Olivia Atwood (3:52)

The.

Elizabeth Day (3:53)

Because as a kid, the idea of being the centre of attention was horrifying. Olivia Atwood, welcome to How To Fail.

Olivia Atwood (4:01)

Thank you so much. What an introduction.

Elizabeth Day (4:03)

I'm so happy you're here, even though you are now the centre of attention. I'm sorry if that's making you feel uncomfortable.

Olivia Atwood (4:08)

Well, you know, as we learn, I have become quite accustomed to it somehow.

Elizabeth Day (4:12)

When do you think that switch flipped? When can you remember feeling more comfortable with attention?

Olivia Atwood (4:19)

I think when it was on my terms, when I was kind of commanding attention rather than being thrust into it in a way that felt that I wasn't ready for. For example, being singled out, like in the choir or singled out in a classroom somewhere. I felt like I was out of my depth and then everyone was gonna look at me was horrifying. I see there's a trend on TikTok at the moment talking about, did you used to do this at school? You know, everyone would read a paragraph. Yes. And that if who was dyslexic or was, weren't a confident reader, that fear of knowing these two more people before you, those kind of situations, like, just filled me with dread. Whereas now I don't. I don't have that because I feel. I feel comfortable in what I'm doing, basically.

Elizabeth Day (5:08)

So you have dyslexia and you were diagnosed with that at school?

Olivia Atwood (5:13)

Yeah, really early on.

Elizabeth Day (5:14)

But you also had adhd and that was a much later diagnosis.

Olivia Atwood (5:18)

It was, yeah, it was. It was an interesting one. You know, as we know with ADD and adhd, there's so many facets to it and it doesn't actually just fit this one textbook mold that we all previously believed. And so I fit the characteristics is I was impulsive and I was sometimes hyperactive, but I was also meticulously neat and organized and like you said in the intro, quite anxious at Times and thoughtful. So it was conflict. And that's, I think, what, you know, child psychologists and whoever else were kind of having a look at me at different times where they couldn't kind of pin it down. I think now I am the classic, like high overachieving female with ADHD who overcompensates. You know, women. We naturally try to find ways to be socially acceptable because society is less kind to us when we are annoying and breaking things and falling out of trees than they are to men and boys. So boys don't need to learn to mask as much.

Elizabeth Day (6:22)

What did that feel like when you were younger? And did you feel that you were being misunderstood?

Olivia Atwood (6:30)

I guess looking back on it, I did, but I don't think that was something I registered at the time. I remember feeling quite a lot of frustration towards myself of just the way that I navigated things and why did I find certain things difficult that other people found easy. And there, there was quite a lot of that going on, I think. But it's hard, isn't it, to look back to access those memories, I think from when you were a kid or a teenager, truthfully, is quite hard. Cause I think we also rewrite our own memories a lot.

Elizabeth Day (7:05)

I also think with me, I sometimes think I have a memory, but actually I've just seen a photo.

Olivia Atwood (7:09)

You're there. Yeah.

Elizabeth Day (7:10)

And I wonder if that's especially surreal for you because you were on TV in your 20s, being followed around the Love island villa, falling in and out of relationships and crushes. Have you ever watched yourself that.

Olivia Atwood (7:23)

So that's really interesting because I purposefully have never watched like long form versions of the show, like for example, a whole episode, because I actually made the decision really early on after leaving the villa that I didn't want to edit my memories because I lived it and I remember how it was in my mind. But of course, you know, there's 45 minutes to go on telly, give or take of 24 hours, and they're going to compress it and certain things will make it, certain things won't. And that is the, the nature of television. Something that I've obvious to love and appreciate the, the art form of editing and making good tv. But that isn't my full memory. So we watch bits and bobs. I remember, yeah, quite early on seeing maybe half an episode. And I felt kind of instant like, you know, you could get yourself really wound up, which people do. And I think the best thing to do if you're going to do a show like that is just Submit yourself to the, the process. You are not going to be able to tell the entire 200 minute story because there just isn't time.

Elizabeth Day (8:25)

I want to talk about your TV career post Love island in a. In a second. But because we've just touched on your anxieties as a child, to go from that to Love island is quite a big leap. What was it that gave you the ability to do that? Was it being a grid girl?

Olivia Atwood (8:41)

Oh, like it's, it's so wild to talk about the grid girl stuff. And I worked for energy drink companies and different brands and I did promo modeling and that really got me kind of traveling and seeing the world in such a positive way because there's so much negativity around. Obviously that kind of work especially has been a lot in the media about grid girls and the sexualization of women. And I. And all of that. I can. That there's an argument for that that I completely get on board with. But for me it was a really pivotal moment into finding independence and kind of just getting outside of my comfort zone. Really. It got me away from really shitty, horrible boyfriend. Like physically gave me distance when I'm like physically traveling the world and meeting new people and I was like, oh my God, the way I've been living is not normal. Because sometimes your own bubble, well, they just are used to what you're used to. So how can they shine a light on anything particularly, you know, groundbreaking? Because they do. They're just used to what you're used to.

Elizabeth Day (9:43)

Yeah.

Olivia Atwood (9:43)

But yeah, getting space, like emotionally and physically, it helped me find my confidence. Yeah.

Elizabeth Day (9:49)

Let's go on to your failures.

Olivia Atwood (9:51)

Go on the first.

Elizabeth Day (9:52)

They're really, really good. Yeah. Well, thank you so much because I could tell that you'd really engaged with the premise and that means a lot to me. So your first failure, and I'm reading out because I wanted to get it specifically right, the way you expressed it. Failure to realize I can't find my strength in other people and therefore not realizing sooner I could do things alone, specifically with boyfriends. That is such an interesting one. I think a lot of women will relate to it and I think it's probably intimately connected with people pleasing. I don't know how you feel about that, but tell me about this. And when you first started feeling like you couldn't be on your own or you needed to be with someone else.

Olivia Atwood (10:33)

So my mum would say that I was like a clingy child. Like I, you know, I was that. That kind of out of the three of my Siblings. I was the one who would be like, I don't want to go to the toilet on my own. Or you know, can you do, can you come with me here? Can you come there? Crying on the first day of school. That was of very embedded in who I was as a person. And my parents, my mum did a really good job, to be fair, of, of trying to help kind of push me to, to, to speak with my own voice and stand on my own two feet. I went to boarding school and things like that kind of forced me into situations that, you know, that otherwise wouldn't have necessarily happened. And I think that what I did was I just replaced that kind of crutching on a parent or, you know, a guardian who is nearby to then friendships and then boyfriends. And I, I always had, you know, even from a young age, a best friend. And it would be like a really, you know, intense, kind of overly suffocating where we're best friends and no one is as close as us. And you know, and that then moved on to the way I felt with boyfriends. I used to kind of become really focused on this one person. Everything else on the outside was like white noise. And I would tell myself the narrative that I had separation anxiety, which to an extent I really did with those early relationships. You know, I was very emotionally dependent on whoever was, I would call it like an emotional crutch at my life, at that time in my life. That's how I treated relationships.

Elizabeth Day (12:06)

How much do you think ADHD might have played into that?

Olivia Atwood (12:09)

Quite a bit. And I think I, I think when I, when I was working out who I was and what my value to life was and, and you know, for a large part of my teens, my 20s, I really thought I don't any value to anything that was, I know this, it sounds really dramatic, but that's genuinely how I felt. And I, I, I, I, I then put everything into a friendship or a boyfriend because that gave me like a sense of purpose. You know what I mean?

Elizabeth Day (12:36)

Yeah.

Olivia Atwood (12:36)

And I wanted it to be suffocating and, and, and then therefore I attracted, really, I was like prime kind of right for the picking for people that don't have terribly nice personalities. You know, if you're like a narcissist or you're, you've got a bit of borderline personality disorder and you've got this girl who move in next week and we should get matching tattoos. You're like, yes, let's go. Like, she's gonna be the easiest one ever to manipulate, even if they didn't know they were doing it. I made it too easy. You know, I relate to that so completely.

Elizabeth Day (13:08)

My 20s, I was in a series of long term monogamous relationships from the age of 19 to 36 and I got married then to my last one and then divorced. So it didn't work out. Spoiler alert. And I think I outsourced my sense of self to other people.

Olivia Atwood (13:24)

Yeah.

Elizabeth Day (13:25)

And I just didn't know who I was. I was too scared to find out. And all I wanted to do was please the other person or meet the other person's needs or what I thought their needs were. And I remember vividly an ex boyfriend who was lovely asking, he was on the good ones asking me, where do you want to go for lunch? And I was like, I don't know. I don't know. You go, where do you want to go for lunch? And I genuinely could not work out where I wanted to go for lunch.

Olivia Atwood (13:51)

You'd actually disconnected that much from your own needs?

Elizabeth Day (13:55)

Yes.

Olivia Atwood (13:56)

My. One of my best childhood friends who, who has stood the test of time. And I also think your interest in friendships is fascinating. I love it because people don't talk about friendships enough.

Elizabeth Day (14:04)

Right.

Olivia Atwood (14:05)

Like we just gloss over it. But anyway, my. One of my best friends who's been since a child, so she really knows me and she was like, she's calling the chameleon. Because I was like that if I dated a guy that was a rock rocker. I'm wearing skinny jeans, the hair's going dark, everything. Then I'm dating a guy that's like, you know, I don't know, really sporty. I'm sporty and I just would constantly like shape shift to whoever had come in and kind of wooed me. I would, yeah, I would go in to fit them, never to fit me. I'd always go to fit them.

Elizabeth Day (14:34)

And let's talk about friendship. So how did that impact your friendships?

Olivia Atwood (14:38)

Well, I, I speak there of my best friend Charlotte, who I've been best friends since primary school and she, I mean, I don't know what she did in a past life deserve me because she stood through the test of time with me and we. And she's, you know, she's had to, she's always given me her hon opinion but she's never abandoned me in the choice of my bad decisions. So she is a true friend. And you know what it is to have a true friend is like someone that genuinely is like, wants you to win. Like there's no like conditions or thing they genuinely Want to see you do great and, and, and have the kind of love that you deserve. And I think with female friendships, especially jealousy is such an issue, you know, which it kind of weaves its. I think that women are like, society makes us be so competitive with each other. So when you find a true female friend who is not in competition with you, also having quite different tastes, I think actually works well, like yin and yang. Like sometimes I think if you. You put us together, people be like, how have you two been best friends for like, you know, over 15 years? Because you're quite different. But I think that also does work. I think I've had friends where I've met, you know, in different points in my life or where like, like, I think we're like kindred souls. I'm like, oh my God, you're just like me and you. We do. And that kind of implodes on itself. I think after a while, if you're too similar to someone, I'm just laughing.

Elizabeth Day (15:59)

Because I'm relating so hard. And it's taken me longer than it's taken you to understand and unpack all of that. Because I think that what we're talking about is codependency in relationships. And actually the best, most functional relationships are interdependence. And. And I'd love to talk to you a bit about your husband, Brad, because when I met my now husband, I remember him saying this thing to me once where we had the chat where I was like, where's this going? And he said, well, I'm enjoying the time I spend with you. And I like the fact that we're walking along parallel lines and we're separate, but together. And he's like, and if that continues for a few weeks, a few months, or a lifetime, then that would be a great experience. And I was like, God, that's so unromantic. This is like date three.

Olivia Atwood (16:48)

Olivia. I'm looking for matching tattoos.

Elizabeth Day (16:51)

Yeah. I was like, why are we not running away to Rio?

Olivia Atwood (16:53)

Yeah. Yeah.

Elizabeth Day (16:54)

Because I was so used to being love bombed by narcissists.

Olivia Atwood (16:56)

Yeah.

Elizabeth Day (16:56)

And just having my own agency stripped away from me. Whereas Justin gave me the chance to state what I wanted. Not only the chance, but, like, made me actually really, really evaluate that. And now I feel so supported and safe in that relationship. And we are independent and interdependent, and it's the best way of being. What's Brad like? What made him different?

Olivia Atwood (17:19)

To be honest, it mirrors that quite a lot, Brad. You know, people know the story of our getting together. And untogether and everything like that. If I hadn't gone on Love Island, I don't think we would be together. I think that we had to kind of pull away for us both to get some perspective. Now with Bradley, he is the first male relationship, like, you know, dating relationship I've had where, like you just said with your relationship, he has his own thing, like, he has his own job, he has his own goals and I have mine, and he wants me to have them. Like Brad is when I, like, you know, the best decision I think anyone can ever make is, like, their life partner. Because when it. When it's wrong, it can be so terrible. But I think more so, like, for women, because society is not. Not. It's still harder for us to win, right?

Elizabeth Day (18:15)

Yes.

Olivia Atwood (18:15)

So if the. If your literal co partner in life doesn't want you to win, what chance do you have? Like, if you're, you know, sitting there at home and you're going, oh, I didn't get that job, and. And your husband's going, well, you know, that's all right. You know, just do something else. Or they go, no, go back and kick that door down because you deserve that job. It makes a big difference. And I think not many men truly want to see their feel female partner, like, fly, like. And I know that's. That's really controversial because I think to have success, and also when you have success, like, in our industry, I call it, like, loud success. That my sister's, like, super successful, I'd argue more successful than me. She's, you know, what she does in a very corporate world. But it's not like our stuff's loud. It's like, you know, he can't turn on the telly or open a phone that's seeing my face, and then he has to live with me. That could become very jarring very quickly. I never had that before.

Elizabeth Day (19:16)

So precious. And I think you'll bang on.

Olivia Atwood (19:18)

Yeah.

Elizabeth Day (19:19)

I've definitely had exes who might claim to be supportive, but they're actually supportive in a very superficial way. It's like they're supportive of you showing up and looking nice when they need you to, but when you. Actually, I've had this direct experience when I wanted to make a career change, there was no support there whatsoever. It was just like, no, you can't do that. You need to stay small, essentially. And I think what you're identifying is generosity of spirit in both friendships and romantic partners. And it's so important. How did you get out of this pattern of outsourcing your sense of self to others, feeling like you needed someone else. Was it something that a bad relationship taught you? How did you work it out?

Olivia Atwood (20:03)

I don't think it was an intentional thing. I think I, around the time of it, accepting to go on Love island. Because I turned Love island down twice. Right. For boyfriends.

Elizabeth Day (20:12)

So chic. Oh, less chic.

Olivia Atwood (20:14)

They were chasing me. I just, honestly, I flex such a knob every time I say that. But yeah, but I. And I turned it down momentarily for Brad. And then I realized that Brad and I weren't in quite the locked off monogamous situation I thought we were. And then I had a bit of a come to Jesus moment where I was like, what are you doing? You have to go and do something. Because I was in this area of doing things that scared me. So I was like, this is scary and I don't like it and I don't know what it's gonna be. And the easier thing would be to stay here again and just argue with this guy I'm seeing about why he's not treating me right or I can just like fully take control and go and do this thing and then whatever happens after happens. And I know Love Island's obviously quite a. An unusual example to, to make, but I think there's a situations in everyone's lives where they could have that kind of uncomfortable decision, Axle, where that one decision is going to change their whole life. And in terms of the relationships and what I then decided, I want different relationships. I feel like as humans we're hardwired to feel important on some level and to feel like we are good at something and people have value to us. And I think up until that point, because I didn't feel like I had any importance. And I don't mean importance, any egotistical center of I'm important. Because I went on Love Island, I meant like, I didn't feel important to myself, like, you know, in that sense. So I was like, once I came out of Love island and I started kind of organically like bleeding into this other TV work and I felt like I was good at it. It changed the way I felt about myself for the first time in the whole like 25 years I've been alive and then I think in turn it then changes what you expect from other people.

Elizabeth Day (21:57)

Yes.

Olivia Atwood (21:57)

So I feel like if you can be a stay at home mom and you get genuine, you know, importance and you kind of validation from that, that's amazing. And that means that that's what you're meant to do. But for other people, I think that's why it can be a bit of a road of, like, misery because I think they feel, they lack that feeling of what is my thing, what's my meaning? Yeah, my purpose. And I feel like as I started to find that everything else just fel.

Elizabeth Day (22:26)

Your authenticity shines through. Because actually, if you're unsure about something, you will take the audience along with you. And I think that's the other thing, is not pretending that you have all of the answers all the time.

Olivia Atwood (22:36)

And I also think we're in such. It's like we're in such a set up to fail kind of world because. And I also make the think of always, you know, reminding everyone that I'm not perfect and I have rough edges and I will sometimes drink vodka and pass out face down in a gay club like you're. I'm not ever going to say to everyone like, I am this perfect pristine who makes the right decisions all the time. Because then when you do put a foot out of line, they're coming for you with pitchforks.

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Olivia Atwood (24:20)

I've been learning to throw a boomerang because this is the kind of thing that really gets the listeners engaged.

Jonathan Van Ness (24:25)

You know, interviews with people who will make you smarter.

Olivia Atwood (24:28)

Does the amount that you learn protect.

Elizabeth Day (24:31)

You from cognitive decline?

Olivia Atwood (24:36)

Can't people just listen to the show? Can't they just. Just enjoy A delightful treehouse full of information and I think I'm bleeding.

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Olivia Atwood (24:46)

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Elizabeth Day (25:16)

Let's get onto your second failure because I'm aware that I could natter to you all day and you've probably got places to go to, documentaries to present. Your second failure we've touched on it is your failure to care for yourself.

Olivia Atwood (25:28)

When I had low, I don't like to use it, low self esteem, my feelings towards myself weren't positive and I think that was it. I was kind of like bobbing around in bad relationships. I didn't have the ADHD diagnosis. I didn't know why I found things harder than other people. And then I think as a result of that, when you're not. When you really don't love yourself, everything you do reflects that. So, like the way you eat, the way you prioritize sleep, if you exercise, all of that. Do you know what I mean? I just felt like prioritizing any form of wellness, which I know Gen Z are way better at than us was. Yeah. Not something I was actually worthy of, which. That sounds so deep, doesn't it?

Elizabeth Day (26:10)

It does sound deep and I'm wondering where it comes from. Did it, I mean, did it come from your upbringing in the sense that those things. There's definitely. In this country there's a mentality of stiff upper lip and you get on with it and there's a lot to be said for that.

Olivia Atwood (26:23)

Sometimes my mum always verbally would, you know, kind of talk to me especially like, you know, like taking care of myself and eating right and all those things. But I think like you say just the way in being a 90s kid, obviously you've got the stiff upper lip of like the Englishness and then my dad's German. So you, you put those two together and it's a real get on with it mentality. I mean, yeah, it's like lying in to my dad was like, my God, it's night. When my dad has a North American accent, just for clarity, he's like, my God, it's 9am this girl is like still asleep. So maybe there's a little bit of a. That kind of vibe. But I, I don't know. I think, I think it was more me. I think it was more my relationship with myself really seeing as we're talking.

Elizabeth Day (27:08)

About the 90s and we can remember that very strange culture where much of it was really kind of liberating and great and it was ladettes and great music and all that. And then the other side of that was this like toxic media circle of shame looking at women's bodies, analyzing, criticizing them. How do you think that affected you? How did you feel about your appearance at this stage in your life?

Olivia Atwood (27:35)

I think that probably influenced more than I realized that kind of failure to self care because like you say, I feel like the Ro. The sort of supermodel staying out all night partying. Nicole Richie kind of era was really glamorized. So kind of not taking care of yourself in that sense. If you flip it to now of what's like trendy, it's like everyone's obsessed with taking care of themselves and yeah, I think I was influenced by that in the sense that I wanted to, yeah, I wanted to like be cool and I wanted to be, be you know, being thin and smoking and drinking was all just things that were social currency that we knew held value, you know, which also had massive detrimental effects on our well being.

Elizabeth Day (28:16)

How do you feel about your looks now?

Olivia Atwood (28:20)

Good. Like I hesitated then because it's again, it's such a female British thing. I'm not going to say I think I look good because everyone's going to think I love myself. God forbid. No, I'm happy with the way I look. I, I've always been pretty consistently happy with the way I look and my body. Despite my feelings about myself, it was one thing that always stayed quite consistent. I, I never had any major hang ups. I think I was maybe too into my looks at different points because I, I really felt that was like the only thing that I had going. So any way that I could kind of in my eyes improve on that was really important. But I was naturally, I was lucky in the sense that I was, I was well, I say lucky. It was just a toxic mess. But I was tall and I was naturally really skinny. So in that era when everyone was just starving themselves, like I remember being at boarding school and I would be the one like eating the pile of toast in bed and like, you know, my dorm mates like you, you know, because they'd all be, yeah. Restricting what they ate which was, was something that was so normal around everyone my age and for those years and that it was something I didn't have to worry about too much. But also on the other hand of that, it's like, you know, when I did get too thin at times, it's like, you know, from again, just not looking after myself. It was something that was praised on rather than people going, oh, I don't know if it's healthy to be that thin. You know, it was something that is just interesting the way we approach things now. Whereas now I strive to be strong. Yeah, I'm in the gym lifting weights.

Elizabeth Day (29:48)

Like, I love that you love weights.

Olivia Atwood (29:50)

Can you imagine me doing that 15 years ago? I've been like, oh, my God, get out. Am I going to lift a weight?

Elizabeth Day (29:55)

Well, the gym was really uncool.

Olivia Atwood (29:56)

It was not cool. And if you were going, you're just going to run on a treadmill.

Elizabeth Day (29:59)

Like, that's something that I discovered in my 30s and latterly I've got very into weights and that. I know that you love your weights and you're right that it's a kind of mental headspace as well. That's really important because I did years of fertility treatment and I felt like I lost control of my own body in a way. And being able to reinhabit my body feels so powerful. And weights and resistance training has given me that.

Olivia Atwood (30:25)

Yeah, and everything. The fact that we've undermined the fact that women need skeletal muscle for so long is actually crazy as well because it's like our survivability against anything is better when we're stronger. You know, it's. And I, I really take like stock of that now. You know, I kind of. I wouldn't have cared if I missed a meal, you know, 10 years ago I'm like, whatever. Now I'm like, I. I would feel really guilty if I, you know, didn't eat enough protein in a day. I prioritize it, but it, like you say, it's, it's a mind shift.

Elizabeth Day (30:56)

And what else do you do for your care now?

Olivia Atwood (30:58)

I do everything. Honestly, like I said, weird, because I was actually on the phone, my agent this morning and she was like, there isn't. I've always been quite an extreme person. But there's, there's there's either like I say, like vodka and gay club till 5am or there's like hyper oxygen. There's literally. And I do the first one much less now. But I mean, I do, I do a lot of supplements. I work out like resistance training four to five times a week. I try and sleep more. I'm on the nad. Injections Dunno. Yeah, report back. But so far, feels.

Elizabeth Day (31:33)

Yeah.

Olivia Atwood (31:33)

Like, I don't know if it's placebo. I did hyperbaric oxygen actually over Christmas. My husband was doing it for his knee to help. To help with some recovery. So I was like jumping in there with him again. There's no exact way to measure these things, but I felt like I had more energy and I felt revitalized. And then everyone knows, like I'm, you know, I love a Medispa. I love an injectable, a facial, anything that. That's kind of new, you know, on the market, I'll give it a go to an extent.

Elizabeth Day (32:02)

Are you a workaholic, do you think?

Olivia Atwood (32:04)

Yeah.

Elizabeth Day (32:05)

What do you think of that term? Because I think I am too, but I sort of want to reclaim it because I love work, so. Work is also my hobby, but I.

Olivia Atwood (32:13)

Think you've just nailed it. I think, I think it's a privilege thing.

Elizabeth Day (32:16)

Yes.

Olivia Atwood (32:16)

Yeah, of course. We're workaholics. Look what we do for a job. It's fucking awesome. Like, but then I think trying to like shame people for not being in love with their job is also just really gross. Like, it's really easy to go. Yeah. I'm obsessed with what I do, of course, because to me there isn't a real, like, there isn't a real cutoff point between a working day and a non working day. Because I'm actually always thinking of things. Like I'm always writing in my notes. Like sometimes, you know, even when it's like I'm off over Christmas, that's when I've got some best ideas or things that I want to research or think people I want to interview on the pod. Like. And you must do the same. You, you always be so. That to me is. Yeah, it's kind of obsessive, but I'm completely happy to be obsessed with this because I'm doing something that is. That I love. It doesn't feel like a job. But I don't think we should be thrusting that on people, you know, because some people it's just a way to survive and you put food on the table and that's fucking it. And that's also fine.

Elizabeth Day (33:17)

Yeah.

Olivia Atwood (33:17)

You know, are you competitive with myself?

Elizabeth Day (33:21)

Okay.

Olivia Atwood (33:22)

Yeah. Because I, I would say, yeah, I. I give myself a hard time. I don. I don't really look left or right. It's kind of internalized because sometimes if I'm. If I set these kind of little goals or. There's always a fear, isn't it, that you Know that things will kind of wean off so you kind of. It's like the little legs like a duck below the boat. You want to keep pushing forward. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Checking off the boxes on your to do list is a great feeling. And when it comes to checking off coverage, a State Farm agent can help you choose an option that's right for you. Whether you prefer talking in person on the phone or using the award winning app, it's nice knowing you have help finding coverage that best fits your needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

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Elizabeth Day (34:39)

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Olivia Atwood (34:40)

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Elizabeth Day (34:47)

Let's get on to your final failure, which is. It's a direct challenge issue to me, which is your failure to cry.

Olivia Atwood (34:53)

I love that this is like me and you because you love to cry, don't you? I do.

Elizabeth Day (34:56)

I love a good did cry. I cry very easily. I'd never met anyone who cries more than me until I met my husband.

Olivia Atwood (35:02)

Oh my God, stop. Are you seriously serious?

Elizabeth Day (35:05)

Like sometimes we go to the cinema and no doubt he cried. It was in floods at Wicked and I was like, am I now a.

Olivia Atwood (35:12)

Hard hearted because my other failure should be failures. Just enjoy musicals.

Elizabeth Day (35:17)

Oh my God, he loves a musical. I'm making him sound like he's a gay man. I was going to say that's actually ideal for me. I love that.

Olivia Atwood (35:24)

To be fair, second to my husband, I would marry one of my gay friends. That would be my choice. So they probably wouldn't marry me. But yeah, yeah, I something. I don't think I really realized how I felt about it as much as I do in the last couple of years. Yeah, I don't. I have a really hard time with crying and I also have a really hard time with people crying. So please don't cry.

Elizabeth Day (35:49)

I don't worry, I'm going to hold myself together. But did you not cry when you were a child? I mean, obviously as a baby.

Olivia Atwood (35:55)

Maybe this is a. Maybe this is a. And like a knee jerk reaction to having spent so many years being so tearful and kind of anxious and all the rest of it. And I. I cried a lot in those. Some of those past relationships. Like, oh, my God, Like, I mean, cried myself until I could pass out. Cry, like as if someone had died, like over these breakups and these arguments. And I think maybe in this. This kind of era of my life that I'm in now, it. It does. It. Maybe it touches on something that I. I feel that I. I gonna go back to her. So I've kind of shut it. Like, I'm like, I don't like the way. Even though I cried a lot, to be fair, having said that, in. In those teenage 20 years, I still wasn't good at crying in front of.

Elizabeth Day (36:40)

People because it makes you feel too vulnerable.

Olivia Atwood (36:43)

Vulnerable, like just very exposed. I can't. It's a. It's a feeling that it's really hard to fully put into words. If I cry at home and my husband's there, I. I always run and I go into the duvet like a child, and he'll try and, like, pick me out from the duvet and will just. I don't almost. I'm happy for him to hug me and comfort me, but I couldn't just sit in front of him and kind of sob. But he. He's not a crier, but he's more in. I think he's more in touch of his emotions than, yeah, me.

Elizabeth Day (37:16)

So when you are really upset or sad about something, is there a physical manifestation of it or do you just internalize it?

Olivia Atwood (37:26)

Moody, probably. Like, yeah, like, I get like, moody, kind of shut down.

Elizabeth Day (37:32)

I. To be honest, I know that you're saying all of this like it's. You think I will think that that's weird. I wish I was a bit more like that because I've definitely found myself in situations where I really want to make a point. Sometimes in work situations.

Olivia Atwood (37:47)

And then you break down.

Elizabeth Day (37:49)

Yeah. And I feel really like I can feel my chin wobble and my voice starts to wobble and I really don't like it. And I. I don't know how to stop it. I've got a bit better at being aware of it now. And I think what happens for me is that I immediately go back into a child self and I feel like I've lost my adult potency. And it sounds maybe like something similar is happening for you, but you're just dealing with it in a different way. Like, you're going. You don't want to go back to that younger self. And so you've got the strength of mind just to be able to shut it up off.

Olivia Atwood (38:25)

Yeah. But I think that it's hard, isn't it, to be, to be a functioning human. Because I think there's a sweet spot, isn't there?

Elizabeth Day (38:30)

Yeah.

Olivia Atwood (38:31)

Because I almost fear that I've gone. I, I kind of, I would like to find a point. Do you know what it is, is I think about if, if and when I have children, which is something as I sit here right now, I think that I want, and I kind of, I would like to be able to show them a range of emotion that's more, more. That has more of a broad spectrum, you know, than, than kind of the one I have right now which I think is quite, quite stifled.

Elizabeth Day (39:02)

Yes.

Olivia Atwood (39:03)

You know, my parents were not criers. Like I can. I've never seen my dad cry. And I could count on one hand the amount of times I've seen my mum cry. And I think it's not because. And they never spoke. Shame on people crying. But I just think that like I said that German, English, split in a family, it, it, we just, it's a very get on with it, you know, kind of thing. And I think maybe because I was a bit of a crybaby, you know, at school and I probably had that kind of buzz, met with that kind of irritation from teachers of, come on, Olivia, you know, let's get on with it. And then I had boyfriends who didn't have a very nurturing. I probably felt I faced quite a lot of rejection when I did show emotion. So then as an adult, I think I'm self protecting. And then what I've done is I think I then deflect people who are highly emotional all the time. I end up going, oh God, for God's sake. I'm like, I'm like that, you know, that kind of moody millennial person. Well, just because I'm emotionally constipated, you should be too. You know, I'm like, I. When people are really. I'm not saying I'd do this if you cried. I'd comfort you, but I'd probably find it quite uncomfortable.

Elizabeth Day (40:06)

Okay.

Olivia Atwood (40:07)

I'd probably be like, with like one finger.

Elizabeth Day (40:08)

Like, would you think I was pathetic?

Olivia Atwood (40:11)

Depends completely what it was.

Elizabeth Day (40:12)

Okay. I'm not gonna cry.

Olivia Atwood (40:14)

No, it's in this episode, I think one of my. I think I have a very astute. And I think I've always had this read on people and I think I all. I almost dramatically know that you're a genuine person. Like, I've watched your work for years, I've listened To you. I know that you are, you're not performative or, you know, so I, if you cried. But then I think I have a very good read on people that are, are performing.

Elizabeth Day (40:39)

Yes.

Olivia Atwood (40:40)

And, and they cry as a, as a deflection tactic, as, as a theatrical and that I have, like, so little tolerance for. And I think that's why sometimes I came off quite cold in Love Island.

Elizabeth Day (40:49)

Oh, I loved you on Love island.

Olivia Atwood (40:50)

Because I was like, oh, shut up.

Elizabeth Day (40:52)

Again, just like the kind of person I wanted to be but wasn't. It's like, no, no. Honestly. Also, I can't believe that about the ick that you basically introduced that I always get.

Olivia Atwood (41:00)

So, I mean, I think I, I take full credit for bringing it into, like, UK pop culture, resurfacing it. I have been told by people that it did it feature early episode of Sex in the City. So the possibility that it was imprinted on my, like, early childhood memory while my mum was watching it in the background and I probably absorbed it. But yeah, me and my friends used to say it and I remember when I said it in the beach hut and the producer said, hold on, the what? And I said, it's got the ick. Because we used to say that as a friendship group. And she was like, what? What is that? And I was like, well, you don't know what the ick is. And then, yeah, I should have bloody trademarked that. Shouldn't have been. Yeah, that was the dumbest thing I've done.

Elizabeth Day (41:40)

Legendary status. Can I ask you a really personal question which is about. So this whole crying vulnerability thing. Did you grow up in a family that named Emotions? Did you tell each other that you loved each other?

Olivia Atwood (41:55)

No.

Elizabeth Day (41:56)

Yeah, I, I, I have a very similar experience.

Olivia Atwood (42:00)

So if, because I've just. My mum, if she was here, she'd be like, oh, you little liar. Because when we were kids, we as children, definitely, and it was so as. I don't know when it stopped, but as children it was right, you know, you did that the at the door sort of, you know, I didn't want a water and shout. Right. You know, get your water. Good night. Love you. Like we did that. And then I, I don't know at what point we kind of stopped doing that. And I, it's so funny because I, I have. Me and Brad were driving back from Manchester today and we got into this conversation and I guess I only noticed that my family don't do it once I became part of Brad's family and his family say love you all the Time. So any little phone call that's like, oh, we're five minutes away. Okay, love you. His mum is always like, his mum says to me a message, like, sure, my. His mom will send me a message and be like, I just saw you on Loose Women. I'm so proud of you. I love you. And the first couple of times it really, I was like, what?

Elizabeth Day (42:56)

Like it was confronting.

Olivia Atwood (42:58)

Oh, yeah, I don't know what to do. Like, what do you mean? Like, you love me? Like, I didn't know what to do with it. And. And I think that's what shone a light on the fact that my family don't do it as adults. And then I said to. To my. I said to Brad, I. I want to say to my parents that I love them, right? But I have this kind of fear. Fear that if I was to call them and say, I love you, they would probably think something was wrong with me while I was dying and I'd almost ruin their evening. Cause they'd probably be so. Do you know what I mean? But then I have this thing, and as life go and you lose people and things happen and you think, oh, you know, it'd be a real regret that if something happened and I hadn't, you know, told them how I feel, even though they probably know, because I think it's an unspoken thing. I know my parents love me. I don't have any doubt about that. We. We just don't verbalize it in that way as adults. And it is an uncomfortable thing for me. And I think when people tell me they love me, my reaction to it is, I think it's like, I'm like, oh, I'm like kind of disarmed by it.

Elizabeth Day (44:09)

Yes.

Olivia Atwood (44:10)

Do you say it with your family?

Elizabeth Day (44:11)

No.

Olivia Atwood (44:12)

Do you not. You say, yeah. It's more common than you think, isn't it?

Elizabeth Day (44:15)

I think it is, actually. And I think also there's so much cultural fetishization of like the perfect quote unquote family and how they all are with each other. And in the same way that there has been about romantic relationships. And because we're all. Well, you and I, anyway. Although I know that you're younger than me, but. But were like bred on this diet of American rom com. But actually that wasn't the experience of a post war generation in Britain. It's like a totally different thing. But I go to the opposite extreme and I tell everyone I love them all the time.

Olivia Atwood (44:50)

Do you?

Elizabeth Day (44:50)

It's not my family. Even though, again, like you, I know that we do. We Just don't necessarily express it all of the time.

Olivia Atwood (44:58)

Yeah, it's making me laugh because. Because, you know, if I was on the phone with my sister and we were having a good old chat and then I went, okay, I love you. She'd probably go, all right, freak. Like, what? Where's that come from? Because it's just we. We don't do that. Yes, it's funny, isn't it?

Elizabeth Day (45:13)

Yeah, it is.

Olivia Atwood (45:14)

But, like, you say this, like, younger generations are, like, psycho dissecting everything. And I also think there's a sweet spot with that because I think there's a really good thing to look at things that have happened in your childhood. And, yeah, people. People make mistakes. Your parents have made mistakes, you've made mistakes and, you know, hurt each other and vice versa. But also, in most cases, unless your parent is, like, pure evil, your parents done the best they could of what they had, and it's their first time living as being human beings as well. So I feel like we could cut each other a bit more slack now.

Elizabeth Day (45:50)

If anyone else has said this. Failure, which is such a great one, by the way, I would ask that the last time they cried, but I'm very aware. I don't want to upset you, even though you wouldn't be upset because of everything we've spoken about, but that you came in and said that your nan had just died, and so I don't really want to bring that up, but that, I'm assuming, is the last time you cried.

Olivia Atwood (46:11)

Yeah, that was. Yeah, so I. She. It was not. Isn't it weird when someone's elderly and they've not been well, and we love using this expression like, oh, well, you know, it wasn't out of the blue. It was kind of. We knew, was it. It was like, approaching. But then when it happens, it still is a shock and it was. I think I dealt with my emotions around, you know, losing my grandmother quite a lot over the last few months. I think what it was was thinking of my dad in pain, which I didn't. Like, I didn't. It made me feel sad. So my mum told me on the phone. I hung up. And then I just. Like, I was sitting on the end of my bed, actually, and then I just kind of laid back and I was like, oh. And so. But I was thinking about my dad being upset because, like I say, I've never seen my dad CR Guy. And I didn't like the idea of knowing that he was in pain and that made me sad. And then I cried and I Laid back on the bed and I. I just cried. But I don't know, it must have been. I thought, I'm laughing. See, this is how I deal with everything. I don't know, a few minutes. And I was really. I felt really sad thinking about it. He was. I knew he was out there in Germany and he'd be with his brothers and just kind of what that would look like. And then I just kind of. Kind of, literally, I kind of rose from the bed like some avatar and was like, right, I have stuff to do. I have stuff. I'm not. I. Because I. I also think, because I went through years in my 20s, like I said when I had these arguments of boyfriends, and I'd cry to the point where I could. Like, literally, I wouldn't be sick. You know, that kind of sobbing where you're like, I do. If I do cry now, I kind of pull the cord on myself. Like, I don't. I. I don't let it. Because you can just go off a cliff edge, can't you? And I did have loads to do yesterday. That stuff that I couldn't, Couldn't just, you know, I had to get on with stuff. I was on, like a time limit.

Elizabeth Day (48:01)

You're a boundaries crier.

Olivia Atwood (48:04)

And I felt I was. I thought. You know what I thought. I've actually. I do feel like I've let it out, feel a little bit lighter. And I felt sad for the rest of the day and I had the sadness and my husband was, like, very sweet to me because he knew I was sad and I was quieter, but that was like. Yeah, I felt like I'd kind of. Yeah, I was. I dealt with it.

Elizabeth Day (48:26)

I'm so sorry for you and your family's life.

Olivia Atwood (48:29)

Thank you very much.

Elizabeth Day (48:30)

And I've really, really adored chatting to you.

Olivia Atwood (48:33)

Oh, likewise.

Elizabeth Day (48:34)

It has been such a privilege.

Olivia Atwood (48:35)

I've loved it. I could have talked to you forever and I want to. I know we said it off. Off camera, we've met in the corridor, but I want to say thank you again for your support over the years, because it hasn't gone unnoticed and it's. No, it's meant a huge amount to me, honestly. I do mean that. Go on. I'm a big fan of you.

Elizabeth Day (48:54)

That means so much to me. Thank you. And always and forever.

Olivia Atwood (48:57)

And I think it's because you're smart. You get it.

Elizabeth Day (49:00)

Thank you.

Olivia Atwood (49:00)

And the people that don't get it is because they don't. You don't get it. Looking at human behaviours, it's fascinating.

Elizabeth Day (49:06)

It's fascinating.

Olivia Atwood (49:07)

It's so fascinating watching humans interact.

Elizabeth Day (49:09)

Thank you. It's anthropology. It's like connection, all of that. Yeah. People are just so dismissive because and very often I find the harshest critics have never watched a single minute of reality tv.

Olivia Atwood (49:19)

Yeah.

Elizabeth Day (49:20)

This is a whole other conversation. Yes, it is.

Olivia Atwood (49:21)

Yeah.

Elizabeth Day (49:22)

We'll put a pin in it for now. You're going to stay to do Failing with Friends.

Olivia Atwood (49:25)

I will, yeah.

Elizabeth Day (49:26)

And I just want to say thank you so much again for being Olivia Atwood. Thank you for coming on how to Fail. Please do follow how to Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends this is an Elizabeth Day in Sony Music Entertainment original podcast podcast. Thank you so much for listening.