ON IVF… With Jessel Taank and Paloma Faith

Summary

Podcast Summary: How To Fail With Elizabeth Day
Episode: ON IVF… With Jessel Taank and Paloma Faith
Original Release: December 1, 2025

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Overview:

This episode tackles the fraught, emotionally charged, and often hidden world of IVF (in vitro fertilization) and fertility struggles. Host Elizabeth Day is joined by Real Housewives of New York star Jessel Taank and singer-songwriter Paloma Faith for raw, honest conversations about their personal experiences with infertility, IVF, miscarriage, social expectations of motherhood, and the impact of these challenges on career, relationships, and identity. The episode provides comfort and solidarity to anyone experiencing fertility issues, while challenging stigmas and breaking open uncomfortable but crucial topics about womanhood and failure.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Social Conditioning, Maternal Identity, and Ambition

Guest: Jessel Taank | 04:43–08:58

• Jessel shares that she never saw herself as maternal, feeling societal pressure to have children after marriage despite her strong career ambitions:
  • "As women…you are expected to bear children…It is almost forced upon us." (Jessel, 04:53)
• The decision to try for children was mainly influenced by her husband's desires:
  • "We did delay it as much as we could…I wanted to travel…But there came time where I knew my husband really wanted kids." (Jessel, 05:30)
• She describes how years of unsuccessful conception subsumed her ambitions and led to a loss of self, frustration, and a feeling of career limbo.
• The IVF journey was isolating; she chose not to share with family to avoid stigma and gossip.

2. The Psychological Toll and Language of Failure

Host & Guest: Elizabeth Day, Jessel Taank | 06:47–15:28

• Elizabeth connects, explaining how IVF feels like "taking on another job"—one fraught with uncertainty and lacking a merit-based outcome:
  • "You are doing all of the work, and sometimes the results just aren't fair." (Elizabeth, 06:47)
• Day highlights the damaging language in fertility medicine:
  • "Medical language around fertility for women is often the language of failure. You have an incompetent cervix, inhospitable womb, failing to respond to medication…that really worms its way inside your psyche." (Elizabeth, 07:31)
• Both women discuss personal and cultural taboos that amplify the shame and sense of failure around infertility.

3. The Impact on Relationships

Jessel Taank | 09:15–10:36, 18:09–22:10

• Jessel candidly describes projecting her frustration onto her husband Pavit, who became a “punching bag” during their $100,000-plus fertility journey.
  • "Financially, it took a toll…that's a down payment on a house." (Jessel, 09:26)
  • "I blamed him a lot. It wasn't his fault…because he was the only person in this with me." (Jessel, 09:15)
• She describes relationship doubts during this period:
  • "Is this a sign where I should be doing something completely different…Should I just, like, end this right now and just be a successful entrepreneur and do it on my own?" (Jessel, 10:16)
• Upon successful IVF and the birth of twins, they faced another adjustment, with Pavit taking on the primary caregiver role.

4. The Reality and Aftermath of IVF Success

Jessel Taank | 12:47–17:42

• Jessel got pregnant after five rounds of IVF and transferring two embryos against medical advice (14:08–14:22). Her reaction was a mix of relief and startling reality:
  • "The feeling of getting pregnant at that time was just like, wow…I was so excited…And then I had them, and I was like, oh crap, they're here to stay." (Jessel, 14:10)
• She describes motherhood’s intensity using a vivid metaphor:
  • "Having twins is…like you buy tickets to a rave and you want to go to the rave, but then when you're at the rave, you just can't leave. You're constantly dancing to the music, and it's very intense." (Jessel, 16:46)
• Jessel admits she's "not maternal," emphasizing her wish to maintain ambition and identity beyond motherhood:
  • "I have my kids, and I'm so grateful…but I don't want my life to revolve around the fact that I am a mother…And coming to terms with that was really tough." (Jessel, 15:28)
• Her husband’s support is crucial: "Pavit…has really almost taken that role of being the mother and the father while I'm pursuing what I'm doing." (Jessel, 16:10)

5. The Invisible Burdens: Body Image, Intimacy, PTSD

Elizabeth Day, Jessel Taank | 18:09–21:06

• IVF’s physical and emotional side effects led Jessel to feel disconnected from herself and Pavit:
  • "You feel bloated, you feel…you just don’t feel like yourself…I felt desperate, and I had to combat this thing." (Jessel, 19:30–20:34)
• Intimacy became mechanical, damaging their connection:
  • "The intimacy really took a deep dive…when I have the kids, I just needed to focus on me and not my marriage in a way." (Jessel, 18:09)
• Elizabeth shares that only after her twelve-year journey ended did she recognize the toll on her body and identity, and how weight training restored a sense of self.

6. The Partner’s Trauma and Unspoken Suffering

Jessel Taank | 21:25–22:41

• Jessel reflects on her husband’s silent struggles and the tendency to overlook the partner's burden:
  • "The focus was on me and my trauma…I didn’t talk about Pavit and what he went through…people sort of dismiss the husband." (Jessel, 21:25)
• She resolves no longer to justify her relationship to others.

7. Paloma Faith’s Story: Loss, Medical Trauma, and Mental Health

Paloma Faith, Elizabeth Day | 23:24–32:44

• Paloma details a tumultuous experience:
  • Ectopic pregnancy (damaging a fallopian tube)
  • Emergency Caesarean after protracted labor (“seven hours sleep in seven days”), leading to postpartum psychosis and unrecognized depression.
  • The relentless pursuit for a second child through multiple failed transfers and one more egg retrieval.
• The isolation of infertility:
  • "No one really knows it’s happening. It’s quite a lonely thing…even if you’ve got a partner, you’re still alone in it." (Paloma, 23:26)
• Paloma reflects on her own “obsessive” focus during IVF:
  • "A woman doing IVF becomes almost like in this trance-like state…You don't even consider what might be lost…you're just about having these babies." (Paloma, 27:41)
• She only realized afterward that her depression had affected her relationship:
  • "I was probably depressed for a couple of years without realizing…It's only when it passes that I realized that I had been mentally unwell." (Paloma, 26:49)
• She questions if medication or more open discussion might have changed her relationship’s outcome.

8. The Myth of “Natural” Motherhood and Social Pressures

Paloma Faith, Elizabeth Day | 30:22–32:46

• Paloma calls out the social narrative that motherhood is both a biological “duty” and the most fulfilling thing a woman can do:
  • "We’re groomed to think that's our job…that’s the most fulfilling thing you can do as a woman. That's not true." (Paloma, 31:08)
  • She openly admits she draws fulfillment from other sources and sometimes misses spontaneity.
• Elizabeth echoes the way medicine blames and marginalizes women through its language, and both decry terms like “geriatric mother," "failed transfer," "incompetent cervix," and "inhospitable womb.”

9. Lightness, Humor, and Moving Forward

Paloma Faith | 34:01–36:11

• Paloma brings her signature wit in describing her two daughters (“yin and yang”) and predicts how their personalities will play out in her old age:
  • "I'm not a princess. I'm the queen of darkness," (Paloma’s daughter, 34:41)
• The episode ends on a note of ongoing self-discovery, humor, acceptance, and finding fulfillment in multiple aspects of life.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On career and IVF:
  • "When I think about my successes, it was always surrounding my career…when it wasn't happening…I was like, maybe this isn't meant to be." (Jessel, 05:15)
• On failure and stigma:
  • "The language [in fertility medicine]…is often the language of failure." (Elizabeth, 07:31)
• On ambition and motherhood:
  • "I have my kids, and I'm so grateful…But I don't want my life to revolve around the fact that I am a mother…Coming to terms with that was really tough." (Jessel, 15:28)
• On being child-free:
  • "I am truly at peace with the fact that I won't have a biological child in this lifetime." (Elizabeth, 11:53)
• On “maternal” expectations:
  • "Even when you've got kids, you're made to feel guilty if you don't think that your kids are the most fulfilling thing in your life." (Paloma, 31:31)
• On society's narratives:
  • "We've all arrived at this point in history where we're like…I’m trying to get my career going, and then it means that we're having children later…and my mum's always like, your body wouldn't cope with it.” (Paloma, 31:40)

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Significant Timestamps

• 04:43: Jessel begins her story—social pressure vs. ambition
• 09:02: The strain of secrecy and relationship impact
• 12:47/14:08: Jessel describes successful IVF and twin pregnancy
• 16:46: Jessel’s rave metaphor for twin motherhood
• 18:09: Jessel discusses IVF’s toll on intimacy and self-image
• 23:24: Paloma describes her failures—ectopic pregnancy, mental health
• 26:49: Unrecognized depression post-childbirth (Paloma)
• 31:08: Paloma on being “groomed” to see motherhood as the primary fulfillment for women
• 34:41: Paloma’s daughter declares herself “queen of darkness”—comic highlight

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Tone and Language

The language throughout is deeply personal, authentic, and unguarded, weaving humor and healing into difficult revelations. Both Elizabeth Day and her guests move between laughter, tears, and moments of insight—seeking not just catharsis but also solidarity for listeners facing similar challenges.

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Conclusion

This episode of "How To Fail" is an essential listen for anyone grappling with infertility, IVF, miscarriage, or the intersection of motherhood and ambition. By diving into private pain with candor, vulnerability, and wit, Elizabeth, Jessel, and Paloma challenge stigma and reshape the narrative of success, failure, and fulfillment for women—and for all those touched by infertility and parenthood.

Transcript

[Elizabeth Day]

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[Jonathan Van Ness]

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[Elizabeth Day]

To this week's episode, reflecting on some of the best bits from the how to Fail archive. This week we're taking a look at an extremely important and personally resonant for Me topic, and that is ivf. I'm someone who herself has gone through several unsuccessful rounds of fertility treatment, and I'm really passionate about making the conversation as open as it can be to destigmatise it, because a lot of us carry misplaced shame. Jaisal Tank is a key cast member in the Real Housewives of New York. And when she came on how to Fail earlier this year, she talked so openly and honestly about her three year struggle to become a mum of twins. She talked about how she took her frustration out on her husband, how it took a toll on them financially, and how during her five rounds of ivf, she questioned her whole relationship and whether she even wanted to be a mother in the first place. She then talks about the euphoria of finding out that she was pregnant and also the reality of having twins. Paloma Faith also went through IVF and she speaks about the isolation she experienced. She also talks about an ectopic pregnancy, postpartum psychosis, and depression and the other experiences she went through after her first baby. She now has two daughters, and you might have heard that she recently announced she's pregnant with her third. Congratulations to Paloma. As someone who has walked some of this journey myself, I really do hope that this episode brings a little comfort, whether you're going through it personally or, you know, someone who is first up. Then here's Jessel Tank. Okay, let's get on to your second failure, which is your failure to balance motherhood with personal ambition. I'm so, so happy that you're going to talk about this, Jaisal. I really am. And when I knew you were coming on the podcast and I asked you for your failures, I was hoping that you'd bring something around motherhood up because you won't remember this, but I watched you the first season of Real Housewives. We didn't know each other, but you spoke openly so profoundly and movingly about iv, and I have also been through that unsuccessfully. But I felt so seen in what you were saying and you expressed yourself with such eloquence and sensitivity for those of us who understand it. And I DM'd you because I'm so grateful and you got back to me. So that was very nice of you. But that's why I'm really happy that we get a chance to talk about it in more depth. So tell me why you chose this, Fabian.

[Jaisal Tank]

It's a big part of, I think, who I am today. I still struggle with it growing up when people would ask me, and I'm sure a lot of women get asked this question, how many kids do you want? And it's such a simple question. And I would always laugh and say, oh, I don't want kids. I would love a dog. I think as women you are expected to bear children and that is the role right like, it's. As soon as you get married, it's like, when are you having kids? Or, you know, it's just something that is almost, like, forced upon us. The truth is, I was never maternal or I never felt maternal. I was always very ambitious, and I always. When I think about my successes, it was always surrounding my career. So when I did get married, I always felt like the next step in the process was to have kids. And, you know, we did delay it as much as we could. I wanted to travel and really experience, you know, the world as much as I could. But there came time where I knew my husband really wanted kids. And so when we started trying and it wasn't happening, I was really, you know, I was like, wow. Like, maybe this isn't meant to be. But then it took a whole other turn for me because motherhood became really, really hard, or trying to be, you know, a mother became really stressful, and it just kind of took a dive from there. I think I almost became really frustrated. I became almost a shell of myself because I was then putting all this energy into trying to have kids, and I put almost my career on the back burner. And I think I was mentally checking out because I was like, okay, here we are. We're, like, in the thick of it. It took me three years to have kids, and I was like, those three years, I could have really focused on other things, you know?

[Elizabeth Day]

Yeah. I think when you go through ivf, I mean, I was very ignorant and naive when I first started doing ivf, and I did not realize that it's essentially like taking on a whole other job. And if you already have a job, and not only if you have a job, but if you are someone, as you are, who is used to applying yourself and getting the results, it's very difficult then to be pitched into this world of uncertainty and ambiguity where you are doing all of the work, and sometimes the results just aren't fair. They're not happening for you.

[Jaisal Tank]

Did you feel like you were failing?

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes.

[Jaisal Tank]

So did I.

[Elizabeth Day]

100%. It's actually a large part of the reason why I launched this podcast. Yeah. And I think. And I don't know if you relate to this, but part of the reason I felt I was failing was the social conditioning that you're talking about, the idea that it's our biological imperative as women. But also I felt failed by my own body, and I felt that the medical language around fertility for women is often the language of failure. The phrases that often male clinicians use are the phrases of Failure. So you have an incompetent cervix or an inhospitable womb, or you're failing to respond to medication, and that just really worms its way inside your psyche. And I don't know if you had that experience, too.

[Jaisal Tank]

Yeah, very much. I think, you know, it is very much a social taboo to, like, or a cultural taboo even, to not be able to have kids at the blink of an eye, you know, and it took the fun. It sucked the fun out of it for me. Like, then at that point, being a mother wasn't gonna be fun. Cause I already went through so much. And, you know, again, you are put in this little bucket of, like, oh, well, you know, here you go. It's something that you're gonna have to deal with. It's gonna be such a struggle for you to get pregnant. And it's a big reason why I wasn't so open and honest about what I was going through. Because I didn't want people to look at me in that way as a failure and gossip and talk about how I wasn't able to have kids.

[Elizabeth Day]

Because you didn't tell your family, it was really just you and Pavit going.

[Jaisal Tank]

Through it, Just the two of you? Yeah, and a few friends who I chose to tell.

[Elizabeth Day]

And can you take us back to what impact that had on your relationship at the time that you were going through it and you weren't sure whether you could get pregnant?

[Jaisal Tank]

Yeah, I think I blamed him a lot. It wasn't his fault, but because he was the only person that was, you know, in this with me, I took a lot of frustration out on him.

[Elizabeth Day]

And.

[Jaisal Tank]

And I think that he handled it like a pro. Like, he handles most things, but he was really my punching bag through the. Through the entire process. Financially, it took a toll on us. I mean, what were we, like, 100 grand, maybe 150 grand in at this point, with no, like, feasible light at the end of the tunnel. Like, that's a down payment on a house, you know, it was. It took a. It was a very, very tough time for us in our relationship. I just remember one night, I got the results of my third egg retrieval, and it was the same, you know, song and dance. Like, nothing was viable. And I just remember, like, thinking, am I even supposed to be where I am right now? Like, is this a sign where I should be doing something completely different? Like, should I even be married? Should I just, like, end this right now and just be, you know, a successful entrepreneur and do it on my own? Like, those were the thoughts that were going through my head because you just don't, like, if something's not working and it's hard and you're, like, roughing it out. You're like, is this a sign that this is not my destiny?

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes. I totally relate to that. Yeah. And do you mind asking how many rounds you had to do?

[Jaisal Tank]

Yeah, I did five in the end.

[Elizabeth Day]

You're so strong.

[Jaisal Tank]

How many did you do?

[Elizabeth Day]

I did two. So I did. This is a whole other podcast, but I was married before and I did two rounds in that marriage, and those two rounds were unsuccessful, but also highlighted that I wanted it more than he did.

[Paloma Faith]

Right.

[Elizabeth Day]

And then I got pregnant naturally and had a miscarriage at three months. And that was devastating. And ultimately the end of our marriage for various other reasons. It was kind of the catalyst.

[Jaisal Tank]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

And then I was 36, being like, oh, well, now what do I do? Do I concentrate on trying to find a fulfilling relationship or do I try and get pregnant? And so I froze my eggs. Very disappointing results. All of that. Failed to respond to the drugs. And then I met my now husband on a dating app and we got pregnant naturally just after my 41st birthday, had another miscarriage. But then that showed us how much we wanted it. And so then I did various procedures and we ended up having another miscarriage. And then I did egg donation, and then that didn't work either.

[Jaisal Tank]

Oh, my God.

[Elizabeth Day]

So it was a lot. It was attritional, and it was over a 12 year process.

[Jaisal Tank]

Oh, my goodness.

[Elizabeth Day]

And I can talk about it now without crying because I am truly at peace with the fact that I won't have a biological child in this lifetime. And it got to the stage for me where I did feel like, why am I pushing against this unforgiving obstacle so much when actually I'm so grateful for the relationship I have and I'm surrounded by children in other ways, and I'm lucky that I have a fulfilling career. And so for me, I decided to let it go. And that was two years ago.

[Jaisal Tank]

And that takes immense amount of strength. I mean, I. Kudos to you because I think that to come to terms with something like that is so gut wrenching.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yeah. I mean, it was hard.

[Jaisal Tank]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

I had an amazing psychic reading that really helped. I'll tell you about that later.

[Jaisal Tank]

Those psychics, they know what to do and what to say at the right time.

[Elizabeth Day]

The good ones are great.

[Jaisal Tank]

The good ones are great. Wow.

[Elizabeth Day]

So you did five rounds.

[Jaisal Tank]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

And then you got pregnant on your fifth round. The sixth.

[Jaisal Tank]

So I Did five rounds, and then I did a. I'd never had a transfer before because we didn't have the viable embryos. So round five, I think I had the viable embryos at that point. I did a transfer, and. And I begged my doctor to put two in because it wasn't because I wanted twins. And the cute twin thing, like, I was just like, if this doesn't work, I need a backup. I need insurance in there. So I signed a waiver. He was like, this is not great. You know, we don't recommend you do two at one time. But I signed a waiver, and of course, those two little suckers stuck. And I was like, oh, crap. Well, here we go. We're having two at one time. But the feeling of, you know, after, like, this whole debacle, the feeling of getting pregnant at that time was just like, wow. Like, I was just so grateful. I was so excited to tell everyone. And then I had them, and I was like, oh, crap. Like, they're there to stay. Like, now I have to really. It sounds so. I mean, don't. Don't. Don't call me out on this. But, like, you know, it's like the excitement. It's like almost like, you know, when you're. You would get engaged, and then you, like, you're so excited for the wedding, and then the wedding happens, and then you're like, okay, what now? Yes, that's how.

[Elizabeth Day]

What's the next thing to focus on? What's the next thing?

[Jaisal Tank]

So I was, like, pregnant. I was excited, and we told everyone, and, like, there was all of this hype. And then I had the kids, and I was just like, oh, crap. Like, it was almost like this moment where I was like, well, this is it. I have kids now.

[Elizabeth Day]

Well, I also imagine that when you go through lots of fertility treatment and then you end up having the baby, is there part of you that feels like, I am not allowed to complain because I wanted this so much and I put us through so much. And I think sometimes women struggle with that because obviously you are allowed to say, it's really tough, but there's probably part of you that feels like you're letting yourself down by admitting that.

[Jaisal Tank]

Yeah, absolutely. And it's funny because puppets, like, they are really expensive kids. You better appreciate them in every which way. And I do, of course. But again, going back to, are you maternal? I don't think I am still, which is such a weird thing to say, but I just am not.

[Elizabeth Day]

I love hearing you say that. That's going to help so many women who are listening to this, honestly. And I think it's probably a far more common feeling than people imagine. Because what you're saying is, I don't think I'm maternal. It's not saying that you don't love your kids or that you're not an amazing mother, which you are. So are you. What do you mean when you say you're not maternal in that?

[Jaisal Tank]

I have my kids, and I'm so grateful, and they're amazing, but I don't want my life to revolve around the fact that I am a mother. I think it's one element of my life, and I hope that I'm doing a good job, and I wake up every day, and I hope that I'm raising them in the best way I can. But I have so many other ambitions that take priority. Not priority, but, like, take. You know, are the same level of priority, I would say. And coming to terms with that was really tough. Cause I think, again, because you're a mom, you're supposed to feel like that's kind of like the thing that you focus on. Pavit, being the person he is, has really almost taken that, like, role of being the mother and the father while I'm doing this, while I'm pursuing what I'm doing. And I'm so grateful for him because he's just. He wakes up in the morning, he gives them breakfast, he'll take them to school. I'll do work stuff. It's like he really is taking on this incredible role of the main sort of parent, in a way.

[Elizabeth Day]

Do you feel guilt?

[Jaisal Tank]

No, I don't.

[Elizabeth Day]

That's so great.

[Jaisal Tank]

I don't, because I think I give them enough. But I also don't want to shrivel up and die and not pursue what I set out to pursue.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yeah, you said this amazing thing. I just want to find the quote because it's so funny. And apartment it was about how having twins. Okay. The way I like to describe it, you said is you buy tickets to a rave and you want to go to the rave, but then when you're at the rave, you just can't leave. You're constantly dancing to the music, and it's very intense.

[Jaisal Tank]

How good is that quote?

[Paloma Faith]

So good.

[Jaisal Tank]

By the way. I love a good rave.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yeah. Well, how are you? How old are the twins now?

[Jaisal Tank]

I'm three and a half.

[Elizabeth Day]

And how is it? How are you doing?

[Paloma Faith]

Hard.

[Jaisal Tank]

It's so hard. Like, now they're, like, mimicking. They're, like, mocking me. Like, they repeat What I say in my, like, accent and just like, oh, my God. They're like little monsters. I don't have family in New York and so I can't, you know, I think a lot of people are able to give their kids to their parents for a weekend or to, you know, we don't have that structure here, so it's double as hard.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yeah, I can sense that. Yeah, you're doing a great job. You and Pavitt are both doing a great job.

[Jaisal Tank]

Thank you.

[Elizabeth Day]

Now, for anyone who hasn't seen your first series, the Real Housewives of New York, you opened up again in a very courageous way about the knock on effect that fertility treatment had on how you felt about your body and your intimacy with Pavitt.

[Paloma Faith]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

Would you mind just speaking a bit about that for anyone who hasn't seen that? Cause I think it's so powerful.

[Jaisal Tank]

Yeah, no, thank you for asking. That IVF is so isolating. I think that a lot of women who haven't been through it can't really understand what it means to go through, you know, months of drugs and hormones, and it just very much like, sucks my sort of identity in a way, as I was going through it, you know, you feel bloated and you feel. You just don't feel like yourself. Imagine going through your period every month, for instance, and it's just like this constant. You just feel gross. Right. That's how I felt for three years almost. For me, trying to get pregnant, it took a. It took a different path because I was almost putting all this pressure on him. And it became work that when you're trying to get pregnant, you know, it's like you have a schedule. And I was like, let's go. And he. I don't think he enjoyed it either. So I think the intimacy really took a deep dive during those years of trying to get pregnant. And then when I have the kids, I also, you know, I had a cesarean. I. I just needed to focus on me and not my marriage in a way. I know that sounds selfish, but.

[Elizabeth Day]

No, it doesn't. It sounds wise, actually. Like you have to do that. You have to put your own oxygen mask on for before you can help the others a little bit.

[Jaisal Tank]

I really wanted to snap back and do all the things, but it just took a long time for me. I did have ptsd, to be honest, because I think I equated having sex to that, you know, the motions of trying to get pregnant. And it did take a bit of a toll on our relationship. He was, again, Pavitt is like can do no wrong. He's, like, so patient and really didn't pressure any of it, but I knew that it was something I needed to step back into.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yeah. It's so interesting you say that at the end of these 12 years of fertility treatment, it was only once I was out of it that I understood the impact it had had on my body and how I felt about it. And I have recently got into weight training, and it's been transformational for me for that reason, because I feel I'm back in my body, and I feel really strong and good about it, and that was denied me. And I'm sure you, for all of those years that you were going through.

[Jaisal Tank]

It, because you can't control how you look, and you're not even focused on that. Do you know what I mean? It's like you can't focus on feeling good because you're just pumping yourself with just. It's almost like desperation. Right. Like, I felt desperate, and I felt like I had to combat this thing. And you put everything sort of aside, like I said, my career, how I looked, how I felt about myself, my relationship. All of those things took sort of a backseat.

[Elizabeth Day]

I'm so glad you're on the other side of it. Although I know that there is a third embryo on ice, a girl that you are very keen to have and that Pavitt is more cautious about.

[Jaisal Tank]

Yeah. Financially, I think it's, like, traumatizing for him. I would love to have a third child, but, you know, I want to make sure that he's on the same page.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yeah.

[Jaisal Tank]

And I think a lot of this season that you just saw was us trying to sort of, like, come to terms with what that looks like. And to be honest, I don't think he wants another kid. Like, I think for him, I'm going to say this. Like, I think a lot of the focus was on me and my trauma. I didn't talk about Pavitt and what he went through, and I think a lot of people sort of dismiss the husband in these scenarios. He went through a lot.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yeah.

[Jaisal Tank]

I mean, he was dealing with my, like, nonsense. He was paying for all the treatments. And, you know, I know that that was, like, hurting him, and I'm sure it was really tough on him. But I never asked, you know, we never talked about it because I was so selfish in that moment. I was like, I can't get pregnant. You know, And I'm sure that it was very hard for her.

[Elizabeth Day]

I love how you go to bat for Pavitt and, like, how you do for each other, actually. I think you've got a really beautiful relationship. And I know it's come under some scrutiny, but I just see two people who really love each other and who are interdependent rather than codependent.

[Jaisal Tank]

Oh.

[Elizabeth Day]

Which I love.

[Jaisal Tank]

Yeah. Thank you for saying that. Because it's like, I feel like I'm constantly having to justify our relationship, and I'm really done with it. Like, I'm not stepping up and gonna, you know, justify anything that I don't feel like I need to anymore.

[Elizabeth Day]

Preach. And your second failure is your failure to conceive your kids naturally. So you had IVF and also your failure to have a natural birth. And the reason I'm so pleased that you're talking about this is because I also went through several rounds of fertility treatment, had recurrent miscarriages and don't have children. And I'm at peace with that now. It's been a long journey, but I'm at peace with it. And that's why I'm really grateful to have this conversation with you, that you still feel this failure even though you have your daughters. So please tell me about your journey.

[Paloma Faith]

First of all. Sorry.

[Elizabeth Day]

Thank you.

[Paloma Faith]

Because it's so harrowing doing it. And then, like. No. And it's always in the background. No one really knows it's happening.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yeah.

[Paloma Faith]

And it's quite a lonely thing, I think, to do. Even if you've got a partner, you're still alone in it, because it's all on you, isn't it?

[Elizabeth Day]

Very, very isolating.

[Paloma Faith]

So what happened with me was I always thought or felt that quite fertile. And I had had a situation when I was very young where I sort of looked at penis and became pregnant. So I just thought I was, like, on high alert my whole life about not conceiving after that. And then we had some issues. We knew quite quick. I knew quite quickly there was problems because I'm a bit witchy anyway. And I just thought there was something. And then found out that what actually happened was the beginning of our fertility treatment. It was because it was on his side that there was fertility problems. But thanks to modern science and the patriarchy, it still falls on the woman. No funding research has been done to allow the man who's got fertility problems to take any sort of physical responsibility for that. It's the same process as if it was my issue. It began like that, and then I then had an ectopic pregnancy with the first.

[Elizabeth Day]

I'm sorry, one.

[Paloma Faith]

And then. So then you, like. Then my fertility starts Going because I've had one tube damaged. So then it's like every other month. And then. Anyway, so the second time did work. So I was lucky because I actually had two viable pregnancies, even though one was ectopic quite quickly. And then the birth was really difficult. It was, like, actually unbearable. And the kind of long version is in my book, but it started off with proms, which is called premature rupture of membranes, where you're sort of in labor. And that was only six months pregnant. I think I've written it down. Yeah. And so I was leaking, and they were like, you're gonna have to induce. We're gonna have a premature baby. And I just kind of, like, was really defiant that I didn't want to do that. And I basically had bed rest, and I was just drinking 4 liters of water a day. And I kept her in for a month, just laying down to kind of replenish the lost waters. And then eventually, the birth itself went terribly wrong. And lots of things, like, we all have this idea that we're gonna have this natural birth and it's all gonna be perfect. And I'm Mother Nature. And, like, even I've written about this in my book. They tell you that you put the baby on you and it finds its way to the breast. Absolute nonsense. I don't know who came up with that, but it's rubbish. It doesn't. They just lay there looking at you, crying. And then it all just went a bit wrong. And after 21 hours of labor and, like, a lot of kind of stuff, and no sleep for a week, I had seven hours sleep in seven days. I had an emergency Caesarean, which also caused me later on fertility problems as well. And then a bit of postpartum psychosis because of lack of sleep. So I, like, was hallucinating. It was all just awful.

[Elizabeth Day]

That's so traumatic.

[Paloma Faith]

I was probably depressed for a couple of years without realizing, because the weird thing about depression is that I didn't realize was that you don't. Or any mental illness is when it's legitimate mental illness, you're very unaware the fact you've got it. And it's only when it passes that I realized that I had been mentally unwell. And so I think that took its toll on my relationship, which this album's about. And then, like, later, you know, I wanted a second child. And then I had three failed transfers. Like, one more egg collection, three failed transfers. And then the fourth one worked. And then I was just so kind of headstrong. About it in a way, how like, a woman doing IVF becomes almost like in this trance, like, state of, like, that's what I want. And a lot of stuff by the wayside, like your emotional life, your relationship, because you're just so like, focused on this thing in quite an obsessive way. You don't even, like, consider what might be lost or a woman's identity becoming a mother or anything. You're just about having these babies anyway, eventually I've been very fortunate and grateful that I've. I had the second one, but even then, it's only recently because that child's now too, and she. I didn't realize that I'd been quite depressed even after that and actually wonder. I always think, like, would my relationship have broken down if I'd have medicated? Like, this stuff doesn't get talked about enough. I feel like maybe it was all because of it.

[Elizabeth Day]

You said that you're a bit witchy. I imagine you believe in some sort of universal power. Do you think it had to be this way in that respect? Like, how do you feel now being a mother, given everything that you went through and what you had to deal with and the pain you had to suffer along the way and what was lost, as well as the enormous fortune that you have, these two beautiful daughters. But how does that feel?

[Paloma Faith]

I just wonder whether it's a mindset. Like, I see people who have careers and lives where they want stuff and it sort of just happens. My manager, who's been my manager since the beginning of my career, called and he was like, yeah, but it wouldn't be you if it was easy, would it? And then he said that and I was like, oh, my God, you're right. Actually, like, it's always. Whatever's happened, it's been difficult. And I think that goes for a lot of people. But sometimes from the outside, you look at the. The world and you think, oh, like, I know people who said, oh, we're going to start trying for a baby, and three weeks later they're pregnant. Or people who sit in interviews in the music business and say, yeah, we just wrote this song in 10 minutes and it's a global smash. You're just like, ah, how does that happen to you?

[Elizabeth Day]

But you know what, though? The beauty for you, for Paloma, Faith and for the rest of us is in those difficulties, because what you're doing every single time you're surmounting a challenge is you're becoming wiser and stronger.

[Paloma Faith]

Yeah. And also, like, those cases are usually in reality A bit of a minority. Like, I'm sure you know from your podcast that most successful people have had way more failures than they've had successes. And only people only ever focus on their successes. They never focus on the million times that they failed before that.

[Elizabeth Day]

Can we just clip that? Have that as the social media clip, the official blurb? Precisely that. But I just want to return to the fact that you've chosen this as one of your failures. I can relate to it, but I think some people will be listening, thinking. But it's not your failure if you didn't manage to conceive naturally.

[Paloma Faith]

No, you're right. It's to do with social pressure, isn't it? It's to do with how we're raising our girls, how we're raising women from childhood. As like, this is one of your purposes in life is you were born to do this and you were born to further the human race. No pressure. But now, because of feminism, this is one of my things is like, this abandoned us is like. But you also need to, like, have your independence. You need to have your career. And, you know, we've all arrived at this point in history where we're like, well, trying to get my career going and then it means that we're having children later and then we're not really being able to kind of foresee these issues early enough to be able to. Time runs away from us, doesn't it? It's like, now I'm 42 and I think, oh, I'd love another child. But I've kind of thought I probably won't be able to now, not with all. And my mum's always like, your body wouldn't cope with it. But I think, yeah, it's exactly. That is to do with, like, this idea that we are groomed to think that's our job and that that's our kind of. That's the most fulfilling thing you can do as a woman. That's not true. Even when you've got kids, you're made to feel a bit guilty if you don't think that your kids are the most fulfilling thing in your life. I do get a lot of fulfillment from other parts of life. It doesn't mean that I don't love my children or I'm neglecting them. I remember saying something to my mum, even about sacrifice when it comes to parenthood. Like, all the sacrifices you make for yourself. Well, I wouldn't look at it as a sacrifice. Having a child is not a sacrifice. And it's like, you're not even allowed to think that you might go, well, sometimes I do quite miss spontaneity, sorry to admit, but I do sort of miss being able to go, right, I'm getting on a plane tomorrow and I'm going to go and just be at this thing that might help my career or whatever motivates you. Or just see this natural phenomena or whatever it is.

[Elizabeth Day]

Go see a volcano.

[Paloma Faith]

Yeah, exactly.

[Elizabeth Day]

And we're allowed to be many different things that are sometimes complementary and sometimes contradictory. And the patriarchy does all genders a disservice. It traps us all. And you alluded to this, but that idea that the medical establishment has. Has not funded a lot of research into how to make things easier for women in many respects, and certainly my experience going through ivf. And I know it's changed a lot now, but I was made to feel like a failure because of the language used by medical professionals.

[Paloma Faith]

Geriatric mother. Yes, I get that. Or like, this transfer's failed.

[Elizabeth Day]

Exactly. You fail to produce enough eggs.

[Paloma Faith]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

Your cervix is incompetent.

[Paloma Faith]

Yeah, it's not. I heard one that was something like, it's not a viable. Yeah, no, but something about the environment of my. Of my interim.

[Elizabeth Day]

Inhospitable.

[Paloma Faith]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

Thanks.

[Paloma Faith]

I was very welcoming, I felt.

[Elizabeth Day]

I'm sure you have a lovely, warm, generous womb and I would love to book a room there. High thread count sheets. Can you just tell us what your daughters are like as characters?

[Paloma Faith]

Yin and yang. So the older one is super bright on a sort of emotional comedic level because she's only seven. People don't understand that. She's just got really deadpan humor and quite often thinks she's just like a bit of a rude child, but she's not because she sort of winks at me afterwards. She's just so hilarious and it's like a big of an old soul and she's like this dark person. So there's a great anecdote that I've got from recently. We went on holiday and the. The way she's very, like, feminist. The. The waiter, like, pulled out a chair and went, this is for you, princess. And she went, I am not a princess. I'm the queen of darkness.

[Elizabeth Day]

I'm obsessed with her.

[Paloma Faith]

So she's kind of like a bit of a hero. And then the other one is like, where she. This one who's like kind of intelligent, stimulating, lateral thinking and a bit cynical. The flip. Sometimes she's lacking a bit on the kind of like, cuddles and the cuteness and so the little one's got all of that in bucket loads. And everywhere we go, people are just like, oh my God, I've never met a more cute child. Like, she's just like this sort of. She's like a Japanese cartoon character. She's just so cute. Big eyes, smiles at everyone and makes everyone feel so special. And I know what the future looks like. The future looks like the older one is going to look after me in old age and like, despise me and say I was irritating and annoying, but be there every day, like wiping my bum when I'm in continent. And then the young one's going to be somewhere, sorry, mother, I'm just in Thailand. They need me here. Everyone loves me. Just like giving her love. And I'll be like, oh, she called to the older one and be like, she gets all the credit. I'm so uplifted because she rang me once in six months. And the older one will be like.

[Elizabeth Day]

I hate you, mother.

[Paloma Faith]

I'm here every day.

[Elizabeth Day]

Oh, that's genius.

[Paloma Faith]

That's it. That's the future.

[Elizabeth Day]

Please do follow how to fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends this is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.

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