ON PERSPECTIVE… With Adeel Akhtar and Pat Cummins

Summary

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How To Fail With Elizabeth Day

Episode: ON PERSPECTIVE… With Adeel Akhtar and Pat Cummins

Date: December 8, 2025

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Episode Overview

This reflective episode of How To Fail With Elizabeth Day delves into the concept of perspective—exploring how even the world’s most accomplished individuals struggle to maintain it. Through candid conversations with actor Adeel Akhtar and cricketing legend Pat Cummins, the podcast examines how significant life events, including parenthood and loss, reshape priorities and alter the meaning of success and failure. Both guests discuss their journeys toward keeping a balanced view on career, emotion, and relationships.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Adeel Akhtar: The Evolution of Perspective

[03:12 – 07:02]

• Early Career and Overthinking

  • Adeel shares how, as a younger actor, he became obsessed with minuscule details about his characters to the point of anxiety, investing disproportionate energy into aspects like what kind of sandwiches his character would eat.

    “My failing perspective when I was a lot younger would be like, right, all the research, how does he walk? What's his shoes? Does he like prawn sandwiches? ... With age, you could sort of be a bit more economic with your energy and how you invest in things and stuff.”
    (Adeel Akhtar, 03:16–04:02)

• Mental Health and Self-Perception

  • Touching on his experience with depression during his late twenties and early thirties, Adeel identifies the incongruity between self-perception and external performance as a root cause for his anxiety. With maturity, he found it easier to just be himself.

    “There's a sort of incongruity between how you see yourself and how you're trying to present yourself to the world. And now I'm just sort of caught up with the fact of not having to perform any other part of myself that isn't weird and complicated.”
    (Adeel Akhtar, 04:37–05:18)

• Parenthood and ‘Emperor Narcissism’

  • Adeel describes how raising children, and encountering the concept of ‘Emperor Narcissism’ (the developmental stage where children see themselves as the center of the universe), deepened his understanding of emotional needs.

    “My kids have just taught me to sort of go further and deeper in that journey, really.”
    (Adeel Akhtar, 06:31–07:02)

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2. Pat Cummins: Loss, Presence, and Family

[07:02 – 12:10]

• Loss of his Mother and Maintaining Perspective

  • Pat explores the impact of losing his mother to breast cancer, how it reframed his approach to both family and career, and the tension between professional obligations and personal grief.

    “I felt that tussle as well. I think of just wanting to be a son, but... half me wanted to continue to keep playing, but the other half just wanted to be a son lying at the foot of the bed.”
    (Pat Cummins, 07:28–08:45)

• The Power of Parental Protection

  • Reflecting on his childhood, Pat discusses how his parents shielded him and his siblings from the severity of their mother’s illness—a gesture he recognizes as a profound act of parental love.

    “You don't realize till afterwards, when you're a parent and you're an adult, just the severity of it. ...They knew this day was going to come, whereas I probably, all of us kids probably hadn't fully grasped that.”
    (Pat Cummins, 09:04–09:48)

• Time, Priorities, and Presence

  • The loss of his mother sharpened his understanding of what matters, changing his approach from deferring family time for career ambitions to prioritizing meaningful moments right now.

    “I've definitely changed my mindset now. It's like, no, I'm going to live life, you know, say a big emphatic yes to things that we want to really do as a family... When we're on tour, let's make sure we have the time of our lives.”
    (Pat Cummins, 10:40–11:22)

• Continuing Bonds and Leadership Lessons from Mum

  • Pat recalls how he feels his mother's presence on the cricket field and highlights her ongoing legacy through the community groups and leadership she modeled.

    “She'd go and feed the charity on Wednesday. You'd never hear a bad word said about Mum. She was amazing.”
    (Pat Cummins, 11:38–12:05)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Adeel Akhtar on Over-Investing Energy:

  “With age, you could sort of be a bit more economic with your energy and how you invest in things and stuff.”
  (03:59)

• Adeel Akhtar on Authenticity:

  “Now I'm just sort of caught up with the fact of not having to perform any other part of myself that isn't weird and complicated.”
  (05:08)

• Pat Cummins on His Mother's Legacy:

  "She set up like a play group for, you know, the community and all us kind of kids ... Did everything you could imagine."
  (11:38–12:05)

• Pat Cummins on Priority Shifts:

  “I've definitely changed my mindset now. It's like, no, I'm going to live life, you know, say a big emphatic yes to things that we want to really do as a family.”
  (10:40)

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Timestamps for Significant Segments

• [03:12] – Adeel Akhtar discusses his former struggle to keep things in perspective
• [04:02] – Insights on how age and experience shift energy investment
• [04:37] – Depression, authenticity, and emotional incongruence
• [05:39] – ‘Emperor Narcissism’ and the perspective shift from parenthood
• [07:28] – Pat Cummins recounts losing his mother while on tour
• [09:10] – The protective role of parents during his mother’s illness
• [10:40] – How bereavement redefined Pat's priorities and approach to life
• [11:22] – Pat on the continuing influence of his mother and lessons in leadership

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Tone & Language

Elizabeth Day leads the conversation with empathy and gentle curiosity, while both guests are frank, self-aware, and reflective—blending humor, grief, and wisdom. The episode offers listeners a nuanced exploration of vulnerability, family, and personal growth, all through the honest articulation of “failures” that ultimately shape us for the better.

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Transcript

[A]

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Welcome back to this week's episode, reflecting on some of the best bits from the how to Fail archive. This week we're taking a look at how keeping perspective is sometimes easier said than done, and even some of the most successful people, including actors and athletes, struggle with it too. First off, actor Adil Akhtar talks about his past self failing to keep things in perspective, but how becoming a parent helped him to do just that. And he finally cracked it. Cricketing legend Pat Cummings discusses how losing his beloved mum brought perspective on sport and how when he's on tour now, he doesn't just want to be looking.

[B]

At the clock, but instead really endeavours.

[A]

To be present in the moment. First up, we hear from Adeel.

[B]

Your final failure is your failure to put things in perspective.

[C]

Oh, yeah. Yes, I suppose in the sense that there's some things that take a lot of thought and there's other things that you don't need to think about that much. I suppose that's what I mean. And the benefit of age maybe means that you can be a bit discerning as to what those things are like. Definitely with my career I go, okay, there's a character, I can see it and I understand where that lies in me and how I'm going to play it. My failing perspective when I was a lot younger would be like, right, all the research, how does he walk? What's his shoes? Does he like prawn sandwiches? Which is a real thing. People sort of like, what sandwich does he. So to be with age, you could sort of be a bit, bit more economic with your energy and how you invest in things and stuff.

[B]

Do you think you have a tendency to depression?

[C]

Oh, very good question. I think I did when I was in that sort of chunk of time, maybe in my late 20s, early 30s. I definitely, looking back on that now, I would say I wasn't totally happy, but as of late, like, I wouldn't. I've never ever felt that level of despair. And I think it's because of this ability to.

Just be myself, you know, I think the through line with all this now I'm thinking about it is the moments that you feel that anxiety or the moments you feel the depression, the moments you feel those really intense feelings of whatever emotions they are, there's a sort of incongruity between how you see yourself and how you're trying to present yourself to the world. And now I'm just sort of caught up with the fact of not having to perform any other part of myself that isn't weird and complicated.

[B]

You know, given your experiences of your childhood and your quest to embody the truth of yourself, that essential truth. How has having your own children.

Changed your perspective? Has it made you more or less anxious, do you think?

[C]

Somebody told me this sort of psycholog, this sort of child development stage from 0 to 5 and it's called Emperor Narcissism.

[B]

Have you heard of it?

[C]

Yes, it's wicked, isn't it?

[B]

My best friend's a therapist. That's the only Reason I've heard that.

[C]

I love it because it suddenly makes sense of your role as a parent, where this, like, little emperor is running around and you're like, I'm so sorry. And, like, you're apologizing way more than you. Like, he's really, really terrifying. I see you in a good mood today. I love that, you know, and if I didn't have kids, I wouldn't be able to conceptualize what that is. And basically what that is is we need to feel the center of somebody's world. But then when I look in the world and I see that not happening, and there's an incongruity with people. There was something there, you know, something happened where you weren't. You didn't feel like you were the center of things. Whether it's through our writing or whether it's through doing this or whether it's through our acting or whatever, whatever else, you just want to go, oh, I hope I'm making a little bit of a step in that direction. For people who never did, There's a place, again, like that thing I'm saying, like a placeholder for really complicated feelings. My kids have just taught me to sort of go further and deeper in that journey, really.

[B]

There's another element to this failure, which is incredibly sad. And I want to preface this by saying I'm so sorry for your loss. And if at any point you don't want to talk about this, please tell me. And it's about losing your beloved mum. And you were on tour in India in 2023 when this was happening. Could you tell us about that?

[D]

Yeah, you know, of course. You know, I think that's the other layer as well, to kind of the end of 2021 and Alby being born was. We knew Mum didn't have very long. It was probably months more than years. You know, every time I was going away on a tour, I knew that was time that was, you know, finite. And it was time that I could have been spending with Mum, you know, really, really challenging. I was over in India playing in a test series when kind of Mum went into palliative care. So I flew. Flew out to India, knowing that I was going to be back on a plane a week or two later, kind of flying back to. To be with Mum. Obviously. I think, you know, Mum and Dad were really strong on me going. They derived so much joy from sitting together, watching me play cricket on TV and representing Australia. So they were adamant that I should go. I think. I think the other layer to it, as well, was, you know, they, you know, Mum particularly was super private person. Dad is as well. They don't want any fuss ever. And the nature of my role is, you know, if I'm starting to miss cricket, it kind of becomes public pretty quickly. So I felt that tussle as well. I think of just wanting to be a son, but, yeah, it was kind of half me that wanted to continue to keep playing, but the other half just wanted to be a sun lying at the foot of the bed.

[B]

Your mum was diagnosed with cancer, was it breast cancer?

[D]

Breast cancer, yeah.

[B]

And how many years ago was that?

[D]

So Mum first got diagnosed in, I think it was about 2005. I was in year seven and then the last kind of four or five where it was. Yeah, knew that it was going to be terminal.

[B]

So all of your teenage years were played out against this backdrop of your mum's illness?

[D]

I think Mum, dad tried to protect it from us. So I remember I was 13 years old and yeah, Mum and dad kind of sat us children down and was like, oh, mum's going to be sick for a little while, she's going to get some treatment, but it's only going to be, you know, six months and then she'll be back to her normal health. So I was like, oh, I'll take your word for it, whatever, no worries, you know. Yeah, you don't realize till afterwards, when you're a parent and you're an adult, just the severity of it. Yeah, once I was kind of back into my 20s, it came back and yeah, you started to realize that. No, they'd kind of. They knew this day was going to come, whereas I probably, all of us kids probably hadn't fully grasped that that.

[B]

Was such an act of parental love, that shielding and protection. You said that you wanted to be a son and lie at the foot of the bed. Did you get a chance to do that?

[D]

Yeah, no. So I flew back and had about 10 days in the Pallidiv hospital with Mum, dad and, you know, all my siblings. It was a really magical 10 days. Like we shared a lifetime full of memories and stories and lots of laughter, tears, but a really special, just family time, really. I'm so glad I went home. I'd be ruining that for the rest of my life if I didn't.

[B]

Sometimes I speak to people who have witnessed or supported someone through the dying process and they say that it teaches them so much about life and how to live life. Has it changed the way that you live your life?

[D]

100%. Probably comes down to the Time management, I'm like, so crystal clear now and, like, you know, family's priority. You just can't keep kicking things down the road. You know, a lot of sports people, but, you know, maybe me in particular, you think, okay, I'll play cricket till I'm 35, 36. Albie will be 6 years old and then life will start and then we can start hanging out as a family. I've definitely changed my mindset now. It's like, no, I'm going to live life, you know, say a big emphatic yes to things that we want to really do as a family. Know, when we're on tour, let's make sure we have the time of our lives. Because when we're on tour, we're away from our families where we don't want, just want to watch the clock kind of tick by, bring the families along. Just trying to live life a little bit more.

[B]

Do you feel your mum with you when you're on the pitch?

[D]

Yeah, every day. You know, I think particularly since becoming a father as well. You remember the lessons that kind of she passed down to us kids.

[B]

What was her name?

[D]

Maria.

[B]

And what was she like?

[D]

Did everything you could imagine. So when we were, you know, really young children, she set up like a play playgroup for, you know, the community and all us kind of kids. When we got a little bit older, she created like a social group for us teenagers to hang out. And then kind of once we moved out, she, she started setting up some disability netball teams. She'd go and feed the charity on Wednesday. She's never hear a bad word said about Mum. She was amazing.

[B]

It sounds like you learned so much about leadership from her as well as love.

[D]

Totally, yeah, 100%. It's, you know, that's always been instilled in us kids is I guess how lucky we are and not to waste that.

[A]

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[E]

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