How To Fail with Elizabeth Day

Episode: ON GRIEF… With Mo Gawdat and Bonnie Tyler
Release Date: September 14, 2025
Host: Elizabeth Day
Guests: Mo Gawdat, Bonnie Tyler
Theme: Facing and learning from grief – personal stories, wisdom, acceptance, and hope

Episode Overview

In this specially themed episode, Elizabeth Day revisits conversations on the subject of grief, focusing on how loss shapes us and what can be learned from it. Featuring two moving segments—a discussion with former Google X executive and happiness advocate Mo Gawdat about the loss of his son, and a heartfelt conversation with singer Bonnie Tyler about her family’s bereavements—this episode navigates through pain and love in the face of loss. The approaches differ but ultimately offer insight, compassion, and hope.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Introduction to the Theme: Grief

• Elizabeth introduces the episode (02:09) by explaining her intent to revisit some of the podcast’s most resonant conversations, this week themed around the universal subject of grief.
• She frames the episode as both raw and uplifting, showing how people process loss differently but can find meaning in it.

Segment 1: Mo Gawdat on the Death of His Son, Ali

(Main discussion: 03:26–08:58)

Reframing the Mindset Around Grief

• Mo uses the analogy of "Becky" as an annoying, critical thought pattern in the brain, personifying intrusive, unhelpful self-talk and showing how to challenge those thoughts.
• He distinguishes between three types of thought:
  • Incessant thinking: "Basically your brain sounding the siren. Something's wrong, something's wrong." (04:18)
  • Insightful thinking: When you solve a problem.
  • Experiential thinking: When you observe the world as it is.

Taking Charge of Your Thoughts

• Mo emphasizes the importance of becoming "the boss" of your mind:
  • “Anything else? I say, Becky, stop. Behave. Useful thinking. If my brain tells me, you should have driven him to another hospital, I basically say to my brain, I cannot do this right now. Do you have something you want to tell me that I can do?” (06:38)
• Explains the futility of "incessant thinking" about what cannot be changed and the need to focus on useful or joyful thoughts.

Pain vs. Suffering

• Mo: "Pain is different than suffering. Pain is: I remember him. I feel that I miss him. Suffering is my brain telling me, you should have driven him to another hospital. And my brain did, by the way." (06:04)

Embracing Positive Memories

• Mo shares his tool for joy: “Ali died is a horribly painful thought. Ali lived is the same thought, but it's a beautiful thought.” (07:54)
• He refuses to exchange the pain for the years of joy:
  • “Even if you tell me, ‘We’ll take away your pain for losing your son,’ I wouldn't. I want him. I want the 21 years.” (08:25)

Notable Quote

• "That's me telling my brain to take charge so that if there is something we can do, we do it. If there isn't, then don't torture me, because there is no point to torture me if there is nothing I can do about it." (08:48)

Segment 2: Bonnie Tyler on Family Loss and Treasured Memories

(Main discussion: 09:18–13:36)

Losses in the Family

• Bonnie recounts the story of her stillborn sister Pauline and her mother’s grief:
  • "My mother never ever got over Pauline dying... she was full term, nine months… It must have been traumatic. But she never really showed us her pain." (09:22)
• Her mother always counted Pauline as a child, showing the profound, ongoing nature of this loss.

The Loss of Her Brother Lynn

• Bonnie mourns her eldest brother who passed unexpectedly:
  • "He wasn't ready to go. He was enjoying his life… and he just died in his sleep." (10:28)
  • She relates to her mother’s trauma more deeply after experiencing such a loss herself.

Connection and Continuity

• Bonnie: “At least he's with my mother and father now, and Pauline…” (11:02)
• There’s a sense of comfort that loved ones are reunited.

The Father Christmas Napkin Story

• A touching anecdote about her mother, nearing the effects of Alzheimer’s, asking Bonnie to place a special napkin in her coffin so she could "give Pauline something when I get there."
  • “She folded it up into, like, a little triangle… and she said, ‘When I go, please put this in my coffin. Because I want to give Pauline something when I get there.’” (11:36–12:18)
• Illustrates the enduring bonds of love and ways people create meaning and maintain connections after loss.

Notable Quote

• “Oh, I had the best mother in the world, though. I know we all say we got the best mother, but I did. She was an angel.” (13:23)

Memorable Moments & Quotes

• Mo Gawdat, on challenging negative self-talk:

  • "If you have a friend in school, Becky, who was so annoying... would you listen to Becky when she speaks? What would you do with Becky when she starts to do that? You'll say, ‘No, Becky, please don't do this to me.’... That's exactly what our brains do." (03:26)

• On pain and memory:

  • "Ali died is a horribly painful thought. Ali lived is the same thought, but it's a beautiful thought." (07:54)

• Bonnie Tyler, on her mother’s love and lasting grief:

  • “She always counted Pauline, you know, and actually in 20, my brother, my eldest brother died…” (09:33)

• Bonnie on the napkin ritual:

  • “She said, ‘I want you to put it in my coffin... Because I want to give Pauline something when I get there.’” (12:15)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:09 | Elizabeth introduces the grief theme and episode structure
• 03:26 – 08:58 | Mo Gawdat on reframing grief, pain vs. suffering, and the power of chosen thoughts
• 09:18 – 13:36 | Bonnie Tyler shares family memories: loss, ritual, and love
• 11:36 – 12:18 | Bonnie’s "Father Christmas napkin" story – a symbol of love persisting beyond death

Conclusion

This episode of "How To Fail" offers intimate, powerful windows into how two people navigate devastating loss. Mo Gawdat’s philosophical, almost neuroscientific approach gives listeners a model for handling incessant painful thoughts, distinguishing between suffering and the pain of love. Bonnie Tyler’s stories, meanwhile, overflow with familial love, ritual, and the enduring impact of parental loss, rendering grief both personal and universal.

Together, these conversations affirm that while grief is unbidden and often overwhelming, it can also become a space for honoring love, cherishing memories, and—eventually—finding strength and solace.