Elizabeth Day (3:29)

Your final failure is your failure to not work. Are you a workaholic?

Gillian Anderson (3:35)

Yeah.

Elizabeth Day (3:36)

And where do you think that comes from? Why do you feel that you need to work in order to earn your place on this planet?

Gillian Anderson (3:44)

I don't quite know, but I do have. I mean, it's like a Protestant work ethic. I'm not quite sure where it's come from. But what I do know is I feel incredibly lucky on the one hand. I mean, on all hands, I don't mean nothing. Yeah, I'm incredibly lucky, incredibly fortunate, privileged, all of that, to have the choices that I have had both in my life and my career. And part of it, I think, is showing myself that I deserve it because I'm doing all these things. If all these good things are happening, then I better be working for them. You know, it's not coming lightly or it's not frivolous. That's another thing actually, that I wanted to talk about in terms of pleasure that I'm starting to realize too, is that so much of pleasure is perceived as being frivolous.

Elizabeth Day (4:41)

Yes.

Monroe Bergdorf (4:42)

Trivial.

Gillian Anderson (4:42)

Yeah. And why, why isn't it as much of a sense of power, you know, to lean into that, to properly embrace pleasure and make space for it and make time for it and give it to oneself as it is. The other things that we. And so I'm, I'm, you know, I'm trying to have more of that in my life, but also realizing the degree to which so much of what I'm involved in, whether it's, you know, this drink or one of the shows that I work on or etc. Is about pleasure and the joy and pleasure. Anyway, I digress.

Elizabeth Day (5:19)

I think you're so right about pleasure because why can't it be as ennobling, as transformative as suffering or sadness or pain?

Gillian Anderson (5:29)

Yeah.

Elizabeth Day (5:30)

Because it's the same thing, but the different end of the spectrum.

Gillian Anderson (5:33)

Yeah, exactly. I mean, actually I do feel like even though I am a self described workaholic, I do get pleasure from it. I do, I do get pleasure from it when I'm Clear. It turns out when I'm not eating prawn crackers and drinking Coca Cola, I think, quite clearly, and things come to me. I'm in a moment right now where. And I'm sure that a lot of it has to do with my age. And it's none of wanting to leave a mark. It's none of that. It's just. It is feeling like, hang on, I've still got some things to do. I've still got, you know, things to do that I didn't even know I wanted to do. And that is, of course, in roles and building a company that I'm building. But it's also just in terms of realizing that I do have a few things that I want to share with people and.

Elizabeth Day (6:23)

Have you ever regretted working too hard or taking on a project?

Gillian Anderson (6:31)

There have been a couple moments when I haven't been able to stop around my kids, you know, that had more to do with. Not in terms of my work as an actor, but stuff on the side or with other projects and stuff where I have felt the guilt of choosing to focus on those things instead of having time with kids. And I feel like there's a good balance right now. I feel like when I'm with them, I'm with them, you know, and that has become more and more meaningful to me. It's been really important to me, in terms of my acting work, to always have them as part of the priority in terms of this is when I'm available, this is when I'm not, et cetera. But this is different. This is in terms of what happens with meetings and with zooms and all those other things that end up in our days today, taking. Sucking that time. And I've got some pretty strict rules around all of that. So that my workaholism is something that my boys can look at as being beneficial to them because they can see, you know, not just in terms of what I bring home at the end of the day, but in terms of seeing me effectively building things. And they both have an interest in that. And I think it's been really great that they get to see. And I think they would say that, too, that to see a mum who is entrepreneurial and making things.

Elizabeth Day (8:08)

And they're teenagers, aren't they?

Gillian Anderson (8:10)

And you mentioned two of them are. And then I have one who's. Yeah, 28.

Monroe Bergdorf (8:13)

Okay.

Elizabeth Day (8:20)

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Rachel Hampton (9:30)

Hey. Psst. You didn't hear this from me, but Normal Gossip is back for its ninth season. Join me, Rachel Hampton, as I share the juiciest gossip from the real world with some very special guests. This season, we're bringing back some old friends, a Radiotopia buddy, and for the first time ever, a Nobel laureate. That's right, we have Malala on season nine. Normal Gossip is out on all your favorite podcast platforms.

Monroe Bergdorf (10:00)

I think I'm an extremely ambitious person. I have a drive that I think is my biggest attribute. I've really had to live a life of discipline and a life of tenacity and constant setbacks, constant people that are gatekeeping, people that are withholding. And, you know, coming into the fashion industry, nobody wanted to hire me. And it took some of the biggest photographers just taking a chance on me, like Nick Knight, like Rankin, who wanted to work with me when, you know, I was constantly having doors slammed in my face because they were like, why would we work with a trans person almost. And it's, you know, I know that a lot of black models from the 90s felt the same way as, like, we're, you know, I watched documentary the other day where they're like, we're just not hiring black models this season. It's exactly the same. So why would we work with a trans person? It's not that kind of campaign. It's not an LGBT campaign. Wow. And, like, now we're seeing that change. We're seeing trans people be in shows and it's not a thing that they're trans. It's just, you know, it is a thing because the visibility is incredible and you Know, when I see a trans model on a Runway, if it's like, Alex or if it's Maxim or if it's, oh, God, India, or if it's all of these incredible people that are within the industry, that means so much to me. But it is not exploited that they're trans anymore. And for so long, it was. I have done shoots where my transness has been, you know, almost like a gimmick. And I'm really glad that I've opened doors for so many people. I've been in this industry for almost a decade now. But if it wasn't for, you know, hearing the stories of, you know, women like Naomi Campbell and Joan Smalls and Jordan Dunne and Leomie Anderson, talking about being exploited from the ages of 14 and being told that there's no black models this season or being on set and not knowing how to do black hair, if it wasn't for those stories and seeing their tenacity and that they could get through it, then I could apply the same kind of work ethic and be like, okay, well, one day there's going to be more than one trans person on the Runway or there's going to be a trans person on the Runway. And, you know, I have faith that there's going to be multiple trans people on runways one day, and then that's going to filter out as well, and then we're going to see more trans people in all sorts of campaigns, and then the beauty standard is going to change, and then trans beauty is not going to be seen as any different from any other beauty, just like black beauty is now getting the respect that it didn't once upon a time.

Gillian Anderson (12:42)

And.

Monroe Bergdorf (12:42)

And that's really, you know, what the book is about as well, is that everything does change. And I've really got faith that one day trans people are going to be able to navigate society in the same kind of freedom that other people that experience the same kind of oppression in yesteryear did, and we'll just be able to be ourselves without having to constantly be so aware of the fact that we're different.

Elizabeth Day (13:09)

You gave me four words. I'm gonna let you off the final one. Oh, I'm sorry.

Monroe Bergdorf (13:12)

I forgot that I was. Maybe the last one's long winded.

Elizabeth Day (13:17)

It's such a beautiful place to end. And if I can, I would like to give the final words.

Monroe Bergdorf (13:22)

You're like, this is quick fire.

Elizabeth Day (13:23)

I think, no, I never wanted to be quick fire with you. Honestly, I could do this for hours. But I know you've got a fabulous

Elizabeth Day (13:29)

launch to go to.

Elizabeth Day (13:30)

The final word for me would be powerful. You're so powerful. You're powerful in your truth. You're powerful in your words on the page. You're powerful in person. I am so grateful to you for finding time to do how to fail. Honestly. It's meant the world to me.

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