ON FRIENDSHIP… With Dawn French and Vogue Williams

Summary

Podcast Summary: How To Fail With Elizabeth Day

Episode: ON FRIENDSHIP… With Dawn French and Vogue Williams
Date: December 15, 2025
Host: Elizabeth Day
Guests: Vogue Williams and Dawn French

---

Episode Overview

This special throwback episode of How To Fail focuses on the theme of friendship—its joys, challenges, and the hard-learned lessons from moments when things don’t go right. Elizabeth Day revisits insightful conversations with two guests: broadcaster and model Vogue Williams and beloved comedian and writer Dawn French. Each shares personal stories of friendship failures, growth, and what it means to build deep, lasting connections.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Vogue Williams on Friendship “Failures”

• Feeling Lucky, Feeling Guilty

  • Vogue reflects on reading Elizabeth’s book Friendaholic and recognizing herself in its pages. She shares the tension between feeling blessed with lifelong friends, yet not always returning the effort:
    • “I’m so lucky to have so many great friends, but I really feel like I’m not being a good friend to them.” (03:17, Vogue)
    • This inspired Vogue to say “yes” more—attending events and nurturing friendships that had taken a back seat due to children and work.

• Balancing Family, Work, and Friends

  • Vogue openly discusses how motherhood and career shifted her focus away from friendships:
    • “Friendships do feel like a failure to me because I haven’t put them first, definitely in the last, like, six years since I’ve had kids.” (04:44, Vogue)
  • She’s now balancing these priorities, realizing the importance of sustaining friendships for personal happiness.

• Effort and Guilt in Catching Up

  • Vogue and Elizabeth touch on how time and distance dilute contact, but true friends reconnect effortlessly:
    • “When we do see each other, there’s no guilt.” (06:06, Elizabeth)
    • “It was just like, you just pick it up again … everyone’s really busy.” (06:11, Vogue)
  • Honest conversations about absence can actually strengthen bonds.

• Defining Friendship and Making Tough Choices

  • For Vogue, close friends feel “like family” and should bring joy and trust—she is careful with her time and has let go of relationships that were no longer positive:
    • “It has to be like a two way thing. You can’t just be expecting so much of a friend and not giving anything back.” (08:14, Vogue)
  • She’s made deliberate choices to distance herself from people with questionable intentions or toxic dynamics.

• Fame & Friendship Boundaries

  • Elizabeth asks how Vogue manages friendships amid fame. Vogue says she’s good at keeping certain people at “arm’s length” and maintaining boundaries:
    • “There are people … that you kind of keep a little bit at arm’s length. … I see them at events but probably not going to go have a coffee or dinner.” (09:40, Vogue)

• Family as Friends

  • Vogue’s sister Amber is her “best of best friends;” their sibling bond blurs into deep friendship.
  • She jokes about her husband Spencer’s differing approach to friendships and the overlap between their social lives.

• Ending Friendships & Conflict

  • Vogue shares stories of explicitly ending friendships, rejecting “ghosting” and valuing directness:
    • “I don’t understand the ghosting thing … I think just tell them.” (12:38, Vogue)
    • She views clarity and honesty—even if painful—as acts of respect: “Clarity being the ultimate act of love and friendship in a way.” (13:25, Elizabeth)
  • Conflict is addressed head-on: Vogue prefers honest conversations over brushing issues under the rug, unlike her husband.

• Memorable Exchange:

  • Playful talk of friendship therapy and future plans:
    • “If we ever have conflict … we’ll go see a friendship therapist.” (14:35, Elizabeth)
    • “And you’re going to live next door to me. And our bedrooms will look into each other’s windows.” (14:38, Elizabeth)

---

2. Dawn French on Friendship Through “Itinerant” Childhoods and Collaboration

• Military Upbringings & Friendship Skill-Building

  • Dawn describes growing up as an RAF child, frequently moving, always needing to make new friends, and adapting quickly:
    • “You’re constantly putting on a personality fireworks display to make sure that you inveigle yourself into new friendship groups … It’s exhausting.” (15:25, Dawn)
  • She finds relief and kinship in others with similar backgrounds—including Jennifer Saunders.

• First Impressions and Class Barriers with Jennifer Saunders

  • Dawn recounts her initial discomfort with Jennifer, shaped by class divides within military society:
    • “She was an officer’s daughter … I regarded her as out of my league.” (17:47, Dawn)
    • Her “prejudice against posh people” faded once real friendship developed.

• Growing Beyond Prejudices and Learning From Each Other

  • Despite vast differences, Dawn and Jennifer learned to appreciate and love each other deeply, class distinctions melting away:
    • “It was only when we kind of fell in love with each other when we lived together that all of those prejudices melted away.” (20:08, Dawn)

• Platonic Love and Safety in Friendship

  • Recounting their professional and personal partnership, Dawn and Elizabeth discuss the concept of “falling in platonic love” and how safe attachments in friendship can be sustaining:
    • “I think it’s the most sustaining, most consistent love of my life.” (20:50, Elizabeth)

• Working Together Without Rupture

  • Dawn and Jennifer have avoided major rows, thanks to constant temperature checks and unspoken compromise:
    • “We take a sort of constant temperature of each other. So we’ve never got to a difficult row.” (22:10, Dawn)
    • They intuitively sense when to let the other lead, especially in creative collaboration.

• Jealousy and Friendship

  • Dawn addresses envy of a friend’s success, especially Jennifer’s with “Ab Fab,” but describes being able to feel joy for your friend while also recognizing difficult emotions:
    • “You have a cocktail of emotions. … What I’m all for is owning the rather ugly little moments … and explain it to the other person.” (23:47, Dawn)
  • This openness allows for understanding and growth within friendships—likening it to sisterhood.

---

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On the Effort of Friendship:

  • “You can really take your friends for granted, especially if they’ve been your friends for … years. … But it is hard to find time for friends, but it’s so important because they’ll be your constant in your life forever if you nurture them.”
    — Vogue Williams (04:12–05:29)

• On Directness and Ending Friendships:

  • “Clarity being the ultimate act of love and friendship in a way.”
    — Elizabeth Day (13:25)
  • “I don’t understand the ghosting thing. … I think just tell them.”
    — Vogue Williams (12:38)

• On Childhood Shaping Friendships:

  • “You’re constantly putting on a personality fireworks display to make sure you inveigle yourself into new friendship groups. … It’s exhausting.”
    — Dawn French (15:20)

• On Platonic Love:

  • “We kind of fell in love with each other when we lived together and all those prejudices melted away.”
    — Dawn French (20:08)
  • “It’s the most sustaining, most consistent love of my life.”
    — Elizabeth Day (20:50)

• On Jealousy and Friendship:

  • “You have a cocktail of emotions. … owning the rather ugly little moments … and explain it to the other person … they can help you through it.”
    — Dawn French (23:47)

---

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:12–08:32 – Vogue Williams on friendship failures, guilt, and redefining priorities after motherhood
• 08:32–10:00 – Navigating fame, trust, and boundaries in friendships
• 10:33–12:32 – Ending friendships, sister as best friend, and direct conflict
• 12:32–14:21 – Vogue on directness versus ghosting, dealing with conflict
• 15:07–16:58 – Dawn French on military childhood, moving, and friendship survival skills
• 17:12–20:31 – Meeting Jennifer Saunders: class boundaries, first impressions, deepening connection
• 20:43–23:29 – Platonic love, safety in attachment, and professional collaboration
• 23:29–24:35 – Jealousy and honesty in friendship, likened to sibling relationships

---

Conclusion

Both Vogue Williams and Dawn French offer honest, often humorous reflections on failing and learning in friendship—whether it’s neglecting old friends, navigating fame, confronting hard truths, or overcoming childhood insecurities. Through their stories, the episode champions the value of vulnerability, directness, and the joy found in nurturing lifelong relationships.

A fail shared is a fail halved—as Elizabeth Day’s podcast joyfully proves.

Transcript

[Elizabeth Day]

This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. Now I know a little bit about building a website because I was pretty hands on when I launched my own production company and its own website. And I wish Squarespace had been around then because it ultimately makes your life so much easier by providing built in solutions all with their best in class design. And I'm not the only one who feels this. Hackney Moves who run the iconic Hackney Marathon and the Dusty Knuckle Bakery and Cafe also both use Squarespace. Some of my favorite things about Squarespace include the fact that they make it easier for your customers. Checkout is seamless, invoicing is easy, you can sell exclusive content on your site by adding a paywall to sell memberships or courses, and you can create a bespoke online presence that perfectly fits your brand. Head to squarespace.com for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use offer code FAIL10 to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Have you got an idea for a business in your head, but never felt like it's quite the right time to launch into it? Perhaps it's a design craft or just this brilliant idea you've always wanted to develop but haven't yet gone for it? Well, January is the perfect time to grab the bull by the horns and finally launch and be your own boss. And you're not on your own. Shopify is here to help. Millions of entrepreneurs have already made this leap from household names to first time business owners just getting started and mass massive brands like Heinz, Mattel and even Hailey Bieber's Brand Road all use Shopify. If Hailey Bieber's doing it, I want it to. With Shopify's built in AI tools, marketing and beautiful templates, you can reach customers wherever they scroll. In 2026, stop waiting and start selling with Shopify. Sign up for your pound one per month trial and start selling today at shopify.co.uk fail. Go to shopify.co.uk fail. Hear your first this new year with Shopify by your side. Hello and welcome to this week's throwback how to Fail where I take a look at two past episodes on an interesting theme. This week it's one of my personal favorites. It's friendship. You're going to hear from Vogue Williams who recently left the jungle on I'm a Celebrity and before she went on that show she came on how to Fail and spoke spoke so eloquently about how she feels really lucky to have a lot of great friends, but she doesn't always feel like she's a particularly good friend in return. Still, she is working on it, and that's all we can ask. Meanwhile, Dawn French grew up as an RAF child, so her family moved around a lot, making maintaining friendships quite challenging. She talks openly about her friendship with Jennifer Saunders and how they didn't actually like each other at first. And she discusses her closest friends. First up, it's Vogue. Your final failure is friendship failures.

[Vogue Williams]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Day]

Why did you choose this?

[Vogue Williams]

This is because of you. It is. So I read your book. I loved it. Friendaholic. And I think that anyone who has read it, it touches a nerve with everyone. Cause it's like, it makes you just see so much of yourself within what you're saying about your friends. And I really, when I was reading it, I was like, God, I'm so lucky to have so many great friends, but I really feel like I'm not being a good friend to them. And because of you, I just went to a baby Sharon Leeds last week, which I would have said no to, but I had. So it's one of my really close friends from home, and she's having a baby. She lives in Leeds. And, like, I've never made the effort to go and even see her in Leeds, and I'm only in London. And I was like, no, I'm gonna do it. Cause after reading your book, I was like, I'm being such a bad friend. And I had such a great time, and loads of my friends had come over from Dublin, and it was really nice. And now I' said yes to two weddings. You've got me really busy. But I think.

[Elizabeth Day]

I'm sorry. But also, I'm so proud of you.

[Vogue Williams]

I know. It's so good to be. Because I think that you can really take your friends for granted, especially if they've been your friends for, like, I've got, like, some of my best friends are my friends since I was 12. They're probably my longest friends. And then, like, I'm lucky with Joanne. Joanne and I have been friends since. Since I am, like, 18, I think. And we spend time together because we have our podcast together. So that's how we kind of see each other. But even with the two of us, we're kind of like, right, we need to, like, doing fun things together. Can't just be about work. So we were out last night, and tonight we're going to Magic Mike.

[Elizabeth Day]

Fun.

[Vogue Williams]

I know. I can't wait. But I think friendships do feel like a failure to me because I haven't put them first, definitely in the last, like, six years since I've had kids. I think when I had kids, it was family, work, and then friendships, like, in and around it sometimes. And now I'm trying to just have better friendships and, like, look after the friends that I have because they're so important to me. And even, like, we went on holidays at Easter and we had, like, one group of friends the first week and another group of friends the second week. And it was. It was really nice to just get to spend time with people like that. But it is hard to. To find time for friends, but it's so important because they're the ones that they'll be. You're constant in your life forever if you nurture them. And that was actually down to your book.

[Elizabeth Day]

Oh, thank you so much for saying that. And in a sense, even though I didn't have my own children, that phase of my friends having their children was really challenging for certain friendships because obvious, your attention is focused in different directions and life is busy and it can be really hard to carve out a space. But I think with the friendships that I most value, there's that generosity of spirit that I write about in the book where our default is to think the best of each other and to acknowledge that we might not see each other as much as we'd like because there are so many competing factors in our diaries. But when we do see each other, there's no guilt.

[Vogue Williams]

That's the key.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes.

[Vogue Williams]

Like, and even with, like, when I saw the girls from home at the baby shower, like, there was. It was just like, you just pick it up again and you don't want to have that guilt because you do feel guilty about it. But then when I was speaking to them, I was like, oh, are you guys always hanging out and stuff? And they were like, no, we never see each other because life gets in the way. And, like, everyone's really busy. But I think it is important. But, like, for me as well, it's really important to have separate friends. To Spano as well. Like, of course he's friendly with all my friends as well. But, like, I like having my own friendship groups where I go off and. Because he doesn't want to do all the things that I want to do and vice versa.

[Elizabeth Day]

But it's even important that you had that conversation with your friends back because you were clearly feeling, A, guilty, but B, like, you had a fear that they were all carrying on their friendships without you in a way, because you hadn't shown up. And actually to have that really honest conversation brings you closer. Like, of course we're not hanging out all the time and it's just so lovely to see you. And then that, that kind of gives you impetus to keep going then for a few more months and. Yeah, but what for you is friendship? Like, how would you define it? What for you makes a good friendship?

[Vogue Williams]

A lot of my friends like, well, actually pretty much all of my friends other than those that I would consider friends, but more acquaintances kind of thing would, would feel like family to me. So they really would feel as close as that. And it's friends or people who are just there for you. Like when you need them, you're there for them and they have to bring like a joy into your life as well. Like I've had friends that, that I've had to remove from my life and some people that I really like and I just thought you're just, you're not bringing what I need into my life, you're just kind of bringing. I just. If you can't trust somebody as well, I think that's, it's, it's really strange when you think that somebody has a different agenda. I'm just really, I'm very considerate of who I want to spend my time with because time is short. Like you don't have that much free time, particularly when you're working and stuff like that. And I think it's important to spend it with people who just bring you happiness and add to your happiness and you add to their happiness. It has to be like a two way thing. You can't just be expecting so much of a friend and not giving anything back, but it's something that you should want to give back without even trying.

[Elizabeth Day]

How has being famous affected your friendships? Because you are someone who is instantly recognizable visually and through your voice, and also someone who thousands of people want to be friends with and potentially myself included, putting myself at the top of that list. But also maybe even think they are friends with you. Definitely myself included, because there's an intimacy to podcasting and to reality TV where you constantly show up as yourself. And so is that a struggle sometimes maintaining boundaries? Because people want to be your friend and you're very. You have to be selective about who is actually allowed in.

[Vogue Williams]

I think that I'm quite clever about it and I don't think that I've had to try that hard with it. There's definitely been a couple of people that I've let in where I'm like, I shouldn't have let you in. But I Don't hold bad feelings towards those people. It just isn't a friendship that I would want to continue. But there are people that I would have in my life, and you have some in your book as well that you kind of keep a little bit at arm's length. Because although you like spending time in their company, they're probably not really great for you as well.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes, but how do you do that? How do you keep them at arm's length?

[Vogue Williams]

I kind of. They're not people. They're people that I'd see at things.

[Elizabeth Day]

Okay, so I wouldn't. So you wouldn't continue the communication via WhatsApp afterwards or.

[Vogue Williams]

No, not too much. Maybe a tiny bit of communication, but they wouldn't be. I'd see them at events and stuff like that, but they're probably not somebody that I'm gonna go, oh, let's go hang out and let's go have a coffee or let's go for dinner.

[Elizabeth Day]

And what about Spencer's attitude to friendship? Is that different from yours?

[Vogue Williams]

He's like your husband Justin, where he pretends he has no friends, but he has loads of friends. Sveni will like, tell you that I don't care about friends. I don't have any friends. And it's like, Spencer, like, you've so many friends. And he kind of laughed. He loves new people, so, like, he'll have a flavor. He can't help himself. But he does have, like. He's very close to my brother Alexander. He lives with us. He loves his company. He loves my cousin Killian. So it's a real problem. Spencer and I ever break up because they're coming with me.

[Elizabeth Day]

Do you think you're sister Amber is one of your best friends? Is there a difference between being someone's sibling, being related to them and being a friend?

[Vogue Williams]

I don't really feel like that. I really feel like she's my best friend. But she's somebody who will get away with whatever she does. She'll always get away with it. Where I think is if you have a friend who really does something that they shouldn't do, you'd probably say, listen, I'm kind of out. Whereas with a sister, they can do whatever they want. But Amber and I have been best friends since we were very small. We've always spent all our time together. We ring each other honestly about four or five times a day. We're always on to each other. And she really is a very. She's my best of best friends. Spencer hates me saying that because he's Like, I'm your best friend, like Amber is.

[Elizabeth Day]

You mentioned earlier about some friendships that have fallen by the wayside. Have you ever had to end a friendship and have you ever actually addressed that conflict head on?

[Vogue Williams]

I have had about three friendships that ended. One was a very long standing friendship. And it just, you know what, how long would it be now? It's been about five years now. But it was just one of those things. And like, I know that she's happy, I know that I'm happy. But there wasn't like a huge conversation around it. It was kind of like a falling out by the end of it. But I could feel it coming for a while. And so that stopped. And like you feel kind of sad because you're like, God, we spent so much time together. But like, again, life just goes on. It's. There's no bad feelings, I think on either part for sure. Now and then other friendships, avengers. Because like, there was a kind of little trust trust issue where I'm just like, I don't know about you now. And also sometimes when people surround themselves with people that aren't good people, you're like, oh, you kind of have to question why that they are. That they want to do that when you know it's not even good for them. So sometimes that happens as well.

[Elizabeth Day]

And do you tend to just then drop out of communication or.

[Vogue Williams]

You know, I would let them know.

[Elizabeth Day]

You'd let them know?

[Vogue Williams]

Yeah. Excuse me. We are not friends anymore.

[Elizabeth Day]

That's so, that's so admirable.

[Vogue Williams]

I think. Well, it's happened so rarely that like. And there's always been reasons for it happening that it's kind of. You can't really do. I, I don't understand the ghosting thing. Like that friend in your book who ghosted you. I found that like, I find it really strange to do something like that to somebody. I think like even ghosting when you're like, I've been ghosted when I was kind of gone out with somebody and I was mad about him and then all of a sudden it was just like less and less and less. And I think it's the meanest thing to do to somebody. I just think it's like a real cowardly. Although people think they're being nice by doing it that way, whereas I just think, just tell them.

[Elizabeth Day]

So you have told someone, I'm sorry, I don't trust you anymore. So I don't feel safe in this friendship. That's actually amazing.

[Vogue Williams]

Yeah. I mean there were reasons behind it face to face.

[Elizabeth Day]

Face to face.

[Vogue Williams]

No, it was on the phone.

[Elizabeth Day]

Okay.

[Vogue Williams]

But there are reasons behind it.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes. Yeah, I think that's really. Sorry. You're speaking to someone who is historically so conflict avoidant. That, that for me is just mind blowing and really admirable. But I think that there's something really important here about clarity being the ultimate act of love and friendship in a way. So you are ending the friendship in the most loving way by being clear.

[Vogue Williams]

Yeah. And then everyone knows where they stand. And like, I always think, no matter what happens, I think it's really sad to lose a friends. But I think even with conflict, like, I, I don't love conflict. I, I, I'd be very rational with stuff. And like, I, I like talking about things. I don't, I, I'm not a. Like, Spencer brushes everything under the rug. Like, everything. We could have an argument and he's like, oh, oh, are you still annoyed about that? Like, I'm done with that. I'm like, but we haven't spoken about it. And he's like, no, I'm finished with that now. And I'm like, no, that, that's not how I work. I have to sit and chat, chat things through. And he hates doing that as well.

[Elizabeth Day]

Well, I'm relieved that I am, actually. I'm weaseling my way into your friendship.

[Vogue Williams]

I need to weasel your.

[Elizabeth Day]

In vogue. Thank you. You're in mine.

[Vogue Williams]

Genuinely.

[Elizabeth Day]

And if we ever have conflict, which we never will, ever, ever, we'll go.

[Vogue Williams]

See a therapist together.

[Elizabeth Day]

We'll go and see a friendship therapist.

[Vogue Williams]

Exactly.

[Elizabeth Day]

And you're going to live next door to me. And our bedrooms will look into each other's windows.

[Vogue Williams]

I can't wait.

[Dawn French]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Day]

And your stepfather will come and read the Hobbit in between our two bedrooms.

[Vogue Williams]

And give out to us as well and make us Hoover the house.

[Elizabeth Day]

I can't wait.

[Dawn French]

I can'.

[Elizabeth Day]

And what is it about military childhoods? Because you were the daughter of someone who worked for the raf. So was Jennifer Saunders and Aid Edmondson. His parents were in the military, was.

[Dawn French]

A teacher, but worked with the army, I think. Yes, yes. And then there's Abby, who we employed at Saunders and French, which was our company. We saw a lot of people come and be a PA for us, or factotum, as she called herself. We chose her immediately because she had an RAF background. So you're drawn to other people. I mean, I didn't know that about Jennifer when I first met her, but, you know, the more I loved her, the more I realized this is part of why I loved her. It's because you have this itinerant childhood, because you are constantly moving. You've never lived in the same house for longer than a year, you've never had the same friends for longer than a year. You're constantly putting on a personality fireworks display to make sure that you inveigle yourself into new friendship groups and you're not bullied or rejected. So you learn a bit of sort of social manners and you learn techniques. It's exhausting, actually. It's exhausting. And my mother used to say that I was a sleepwalker and I think that was where perhaps it showed. The stress of it showed as a child. I didn't rest easy, I don't think. But it teaches you to be gregarious and to be ready for new adventures. If you like people who have moved around a lot, people who understand the weird class system that exists inside the military. Oh, I don't know. There are so many things about how you live where you live in particular kinds of houses and you move from that house to another camp in another part of the country, but to a house that looks exactly the same with the same furniture, but now new people, you know, and you can never quite keep a dog and you can never, you know, it's. You're moving and you're abroad and then your dad's away from you for two years and, you know, it's all very weird. And so it's a relief when you meet other people who've had the same experience because you don't have to explain it.

[Elizabeth Day]

What do you think? French and Saunders and your. Your long, long collaboration, both personal professional with Jennifer, who I know you call Fatty Saunders. Yes. What do you think it's taught you about friendship?

[Dawn French]

Oh, goodness, so much. Well, you know, first of all, as you said, we did not really like each other on first sight.

[Vogue Williams]

We're very different.

[Dawn French]

We still are very different. I believe we're from different classes, if that still is even a conversation. I know it's more of a mushy scenario these days when I talk to my kids about class, they don't know what I'm talking about. They literally don't understand what I mean.

[Elizabeth Day]

But I think it's still very. It's implied now rather than spoken about openly. But the fact that we constantly vote old Datonians into office would suggest that there's some dispositions.

[Dawn French]

Exactly, isn't it? Yeah. So when I met Jennifer, I mean, you know, I regarded her as out of my league entirely for lots of reasons. She Was seemingly confident. Seemingly. She was very beautiful. She was an officer's daughter. Now, when you are in the military, these ranks mean everything. The officers live at the other end of the camp. They have detached houses. They have houses with bathrooms, with sinks in. You know, there are huge things that make you very different from them. And so I'm part of the OIK end of the camp. And really I didn't mix with the officers kids. And suddenly she was an officer's kid. So I was thinking, you're not the type I mix with. Slightly plummy voice. But I was so wrong. You know, this is why you should never judge the book. Never do that. And I have a prejudice against posh people. I realize I've always had it and I still think I have it a little bit. A posh person has to kind of earn my respect before I can freely give it in a way I would to somebody else. Which is mad, really. And I should have learned these lessons by now. But as soon as we were friends and we shared a flat together, then I thought, oh, that's ludicrous. But she did different things to me. She was invited to things called drinks parties. She would get invitations, proper embossed invitations, and they'd be on the mantelpiece and they'd say, you know, Jennifer is invited by Fifi bloody Blue. You know, somebody Double Barrel, two drinks in Chelsea between six and eight on Wednesday. And I think, what is that? Who is Fiddly Buddily? Who is she? Why only drinks?

[Vogue Williams]

Well, you're not gonna have your tea.

[Dawn French]

You'Re not gonna have anything to eat. Why are you going for drinks? What drink? What's standing about and drinking? This is not something I'd ever heard of. And I went to a couple of these things with her and they were pretty horrendous. But these were young people mimicking their parents behavior of having their friends around for drinks. You know, this was not something I'd ever heard of, you know. So she showed me all kinds of things like that. And I know that I was just. I was very chippy and I think I was a bit blunt. I also. My dad had just died and I was dripping with grief and trying to cover that up. So I think I was not quite entirely authentic really. But she understood that with time. So, yeah, we were very, very different. And. And it was only when we kind of fell in love with each other when we lived together that all of those prejudices melted away.

[Elizabeth Day]

I love that language. Falling in platonic love. It's so important. Absolutely I don't want to gloss over the fact that your father died by suicide. And we'll come back to that. I'm so sorry you went through that at that age.

[Dawn French]

Thank you.

[Elizabeth Day]

A lot of what you say about Jennifer, I can apply to my own best friend. We didn't like each other. I didn't really like her at first sight. Thought she seemed really confident. I was like, she's not going to be for the likes of me. And I think it's the most sustaining, most consistent love of my life. And I think the thing that Emma has taught me is that there's great safety in our attachment. So we can have periods where we've had like one rupture that was then repaired and made us closer. Yes.

[Vogue Williams]

Okay.

[Elizabeth Day]

Have you experienced that with Jennifer?

[Dawn French]

Yes, but you've got to remember Jennifer is my very, very, very close friend. But I also have a bestie.

[Elizabeth Day]

Okay.

[Dawn French]

That's aside from Jennifer. In fact, I have other friends as well. So I have a little group, a little caucus of really beloved, valuable female friends. And probably in that I put a couple. A gay friend too, a gay man who is honorary woman in that gang of people that, as you say, I feel entirely safe with, who know me inside out and who support me inside out and for whom I would support them in exactly the same way. But Jennifer is right up there. And yes, I think I've never had a rupture. Your word with Jennifer. I have with my bestie, which we similarly recovered from and learnt from. And it was incredibly painful because you can't believe that you would have such a tearing with somebody you love so much. But of course that's when it's going to hurt because you love them so much. But Jennifer and I have a different kind of system. And I think it's because we work together as well as play together, which is that we take a sort of constant temperature of each other. So we never have got to a difficult row. We've never had a row. We might have had a bit of sulking and even that. I can hardly remember any of that. We seem to have a kind of innate compromise kind of gauge. And I think this comes from working together. So because we're writing together, we understand what the other person is contributing and who came up with the idea and who's writing it down and who's had the most to do with it. But we will get to a moment when I can think of one sketch we did, particularly where I had quite strong feelings about the way it should go. And she had strong feelings the other way. And it was as if I thought, you know, I took the temperature at that moment. Thought actually she wrote this. It was her idea. This is the time to surrender, you know, give in. This is her baby. I need to follow here and she does the same for me. And I don't even know how we navigate it, but we do. And that is a testament to strong, empowering female understanding friendships.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes. I also love something you've said in the past about how you might have felt jealous about the ab fab success that Jennifer had, but because you loved her so much, the pride overwhelmed the jealousy. You could feel both things and actually the positive went out. I've never heard someone put that into words before and it's so true.

[Dawn French]

Well, you have a cocktail of emotions. That's what you have. And I'm imagining it's very akin to what being a sister is like. I don't have a sister. I've got a sister in law who I love very much, but I don't have a sister. And I'm imagining this must be what sisters have to navigate all the time. You know, who's the favorite, who's the most successful, who's managed this, who's. Does the other one feel failed because this one has succeeded? I imagine it's a bit like that, like a sisterhood. And so, yeah, again, what I'm all for is owning the rather ugly little moments of jealousy or failure or anything you're feeling that's a bit difficult and explain it to the other person because we're all human and if that other person has it explained to them, they can help you through it. It's so much easier.

[Elizabeth Day]

So much easier. And then he had the vicar of Dibley anyway, so who's laughing now? Please do follow how to fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends this is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Make their holiday unforgettable with a gift that says it all from Pandora Jewelry. A gift that tells a story and shows you know theirs that doesn't just sparkle, but speaks. This season, give a gift that's perfectly theirs. Whether you're shopping for a shiny surprise for your significant other, matching bracelets to celebrate your friendship or a heartfelt gift for a family member. Say more this holiday season with pandora. [e-mail] or your local Pandora store.