ON ADDICTION... With Mae Martin and Marian Keyes

Summary

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How to Fail with Elizabeth Day

Episode: ON ADDICTION... With Mae Martin and Marian Keyes
Date: September 28, 2025
Host: Elizabeth Day
Guests: Mae Martin (Comedian, Writer, Actor) & Marian Keyes (Author)

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Overview

In honor of National Recovery Month, Elizabeth Day curates powerful excerpts from previous interviews with Mae Martin and Marian Keyes—two guests who have navigated addiction and emerged with resilience and insight. This episode delves into their respective journeys with addiction, their evolving understandings of substance use, self-acceptance, and recovery, and the hope that can be found even in the aftermath of profound struggle.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Redefining Addiction and Medication (Mae Martin, 02:30 – 04:41)

• Mae Martin’s History with Addiction

  • Mae discusses their experience with substance abuse and ADHD.
  • On being medicated for ADHD: “It's been pretty life changing... it’s kind of eradicated any lingering urge to seek out a stimulant because it’s really measured and that part of my brain is satisfied, I guess.” (02:36, Mae Martin)
  • Mae expresses caution about dependency, aware of overmedication risks: “I'm wary of it. I know it’s easy to become dependent on it...so I'm careful with it.” (02:57, Mae Martin)

• Adopting Dr. Gabor Maté’s Definition of Addiction

  • Mae emphasizes Gabor Maté’s holistic definition of addiction:

    “He says an addiction is anything that you crave and you do compulsively despite it having negative consequences. So it's about those negative consequences in your life.” (03:22, Mae Martin)

  • Elizabeth adds: “He also says it can be a trauma response.” (03:43, Elizabeth Day)
  • Mae explains how embracing this broader definition helped them recognize addictive patterns beyond substances, such as relationships and technology.

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2. Art, Therapy, and Real-Time Self-Discovery (Mae Martin, 04:41 – 07:25)

• Autobiographical Creativity in ‘Feel Good’

  • Mae shares how creating and acting in ‘Feel Good’ intertwined with their own journey of self-understanding, especially regarding gender identity and addiction:

    “It was so personal...I was really figuring it out in real time.” (05:33–06:33, Mae Martin)

  • The process was both harrowing and therapeutic, forcing real introspection.

• Navigating Narrative Closure and Pronoun Changes

  • Contrasting real recovery with TV expectations:

    “In TV you are constantly encouraged to have a satisfying narrative arc with a definite ending. But of course, that is not your life.” (06:33–06:46, Elizabeth Day)

  • The evolving pronouns of Mae’s character mirrored their off-screen experience:

    “Literally in real time, telling the crew on set. Actually, that would be nice if you guys would like. It was really happening...” (06:55, Mae Martin)

  • Mae credits co-star Charlotte Richie for meaningful off-screen support.

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3. Alcoholism, Depression, and Rock Bottom (Marian Keyes, 07:25 – 14:13)

• The Interplay of Failure, Alcoholism, and Self-Worth

  • Marian recounts downward spirals after her "failure" to get into journalism college:

    “I felt that I had been hubristic in thinking that I would be good enough...I shut down all ambition...Alcohol had been a great friend to me from early teens, and it just became...a better and better friend...I just drank, and I drove down cul de sacs and I had relationships with men who endorsed my own sense of self-loathing.” (07:36–08:57, Marian Keyes)

  • A period of treading water, hoping for magical rescue.

• The Turning Point and Seeking Help

  • Description of “running out of road,” progressive worsening of addiction:

    “Any addiction is progressive. Like, it gets worse, and I continue to normalize the abnormal.” (09:39, Marian Keyes)

  • Recounts her suicide attempt as a desperate cry for help:

    “I didn't want to die. I wanted help. Like, I wanted somebody to come along and sort of helicopter me out of it.” (10:38, Marian Keyes)

  • Cooperative secrecy from friends and colleagues kept her illness hidden from family.

• Revelations in Rehab

  • Entered rehab thinking depression was the root issue, only to realize:

    “The only thing that's wrong with me is that I'm an alcoholic. And the only way I'll ever be okay is if I stop.” (11:54, Marian Keyes)

  • Grieving the loss of alcohol, which she describes as her “best friend,” yet ultimately finding hope and a new clarity.
  • Liberation from addiction: “My mood changed. And I felt, you know, I could see the wonder of the world, which had seemed like it was misty and ashy and shrouded in grey for so long.” (13:22, Marian Keyes)

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4. Recovery, Hope, and Long-Term Freedom (Marian Keyes, 14:13 – 15:20)

• On Recovery as Possible
  • Marian emphasizes:

    “I hope because it's such a hopeless condition, addiction, you know, and that feeling that every door is locked, that you're trapped in this underground room, it is possible to recover like it is possible.” (14:25, Marian Keyes)

  • Describing freedom from obsession:

    “I am, like, almost literally blind to alcohol, which—the freedom I've been given...I was such a prisoner. And now I really can. I don't care if I accidentally smell somebody else's wine. I...feel, oh, my God, now get it away from me. It's like horrible stuff. Like, all it made me feel was miserable for years and years.” (15:04, Marian Keyes)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Mae Martin reflecting on ADHD medication:
  “It's kind of eradicated any lingering urge to seek out a stimulant because it's really measured and that part of my brain is satisfied, I guess.” (02:40)

• Mae Martin on Gabor Maté’s wisdom:
  “An addiction is anything that you crave and you do compulsively despite it having negative consequences.” (03:22)

• Mae Martin acknowledging real-time growth through art:
  “I was really figuring it out in real time.” (06:33)

• Marian Keyes on the heartbreak of giving up alcohol:
  “It was my best friend...It took away my pain, it took away my fear, it took away my sorrow...The thought of being without it, like, I grieved it, like the way you would grieve a lover.” (12:19)

• Marian Keyes on recovery and freedom:
  “The freedom I've been given...When I was such a prisoner. And now I really can. I don't care if I accidentally smell somebody else's wine…all it made me feel was miserable for years and years.” (15:04)

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Important Timestamps

• 02:30 – Mae discusses ADHD, medication, and addiction
• 03:22 – Gabor Maté’s definition of addiction, trauma response insight
• 04:41 – Autobiographical healing through TV and ‘Feel Good’
• 06:55 – Pronouns and real-life identity discovery reflected in art
• 07:36 – Marian begins recounting post-college failures and slide into alcoholism
• 09:39 – The normalization and escalation of addiction
• 10:38 – Marian’s suicide attempt as a call for help and pathway to rehab
• 11:54 – Realization in rehab: "I'm an alcoholic"
• 13:22 – The emergence of hope and wonder post-addiction
• 14:25 – Marian’s message of hope and recovery

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Overall Tone

The conversations are honest, vulnerable, and deeply human—striking a balance between humor where possible and profound compassion for pain. Both guests illuminate how confronting and understanding failure—whether through personal struggle or creative pursuit—can ultimately foster self-knowledge and hope. The episode offers comfort and solidarity for anyone grappling with addiction or the shame of perceived failure.

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For more conversations on resilience, recovery, and growth from failure, follow How To Fail with Elizabeth Day on your podcast platform of choice.

Transcript

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[Elizabeth Day]

Welcome to how to Fail and I am so glad you're here. Here this week I'm diving into the how to Fail archive to share some powerful highlights from two of my favorite past guests. These are conversations that I hope will bring you comfort, spark curiosity, or simply remind you that you're not alone. In honour of National Recovery Month, which runs throughout September, I'm revisiting excerpts from episodes with Mae Martin and Marion Keys, two brave and brilliant people who are who have both experienced addiction in different forms. First up is comedian Mae Martin, who was drawn from their personal journey with addiction to create compelling stand up and storytelling. In this clip, may reflects on the nature of addiction, describing it not as a single substance or behavior, but as anything you crave and do compulsively despite the negative consequences. Then we'll hear from Marion Keys, the much loved author who in her 20s developed alcoholism and clinical depression. In this clip she talks about how alcohol was her best friend, that her relationship with it was enmeshed with who she was as a person. But when she eventually found the strength to come out of that dependent relationship, Marian felt hopeful she could once again see the wonder of the world. And she felt free. These conversations are honest, deeply human and ultimately hopeful. Let's dive in. Given your history with substance abuse.

[Mae Martin]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

Are you medicated for ADHD or is that something that I am.

[Mae Martin]

I am a bit. Yeah, I'm a bit. And it's been pretty life changing.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yeah.

[Mae Martin]

And in a way it's kind of eradicated any lingering urge to seek out a stimulant because it's really measured and yeah, that part of my brain is satisfied, I guess.

[Elizabeth Day]

Right. Yeah, that and escape rooms.

[Mae Martin]

But I'm wary of it. I know it's easy to become dependent on it and I definitely know people, especially in the States, who are really overmedicated and yeah. So I'm careful with it.

[Elizabeth Day]

Well I know that the definition of addiction you prefer is the Gabor Mate, former guest on how to Fail.

[Mae Martin]

Was he?

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes.

[Mae Martin]

What a guy.

[Elizabeth Day]

I know.

[Mae Martin]

Incredible, sonorous voice. And he's a real presence, isn't he?

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes. Would you mind reminding us what that definition is?

[Mae Martin]

Sure, if I can remember it. Well, he says an addiction is anything that you crave and you do compulsively despite it having negative consequences. So it's about those negative consequences in your life. Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

And he also says that it's very often.

[Marion Keys]

No, no, no.

[Elizabeth Day]

That's totally spot on. Oh, is it just given everything we've been talking about. He also says it can be a trauma response.

[Mae Martin]

Right. Y. I'm sure. Yeah. I mean, yeah. And his work has been so mind expanding for me because it was the first time that I connected other addictive behaviors in my life and I really thought that addiction was just something that drug addicts had and it was all to do with these very addictive substances and that once you're hooked, you're hooked. And then when I broadened the definition and thought about, you know, relationships, and so many of us have had that experience where you know, someone's bad for you or that you're not happy, but you. You can't stop fighting for it to, you know, or texting them or our phones or all these self soothing behaviors that we all do. That was really helpful for me to see that and notice it in other areas and take a more holistic look at my life.

[Elizabeth Day]

You use a lot of this hard won wisdom in Feel Good.

[Mae Martin]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

Which I loved.

[Mae Martin]

Thanks.

[Elizabeth Day]

I know so many people who listen are huge fans of it as well.

[Marion Keys]

Oh, great.

[Elizabeth Day]

And there's one scene that always sticks to my mind and makes me laugh. Still thinking about it, it hit me where the character has gone to an NA meeting and decided it's not for them and then goes with someone who becomes their sponsor to a coffee shop.

[Mae Martin]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Day]

And it's just such a tiny thing, but in the backdrop you see at the end of the scene, like 800 coffee cups.

[Mae Martin]

Thank you for noticing that.

[Elizabeth Day]

I loved it so much.

[Mae Martin]

That's so nice. Oh, thanks for noticing.

[Elizabeth Day]

I suppose I had a question about Feel Good, which is how much co creating that with Johamson was helpful to you in discovering yourself.

[Mae Martin]

So much of it. And, well, similar to the album, maybe writing that first season, I'd never made television. I'd never acted before. And so I wrote it not worrying about any of that and not thinking, oh, I have to actually act these scenes. I Just wrote it, not knowing what it would be like. And then it was quite harrowing in a really rewarding way. But it was so personal. And so, yeah, it was definitely therapeutic. And I was sort of writing this character of myself who was really struggling with gender identity and things like that. And then the first season ended and we knew we were doing the second season that would be the last season, and we knew, okay, we've got to tie this up. And so I guess the characters should come to some conclusion about who they are and their addiction. And then that made me have to really introspect and think, yeah, how do I feel? Yeah, I was really figuring it out in real time.

[Elizabeth Day]

And the interesting thing is that I know that in TV you are constantly encouraged to have a satisfying narrative arc with a very definite end point.

[Mae Martin]

Right.

[Elizabeth Day]

But of course, that is not your life.

[Mae Martin]

No, I wish it was. To tie everything up neatly like that. Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yeah. The thing that did change was the pronouns of the character between the first and the second season.

[Mae Martin]

Yeah. And again, literally in real time, telling the crew on set. Actually, that would be nice if you guys would like. It was really happening and I was so lucky to be making it with Charlotte Richie, who is a friend. And she was just so, such an amazing support emotionally in a way that she probably shouldn't have had to be, you know, just as a co star. But we did a lot of talking and processing and it was really, really nice.

[Elizabeth Day]

I mentioned in the introduction that quote where you said you wouldn't have your 20s back for all the money in the universe. No, what was happening in your 20s after you were rejected from journalism college? What then?

[Marion Keys]

Oh, well, the thing about that failure was I found it very humiliating. Would it be hubris? Is that the word? I felt that I had been hubristic in thinking that I would be good enough to get into journalism college. And so I shut down everything. I shut down all ambition in myself, career wise. I became very, in the day, not in a good way, short termist about everything. I kind of gave up. Alcohol had been a great friend to me from early teens. And it just became, you know, a better and a better friend. And I was in a job where my boss was very, very kind to me, like she took care of me. And I was overqualified for that job. And I stayed there because I felt I would never be able to quote, better myself anyway, so I drank. I drank and I drove down cul de sacs and I had relationships with men who endorsed my own sense of self loathing. I was hopeless with money, but at the same time, I was always holding out hope that something magical would happen. I mean, an awful lot of it was hung on a man. That this fabulous man would arrive and he'd make everything okay. He would polyfilla in all my lacunae. Is that the word? And he'd fix up all my wonky broken bits, and I don't know that maybe I wouldn't need to work or that I could have babies and that I could be a good mother and that that could be my life. It was just like treading water or being on a treadmill, going nowhere, cycling a stationary bike. That's what I was doing. Except I wasn't. Except. Because everything was getting worse. And. I don't know, about a year and a half before I finally had to stop drinking, my drinking moved from a worry to. It was obviously alcoholic to everyone except me. I felt very depressed and I felt very hopeless, and I was so grateful to alcohol because I thought, my God, this is helping me because I am so unhappy. And how would I manage if this was taken from me? And any addiction is progressive. Like, it gets worse, and I continue to normalize the abnormal. I ran out of road, and it was the best thing that could have happened to me, but it was like a waste of eight years. Although. No, I mean, it wasn't because you.

[Elizabeth Day]

Had to get to the end of the road.

[Marion Keys]

I did, you know, like that thing about hitting rock bottom. Like, I wouldn't have stopped if it hadn't been unavoidably, undeniably horrific. And it was.

[Elizabeth Day]

What was the end of the road for you?

[Marion Keys]

You know those things they say, like, slowly, slowly, then all at once. I woke up one Monday morning and I was due to go to work. And the depression that goes with heavy drinking and is hardly a surprise considering that alcohol is a powerful depressant. But I woke up and I thought, I cannot go on like this. And alcoholics are addicts who decide to get help. They often talk about a kind of a jumping off point where you realize you cannot carry on as you are. But the idea of living without the substance, whether it's alcohol or whatever, that it's. Well, I was in this paralyzed, powerless, terrified state. I was on antidepressants, and I was on sleeping tablets, and I took them all. And I don't think. I didn't want to die. I wanted help. Like, I wanted somebody to come along and sort of helicopter me out of it. And that is sort of what happened. I was living in London My parents were in Dublin. They had some sense of how bad things were, but my flatmate, who was still my really good friend, kept it from them, as did my work colleagues. But by trying to kill myself, no matter how half hearted it was, it kind of forced me into a point where I could no longer pretend that I was okay. And that got me into a rehab place. But even when I was going in there, I thought I was really depressed. I had heard that it was a really tough place. I said, this is excellent, because I thought whatever was wrong with me was kind of depression. Or it was that I needed to have therapy and some sort of trauma would be identified and then it could be sort of plucked out of me and then I'd be fine, and then I could go back and I'd be a normal person who could manage life and I could drink normally. Jesus. I was delusional, but, like, that is part of the whole illness. And I was just very lucky that, like, I went there and very quickly it dawned on me. Like, the only thing that's wrong with me is that I'm an alcoholic. And the only way I'll ever be okay is if I stop. And it was a clear revelation. But I was also. I was heartbroken because this had been my best friend. I don't say it so much anymore because I have a different love of my life now, but it was the love of my life. It was my best friend. It was took away my pain, it took away my fear, it took away my sorrow and my heartbreak at my empty life and at my loneliness. The thought of being without it, like, I grieved it, like the way you would grieve a lover or a person who died. It's a very powerful relationship addiction. It's incredibly enmeshed and passionate. Well, mine was. It's like having a dysfunctional relationship with an abusive person. I knew what I had to do, and very quickly I became hopeful. Like, my feelings changed really quickly. And I suppose I was lucky. I think a lot of people who don't get that kind of immediate lift might relapse. But just because I wasn't pouring this powerful chemical into me any longer, my mood changed. And I felt, you know, I could see the wonder of the world, which had seemed like it was misty and ashy and shrouded in grey for so long. And I had hope that I could have a life which was more like the lives other normal people had. I feel so lucky. I feel incredibly lucky.

[Elizabeth Day]

I feel incredibly lucky that you have the words to express what you went through with such beauty and eloquence. And I know that that will be enormously helpful for so many people listening.

[Marion Keys]

I hope. I hope because it's such a hopeless condition, addiction, you know, and that feeling that every door is locked, that you're trapped in this underground room, it is possible to recover like it is possible. And really and truly, for me, it was my waking thought. It was all about how I could drink, you know, where I would get it, how I got the money for it. Like, it was everything to me. I can be out now. I can go to parties. I can be at dinner with people. People can drink. I am, like, almost literally blind to alcohol, which the freedom I've been given, you know, when I was such a prisoner. And now I really can. I don't care if I accidentally smell somebody else's wine. I. I feel, oh, my God, now get it away from me. It's like horrible stuff. Like, all it made me feel was miserable for years and years.

[Elizabeth Day]

Please do follow how to fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends this is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.

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[Elizabeth Day]

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[Marion Keys]

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