. I don't dwell on the past much, but I'm trying my best to enjoy it more in the moment and really enjoy, like, those small moments that I've had in my career. I think that's why when you was saying the introduction, I was sitting there like, oh, wow, that is hitting some string in my heart that I've not really taken the time to acknowledge and hear those things and reflect on him and say, oh, wow, that is me. I find it hard to listen to praise about myself. I find it very, very hard. If someone says, oh, well done, you're really good. I'm like, yes, I've had it from my teacher, but I do find it a bit like, oh, yeah, cool, thanks. Anyway, anyway, as we were saying, I find it very, very hard to accept. I don't know where that comes from. You know, sometimes I've been in rooms. I remember you speaking a little bit about la. I remember going to CAA once. The agents I used to have out there. I was going to visit my agent at the time. He's like, yeah, come in. The whole team want to meet you. And I was like, oh, great. And I, you know, go into this room, walk in, it was this long board room, and they had a picture of me on the wall and welcome Mo Gilligan, Cad. All these people around the table who do something different, and they're technically like, your agent is like, hey, what's up? My name's Brad. I'm going to be your. Literally, your agent for publishing. And hey, what's up, sports? I'm your guy if you want to get in, like, esports, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, dude, love your stuff. And everyone's kind of telling me what they do, but then they also like, oh, my God, I'm in scripting. I love your stuff. I work with, like, Jamie Dimitri. So funny, staffless flats. Such a pleasure to have you. You're so awesome. And I was sitting there, like, it was so hard for me to Take all this in one by one and see my picture and then sit next to my agent. And they're like, so. And they're like, so, Mo, tell us about yourself. And I'm like, oh, this is weird. I've not been in this space before. And I decided shriveling up very slowly because I just. It just felt like a bit too much. I don't know. I think there's definitely, like a British thing in that as well. But also just hearing all these people one by one say something nice or praise me or someone be like, oh, my God, dude, early stuff. A couple of cans. Love that stuff. If you ever want to know, like, some social media stuff, your metrics are the data. Dude, you're crushing it. And I was like, bro, please can we stop? Let's turn this off. It was. It was too much. But no, I do shy away from that a lot.
- [52:05]
Elizabeth Day
It's so interesting because in a way, it's a paradox because you can get up on stage and have all of the attention on you or at least on your performance. But for me, what it's making me think of is that kid who was on a separate table from all the other kids in his class and might not feel deserving.
- [52:27]
Mo Gilligan
Yeah, yeah, massively. When I'm on stage, I am definitely a caricature of myself. I am the same person, but that person on stage is a showman. The charm, the charisma, the effortlessness of doing this comedy thing. But as soon as I get off stage, I go back to being me in a sense of like, okay, cool. I just. The show's done now. I definitely love meeting people that come to the show and say, hey, thanks for coming. But I also have to switch that on and hype myself up for that a little bit as well. But, yeah, you know, if anyone's ever come to. My work in progresses, I now leave my shows as soon as I've come off stage. It's the thing that I love the most because I just like being home and just being, you know, with, like, my girlfriend and the baby, like. But I definitely want. If you ever see me walking through, I like. I just like, oh, hey, you're right. I don't. You're right. Cool. I just wanna. Yeah, I do find that quite hard a little bit sometimes.
- [53:32]
Elizabeth Day
What do your parents think of your success?
- [53:35]
Mo Gilligan
My mum loves it. I think my mom is living it with me, if that makes sense.
- [53:39]
Elizabeth Day
Yeah.
- [53:40]
Mo Gilligan
You know, the minute, every time I'm on anything, my mom says, oh, I watched you on, you know, I watched you on this morning. You was good on that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm watching marcing. I've got my snacks. And then my mum still asks me. She's like, so who is that then? But. And I'm like, mom, I can't tell you. Like, I can. Ish. But I'm like, I know my mum wants to watch it and enjoy it, hence why I'm like. I say, mum, I can't tell you. You know, you got not allowed, you know?
- [54:08]
Elizabeth Day
And your dad.
- [54:10]
Mo Gilligan
I think my dad thought I would go more into sport because when I was young, probably. I say young as a teenager, I really used to like football. And I kind of knew that I was. That. I don't think I'll make it pro at this age. I'm 14. I thought I was always good, but I think he thought I may go more into that, but it never really materialized. So when I kind of told him, I was like, I'm doing this performing arts thing. He was a bit like, oh, okay, that's different. I didn't have that in, you know, my Mo Gilligan son bingo card. But here we are.
- [54:44]
Elizabeth Day
You must be so grateful to them for many things, but particularly for being called Mo because you have had so many puns, show names, Momentum. It's Mo time. Do you think you'll ever run out?
- [54:58]
Mo Gilligan
No, no. I'll be honest. At first, it was definitely. It's weird because the first tour was called Couple of Cans Tour, and that was only because of the character. But for the special, the team at Netflix were like, yeah, you know, we don't know if we can call this, like, a Couple of Cans, because there's a guy in Minnesota gonna know this. And my Edinburgh show was actually gonna be called Momentum. And I was like, let's just call it Momentum. And it was testament to the time where I was, like, building up this momentum. And it's quite interesting because whenever I name a new tour show, I'm like, mo. Mo. In the moment, there's Mo to life. Monumental. I just sit in the car and I'm like, ah, that's a tour. Like, my manager was like, what are we calling this tour? And I was like, no, in the. In the moment. There we go. That's the one. This is. Let's not mess around.
- [55:57]
Elizabeth Day
Well, Mo Gilligan, it has been such a pleasure spending these moments with you. And that's why they don't pay me the big bucks. It really, really has. I've loved this conversation.
- [56:09]
Mo Gilligan
Thank you so much. This has been such a fun, like refreshing podcast to do. I've really, really enjoyed myself, so thanks for having me on.
- [56:19]
Elizabeth Day
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Elizabeth Day
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