ON GRIEF… With Mo Gawdat and Bonnie Tyler

Summary

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How To Fail with Elizabeth Day

Episode: ON GRIEF… With Mo Gawdat and Bonnie Tyler
Release Date: September 14, 2025
Host: Elizabeth Day
Guests: Mo Gawdat, Bonnie Tyler
Theme: Facing and learning from grief – personal stories, wisdom, acceptance, and hope

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Episode Overview

In this specially themed episode, Elizabeth Day revisits conversations on the subject of grief, focusing on how loss shapes us and what can be learned from it. Featuring two moving segments—a discussion with former Google X executive and happiness advocate Mo Gawdat about the loss of his son, and a heartfelt conversation with singer Bonnie Tyler about her family’s bereavements—this episode navigates through pain and love in the face of loss. The approaches differ but ultimately offer insight, compassion, and hope.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Introduction to the Theme: Grief

• Elizabeth introduces the episode (02:09) by explaining her intent to revisit some of the podcast’s most resonant conversations, this week themed around the universal subject of grief.
• She frames the episode as both raw and uplifting, showing how people process loss differently but can find meaning in it.

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Segment 1: Mo Gawdat on the Death of His Son, Ali

(Main discussion: 03:26–08:58)

Reframing the Mindset Around Grief

• Mo uses the analogy of "Becky" as an annoying, critical thought pattern in the brain, personifying intrusive, unhelpful self-talk and showing how to challenge those thoughts.
• He distinguishes between three types of thought:
  • Incessant thinking: "Basically your brain sounding the siren. Something's wrong, something's wrong." (04:18)
  • Insightful thinking: When you solve a problem.
  • Experiential thinking: When you observe the world as it is.

Taking Charge of Your Thoughts

• Mo emphasizes the importance of becoming "the boss" of your mind:
  • “Anything else? I say, Becky, stop. Behave. Useful thinking. If my brain tells me, you should have driven him to another hospital, I basically say to my brain, I cannot do this right now. Do you have something you want to tell me that I can do?” (06:38)
• Explains the futility of "incessant thinking" about what cannot be changed and the need to focus on useful or joyful thoughts.

Pain vs. Suffering

• Mo: "Pain is different than suffering. Pain is: I remember him. I feel that I miss him. Suffering is my brain telling me, you should have driven him to another hospital. And my brain did, by the way." (06:04)

Embracing Positive Memories

• Mo shares his tool for joy: “Ali died is a horribly painful thought. Ali lived is the same thought, but it's a beautiful thought.” (07:54)
• He refuses to exchange the pain for the years of joy:
  • “Even if you tell me, ‘We’ll take away your pain for losing your son,’ I wouldn't. I want him. I want the 21 years.” (08:25)

Notable Quote

• "That's me telling my brain to take charge so that if there is something we can do, we do it. If there isn't, then don't torture me, because there is no point to torture me if there is nothing I can do about it." (08:48)

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Segment 2: Bonnie Tyler on Family Loss and Treasured Memories

(Main discussion: 09:18–13:36)

Losses in the Family

• Bonnie recounts the story of her stillborn sister Pauline and her mother’s grief:
  • "My mother never ever got over Pauline dying... she was full term, nine months… It must have been traumatic. But she never really showed us her pain." (09:22)
• Her mother always counted Pauline as a child, showing the profound, ongoing nature of this loss.

The Loss of Her Brother Lynn

• Bonnie mourns her eldest brother who passed unexpectedly:
  • "He wasn't ready to go. He was enjoying his life… and he just died in his sleep." (10:28)
  • She relates to her mother’s trauma more deeply after experiencing such a loss herself.

Connection and Continuity

• Bonnie: “At least he's with my mother and father now, and Pauline…” (11:02)
• There’s a sense of comfort that loved ones are reunited.

The Father Christmas Napkin Story

• A touching anecdote about her mother, nearing the effects of Alzheimer’s, asking Bonnie to place a special napkin in her coffin so she could "give Pauline something when I get there."
  • “She folded it up into, like, a little triangle… and she said, ‘When I go, please put this in my coffin. Because I want to give Pauline something when I get there.’” (11:36–12:18)
• Illustrates the enduring bonds of love and ways people create meaning and maintain connections after loss.

Notable Quote

• “Oh, I had the best mother in the world, though. I know we all say we got the best mother, but I did. She was an angel.” (13:23)

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• Mo Gawdat, on challenging negative self-talk:

  • "If you have a friend in school, Becky, who was so annoying... would you listen to Becky when she speaks? What would you do with Becky when she starts to do that? You'll say, ‘No, Becky, please don't do this to me.’... That's exactly what our brains do." (03:26)

• On pain and memory:

  • "Ali died is a horribly painful thought. Ali lived is the same thought, but it's a beautiful thought." (07:54)

• Bonnie Tyler, on her mother’s love and lasting grief:

  • “She always counted Pauline, you know, and actually in 20, my brother, my eldest brother died…” (09:33)

• Bonnie on the napkin ritual:

  • “She said, ‘I want you to put it in my coffin... Because I want to give Pauline something when I get there.’” (12:15)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:09 | Elizabeth introduces the grief theme and episode structure
• 03:26 – 08:58 | Mo Gawdat on reframing grief, pain vs. suffering, and the power of chosen thoughts
• 09:18 – 13:36 | Bonnie Tyler shares family memories: loss, ritual, and love
• 11:36 – 12:18 | Bonnie’s "Father Christmas napkin" story – a symbol of love persisting beyond death

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Conclusion

This episode of "How To Fail" offers intimate, powerful windows into how two people navigate devastating loss. Mo Gawdat’s philosophical, almost neuroscientific approach gives listeners a model for handling incessant painful thoughts, distinguishing between suffering and the pain of love. Bonnie Tyler’s stories, meanwhile, overflow with familial love, ritual, and the enduring impact of parental loss, rendering grief both personal and universal.

Together, these conversations affirm that while grief is unbidden and often overwhelming, it can also become a space for honoring love, cherishing memories, and—eventually—finding strength and solace.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Foreign.

[A]

Welcome to your now twice weekly dose of how to fail. Don't say I never spoil you.

[B]

You're welcome.

[A]

With a brilliant back catalogue and years worth of content and conversations, I wanted to revisit some of the most meaningful and powerful conversations. I know that these episodes have resonated with you because I hear from you all of the time about how certain insight nights or moments have really shaped how you see life and have made you feel less alone. And it felt to me that maybe the best way of doing this was by theming the episodes and exploring different topics. So this week we're exploring a big one. We're exploring grief. First we hear from one of our favorite guests of all time, the incredible Mo Gawdat, who talks in the most inspiring way about how he managed to Reframe his mindset around his son Ali's death. Secondly, Bonnie Tyler speaks about her mum losing her daughter Bonnie's sister. These stories are raw, moving, unflinching, and in their own ways, beautifully uplifting. I hope they resonate with you as much as they did and do with me.

[C]

Now here's the trick. If you had a friend, I apologize. If anyone listening to us is called Becky, I call my brain Becky. Okay? If you have a friend in school, Becky, who was so annoying she showed up every seven minutes, told you awful things about yourself, made you feel horrible, and then left with no positive impact whatsoever on your life, would you wake up the next morning, go to school and say, I miss Becky. Would you listen to Becky when she speaks? What would you do with Becky when she starts to do that? You'll say, no, Becky, please don't do this to me. If Becky starts to tell you weird lies, you'll say, becky, do you have any evidence to back this up? Right, if Becky doesn't, Becky is a third party. You would say, becky, this is crap. You don't have the right to waste my life on crap. And that's exactly what our brains do. I stop in the middle of a conversation, I say to myself, becky, what did you just say? Now here's the interesting thing. It's not you talking to you. It's a biological organ talking to you. As horrible as that sounds, it's a three pound lump of meat. Okay? The other interesting side of this is the following. If I give you a Ferrari, Ferraris are horrible cars. If I give you a really good car, okay, and you know, I tell you to go around the track with that car and you don't know how to drive, you're going to kill yourself and everyone else. Understand how that brain works. Now, we think there is one type of thought. As a matter of fact, there are three types of thought. The type of thought that makes us unhappy is incessant thinking. Incessant thinking is basically your brain sounding the siren. Something's wrong, something's wrong, something's wrong. That incessant thinking doesn't lead to anything, doesn't change anything in the real world. It happens in the midline areas of your brain. There are two other types of thoughts that are useful. One of them is insightful thinking and the other is experiential thinking. Insightful thinking is when you solve a problem. Experiential thinking is when you observe the world, world as it is, okay? Those happen mostly on the right hand side of the brain. Some in the prefrontal cortex, some in the insula, and so on. Those kinds of thoughts are the thoughts you should allow your brain to give you. And by the way, that's the attitude we use at work. If someone walks into my office and complains, I don't let them complain incessantly. Midway, I say, is there any information we're missing about this? Should we look at this differently? This is insightful thinking, okay? And experiential thinking. This is basically looking at the world as it is. Then I ask, what can we do about it? And that's exactly what I do with my brain. Ali, my son leaves our world, okay? People think that I'm not given a choice. I am given two choices. One of them is to cry for the rest of my Life. And then 27 years later, when I'm on my deathbed, Ali will still not be there. Is that a wise choice? The other is to do something about it that doesn't bring him back. Nothing's going to bring him back. It's the truth. He left, right? But what I can do is I at least can make my life a little better and his life and the life of a billion people a little better than the day he left. Isn't that a better way of doing it? Now, of course I feel pain. I miss him tremendously. But pain doesn't dictate how my brain tortures me. Pain is different than suffering. Pain is. I remember him. I feel that I miss him. Suffering is my brain telling me, you should have driven him to another hospital. And my brain did, by the way. Okay, I allow my brain only two types of thought. One is useful thinking, and the other is joyful thinking. Anything else? I say, becky, stop behave. Useful thinking. If my brain tells me, you should have driven him to another hospital, I basically say to my brain, I cannot do this right now. Do you have something you want to tell me that I can do? I wish I could, but I cannot. Give me a useful thought. So my brain says, why don't we write the happiness model we learned with him, share it with 10 million people was the original target. And make 10 million people remember him and love him and send him a happy wish. That would be a good way to honor him. Great. That's a great idea, brain. Thank you. That's how we should think, right? Or a joyful thought. Until today, I promise you, three to four times a week, I wake up in the morning or I go to bed at night, and the only thought that comes to my head is, ali died. He's part of my heart. It's just I feel that part of me is missing. Right? I answer in a very simple way and I say, yes, brain, but Ali also lived. Do you understand that Ali died is a horribly painful thought. Ali lived is the same thought, but it's a beautiful thought. It's 21 years of joy, of wisdom, of learning, of insightful discoveries, of memories of him taking care of AI Leia, taking care of me, taking care of his mother that I wouldn't replace for anything. Honestly, even if you tell me will take away your pain for losing your son, I wouldn't say, no, no, no, hold on. I want him. I want the 21 years. Don't lie to me, brain. Don't lie to me. But think about those. Because when I say Ali lived, I start to get memories that are all happy, all joyful, all things that we did together. That's me being the boss. That's me telling my brain to take charge so that if there is something we can do, we do it. If there isn't, then don't torture me. Because there is no point to torture me if there is nothing I can do about it.

[A]

Mo, that is so beautiful. Thank you so much for expressing that with such eloquence and passion. You say you have three sisters and two bro. Yeah, There was another sister.

[B]

Oh, yes. Pauline. Yeah. Pauline was stillborn. My mother never ever got over Pauline dying. You know, she was full term, you know, nine months. I can't do. You know, the thing is, see, when you're young and you're told that you would have had another sister but she was stillborn, it doesn't sink in. What actually. My mother actually must have gone through carrying a baby for all those nine months and then nothing at the end of it. It must have been traumatic. But she never really showed us her pain. But it must have been terrible for her. But she never did get over it, mind. She always. Whenever people said, how many children do you have? And she always counted. Pauline, you know, and actually in 20, my brother, my eldest brother died. Lynn. Oh, he was. He was so proud. He was, you know, he was wonderful. And he wasn't ready to go. He was enjoying his life, you know, he loved life, he loved his kids, he loved his grandkids, and he just died in his sleep. I'm so sorry. I know it was awful. Shock, Awful shock. Anyway, sorry.

[A]

I'm so sorry.

[B]

Oh, well, you know, he had a wonderful life and I know he's in a good place, but it was a terrible shock.

[A]

Yes. And so you could relate, presumably, even more to what your mother must have been through. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You know, because.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

At least he's with my mother and father now and Pauline and, you know.

[A]

Will you tell me the story of the Father Christmas napkin?

[B]

Oh, right. Oh, God. Which.

[A]

I'm sorry. I read it, and it was so beautiful.

[B]

But my mother, she died of Alzheimer's, bless her. And shortly before she.

[A]

We don't have to talk about it.

[B]

I'd be all right now.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Shortly before she, you know, got really bad with Alzheimer's, she was at my house, and it was near Christmas, I suppose, because I had these placemats on the table that they had, like, a Father Christmas on them and, like, a pocket where you put the napkin in, and it was very Christmassy, you know, and she folded it up into a. All the way into, like, a little triangle. It was a linen placemat that you put over a placemat, you know, and she folded it up into, like, a little triangle, and she gave it to me in my hand, and she said, when I go, please put this in my coffin. Right. I said, mom, don't talk like that. You know, I want you to put it in my coffin. She said, because I want to give Pauline something when I get there. She said, oh, God. Anyway, so she. I did it along with us all putting little things in coffin, you know, photographs, letters, as you do, you know, but she wanted me to do that, so I did it. And I still got one. You had a tear as well. I've still got one in my house. Thank you.

[A]

I'm so sorry.

[B]

Oh, you're sh. Oh, I had the best mother in the world, though. I know we all say we got the best mother, but I did. Yeah. She was an angel.

[A]

Please do follow how to fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends this is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.

[C]

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