ON AMBITION… With Gillian Anderson and Munroe Bergdorf

Summary

Podcast Summary: How To Fail With Elizabeth Day

Episode: ON AMBITION… With Gillian Anderson and Munroe Bergdorf
Date: March 2, 2026
Host: Elizabeth Day
Guests: Gillian Anderson (actor, producer), Munroe Bergdorf (model, activist)

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on ambition—its driving force, its complexity, and its personal costs and rewards. Elizabeth Day invites two formidable guests, Gillian Anderson and Munroe Bergdorf, to share their experiences with ambition, confronting the notion of "failure" not to work, and reflecting on how ambition shapes one's self-worth, identity, and approach to obstacles. Together, they consider whether ambition is liberating or controlling, and unpack what it means to carve space for pleasure, progress, and representation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Gillian Anderson on Workaholism and Self-Worth

[03:29 – 08:13]

• Work as Self-Validation:

  • Gillian confesses she’s a “self-described workaholic,” driven by a deep-seated need to earn her successes.
    • Quote:

      "Part of it, I think, is showing myself that I deserve it because I'm doing all these things. If all these good things are happening, then I better be working for them."
      — Gillian Anderson, [03:44]

• The Power of Pleasure:

  • She challenges the idea that pleasure is frivolous, suggesting it should be embraced as a legitimate avenue to power and fulfillment.
    • Quote:

      "Why isn't [pleasure] as much of a sense of power, you know, to lean into that, to properly embrace pleasure and make space for it and make time for it and give it to oneself...?"
      — Gillian Anderson, [04:42]

• Pleasure vs. Suffering:

  • Elizabeth amplifies this, suggesting pleasure can be as “ennobling, as transformative as suffering or sadness or pain.”
    • Quote:

      "Why can't [pleasure] be as ennobling, as transformative as suffering or sadness or pain?"
      — Elizabeth Day, [05:19]

• Regrets and Parenting:

  • Gillian discusses guilt from work encroaching on time with her children, the struggle to balance ambition and presence.
    • She credits “strict rules” for striking a balance.
    • She hopes her sons see her ambition as positive, witnessing her “effectively building things.”

2. Munroe Bergdorf on Ambition Forged by Adversity

[10:00 – 13:09]

• Ambition as Driving Force:

  • Munroe describes herself as “extremely ambitious,” fueled by necessity, rejection, and gatekeeping in modeling.
    • Quote:

      "I have a drive that I think is my biggest attribute... I've really had to live a life of discipline and a life of tenacity and constant setbacks, constant people that are gatekeeping, people that are withholding."
      — Munroe Bergdorf, [10:00]

• Barriers in Fashion:

  • Recounts early hurdles as a trans model, recalling the industry's exclusionary practices.
    • Quote:

      “Coming into the fashion industry, nobody wanted to hire me... They were like, why would we work with a trans person almost.”
      — Munroe Bergdorf, [10:16]

• Representation & Progress:

  • Reflects on the significance of seeing multiple trans models now on runways—what once was a "gimmick" is now normalized.

    • Quote:

      "Now we're seeing that change. We're seeing trans people be in shows and it's not a thing that they're trans. It's just... visibility is incredible."
      — Munroe Bergdorf, [11:16]

  • Draws connection to Black models’ experiences of exclusion and the gradual evolution of beauty standards.

• Faith in Change:

  • Expresses hope for a future where being trans doesn’t require constant awareness or explanation.
    • Quote:

      "I've really got faith that one day trans people are going to be able to navigate society in the same kind of freedom that other people... did, and we'll just be able to be ourselves without having to constantly be so aware of the fact that we're different."
      — Munroe Bergdorf, [12:42]

3. On Power and Final Reflections

[13:09 – 13:53]

• Munroe's Word:

  • "Powerful" is chosen as a summation—applied not only to her career and activism but to the empowering journey both guests have undergone.

    • Quote:

      "You're so powerful. You're powerful in your truth. You're powerful in your words on the page. You're powerful in person."
      — Elizabeth Day (to Munroe Bergdorf), [13:30]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Gillian Anderson, on guilt and balance:

  "There have been a couple moments when I haven't been able to stop around my kids... But I feel like there's a good balance right now. When I'm with them, I'm with them."
  — [06:31]

• Munroe Bergdorf, on industry change:

  "I've done shoots where my transness has been, you know, almost like a gimmick. And I'm really glad that I've opened doors for so many people."
  — [11:47]

• Elizabeth Day, closing praise:

  "I am so grateful to you for finding time to do How To Fail. Honestly. It's meant the world to me."
  — [13:30]

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [02:23] – Introduction to the episode's ambition theme
• [03:29] – Gillian Anderson on being a workaholic and origins of drive
• [04:41] – Discussion of pleasure versus productivity
• [06:31] – Parenting and work-life balance
• [10:00] – Munroe Bergdorf's take on ambition, rejection, and representation
• [12:42] – Reflections on change and hope for the future
• [13:30] – Closing words and expressions of mutual admiration

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Tone & Language

The episode’s tone is candid, warm, and deeply reflective. Both Gillian and Munroe speak with vulnerability and conviction. Elizabeth deftly guides the conversation with empathy and thoughtful questioning, maintaining an inspiring and honest atmosphere.

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Summary Flow

The conversation navigates from Gillian’s internal battles with work and pleasure, to Munroe’s external battles with prejudice and transformation in the modeling industry. Both reveal how ambition can be both an ally and a tormentor—fueling progress but demanding sacrifices. The episode spotlights resilience, the evolving meaning of success, and the power of both striving and satisfaction.

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For listeners seeking an honest look at ambition from two trailblazing women, this episode offers insight, relatability, and hope for a more inclusive future.

Transcript

[Elizabeth Day]

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back to how to Fail. This week we're talking about ambition, the engine that drives us forward, the inner voice that tells us to keep going, and the shadow side that asks whether we've ever done enough. First act actor and Emmy winner Gillian Anderson reflects on being a self confessed workaholic and the belief that she has to earn her place through constant effort.

Highly relatable, we discuss pleasure as power,

the guilt of not working, and how she balances fierce professional drive with parenthood and presence. Then model and fashion icon Monroe Bergdorf shares how her ambition was forged through rejection and gatekeeping in the fashion industry. From being treated as a gimmick to witnessing real change on the Runway, she speaks about perseverance, representation and widening the path for others. This is an episode about striving self worth and it asks whether ambition liberates us or quietly runs the show. First up, let's hear from Gillian Anderson.

Your final failure is your failure to not work. Are you a workaholic?

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

And where do you think that comes from? Why do you feel that you need to work in order to earn your place on this planet?

[Gillian Anderson]

I don't quite know, but I do have. I mean, it's like a Protestant work ethic. I'm not quite sure where it's come from. But what I do know is I feel incredibly lucky on the one hand. I mean, on all hands, I don't mean nothing. Yeah, I'm incredibly lucky, incredibly fortunate, privileged, all of that, to have the choices that I have had both in my life and my career. And part of it, I think, is showing myself that I deserve it because I'm doing all these things. If all these good things are happening, then I better be working for them. You know, it's not coming lightly or it's not frivolous. That's another thing actually, that I wanted to talk about in terms of pleasure that I'm starting to realize too, is that so much of pleasure is perceived as being frivolous.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes.

[Monroe Bergdorf]

Trivial.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah. And why, why isn't it as much of a sense of power, you know, to lean into that, to properly embrace pleasure and make space for it and make time for it and give it to oneself as it is. The other things that we. And so I'm, I'm, you know, I'm trying to have more of that in my life, but also realizing the degree to which so much of what I'm involved in, whether it's, you know, this drink or one of the shows that I work on or etc. Is about pleasure and the joy and pleasure. Anyway, I digress.

[Elizabeth Day]

I think you're so right about pleasure because why can't it be as ennobling, as transformative as suffering or sadness or pain?

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

Because it's the same thing, but the different end of the spectrum.

[Gillian Anderson]

Yeah, exactly. I mean, actually I do feel like even though I am a self described workaholic, I do get pleasure from it. I do, I do get pleasure from it when I'm Clear. It turns out when I'm not eating prawn crackers and drinking Coca Cola, I think, quite clearly, and things come to me. I'm in a moment right now where. And I'm sure that a lot of it has to do with my age. And it's none of wanting to leave a mark. It's none of that. It's just. It is feeling like, hang on, I've still got some things to do. I've still got, you know, things to do that I didn't even know I wanted to do. And that is, of course, in roles and building a company that I'm building. But it's also just in terms of realizing that I do have a few things that I want to share with people and.

[Elizabeth Day]

Have you ever regretted working too hard or taking on a project?

[Gillian Anderson]

There have been a couple moments when I haven't been able to stop around my kids, you know, that had more to do with. Not in terms of my work as an actor, but stuff on the side or with other projects and stuff where I have felt the guilt of choosing to focus on those things instead of having time with kids. And I feel like there's a good balance right now. I feel like when I'm with them, I'm with them, you know, and that has become more and more meaningful to me. It's been really important to me, in terms of my acting work, to always have them as part of the priority in terms of this is when I'm available, this is when I'm not, et cetera. But this is different. This is in terms of what happens with meetings and with zooms and all those other things that end up in our days today, taking. Sucking that time. And I've got some pretty strict rules around all of that. So that my workaholism is something that my boys can look at as being beneficial to them because they can see, you know, not just in terms of what I bring home at the end of the day, but in terms of seeing me effectively building things. And they both have an interest in that. And I think it's been really great that they get to see. And I think they would say that, too, that to see a mum who is entrepreneurial and making things.

[Elizabeth Day]

And they're teenagers, aren't they?

[Gillian Anderson]

And you mentioned two of them are. And then I have one who's. Yeah, 28.

[Monroe Bergdorf]

Okay.

[Elizabeth Day]

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[Monroe Bergdorf]

I think I'm an extremely ambitious person. I have a drive that I think is my biggest attribute. I've really had to live a life of discipline and a life of tenacity and constant setbacks, constant people that are gatekeeping, people that are withholding. And, you know, coming into the fashion industry, nobody wanted to hire me. And it took some of the biggest photographers just taking a chance on me, like Nick Knight, like Rankin, who wanted to work with me when, you know, I was constantly having doors slammed in my face because they were like, why would we work with a trans person almost. And it's, you know, I know that a lot of black models from the 90s felt the same way as, like, we're, you know, I watched documentary the other day where they're like, we're just not hiring black models this season. It's exactly the same. So why would we work with a trans person? It's not that kind of campaign. It's not an LGBT campaign. Wow. And, like, now we're seeing that change. We're seeing trans people be in shows and it's not a thing that they're trans. It's just, you know, it is a thing because the visibility is incredible and you Know, when I see a trans model on a Runway, if it's like, Alex or if it's Maxim or if it's, oh, God, India, or if it's all of these incredible people that are within the industry, that means so much to me. But it is not exploited that they're trans anymore. And for so long, it was. I have done shoots where my transness has been, you know, almost like a gimmick. And I'm really glad that I've opened doors for so many people. I've been in this industry for almost a decade now. But if it wasn't for, you know, hearing the stories of, you know, women like Naomi Campbell and Joan Smalls and Jordan Dunne and Leomie Anderson, talking about being exploited from the ages of 14 and being told that there's no black models this season or being on set and not knowing how to do black hair, if it wasn't for those stories and seeing their tenacity and that they could get through it, then I could apply the same kind of work ethic and be like, okay, well, one day there's going to be more than one trans person on the Runway or there's going to be a trans person on the Runway. And, you know, I have faith that there's going to be multiple trans people on runways one day, and then that's going to filter out as well, and then we're going to see more trans people in all sorts of campaigns, and then the beauty standard is going to change, and then trans beauty is not going to be seen as any different from any other beauty, just like black beauty is now getting the respect that it didn't once upon a time.

[Gillian Anderson]

And.

[Monroe Bergdorf]

And that's really, you know, what the book is about as well, is that everything does change. And I've really got faith that one day trans people are going to be able to navigate society in the same kind of freedom that other people that experience the same kind of oppression in yesteryear did, and we'll just be able to be ourselves without having to constantly be so aware of the fact that we're different.

[Elizabeth Day]

You gave me four words. I'm gonna let you off the final one. Oh, I'm sorry.

[Monroe Bergdorf]

I forgot that I was. Maybe the last one's long winded.

[Elizabeth Day]

It's such a beautiful place to end. And if I can, I would like to give the final words.

[Monroe Bergdorf]

You're like, this is quick fire.

[Elizabeth Day]

I think, no, I never wanted to be quick fire with you. Honestly, I could do this for hours. But I know you've got a fabulous

launch to go to.

The final word for me would be powerful. You're so powerful. You're powerful in your truth. You're powerful in your words on the page. You're powerful in person. I am so grateful to you for finding time to do how to fail. Honestly. It's meant the world to me.

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